BPDFamily.com

Hello,

Following up my my posting from last week that reached the full limit. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322528.0

Well, it's been good to get some space and be away from my pwBPD. I'm definitely feeling better, but the recovery is slower than I am hoping for. I have not yet filed for divorce, but I'm feeling quite convinced that it's the right way to go seeing as we have no children. I've been checking out some dating apps and the options out there are kind of lame... .Which makes me sad.

Anyway, in my previous posting, some suggested that I don't prohibit criminal charges from being pressed. Well, yesterday I got a call from the detective assigned to my case and he said there is enough evidence to press charges for assault by unwanted contact (misdemeanor class C - get citation), and possibly for criminal mischief (destroying laptop, this would be a class A misdemeanor - get arrested). I told the detective that I need to speak with my Lawyer. I did not ask the detective if the city is going to press charges, but based on the detective's questions and willingness to allow me the option, I'm guessing the city is not pressing charges.

So today I spoke with my L and he advised that I do not go down that path (pressing charges) because not only will I not have control over the situation but it will be extra work and a head ache, especially since we do not have children. He said that it will not make a difference in the outcome of the financial settlement should we divorce. The Protective Order will give me all the advantage I need, including requesting a batterers course. However, if we had children, he advised that it would be better to go down the route of pressing charges(I didn't get into details as to why).

I thought I'd let everyone here know the status of that. I have to call the detective back and give him an answer in the next few days on whether I want to press charges or not... .Would appreciate some thoughts on this.

This friday we have the hearing for the long term status of the Protective Order. I'm going to keep everything the way it is, but relax the communication to allow email for business purposes only.

Cheers,
GY

Hmm, Greenyard, I don't know what I would do re filing charges but couldn't your lawyer use that as a bargaining tool with her lawyer to get some of your things back? Just a thought... .

I'm not surprised that your recovery is slower than you hoped. You've actually been through a lot of trauma that had been normalised over the period of your relationship. Coming out the other side and processing it all takes time (and, as I'm sure you've found, stirs up a lot of emotions).

Take the time to work through how you really feel and remember to do things that you enjoy.

Ok. Thanks for the feedback. I never filed charges, only made a police report on DV. I'll see if my lawyer can use it as a bargaining chip but my gut feeling is that I can act on it or not.

So... .a few thoughts.

I would certainly ask the L for specifics... how exactly is this going to be a headache for him? (I doubt he would be involved)

How exactly would this negatively impact your case... divorce case?

I agree... it will likely not affect your financial settlement.  There could be ethical issues with any sort of deal that basically says... you give me x amount of money and I will "drop" the criminal charges.  Potentially the same thing with regard to getting stuff back.  (I'm not certain of this... just raising awareness).

I would also agree with your L that pressing charges is critical for custody (which you don't have to worry about).  My informed guess is that custody is not as clear cut as finances... .so the more "evidence" or "reasons" you give to disqualify someone... the better.  (make sense?)  "No your honor... she can't have custody because she has been convicted of assaulting me... and damaging my stuff... .and xyz... ."

So... .here is my interpretation of what your L said.  He believes it a distraction and YOU will not benefit from it.

I generally agree.

That being said... .you seem to have a desire for your pwBPD to "get better" (batter course and all that).  The more serious they perceive their wrong... .the more the chances they will "get it".

So... .my general advice is to tell the detective you will cooperate with them going forward on charges.  It's really not your decision (IMO).  :)efacto it kinda is, because if you won't cooperate... .they won't go through with the hassle.

My only alibi is if you L has a very specific reason that this could HURT your current case (the divorce).  I doubt it... .he basically said this wouldn't HELP.  Big difference.

Last:  Are you in T... .? I forget.  Many times holding others accountable for their actions will help your recovery from abuse.  That's really a thing for you and your T to get into.

Hang in there man... .be kind to yourself!

FF

Just to be clear... .it's rare for people to "file" the charges.  I do think there are some states where you can swear things to a magistrate and they "take you at your word"... .and the charge is filed.  Many times those are dismissed quickly, especially if an L gets involved... .they can usually bust them on procedural mistakes.

Anyway... .if you have a detective saying this "meets the elements" for a crime and a charge... .you are in much better shape.

Anyway... .just thought I'd clarify.  Perhaps you are aware of special local procedures that seem different than what I've said.  Please share if you do.

FF

FF: I am in T. Been going since Oct. I am taking a break this week and the next though. Now that my wife is out of the house and away from me, I can actually do stuff and get my life in order (complete projects, exercise, cook healthy meals, see some shows, and hang out with friends). I miss her quite a bit, but I'm feeling relieved to not have any pressure.

So we have a court hearing this Friday. It's been radio silence from my wife or her L... .until this afternoon. I got a call from my L and he spoke with her L. Sounds like she too wants to avoid going to court this Friday and is seeking a "mutual" agreement. She is willing to go back to her parent's state 800 miles away, which is GREAT. Other than that, no other details are discussed.

I think she is concerned about the accusations that I've made, but it's hard to tell. The detective told me that he also called her so presumably she knows that I reported something to the police... .Anyway, her L told my L that "I tried to stab her with scissors" one time... .boy o boy, is she twisting the truth and telling lies. One time she was upset with me because my phone was locked and she couldn't see the contents (right after we had sex), so she grabbed me by my hair to force me to unlock the phone. I have long hair, and she had me hard, I mean, it was wrapped around her fist like she was hanging from a cliff. Well I got my hands on a pair of scissors and tried to cut off my hair - I couldn't do it. She deflected my attempts and I was being super careful (as one can be in this situation) to not hurt her. Anyway, after 30 or 40 minutes, she gave up and let me go and I went to work.

Sometimes I wonder if pressing charges will cause her to retaliate (via false accusations) and get me into a tangle... .

Perhaps... .but I think this will further illustrate "where she is at".  Frankly... .you know her best, her L is already ominously threatening BPDish stuff... .and all of that seems to indicate to me she wants to "get out of it" or "get a pass"... .vice "be accountable"

Did the L also say "My client accepts responsibility for her actions and wants to make your client whole.  My client wants to demonstrate her trustworthiness by (fill in the blank)."  ?

What does that say about her "getting it?"

Would you assume the police investigating her stabbing claim have advised her she has a good case?

Thoughts?

FF

I would suggest that this is exactly the time you should NOT take a break in T.  This seems like a transition time.  A time when you are deciding big things... .to press forward without guidance... well... does that seem wise?

FF

Thanks FF.

I think my BPDw just wants out and to avoid any accountability. I got another relay text message from my L, from BPD L "if I make a mutual agreement divorce will go smoothly and will likely even avoid mediation". To me this sound tempting and easy, but that also means she doesn't want to be accountable. I seriously doubt she will mutually agree to go to batterers class or attend anything that  will hold her accountable. I think I will stand firm on making her go to batterers course and see if she will accept this. If not, I will force her via court order. I really want her to be accountable and not repeat this bad behavior in the future.

Is there any difference between batterer courses? Quality, duration?

I took a break from my T because I have a super packed schedule for the next few weeks. Honestly the T makes me sad and / or angry because it stirs up a lot of mud, distracting me from work. I'm so behind at work, and new broken hardware showed up and I need to manage it's repair with laser focus. I'll pick up the sessions in a few weeks after I get past this wave. It also feels good to be immersed in work again.

OK... .you need a quick course in negotiations... .

Ask your L what is the best case he can imagine (seriously... tell him to dream wildly)... .if you go to court.

In the same conversation, instruct your L to talk to the other L and say.  "I've talked to my client, he is willing to look at your offer."

Very important to get them to go first.

Then... .present your counter offer at just above the level of his "wildest dreams".

Big picture.  There is no way to understand if going to court is "worth it" unless you have clarity about what is on the table.  Be aware... they may only get serious outside the court.  Literally on the courthouse steps...

Said another way... .your offer should scare them.  Let your L scare them... .when they reject it... .your L can say... "give me something big... .I hope I can talk my client down... ."

See the vibe?

FF

Well, from my experience in divorcing a BPD husband who was also violent--you definitely don't want to grant any concessions at the beginning of negotiations.

If the detective says you have a case, then if it were me, I'd seriously think about pursuing that. Yes, it would be a headache and time consuming. I think your attorney might be thinking that it wouldn't help you with your divorce, so why go there?

But most people don't understand BPD and how they respond to legal matters. Your wife shows no accountability for her actions by that "scissors" accusation.

You may be hoping for a peaceful resolution through the divorce. I did too. What I experienced was beyond my imagination: lies, false claims about finances, basically scorched earth territory.

I hope you've shut down any credit cards that have her name on them. I ended up paying tens of thousands of dollars of charges that he ran up after we separated.

Even after we came to a settlement, more charges unbeknownst to me popped up. My attorney advised me to just pay it because it would cost me more to fight it in court.

I'm sorry to be so negative and I hope your resolution doesn't have these kinds of bumps in the road. I had no idea how vindictive and untruthful my ex would be. It's best to be prepared for the worst and not believe them at their word, sorry to say.

Cat Familiar,

Would it be fair to say... .that instead of granting concessions... you would be better of "building consequences".

Said another way... ."being less scary"... versus "more scary"

Last question for Cat.  What do you think it is about "the way pwBPD "think" that makes your advice relevant?

FF

I like the idea of "building consequences"--something that us nons often shield our pwBPD from. In my experience, my BPDex was so charismatic that he could often charm his way out of consequences, so I don't think he really understood them. If he did experience consequences, he's often categorize them as "being unfair" or "out of the blue" rather than logical results of his behavior.

Being more "scary"--well--I think he was so used to being able to run over me, either with verbal assaults or physical assaults, that I wasn't at all a threat to him in any way. Legal threats were something different. I thought we'd be able to use a legal aid attorney and divorce amicably. However, I had brought a lot more to the marriage through being the beneficiary of my uncle's will. It allowed me to purchase the land we lived on, and where I currently reside. It wasn't enough to build a house, so we lived in a tiny trailer on the property.

I had a lawyer draw up some documents which my ex signed in my presence and afterwards he walked straight into a plate glass wall. That was the first glimpse I had of him being unnerved by me. Of course, afterwards he completely reversed his position and claimed that my inheritance was his, then he got the most "pit bull" attorney in town to represent him and went after me full bore.

Regarding the way pwBPD think: a number of things come to mind. 1. Black/white thinking: either you're on their side or you're the enemy  2. Whataboutism: she assaulted greenyard, so therefore he must have assaulted her with the scissors  3. All or nothing thinking: similar to B/W thinking--my ex was determined to get everything he could from me (I even covertly taped him saying those exact words)  4. Feeling victimized: attempting to hold them accountable seems to do that  5. Shifting elements of the "truth": in his mind what was the "truth" was what was convenient for him in the moment: i.e. feelings = facts

There's definitely more to be said about BPD thought patterns.

Solid explanation.

Many times it's helpful to "flip" the question.

We've been asking if he "should" press charges (do you see how the "default" is not pressing)

If we "flip it" and ask  "What is a good reason that charges "should not" be filed?"... .doesn't the world become more clear.

Is there a good reason here for logical and reasonable consequences from behavior to play themselves out... .without interference.


What usually happens when you interfere with a time tested process?

FF

You folks bring up very good points.

I agree there needs to be consequences. How much consequences, I don't know. That's up to the legal system, but at a minimum I would like to see her go through a batterers course.


Cat, are you saying that even if she's seeking a "peaceful" resolution, that it will still get super ugly if we go to divorce?

I did cancel her credit cards... .



FF:
I just got off the phone with my L. I will say that I suck at negotiations. Anyway, I gave a list of requirements for a mutual agreement:
- we stay separated (She can go home to her parents)
- restricted communication
- batterers course for her (MUST HAVE)
- return gun & ammo (MUST HAVE)
- return some items to the house (art, knives, clothes)
- furniture that she took stays in town (in storage)

As for your comments regarding her willing to be accountable, that was not a message conveyed from her L. Only message we got is that we both need to be separated for a while.

Do you think avoiding the hearing this friday (replacing it with a mutual agreement) is a bad idea? If we go to court, all the dirty laundry will get aired out to the judge: accusations, assault, abuse, both truth and lies... .Would it be better to get this out on the table now?
Looking down the road, divorce is most likely. I just do not feel like pulling that trigger now. I think  a mutual agreement does not weaken my position in a divorce proceeding as I wont be admitting any fault.  The abuse she committed is still on the face of the protective order, and those items will get raised... .So I think the mutual agreement will allow us to breath for a bit... . 

I certainly cannot read the Tarot cards about what's in your future and how she will behave. That said, pwBPD are notorious for not keeping their word when emotions are heightened; just ask formflier about agreements he's made with his wife. And legal matters and divorce court certainly "heighten" emotions for everyone.


Good starting points. What do you mean by "restricted communication"? And if she signs up for a batterer's course, who monitors her attendance? Also returning items to the house--does that mean that she personally does this? Danger! Danger!


Of course her lawyer isn't going to tell her to be accountable. She's probably told her lawyer all sorts of fictions about how abusive your are and who knows what else.

Can you get the hearing postponed from tomorrow so that you'll have more time to think about this? What keeps you from wanting to move forward with divorce?

I have not yet filed for divorce, but I'm feeling quite convinced that it's the right way to go seeing as we have no children. I've been checking out some dating apps and the options out there are kind of lame... .Which makes me sad.

This is from your first comment on this thread. From that, I infer that you are still holding out hope that things might somehow miraculously work out between the two of you. I seem to remember how attracted you are to her physically. That's some heavy glue that keeps us bound to people who behave abysmally.

Yes... I think it is a horrible idea.  Especially if you are going to "go with your minimum"... .

Listen man. 

If you want her back... .then definitely press charges and go to court... .hit her with everything you can.  Because that is best chance of reform.

If you are done... (and there is NOTHING in your post that hints at being done)... wash your hands and move on... .that would be express APATHY for her... .consequences... all of that...

Let me clarify something.

What is the likely outcome of court?  What is "being decided?  What is the judge being asked to "rule on"?

Pressure is your friend.  pwBPD don't respond well to pressure.

I kid you not... .if you swing for the fences... I bet she folds and gives you what you want "on the courthouse steps"... or even in a "recess".

Until the judge rules... .parties can usually settle.  Make sure she "blinks" first.  Dude... seriously... .you have all the cards... .you have a good hand.

It appears you want to slip her an ace or two (to be nice?  ?  )

FF

Thanks Cat and FF.

No communication, except via email and only for business reasons. Good points about monitoring her attendance. I'll make sure that's in there. The house items I want returned are only a few items, I'll have her hand over to lawyer.

Yes, very attracted to her physically (likewise, she is also very attracted to me). Also, her culture and preferences suit me well. So yeah, very strong glue... .I don't believe in miracles. I'm quite agnostic, more on the Buddhist side... I don't know what I'm holding out for... .inner peace I guess, a lack or pressure... .To heal first... .


I hear ya, I hear ya. I don't disagree. I'm just waffling and can't execute on a decision. I just want space for now - to be myself. I want to see the world a bit on my own. Maybe meeting someone interesting will help me decide. Right now, I just can't bare to stick with a path except for being alone and find inner healing and my own happiness... .

This is possible. Right now my lawyer is entertaining the idea of a mutual agreement without giving up anything or weakening my position. We don't have a final agreement but I expect to have a final draft in writing by tomorrow around lunch time. We'll see. Court is still possible.

Long term ruling for Protective Order terms. Which really can be done w/o going to court (via mutual agreement).

I guess I should flip the question: "what benefit is there going to court if she agrees to everything via mutual agreement (without a hearing) on the long term terms of the Protective Order? In this mutual agreement, I will not be giving up anything. What do you think I could possibly get in a court setting that I can't get in a mutual agreement?

Another question: what else should I ask for in addition to batterers course, the gun, and some things that I want? I don't even know what all my options are that are typical.

My lawyer, although experienced for 37 years, and aware of her "craziness", lies, and BPD, has been advising me to move this case along with minimal inflammatory actions (like not pressing charges) but he said he'll support me in whatever I want to do - he said "I get paid either way". I don't think my lawyer really understands BPD people in a sophisticated way, other than that they act "crazy". One argument my L gave me for not pressing charges is because we're educated folks and that criminal charges like that should be for the rest of the people at the bottom of the barrel... .Not sure I agree with this argument. I do agree that criminal charges won't help a divorce.

On my end, I guess one big reason that is holding me back from pressing charges is that the consequences are out of my control; that is, If she gets convicted, she'll lose the ability to get a hunting license (possibly for life? I think for a few years is fine). Losing it for life would really hurt her. Another reason for not pressing charges is my fear that several years down the road, she will drag me back into court, trying to get any conviction reversed and this will disrupt my future (and re-open wounds) - I've heard that these things can happen. I dunno, maybe I'm being paranoid. Based on her disrespect for the gun we owned, I don't think she should have the privilege to own one or carry one. I think it's ok though for her to be able to hunt game with a bow... .Charges will also be another "betrayal of mine" from her perspective... .But I hear you FF, I think in another posting you (or wentworth) said that I should let the chips fall where they go. Perhaps I should tell the detective that I'm impartial instead of "I want or don't want to press charges"?

So... .what is the point of being in control... .if you are not going to guide things in a healthier direction.

It seems like you are talking circles... .

Listen... .I think you are overthinking it.  The point of the criminal justice system is that victims aren't judge jury and executioner.

You are one step of  a process.  

All you really need to tell them is you are willing to cooperate... .they don't want a victim/witness that is going to fight them... .

Can you give me a clear one sentence statement of how skipping cooperating/filing charges will improve the situation?

Oh... .if you are going to do a mutual agreement, make sure you put automatic consequences in there as well...

If things are damaged (which I think there are)... .she signs to accept responsibility and culpability for that.  
She makes restitution to you.

She acknowledges that the scissor story is false... .and she will no longer use that to threaten you.

It's a sworn affidavit.

With those conditions... you will know if she is covering her ass... .or is contrite.

FF

I definitely am overthinking it.  I hear ya.

It doesn't improve the situation. It's just sweeping it under the rug to deal with another day or never.

This is something I hadn't thought about. Thank you for pointing this out - VERY GOOD POINT. Are you saying to ask for her to admit to all the things she destroyed and to admit to all the assault incidents? Or just the destruction? I know this will be very difficult to get out of her - even during our reconciliation negotiation, she wouldn't readily admit the destroyed property, and even after she admitted and "apologized", when there was a small slight against her, she said "I don't regret one moment for destroying your toys". She will see this requirement as something I can use to throw her in jail... .

Can you elaborate a bit more on the "automatic consequences"? Does that mean consequences will result if she does not complete the batterers course? Or the consequences will take effect immediately after she signs the Mutual Agreement and therefore will need to work towards restoring the damaged hardware (financially)?

I will request that she write an affidavit that the scissor story is false, and have her admit to holding me by the hair... .for 30 minutes, and that I was using the scissors to attempt to cut my long hair so I could break free.

FF, thank you for the very wise pointers. I really see where you are going. If she disagrees and just wants to cover her ass, it will be much easier for me to walk away from this relationship. If she agrees though, this will be a huge breakthrough in repair... but I have low hopes...

As part of this mutual agreement, would it be reasonable to require her get evaluated for BPD and any other issues?

Automatic consequences:

If wife comes contacts you outside of this agreed on channel... .x will happen.

Otherwise... .you go to court.  Judge... she broke the agreement.  Judge looks at her... bad girl... don't break it again... .or I will be very angry.

This way... she acknowledges up front this is serious... .she accepts consequences.

I would structure the agreement that she be evauated by a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist "rule out"  (then list some things)

That will focus the exam.

Likely best to put in there that she will complete MMPI and PAI (psych tests).

You are getting the gist of it.

Here is the thing.  If she is remorseful... .if she is accepting responsibility... .why would she NOT agree to use a story that didn't happen... that she has already had her L threaten you with?

Hmmm... .?

You will learn a lot from her response.

FF

OK, sounds like you're suggesting I that if she breaks any part of the agreement (batterer course, psych eval, contact, etc) she will be responsible for past damages?

Why psychiatrist and not a psychologist? I know the difference is in the former can prescribe meds, the latter cannot. I don't know of any other differences.

 
Umm... I think she needs to pay now for damages she has caused... .put that in there.  That's a consequence of behavior already done.

The point is not the precise consequence for violating the agreement.  The point is that the agreement says you agree to do x.  If this party does not do X... .Y is the consequence. 

So... spell it out... .vice leave it silent.

FF

I hear ya.

I requested to my L:
- automatic consequences
- statement that scissor story is untrue and that she had me by the hair instead

He thinks I'm asking too much and should be prepared for court.

Maybe I'm not explicit enough w my L. Maybe I need to be super clear to him, and have him relay the message to her L: I want her to stop lying and to take accountability for the violance and destruction she's caused.

Got a note from pwBPD Lawyer, one of the negotiation statements, in all caps said: "she will not agree to me having exclusive use of the house. She does not have a place to stay, she can only stay with her parents temporarily"

I said to my L "no way is she allowed back into the house, she hides stuff and destroys stuff and is violent. "

My L said to me: "thats why we have a hearing tomorrow"

I guess I'm going to court.


Should I ask for all of the above in the hearing?
- automatic consequences
- psych eval
- missing items
- restitution

This restitution thing may be challenging seeing as that she has no job or income, just the $20K (or whatever that is left) hidden away in a bank from a job she once had (while we were married) + the $8k she took from the joint account. The stuff she destroyed was technically "community property"... .Restitution from community property seems odd.

in addition to the bogus scissor assault story, she is accusing me of:
- raping her when she was sick
- locking her in the car
- stealing her property
- having an affair

wow, talk about confabulation and playing the victim... .

He Lawyer will not agree to batterer's course for her unless I also take it.

You are a better negotiator that you give yourself credit for.  Look at your response to the house thing.   |iiii

Listen man... .the point of giving you all those items to "stack up" is to be deliberate about asking for way more than you are doing to get... .you need some to give away.

Your job is to identify and rank what matters.

Pay attention to what  matters to her... .that's where you see "her heart"... ."how she really feels"

 This relates to pressing charges...

My "take" on her wanting you to take the "batterer" course as well is she wants to validate or "make equivalent" her behavior... and yours. 

IN other words... she will "admit to wrong" if "you admit to wrong as well".  (that kind of thinking)

We all know... it's just not the case.  Apples and oranges.

Until she changes... at a fundamental level... the way she looks at right and wrong... .you two have no chance at a future

I'm sorry to be so frank with you... .but time is limited... .this is not a place for nuance.

Your best chance for her to change her thinking... .is for her to experience consequences... and own it.

Do you understand that?  Do you agree with it?  Thoughts?

FF

You've officially entered scorched earth territory, I'm sorry to say.   

Your lawyer's initial approach was as though he was dealing with an opposing party who wasn't mentally ill. That's clearly not the case. Those countercharges against you show her intent and be prepared for ugliness tomorrow.

A side note: lawyers in divorce proceedings are very used to hearing this sort of thing from their clients and the opposing parties. Your attorney is in your corner, but he may not be spending much time considering whose account is true; he's just doing his job defending your interests. It seems that an ethical attorney would not delve into this matter much, rather they'd try to expedite the issue and minimize your costs.

I thought my divorce would be simple until my ex and his pitbull attorney came at me with all sorts of unfounded allegations and put me on the defensive. At a certain point, it became obvious to my attorney that I was rational and my ex was not. He said something like, "You've claimed he was a bad guy and now I'm really seeing it."

The reason I'm telling you this is that I think you need to spend a half hour really airing all her dirty laundry to him and letting him know that she's mentally ill. Opposing attorneys often do speak with each other and her attorney might already have come to the same conclusion. I think it's an important factor in negotiation: if one person is playing by the rules and the other is bending/breaking the rules due to sociopathy or mental illness, then you're not on an even playing ground.

Well, we have an interesting twist to the plot... .

My attorney is definitely on my side and agrees that she is crazy. I have aired out all the dirty laundry, and played audio for him. There's no doubt that he knows she is crazy. My lawyer said that her lawyer thinks she's abnormal also, and thinks she isn't telling the truth (her lawyer's words to my lawyer, I read the email).

My lawyer primarily does family law, for 37 years. Her lawyer is young and only practiced for 10 years... .her lawyer is already making procedural errors. I wish she had a more experienced lawyer. but anyway... .

Anyway, I spent the day with my lawyer crafting up an agreement and also prepped for the hearing. We felt pretty good about that. I left his office around 4pm.

Just now (530pm) my lawyer told me that she is filing for divorce... .and is requesting that I drop the PO and replace it with a TRO (with same content) as part of the divorce suit. The story is that she is concerned about a PO being something on her record long term (even if I dismiss it at some time in the near future) that could potentially affect her negatively in getting a job that requires a security clearance. If I do this (drop PO, and allow a TRO in place), she would allow the divorce to go smoothly (possibly agreeing on splitting assets just via our lawyers and not going through mediation).

The way I see it, she deserves consequences for her actions in being violent and abusive, and now that we are getting divorced, she is ruining our finances (that I worked so hard to accumulate while she sat on her butt)... .but on the other hand, I don't really want a scorched earth (costs me more money, big amounts, possibly in the 6 figures), it seems like I have the power to avoid that... .Any thoughts on this? Maybe delay the PO hearing that's scheduled tomorrow? I do want to get it over with, but don't want to hurt her record permanently (my lawyer does not know if the PO is something that can be completely removed from her record in the event she needs to get a secret clearance)... .

I hope formflier weighs in on this. You might send him a DM.

So my first read of your post is that she wants you to give away your leverage in hopes that she might cooperate regarding a smooth and easy divorce.

DANGER DANGER DANGER

She also wants you to waive any sort of consequences by having a TRO so that it won't damage her future employment.

Other people seem to think she's crazy too. Is this the sort of person that should even have a "secret clearance"?

My thought is that she completely lacks remorse over what she's done to you, judging by her previous accusations. And that she wants you to attend Batterers classes!

Maybe I'm not the forgiving type after having lived with an extremely abusive ex for so many years, but it looks like a "give em an inch and they'll take a yard" kinda deal with her. Frankly, I wouldn't trust that she would keep her word.

I think you have to hold all the cards you can. Don't give away your Aces just because she hasn't any. I think you'll need the best hand you can play because she's shown herself already not to be trustworthy.

I did more homework on the protective order. Even if at some future time I motion the court to drop it, it will be on her record and will be difficult to expunge. A PO will prevent her from working at schools, hospitals, no working with children, and in some states, she wont be able to get a hunting licences.

So she has genuine concern, and she knows that I'll sink her in court. I have a full house and I'm not going to give up my aces.

In light of her new desire to divorce, and plea for leniency, I think I can leverage this to my advantage. I don't think I'm going to say anything how I'm going to do this on here in case she is on this site... .I will PM you Cat and FF.

Greenyard, I'm glad FF and Cat are giving you such good advice. Listen carefully to what Cat is saying.

Your wife is changing the rules by the day, based on her feelings in the moment and her need to avoid any responsibility for what she has done.

You sound like a nice guy who's still trying to protect her.

Be prepared for her to not only try to take your house but to burn it to the ground. That's BPD.

Personally I would be sticking to the plan you and your lawyer have worked out... .in court today and PO as the consequence.

Divorce negotiations will come next and I doubt she'll show any kindness. I'm really sorry it's come to this.

Since my last posting, I'm already getting more threats from her lawyer that she'll take everything I'm worth including the kitchen sink and that it will be UGLY unless I drop the PO... .I may postpone it just to get some breathing room now that I see their concerns (and "mother bear" aggression).

Yes, she definitely lacks remorse and is playing the victim. I may not be perfect, but she's distorting the truth and fabricating big lies.

My story... .my spouse had been increasingly critical of me, ranting and raging more frequently.  Well, one day she seemed particularly angry.  I kept my voice recorder handy.  She declared she would kill me.  I stepped away and dialed 911.  I only had time to state "family dispute" before she grabbed the handset, hung up, threatened me again and threw the phone in my direction.  It hit the wall and broke.  Police arrived and they talked to both of us.  Well, both talked to her, one talked to me.  One officer asked me to pass our quietly sobbing preschooler to her and "step away".  He shrieked and clung tighter to me.  Only later did I conclude my son 'saved' me from a ride in the back of a police cruiser and perhaps time in jail.  Later I downloaded the recording and another officer came out.  Partway through the recording he was ready to stop and make his report for me to sign.  He emphasized to me not to back away from my report.  He said if I did I'd regret it.

I did not cave and her case went on from continuance to continuance.  She refused ADA's settlement offer with just Anger Management class.  Four months later at the trial she admitted making threats but the judge ruled her Not Guilty of "imminent" Threat of DV by applying case law.  A few years later she had it expunged.

That's my story.  I had a preschooler.  I couldn't just walk away.  I had another 15 years ahead parenting our child.

Your situation, no children... .Frankly, that's the difference between your case and mine.  You can walk away.  Please listen to the collective wisdom expressed here.  You can't afford to be the Nice Guy or else she will walk all over you and trounce you badly.  I'm serious, the legal threats have already been made.

You want her to learn from this, that she can't do this any more.  Maybe she will, anything can happen.  But it would be more likely for me to spit across the Grand Canyon and it make it to the other side.  Okay, that's hyperbole, but that's my point.  She is highly unlikely to respond positively.  The old story, You can drag a horse (mule?) to water but you can't make it drink.

That said, you need to contain the situation and look out for your own interests (and self-preservation) first.  I didn't read exactly what she did to get arrested or charges filed.  I don't much care.  The point is that you are in a good position to guide the outcome.  If you Gift that away then you're not helping her, you're only sabotaging yourself.

IMHO... .As much as you love her, she really doesn't love you.  Otherwise she wouldn't repeatedly abuse you.  Is she "damaged goods"?  Of course and not your fault.  Can you fix her?  Unlikely and you put yourself at great risk (emotional, financial, legal) if you try.

First things first, the gun and ammo in her possession.  With the order as it is now, the police should have confiscated it from her already.  If not, why not?  Frankly, even if they ought to be returned to you, those should be held in safekeeping until this is all over so she can't claim you later used them to threaten her.

As I said, I haven't read the entire history posted here but the fact is this is not the first time she has violently raged at you.  If you get back with her it is almost a certainty she will rage violently again, if not soon then eventually.  She will try to return to her past comfort zone of periodic rages.  But she will have learned from this and next time she will frame you better as the aggressor.  Can you risk that?

She will improve only if she wants to improve.  Forcing sessions in counseling or therapy won't work unless she applies it diligently in her life, thinking, perceptions and actions.  I would venture to say that none of us here, with our collective experiences, see her ready to do that thus far.

So, besides the guns, what to do?  Save yourself a lot of grief and huge legal costs and a difficult divorce.  Protect yourself by ending the unhealthy and dysfunctional marriage.  Cut her loose, release the wrong fish back into the sea, give yourself time to recover from this and then find a healthier fish who won't attack you.

You want her to pay damages.  If she can't even afford a place to stay, what are the chances of getting reparations?  Let It Go.

IMHO again... .Your terms need to be firm... .  Likely her case can be continued a couple times while you handle the divorce.  Meanwhile you two promptly divorce, uncontested.  Neither owes the other any money or support.  Any joint bank or credit accounts are emptied by agreement and closed.  Any joint ownership or obligations (car titles, property deeds or mortgages, loans, etc) are closed out by agreement.  In other words, if you can walk away, she can walk away.  Or else.  The gun and such immediately get turned over to someone you trust for safekeeping during all this, well, if not already confiscated and held by police.

Yes, she ought to have consequences.  But, frankly, what are the odds of her responding positively to consequences?  You need to protect yourself first and everything else later.  Maybe the next guy she tries to abuse will look up her court history and saves himself some grief.  But I just had a thought, you're probably not the first she has raged at, she might even have a legal history of her own accusing her former BFs and lovers and getting them stuck with POs and ROs.  Did anyone research her past allegations in courts?

I'm so sorry.  We've seen this play out with so many members here.  We wanted our dreams and fair tales to work out.  Those dreams are dashed.  Accept that the marriage is Toast.  Accept you need to move on and deal with What Now?  (Acceptance is one of five steps grieving a relationship loss.  Do a search.)  With her reactions (through her lawyers) thus far, there's no indication anything can be salvaged from the marriage.  Protect yourself legally.  Stay in counseling.  Let Go.  Move On.

Thanks so much folks for all the considerate and thought out responses. It really really means a lot to me.

I'm quite sure the marriage is not salvageable at this point and its all about protecting myself physically, financially, and legally.

As Cat told me in a PM in response to her lawyer's threats based on lies, "I think you're right--that you two are done. Sorry, but you're dodging a bullet here. Once they get that volatile, it's hard to go back and that becomes the new default position when dysregulated."

I will attempt to postpone the hearing in the morning with the intent to attempt to use this PO as leverage to gain advantage in a divorce settlement. If she doesn't buy into that, well, I guess we go to court and try to slap her with a PO.

I'll let you know how it goes later... .

Soo, they are really changing the rules by the hour.

Last night they now tried to file a PO against me alleging that I raped her, along with other things that are untrue. Fortunately the efile system would not take it for whatever reason.

So, They are proposing an agreement where I drop the ex-parte PO and agree to a separation agreement (same requirements as the PO, I keep house and car, etc)... .otherwise nuclear war starts.

This f'in sucks. They are playing very dirty basing claims on lies. I don't think I can stomach nuclear war, especially with rape charges.
I'm going to have to back off on the PO and go with the separation agreement, and proceed with divorce. My lawyer recommends this path unless I want to deal with a very long and drawn out litigation case. Whether

I definitely feel like I'm losing leverage.

seems that she is going to escape consequences... .unless i go the nuclear route... .i just can't stomach that... .there are no children... .i just need to protect myself at this point... .

I couldn't agree more. Protect yourself by fighting back with the ferocity of a cornered wolverine.

Falsely accusing you of rape as a means to blackmail and threaten you into dropping a PO that she deeply, heartily deserves? OH. HELL. NO. Go nuclear, go full bore, show no mercy. Because none will be shown to you. Please do think very hard about keeping that PO in place, and throwing everything you have got at her, including a slander charge. What good would it do anybody to reward false accusations of such a sickening violent crime?

You must be made of steel, because if I were you, I'd be dancing around in the mirror, air boxing to the Rocky theme, and frothing at the mouth to get into court and go full-blown balls-out nuclear, and fight to the death over this. I'd probably be camped out outside the court the night before, unable to contain my bloodthirst. 

I agree in spirit... .but the reality is I can't stomach it. I have a life to live and work to do and still have the divorce to deal with.  I'm tired... .very very tired... .I want to move on and just be myself again. It's a shame, I know.

Ultimately, it's your decision to make. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It sounds horrible. I definitely wish you the best, and I hope for a good outcome for you. 

So sorry it's gotten to this point. It won't feel like this now, but in retrospect, I think you'll see it as a "gift" of sorts. She's shown her hand and how dirty she's willing to play and it has given you a clean break emotionally. It will take a while to get over the betrayal, but at least you won't pine for years for "the one who got away" now that you know who she truly is and what she's capable of.

My question is why even have a separation agreement at this point? Why not immediately proceed with the divorce?

Sorry I've been away... vertigo sucks.  Something going in in inner ear.

You have a case... she has threats.

Only give up your case if she gives up her threats.  Sworn affidavit that she is threatening you with false claims, agreement she will never raise those or similar issues again.

Perhaps then you can move on.

Don't give away aces... without getting some back.

FF

Thanks Cat.

We are proceeding with divorce immediately. She filed a regular no fault divorce petition. And with it requested a TRO (containing separation agreement terms, all the same as the ex parte PO I requested). So in terms of immediate and short term legal protection, I'm getting what I want.

What I'm losing are the long term consequences that are associated with a PO. I'm giving this up because I dont want to face false allegations of rape, multiple attempted murders, etc. My lawyer was supportive and believes that I did not do any of those things, but warned me that it will be a lot of work facing them and will cost a lot of money.

She was bluffing... .the bluff came with a real bite. I just don't know if I can take those wounds. She doesn't have a job. I do. She doesnt have a career, I do. Going down a nuclear path would certainly lead to loss of that career and significant wealth. I PM'd you Cat and Formflier, you know what I do - I can't give that up. I'm already losing the marriage, I'm not also giving up my career.

Anyway, I've already stepped back... .The hearing time is past... .paperwork is already in motion towards a divorce. Now it just comes down to breaking the pieces apart and picking them up... .

Did she put in writing that her allegations won't be brought?

NO.

Formflier, thank you so much for the guidance and support. I see and agree with where you are going. It seems that I can't push this matter in that direction, either by lack of commitment on my part, confusion on my part, fear, etc, and also my lawyer pushing back and recommending the amicable path. It wasn't until 430am this morning that I got a copy of her "affidavit" and allegations. I was already running on only 2 hours of sleep. Perhaps if there was more time, and their false allegations were aired out a day ahead, I would have been more prepared and be willing to fight in the hearing. My lawyer said that getting a hearing postponement would have been unlikely because everyone was already at court.

I do have recorded conversation of us discussing the "uncomfortable" sex the day after, that she now alleges as rape, and in that recording  it was clearing consensual.

The allegations on both sides will come up during the divorce. I don't know if a hearing today and airing out our dirty laundry would have gained me anything in the divorce. At least that is what my lawyer told me. He said i have a win because I'm still getting the protection I need without having to fight false allegations.

That said, my sister had a BPDbf for 4 years. She broke up with him 6 years ago, and has been married for almost 4. Till this day, her exBPDbf still stalks her. I'm not sure what I can do to protect myself long term after this divorce. But it will be something on my mind.

ok. I may be talking in circles here. Its difficlut to stay brave. I'm in shock and fear... .Its difficult to think clearly. To your point about evidence, perponderance vs beyond resonable doubt. The false allegations of rape and attempt at murder and seriously injuring her does not meet the "beyond reasonable doubt". Its just her word. As for family court, I do have a good perponderance of evidence against her claims, and supporting my claims of violence and abuse... .I guess we'll just have to see where that goes.

I was told by my lawyer that a psych eval, even if she were found to have BPD and other conditions (anxiety, etc) wont do anything to affect the outcome of property division in a divorce. But perhaps I should insist on one anyway to further suppress any frivolous criminal charges should she go there.

Most allegations fall under the "how old is the incident?" scale.  Courts generally give less weight to claims older than 6 months, seeing them as 'stale', though older incidents can be used to build credibility of a pattern of behaviors.

What documentation would she have of an alleged rape?  Does she have a date?  Pictures?  Did she tell anyone who would be credibly independent as someone she told back then?

One way to deal with this is that (1) she looks bad so she is trying to make you look worse and (2) this is 'sour grapes' blaming you for the end of the relationship and the pickle she is in now.  Whether that would be a good legal defense, well... .

My ex was arrested for Threat of DV, death threats.  Since she looked bad, she evidently didn't feel she could claim I was abusive, so she made increasingly aggressive child abuse claims.  The first was so weak, that I hurt our preschooler when he tipped his bike on a bicycle path at a local park.  They got worse after that.  To my knowledge she made only one allegation that I was abusive to her, years later when I was seeking full custody in Change of Circumstances.  The court included a brief paragraph that she claimed I'd choked her before we separated years prior.  It merely logged it, no one asked me to respond to that allegation, probably because the court questioned her credibility concerning her testimony in that same finding.

Just her word. No other documentation. She doesn't even keep a journal. So not much substance there. It was back in December. I actually have a recorded phone conversation with her the day after where we talked about the "crappy sex", where she was into it at first but then wasn't and somehow after the sex she retracted her consent. Of course we've had sex several dozen times after that... .If it were rape, you don't come back for more.

I suspect this is the situation. After thinking about this ordeal over the weekend, basically her lawyer sandbagged me with "serious allegations" at the 11h hour, literally, at 11pm at night, they tried to file a PO against me. So I had no chance to prepare. I think in retrospect  I should have been consistent and held my ground despite my lawyer's recommendation to take the easy way out.

I still haven't heard anything from the lawyer on the next steps. One thing for sure, my wife did file a petition for divorce. Hopefully we can get the waiting period waived and move forward as quickly as possible so I can move on in life.

I'm now feeling regretful for not going to court on friday and fighting the frivolous allegations... .Its truely an abimination. I have a much clearer story than she does, back by emails and phone calls. I need to figure out how we can undo this "temporary order" and have a long term protective order in place. and get this divorce accelerated.

 
Yep... .

Don't give away aces... .unless you get one or more back.

She likely feels "emboldened"


Best of luck getting this switched around.

FF