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Hey guys this is a continuation from my previous post. The link for that post is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321135.0
Maybe a mod might need to past the link to this thread into the old one please ? I'll paste my last comment here and continue on from there. Hopefully Joe, Lighthouse and Wentworth find there way over here in time along with any others that might be able to help with my slight change in situation.  

Hey,

So there has been a development today. She contacted wanting to know what I was doing over the Easter long weekend because she wasn't working. I mentioned a few things and she said she wanted to join because she doesn't get to take the kids to fun things through the week. I'm weary she never suggested anything about seeing or spending time with me, only with the kids. I let her know she was welcome to join us any time she wanted n haven't heard anything since. (which I'm OK with) this conversation stemmed from me sending a couple of photos from the weekend with the kids. I'm worried about her intention or lack or intentions, giving up or sharing my time with the kids is a potential chance at reconciliation and reuniting but its also a chance for her to remind me that nothing has changed and this is all for the kids. In which case I kind of feel like going places together may be confusing the kids, thinking are we together are we not together ? since they have not seen us together bar drop offs for almost 3 months now. Is continuing to remain jovial and not engaging in conflict more likely to let her open up at her own pace or will it be a discussion that needs to be had at some point in time? Also I guess she might just be missing family time and want to experience that again even if its brief. I feel like afterwards she may just disappear back into her "busy schedule" she has created for herself.

The rest is just answering some questions for Wentworth :P    

I see what you're saying about the 60 second date but not sure I understand what kinds of things to say or do when our discussions usually a debriefing about the kids,I feel like personal questions regarding herself won't be as welcome in discussions but I guess I will find out this weekend.

The soiled clothes were left in the bag at the daycare then passed from her to me where I found them n cleaned them. I was only making her awear to check in there incase there's others in future. Still not a great topic to talk about.

I'm not struggling with any specific tasks with the kids just the shear volume of work and attention required to keep them happy while still trying to service my own needs between work n them.if anything I think I'm losing time.

sladezy,

I followed the breadcrumbs and managed to find you  :)

On the 60 second date, I agree, there's not a heck of a lot of chance to make the conversation about her, and she might not want to.  It's mostly about eye contact and attentiveness.  You want to be looking into her eyes, not away from her at the kids.  You'll want her to see you greet the kids warmly, but then your eyes are on her.  If she happens to look nice, you can compliment her.  If you think she'll be suspicious of a compliment, you can use an engagement technique called "neutral observation."  You just say something like "Hey, you're wearing the blue sweater today."  It shows you're paying attention to her, and it's factual, which makes it less likely she'll disagree (as long as you know your colors  :) )

Great news about Easter, b.t.w.!  Don't sweat the fact that she didn't say she wanted to see you.  Did you want this to be easy?  (OK, don't answer that  )  Seriously, though, she's not going to admit that she might not mind spending time with you.  What are your plans for the weekend?  Advance planning is good.  Snacks and drinks for the kids to keep them happy, wear her favorite shirt, exercise and sleep well beforehand, get a haircut, blah, blah, blah.  Don't overreach.  Just make it a pleasant time with the kids and the two of you.  In a relationship, the one going slower has the power.  Be receptive if she reaches out, and respond enough to make her feel good, but don't go rushing in.  If everyone has fun, and nothing is said of the relationship, that's a smashing success.  If she feels safe with no pressure, a second "date" with the kids is more likely.

WW

Hey Wentworth,

Not sure if you will get a chance to respond to this before the weekend. Nothing is set in stone but on the cards is a visit with her family (which I would have taken the kids to anyway but she wants to attend)  and there was mention of taking the kids to the local Reptile Park for a day trip. Honestly I'm in two minds about it taking place. Obviously she's welcome at her family event but doing something else on my time with the kids just seems suspicious to me and has a high level to cause me hightened and continued grief. Remembering I had told her I wasn't interested in associating with her unless she's prepared to address our issues (which she isn't)  so it kind of feels like my boundary is being tested and walked on. While I can see the positives on taking things easy and going the long way around its hard not to feel like I'll just be taken advantage of again. She didn't want to work to have the family life vut now wants to reap the benefits of having a family outting on my time no less.

Kinda hoping you could put things into perspective and help restore my faith in this being a positive thing and not a mistake.

It sounds like you are really hesitant about her joining your family time on your time. At the same time she has been told that she is more than welcome at all family events. Which would you prefer? Either way it's important that you choose one or the other so she knows where clear lines are. Often the anxiety lies in the indecision.

I think deep down you know which direction to go with Easter weekend plans but are unsure how to execute it. Which will it be?

Drawing her back in or getting her to open up is something I've been working on by removing the conflict but I didn't think I'd see instant results within 2 weeks and I'm not really prepared for what to do next. I think I'm going to test the waters with it and atleast join them at a family gathering but I may not organise any activities that results in just the two of us with the kids and see what comes of it. To me it all feels very sereal and fabricated. There are clear issues and warning signs but they can't be addressed atleast not right now. Playing along to this behaviour still makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells for some reason.

Hey Sladezy,

I really like TH's question here about "which is it?"

Yes, this might feel fast, but it's also a chance for you to show your strength and your new set of skills. She might try to push your buttons, she might not (intentionally or not), but can you be the guy you know you'll need to be in order to make things work with her? I definitely get it that your boundaries are being tested, so maybe you need an emergency set of boundaries specific for this weekend. What would those look like, given the situation? You're not going to recommit to her in one weekend, nor is she ready to be the person who you could recommit to at the moment. So, what does interacting with her look like for now?

You can't predict her - so who are you going to be? What skills are you going to pull out of your pocket? Anything you want to practice with us?

Cheering for you dude,

-L

Eh, false alarm guys she's changed her mind it seems, she contacted me asking if she can have the kids on Monday to take to her Nan's. I asked about her having intentions to join us this weekend and if it was still the case. She didn't answer instead saying that I do things with her family and noone tells her about it because she has to work and wanted to go this weekend. She made plans to do one family thing this weekend which was today and wanted to take the kids off me for the other day. I told her I cherish my time with the kids and decided not to go away with them this weekend so both family would be able to see the kids. I tried SET by saying I can see she's been busy lately, that it must be hard to find time with the kids. She asked if she could join us and I'm ok this that if she wants and if she doesn't that's ok to but at the same time I'm not prepared to give up my time with the kids. I asked to confirm that this was what she wanted in regards to the arrangement with the kids and that it suited her schedule but she didnt reply. She will be here in about 2 hours and I'll just be polite again.

She also contacted me this morning saying she has some paperwork I need to sign for the child support she has filed against me. I agreed to sign it if she bought back the list of things I'd been asking her to return. She tried to suggest I pick up the kids (she does this every week) because the list of things is long and she will forget something (it's about 5 things). I just said that she has the list she can follow and I'm sure she will do fine.

Don't really know what the heck anymore with the chopping and changing. I can see she seems to be missing quality time with the kids and with her family but this is due to the work and study she has taken on. Given this situation is what she wanted, including me having the kids every weekend because it suits her working schedule. Now this weekend because she isn't working I need to compromise my time with the kids at her desire. I feel it's important for me to remind her that this is how she wanted things and it is my time with the kids. I'm very reluctant to give her certain things. Picking the kids up because I drop them back so it's 50/50, giving up my time with the kids because I only see them for half a week now.

sladezy,

Her actions may or may not make sense in the way you are hoping that they will.  Are you able to have calm face-to-face conversations with her?  Could you meet her for coffee, not trying to influence her at all, but looking to understand how he arrangement is working for her and what she wants?

It's a good time to talk about boundaries again.  When I first read your earlier thread, a red flag went off for me, because it seemed like you were trying to use boundaries to influence her behavior, for example to get her to work on her stuff.  Can you tell us about that?

WW

Wentworth,

I don't really think I could enter back into a relationship with her unless we are genuinely seeking help together. I'm ok to get things back into a good state and hope things go that way but beyond that I don't think I can for my own mental health sake. We can talk face to face about it but I don't really think it would end well because the fact is she doesn't know what she wants and even if she's able to tell me what she wants today the following week that will have changed again and I can't allow her to keep chopping and changing the kids routine to meet her needs. She needs to meet theirs not the other way around.

Gone back to working on myself and the kids, lost sight of the prize to be honest. She still seems interest in the kids n what they are doing but not prepared to assess her schedule to accommodate more time with them (if that time includes me anyway). I feel like her actions contradict her words but I can't get her to open up about it as she shuts it down by justifying it in a fairly half arsed way.

The kids are missing her alot this week especially the 3 year old but I know I can't tell my ex that.

sladezy,

OK, thanks for the clarification.  You are describing a "correct" use of boundaries -- you are stating that it is your limit on your own behavior not to jump back in if she is not getting help.  It sounds like another one of your boundaries is maintaining a consistent schedule and not getting thrown around by her turbulence which does seem like a good idea, especially with young kids.

Hope you're having a good Easter weekend.  Is hunting for Easter eggs or coloring Easter eggs an activity you plan with your kids?

WW

Hi,

Yes we did an easter egg hunt and went out for breakfast. We had a great day aside from the fact their mother didn't bother to call. I'm in a pretty furious state right now. I feel like I'm in a tail spin I'm not going to come out of.

I'm being attacked for not suggesting to her the kids might like a call on easter or letting her know what the plans were, when I made ample attempts to see if she would join the kids which she declined. It's my fault because when I contacted her mother and friend about it hoping they would check in on her, I contacted them so that they would bitch at her and I was judging her. She said she's never celebrated easter and it wasn't a big deal... .I told her she was right it's not a big deal for us bit we've always celebrated it for the kids. Then she wanted to just give up the "fight" and move on. I told her I wasn't fighting with her and I was only contacting her family so they might check in with her and that I can't control how they chose to act. Im pushing to have the kids back to 5 nights the way it was but I don't think she's going to like it.

I'm at the point where I think I'm almost ready to say come back to the doctors with me n see a psychiatrist or we're going to court. Don't know what good that will do me but I'm able to bury her on a number of fronts if I really had to. I know this behaviour is anti productive but I'm really honestly running out of options. Yes I'm still somewhat angry n frustrated put this happened 6 hours ago so I'm had time to calm n think more clearly and this really seems what it's coming to now.

sladezy, the current situation sounds frustrating and upsetting, to be sure.

The good news, i.m.h.o., is that there are likely to be a couple of areas where you can improve things by changing things you control directly.

I think you said you'd read "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend?  Am I remembering correctly?  In the things you describe in your most recent post, are there any areas where you might have been overstepping her boundaries, trying to be responsible for things she should own?

WW

Honestly Wentworth I'm at the end of my rope. I've found a patience I didn't know I possessed through this ordeal but my patience grows tried with every emotion that I suppress / ignore. I feel like it's building up until I snap. The communication techniques I've learnt just get me attacked for something else or dismissed or explained away by illogical answers and around in circles we go. Honestly I'm not sure I even want to reunite anymore. I'm still processing the effects on me. She couldn't even call the kids on easter then tried to make it anybody else's fault but her own. Mainly my fault. This kind of uninvolvement and neglect of the kids is extremely unattractive and unappealing to me. She tried to say she's never celebrated easter ( we have every year) and didn't know it was such a big deal until today. That I didn't invite her to anything (even though I did).

I've read stop walking on eggshells and I'm half way through the high conflict couple. Next I have the power of now as a way to work on myself only. I did mentions boundries and it's next on my list but I am a slow reader. I can only manage a chapter a night usually and not every night.

Hi sladezy,

OK, then a high priority is reducing your frustration levels and reducing wasted energy.  Boundaries can help with this.  If you're used to feeling like you're the only functioning person in the relationship, it's easy to try to carry your burdens as well as hers.  This is exhausting.  Calling two of her family members to try to get her to do what she was responsible for is a prime example of this.  You expended extra energy, and exposed yourself to negativity from three separate people for getting involved.  Part of boundaries is not taking ownership for something someone else ought to own.  It can mean letting them fail, which is hard to watch.  We don't do it with vindictiveness or pleasure in watching them fail, but with the knowledge that if we keep covering for them, we're both perpetuating the myth that we're responsible for all failures, and we're also preventing them from learning from the consequences of their actions.

One other thing that can be very helpful is to separate out near term stumbles from what you're looking for in the long term.  Regardless of whether you get back together with her, you've got a long term goal for your kids to have a the best relationship possible with a mom who is as functional as possible.  If she stumbles or lets them down here and there on the way to that long term goal, that may be something that you have to let happen.  It doesn't prevent you from providing a friendly assist every so often, like a "non" might do for another "non," but she has to own her stuff.

Can you think of any caretaking behaviors you can back away from that might leave ownership more firmly with her for her stuff, and let you relax a bit?

I completely understand your point about her feeling unattractive to you as a partner if she is not stepping up for your kids.  Have you thought about switching into a "neutral" energy preservation mode, where you continue with neutral to slightly warm interactions as a cordial parenting partner, but free yourself from worrying about the future of the relationship for a certain period of time, concentrating on smooth co-parenting with appropriate boundaries?

WW

Wentworth, she simply will not own her own stuff, that's too logical for her, as I said there is an excuse or someone else causing everything to happen. I contacted her mum and friend as a way of saying "here is a prime example of what I'm really dealing with, help me deal with this before its to late"

I was being neutral for the last 3 weeks that's what lead us to her asking to spend time with us in the first place, then backing out and not contacting them on Easter. I can't keep this back n forth sharade up for the rest of the kids lives. I don't know what I'm going to do. Time to back away and start again? It seems so fake and fabricated.

Understood.  It can be beyond frustrating to watch, especially if it involves your kids.  Maybe she will eventually start owning more of her stuff, maybe she won't.  But (and I'm speaking generally here, not pointing at you in particular) if we try to manage things to recover for them, we exhaust ourselves and prevent them from learning lessons.  If we get out of the way, we definitely save ourselves exhaustion, and they may start owning their own stuff, but that's not our responsibility.

A big part of this is that you're getting more parenting than you bargained for.  You signed up to do this with a 50/50 partner, and that's not what you got.  ":)isappointment" doesn't begin to describe it.  I'm not sure what the best polite word is.  It's certainly not fair, and I'm sorry.


How did that go?  Does either have the potential to engage with her and be a positive, stabilizing influence without you having to direct the show?  My thoughts on this I think depend on the workload for you.  If you don't have to talk to them much, they see at least some important parts of the situation similarly, and their influence on her is helpful, that could be good.  If you are frequently communicating with them for any reason, especially for problem solving, that seems like a sign of caretaking and too much ownership/workload for you.


Honestly, I'm in the middle of developing a co-parenting relationship with my separated wife right now as well.  It can be super confusing.  I want us to have a cordial, constructive parenting collaboration regardless of the future of the relationship, since that's best for the kids, and I'm hoping more comfortable for us.  But I'm not sure if it's possible.  And I think both of us are confused by it, since if we're nice to each other, it makes it feel like we're getting back together.  The idea of being nice to each other and still being split apart is kind of weird and hard to wrap my head around.  Is that about where you are?

WW

Hey sladezy,

I'm just getting caught up with your story - I'm really sorry you're going through all of this. I can really relate to all the twisting and compromising and effort you're putting in to make sure you provide the absolute best situation for your kids. Kudos to you for that mindset.

I want to give another perspective on what I'm reading here. A great deal of what I'm reading from you seems to be a deep, consuming frustration with your wife's inability to change. She refuses to connect with her kids. She refuses to engage in productive dialog with you. She creates situation after situation that bothers the he! out of you and then steps away while you're left spinning. OH BOY can I empathize with you on this. When our daughter was first born, I can't tell you how many times I went to her mother and said "CAN'T YOU SEE THIS? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW MUCH YOUR DAUGHTER IS SCREWING THINGS UP?" This same mindset is exactly how I found "Stop Walking on Eggshells"

Here's something others have asked and I'd challenge you to really sit down and think about this:

What's important to YOU. Personally. I'm not asking things like "I want my ex to get healthy" (you can't control that). I'm not asking things like "I want my ex to care about her children" (you can't control that). Imagine that the rest of the world is doing what they're doing, and you're left to do whatever you want to do. What kind of parenting schedule do YOU want? What kind of involvement do YOU want? Do you feel comfortable with the current mutual agreement you have right now with your ex? Do you want to get some legal certainty around the situation? Are you in a good financial position? Are there things you want to improve in that regard?

My suggestion is to think all about yourself (there's a difference between thinking about yourself and being selfish - one does not lead to the other, trust me). Let us know what you come up with.

daddybear, thanks for jumping in.

Sounds like you've been in a similar place to me, have things turned out better for you? The things I find important is a tough one, I'm not sure if this means mentally or physically etc. Most important to be is the health, safety and security of my family. What gives or had given me great pride was being able to provide an environment where my kids can florist, have the things they need and be happy. Will the split of my family be it permanent or temporary which is unbeknown to me at this time. It feels like my morals and believes are being threatened, compromised and torn apart. I was raised to resolve our differences and become closer and stronger for it, she unfortunately has not had a similar example set for her and the easy road seems to always be the one that is travelled (I know I can't control this). Being a provider is important to me and thus I've thrown myself into my career and achieved what I would describe as results I am proud of myself for even if that meant sacrificing some family time or being tired and overworked at time. I'm starting to realise what is truely important and adapt a healthier work life balance. Pre-children I enjoyed riding my mountain bike, video games, seeing friends more regularly, golf, woodwork, playing music (though I did stop that when I started sinking more energy into my career instead of playing in bands, drinking and doing drugs over excessively). I also enjoy animals, dogs n fish. These last few things are more hobbies and interests that I rarely have time for and there is really no time in my schedule to make the time to be overly commited to any one thing for extended periods of time, I'm mostly ok with that, I do get enjoyment and fulfillment from my career and until recently my family.

Wentworth,

I got backlash from my ex for engaging these people and now that I think about it they probably did jump down her throat. I do spend to much time keeping her mum in the loop which is good and bad, she can exaggerated messages both ways. Her friend and family seem happy to just sit back n watch the train wreck unfold which is the absolute most frustrating thing in the world. At the moment my ex plain n simply does not agree with my point of view on the matters surrounding her mental health and I feel like encouragement from her friends n family would really help even the score at the moment. I know they are there to catch her when and if she falls, I've always learnt the prevention is better than a cure.

I would say I'm in similar place to where you are in organising the children's needs. The cordial part of this for me is over shadowed by her never giving the relationship a chance to be mended and address any issues that she had, it was just seemingly fine one day and turmoil the next. I feel as if at the present time the kids needs are being met (atleast by me) and her to an extent and feel like some attention towards or relationship is due. To me the co parenting feels like the final nail in the coffin for our relationship and a very permanent solution without ever giving any consideration to the fallout and how it effects all our lives from now until forever.

Just going to conclude with an update on the situation. We had been arguing / trying to talk through some things for the last few days over text and I had mentioned I wanted the kids back an extra day. It also came up in conversation by me if she was still seeing her psychologist. I'm almost certain she had only been twice and not continued. I explained that this was upsetting for me because I felt like it wasn't been taken seriously. Anyway she told me she wanted to see the kids more not less even if that meant taking something off her loaded plate and not getting another day off me (which I think could help for her and the kids). Also that she "would soon book a session with her councillor and ask her to do a thorough check-up of her mental health and if she couldn't do it to get her to refer her to someone else, that she didn't think she has problems that I think she has but she would do it to ease my mind". I found it abit frustrating that she would describe such a think in terms of a dental appointment like something like this could be assessed in a 30 minute session. Nevertheless I didn't make comment on such a thing and took it as a positive thing. I suggested her returning to the doctor first for a referral because in the event her councillor couldn't do it she will have used up one of her rebated sessions (part of our countries medical health system). I also asked if she would like me to join her at the appointment and stated that I would like to come along and when she thinks she would have time to do go. Then followed it by saying it's not about a diagnosis it's about being our best selves for ourselves and our children but I have not heard from her since and I'm not 100% sure I will hear anymore about it. I think her thinking easter wasn't a big deal and her being told otherwise by more people then just myself has potentially raised some sort of alarm bell in her head but she may still be unable to connect the dots or atleast express that in a productive manner. What do you guys things?

Thanks for the questions it felt good getting this out.

If she got a lot of feedback about Easter that could cause her to consider changing things, but going from that to a follow through a couple of weeks later is far from assured.

How effective is text for you and her to resolve problems?  I found with my wife that it was exhausting and spectacularly ineffective.  Are you two able to talk face-to-face and stay calm?  Have you heard of the book, "High Conflict Couple?"  OK, funny, I just went to look at a thread about it, and saw you're reading the book and already replied in the thread.  Great!  |iiii  Like you, I find it tough for those books to sink in.  I usually end up reading them more than once (not in a row, though, I'll move on to another book and come back).  What I'm getting at with my face-to-face question is whether you can sit and have more meaningful conversations about the relationship, getting help, coparenting, etc. without the potential pitfalls of texting and e-mailing, which can sometimes make different perspectives worse.

To me it feels like you are where I was a couple of months ago, working on figuring out boundaries.  It's confusing, especially around getting treatment, because we want to push our spouse into treatment for the benefit of the children.  This can backfire, though.  Have you thought about areas where you are clear on where boundaries ought to be, where you can let her handle her stuff, and other areas where you think you may be in her sandbox but are having a harder time letting go?

WW

Things were really tough for a long long time. I tried many of the things you're trying - I recruited friends and family to try and make her see the reality of her situation. Etcetera etcetera. It wasn't until I simply let go - I took my hands off the wheel - I didn't react when she wanted me to swoop in, I didn't freak out when she told me how horrible I was, I didn't JADE - things got SO much better. For me.

I can't say what will happen to the relationship - as we always say, I can only really fix myself. I can tell you, though, that if this relationship CAN be fixed, it will be because I did what I did and let go of trying to hard to steer it, drive it. Now, I roll with it.

And I focus all the energy I have left on my daughter - it has done amazing things for her.


So I totally get this. Making things "official" or structuring them so that they are agreed upon - this kind of makes it "real" and like things are ending. I have been really hesitant to do this myself for these same reasons. However, when you can take care of that anxiety and uncertainty about when and how parenting will occur, you can then use the non-Parenting time to work on yourself and do things you may have not done in a long time. Again, if you can feel better and work on yourself, it WILL help overall and it will give you MORE chances to decide, for sure, how you want things to work in the future.

Wentworth,

Text is not the most desirable form of communicating but it's always been her preferred method of communicating serious things even when together, or atleast to start something. We are calm face to face at a casual level. She will not discuss the relationship or treatment in person or text usually. Her suggesting she would do this is out of character (I feel like she might just be out to prove me wrong thus not take it seriously). Yes I'm really struggling with boundries I don't even know what they look like. I grasp the concept but fail to enforce them.

Daddy,

In what ways did they get better for you?  within yourself or reactions and the behaviour of your partner. Are you separated from your partner?

Overall

I told her recently I had no desire to be with her again. I didn't say it in anger it was 2 days after she didn't call the kids for easter. 2 days after this today I'm don't think that is the truth. I'm really struggling across the board again. I haven't heard from her for 2 days even though I was the last to msg re psychologist and sent some photos yesterday. Kids will be getting dropped off tomorrow and my mood is low again. Just going to go back to basics n be polite and not engage in conflict. I need a plan of what to do next time she might open up or want to include herself with the kids n I. Any ideas?

sladezy,

A few thoughts... .

Give yourself permission to be uncertain.  I can feel your angst in not knowing the answer.  I was expressing the same angst to a friend about my situation, and she shared the following quote with me:

“I beg you, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them.  It is a question of experiencing everything.  Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”
― Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poety

Deciding to live with the question for a while also is likely to help you avoid conclusive statements, like "I don't want to be with you anymore," which tend to narrow your options, at least for a while.  Next time she opens up, do what you're ready for.  If you feel ready to engage, do it.  If you need a rest, be courteous but don't take the opportunity to go further.  If she asks to do something with you and the kids, and you feel like it's good for the kids and OK for you, I'd say go for it.  If you feel you'd be better for the kids being alone with them and you need space, don't feel guilty about that either.

It took me a long time to realize that it was more about me than about her.  I had been so focused on my wife's out of control behaviors that I was thinking entirely about how she needed to change, and that if she changed, we'd be good.  I was completely out of touch with my own feelings and what I wanted.  It's an ongoing process to get in touch with that.

WW

Wentworth,

I will give that a go, the anxiety I've had in the past 3 to 4 days has been very emence physically. My mind seems to be relatively clear but the pain, aches, stomach churning and light headedness has been a battle. Even medicating doesn't seem to help much. Also at time I wonder if I should retract the statement I made to her regarding no longer desiring to be with her again or if they just going to make me look needy and emotionally unstable (which is probably true anyway) or just leaving it for now. It may put her at ease to a degree because it's what she wants anyway and perhaps make communication alittle more relaxed at least from her. It may even work to my advantage or make her rethink if its what she truely wants now that she has it. Who knows. My main reason for retracting it I think is incase it is or has caused distress for her. She's dropping the kids off soon and I'm guessing things will be cordial again n then she's gone again for another week. Having the kids should cool my anxiety down as I've seemed them alot the last few days.

Perhaps a middle ground between a total retraction and letting her remain distressed is to just be general and honest.  Simply say when you see her briefly that your emotions have been all over the map lately.  "Hey, sorry about the other day, my emotions have been all over the place lately."  You can play with the wording to be more or less vague depending on what feels best.

I'm sorry to hear about the physical symptoms!  For physical symptoms, physical solutions can help.  When I was totally wigging out recently, with many physical symptoms, my therapist said to get into nature -- walk in a park with big trees, walk barefoot in the grass, do yard work in the dirt.  Try a hot bath, even if that's not a guy thing, or a long hot shower.  You might search for recordings with guided imagery for pain.  If I'm experiencing physical pain in a session my therapist talks me through guided imagery to reduce the pain.  Do you have any friends with large dogs you can borrow?  The kids might enjoy it, and anything over 70 pounds is pretty good for hugging

WW

Wentworth,

Yeah I've got a big dog myself :) I've been neglecting the physical stuff lately except when I'm with the kids obviously. They are good for me. She dropped the kids off and things were ok until I asked for the blue book, she got very frustrated and attacking after that without coming up with a solution. All the text discussions from the weekend she basically repeated word for word defensively and blaming me again. Then expressed that I have motives to take the kids from her, that I'm trying to make her look like a bad mother. I didn't get defensive but my emotions were preventing me from communicating as clear and we'll as I would like. I tried to valid where I could but again clouded.

I think we are both abit frustrated at each other (possibly feeling similar) most of the things she's holding against me ain't legitimate or are areas where I've chosen to stand my ground. We both want more time with the kids, I tried to suggest we find ways we can both have that without fighting over them (hopefully this doesn't lead to fighting). So things didn't go back to cordial as I had presumed and aimed to remain. I also didn't fly off the handle and tried to bring the topic back to the discussion, though nothing was resolved. I think I might have still been justifying or defending myself (but not in a defensive way).

It appeared to me afterwards that the things she is resisting to do for me (things I've requested from her) are being withheld because of things that I refused to give to her and tried to use as bargaining tools to get the things I wanted weeks after she continued not to give them to me. She's trying to paint the situation as if I started the behaviour.  Does she really believe this is the way it went? I'd find it hard not to justify and defend my position in this area. I've not refused anything from her I've simply said I will do them as soon as she had fulfilled my previous requests. Her child support has gone through so I don't know why she's still making a big song n dance about it. She carried on with lies about neededthe birth certificate or a copy of it and she already had acopy the whole time. Is this all made up conflict at her end or how she sees the events? I really don't like being treated this way and can only imagine what she's telling her friends (no wonder they are so supportive of her since I'm such a bad person). How can things possibly get better if this is what I'm up against. I know for certain she's incorrect in her reasoning and tail of events but I don't have a clue what to do about it. It becomes hard when you come to heads about something and she can't see things clearly as they are. I'm not letting these things she's saying take ownership of who I really am or what I really know but how do you come to a resolution under these circumstances?

It sounds like emotions are high, and there are several contentious issues.

Be very wary about tying together things that are not connected.  If you say something like "I'll give you back X and Y if you give me back A and B," you're headed for trouble.

Since my wife and I have been separated, anything she has asked for that has been easy for me to do for her, where the cost to me is low and the benefit to her is high, I've done, and done fast.  If I want her to do something for me, I'm hoping to have banked enough goodwill with her so that she'll want to do it.  Here's why this is important -- this is not a business transaction with a rational person who can horse trade with you.  You are dealing with someone with an emotional disability.  And even in business or in a non-BPD relationship, working on goodwill instead of horse trading works better.  When you start tying things together, you get a tangled logjam.  Nothing happens.  If things are not tied together, you may have the benefit of still being able to collaborate in one area while you're stuck in another area.  And even if she's challenged, you're better off holding yourself to a higher standard than her.

What are some of the things she wants you to do for her?  What are some of the things you want her to do for you?

WW

Wentworth,

Some things I have requested
*the girls shoes back that bought them to go today are in (she sends back ___ty old shoes that don't fit them and I'm forever buying new shoes, hats and drink bottles that I never see again).
*the blue medical diary of our youngest daughter so I can take care of her medical needs (I've been requesting this since before she started making requests and tried using it for leverage). Ex for about our daughters needles and I'm worried it will happen again.
*that I be added to the daycare app which shows us what the kids are learning at daycare. This one she claims she has done after about 4 weeks of asking but I have not received an invite email. (this one is causing me a fair bit of distress along with the medical book.

Things she has asked for that I have so far refused.

*our daughters birth certificate. She made a big song n dance about needing this, then needing it to make a copy and in the end she already had a copy. I don't want to give the og copy because she can't look after it. She doesn't have her own and our eldest is in tatters.
*signing some paperwork for childsupport (even though her claim has already gone through). I agreed to sign this if she brings the blue book over. I didn't see either the blue book or the paper to sign in 2 weeks and asked if she had found the blue book at drop off this week and got 7 slammed for it. I explained I wanted to take care of our daughters medical needs, that it's one less expense and one less thing to worry about. Apparently I wanted it so I could tell people what a bad mother she is. That I want the kids to have one house n that's my house etcetcetc.

After she left I sent a message trying to validate her better than I had in person. Not that I think I did bad in person I just didn't do that good either. I said I don't want to fight and I have no motives. Lets just sort this stuff out n be done with it and that I was hoping things would continue the way they were before Easter. That I was sorry she felt like I was trying to make her look like a bad mother, however could see why she might think so. Assured her her mothering nature was part of why I fell in love with her and that it appears like we both want more time with the kids. That I'd like to find ways we can do that without fighting out them. She responded "agreed". I left it at that but heard nothing more. Today I asked if she had any ideas how we could do that. But again have heard nothing.

I've pretty much adjusted to being alone now, for the most part anyway. Still having ups n Downs. I'd still like to see my family back together but I really don't feel like it's going to become an option. I'm continuing to gain as much knowledge and understanding as I can but pat of that is learning that I'm out of my depth and that without cooperation there's 0% chance of it either. Seems like I'm fighting a losing battle to be honest. She can be very stubborn (as can I at times). To her addressing the mental health is a matter of who's right n who's wrong not to get better. I'm almost finished high conflict couple. I don't know if I should share this book with her or not at this stage. I think I'd probably like to. What's your thoughts on that?

sladezy, thanks for the detail.  Hearing it helps us understand your frustration.  Let me answer each of your specific points.  I'll do it as examples, but the important thing is to think of workarounds that are low conflict, reduce everyone's frustration, and don't rely on a behavior change from her.


I have a buddy who had a tough divorce from a woman who was likely BPD or NPD or both.  He had an ingenious solution to this problem.  He had bought a wardrobe for his two kids that stayed at his place.  When his kids arrived from his ex-wife's, he changed their clothes, washed and folded them (the clothes, not the kids  ), and then before they left his place, he changed them and sent them back in the exact same clothes they came in.  Pretty smart guy, huh?  I never would have figured that out.


This certainly sounds frustrating.  Maybe she can't find it?  What would happen if the book were lost or destroyed?  Surely you would find a way to manage.  Is it something she uses for daily care, or is it seldom used records?  Can you get information directly from the caregivers?  Basically, what would you do if the dog ate the blue book?


Yes, this sounds important.  It's great that you want to stay as engaged as possible with everything that's happening to the kids.  Do you have a relationship directly with the daycare people?  If your wife lost her phone and got amnesia, how would you get added to the daycare app?  If you're talking to the daycare people, you can say your wife is having trouble figuring out how to add you.  Be charitable.  But ask them to help you directly, or work directly with the app provider.


In my country, local authorities will provide certified copies of birth certificates for a small fee.  They are identical to the originals, in color with fancy stamps, etc.  In a situation like that, I'd order three copies for each kid, and give my wife one.  (Digression -- my wife and my daughters were always taking my nail clippers, losing them, and then complaining they didn't have any.  I ordered a bucket of 72 nail clippers online for $15 that lasted us five years.  I just gave the last one to my daughter yesterday.  Somewhere in our orbit are 72 nail clippers.  Sometimes it's nice to smash a problem with a sledgehammer :) )


Yes, so you linked the blue book to the child support paperwork.  They are not linked.  It was a power move, and power moves annoy pwBPD, women, and humans in general.  Signing the paperwork should be determined by you, your lawyer, court requirements, and best interest of the kids.


Good work!  |iiii


When she has the kids, and you have some spare time, take a look through your threads.  You are learning fast.  You haven't been on this site for very long.  You've grown and your perspective has evolved several times over.  You've still got a bunch of opportunities with your personal growth that will help reduce conflict.  Focus on that and less on what you want her to do.  You can be successful controlling your own actions.  Focusing on hers will make you less happy.


Great!  Do you think she'd be receptive right now?  An alternative to start might be to practice some of the techniques with her yourself (yes, I know it's better when two people do it together).  If you feel ready to mention it, you might send up a vague trial balloon.  Maybe not even say it's a book.  Something like, "would you be interested in seeing if there are resources to help us learn how to communicate with less conflict" or something like that.  If you mention the title of the book when she's not receptive, she'll remember the title and your goose is cooked.  You're likely to have the best luck when things are going well, not when they're going poorly.

WW

Hey Wentworth, how's things going man?

Have been trying sending them back in the clothes they arrive in, the problem is they rarely have shoes on let alone pants when they get here so the issue is things not coming back. The bags for daycare have been better organise the last 2 weeks so it is some progress there. I'm looking into getting a copy of my own blue book. I didn't realise these could be ordered. Still no progress on the daycare app I've been trying from both ends, her n the daycare but having no luck. I've done nothing on the birth cert front just yet. I've read back over my journey of my threads and ups n Downs of learning. At the moment I feel some peace, I got the audio book of loving someone with BPD it was good and I got through it quicker than I'd have been able to read it all. I feel like my communication is really improving atleaat via text. Hopefully it will start translating into communication in person.

I asked recently if she would be interested in working on improving our communication. She curiously asked how I proposed to do that. I mentioned high conflict couple without naming it, explaining what I'd been learning and how it would be good if we were both trying these things together as conflict takes two. She instinctively asked the name of the book so I mentioned she may be reluctant at the title but assured her it was about the content not the title. As likely expected she straight away got her back up asking what would lead me to this book given our current situation. I asked her to explain what the problem was as I didn't understand her concern. Rather than justifying why I was reading it but she didn't reply. She asked me to call our eldest daughter because she wanted to talk to me. Instead I could hear my daughter crying saying no I don't want to talk to daddy I want to see him. Which shook me up abit. I tried to explain that it is an option / choice if we both wanted to be with the kids every day. She seemed to think it was not an option. I asked why this was and she said while we are both seperated. I asked if she felt like she didn't have a choice surrounding this issue. She responded saying yeah, I can't have it both ways I understand this. I explained yes she was correct things can't be both ways but I felt seeing my kids everyday is a good reason to resolve or undersolved issues and asked why she felt like she didn't have these same choices. To which she said that under no circumstances was she going to put herself through trying to reconcile our relationship. Agreed she would work on communication but reconciliation and she would be out. I said that's ok I'm not trying to push an agenda and that improving our communication was a big one for us. Then bowed out of the conversation with some politness. Haven't heard from her since except the following day my eldest called from her phone to talk to me. I'd written up a message that day but I still haven't sent it. Would likely just make things worse anyhow. That's where I'm at, at the moment. Drop off again tomorrow. I don't expect any break throughs I think we will both just be avoidant of conflict n not communicate our wants for fear of starting an argument... .Atleast I know I will be.

Well I was flicking back through the messages while writing this on my phone and ended up writing the recap in a message to her and sent it included the message I wasn't going to send and the part about saying I thought it would make things worse. I've stuffed up big time here I think.  >.< God damn trying to get all that off my chest while being so tired.

As you can imagine a days worth of discussion and accusations followed this. I'm so so sick n tired of the back n fourth, up n down, black n white, avoidance, refusal, continued conflict that is our current relationship. There is nothing I can say or do to even manage let alone improve this situations for any extended period of time. I could honestly just lay down n stare into my fish tank for the rest of my life. I'm going to have to withdraw myself from her and just live with the things I don't have that I need from her.

I totally could stare into my fish tank for a long, long time!

It sounds like you at least were able to do a fair bit of communication without things blowing up.  That's great!  And, if I'm reading right, then you sent out a little bit "too much" in a message when you were tired, and it didn't turn out so well?  It happens.  This is how we learn.  Taking a rest and worrying less about things you want from her seems like a good plan.

The single most important thing you can do is to keep yourself healthy.  Worrying less about things you can't control, staying well-rested, doing things that relax you and give you confidence, etc.  The healthier you get, the less reactive you will be when she does something.

Things are OK here.  I'm not sure what's going on in my wife's head at the moment, but I'm trying to worry about that less and "do me" as I think you (or perhaps someone else in a similar spot) said earlier.  It's working pretty well.

WW

I'm spent. Emotionally and mentally. I'm doing my own thing and my tank is empty.

Understood.  Take care of yourself.  Let us know what you're doing to recharge yourself personally if you'd like to.  Give us an update when you're ready.

WW

Just purely defeated and run down. I've got back to basically just ignoring her / low as hell contact. I can honestly say this is the worst it's ever been and she is so far detached from what I would consider a reality it's not even funny. I read her tinder profile "hmu is you are a romantic conversationalist. I'm looking for an open relationship where we can chat opening about who we've been banging". Honestly I couldn't believe my eyes. This is the example she's setting for our children? And the standard she's setting for herself? I really feel like there's nothing I can do anymore and nothing I can learn that will change anything. I think she's too stubborn to turn around even if she wanted to this time. My kids are virtually doomed to become a statistic and I'm a single dad who forever has no time to himself. At this point I'd probably believe she was already seeing people before we broke up.

I've got the daycare app sorted but still need to sort the blue book. Honestly I'm that tired from work and with the kids that on the 3 afternoons a week I have to myself I just lay on my bed usually I don't have the energy or drive to get anything done unless I need to go to a shop or something to get something.

Dude. I can't imagine how hard that would be to read. I've avoided any sleuthing onto social media and otherwise because I can just imagine I would see something very similar, and I just don't have it in me.

Take care of you. It's ok to be defeated for some time. Sounds like low contact is the safest thing for you and that you're making good choices in a world of not great choices to make.

Keep an eye on the energy level in case it slips into a full blown depression. It's more than possible. I've had to keep an eye on it for myself lately. Regardless though, do you and take care of you - it sounds like you're doing a good job of it. I'm so sorry this is happening and would be sick if I saw what you saw.

sladezy, I agree with lighthouse9, wow, that must have been hard to read on so many levels.  This won't get "all better."  But it can get better.  You and your kids can get to a good place.  They are absolutely not doomed to become a statistic.  Some kids have trouble no matter how well the parents do, and some kids do well no matter what parenting issues there are.  There are so many factors at play.  The only thing you can do is control what you can control.  Enjoy the next years -- the physical grind will get better as they get older, and you'll be able to have ridiculous amounts of fun with them.  During the single digit years, they will think you walk on water!  (But they will not always do what you say!  )

This is like one of those epic sagas where the hero retires to a mountain cave to heal his wounds before coming down at a later date to slay more dragons, Romans, or whatever it was he was slaying.  Those afternoons lying down?  Absa-freaking-lutely!  Smart single parents of small kids lie down whenever they can!  Sometimes teenagers make you need to lie down, too  :)

If you are resting and giving her space, that's what you need to do now.  Heal yourself.  The things she does give you helpful information.  Look at it this way -- unhealthy behaviors that reveal themselves are good to know about.  It's sad, maddening, upsetting, and a dozen other things, but good to know.

Tell us about your kids when it's a good time to type a bit.  What are their personalities like?  What things do they enjoy doing?

WW

I'll skip over what my kids are like for just a moment as I haven't the time right now. However they are wonderful most of the time. I've just been informed her welfare payments from the government have been cut off n she now ow's them almost 10 thousand for claiming the wrong things. I really hoping this might lead to a turning point however unlikely and doesn't push her into a worse way that women can make money. That would be deviation. Any tips on dealing with this? Seems like she's going to have maybe 200 a week to live off for atleast 1 or 2 months. I've not offered to bail her out. She asked me to take over the daycare payments to which I agreed to take over payments for one child. I'd also said I was in a position to help if she was in a position to help herself but she didn't contact after that so I'm guessing not or she needs time to look at other options maybe. I think she's freaking out over it all and it's come as a shock. I don't know if she was purposefully claiming the entitlements or it was a mistake. I'd be in a potion to help if she would make a start on seeing a psychologist and take it seriously. I doubt that will happen somehow but truely hope so.

Again buddy, what a turn of events. You handled it perfectly though. As far as the kinds of things she could turn to to make money, I hate the say it but those are her choices and she might make some more bad choices before hitting any sort of rock bottom. You handled the news so well though it sounds like. Offered support within your boundaries, prioritized the kids, and didn't (in front of her) get wrapped up in the drama.

Now you're home it sounds like... .which is where this stuff is and should hit you. Let it hit you (safely). Hold it away from yourself and observe it for a second if you can. I've had many "are you freaking kidding me?" moments when I've done this that have lead to a resigned sort of laughter even. Like, really? This is my life right now? This is really happening? It's a reality check of sorts, and I've recently had to call some friends in on the process to remind me how totally absurd and messed up things are right now. It's become a dangerous new normal, and it's not a normal I want to let myself get used to.

So the hero just came down from the mountain top for an urgent memo about some destruction going on in the town. He could come out and use all his resources, which are still recharging and healing, to defend the town against an oncoming threat. But, he warned the town about this. He offered help before. He even pointed out others that could ally with him and said that he'd jump in the fight if those allies were called in. But he knows that he can't do this one alone and that very likely if he jumps into this fight he might lose other things that are important to him. So he reminds the town of the ways he would support them and offers some help that doesn't endanger him.

Now, comes the hard part where he goes back to his mountain and has to continue recharging and healing and has to tune out the pleas for things he already said no to previously. He keeps an eye on his other, more vulnerable towns (his children). But he must stay on his mountain top and keep healing and recharging in his cave. Hopefully there are some good therapists up there :)

For real though, as awful as this sounds, this is one of those natural consequences moments. She has to face the natural consequences of her decisions. There are still so many options for her for support, but you can't make her take those routes. I've spent the last two months on pins and needles half expecting to get a call about some natural consequences that my wife might have finally encountered. I've also spent that time considering that more than likely she's found some other person to come down from their cave and make things right for her temporarily. In that time, I've found some good recharging and healing space. The scars from battle are still there, but they're good reminders of what's to come if I'm not careful and overextend myself.

What are you going to do right now with this news? Are you able to retire a bit today and rest? Any good ways to distract yourself?

Thanks for the words, I've got the kids now so they're a good distraction. I'd let her know about my terms of being involved in the situation. Taking therapy seriously and working on improving our communication. I let her know that I wanted to help but I couldn't be apart of a one way arrangement. She didn't come to the party not that I expected her to. However she asked for help with something else and I just said you are awear of my terms. She then swore and sent off the passive aggressive attacks. I could easily be kind and helpful in this situation but u think it would be one thing after another until I'm paying for everything and doing whatever she wants.

Her mum told me ex might have to take the other child out of daycare because she can't afford it. I think if this happens I will have to step in and pay for it because it's not fair on the daughter to miss out on the social and educational aspects of "going to school" she obsolutely loves it. Is this going back on my word / boundries?

The kids' interests trump everything.  Make sure your child gets what she needs and fit the adult relationship stuff around that.  Part of respecting your boundaries might be setting it up as a loan, or preserving your rights in some way (it would be good to talk to a lawyer).

Regarding the expense of school, you could check with a lawyer to see if you can keep records of the expenses and count them as contributions to her if you end up splitting.  Or simply send her an e-mail saying you are loaning her the money in the best interests of your child, but want her to pay it back.  These are just ideas.  The point is to start with the assumption that your daughter stays in school and work around that assumption to get as good a situation for you as you can. 

WW

That's for the clarity Wentworth.

Things came to a head again yesterday. Attacks for not helping her on her terms, refusing to acknowledge mine. Saying my psychologist isn't doing her job, insinuating I suffer from more than anxiety and depression. Saying she wished our split was mutual because other parents she's spoken to have been able to split civil even while living together. She now wants the kids more so she can get the payments back when until now she has been happy with the arrangement. She wouldn't be able to have them more and do uni and work it's that simple. She would get the other days care and drop them off somewhere and keep to her more important schedule. She says she's getting "tested" for all mental illnesses but refuses to talk about it. I don't really believe it if I'm honest. Her mental health is none of my business. Started going on about how I'm still trying to get back together with her. I had to pull the pin and tell her not to contact me again until she's ready to treat me like a human, stop avoiding me, shutting me out, belittling me and blaming me for her own wrong doings when she wont do anything to help herself. Not to ask me anything or tell me anything until she's ready to change. She's sent 3 messages since I've drawn the line. Wish me luck.

I'm sorry to hear that things have come to a head again.  It certainly sounds like a stressful, anxiety provoking interaction with her.  You are trying to protect yourself, and that is certainly understandable.  Did you just go NC indefinitely?  I've got two questions for you.  The first is how practical that is to maintain, given that you have kids together with no formal orders.  The second is about boundaries.  When we talk about setting boundaries, we are talking about controlling our own behavior to protect ourselves from a particular harm.  Yes, I understand you're trying to protect yourself.  But could it be seen as you trying to control her?  Is it likely to be effective, either in getting her to do what you want, or in protecting you?

WW

Wentworth,

It's not practical but I don't care. The boundary states enough is enough and draws a line in the sand. It will most definitely protect me and very unlikely change her. She's not going to change. Even when I'm not suggesting to get her help or patch things up she still tries to make it out like I am. I know everything I've read says I need to change because it's easier for me to change than it is for her. I've just drawn the line in the sand. I'm not playing this game anymore. I don't want this drama in my life.

Hey Sladezy,

I'm glad you're still here and you have a place to vent your frustration. How did it feel to draw a line in the sand?

Forget the whole "It's easier for you to change." I hate that nonsense. None of this is easy. I think it would read better if it said "You're more capable of change right now." Also, what is this change business? For me, it hasn't been about changing so much as it's been about restoring myself back to a place of more calm and confidence. That's who I was when we met. I lost that and didn't need to. I could blame her, because yeah things got crazy, but ultimately I was the one who let go of my center and let my boundaries be trampled.

I carry a post it note with me in my pocket (For the last several months) that says "She's doing the best she can right now." Sometimes it feel like total BS. But, what if it's true? If I were in her shoes, I'd want that kind of compassion and understanding. Her best though, doesn't have to be enough for me. That's where boundaries come in and where, as Wentworth said, I get to choose my own behavior to protect myself from harm.

So you don't want this drama in your life, ok, I get it. You communicated a boundary that may or may not be plausible, given that you have to be in contact because of your kids.

What would it look like, at least for you, to write down and brainstorm what kind of communication you would accept from her, and then what you will do when she doesn't communicate in those ways? Is it time to bring in a third party, like a lawyer, or use one of the messaging services for parents that documents all communication?

Also, she seems to be weaponizing your desire (even if it's waning) for reconciliation. How do you put that back into your control, because it is after all, YOUR desire?

For me, that desire, despite all that has happened, comes from my values, my vows, my respect of the institution of marriage and what I committed to when we started this journey. It comes from a love for the woman I know she can be when not in crisis and out of the reality that I can be very patient when I stay focused on my work and not changing her. It comes from having stepped back, evaluated the situation, and asking myself what I could and couldn't live with. She's in no place to discuss those things and may never want to (in which case, yes, I may have to follow through with divorce). Right now though, I still have some resolve left in me even though we aren't in contact and she's been up to Lord knows what with Lord knows who. For me, I still see her illness and her resisting help for it. For all I know though, she really is getting help and really is learning to manage it. For you though, it sounds like she's still going off the deep end when it comes to communication with you and just wants to shift blame.

So, what would it look like for you to set up boundaries to reduce harm to you and your kids, without demonizing her and maybe, if you're up for it, accepting that she's doing the best she can right now. You can decide at any point that it's not enough for you, for right now or forever.

Sending you so much support man, you've got this.

sladezy, these sorts of situations can be completely demoralizing at times, and I totally get the urge to just say to heck with it.  That said, if the situation is ever to improve, you are the one most likely to be the one that makes that happen, and most likely by adjusting your strategies.  Yeah, I know, it's freaking annoying, but it's true.  It doesn't have to happen tomorrow, though.  It will wait until you are ready.


What are your thoughts on what lighthouse9 says here?

WW

Hey guys,

I honestly feel like I'm flogging a dead horse, I've tried so many different angles and she's made no attempts to change only to move on. The problem for me is the inability to communicate on any level effectively and get any kind of positive response. I set a boundary she stamps her feet, I need to address things about the children it either isn't acted upon of I'm attacked for it. I try to encourage help and I'm insulting, I've got nowhere to go. In myself im in a better place when I'm not dealing with the fall out of her actions. In regards to the communication it would more be for things to be followed through on, there is always an excuse or someone else causing it not to be resolved. The attacks and passive aggression if I'm standing my ground or setting a boundary need to stop. I'd like her to be open with me about her mental health (or atleast about what she's doing about it) which is none of my business apparently. I'm at a point now where I what I want or need is a necessity because I have been treated completely unreasonably and unless she takes a step toward making things better between us (together or not) than I'm walking alone anyway and would be far better off without her in my life.

I'll be honest sladezy, she doesn't sound like someone who is moving on, she sounds like someone who wants to keep her claws in you while doing whatever the heck she wants. Sure, she might be moving on romantically and not want that kind of relationship with you, but this kind of behavior indicates (to me at least) that she's still trying to hold on to you in one way or another.

That doesn't mean she'll reconcile, though I don't have a crystal ball - and you can still have hope for that and find ways to take her claws out of you. Remember, you can't change her. So you're flogging a dead horse with all of your different angles. I agree. Let's step back - is there anything you haven't tried to get what you want? It sounds like what you want is follow through with the kids right now. Considering what I just said about her still keeping a hold on you (you can disagree with this of course), does this change your approach at all?

sladezy,

I feel your frustration.  Honestly, lately I've been feeling like I'm in a very similar place.  I'm going to share some thoughts with you, then I'm going to have to turn around and follow my own advice

In reading your latest post, I saw a mixture of needs/desires related to coparenting and a possible romantic relationship.  Your bar is pretty high for a romantic relationship (not unreasonably so, just in a very different spot from where she is now).  It's frustrating.  How do you feel about letting go of that question for a bit and concentrating on coparenting, which still is a big challenge in and of itself?

Thinking about coparenting, do you think you could list out the changes you want to see, and put them in three lists -- one for changes you think are realistic to expect, one for changes you are not sure are realistic, and a third for expectations you may need to let go of?

Right now, I'm very frustrated with the lack of my wife and I to be able to communicate, and the poor state of our coparenting relationship.  I'm banging my head against a wall trying to improve it.  I keep realizing and then accepting a limitation of the situation, only to then stumble on another limitation which I have to accept.  I'm not going to be able to change her, and I'm failing miserably at getting her to see my perspective.

I'm thinking that I'll need to scale back and focus only on my direct needs and the needs of the kids.  Any logistical issues where she's noncooperative I'm going to have to stop being upset that she's not being a stand up person in my mind, and figure out workarounds.  It pains me to say this, because I really don't like this, but I may need to totally accept that she won't change, including her inability to see the harm she has caused me, or to communicate in ways that don't continue to hurt me.

How about your situation?  What are the things you think you may need to let go of in order to get to a less frustrating place?

WW

lighthouse,

When I said I'd tried al different angles, what I was talking about was in reference to communicating better and more efficiently, lowering conflict and trying to keep things civil. I haven't been focused on a relationship with her for some time now. Though I am open under certain circumstances to it however unlikely.

Wentworth,

My life is chugging along nicely and moving forward the only struggle I'm having is when it comes to dealing with her or not meeting her demands.

Update,

So I think I've effectively enforced a boundry regarding being involved in helping her out of her situation (maybe). The update is that apparently her psychologist / councillor wants to have a 1 on 1 session with me to discuss my concerns about her mental health. If she didn't want this to happen I guess she wouldn't have bothered tell me. But I find alot lately she will say something n it never ends up happening or being mentioned again so this might be one of them. What do you guys make of this opportunity? Have you been in this position before? I'm thinking the psychologist / councillor is probably already bias towards her views n stories.

sladezy,

I have met several times with my wife's therapist.  It has seemed helpful, but ultimately disappointing.  Your mileage may vary.  I still think it is a good thing to do.  Don't allow yourself expectations that your wife's therapist will see things your way, or that he or she will work to "fix" her in the way you hope he or she would.  The thing you can successfully, do, for the sake of your kids especially, is give factual observations of what you've seen happen.  Your wife is undoubtedly not giving her therapist a full, undistorted picture.  You can provide history and reporting, and that is a valuable contribution, but get yourself ready for the possibilities that your wife's therapist will still be mostly swayed by her version, or that even if he or she believes you totally, that your wife will still not get better.  Just bear witness, telling it like you saw it, then let go.  The more calm and balanced you appear, the more likely your reporting is to be believed.

WW

Wentworth,

I feel like I would need to spend a couple of days documenting everything that has happened in the last 4 months since leaving the house so that I don't lose my train of thought. It seems odd that this is happening now after I said I'm not going to help her while ever she doesn't seek help and shuts me out. Claiming she has been to the therapist 6 times (which if she had she would have been back to the doctors to get an extension on the mental health plan) I think she's been 3 times. Is this her trying to include me so that I will help in her situation just to be shut out again when she's back on her feet?  I don't know if I'm ready to relive the events of the last 4 months by reading over and remembering everything I can to put have a list to refer to.

sladezy, don't take me too literally when I say "history."  You don't have to write a book, or burden yourself too much.  The meeting will probably be 50 minutes or so, is that right?  Think about the three most important problem behaviors, and examples for each of them.  It's very useful for her counselor to have a viewpoint on what's going on that is independent of hers.  If you speak of her in the way we try to speak of our pwBPD on Bettering, you'll come across as pretty level-headed.  You also may get some interesting feedback from her counselor.  Does that approach sound like something you'd be interested in?

WW

Hey guys,

Just an update on this ever evolving situation. I haven't had a chance to meet with her psychologist yet as requested. I know that my ex has apparently been screened for a number of different mental issues which I'm not really sure what's involved in that or what it might lead to but she had to explain herself extensively and then answer a long questionaire to go with it. When asking she started snapping at me again so I left it alone.

Anyway she's been complaining to me for the last 4 days about how she is too exhausted to work as much as she's having to work n still struggling to make ends meet. She wants the children one other night a week so she can get her payments from the gov n not have to work so much. (personally I find this disgusting). She's convinced that me giving up another of my dad's is the only answer. I've held my ground and been explaining how I feel sympathetic for her situation but I'm not responsible for fixing it and that there are other ways she can sort the situation out. She kept pushing n pushisg but I haven't taken responsibility or blame from her as hard as she's tried to project that onto me. It all came to ahead today when asked what she had to do to get me to give her the children another night. I came back stating what me being involved in the situation would look like. Which did not give her what she was requesting however it gave her an opportunity to see the kids more if she wanted to by spending time as a family, put study on hold, work to pay of her debt, attend couples councilling to fix our messed up situation and rebuild trust between us, then return to studies after everything is back in order. I made sure to make it clear that she was free to make her own decision and that I'm happy for things to remain as they are if that's what she chose. At first she liked all my ideas except she could never enter into another relationship with me ever again but the conversation ended in her saying seemingly angrily but who knows (all this was communicated over text as usual) that I want to be together, fine, whatever, you win, I can do this anymore. Then later stating she is defeated n that she has lost. I'm not really sure what will happen next, if anything at all but I have no expectations around what happens next.

Until next time.
Sladezy

Thanks for the update.  If you are giving her choices, and you can live with all the choices, that sounds like a good plan.  It did seem like a long list of choices, though.  If you feel you are a capable parent for the time you have the kids, you should not consider voluntarily yielding any time, but I think that's already your position, which is good.

Carrying on text conversations like that is exhausting.  Are you doing that much?

WW

Wentworth,

It's not so much a long list of choices as it is kind of a pathway out of her financial position, answers concerns about the kids and unites our family in a way that I feel is suitable under the circumstances and what it would involve if I was to be part of the solution. I've really stuck to my guns and put my foot down on what I believe is right. Things don't have to pan out that way ofcourse, that's her decision and she will have to find alternative solutions ton her situation if she doesn't want me involved.

Up until this point our communication has been predominantly via text but it seems we are planning to have a face to face meeting soon and hopefully get involved in councilling.

 

 Got it.  I think we're on the same page.  You've articulated a path.  She can choose to follow it or not.  It did seem a little complicated to me, at least out here on the Internet.  I'm not saying it's not all good -- it probably is.  But from the pragmatic perspective of dealing with her, since she's working to cope, you might focus the most energy on the improvements you'd like to see first.  Counseling seems like a great idea.  The first thing to decide is what the goals of the counseling are.  If you were sitting in front of the counselor right now, what would you say your goals are?

WW

***deep breath*** hey guys, it's been alittle while and my mind has been such a wash I find it hard to remember what's happened or happening. I've kind of just taken a back seat on the situation and let it drive itself for a little while. However in saying that alot has taken place. Some of which I probably won't recall. I finally had a chance to get around to seeing her psychologist (once with her once without). It was good to atleast get my side off my chest and explain what I had been experiencing. Unfortunately based on what she had been presented with from my partner she did not sure the same beliefs as I did, however she encouraged my suggestion of trying to work through some DBT exercises and pointed out a few inconsistencies with the stories I was receiving. My ex has since come to the decision that we can make things work n need to go to couples therapy to discuss each others needs. We've been on two dates that were nice and done a few things with the kids together and I've spent a few afternoons there and not dinner. She's very standoffish to be intimate with me but otherwise the interaction are pleasant or seemingly well adjusted. However the financial struggles she was or is seeming having, have disappeared and not been mentioned or explained, I've asked once or twice about them and other things like trying to map out a plan of attack but they basically just go unanswered or spoken around and not about which is rather confusing. I'm unsure at this point if I can trust her motives or if I'm just a convenience. We are going away together this weekend where she claims she will be intimate but doesn't want to jump straight back into things at home. I got snapped at and accused of a list of things this afternoon trying to talk through some issues about her over extending herself. Which she quickly said sorry for and blamed on being tired. As I said everything is a wash lately and I'm starting to run out of recount even though I know there is alot more I can add.

Looking after myself has been ok, I still have very little time for myself but I have just enough here and there. I'm fairly resilient to alot of the projection now and don't take things so personally but I'd say I'm still struggling with wording things correctly or what to do next.

Hi sladezy, sorry to be slow to reply on this thread.  It's been a few days.  How are you doing?  I imagine with the increased contact you've got a lot on your mind.  How are you sleeping?

WW

Hey no problem.

I'm in a fairly untouchable mental state or a state of mostly peace. That being said the amount of unanswered or avoided questions seems to be slowly piling up. The holiday was nice and seemly like nothing was ever wrong with our relationship. We have booked a couples councilling session which I hope we can use to work on some better communication and whatever she might want to raise in the meeting. I'm hoping not to rush into anything like moving back in together but I feel like not living together puts more strain on the children. The financial issue that started the ball rolling on things moving in this direction seems like it has become a none issue and all other requests are seemingly being denied or ignored at this stage and any attempt I've made to discuss a plan have yet to be recieved constructively. Hopefully after the councilling or during that may start to take shape.

Glad to hear that you're doing OK.  Sounds like it's good to have the time apart, and you're wise to not want to jump back together, though I understand your concern about the kids.  A healthy relationship between their Mom and Dad is hugely important to their well-being and their future as well-adjusted adults, more so than any short-term discomfort.  Kids also tend to mirror the emotions of their parents, so if you and your wife can be calm about the separation, that helps.

What would you say are the top three things that you'd want to see improved prior to being ready to move back in together?

WW

Hi Wentworth,

I'm at a point now where I don't even know directly what needs to improve anymore. Communication is a definite though she doesn't seem interested and gets agitated every time I try to discuss what has happened and what my expectations are moving forward. I think her main reasons for getting back together are purely financial based and to make other daily family chores etc easier on her. That's really no grounds to rebuild a relationship at all. I'm constantly being faced with being told I was the problem for what has happened without any acknowledgement or discussion on how her actions have effected the situation. In my eyes she hasn't yet and isn't open to changing any part of her routine in order the better prioritize the fall out. I'm going with the flow but really hesitant. My gut, head and heart seems to think it's a bad idea or not the right time but I am still hanging in there. Even so I'm not just going to be an open wallet so I can see my kids every day and I'm not prepared to continually go through this cycle of negative behaviour and set the poorest example possible for the children. I just don't know right now. Time will be the only one to tell I suppose.

sladezy, it's important to pay attention to your gut in these things.  It sound like one of the biggest things for you is seeing some recognition from her about her ownership for her behavior and her part of the relationship.  I can relate.

I'm sorry for forgetting, but is your wife involved in therapy?  Is she doing DBT?  Is it possible to get DBT where you are?  Are you in therapy?  (Again, I feel like I should know this; please refresh my memory).

WW

Wentworth,

I have been seeing a psychologist most of the last 12 months, see has been seeing a councillor a handful of time but not really for the core issues just beating around the bush and justifying her behaviour. We recently did a couples session on imago dialogue but unsure if we will continue that or seek a different Avenue. From what I've researched DBT is in my area but with very long waiting lists over 12 months and people are prioritised on their severity. Since we have no diagnosis that puts us at the bottom of the list.

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