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So last night was the first night she spent the night elsewhere in anger.  She was at my SiL's, less than half a mile away.

I was at work all day today and saw she was home when I got back.

She's in solid silent treatment mode. Not even answering when I offer her tea.

Like I give a damn now that she's withdrawing affection.

Ouch. I remember that.  It was really hard for me when she withdrew. Glad you're holding on to some of that anger. The right sort can help me keep things clear in my mind.

That may have sounded like I'm angry, but I'm really not.

I'm realising that she's used up all her cards. She can't take something away from me that she hasn't been giving me for 4 and a half years. I'm beginning to let go of the idea that anything I do could make her be nice to me.  It's her choice and I'll live with it!

She broke the silent treatment when I said goodnight to her. She simply said "I'm going to the supermarket tomorrow, leave me money please".

Wow, Dragon72, it sounds like emotions got REALLY high this time. I'm sorry.

It didn't sound like you were angry, but it DOES sound like you're experiencing some pain and frustration. Maybe even like you've reached your limits. This isn't necessarily a bad spot! When we've reached our limits is the time that change can start to occur.

It's likely the ST will end (in a more productive way, I mean - saying "leave me money" is coming from a very hurt emotional place - doens't count  )

Have you thought about what you'll say when the ST ends? Have you considered letting the ST ride for a little while, and refrain from an active effort to end it? Don't think too much about what SHE will say, just think about your own feelings, what you really want to see change or be different this time.

Hi Dragon 72

The ST sucks I know, its been a long feature of my r/s and probably the one that winds me up the most ... .if I let it. I am now taking a different approach of letting it ride - as DB77 says try refraining from an active effort to end it.

Instead I am just getting on with my life, I am having to keep pushing the 'mental override switch' on my default position of trying to engage.

Morning all,

I'm sad for you all that you have to experience similar ST that I experience most of the time over the last 18m (and on and off for the last 20yrs). ST is the most insidious form of dealing with feelings and there has been significant discussions on the boards about it's cause, reasoning and impacts on the victim.

Like others I am trying to find a more healthy way of dealing with ST rather than allowing it to bother me. Rather than make it my problem, allowing it to anger and frustrate me I am trying to find ways to rationalise the irrational and soothe myself rather than any attempt to break the ST. In the past I have mistakenly broken the ST with anger and rage demanding that she tell me what her problem was and seek resolution. This made me feel better for sure, but not sure it was very productive for the long term health of our relationship (evidenced by the fact she now accuses me of being abusive and wants a divorce). I'm not in her head and really struggle to rationalise it but guess ST could be for one of the reasons below:

- numbing-out emotionally
- actual or desired emotional indifference to me (similar to above)
- contempt for me (but this contempt wavers and is unstable hence ST is not consistent)
- she is wrapped up in her own thoughts, ruminating about something... .not necessarily associated with me.
- she feels shame and guilt ( there seems to be a high correlation between her meeting up with her OM... .sorry, special male friend... .and pushing me away)
- she is trying to generate an action with a feeling... .the action is motivation to get a divorce, so if she generates the feeling of contempt and hate towards me it can increase her will to produce action... .much like a boxer will speak words of hate and aggression to his competitor before a fight, It's pretty hard to punch someone with all your might when you make him out to be your best mate.

I know I haven't done anything wrong so I know it's not anything I have done. Although it's uncomfortable I have to leave her to do her maladapted ways as my instinctive reaction gets her what she wants... .justification and victimhood.

My coping mechanisms:

- Leave if I can
- Loud music or some background noise
- Loud voices in my head telling me "this is not your making and do not react"
- Focus communication elsewhere, kids, friends, work colleagues (not Facebook or Twitter, these are false illusion worlds)
- Do some sport/exercise
- Smile through it
- Serve up exactly the opposite to what she would expect the natural reaction to be. "I'm not affected by this, you live in your sorry silent world, I choose not to."
- Fish to see if the ST is cooling but never push it and try to withdraw before they cut you off, leave them wanting more communication.
- Switch anger to amusement

My wife gets something from ST, I'm still trying to get to the bottom of what that something is, but my feeling is that it's REACTION... .I'm choosing to give it a RESPONSE instead.

Love you all xx

Realize that you are a "test pilot" now.  Going places that your relationship has never gone before.  Be bold... .hold you standards high... .

I'm heartened that you understand she is out of cards... .now is NOT the time to back off... .a "nudge" in the right direction or even a shove is needed and appropriate for the relationship.

Understanding that it may appear you guys go 4 or 5 steps in the right direction... .and take a few back... .which is why I suggest "shoving"... .because if you go 2 forward... and 2 back (where are you)... .but 5 forward and 2 back is... .(fill in blank)

Now... for wisdom.  What does shoving look like?



At the risk of invalidating you... .I would ask you to reflect on this.

Should you be angry... . I think you should.  Granted... .I would advise you to be careful how you express it.

The "BPD brain blender" can scramble our brains and emotions.  Seriously.  

Your wife took your kid and stayed away all night... .and you're not mad?   red-flag   red-flag

 red-flag   red-flag   red-flag


Hey man... .this is us.  Also... it's you.  Be honest.  And you likely are being honest... .and likely aren't mad.

Which again leads to the question... .should you be?  I suggest you should be...

Thoughts?


Can you expand on this.

He said she said.  You are redefining how money will be used in your relationship.    It's important to get this right for YOU and for the relationship.

Understanding she may not agree.

Hang in there man.  Now is the time to focus... .stay calm... .stay above the fray.  

You can do this!   |iiii

FF

Can you quickly summarize the conversations you have had... .I know with ST there likely isn't much.

What I'm hunting is how you know where she stayed?    How did you react to that... .how did she react to that.

Any other conversations or communication?

FF

I hope I didn't cause offense, Dragon72. I was only referring to the strength of "like I give a damn". For me, that came from feelings I didn't realize I had, or, perhaps, feelings I'd let myself forget how to feel. I hear the painful part.

Wellwellwell, you didn't cause me any offense in the slightest.  Really.  I can see and understand how you interpreted what I said as you did, and I just wanted to clarify, that's all.

I knew where she was staying the night because I asked my BiL, at whose house I thought she was, and he told me that she was with their sister. We all live in the same neighborhood.

ff, you're right, a natural reaction would be to be angry, and maybe I should be, but I think I have arrived at a sort of radical acceptance about what sort of person she is, the fact that she has been programmed from a young age to act the way she does and that there's little I can do to control her behavior.

Right... there is little you can do.  So... .you should be you.  Stop walking on eggshells... hmmmm... .that phrase seems oddly familiar.

Since it doesn't matter... .be yourself.  Don't suppress your natural and reasonable emotional reaction to events... .even if those events are done by a dysfunctional person.

YOU will feel much better.  She will be the same... because... .it doesn't matter what you do... right?

Clarity... .:  I'm not saying be unwise about how you express anger.  Different subject.

FF

Update:
So on Monday evening she asked me for more money for a supermarket run and so I left a reasonable amount for her, on top of the cash I had left for her after she "gave back" all the household funds I had given her on payday.

When I got back from work on Tuesday evening, she asked for more, so that she could always have an amount in her purse for emergencies.
I replied, "So what happened to the money I left you besides the money for the supermarket trip?"
"I spent that on a trip to the doctor," she said.
"Are you okay?"
"It was a dietician. I need to lose weight," was her answer.

She is not obese, just has some love handles that will go with a bit of exercise and eating less birthday cake at childrens' birthday parties.  And yet, in the knowledge that our funds are very tight at the moment, she's squandering nearly 10% of our cash reserves on a quack.  I couldn't believe it.

I told her that this was unacceptable, she gave me an hour or so of ST, then, without saying anything, walked out of the house, leaving me to feed and put our son to bed.  She came back at about 9pm and went straight to bed without a word.

I did leave some money for her purse, because she didn't have any left after her trips to the dietician and the supermarket and I do feel she needs emergency cash. I can't leave her with nothing. So I left her some.

 
So... .you are at a big picture place.

She lied her ass off to you... .and I don't see that it was addressed.

This is EXACTLY the behavior that led me (very slowly in my case... .sadly) to cut financial ties with my wife.

You "made a deal" with your wife... .she broke it.

Should you make deals with people that don't honor them... .or show any remorse, contrition or sorrow?  (read this several times)

How much did you leave her for emergency cash?  Why can't you leave her with nothing?

What is an emergency? 

If a true emergency happened... .does she have other people that could help... .in a true emergency?

Seriously... .why can't you leave her with nothing?  I'm not suggesting you leave her with nothing... .but your statement caught my eye.

FF

Has she lied? I can't see what about.
I'm going to talk local currency:
When she left me for those 24 hours, she left all the cash we had (that I had given her on payday): 7,000 Mexican pesos (which is to last us until the end of the month).
I took 6,000.
From that 6K left her 1,000 because I feel she needs a bit of cash for incidental expenses for the family.
She then asked for money to go to the supermarket.  Now our average supermarket bill is approx 1,500 pesos, so I gave her and extra 1,000 thinking that that, plus the 1,000 from the day before, should leave her about 500 pesos (US$25 or so) for her purse.
She did go to the supermarket and spent about 1,000 pesos.
Then, after that, when she asked for "purse money", I asked what happened to the other 1,000 pesos and she told me about the diet doctor who cost just under 1,000.

I don't think she lied or broke any deals with me.  It was my fault, however, not specifying what the money should be used for.

I don't think I can leave her with zero money.  I'm not talking big emergencies, which can be solved with a phone call, but for small purchases and things that unexpectedly need to be bought. I think it's reasonable to allow her at least a little bit to pay for little things that come up like parking, a cup of coffee, gasoline etc.  So I gave her 500 pesos.

Out of interest, does she accuse you of being abusive (and likely tell the world so) if you try and address these issues? I’m inferring from my own experience but in a similar way that if you restrain a child or guide them to the naughty step they scream claims of “owwwwwwwww you’re hurting me!”. Does this make you fear her reaction and what she may scream owwwwww to other people.

- I will give you enough money for essential food and other essentials we can afford... .he controls money nd restricts finances, I am entitled to money and he is abusive for not allowing me to provide for my needs.
- please stop walking out the house not telling me where you are going... .he is restricting my movements, he is controlling and abusive. I am entitled to free movement
- you said that you would clean the house and you haven’t, why? ... .I am forced to be a domestic servant, I am unappreciated and he does not consider how busy my life is, the house is clean enough and I have other busy things to do, he is abusive.

Just some examples of reasonable things you might have agreed or stated as fact but she has translated as abusive and inappropriate abuse. I sense there is a gun to your head where nothing reasonable is actions because any request is seen as abuse or unreasonable and therefore warrants a reaction from her.

To you, financially isolating her will just serve to feed the already embedded sense of abuse. It’s always in the top 10 of abusers tactics (financially controlling and controlling your activities), hell its talked about enough on the boards. But the point is, one is reasonable and the other is not, but she determines what is reasonable by her emotional reaction, rather than the facts.

So... she said... "I need money to go to quack doctor." You left her that amount?  What did I miss?

She needed money for supermarket... .so she said... .you trusted her... .did she show herself trustworthy... .or betray your trust.

If you betray someone's trust... .what are the normal and logical consequences of that?

FF

Dude...

Then... redefine the deals.  Own zero responsibility for her dysfunction.  Let her connect the dots... .not you.

Let her own her betrayal.

She had purse money... you don't need to replenish it.  Let her experience her choices.

Seriously... .if a kid looses their shoes.  And you keep replacing them... .chances they will be careful?

If a kid looses his shoes... and you let him walk on gravel... .chances they will pay attention more?

That's human nature... .don't save her from that.

FF

Right... .how long do you expect that to last her?  IN your mind... not hers.

FF

Enabler - it's like you've been reading my diary.  Yes, she paints me as an abuser of her human rights whenever I even question something unreasonable that she has done.  But that's a classic narcissist tactic isn't it? Always counterattack to pin the shame on the other person.  I am sure that she badmouths me as a tyrant to her siblings too.  But that's something I have no control over. I just have to keep remembering the truth of the situation.  I have had a history of believing her when she has portrayed my boundary setting as an act of cruelty.

I have no idea how long her purse money should last for, but now I am going to ask for solid reasons if she asks for more and decide more judiciously whether or not to open my wallet for her.  This money has to last until the end of the month after all - and it won't do that if she secretly squanders it on diet doctors.

Okay, more guesses:

- She does not want to get involved in the family budget, she refuses to spend the time sitting down with you to formalise how you spend your money. She actively avoids it even though you know she has the intelligence to understand a simple household budget. She will make claims of "I don't get it", "you know I'm no good at understanding these things". She actively avoids responsibility.
- There is a long running sense that she wants control (and believes you have control) and autonomy without responsibility especially with regards to money. You on the other hand believe that autonomy comes with responsibility and knowledge. You would love to be in a position where you trust your partner to make responsible financial decisions based on a full understanding of your financial position (actually doesn't need to be financial, it could be regarding the amount of time spent socialising), however she seems unwilling to pick up both sides of the equation.

Regarding the abuse claims... .I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about this and I believe that it somewhat stems from a confusion generated from a liberalised society. Modern society says "You can do whatever you like and no one should stop you doing what you like, if they do it's abuse"... .to put it crassly. This is the narrative your wife and many other people especially those with PD's have adopted because it ratifies their NEED to do whatever they like all the time to soothe their emotional distress or strong emotional compunctions. It validates their constant sense of entitlement. ** I'm wary of using the term Narcissist since I understand Narcissists feel they entitled to special treatment as they believe themselves to be better, whereas pwBPD feel they are entitled to special treatment because they are in emotional PAIN... .in fact they probably don't even consider it special treatment at all, it's what anyone would do if they felt that much pain.***. HOWEVER, what they are missing (or ignoring) from the post feminism and cultural liberalization outcomes is that we are all entitled to strive to achieve our goals under our own ability and our own resources... .WE ARE NOT ENTITLED to use other people effort and resources without their consent.

In my personal experience, friends and siblings are often the false impression that my uBPDw utilizes her own effort and resources to achieve goals and objectives, she collaborates in the household budget discussions and acts rationally based on complete information (or somehow I refuse to allow her complete information). They believe and reinforce that any restriction or criticism by me regarding her "rational choice" is a breach of her basic human rites and restriction to her liberty. You and I know that our choices are not always 100% rational and perfect but we base our choices on facts and forward expectations. Like you I believed that my restrictions were an act of cruelty in the past, HOWEVER, what was the act of cruelty was the lack of commitment to be involved in the responsibility side of the equation which ENTITLES someone to the rite to CHOICE.

I have no answers for you, I know the rock and hard place you reside in. The fear of being labelled abusive (and inability to prove yourself innocent), but the necessity to prevent her from squandering the family money. It sounds so simple and so rational... .but then that's BPD / PDs for you!

I dare you to tell her this.   

I kid! I kid! No, I really don't recommend that.  :)

Regarding the question of money - that sounds really frustrating, especially since she probably feels "deprived" if you don't give her spending cash, but she may not be responsible with it, and therefore it goes to waste.

I don't recall if you said that she works or not, but if not, then you're of course the one footing the expenses in that house. My BPD sister who is severe in her illness, lived with my parents for a while, and was constantly demanding money, and misspending it, but howling when my mother was reluctant to give her anything.

Could you try setting a boundary with your wife - something like this: She is responsible for doing the household grocery shopping, but you two agree on making the shopping list together. She's expected to stay within the list, and not buy a bunch of extra stuff. Each week (or month if that works better), she gets a fixed amount of cash which will be enough to cover the average grocery bill for your family, plus a little extra for a few incidentals for her. If she overspends and runs out of money, too bad. She doesn't get any more until the next "pay day". If she proves unable to stick to this, and for instance, spends so much on nonsense that there isn't enough food for the family, you take complete control of both the grocery list and the money, and she gets nothing. No extra money for coffee or fun things, and no cash to go to the grocery shop alone with money in hand. If she forfeits her right to be in charge of these responsibilities, then there should be a "cooling off period" where she is later given a chance to try again.

It sounds harsh, and almost like how you would teach boundaries to a child... .but my mom eventually had to implement this with my sister, though she is a grown woman. She had a massive extinction burst the first month and blew all her money and demanded more. She got nothing. The following month, she stretched her money NEARLY to the end of the month, but did not complain when she ran out with about a week to go. She toughed it out. The third month, and every month thereafter, she did well, and even started balancing her own budget on paper.

Could some version of this work for you? She gets a fixed amount, within reason, but if she squanders it, no extra.

This is where to start... and stay there for a while.  

I'm going to respectfully disagree with joint budgeting... .for now.  :)ragon72 should make sure the staples are in the house... .if his wife perceives the need for (fill in the blank) to be an emergency worthy of her money... .so be it... .let her make her choices.

Trying to do joint budgeting before establishing "reality" and "respect" is asking for trouble.

Remember... .this is not the biggest issue (keep perspective here)  she is sleeping with and using  their child for emotional support(after having been told by psychologist to stop.)

And... .if there is a money emergency... .or "life happens"... perhaps the "fixed amount" goes down or fluctuates with reality.

I get and agree with the basic premise of BasementDwellers idea, I believe it starts with a "cooling off period" and perhaps after a month or so of being ok with that (let her have extinction burst and all that)... slowly start giving her more responsibility.

Leadership 101:  It's best to start as the strict Sheriff and then loosen up... .rather than start loose and try to tighten.

Big picture:  The relationship is in flux... .it is being "reset" now... .reset it to "tight" (on money) and move forward.

FF

I see your point. I wasn't suggesting joint budgeting so much as letting her plan the grocery list with him. I don't see the harm in letting her have some say in what foods they buy, provided it's not a bunch of junk. The money would be dispensed by him. I might not be clear in what I was suggesting. Or are you saying that he handles the grocery shopping entirely himself instead of giving her money to do it? If so, I can understand why you'd suggest that, but if she is not working and he is, then it would kind of suck for him to have to do all the shopping as well. But maybe that's how it has to be if she can't be trusted to do it without mismanaging the money.


I must have missed that part of the post. Certainly that's not good. And probably a lot more challenging to address than grocery shopping and budgeting.

Yeah... that's what I'm suggesting.

I certainly would say...

"honey... .here are my thoughts on the grocery list for tomorrow.  Anything to add?"  We all know... .she will add  "yeah... you suck... .there is a pink elephant in the yard... you are abusing me... .my big toe hurts... ."(standard BPD blather)

Now... .if she does have constructive things to add... .add them.  If she asks for an extravagance or something personal... consider the budget and try to get it.  She does need to be heard... .

That being said.  :)ragon doesn't trust her with money.  She is not trustworthy with money.  That doesn't need to be soft sold at all... .especially after she just "misrepresented" (to be kind an generous) her need for money the other day... .and then blew it (yes she did go to the store... but that was only part of the story).

Totally correct that this will add to Dragon's burden... .and it will suck... and he will have less time at home... etc etc

He will need to remember when it sucks... that he is playing the long game... .and "changing the dynamic"... .and hopefully this won't last but a few months.

FF

Yes, hopefully it will work itself out soon enough. I understand he doesn't trust her with money. I thought that she was doing ok with the grocery shopping by itself, but it was the "needing extra" and then using it for a diet doctor that was the real problem. A separate problem - like she can handle doing the shopping, but it's when she's given extra on top of that, that's when she gets into trouble.

I suppose that event can be the catalyst for him to say that since she wasn't upfront about the last bit of extra money she was entrusted with, then they're going to start from scratch. She won't like it, of course... .but pwBPDs never have been fans of boundaries.

 

Hey BasementDweller  please don't take this as me saying your idea... .is "wrong".  Take this as me "strenuously" saying... .that's not a good idea... but it might work out.

Perhaps to use another analogy... .if you have had problems "driving off the cliff"... .it's not a good plan to "drive right next to the edge"...

Be deliberate about driving in the center of the road... .say NO to driving close to the edge... .even if she's been ok driving at the edge and it was other reasons that "caused" her to drive off the cliff.

Give yourself some buffer room... .she's going to be pissed anyway... so... .created a plan with MAXIMUM chance for success... .maximum safety barriers and all that.

Anyway... .there are other theories of leadership and ways of looking at it that would agree with your approach, I happen to believe (especially in this case... with other things going on) that those approaches are inferior... .but certainly not "wrong".

FF

No worries FF, I didn't take it that way at all. Everyone has their own way of dealing with things and what works for one family might not work for another. I also wasn't fully aware when I answered this post of the entire history, and much of the other things that were going on that you mentioned. If this "diet doctor" situation isn't an isolated incident, but rather part of a longstanding pattern, then I agree it's time to tighten the reigns now, and later on, maybe he can re-evaluate the situation if the trust improves.

You're right in that I think she can be trusted to do the supermarket run.  I know she doesn't make extravagant purchases there.  But I think I need to make it clear that if she wants to make a significant expense that is purely for her benefit (diet quack for example) she needs to expect me not to give her money to rescue her from the hole she dug herself.

The sleeping with him issue, I agree, is the most serious issue, but I have yet to think of a way to break that pattern of behavior.  With her feeling hard-done-by, the likelihood of joining me in my bedroom soon is not strong.

Update: 
She was still in ST-mode yesterday evening.  Or at least monosyllabic-answers-mode.  She managed three words to me yesterday:
Me: "[Son] and I are making crepes, would you like some?"
Her: "No"

Me: "[Son] and I are going to play a game of bingo. You want to join us?"
Her: "No"

Me: "Goodnight"
Her: "      "
Me: "Goodnight"
Her: with scorn on her face "Goodnight"

I chose not to react at all each time.

Update:

I got home yesterday to more silent treatment.  She was laughing and playing with our son for a while, but monosyllables with me and only when I directly addressed her.  Including when I had to go to the store to buy a small item (spending money!), and I said to her "You need me to get you anything while I'm there?". A curt "No!" was her reply.

When I went up to read our son his bedtime story, she was in bed with him reading him a story.  When I came into the room, she jumped out of bed and left the room.  I read him the story and when I was just finishing, she came back and climbed back into bed with him. 

I said good night to our son, then I said goodnight to her.  No reply.
I said goodnight again. No reply.
I said goodnight again. No reply.
Then she said, "Just go already".
"That was very rude" I replied.  "By the way, adults don't sleep with children," I added. 
"Felicidades!" (Congratulations) was her reply (bear in mind she's Mexican and we were talking in Spanish). Whatever shades of meaning that might have, the message of contempt for what I said was clear. I didn't want to start a row there and then. So I left.

Today is my last day at work then it's two weeks vacation with very little money. I have decided not to walk on eggshells for the time at home, but the thought of having such tension in the air all the time is going to be stressful.

Update:
Well my 2 week vacation has begun.

Ik got home from work and my wife served me a plate of food as she normally does. (I'd be quite happy to make myh own, by the way. I don't ask her to do it, nor expect it.) She served it wsithout saying a word, and didn't respond when I thanked her and complemented her on how tasty it was.

Silent treatment for the rest of the afternoon/evenikng and then she went to bed with our son again at the same ctime as him.  When I wished her goodnight, no response


This morning she came into "our" bedroom to get something. I wished her Good morning. No response.

Its going to be o.k.

What you have w this community, is experience, strength, and hope.

Hang in there, pause, write your thoughts in a journal, that helps me so much.  Self care for me needs to increase, in proportion to the stress I am going thru.  Do you have something regarding self care you can have today or tomorrow.  It can be simple, an hour walk for me.  A visit to a park, for me

You get where I am going.

The better i can be, the more I can deal w my life, and the things that aren't working... .

You are special, you are wonderful

j

Thanks juju for the kind words.

Update: the atmosphere at Château Dragon is still tense and dripping with latent contempt.

We're up to slightly more than monosyllables now, and she even said a frosty Goodmorning, albeit after I twice said it to her to get that response.

She tried a little test on me this morning.  As I went out as usual to do the weekly market shop, she handed me an empty bottle of makeup remover and asked me to get her a new one but in the larger 500ml size.  "Sure", I said.  I hadn't realized how expensive it would be and it has put a small but significant dent in the money that we have to live on until the payday on Friday. She did need it, and the cost of it was more than I gave her as pocket money since our bust-up, so she couldn't have bought it with "her" money. So I bought it.  Maybe I should have bought a smaller size and said, next time you pay.

So I went to the market alone (as always) in the morning, and I couldn't help noticing lots of married couples shopping together hand in hand at the market too. I have suggested to her in the past that it would be nice if we went together, but she gave me a look as if I had suggested that we clean the toilet together.  Even in the "good" periods we have, she just doesn't want to engage in that sort of intimate cooperation.  It has always made me sad.  Of course, before we said "I do" she was all over me like a rash with the public handholding.

Then, this afternoon, I asked our son what he wanted to do for fun and he said "Let's go to the park and give peanuts to the squirrels!". 
"Great idea", I replied, "Mommy, do you want to come with us?".
"No".

So we went to the park, just me and the little one, and I was thinking again how cute the Moms and Dads looked together.  My wife has come to the park with us a couple of times, but always kept her literal distance, insisting that we take it in turns to be with our son.

She just doesn't do intimacy. Never has, at least since our wedding day.  And that is something I really long for. 

I think that, if we make it through this patch where I'm setting boundaries and she's pushing back against them, she will still be an emotional cripple incapable of giving me what I believe is necessary in a marriage. That's why I'm thinking more and more about pulling the plug and getting a lawyer to do the paper work.

I have had to tell my wife twice in the last 24 hours to stop literally spoon feeding our son.  He's four and a half and she feels the need to spoon food into his mouth at mealtimes.

She's also teaching him disobedience while occasionally shouting at him for not doing as he's told.  What I mean by that is that she'll ask him to do something and then let him not do it for a long time.  The poor boy is getting the message that if he doesn't do what he's being asked to do, there's no consequence. And then he's shocked when 20 minutes later she's screaming at him for doing something he's long forgotten about. For me as a teacher, it's frustrating to watch.  And I have told her about this.

This evening I let our son watch a bit of TV and I let him change the audio to English (we live in Mexico, where the audio defaults to Spanish and our son prefers to listen in English).  But my wife (yay, she talked to me!) told me to switch it back to Spanish immediately because his teacher at school recommended Spanish language TV to try to improve his Spanish which is lagging behind his English a bit.  I didn't think of this at the time but maybe I should have said, "What do you think is more of a negative impact on his development? A bit of TV in English? Or having his mother sleeping with him in a double bed every night since he was born up to now when he's already 4 and a half?".

But going back to the intimacy thing, here I am complaining that she doesn't go to the market with me.  What's far worse is that property only about 4 or 5 times in the last 4 and a half years have we spent an evening in each other's company (she goes to bed with our son at 7.30pm, leaving me on my own), but also we haven't slept in the same room for all that time either. 
I feel so neglected.

Hey Dragon72, ignoring your own needs or wants for the moment... .Why do you think she does that? What do you think she gets out of that?

Is she protecting him?
Is he her primary emotional attachment now?
Is she tired?
Is she avoiding you?
Is she using that as an excuse to avoid sexual intimacy with you?
Is it a hangover from nursing which has just continued?

You are the one who sees/hears the cues on this.

I was going to start a new thread on odd parenting behavior but hadn't go round to it e.g. co-sleeping seems common, wiping bottoms when they are capable, literal spoon feeding, inability to enforce household rules, making unenforceable threats.

A better answer to the TV thing would be "I agree babe... .let's follow the recommendations of the professionals.  Don't you agree?"

Let her wrestle with the discomfort.  I see you approach... it's a bit direct.  Let her connect the dots.

FF

Well, we just had another big argument. Once again, triggered by money.

She asked for money to buy new clothes for our son. I asked if it could wait until Friday (payday) but she kept arguing for it until I said no, it could wait until payday, because we only have $100 or so to last until then and I want to keep some aside for emergencies.  She then said we need to fill our gas tank as it's very low. We don't have mains gas.  I agreed and left about $40 to fill it up to a decent level when the gas truck passes by this afternoon. She then complained about her being in need of money, and I explained again that we don't have very much right now.  $100 minus $40, to be precise.

She wanted to know where the money was. I said I had it and I was looking after it because, after her unnecessary trip to the diet doctor, I don't think I am confident that the money is going to be managed sensibly if I don't make the decisions.  She demanded more money for incidental purchases and I replied that she does still have the "purse" money I gave her and that if there's a real emergency, then she should let me know and we could discuss how it might be funded.  I reminded her that now we have only $60 or so to last until Friday afternoon.

She complained that her life was terrible as a SAHM with so little money for her, so I said that I'm sorry she feels that I earn too little and that the role of housewife and mother is tough.  I said that if she wants to get a job instead, I would offer all my support and we could then maybe look into getting someone to do the housework. She looked a little stuck for words, then she then started to attack me for my lack of respect for her.

I let her talk for a while, and it seems she considers me lacking in respect whenever I resist her and stick up for what I feel is right.  When she finished I said I also feel disrespected by her.  And just as I began to give examples like when she offered to loan me my own money to do the grocery run for the family, or how she has only spent the evening with me a handful of times since we got married, I thought "I'm wasting my breath here. She's dysregulating. She's never in a million years going to say "You know you're right, you have a point, I have trampled over your boundaries and have not shown you respect for all that you do for me and the family".  Anyway, when I finished my 2 cents' worth she claimed that she only does those things because I don't show her respect.  Classic Cluster B argument tactic.

I said, "This conversation isn't going anywhere. Let's talk about it later."
"Give me a date and a time!" she barked.
"OK. 8pm this evening," (knowing that that's the time she's normally in bed with the little one).
"And what if that doesn't work for me and our son?"
"Then you should make it work.  A mother should not be sleeping with a 4 and a half year old boy."
"Says who?"
"Says just about any professional involved with child psychology and welfare, including his pediatrician who has said it since he was born and his school psychologists and class teachers."
"Well they're wrong!"
"I'm leaving now. Let's talk at 8pm."
As I left, she started on a tirade that began with "Oh there you go again, run away, disrespecting me again... ."

These may be extinction bursts as I begin to assert control and stand up to her, but I really can't picture a harmonious vision of a future us.

On reflection what could you have done better?

From what you have written it sounds like you made some very good points, stood firm whilst acting pragmatically (the gas) and having the confidence to know that you were acting in an adult manner (retaining $60). You stated why you had retained the additional funds and evidenced that with her little trip to the diet clinic.

Did you identify the change of topic and metaphorical slap in the face (her insulting you) as the tantrum on the floor or is it only in hindesight?

Good to be self critical of how things could have gone better, could you have JaDED less?

Thanks Enabler

Maybe I could have JADEd less. Maybe I could have validated her sense of worry about the finances more.  But really it was about her pushing my boundaries.

I don't think I JADEd at all really. There's a fine line between explaining why you're doing something and trying to defend your actions.  I thought I kept just to the good side of that line today.

I don't think I did "identify the change of topic and metaphorical slap in the face (her insulting me) as the tantrum on the floor".  What was the insult?  What did I miss?

Thanks

Dragon72,

Remember... .you aren't going to "prevail" or "make headway" in her kind of arguments... .

Shorter... to the point... .1 issue at a time.

Anything... anything you can do to have her have less access to money is better... even if it is a pain for you.  Such as you paying gas company directly.

And... .if she asks for makeup stuff... and you realize later you can't afford it.  Own it... apologize... .let her know you will get it when it is affordable.  Just say you are sorry and move on.

Yes... .no arguments should not last long.  They should quickly move to consequence or action to support your side.

They do for her.

you say no.

she says yes

she gets in be with your son

argument over

You need to be wise and deliberate about how you alter this and shine light on the situation.

Once you start down that path... .it's going to get prickly.  Keep going.

Remember... .changing the money is NOT about the money.  It's about letter her know you have a backbone.  The money is a side benefit. 

Do you understand that?  Agree with that?
FF

I think I understand about the money part at least being really a test of backbone and it's a test that I have repeatedly failed in the past.

I also agree about the fact that arguments should be very short.  This one today dragged out too long.  When she argues, her tactic is to, deflect, project, counterattack and distract.  That tends to prolong an argument. When I tell her that the argument is drifting off topic and going nowhere and make moves to leave the field of conflict, she paints me as a coward who won't stand and fight.  Sometimes it feels more like I'm running away than showing backbone.

I'm not sure what you mean here: "You need to be wise and deliberate about how you alter this and shine light on the situation."
Are you referring to the situation of her sleeping in our son's bed?  If so, I'm still struggling to come up with ideas and options for setting boundaries and applying consequences for that.  I have been shining a light on it recently and it seems the more I do so, the more determined she seems to carry on.  The way she spoke today, it seems like she's in total denial that there's anything wrong with it.

Got back home after putting in a few hours work at the office.
No sign of wife, son. Car not here. No note/message to say where they are. No reply when I texted asking where they are.

You will get professional advice on your son.  That is above my paygrade.

Your wife needs to understand that what you say... will turn into action... and her "tactics" will no longer work.

She needs to understand that before the issue of the son comes up.  Money just happens to be the issue that has presented itself.

Next time she says you are a coward for walking away... .in your head... I want you to think she says you are a unicorn with two horns... .and pink.

It's completely nonsensical... .don't pay it any mind.

FF

I want to add on to this. My exwBPD and I were talking, and it lead to a blow up on her part. I am a huge pro-choice supporter and respect woman and their choices with their body. I respect everyone and their choices what they do in their lives, their religions etc. But I told her, I only think that once a female is 8 months pregnant she shouldn't be able to abort. Only because by that time the baby is almost fully developed and the female carrying the baby had a full 8 months for the decision. I think it would be cruel to abort last minute for the baby. Of course everyone has their own beliefs, morals, and some of you here may be pro life or pro choice. Me and her however are pro-choice and I only stated my opinion on the matter which is justifiable in my opinion and thought she would be okay with a debate. Nope.

She blew up on me. She was calling me despicable and how she could ever be with someone like me. How she didn't see the signs in me when she first me and she was disgusted in herself how I would be against woman's rights and their right to their own reproductive system. She then started telling me how ive been hanging out with my republican side of the family too much and even wrote about this on her blog. Next day it was like it never happened.