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I’ve been really struggling. The relationship has been “over” for at least a few years now. There have been a few recycles in there but it never got back to a real sustainable healthy marriage. Divorce is set and ready to go for awhile now but it’s dragged on. I can’t help but wonder that even though I know there’s a happier life out there if there’s something deep within me that’s dragged it out.

I want to move on and I’ve grieved the loss of my marriage for the last couple of years already, I can see the toll it’s taking on me.

Even as we approach serving papers and her behavior is all over the place I find myself falling back into the FOG. 

She should be making it so easy for me. The circular arguments. The blame shifting. The last minute (half assed) bid for attention. The name calling, paranoia, fighting... .enough should be enough. This will never be a real marriage again (if it ever was).

I just wonder if it’s knowing my kids will hurt, losing friends (she’s spun so many tails to our friends I’m surprised they still talk to me), moving out of a great house... .too many “other things”. I’m detail oriented and my fear of not knowing is really getting to me.

Just really having a hard time keeping the energy meter up.

ozmatoz, I’m so sorry. This Stuff is so hard.   I welled up while reading your post. Your sincerity and pain are evident. I’ll spare you any pep talks.

Even as we approach serving papers and her behavior is all over the place I find myself falling back into the FOG.
Given how you’re feeling now, and the things you’ve learned along the way, have your thoughts went back to the 5 Stages of Grief at all? How it’s not a linear process? Is there a possibility that this is still playing out for you?

Be kind to yourself, ozmatoz.

Letting go is hard. I’m sure that others will relate with thinking about giving it another to see if things will get better. Did you have dreams with your SO that you wanted fulfill and those dreams were taken away maybe you’re thinking that there is a chance to resuscitate the r/s so that there’s another chance at achieving this dreams. Perhaps because the divorce is almost finalized that it hard to accept the reality that it’s really coming to an end maybe this isn’t what you wanted or wished for things to work out this way.

Letting go takes time it doesn’t happen all at once it happens bit by bit sometimes there are sad feelings when you’re letting go of the last bit that you’re still holding unto. I think that many here can relate with you. I didn’t want to let go either I thought at some stages after we seperated that there might be chance at reconciliation. The reality was that the r/s was too ruptured, it was way past that point of no return I had to let go of her so that I could be true to myself and find happiness for myself.

I empathize with you Oz.  I’m struggling to totally let go, too.  I could have written your post, except our divorce has not been filed, yet.

It is really rough.  Even though we know we will be having more peace, it’s still difficult to let go.  It’s happening little by little for me, and I bet it’s the same way for you.

As you say, it’s hard knowing your kids will hurt.  Our daughter is grown, but I know it still hurts her that we are splitting up.  I love our home, too.  So many projects that made it home.  One of my neighbors called and she told me my climbing roses are blooming and are so beautiful.  I love them and I haven’t even seen them.  I miss my dog. 

My husband regularly makes it easy to see why I should stay gone and end the marriage.  But, I also know his other kinder side.

I’m just so sorry that you are hurting.  You will get through it, I am certain.

Wishing you blessings and peace.  Mustbe

I just wonder if it’s knowing my kids will hurt, losing friends (she’s spun so many tails to our friends I’m surprised they still talk to me), moving out of a great house... .too many “other things”. I’m detail oriented and my fear of not knowing is really getting to me.

Ozmatoz,

I hear you, been through many of the same thoughts myself, wished that the mutual people who met me while we were married would have been interested enough to have called and checked up on me knowing how much I loved her and wanted to do right by her and her kids and pets. Any BS she said about me should have been checked at the curb and they not buy it knowing us and the cruel character of all her family members. But, alas, that wasn't in the cards... .probably for their fear that if my STBx got wind of their gesture she'd poop all over them, too.

Kids will hurt, or maybe think thank God Dad's getting himself to safer ground (depending on their ages), but they will be better off watching someone take a stand against being abused than continuing to be a punching bag.

I feel as though I didn't lose friends as much as I myself have jettisoned people from my life who did absolutely nothing to help me and our family even us while my STBx burned everything to the ground, and in some instances did it to me and the kids in front of them. These people are no friends of mine.

Oz, to recharge the energy meter try engaging in something that brings you joy. Take a break from the divorce stuff and treat yourself to something enjoyable.

J

Thanks everyone.  I've been up and down through the stages of grief more times than I'd like to admit.  I think what really gets to me is when I finally feel I have the courage, when I finally feel like yes I can do this, yes everything will be all right, that no this is not a decision I will regret, when I finally feel this way I take my foot off the gas pedal.  The reasons why escape me but if I were to hazard a guess its my own insecurities and fears holding me back.

She was always good at making mountains out of mole hills.  Yes I had (still have) some of the dysfunction in the relationship, problem is over the years when I felt like I had made some progress it was just tossed out... .not good enough... .I "still suck".  This has a way of getting in your head to keep trying until there is absolutely nothing left of you.

We are only in the beginning stages of the divorce, both talking to lawyers, no papers served at this point.  I'm afraid that when they do get served hell will be unleashed upon me. 

There are no hopes to resuscitate the r/s, she is no longer someone I could ever feel remotely close or safe with, perhaps its still me wondering what the hell happened and where this person who I thought was my wife went.

Perhaps its the fear that she'd rather stay embroiled and fight rather than move on with her life.
If I'm getting divorced to look for a more peaceful life and she doesn't leave me alone... .then what?

uBPDw is not a monster, and generally is good with the kids.  Her outside relationships function and are fairly healthy.  Seeing that side of her always had me so confused... .why does she treat me like I'm scum?  Why couldn't she put the gloves down?  So confused on how people treat someone they supposedly love this way... .Confused as to why I also returned some of that behavior when I know without a doubt its not my nature.

Some days I just feel like I want to puke, there is no need for so much drama.
D11 is going to be really hurt, D16 is begging me to file and get out so she can have some peace as well.  I think what is tough with our friends is that they either fear her too, or as I said she is good to outsiders so now I'm just another chump husband and her friends husbands will be "warned" to stay away from me.

I'd like to recharge somehow, but right now anything I try to do for myself is met with complete outrage and legal threats.  I really just need to have her served and get some sort of custody arrangement in place so I can actually and legally have some room to breathe.

Again, thank you everyone for replying.

Hi oz,

I notice that your focus is on her. What do you want for you and the kids?

Mutt, that is a good question.  What I want at the moment for the kids is a peaceful home where there is no fighting.  I would like them to see happy people treating each other with respect.  I want them to feel safe and loved.  I want them to have healthy and loving parents/role models in their lives.

I wanted to have a normal marriage where there was love, not a relationship that one party gets executed if they make mistakes.  Its hard to communicate and work through issues when you are always guilty as charged and never truly forgiven even if that's something you offer back.
I would like to find a relationship where I can actually share my thoughts and feelings without being called a p--sy.

I know I could (and should) be in a better place emotionally and healthier for the kids but it would take time and space that my uBPDw will not give, and frankly has had no capacity to understand the concept of space and individuality.  To her everything must be shared, everything done together, everything planned together, anything less than that reeks of lies and deceit... .

If I was never allowed to heal within the marriage it leaves only one other choice.  Because she so strongly believes we are "one" there will never be a chance to be myself unless it is on her terms.  Because she so strongly believes she is right any talk about moving on being the healthier option for everyone is met with threats and anger.

She has essentially threatened come back into the marriage or fight to the death.  She's not happy either... what gives?

Hey, Om... .

I think my STBx left me for you. The similarities are uncanny.

As such, may I suggest something?

Can you try and not take her for her words and instead let her actions or inactions speak for themselves? 

I have found my STBx to be an habitual liar, accordingly I let everything she says go in one ear and out the other.

This idea of your STBx trying to sell you on this bull about being “one”? Please, the only ONE who matters to her is her. She could give a flying fart about you and keeping any peace for the benefit of the kids.

Just be clear with your needs and intentions and keep pressing forward with making that happen for you and your kids.

You’re going to be OK. You can do it!

J

One way you could look at being one is lack of boundaries a pwBPD lack boundaries on themselves and don’t know where they end and you begin. A r/s without boundaries where two partners think as one is emeshment. You can get untangled from her.

Oz,

I am going to suggest another possibility.

Right now am reading the 2nd of the divorce busting books.  Its all about what I can do to change the dynamics of our r/s.  We lived together 10 yrs, separated one year now.

am suggesting to read the 2nd book, it's called Divorce Remedy.  I know you said you are done and i also hear regret... .
when we change our behaviour, the other person changes.  I don't know how that could be, and it is.

My attitude plays such a big part in how things go.

If i can get excellent self care, regularly, have one friend i can unburden with, just listen, no advice, no judgement, if i can get my side of the street taken care of:what I am saying is i want to be healthy.  That lets me live in peace.

hang in there,  it's good you are getting your thought out, it's Good!
juju

Getting untangled and trying to have my own space has been next to impossible. The enmeshment makes any attempts to go be or do my own thing so painful. The only time I have to myself is when I’m driving D16 around to her school and extracurricular events.

I get attacked for even trying to go therapy every two weeks. I can’t leave the house to see friends. Heck I can’t even escape to work. The texting is relentless. If I don’t answer it’s nonstop calls until I pick up.

Do I have regret?  Yes, I regret not having the backbone to remove myself from this years ago.

It’s so hard to just ignore her dribble, this is someone whom I’m supposed to have respect for... .I just can’t find a way to turn it off and let the chips fall where they may. I fear doing that could severely impact my children if she goes after my job.

I need to find a way to permanently flip the detach switch. Thank you everyone for your encouragement and support.

I've really been thinking about this comment for a few days.  I've had this advice given to me several times and it is good solid advice.  There is a lot of BS.  I would like to counter this advice a bit though and question when does using constant projection, anger, neediness, nastiness, cruelty of words actually become an action itself?

Yes she may threaten to do things, or lie that she has and nothing comes of it except that she was full of hot air.  Part of me feels like if this is how she wants to operate and communicate that is a choice and action she is taking.  I think we can all relate that even when trying to ignore them, words do hurt.  I've told her this many times and she chooses to still tear me apart.


I'm glad you've been able to get to this point.  I think my non-brain is still struggling to wrap my head around just not caring even a little anymore.  Its part of why I know its over and needs to end.  For me a healthy marriage is one where I actually can safely listen to my wife's words and offer comfort or assist with something if she so desires without wondering if it will be used against me later.

Thank you

I would like to counter this advice a bit though and question when does using constant projection, anger, neediness, nastiness, cruelty of words actually become an action itself?

Probably when you let them be actions.

I'd liken it to a batter in the on deck circle. Projection, anger, neediness, nastiness, etc. are the weights she wraps around her bat for when she actually has to take action as a result of all these things. Most of these things she uses to beat you up with while she just stays there on the sideline swinging her mean weighted bat. She'll say you're a so and so, and that's why she apparently is doing or saying X at you.

OK... .well, if you're such a bad person, then why doesn't she just leave or just leave you alone because clearly you are incapable of meeting her needs (despite how hard you try)? Ah ha! Therein lies the rub! She's got all these weights around her bat, yet she doesn't actually get up to bat. They're just for show and don't actually mean anything. Oh, but if she had to get up to bat she would and show you. Uh, no... .someone as cruel as she is won't show anyone anything other than her ability to latch onto and abuse the next person.

For me a healthy marriage is one where I actually can safely listen to my wife's words and offer comfort or assist with something if she so desires without wondering if it will be used against me later.

Please don't forget that that is a two way street for when you need comfort and assisting, too.


J

 

Very good point.  I let her swing that bat in the on deck circle and instead of getting out of the way I let it hit me.  Maybe this is an ah-ha moment for me too.  Realizing that despite the tools, no matter what she will always be/say cruel things.  I'm a sensitive person.  Thats not really something that is going to change in myself either.  Sure I could toughen up a little and I think I have, but sensitive + BPD does not work. 


Another good point. And really something that has just put chills down my spine.  Its been so long since I've been able to seek comfort or ask for help that I don't even consider it any more.  Sad really.

Thank you J

Oz,

We're kindred spirits. I, too, am a pretty sensitive guy... .used to be a very sensitive guy. I thought the world of my STBx, but she slowly but surely squeezed all that out of me. It's hard to believe, because I couldn't have loved her, her bio kids, and pets more.

Two things I often said in response to much of her madness... .

1) What are you talking about?

2) Why can't you just give me the benefit of the doubt?

Now? I could give two poops about what she's talking about or getting the benefit of the doubt from her.

Here's a typical story... .

So, STBx seems to be couch surfing at my place instead of sleeping at her place when in between trips for her job. The pipes burst at her place... .whatever. Her bio kids live with me, so I am not going to make an issue of it.

A couple of days ago she says to me when I get home from work, "If you sweep the kitchen I'll mop." I hear what she says, pause a moment, and think to myself, "A ha! This seems like a simple enough statement, but I know only one of these two things is likely to happen, and it's definitely not her mopping anything in my house."

She even went so far as to say she would have done it earlier, but she couldn't find the broom or mop.

The broom I pointed out to her was right behind her (which is where I ALWAYS keep it), but of course she didn't see it somehow. The mop is the first thing one sees when they come into the house through the mud room. It has been there for a good couple of months, if not longer.

She leaves the kitchen, so I swept it.

That was all that got done, and mopping never came up again.

It really does boggle the mind.

BUT... .if one assumes it's all words they spew just for show, you'll be right more often than taking them at their word.

J

Oz... .

You, sir, are having the toughest time. I read this whole thread and I really feel your pain. I don't have too much else new to offer as far as insight goes because the other members covered it so well!

Even so, I just wanted to pop in and say I hear you, have been where you are now (two years ago), and hope things get moving for you soon.

I do think Mutt is on the right track with suggesting that you treat yourself as well as you can during this time.

One other last thought: Since this thing is moving toward an inevitable divorce, have you set some boundaries with your wife (as far as protecting yourself from her drama)? Are you stepping back from the fray?

We're always listening... .


-Speck

I’ve been trying to. I’ve been trying to be more forgiving of myself. Any time I was late or stuck in traffic or didnt reply fast enough i used to let her verabal abuse get to me. Now i can little by little not let it hit me so hard.
Last week when I had to take D16 to a class I had time to walk around, and stumbled upon a cool bookstore.  Right in the front of the store was a book on creative awakenings using photography. This is on of my hobbies that died so long ago. Even though she praised my abilities she wouldn’t let me have the time to stay with it. It was the first time I bought something and felt zero guilt, absolutely no care as to if she would have approved. It was such a liberating feeling.


Now that things are sitting with the lawyers she’s trying desperately to recycle and it is so hard. I live in a beautiful new home in a great neighborhood, pets, friends... .the whole caboodle.  But even through her recycling attempts I can now see the blame shifting and alternate realities mixed in with erratic impulsive behavior.  My parents have been supportive and if I can keep my fears at bay I have found I’m able to disengage a bit more. I would be lying though if I didn’t sometimes feel like I could be making a mistake.


Thank you Speck, and everyone else here. I have a T but this place has been a savior.

Hello Ozmatoz,

I stumbled upon your post and thought I'd reply.

I have been in a similar situation and I'm really sorry that you are feeling so bad.
Maybe you don't want to hear this now, but you will feel better one day and you will thrive, and so will your kids.


Why do you say your D11 is going to be really hurt ?

Sometimes we have the pretention to be in someone's head, and to think that we know how they feel. But ... .just because you are  sad and heartbroken that your marriage is over ... .doens't mean this has to be the case for your children.

The reason I stayed that long with my abusive ex(es) was (well, one of the reasons) my daughter. She would be devastated if I left !

Truth is ... .She had a hard time at the beginning. I'm saying, at the beginning. Middle and long term, I started to see that she was happier than before. She was thriving. And even during those harder times in the beginning, I cannot say she  was unhappy, on the contrary. She just had a hard time concerning certain issues.

Middle term ... .she saw mum finally sticking up for herself ... which is a good example for her later on. I am afraid that if I had stayed longer, she might have repeated the ugly pattern in her own life. She learned about healthy behavior, because the endless fights stopped and I started to learn how to say no to abusive people.

And of course children cannot fully be happy if their surroundings are full of fights. I really think that's a no-brainer. And on top of that ... if we are happy, our children will be happier.

It will take some time, for you and your children to find a new balance. You will face some hard times. But you will get through it, and so will they. Together. You will find strength in each other.
Their mum and dad will live separately from now on. But hey ... .no one is dying. They will still have a mum, and still have a dad. Without the fights.

Frankly ... .I'd know what to choose. And D16 apparently also knows (since she asked you to get a divorce)

I am sending you a lot of strength. You will need it. But please don't feel guilty for your children. Their life will get better from now on.

xxx

Oz,

I'm glad to hear that you are putting up a little armor to protect yourself from her verbal abuse. This is very good! Also, you're starting the spark to old creative interests (photography). I think this is wonderful.

About feeling like you are making a mistake: Indecision is tough, especially since she is pulling out all the charms. Tread cautiously here, friend, as you may allow yourself to be manipulated.

Listen to your gut... .


-Speck

Fie: thank you for the kind words.  Yes D16 is looking for a peaceful home and knows that it would be tough but ok.  D11 is a little delayed in her emotional age and is really just an amazing love bug.  She can't really understand not living together, that we would no longer be family.  Honestly I think she has the beginnings of BPD or at least some enmeshment problems.  Working on getting her comfortable enough with the idea of seeing a T.

Up until this week when I finally served my wife with papers it was constant fighting, before school, home from work, at bedtime, there was never a moment where I wasn't getting nasty looks or backhanded insults or passive aggressive behavior.  It was so relentless that I couldn't keep my cool any more and we'd end up in another fight.

I do worry about them having to move out of their home and probably into two apartments.  We have pets to deal with and I know that will be tough and I struggle to see how that would really make their life better.

Speck I put up some armor and was feeling pretty good about myself and finally pushing forward.  Now that she's been served divorce papers its like a entirely different person has shown up.  She was begging for a little bit to not do this, but has changed to being super kind, outgoing, affectionate, even acknowledging some of her atrocious behavior.  I guess this would be "love bombing"?  Hard to fight against.  How do you stay firm when someone is being nice to you?  So counter intuitive...   Frankly I feel a bit manipulated by this.  If she can flip this on like a switch then why couldn't/wouldn't she do it years ago when it really mattered?

I've been alone and lonely for so long it is really hard to stay firm... .

Oz,

Wow, I've just caught up on this thread.  I was going to start quoting your words that especially resonated with me, but I gave up since all of it resonated.  Every single word.  As you know, our situations are very similar.  It is so terrifically difficult to let go.  Despite the atrocious maltreatment.  Despite the fact that we both probably haven't been comforted for years and can never feel safe again.  I find that even if my wife is courteous about doing the taxes together over e-mail I start to get sucked back in again.

I hear you about the recent dilemma posed by your wife's nice behavior.  How you respond depends on how you feel.

You've said you can never feel safe again.  I get it.  If you want to keep going and not feel guilty about it, just remind yourself of what she has done.  People don't change overnight.  External eyes are on her now.  When it was just the two of you, she did whatever she wanted.

Another option you could take is to set the bar very very high.  For example, you could say if she full-on commits to a DBT program within 3 weeks, you'll put the divorce on hold for as long as she's in the program and she is treating you with respect and you'd reassess in Y months to see if you wanted to continue.  The chances she can manage that are low.  But you're essentially stating your value -- that you're worth a huge effort on her part.  Even if she doesn't take you up on it, it might make you feel better.  But... .if you really know what you want, and the idea of being stuck strikes fear in your heart, no need to mess around.  You've given her plenty of chances.

Your priorities are in the right place.  Things will get better.  What you are doing takes a huge amount of guts, but you can do it.

WW

Oz,

Yes, it's all very counterintuitive. I guess its a case of too little too late?

I've been alone and lonely for so long it is really hard to stay firm... .


I am picking up what you're you're putting down here.

Let me ask you this... .

Let's say you cave, how do you foresee it going? How do you think you'll feel afterward lest she accuse you of something untoward and dehumanizing?

My STBx was at my house yesterday wearing a tight T-shirt. I could barely look without my mind wandering a bit, but not too far. She anger s3xed me the past few times, which was just about the worst feeling ever. I keep that in the forefront of my mind when I even think of even letting such thoughts creep into me.

The anger s3x is one of the many unforgivable acts I keep in mind when she's around.

J

WW

Absolutely right, and I've even asked her, if you could just "flip a switch" then why has it taken you years... .?  That was met with a complete reversal on how she was hiding behind the hurt of all my actions/inactions and that it is me (because of the divorce papers) that has refused to put the gloves down.  That has been a phrase I have been using with her for about 9 months (maybe longer) when she would just relentlessly come after me.

As far as setting the bar really high I just don't think I'm going to go there.  This is speculation on my part but I could see it going down like this:  She initially refuses, I push forward with divorce, last minute (again) she relents but tries to spin therapy as couples counseling instead (because I have brought much of the dysfunction).  On the off chance she agrees to DBT she'll spin it back that since its my request I need to help her find the counselor.  I will have to be the one destroying my work schedule to deal with the kids.  My mother would help but uBPDw firmly believes I should not be asking her to help.  She goes a few times and "acts really nice" says she's all better and poof! Stops going.

Further reason I don't want to go there, I lost my entire summer last year.  Missed out on time at the foo's lakehouse, couldn't keep up with running, couldn't leave the house, was basically prisoner.  I made a promise to myself that I would NOT go through another summer like that.

But yet it is still hard, when I fall back and remind myself of who she really is I have it thrown back at me that now "I'm the one living in the past"  "Let it go, what matters is NOW" and "NOW I am here trying, and YOU aren't"... fog?

Jeffree

Been down this road before, I know how it goes.  She "decides" its finally ok to be physical and comes at me with all the charm and heat you can imagine.  I cave, we have a few days of odd s3x, it doesn't really feel like we are connecting and I start to pull away from the charm.  I am then accused of just using her body.  I'm despicable because that's all I can think about.  She was "right" all along, I only care for connection when it revolves around s3x.  Wait... what?  it was her that came at me, then I start to realize that she's trying to use this as a club to either get some sort of return for her "efforts" or prove herself right that I'm an a-hole.

Yup, no thanks.  Still its hard.  I'm only human.  My anniversary is this weekend too... .ouch.

Digging for strength.

I am then accused of just using her body.  I'm despicable because that's all I can think about.  She was "right" all along, I only care for connection when it revolves around s3x.

I used to get this when things were "good."

Granted, she wasn't entirely wrong, but not due to the reasons she thought. She's the one who changed the rules of engagement and went from the aggressor most of the time to the prey and turned any motions I made toward s3x fraught with peril and judgment.

"I don't want to spoon with you anymore, because you get excited then I feel obligated to take care of you." Hmmmm, OK, let's just destroy the final arena in which we seemed to get along. Great idea! Being attracted to and turned on by my spouse... .shame on me.

Anywell, you're asking for strength to combat your STBx's advances... .That's tough, because I know how difficult it can be to resist when one is already feeling revved up in that regard. Maybe keep what you've outlined here as the outcome of caving close to your heart when she does make advances and perhaps that'll help?

J

Oz, I'm sorry it's so tough.  It is ridiculously tough.  They will not make it easy on us.  There will be no mature, mutual decision.

About "hanging onto the past... ."  There's obsessively hanging onto the past in a way that blocks change and is hurtful, which is what you're being accused of.  And then there's looking at history as a reasonable prediction of the future, which is what I think is likely to be a better description of what you're doing.  Just remind yourself of that.  She doesn't have to agree.  She won't agree.  But responsible, mature people (like we are trying to learn how to be  :) ) look at the past as a reasonable prediction of the future, unless there is a convincing reason to predict otherwise.

WW

Oz,

Please forgive me for just now getting to this:


Naaaahhh... .just probably plain ol' simple manipulation or idealization raised by fears of the inevitable... .divorce is abandonment, after all. From what you have shared with us, you're jumping ship because it's sinking... .only the mast and tiny flag are above the water line. There's no shame in that, whatsoever, my friend. And further, I sincerely hope that you will never look in the mirror and tell yourself the lie that you didn't try to save your relationship because you have tried.


I know it's hard. But, I try to listen to my gut. If my solar plexus is telling me that I'm being manipulated, but the words I'm hearing do not match, then fine hairs on the back of my neck start to twitch... .further confirming that I'm being manipulated. It's science. But, hey, I'm rather gun shy these days.


Because she's simply not capable of loving you in the way that you need to be loved. It's not right or wrong, it's just she's not able to meet you halfway in this regard.


I'm so sorry you're going through this phase. It really feels bad all around. To decide on a course of action that will inevitably upset the apple cart, and then to doubt this course of action based on the arbitrary charms of the other, is crazy-making all on its own.

Hang in there. We're here for you.


-Speck

WW/Jeffree yes, looking back through my old posts (this one included), some old journals too.  Using the past not to be stuck there at all.  If anything I'm probably over forgiving which makes it hard to see them as a predictor of future behavior which in turn makes me more vulnerable to her fog laced love-bombing.

Although last night she gave me a glimpse of who she was again.  Came into my room after bed complaining about how I'm going to waste valuable money that our family really needs on lawyers.  She kept hitting on how our family could really use that money for something different... .caught up on bills, car for D16 or vacation even.  I pointed out the hypocrisy to her because as she's spitting all this at me, she is still sitting on a bank account where she has deposited 8 months worth of her paychecks into and hasn't once used any of that money to contribute to family expenses.  Her response?  "I wasn't going to put my money into an account without my name on it anymore... ."  ok I say, you now have an account with your name on it, why are you hoarding this money that you say our family needs?  She replies back "I gave money for our family to you for 17 years and it didn't have my name on it.  I'm not giving you any more." 

So here she is saying that she is "trying" yet doesn't want to contribute, but then says we should both add each other to each others account.  Finally she gets fed up and storms out, 15 minutes later she comes in kisses me on the cheek and says goodnight and walks out again...   This is really crazy making

Speck, thank you for writing back, we're all busy so no worries.
I know I have tried, I've tried for years.  Would I say that I've tried my hardest this past year?  Probably not but thats because I tried my hardest for years prior and yes the ship is sinking and I have nothing left in the tank.  I just wish she didn't want us all to drown.  And I keep hearing from her about how we've both tried at different times, now we just need to try together blah blah blah, definitely some manipulation there.

If I look back at how my body is reacting it should be telling me something.  I close up when she makes a move on me, I purposefully try to be on the other side of the room, when she reaches for my hand or tries to kiss me I just want to run away.  She then turns this on me saying I'm the one that doesn't want to try anymore.  I don't, I can't.

I've tried to talk to her and reason with the fact that neither of us is able to love the other in the ways that are important and that fighting in this marriage is just keeping both of us from finding what really fills our love buckets.

I really appreciate everyone here having my back.  I just want this to be over.

So here she is saying that she is "trying" yet doesn't want to contribute, but then says we should both add each other to each others account.  Finally she gets fed up and storms out, 15 minutes later she comes in kisses me on the cheek and says goodnight and walks out again...   This is really crazy making

Uhhhh... .that's just plain CRAZY! To me, it could potentially be crazymaking if there was anything relatively normal or believable in her behavior.

Even when my STBx is trying to be normal toward me now there's this air of phoniness to it that makes me so sick to think I bought this bull at one time.

There are countless examples of how to communicate with a pwBPD, and I don't know if what I am about to suggest is recommended, but for me what works is clear, simple, matter-of-fact statements that reinforce my convictions.

In your case, I'd merely remind her that you want a divorce and will continue to pursue one. This issue of the money is just static from her side. Like you pointed out, she's contradicting herself here.

J

Oz,


Well, I certainly understand this. I really do. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I guess, what it all boils down to is this: What do you need to do for yourself right now that will net you maximum peace, harmony, joy, well-being, and self-respect until the end of your days? Is it the path of staying in your marriage and working on bettering your situation, or is it the path of gracefully bowing out of something so wholly toxic to be irreparable?

If you don't know the answer to this right now, that's okay. I'm sure that the answer will come forth in time. And... .we'll be right here for you no matter which path you choose.


-Speck

Oz,

A couple of things resonated with me... .

You make a good point -- we not thinking of the past to wallow in it, we're actually doing the opposite -- looking at the problems of the past in order to avoid them.

I also can relate to paying attention to how your body feels.  I had been rationalizing things with my mind for years, more often than not determining that she was right or I needed to work harder.  My brain often did not serve me well.  I totally lost touch with my gut.  I started paying attention to my body and it was screaming at me.

WW

Oz, I totally understand why this is so heart wrenching for you.  It's been the same for me.  It seems that almost everything has already been said in this post.  I'm rooting for you and your daughters to find peace and happiness.

Mustbeabetterway

Oz,

How have things been going for you, bud?

How are you feeling?


-Speck

Thanks for checking in.  What an awful couple of days.  She's in tatters telling me how even if there is a sliver of hope beneath my facade of hurt that we should work this out.  Don't do this to the kids, invest the time, energy and money from the divorce into us instead.  We can do this, don't make this me vs you.  We just need to come together.

I don't hate this woman but her all in version of love is not healthy and she is not logical and she is looking for answers.  She can't understand any of the answers which makes me the bad guy all over again. 

I feel like I want to puke today.

Oz,

Don't do this to the kids, invest the time, energy and money from the divorce into us instead.

That's the same B.S. my STBx has said, and just as recently as last week has been claiming she wants things to get back to normal (normal in the sense of a family she broke up being as together as they can be when she pops in unannounced). I've taken it all to mean that either her backup plan didn't work out the way she was hoping, OR she hasn't been able to find safe passage with someone else yet and needs to feel as though I'm on some back burner for her.

Regardless, what I don't like about the way your STBx has put it is that it's still YOU making the FOG sacrifices for her and the kids. Nowhere do I hear that she understands how she's hurt you and that YOU deserve to be happy.

Maybe if you can be firm as to what you deserve and stick to that it might make things shake out more clearly?

Also, I have to say that if I was to ever to have received anything along these lines from my STBx before I had asked to be in separate bedrooms, I would have relented. I just would have. It would have been at least a semblance of awareness of the situation that deserved to be addressed. Instead, what I got was just constant abuse, crazymaking, blame, cruelty, lies, deception, etc., to the point that I will never entertain going back with her.

Lastly, I can appreciate how hard it is to hear what your STBx is saying to you and stand firm with your position.

J

Thanks Jeffree, its part of the million things she is throwing at me right now.

She says she's laying her hurt aside and coming to me bare and believes our abilities to do this differently together.  She has strongly vowed to work on making us both happy and to treat me with more kindness and respect.  To talk to me without making threats.  She's asking me to take a risk and be willing to give it one more try for our family. 

She's going down memory lane and telling me all the things she loved about me and the things I did for her.

She vows to build me back up and never tear me down, to be there and support me.

I have no idea what this all really means in her reality.  On the surface these words sound nice, they seem apologetic, but why now?  Why not 6 months ago, why not 2, 3, 4 years ago?

I don't think I'm a back up plan, I think she threw a lot of crap at me that wasn't true so I don't think she's got anyone/anything lined up.  What I do think is happening is she doesn't know how to live without me.  I feel like I'm the only one that took care of her, she knows that and is now facing the reality that she is losing it.  I don't think she knows what to do so in the midst of lashing out she is going for broke and promising the moon.

Nice to hear, but when I sit and realize that I just don't feel comfortable around her.  She's the last person right now that I want to invest any more effort or time into.  When I go out without her, or just me and the kids I feel so much more at peace.  I know that divorce flips the house and upsets a lot of things for the kids.  I think D16 will be ok but the logistics between the two kids and D11's school is going to be daunting.

I feel like even in divorce I will be having to take care of her crap and holding her hand through it all.  I feel like its not my turn anymore, but I also don't want to fall into being/sounding like a "victim"

I just wished she'd say ok, I get it we've both tried and haven't been able to make it work.  Lets figure out the best thing for the kids... .I know that can't happen with her. 

Oz,


I understand exactly where you are, friend. It's tough.


Have you sat down and asked her this? And, if so, what was her answer?


Yes, it does seem like she is panicking a bit here. She doesn't understand that her hurtful actions/behavior has had fatal consequences on your heart. It's almost like she is trying to deny the reality of your suffering, which is a hallmark of BPD.


After my wife left me the third time, I never felt completely easy around my uBPDex ever again. When she left me the fourth and final time, I was filled with understandable shock/betrayal, yes, but also an immediate relief. It was finally over. I watched her divorce me without protest. Four months later, I am so grateful that I did not beg her to stay or try to "work it out" with her. My life has real hope again.

But... .I understand that every situation is different. I just wanted to put my story out there as a different perspective... .only you will know if it resonates.

We're with you every step of the way, Oz.


-Speck

Well, that certainly answers the question you posed initially in this thread. You can't see the reality because she constantly changes it for good as well as bad.

It'd be easy if it was all just bad and getting worse all the time. You'd have no choice.

But when she dangles that white flag in front of you, and even says some things in ways you had written her off as incapable of, that makes it tricky.

Again, I am past the point of no return with my STBx, but if at some point along the way (probably up until she anger s3xed me for the last time last summer) she would have said anything along these lines of your wife's, I would have given it a shot.

Granted, it wouldn't be a shot with me acting as though none of her b.s. had happened, but I would have been open to revisiting marriage counseling and trying to rebuild all the bridges she burned down and each of us taking accountability in our roles in it all and taking baby steps toward rebuilding trust in each other.

J

Speck thanks for hanging with me here, its tough being the one that is trying to leave.  I thought for a time she was going to go and that would have been much easier.

I did ask her this and she said that she was hiding behind her hurt and was unwilling to let herself be open and vulnerable.  She said that all the hurtful things she said and did were out of protection for fearing I would hurt her. (hurt him first... .very BPD).  She states that she wishing she had dropped the facade earlier, but that she's doing it now, and that should count for something... .  I struggle with this, some of the things she said and did were fairly atrocious.


Thank you for these words, they've been escaping me.  I may use them tonight if she has some moments where I think I can get through to her.  All day its been booklets of text telling me how much we can do this together and that its ok, she understands I'm hurt but still chooses me and I should still choose her.  Its not about choosing to move towards a better life, I want that for both of us.  Its about choosing to not have her be a part of it.  I don't ever see myself feeling the security I need around her.

Jeffree

Yes, indeed she is trying to show things in a positive light, and I guess I can't fault her for that.  Her world is about to crumble and she thinks I am being mean and cruel and in a rush.  Its been going downhill for years and she's been asking me to leave (Literally thousands of times) over the past year.  I sat on the summons for a month before serving her.  Then I had the lawyer draft up something saying that she could stay at the house for a few months (all expenses covered by me as usual) so the kids can finish out the school year, then sell the house, pay off bills and both of us land on two feet.  She told me today there's no way she'd accept that and its far from amicable... .what?  There is literally no possible way for me to give her any more...


I think this hits on the nail on the head too.  There have been many on here who over time had a spouse finally own up and I often wondered what that would be like.  Now... ?  Now I know, and its terrifyingly confusing.  I can't even count how many times she's said to me to stop looking at her past and to look at her now.  I don't think she'll ever understand what her past did to me.  She's going to force me to be the bad guy and thats tough.  She knows thats not my nature.

Good luck with your situation as well.

I thought for a time she was going to go and that would have been much easier.

It was much easier for me. I, too, am not comfortable being the bad guy, and how to get her out of my life and not be the bad guy and not spark her being worse than she already was being was a challenge.

Luckily, I caught her talking up some guy, looked up the phone records, and had her dead to rights, so she decided to leave because I was "spying" on her. LOL!

J

Oz,

Yes, we're hanging with you throughout this whole crunchy mess... .

I know it's tough, although, I didn't go through exactly what you're experiencing right now. No, in the end, my wife made it easy for me: She left me the fourth time and then filed for divorce 6 days later. Impulsive!

It appears that your wife is a master at swirling the FOG all around you. Be strong. Listen to your solar plexus... .

Hang in there!


-Speck

Hey Oz,

My wife is not nearly as contrite as yours.  But they may share the expectation that we will come back and forgive.  And I think we share the feeling that we can never be safe again.  I feel some of the same confusion as you when my wife is nice about things, or when she talks about the future.

That feeling of safety is a huge deal.  I think it's acceptable to be a one issue voter on that.

I think neither you nor I are hating our wives, or contemptuous of them.  We know they have an illness.  We know their emotions are genuine.  All along, including now, they are desperately using whatever means they can think of to maintain equilibrium, and sadly are being ineffective at getting what they crave -- they get the opposite by driving us away.  I guess where I'm going with this is that the empathetic yet self-respecting way to look at this is that they may genuinely want us back, and genuinely think that things can be better, yet not have the tools or capability to deliver on their promises. 

This following paragraph, I'm including with some trepidation, because part of me thinks I should just shut up and back you up as you walk out the door -- set me straight if I'm not giving you the support you need.  Any more thoughts on mentioning DBT to your wife?  Just throwing out ideas, but you could do a legal separation with a custody arrangement to get most of the peace of a divorce, and she jumps in full force into DBT.  A therapeutic separation, with only upside for you?  Even if you divorce, she perhaps gets healthier, and you get a better coparent.  I'm not very optimistic about how things are going to go with my marriage but I think it's a good thing for all of us that she's getting DBT.  The thing my wife doesn't understand, and you'd soon see if your wife understood, is at this point it is not enough to have a cessation of hostilities and we start hashing out our marriage like equals.  In order to win my heart and make me feel safe, she'd have to get healthy and then go beyond that to fantastic levels of love and compassion with unrealistic consistency for a long period of time.  I am not sure it's realistic to expect any woman to pour on enough love to balance the universe like that, let alone my wife.  Sorry, I'm all over the map here.  Your case hits too close to home for me to be clean and crisp!

WW

Thanks for checking in everyone.
Update: she is still really pushing and trying to grab at me, climb into my bed, tell me she's laying down her walls, wants the privilege to earn back my love... . 

She is telling me she can see uncertainty in me and that since "she knows" that I'm not 100% that I should withdraw the petition and give her time to show me we can make this work.  I'm seeing that as more black and white thinking, of course this is dirty, of course this is hurtful.  Her 100% doesn't take into account her inabilities to really change, or see the damage caused, or realize my caretaker personality.  Of course I'd like things to be different.  Do I have trepidation about divorce?  Of course I do, I think that should be normal right?

Thing is, she has to go to her lawyers office tomorrow to answer the divorce petition.  She says to me that once we start negotiating she guarantees more hurt and resentment and that it is a point of no return for her.  That it will kill any of the slightest chances of whats left (if any).

WW you are right, she may really want what we have (we do have a lot), and I can feel that her emotions are strong and probably true.  What is sad is that in those moments I don't think she can really grasp the damage done.  I don't think she even feels its there and therefore we can do it, we can make this better... .  Maybe when I look at her we sadness and care (I will always love her) she confuses that with a willingness to dive back into this marriage.

I appreciate your continued thoughts on DBT, but therapy is just a no go.  Couples therapy was screamed at me as a no for months, then she refused to go back to see her own therapist from years ago, then I wasn't allowed to go... .now the tune is couples therapy is ok, and oh by the way I went back to see my old therapist.  Some time.  Like December.  Oh no I actually went a few times... .blah blah... .I think you can see how much I don't believe she's seen her therapist and it only tells me she would never follow through for the long term that she would need to get better.


Couple things here. Totally agree that this sudden stop of angry and hurt and "dropping of walls" is NOT enough.  I have my own things to own in this dysfunction and I was for a time willing to own them provided she brought something to the table.  Just peacefully co-existing is not good enough.  What I am having a hard time saying to her is that its not just sudden reversal of her actions that can stop this.  I am being honest with her that the bar I would have to set is so impossible that I don't even want to put her through that.  I'm tired of waiting around for it too.  I'll be 40 next month, way too much life left to live like this.

She says to me that once we start negotiating she guarantees more hurt and resentment and that it is a point of no return for her.  That it will kill any of the slightest chances of whats left (if any).

Ironically, even good functional relationships involve negotiating, working through things, compromise, sacrifice, etc. Sounds to me that if this is how she wants to coerce you into relenting about the divorce, then this is how she will negotiate will all other aspects of "what's left" of your lives together.

J

Oz,

Gotchya on the DBT thing.  A full-on jump into DBT might be a reason to pause, but if she is diddling about even seeing any therapist, that's an "easy" one.  This is not something that gets fixed with a few promises and no fundamentals changing.  The point you make about her not understanding the damage is really something that is hitting me this week.  We just went through a decision about D12's therapist, where I used my legal custody prerogative to override my wife and get a therapist with more DV experience, and she sent me an e-mail talking about how she always got overpowered in our marital decisions and she has to stick up for herself -- and she sends this when there still has not been accountability or reconciliation for her abuse.  She has skipped a few steps!  It just hit me then that she has no earthly idea of how much damage she has done to me.  And this is with DBT.


I have had this exact same thought.


Understood.  If it makes you feel any better, you've got me beat by 10 years! 

WW

Again they must have been separated at birth... A main point she keeps trying to drive home is that she felt i always overrode her decisions, that she never had a say, and now that she is empowered and sticking up for herself I no longer like her or the r/s.  Says that i only want a passive woman who would role over.

Frankly thats complete BS, most of the time i would have to take care of something or make a decision because she wouldnt/couldnt. Of course whatever choice i made was wrong and i would certainly hear about it.

Good job though sticking your guns and getting a better fit for D12’s therapy.

Jeffree, you make a great point. If thats how she feels about sonething like divorce... .thats how she’ll go through eveverything. Conflict and chaos. I’m all set with that!

It is remarkable.  I have watched us make couples decisions for years, and have adapted over time, but it still is impossible.  When we were young, I probably was fully half the problem.  I had a lot to learn.  I'm still a big part of the problem, I'm sure, but I believe that her inability to have a rational discussion, manage emotions, see me realistically, and all of the other things that go along with BPD are crippling.  She does give in to me sometimes.  But what I'd rather have her do is to calmly assert herself for what she needs and we could talk it out.  She also completely is not remembering all of the times she terrorized me into getting her way.  For me to say what I want and need, even in the gentlest way, feels overbearing and threatening to her.  The only way she knows how to deal with it is to totally give in, or go into full combat mode.

So, she is remembering all the times that she gave in, and forgetting all the times she went into full combat.  In her mind, she is the aggrieved party.  As much as I know about BPD, it is still stunning and awfully sad for all of us.

WW

Hey, ozmatoz:

How have things been going for you since you last shared?

We are here if you need to talk. I hope things are going okay.


-Speck

Hey Speck, thanks for checking in.

How are things?  I just keep digging myself new holes to fall down.  Her recycle attempts are just insane.  I have no idea how to stay out of these messes she makes everywhere. I've never in my life seen her this willing to admit wrong doing to just about anything I throw out there.

She is all over me.  When I ask for a bit of breathing room she starts crying saying that she knows touch is my love language and she ignored it for far too long...   The pressure to intimate is ridiculous, she follows me around the house like a lost puppy.
She talks about crazy sexual things and won't stop sending explicit pictures of herself.  Its frankly a bit creepy.

I've never been painted so "white" in my life and I know the other shoe is going to drop any moment and my anxiety is at a ridiculous all time high.  It is taken a physical toll on my, when my stress levels hit critical mass my whole body starts to cramp and I am in a lot of real physical pain.  Couple that with the emotional hurt, well its tough some days.

I've filed for divorce, she's received the papers, signed and acknowledges that we have a court date in 3 weeks yet refuses to talk about any details of separating.  On one hand she cries about spending money on the lawyers and why can't we just work some things out between ourselves. To save money I was the one that suggested mediators not lawyers, she was the one that said no she wanted a lawyer on "her side".  Now collectively $15k in... .but its my fault that we have lawyers and spending all this money.

This is where things start to get dangerous though... .  When I press her to talk about splitting, no matter if its during an argument or a time when she's relatively calm she flat out refuses to hear any of it.  She continues to tell me that we can work it out and that I owe her and our kids another chance. Again.  And again after that.  She tells me she knows I still love her and this will work out.  She continues to ask me what it would take for me to stay.  Finally I asked her what would it take for her to let go and she replied with: "I will NEVER let go.  I will NEVER let go of you.  I REFUSE to let go.  I love you unconditionally".  I'm not sure what is going to happen as we get closer to our court date... .

She asked to meet for a drink after work last night because my mother was watching the kids.  At first I said no because she was posing it as a date with her to enjoy life, love and each others company together... .  Eventually she relented and said fine, just meet me for a drink they have your favorite beer on tap and the kids already ate dinner.  Only to find out later she was telling all her friends she was out on date night with her husband.  I was already there so I just let it go and figured I'd enjoy a good beer and food.  I was just annoyed that she cannot just talk or just "be".  Everything I do that is kind or any inkling of things together she takes completely the wrong way.  She seems no matter what I say or do take it as a sign of reconciliation.  It really is crazy.

We had good conversation and laughed on a few things and that is where I keep getting in trouble.  I don't hate this women and I am trying to maintain some relationship with her for the kids sake but she can't see that.  For her if I'm talking to her I must be madly in love and saving the marriage... .  So damn frustrating.  I can really see why NC is a must but how to do that living at home whilst waiting for a court date, and dealing with kids... .

My head is spinning.

I hope you all are having a great weekend.  Still cold but at least the sun is shining.

Much love,
-Oz

Hi Oz,

Of course your head is spinning, it’s being spun.  I can relate to you needing to not be at war, yet not wanting to reconcile.  I think it is a tightrope until things are final. 

My stbxh has been alternately nice, apologetic then in a rage and combative.  It certainly is enough to make your head spin. 

It sounds as if you are resolute, but are compassionate and trying for peace in your family.  I think you are doing a good job, it takes so much self control.

Hang in there, there’s light at the end of the tunnel (sunshine, not impending collision).

Peace and Blessings,



Mustbe

Hi Oz,

Glad to hear an update from you.  That sounds head-spinningly tough to deal with.  You don't want to hurt her by rejecting her, and you also don't want her going off the deep end after being rejected, yet you want to maintain your boundaries.  My stress reached astronomical heights, and my physical symptoms were extreme when I was going through something similar to what you are going through now.

One thing you could consider is keeping your two attorneys as consulting attorneys, and use a mediator to do some of the heavy lifting and save some money.  You would be able to run everything by your own attorneys on your sides.

We are all rooting for you!  Can you do something to get out of the house a bit?  Take D11 to the library?  Meet your parents for dinner?  How about exercise?  Can you go for runs?

WW

Oz!

It's so great to hear from you! Man, it sounds like you are being worked over big time. I am happy to hear that you are standing firm to your needs (to divorce) in the face of all this... .behavior. You've given it words like "creepy" and "crazy" and it sure sounds like it!

I admire the way you're trying to do this in the most compassionate way possible for her and the kids. It takes a lot of guts and resolve to do what you're doing. We are here with you in spirit, my friend.

Don't forget to eat!


-Speck

Thanks Speck.  I am trying, but I'm hitting my limits.  I drop a note to my attorney last night to do what needs to be done to speed up this process.  I don't have much left in me and I need to get this ball moving again.  I spent some time looking over old communications and issues yesterday and spoke to a close friend that knows us both well.  He put some things pretty bluntly in front of me and gave me the slap in the face I needed.  Unfortunately that means turning the screws a little tighter and I'm afraid of what will happen next.

When things were at their worst after the DV incident I did stop eating and lost about 15lbs (I'm already thin).  Trying to at the very least keep snacking throughout the day.

WW, thanks for the ideas on the mediator, I think at this point involving yet 1 more person that my wife is bound to mistrust will only drag things out longer.  I did put my foot down the other night after a tough day and left the house for a few hours to watch the Bruins game.  She certainly didnt like it, but wth, she already feels like a I'm a deadbeat abandoner anyways... .

Hope you are hanging in there.

Oz,

Thanks for the update.  Hang in there, and please keep us posted.  We are thinking of you.  Things are tolerably miserable here.  I am adjusting to the limitations of our situation, and then, I discover a new limitation and adjust to it.  Then another limitation and adjustment.  "Wash, rinse, repeat" as FF says

WW