BPDFamily.com

I need some specific advice on what to do. I want to get back together and move forward, but I don't want to go back to how we've been the past two years. Background:

First three years were amazing, and M loved and adored me, and I her. There were some signs of BPD back then - she'd break up with me, she'd do things I thought were odd, and I have some BPD traits, mostly around giving myself up for the relationship, feeling scared that it was really over every time we broke up.

The last two years have been extremely chaotic and crazy. She left her husband June 2016, then divorce came through Feb 2017 - understandable stress and I chalked up her chaotic behavior to that. She started a new job that's very stressful as well. I am putting together my separation papers now and expect the divorce to come through by December. I've held off mostly due to the chaos and me feeling like she's not 'there'. One week she wants me to move in, the next she can't see us ever being full-time, and 'part-time is working out well' for her (that hurt beyond belief).

Every Feb/Mar she seems to go way overboard, extremely depressed, lethargic, upset - she verbally 'attacks' me - I'm a know-it-all, I'm inappropriate with her friends, my behavior is horrible, if I try to explain or challenge her, I'm 'defensive' and too sensitive. She is like that now. Around April or May she'll pull out of it, and we'll be back together again.

We're broken up right now, my doing sort of, two weeks now, no contact. I didn't realize it at the time, but I think I was trying to enforce a boundary. We were on FT, she was saying "This isn't going to work out," "I can't imagine touching you right now", "I want to date other men". I told her, repeatedly and calmly, I think we can make it work, but I can't do it by myself. She kept repeating that it wasn't going to work out, so I finally said, ok, I'll come by tomorrow and pick up my stuff from your place. Had to say that about 4 or 5 times before she finally hung up on me.

I know she doesn't want to date, period. She never has, and hates attention from men - childhood trauma, you can guess what. Her father is/was cold, strict, and unloving - EXTREMELY critical and she and her brother could never do anything right.

I just read Stop Walking on Eggshells and most of her behavior fits that better than anything I've found before. She starting drinking in Nov 2015 when I told her I'm heading for divorce (funny that she got out first, but it was on impulse, which I get is a BPD trait?). She now drinks way too much too often. But she doesn't do any self-harm and isn't suicidal, and she's a high-functioning BPD.

I now understand that her attacks were probably her projecting onto me. She's had a day here and there where she's been in tears, calling herself a loser, why would I want to be with her and so on. She very sensitive to anything where she might look 'bad', doesn't like me talking to friends about us, and lots more.

This has happened before, and last year she went two weeks no contact on me, then another week, then back and forth until around June. More bad behavior over July, Sept, Oct, to where a friend of hers said she treated me like ___.

So I backed off somewhat, told her I'm not sure I can live being treated like this - which I now realize likely triggered her abandonment script. (Though truthfully, I believe she's seasonal and would be disconnecting from me anyway around this time). I often feel she has strong emotions she can't figure out, and then looks around to find out 'why' and there I am. BOOM! It's because of me. God help me, I do love her, and I want to help, but no way can I ever discuss BPD with her, maybe never.

Last year when she disconnected for two weeks, she came back from a trip, our mutual friend told her about a happy hour for work, said I'd be there. M said that she wouldn't be going if I was there. Then 20 minutes later, asked our friend if I was really going. Then a half hour later, said she was definitely coming and wanted to see me.

One other thing - I bought her an expensive ring she wanted as an engagement ring. She kept saying it was a present. I said, no, it's an engagement ring. If we don't get married and we break up, it comes back to me. When I picked up my stuff, she went and got the ring and handed it to me without me asking for it. She's told our mutual friend that she can't be with somebody like that (who takes back a 'present'.

ALSO, when I walked in to get my things, they were still in the closet etc. Last time she wanted me to get my things, they were already out and ready to go. Finally, when I walked in, she leaned in for me to kiss her on the cheek, and she had a sort of smile on her face, like nothing had happened. By the time I had my stuff and was ready to leave, she was unhappy, but not talking.

What I need is answers to the following:

- Is this normal behavior for many BPDs?

- Does anyone have a similar experience of their SO disconnecting same time each year and behaving depressed and down and 'hating' on you? (Do they disconnect?)

- Do I just give it time? I suspect she'll reach out at some point, but is there anything I can do besides wait? I'm afraid to contact her, she's so down. Is it best to let her process and stay out of the way? Or is it better to send her a note or text every day or other day saying I love you even if it gets no response?

- Should I give her the ring back, or would that be giving in to bad behavior on her part?

- ANY OTHER EXPERIENCES that are similar or ideas of how I can handle this would be nice. Right now I'm taking care of myself, working on the separation stuff (giving my wife the house, we have two doggies, we don't want to separate them - it's not an ugly divorce).

But I feel completely helpless, I feel hated, I feel rejected, discarded and abandoned by M. How do I deal with this in a positive way that helps her first, to get out of this rut, and how do I bring us back together.

Later, I'll need help with setting and maintaining boundaries that won't do more damage than good, but one step at a time ... .

thanks!

Welcome, ABC123987!

 

I wanted to take a moment to welcome you to the discussion forums. I'm sorry for what you're going through but glad you have found a community where many of us have been through similar experiences, and we can learn from each other. From what you have written, it seems clear you will get good ideas and support here if you continue to read and post. In short, you have found the best place in the world for understanding, compassion, and education as it relates to coping with loved ones who have personality disorders.

Thank you for sharing with us what you have thus far:


Yes. Absolutely. I believe you are in the right place.


BPD behavior is as variegated as the people who suffer from the condition, however, you will find that cyclical patterns of idealization versus devaluation can manifest in two-week cycles, monthly cycles, bi-annual cycles, yearly cycles, and so on and so forth... .



You can, indeed. It's up to YOU.


I would gently suggest that you now have the time to just focus on YOU and what you need to be doing to ensure a healthy separation and divorce from your previous relationship. If learning more about BPD is part of that journey, then there's a whole host of wonderful site articles that can help illuminate for you what has up to now been a mystery.


What is the best thing to do for YOU?


What response do you think these actions would elicit?


I would think in that case, allowing her to keep the ring would be rewarding bad behavior.


As far as that goes, there's no need to delay in setting healthy boundaries for yourself. You can start today.

Keep writing. It helps you to get it out, and it helps others when they see that they are not the only ones suffering. We look forward to hearing more from you.

Keep writing, keep processing, keep learning!


-Speck

Thank you for the wonderful welcome; I'm thrilled to have found somewhere to better understand BPD and get advice from people who understand and have experience with it.

ON THE SEPARATION / DIVORCE ISSUE

I have lots of support for the separation and divorce not just from my family but from my wife's family(!). My sisters-in-law and cousins-in-law have all told me individually that while they love their sister/aunt, they grew up with her, they know how she is, they're surprised I stayed this long, and that I'll always be family to them. That's a tremendous help. The separation and divorce won't be as traumatic as it could have been as the groundwork has been laid for the past 6 years. She has adult children, I have no children. If it weren't for the doggies, I would have pulled the trigger on this a few years ago.

ON THE BREAK UP

I am definitely taking this time for myself, and taking care of myself. I’m getting over my Stockholm syndrome and the guilt that came from the personal attacks and resulted in me feeling more and more like I was the problem. Reading Stop Walking on Eggshells has made me understand that she wasn’t doing it intentionally and there was no maliciousness involved.

HOWEVER, I am very concerned about myself in one particular area: If I don’t learn how to remain ‘myself’ when I’m with a romantic partner, then this pattern will repeat all over again, with her or someone else.

PROBLEM:

I now recognize I have an unhealthy way of being in romantic relationships partly or maybe mostly because I don’t know how to set and enforce appropriate boundaries. I feel that boundaries are wrong if you’re in love, even though I know now that’s actually not true, and that boundaries actually help maintain good relationships. Basically, *I* would feel hurt if a romantic partner put up a boundary and then enforced it on me, and so I turn that around and feel that if I do it, I’m hurting the other person:

SO HOW DO I:

1. Learn to NOT be hurt when someone enforces a boundary on me, esp. a romantic partner?

2. Learn to set appropriate boundaries with a romantic partner and enforce them appropriately?

(I’m assuming that if I can set boundaries and enforce them in a romantic relationship, then I can do that in any less close relationship).

I’m reading Anne Katherine’s book, Where to Draw the Line, and from the first two chapters, this may be the primary resource I need. I will be posting here with example boundaries and asking for feedback. I will be using M’s behavior for examples because I know them best. Here is the first:

ISSUE: M has been drinking a lot for the past two years. Wasn’t an issue before then, only when I said I was heading for divorce did she start. Now it’s multiple times per week, one or two bottles of wine by herself. When I was sitting out back with her, she would become heavily buzzed to drunk. She would often become mean at some point in the drinking, to me.

BOUNDARY: Don’t accept personal attacks or being drunk to the point of being unable to talk, or to the point of being mean to me. They are inappropriate

ENFORCEMENT: When M starts to become belligerent or mean with me, drinking or not, I will ‘detach with love’ and explain that while I love her, I am not comfortable being around her when she criticizes or attacks me verbally, or when she becomes too drunk to talk. I will calmly say that if the attacks or drinking / meanness continue beyond this point, I will have to protect myself by removing myself from her presence.


Feedback, thoughts, comments?

Hi,

Am not good at boundaries, you are in an excellent place to help you find out!

You can read my post, am in the middle of something, push pull for sure... .

We were together 10 years, separated in march 2017, I thought to work on ourselves.

My story is all here in posts, pretty much... .posting helps me.

What I am reading now is loving someone w borderline personality, this is an insightful book.

The other one I am reading is not about BPD, it's a book that a friend read 3 yrs ago to get her r/s
back on track, no BPD, 20 yr marriage on the rocks... .long story, they got back together, very happy, I think because she stopped chasing behaviour and read the book, worked on herself... .
Book is the 2nd of a set, this one is called Divorce Remedy, and she goes in depth into what behaviour is chasing behaviour and a lot of other things that we do to try to get someone back, which only pushes them further... .

Right now I am doing the last resort from that book, getting good results! have only done it for a week, so it could be to early to tell.?

Take good care,
j

Thank you, juju2. All three books are ordered and will be here soon. Well, the kindle version of loving someone with BPD is here now, and I went to audiobookstore.com and ordered the audiobook for it as well.

Your comment:

she goes in depth into what behaviour is chasing behaviour and a lot of other things that we do to try to get someone back, which only pushes them further... .

I need to change that behavior for myself. I don't like 'trying to get someone back' like this, it feels too needy and self-disrespectful. Yet at the same time I do want to behave in ways that maximize the likelihood that we will get back together in the future, or for future relationships.

I hope it works for you.

hey ABC,

Im sorry about your situation. Regarding your question about your partner disconnecting during certain times, my ex would always disconnect during holiday season or summer. Pretty much the last week of school before the semester ended she would blow up on me and then break up with me. Im not sure what caused this but it became a pattern I noticed.

CryWolf: So with your ex, it was like clockwork? How many years did this happen for, if you don't mind me asking?

UPDATE:

It's just over two weeks with no communication at all with my gf, M. I have some anxiety, but I know her. And I'm now certain I did the right thing by exiting and taking the ring back. I finally set two boundaries, and carried out the consequences when she violated those boundaries:

1. I would not be around if she wanted to date or she continued to behave this way - in the past, I would reinforce this behavior by 'bargaining' and groveling to keep us together.

2. I said the ring was an engagement ring, and said it came back to me if we aren't married. Since I gave it to her last November, she's said multiple times the ring was a gift, and I reinforced that no, it wasn't. I had thought of giving it to her when I broke up, or now giving it back to her as a 'gift', but I'm glad I didn't. Again, it would reinforce the behavior that allowed her to walk all over what I valued, define my values for ME instead of me defining my values and standing for them in a calm but firm manner.

I'm now identifying other events in our relationship that have caused problems to see what kinds of boundaries I could have implemented and enforced.

Today I heard from a mutual friend that M is upset about me taking the ring back, and that she can't be with someone who takes a 'gift' back. That's good. I'm standing my ground because if I don't and we got back together, I'd be walked all over and lose myself again, and I'm determined not to let that happen again.

I really do think boundaries work, if they are consistent, applied in a non-defensive manner, and explained in a loving way when enforced. Had I been using them from the start, I think we would be in a much better place right now.

hi ABC, id like to join the others and say *welcome*


one of the first tools i learned, and found easiest to master was learning not to JADE (justify, accuse, defend, explain). it puts us on the defense. sometimes it validates the invalid. often times it furthers a circular argument. explaining your position/perspective once or twice is good, and necessary, for healthy communication. after that, at a certain point, we are just repeating ourselves more loudly in order to be heard, and round and round we go.


low self esteem tends to run hand in hand with BPD, and these beliefs are common. depending on the person, they can be more or less frequent. it can be a real challenge to deal with, because we tend to take it personally, and feel that our love is rejected or not appreciated. the problem is that these are ingrained beliefs. for example, if i believe that i am ugly, no ifs and or buts about it, and someone comes along and tells me how attractive i am, its not going to ring sincere to me, and it may even make me suspicious.

and it can be invalidating. if i believe im a failure, and im kicking myself, someone telling me how great i am may actually feel like im not being heard, that my thoughts and feelings are wrong, etc.


i think youre on the right track here. the key, long term, is to actively listen, to empathize, and find what is driving the emotion. most of the time, theres a valid bit of truth in there, but people with traits of this disorder can be overwhelmed by their emotions, not clear on whats driving them, and have difficulty communicating them.


there is certainly a lot of "i hate you, dont leave me", low self esteem, and poor/unhealthy coping mechanisms.


i dont see BPD as something thats off one day, and on again on particular days, though certainly, some days are better than others and there can be wild highs and lows. they are ingrained personality traits, coping mechanisms, and a world view. BPD is often comorbid with either an additional personality disorder, or a mental illness/mood disorder like depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety, OCD, etc. if you are seeing a clear seasonal pattern, that might be at play, and it would inflame the low points of BPD.


im with Speck, there is a great deal you can do apart from wait, and it looks like you are getting a great start. you want to be armed with knowledge, and a very different approach. often, we have to take the lead; change starts with us. another thing that is important is to be available, but not to "chase". a lot of us get caught there, wanting to prove our love. this tends to push our partners (and anyone really) away.


im of the mind that a gift is a gift and an engagement ring isnt an exception. my opinion is beside the point, but your partners is not, and this may speak to the big picture of where the two of you arent on the same page.

giving the ring back is one idea. how do you think it would play out?


one can really only learn "not to be hurt" to an extent. its okay to be hurt. all of our loved ones (friends, family) are more capable of hurting us than anyone else. the key to me is more about how we communicate and deal with our hurt.


one key is that boundaries are not a solution to daily interpersonal squabbles, and this is one of the most common misperceptions. boundaries are a lifestyle, built on our values, that we must live every day.

this article breaks it down nicely: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries
and this workshop gives practical examples: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

and lastly, this is a very important lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

im glad you found us, ABC. there are so many benefits to a good support group, and im a believer that this is the finest around, full of people who understand and can help. additionally, are you able to lean on friends and family? have you considered seeing a therapist to fortify your support system?

Thanks for the long response, @once removed -

JADE sounds like what I need - I need to pause before responding and realize it's not about me. If I can do that, when I've done that, things have been better. I have had times before the past two years where I've been calm, acted in a detached manner, and it made a tremendous difference. I need to maintain that mindset.

Low self-esteem: I think in M's case the root of all of her behavior is 'shame'. She's ashamed at the core, and from what I know about her growing up, her father and mother, how they are, it fits. I think she projects her feelings of shame onto me, and I've been internalizing that and feeling guilty. But it's not about me, is what I'm finding out.

An example: she was drunk, trying to bum a cigarette from a group of younger folks outside the restaurant - I told them, hey, she's drunk, and tried to laugh it off. She laid into me the next morning on my behavior, in saying that to them, until I told her I was embarrassed by her behavior. She did a complete 180! She actually apologized, and I think it was because her greatest fear was people seeing her shame, and I turned it around and was embarrassed by HER.

There are other things that lead me to think shame is at the core. She would lie to her best friend, saying that we'd broken up, even though the friend knew what was going on the whole time. She is overly concerned with others knowing about her, us, our relationship. She attacks me for speaking to my friend about us and our issues, because she doesn't want to look 'bad' to them (shame again).

Seasonality: No, her BPD behaviors aren't on and off, but during Feb and Mar, we break up, she pushes me away completely, and it's the worst. I have 3 years of daily journal notes, and I've gone back and confirmed, almost to the day, when things happen each year. It's uncanny. Then I read Stop Walking on Eggshells or found a reference somewhere that a significant number of BPD sufferers have seasonal issues. Our mutual friend even remarked yesterday, without me telling her, "Gee, she did this last year. It's odd. Almost exactly the same time, same thing." That's the mutual friend that helped keep me sane during last year's seasonal pushing away.

On waiting: I'm not waiting, and I'm doing things for myself both to understand all of this new information, but also outside of that. My plans for divorce and moving on don't include her being in the picture, so I'm not counting on anything that she would bring to our relationship. Can't tell you how many times she's told me, I want you to move in, only to say a few weeks later she wants to be part-time, and can't ever see us living together. I have an apartment I bought in 2016 with the expectation of that being my 'halfway house' after I divorce. Well, guess who moved out of her marriage and into my apartment a month and a half later? She lived there for 6 months rent-free until they sorted their divorce out, and they split the two house they owned, and she moved back into the house she'd left originally.

About the ring: I agree with you that a gift is a gift, but an engagement ring is not a gift, it is a promise of marriage - if the marriage doesn't happen, the ring is not the woman's and goes back to the man. I've seen enough Judge Judy episodes to know that this is the common interpretation, not just mine. I was tempted to give the ring back as a means of manipulating us 'getting back together', but that's not a good idea. She needs to come back to this with my integrity intact, not with me rewarding her. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree on opinions, but she does not. She gets pissed if I or anyone else doesn't believe what she believes or agrees with her opinion. But we'll see how long this drought lasts. If I give it back to her, I have to do that with a clear head, no agenda, and no expectation of us getting back together again. Until then, giving it back won't be an authentic act.

Hurt: True. I need to respond to her behavior and tell her when it hurts me. I did this a few weeks ago, and it had an impact on her. I bought her a bunch of roses AFTER valentine's day, not for the day, but to make up for being silent. She and her friend said I did it just to be cheap, to get them on sale. Here was my text to her later about it:

"Sorry for the cheap flowers, btw. I wanted to get a single, amazing red rose to leave with your card. But the fascists at Safeway, the only place I could think of to go in the time I had, didn’t have any single, amazing red roses. Just bunches of tawdry ones and didn’t know where to go in the time I had to get better. Thought it was a way to connect with you and to apologize for being distant and withdrawn and not communicating lately. made me laugh but kind of hurt too when you said I probably waited until after V day to get them on sale. I wouldn’t know what they cost before I scanned them. Not really a flower guy."

She has an issue with me being 'cheap' - but she way overspends to the point she isn't going to be able to pay her mortgage. I lent her $4k to get a $9k bracelet she wanted, and when she later complained about lack of money, I suggested maybe she delay some things she wants now, like we could have waited to buy your bracelet, until she's in a better financial position. She said I was throwing the bracelet purchase in her face, yet I'M THE ONE WHO LENT HER $4k to cover her credit card bill so she could GET the bracelet!

Boundaries: I don't agree with you here. I think boundaries are a solution to daily interpersonal squabbles if one party is being irrational and abusive in a way that I can't do anything about. I think we need to know what lines can't be crossed, which ones can be to an extent, and be ready to be consistent so that the other person knows what matters to us and what we'll do. I think that provide security and structure for them. And my boundary may simply be, if you're going to talk in an angry, abusive tone, I'm going to sit quietly and read or do something else until you're ready to discuss in a constructive way. I absolutely believe that setting a boundary on that kind of thing and lovingly enforcing it, stops rewarding the behavior, or gives them a safe time and space to lower their emotional intensity, and they then have the choice of behaving at least a bit more appropriately. It has worked in the past, I just wasn't consistent in defining and using it. I especially believe that we need to set boundaries on how we expect to be treated, which is respectfully, not abusively. I'm not at all talking about being defensive, or erecting defensive boundaries. But I will review the links you sent and am open to changing my opinion on this if necessary.

By the way, if me being 'cheap' or me taking back an engagement ring is a show-stopper for her, then so be it. If I don't draw the line on things like this, we're going to squander our financial future on expensive stuff that we don't need. I'm eligible to retire within 5 years - it's not a time to be blowing money on $9k bracelets for her, and $10k watches. She has said I don't give her those kinds of gifts, and I told her you're right, here's why, and if you want a sugardaddy, that ain't me and you'll have to find someone else.

I'm not saying I don't do and say things that really do need correcting - there are behaviors I've become aware of that absolutely need attention on my part, and I'm working on it. It's just hard for me to tell which ones they are from her behavior towards me.

I'm coming to understand the concept of 'splitting' when it comes to BPD behaviors. I don't know why I'm so dense - this is exactly what she's been doing before we broke up, and I didn't see it until just now. I've gone from all good, to all bad:

- "I can't imagine touching you right now"
- "Why don't you buy a new car?"
- "I want to date other men"
- She starts wearing pajamas and sleeping further away from me in bed.

A few nights before this current break up, I was at her place, her doggie had jumped in my lap and was being friendly (I love dogs, and they love me), and she had this disdainful look on her face for me. Like, what the heck are you doing here? I think she hated the fact that her pup liked me and was being friendly towards me.

Last year when she went through this seasonal dumping of me, she had spoken with her best friend (nice guy, smart, gay, from the outside he looks and acts masculine) her friend had added fuel to the fire by saying HE didn't like me. We would sit together outside her place, and there would be this tension. I knew she wanted to say something, and when it came out, boy, did it. Two weeks prior she said she could see me living with her at her place. That night last year, she said she dreads when I get divorced and we argue about me living there.

Currently, a mutual friend said she can't be with someone who takes a 'gift' back (the engagement ring). That sounds to me like 'splitting'. Everything about me is bad. If it weren't me taking back the engagement ring, I am certain she would have said the same thing, but around some other action I did or didn't take.

Am I on point here? Is this 'splitting' behavior? Because what threw me last year, this year and at other times was how I was  this horrible person, all bad, who couldn't close a bathroom cabinet (heard about that for a week). There was nothing good to say about me during these times.

My usual reaction was to be over-jovial, to compensate, to become  defensive when the splitting came out in words and she 'attacked' me for some minor infraction. Some part of me knew what was going on and reacted, but ineffectively.

I kept responding to the content of what she was saying to me and about me, and not the meaning or driver behind it!

Now I think I know what was actually happening, how would I respond or behave in the face of 'splitting'? What are some effective strategies for neutralizing the negative statements, comments and attacks? What boundaries can I create that protect me from that? What do I do if that happens again with her or with someone else?

Hi, Sorry to hear you're going through this. It does sound like my situation in alot of aspects. Remember you are not alone and there is alot you can learn from this site and other mediums whenever you have the energy to do so. I've only read your main post and not the other comments so sorry if I'm doubling up on information. I can't tell you how to get your girl back or predict if she will come back but I can share with you some of what I've learnt and some of what has and hasn't worked for me.

It's important you focus on yourself and find some way to except the situation as it is now. Do things you use to enjoy, take some of your life back. You might not want to but if you just keep swimming you will get there taking a time out for yourself to get in a better state of mind will help you better navigate the journey ahead with more clarity. Remember you can't control her but you can control yourself a d how you act and react to her. I fought with my ex for months just recently trying to convince her that things would be ok, that we can get help and sort all this out, long story short this just pushed her further and further and her behaviour towards me became worse n worse, as did mine towards her. About 2 weeks ok I simply stopped engaging in the conflict even if I didn't agree with something. This has been favourable to both of us communicating better, you need to learn how to clearly communicate your needs and stand by them (easier said then done I'm still learning too). Set yourself small goals and tasks, break it down and celebrate the small victories. Don't be hard on yourself if things take a backwards step it's bound to happen. Reading the material on this site or other related texts. I'm learning to try to be more validating and showing more empathy as I know for a fact I was disrespectful in these areas during our conflicts. Try not to take things personally as hard as it is to do, you are not the cause and you are not the cure.

I can't stress enough how important your own mental health is during this time. You control you, you can lead the way but she may not follow or things may calm themselves with time and you will be better prepared to handle it the next time around. Take care and I hope things work out for you. Exercise patients in all aspects of your life and take things one day, one breath at a time.

Best of luck.

Sladezy

Thanks for the response, sladezy.

Recap and where I am now:

- The break up was 2 weeks and 2 days ago; no contact at all since then

- I've had ups and downs, some anxiety, but actually feel relatively more stable than I ever have

- I am taking care of myself

- I'm now out of the stockholm syndrome zone - I'm very happy with who I am, and all the guilt and shame I had for feeling like I was the cause or the problem is gone

I am working on my own things, going out with friends, getting my life back. I am working on separation papers, cleaning out all of the clutter that has weighed me down for so long and I feel really good. I will strive to maintain my life and my independence regardless of whether we get back together or not. This was my part of the problem - I would have no boundaries in a romantic relationship, and would make it the center of my world. Bad idea. Will always end in ruin. Have to be independent and have a life of your own.

I am spending a significant amount of time reading and understanding BPD and, for me, boundaries: what they are, how to create appropriate ones and enforce them.

It is this reading and understanding that is the source of why I am so happy: I now understand what was going on and no longer take it personally. None of it was about me. Further, it's not her fault either. She wasn't being malicious or intentionally trying to hurt me. In fact, let me tell you about what happened yesterday.

Yesterday a mutual friend texted M and said that I was really missing her. I told this friend, don't do that. If M thinks I'm sad and pining away, it will only add to her guilt and feelings of shame for treating me the way she has. It can only increase the pressure and intense emotions she can't handle, so stop. Next time I come up, tell her I seem more relaxed and much happier, which is the truth. And it will take the pressure off of her so she doesn't feel responsible for my feelings in this. I only knew to do that because of reading/listening to Stop Walking on Eggshells over the past week.

I am actually ok if she doesn't reach out to me again. I'm more focused on understanding why *I* chose to give up parts of myself, accepted her projections of me and let myself become depressed and feel guilty over it, and to fix that in myself.

My guess is she'll pull out of this funk in a week or ten. She'll eventually reach out tentatively, we'll meet up somewhere, and as always that spark we have will still be there. I'll decide whether I want to light that fire again or just stay friends. Either way, I'll do what I can to help her in the ways that work for her, without giving up myself in the process.

Right now I'm reading Where to Draw the Line - exactly the book I need.

I'm also focused on learning how to validate someone else's statements and feelings. This one is tricky for me, but I need to be able to validate her feelings when they arise even when they're not accurate. One can only feel safe where they believe their feelings make sense, and I see that as the stepping stone to, over time, easing her into looking more closely at how she feels without the fears and overwhelm.

Hey ABC,
With my ex, we would have little breakups throughout the relationship, but the huge/impacting ones were during christmas time/new years when the semester at our school would end, or around May when the semester would end. I think during these times she may have experienced some trauma somewhere in her life. I am not 100% sure why, im still learning, but these times were the most traumatic for me. This happened for 3 years. Until she broke up with me this past December.

ABC,

Try the SET method for communication support, empathy, truth. It might help with validating if you read abit about it.

It's seems like you are doing well and doing the right things. Reading and developing my skills helped give me an understanding of what I was facing aswell but it didn't make the situation any easier. It seems your already acknowledged your part in the conflict and are working to resolve that which is good. It's always good to spend time working on ourselves and the skills will see you through for life. I think It's important to remember that she is also not her disorder and she is still entitled to do as she pleases. Careful not to over indulge in the resources available, spare yourself some time to just centre yourself. For me I wanted to know everything as soon as possible but it felt like I was craming for an exam and made it harder to retain or development the skills. I set myself one task to stop the conflict and have seen results from that (we are still in contact because we have kids so NC isn't really a healthy option, just keeping it to a minimum). Now I'm struggling with what task to set for myself next. There is no play by play for this kind of thing and their reactions can catch you off guard at times. Knowing is only half the battle. I had a horrible dream last night I was trying to remain calm and communicate effectively and I just kept getting walked all over, I kept trying and slowly became more n more frustrated to the point where I was in anger again. One thing I took from the dream was as I progressively got more frustrated she started to smile more and more like she was getting what she wanted or was playing into her trap. It was pretty f'd up.

CryWolf: Interesting. I hadn't thought that a particular childhood trauma might have happened right around Feb/Mar. So far, her divorce came in on 13 Feb 2017; but she broke up with me on Feb 15 of the year previously, so it predates that. Then she was drinking and had a blowout with me on facetime on Feb 14 this year.

I'm seeing a connected pattern here - this may be why she says she can't imagine touching me right now, and why she says this isn't going to work, and why she says she wants to date other men. It may even be why she starts wearing pajamas to bed and sleep further away when I'm there (and maybe when I'm not) to protect herself. Maybe a specific trauma happened around March/April.



Sladezy: I'll look at the SET technique. I want to be able to do this in any situation with anyone, but if we do reconnect, I'll want to not sound artificial when I use this, so I'll find a friend I can practice with and practice out loud in private.

I'm not at all feeling overwhelmed with information or think I'm doing too much. I listen to the audiobook versions in the car (twice so far - each time something new hits me). I journal each morning to write down what I'm doing and if I've discovered another feature that fits the model, I'll put that down too.

I think my situation is easier, but maybe that's simply because I've become more stoic about all of this. Years ago I would be beside myself with anxiety, fear, hurt. Now I just feel content and happy. If she really does not want a relationship with me, it truly doesn't reflect on me and has nothing to do with me personally. If I thought she 'were her disorder' I would cut it off immediately and permanently. Yes she is still entitled to do what she pleases - but she was always entitled to do that. The only thing that irritated me about doing what she pleased was how she acted when I asked if she wanted to go out tonight - she'd simply say, "I have plans." and that's it. I find that rude given our level of intimacy, five years, and constant contact. My response when she asked me would be something like, have plans to hang out with John and Mark tonight.

So is this another common trait? The parsing out of minimal information? Is that from paranoia, or something else? I went to her place when she was at work one day, and the day after when I was in the shower before bed and she was at the sink, she said, out of the blue: Why did you do the dishes? in an accusatory tone, like there was some kind of evil agenda behind it.

are there any other possible triggers?

this may not apply but its something to consider: i knew someone who didnt have BPD, but had cyclical dissociative episodes that could last a few months, and theyd withdraw completely when they did.


set my opinion aside, ABC (i dont think giving the ring back at the moment makes much sense either).

my opinion isnt relevant. hers is. if you want to save this relationship, its going to require being on the same page. that starts with understanding her perspective.

her perspective is that the act (taking back the ring, or making it conditional) means you dont love her, and thats not "someone she can be with".

i suspect all of this is about more than the ring itself, but as i said before, may be symbolic of the big picture of the conflict in the relationship.

that conflict may be resolvable. it may not be. but if it is, thats going to require openness and vulnerability, and a lot of listening.


ABC, i say this in good nature: come on man! i hope you were not expecting this to sweep her off her feet or charm her  :)

i think a reasonable interpretation would be: my flowers were cheap. i had a better idea, but i didnt do it for reasons. i did what i did because i felt forced to. you were busting my balls and i hoped it would get you off my back. sorry, not sorry.

i think a reasonable response would be to ask why she thought you waited until they were on sale. then listen. after that, its reasonable to explain your intentions "i bought them to apologize/reconnect/whatever" and even share that what she said hurt. ask if the two of you can work together on this. that sort of thing.


is her issue about you being cheap, or about you being thoughtful? "throwing the bracelet in her face" is a reasonable interpretation. if you didnt want to lend her the 4k, or didnt think it was a good idea, dont do it. once its done, bringing it up just sends the message that you didnt want to do it in the first place.


fair. reasonable.


it certainly can be hard to tell what falls on who. i might shift gears from who is at fault to how can we get on the same page, which again, starts with active listening and understanding. a lot of this is bickering; normal bickering, really, but a whole lot of it can drive each party into a defensive position. youre frustrated, understandably. our partners can be exceptionally difficult.


this sounds to me like the normal devolution/breakdown of a relationship.

can you read this, and share more about the stage you think the relationship is in:https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down


it sounds like a value. it sounds like "i have to draw the line somewhere".


it sounds like nagging and irritation, and possibly exaggeration. we would need more to go on, the back and forth, in order to gauge a response.


one thing that took me a long time to see is that feelings are always valid. there is no right or wrong about what we feel. conclusions, however, are very different, and not always valid. sometimes its important to share our intentions/perspective/whatever, once, maybe twice, but if someone says "you think the sky is green!" there is nothing to validate. JADEing validates the invalid.

Thanks for the very long response, once removed! :)

Seasonality: I don't know if there are other possible triggers. I thought maybe she might be at her lowest vitamin D levels around then (and SADS having an affect?). It seems consistent around Feb 14th that she really backs off, pushes away. The fact that she 'can't see herself even touching me' in the sense of hugging and sleeping together might be about trauma in childhood. I can't fit that into anything else. Of course, as you say, it could just be an annual cyclical dissociative episode, but if so, there might still be some way to affect it positively.

The Ring: I told her if she wanted to consider the airline ticket to FL I bought her as 'not a present or gift, but the cost of doing business', that's ok. I intended it as a gift. I don't mind if she doesn't agree with me; she has fits when I don't agree with her (mostly). I then told her to consider it a business gift, which she did laugh at.

But the ring is a different story. There is history and culture and custom behind the engagement ring. It's not about the money ($6k), it's that she's the one who wanted to bail, and that's ok, but the ring isn't a reward for bailing, even if she was driven by BPD behaviors. The engagement ring *is* conditional:

"Conditional Gift: The emerging approach on engagement rings, which has been adopted by a majority of states, is that an engagement ring is a conditional gift, which is conditioned upon marriage between the parties. If the condition does not occur, i.e., if the parties do not marry, then the gift is not completed and ownership of the ring reverts to the individual who gave (and presumably purchased) the ring. Under this approach, courts refuse to consider which party is to blame for the failed engagement."

She wanted that ring, was going to buy it herself at some point for her 40th, but couldn't afford it. I gave it to her as an engagement ring - she could have refused it under those terms, but she didn't.

I reiterate, I may give it to her as a gift later, but that will be on my terms and when I am ready. If I allow her to redefine something this significant in our relationship and we get back together, then I'm saying that it's ok to unilaterally change the rules on me whenever you want to.

This is about more than the ring itself. It is a constant refrain that I'm cheap. I won't buy $80 bottles of wine at a place she likes when we're there (she'll end up getting 3 and getting drunk). On a special occaission? Fine. But every other week? Then she gets on to me about getting a new car. I like my 4runner, 2005 model, and in this city, cars aren't treated well weather-wise or otherwise. It's a mode of transport. She has a Mercedes ML-350, 2012. That's fine, it's a nice car, but I'm not up for spending that money when I simply need to get from A to B right now. So this is about her lack of financial resources, her concerns and I think shame about how she's overspending when she should now be careful about spending, and then projecting it on to me.


Flowers: No, not expecting it to sweep her off her feet. I had been silent for two days, no texts. I was upset about her behavior. I had a last minute idea, ran to put it together, that's what I could find and that's it. You're right, I didn't do it for those reasons - to sweep her off her feet. Her response also was, you only get to say sorry with flowers ONE TIME. It was not because she was busting my balls, it was because she kept flip-flopping about whether I was moving in with her or not, and I had to make decisions about housing sooner, not later, and I was getting upset about it. It was a way to reconnect, break the ice, and try to discuss what needed to be discussed. I bought her two perfect roses a few days later in a wonderful vase.

She thought I waited until after Valentine's day because she beats me up for being cheap. It just so happened that my silent two to three days happened right after V-day, mainly because she blew up on me on V-day.

Cheap: Her issue is probably with her own financial situation, and then projecting it onto me. No, throwing it in her face is not a reasonable interpretation. She said she was scared of her financial situation. I said maybe you could draw up a spreadsheet, budget, maybe defer some expenses, like jewelry you want. That's not throwing anything in anyone's face. Her other response was that she didn't want to do the spreadsheet because she didn't want to know her financial situation.

Fault: Everything is my fault. So no, it's not hard for her to tell what falls on whom. And I don't fault her or anyone else on anything. I'm not looking for blame, I'm looking to make things better. I never say things like, well, you shouldn't have bought that bracelet. That's a stupid, useless thing to say. I don't do those things, at all, ever.

Relationship Breakdown Stage: I'm not sure where we are on this. I still trust her, but her continuing distance, her hurtful comments had me feeling guilty and bad about myself. I was censoring myself when around her to prevent triggering her criticisms, and she even remarked once, see, this is how it should be, just sitting silently. I was getting tired of going over there, sitting outside and being beaten up or dealing with her anger. But I think she had a combination of me pulling away and her seasonal downturn that pushed this to here. We've broken up at least 20 times over five years, maybe more. But this time of year, it's at least one to 5 weeks silence.

We may not be compatible. That's fine, I'm ready to move on if that's true, but not sure it is yet.

Splitting: I seriously doubt it's about 'value'. Even our mutual friend didn't understand what the issue was, and has often said, what the heck is wrong with her? over the past two years. What she said to our mutual friend about not being able to be with someone like me is her still distancing herself and in the downturn she gets in over year. It is not her drawing the line.

Validating: My hardship was listening to her say something in at attacking way, and being completely confused by the outlandishness of it. Example: When we were talking about both getting divorces, she said she had to meet her father 'in a neutral country' to tell him. (She's originally from Czech-Slovak-Hungary area). Huh? A neutral country? C'mon, that makes absolutely zero sense, and now I understand more about BPD, I know that most of her statements like this are really ways to avoid the intense emotions she's dealing with.

okay.

right or wrong, she feels hurt by it, and says it is a reason to not remain in the relationship.


i agree, and i can see the difference in how you frame it. do you think she did/does?


i think that is going to require an effort to see things from her perspective (i dont mean agree with it, or do things "her way", and less about who is right or wrong. its going to require shifting some gears, as any relationship in "reversing a breakup mode" does. are you interested in doing that?

Yes, I think she feels hurt by it, but I think what may disturb her more is that it symbolizes or connects us even when we're broken up. She was over at my place for a week not long ago, and it was great until the Saturday night. She was telling me about a co-worker's issue with a minor stroke. After listening for a while, I wondered out loud if a ketogenic diet might help her recover. She blew a gasket, called me a know it all (she was already buzzed at the time). That was around 7 or 8pm. I went to bed. Around 2am I hear a glass break and she's out back totally drunk. I was pissed but I contained it. Next morning she was still a bit harsh but could see I was not happy. She asked if I was angry, I said yes. She asked if she should leave. I said I'm torn - I don't want you to, but I think it best right now. BUT: she asked if I wanted to hold on to her pup for a couple of days and bring her back over to her place Tuesday. I think the pup was her way of staying linked to me somehow. But I'm not certain the ring serves that function in her mind. Hard to tell.

Her (and her gay friend) both think I take it for granted that her and I will work it out. This was between my silent episode / roses and this break up. I believe she is shocked I ended it and actually collected my things.

About me not saying things like "well, you shouldn't have bought that bracelet": her father was emotionally unavailable and extremely critical of her in everything while she was growing up, and still is to this day. What I think happens is that I say something innocent, she translates it into criticism because that's what she's expecting. She was telling me about a facial she had, I was asking how it went, what was it like, how much did it cost. She would answer the last question. Then the next day, during another conversation, out of the blue she said, "Can I ask you a question? Are you always going to ask me what something costs?" She wasn't happy about it. But I really have no idea how much a facial costs. What I asked was, how much did it cost -> what she heard was, you spend too much money.

BTW, I also think that's where the shame comes from - growing up, she was never good enough, always a disappointment to her father.

I am all about effort. I have spent so much time on trying to understand and see her perspective that it feels like a second full time job. She gets pissed off if I ask a question about her family, or what it was like growing up, or anything like that, so it's tricky to uncover what's really going on in her mind.

BUT:

Seeing things from her perspective would be much easier now that I've tied the upbringing and father to the BPD characteristics. I don't necessarily need all of the information from her. Now it makes sense why she behaves the way she does. So now I will learn how to use SET and / or other techniques to validate her feelings and make her feel seen and accepted, and maybe we can get somewhere.

Well, that is if we get back together. Right now I need to let this play out. I need, for myself, to set this boundary and maintain it. If I don't and we get back together because I contact her, the message is that I'll always come back. I also think I need the space right now to do exactly what I'm doing, and I think the space will be good for her.

youre probably dead on here. hypersensitivity to perceived criticism runs with the territory, so to speak.

we all have our triggers, but BPD traits tend to lend themselves to reacting strongly as well as feeling strongly.

unsolicited advice: avoid unsolicited advice. dont walk on eggshells, there are going to be fires, and you cant put them all out, but its a good habit to avoid. be mindful about it:



like that  |iiii


i completely feel you on this, because my difficulty seeing my exs perspective was not for lack of effort, i bent over backwards, we all have. now you have tools and knowledge to work with. i learned the communication tools long after my relationship ended. it was easy to see some difference they would have made. i started using them with people in my life (it can be awkward at first) and even on the boards. what i realized was they work for everyone, that started to reveal to me where there had really always been room for improvement, and that completely changed my perspective on the relationship.

I think I am dead-on with the father issue. I haven't met him, but from all of the things she's said, particularly when she was sharing that kind of information the first three years, it was hell for her. Nothing was ever good enough, and criticism was constant and harsh.

Oh yeah, I've learned the hard way never to give unsolicited advice. Hell, I can't even give unsolicited advice to other people if she's around - she'll get on to me about it.

She also doesn't like meeting new people. She doesn't understand why I would talk to a stranger (hence how I know she's not going to date - I don't think she can, unlike what I read about other pwBPD). When we were broken up last year, I started going out to meetups and going out with friends and Fri and Sat nights. When we got back together and that came up in discussions, she was saying things like, it's dangerous in that part of town, you could get shot, etc. etc. She was aghast or shocked that I would go to a meetup where I didn't know anyone. I remember saying, well, how does one make friends? Everyone is a stranger at first.

I've always had awkwardness and social difficulties - meeting new people, knowing what to say, understanding cues. I use humor to get me through, and it works well. Except with her, though there are times, like when I put my shoe up to my ear, said "Hello", then handed it to her saying it was for her.

Thanks for the response - pushes me to think.

I listened to Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder on the way in to work this morning, Chapter 3, The Hidden Power of Validation.

While the chapter seems geared towards helping validate other's feelings and responses, listening to it triggered a recognition about myself, one I have never had before.

I have a tendency to be 'needy' in different ways. I often 'act' when around others at work or in social situations, and I can often see myself doing it - makes me feel like a 'fraud' and that I'll be found out. I've asked myself often, what am I trying to get out of 'acting' instead of being authentic? (I love how I minimize it by saying I have a 'tendency'. No, it's pretty blatant, obvious, and self-damaging.)

What I realized this morning is that I am desperately seeking validation from others, because I can't seem to self-validate my feelings and assessments. I don't think it's all or nothing, and I think in some areas where I'm very comfortable I'm fine, but in romantic relationships, I'm completely lost when it comes to knowing whether my feelings and reactions are valid or not. And if I'm getting the validation from the other person in the relationship, that can lead to serious 'conflicts of interest' because I've given the control of whether my boundaries are reasonable or valid and whether my feelings are valid to the other person, instead of doing it for myself. With a pwBPD, at least when the BPD-type behaviors are in play, they're in no state to validate my feelings or assessment at all.

I think this is my problem with boundaries - if I need the other person to validate my feelings, and they don't, then I'm unable to create boundaries - any boundaries I create must first be validated by the other person whom I need to set boundaries on.

Around M for the first few years there was no acting - I was more myself with her than I can remember being. And because she's been generally invalidating my feelings for the past two years, I've moved back to 'acting' around her. Censoring myself, trying to manipulate the situation and conversation trying to get back to what I had - her validation. The manipulation wasn't intentional or malicious - I think I'm just trying to get my needs met.

*What I need to be doing is learning how to self-validate my own needs and assessments and become independent of the need to have others validate me.*

This is why she says I act like a 'know-it-all' - I'm trying to be helpful and I'm going overboard trying to get validation from others.

And this is where M's and my mutual friend, L, comes in. She was instrumental in reading the texts and the exchanges between M and myself last year when M was shutting me off, blowing up over things that made no sense and I was generally a wreck because I didn't understand what was going on and I had no internal way to validate M's behaviors. That's what L did for me. She was teaching me what was valid and what was invalid. M would text me something, often a response to me, and L would say, "I'm calling BS on that. She has no right to tell you what you can and can't talk to your good friend about," as just one example of many.

L was essentially there to validate my feelings, the 'correct' ones, and she invalidated the ones that needed invalidating. Can't tell you how many times she told me to stop, that I had the right to my own views and opinions, and so on.

So, I asked myself why I needed others to validate my feelings and assessments, and why I wasn't able to do it for myself. My parents were distant, there but not 'involved' with us. My mom grew up in a dysfunctional family, and she to this day invalidates my feelings. When I talk to her about M, her response is, "There are more fish in the sea." She has so many platitudes that I think she learned in order to distance herself from her emotions.

Please don't think I'm blaming my parents or saying my problems are their fault. They are the products of their childhoods, which weren't their fault either. But it's very clear to me this morning that I'm unable to validate my own feelings and assessments because I never had role models or direct help in doing so.

It is not M's job to validate my feelings, and now I think it's best that she isn't. It forces me to face this on my own, and to dig in to my own behavior and learn to validate my own feelings.

*How to learn to validate my own feelings and assessments is the challenge.*

And then learning how to validate hers and other's feelings, the accurate parts of them, will come after that.

If anyone has methods, techniques, or otherwise knows how to learn to self-validate, I want to know. I need to learn to trust my own feelings and assessments and validate them for myself. Until I can do so effectively, I don't think I can have a healthy romantic relationship with anyone because I'm using the other as a means to validate something I should be validating myself. And especially with a pwBPD.


 

Great insight ABC!

glad you are reading that book

Take good care,

juju

Hi again ABC

What I like about that book on relationships, Divorce Remedy,

Is, one person can change a relationship (r/s).

I try and keep an OPEN MIND.

I try to remember, am dealing w someone w a S.M.I.

My s.o.
Is disabled bec of BPD.  Gets disability check frm va.

He is so high functioning, that only me, whoever is closest, even knows he has it!

He talked his new psychiatrist into saying that he only has ptsd... .

I read somewhere that therapists who see people w BPD, those therapists go in to therapy for themselves to stay on an even keel.

What does that say?

a lot of therapists will not take BPD patients.
Other therapists end up sharing all their problems w BPD patients, because they are so engaging!

Anyway, we who love them, have a tightrope act.

We must do excellent self care, daily realize my attitude, daily realize they have a s.m.i., it can become a strength.  We become stronger.

Healthier me=healthier r/s.

Help others, get into some kind of service, that takes my mind off of me and me.  It's not all about me!

enjoy, 

juju

I gave her back the ring. Left it at her place with a note.

I transferred the $4k loan back to her as a gift.

The money, the ring, the house, none of it really matters to me. She does.

Note validated her feelings about me, I apologized for my role in this, and said how I felt.

No guarantee we will be back together, but she deserves those things from me, and more.

I can now make this work with what I've learned so far, and will continue to learn.

But if she doesn't want to get back together, I have a clear conscience, I have done the right thing, and I am happy about it.

Hi A

You are making changes, be gentle w yourself.

You do not have to figure anything out right this minute.

Allow space and time.

Allow kindness, peace, calmness.

You are in the right place.

We learn sometimes slow, sometimes fast.

It's all good!

When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

hugs

juju

Thanks, but it's the right thing to do.

we have a member here, Kwamina, who often says all roads lead to the Parent with BPD (fka Coping and Healing) board. you may want to consider doing some posting there too ABC.

its really good that youre doing this dig. it will take you far. i can also tell you that youre in good company, and that many here can relate.

once we are out of our twenties, we are who we are, our personality is fairly set in stone. i still struggle with all of the things that i discovered about myself. self awareness helps us spot it, see it more clearly, and our ways can certainly change. im a huge fan of the tools here, at the top of the page, and all over our workshop board.

and one thing that really helped me was learning that feelings are always valid, there is no right or wrong, they just are, much like being hot or cold. they cant be helped. i used to judge them, argue with them, invalidate them, tell myself i shouldnt feel that way. the conclusions we reach, the ways we react, are not necessarily valid, or emotionally mature. Wisemind is my favorite for centering myself when my feelings are overwhelming.


wow. big change here. what drove it? any update?

I gave her back the ring and the loan as a gift because something clicked in my head and all the nonsense fell away. I think it was the realization of my feelings and experience not being validated growing up and not being able to self-validate now. The doubts about am I doing the right things, who can I ask (seeking validation), and all the questions and thoughts of how to manipulate things unraveled in my head and I feel very different. I feel extremely confident, I am certain of myself, I know what I want and what I don't want now, and I don't feel any urge to ask anyone about it. I think I'm now self-validating.

She called me around 5pm while doing her 5 mile doggie walk.

M: "Hey"
Me: "Hey"
M: "What are you doing?"
Me: Just finished work. Busy going through things that will go to goodwill. You?
M: "Walking the pup"
Me: "Want to meetup? I'm heading back in to work to drop off some things."
M: "Ok"
Me: "I'll text you when I get there."

She was already home by time I got to work, so went there instead. It was a bit tense, sat in kitchen while she did some dishes, but my read was she was trying to control her hurt more that anything, which came out in mild anger. She was avoiding eye contact, but clear she was distracted from what she was doing with me there.

She counseled me about her mom telling her I have no manners; that her friend says I'm crazy; that I belittle people with my know-it-all behavior; that I have to go to 20 different people to get them to agree with me on an argument (that was me trying to get validation). I validated her feelings on each one of those. "I can see how you'd feel that way; Yes, you're right, I would go to people to get them to agree; etc."

She told me she can't be with someone like that (like me). I said, "What if I changed?" She said, you can't change. I repeated myself, "But what if I did change." She started getting more agitated, "You won't change. You're too set in your ways." So I backed up and validated her statement: "You're right; it's possible that I won't change. But what if I did?" and immediately I could see the emotional intensity in her drop.

Her basement tenant came home, and we all sat outside talking, had a few glasses of wine. That went on for about 2 hours. I handled myself very well - no know-it-all behavior, no arguing, just asking him questions and cracking jokes. I caught her looking at me several times. The spark is still there, the interest is there, but what I was doing wrong was trying to extract validation for myself from her and others, and I wasn't validating her experience and feelings first.

*Being able to self-validate is critical* Without it, you'll be seeking what everyone else thinks you should do and are you doing the right thing, in a needy way rather than in an authentic way.

*Being able to validate the other's feelings and experience first, up front, as each statement comes out is key to opening up communication with her* She can't self-validate, and it gives her stability and solidity when I validate her statement, even if it's a 'bad' thing about me.

She asked if I was driving home about an hour into the conversation with the three of us. I said yes. Conversation continued. We all went inside, sat around the coffee table. An hour later, she said she was going to bed. I said I'll head out then. She said, no, you shouldn't drive. You can stay here. I said, Can I get a blanket and pillow for the couch? She said, You can sleep upstairs (with her).

Nothing happened, we didn't even touch during the night. That's fine. She's still wary, she still hurt and a bit paranoid, but it's very clear from her actions all evening that while on the outside she seems to be 'attacking' me, she really wants me there. By me validating her feelings I don't look defensive, and we aren't getting into debates or arguments about what she is saying about me.

I'm sitting downstairs on the couch now with my coffee and thinking about all this, she's still asleep. I'll hang out here until around 10 or 11, then head out.

Longer range, I'll be working on the separation paperwork, getting rid of stuff I don't need, and preparing to move into my apartment in the city. That will take a few months at least to sort out, longer if we sell the house. And that's the plan I'm giving her. My guess is she will at some point suggest I move in with her. That's fine, we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it, but I can't be the one to suggest that course or other courses of action that would cross her boundaries or she'll push away and become more chaotic (though even if such a case happened now, I know how to handle it: validate to reduce emotional intensity, then talk about the content). But she has to be the one to invite me inside her boundaries, and I think I have enough understanding of how to adjust my behavior to match what she really needs from me.

From the way she kept glancing at me when I was talking to her tenant, and the way she started talking about how she's quit smoking cold-turkey, and now only drinks moderately on weekends, I can tell we are still connected.

Oh, I didn't mention that. SHE QUIT SMOKING! She's walking miles every day. She stopped the excessive drinking. She started all of this about a week after I broke up with her and got my things.

I can't be sure, but I wonder if me cutting it off was me enforcing my boundaries: I have told her I detest the smoking, but I don't nag, and I've told her I don't like when she drinks too much, she becomes mean, and it's hard to be with her that way. I've said both things not too much, but enough times over the past 3 months that I'm sure it was on her mind.

So, positive progress in many ways :)

definitely ABC! im learning from what youre learning myself.

i tend to agree with your assessment. it does sound like there is still a connection. and it does sound like shes hurt, and somewhat slow to trust. you can work with that. rebuilding and reestablishing trust will be critical long term. central to that, you did a lot of listening.

it sounds like the opinions of others are a big concern for her. outside pressure is hard on a person, on a relationship, and on someone with BPD traits. what parts of this do you see as valid?

have i mentioned the karpman drama triangle? there is both good triangulation and bad triangulation. going to another person for feedback and to help you reflect can be an example of good triangulation. going to another person to validate your side of the conflict, not so much: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

again, nicely done.

Awesome A

Am happy to hear about the positive changes€

juju

I listened to her, yes, but more importantly validated her experience rather than challenging it or defending myself. But MORE IMPORTANTLY: I'm now listening to MYSELF. I'm able to respond in real-time to questions from her under pressure, and did that very well, because I am somehow able to validate my own feelings and verbalize a response. Before, my mind would be racing to figure out what the right thing to say was, because I didn't know which response was 'valid'. Weird, not sure if that makes sense.

I don't know which parts of what you wrote are valid for her.

I will take a look at the Karpman Diagram tomorrow.

I don't think I need to do much extra reading or understanding at this point. The biggest change as I mentioned was in me. I have zero anxiety and a weird confidence that I'm not used to. I feel validated, and don't need her to validate my feelings - I think that's why I was able to listen, validate hers, and take responsibility for my part in this without shame, guilt or upset. I'm not even anxious about her deciding she's done with me. Again, I think it's because I'm not seeking validation for myself from her, and I think the anxiety was tied to lack of getting that. I'm self-sufficient now.

In fact, I no longer have the urge to discuss anything that happens in our relationship with any of my friends, get anyone's opinion, or try to determine if I'm seeing things right or interpreting things properly.

Left her place around 8am, haven't heard anything from her at all, and I'm comfortable with that. Heading out with a good friend of mine to dinner shortly, and feel very ... .free and relaxed.

I think the key thing I needed was understanding that I was not getting validation in childhood, well, not understanding it, but *integrating it*, and I was trying to extract that from others, her especially, and that's what I used close relationships for. I simply don't feel that urge or pressure or neediness any longer. What a difference.

*I'm the one who needed fixing.*

Chapter 3  (I think), of Loving Someone With BPD, "The power of validation" or something like that. Listening to that chapter did something to me.

amazing to read the changes you are making and positivity coming in your life.

We are now back to where we were, not just before the break up (which wasn't a good place to be anyway), but back to a full two years ago when we were absolutely 'together', before the chaos of her separation and divorce over the past two years triggered distance and break ups off and on, anger, and more.

So, did I fix myself, or did I 'fix' her?

1. I fixed my own, separate problem of needing external validation from her and others about the state of our relationship, etc. I wasn't certain whether this was a temporary state, or whether whatever I did in my head permanently changed that. It's permanent. I simply don't have the urge nor do I care to justify, explain, or talk about our relationship with anyone and hoping I can get 'advice'. It doesn't bother me that some of her good friends don't like me, found me too 'needy' and so on. I simply don't care. If they're around they'll see the changes or they won't and I have no need to explain myself to them. (And I'm only explaining myself here because it's anonymous and because I want to close out this thread so others might benefit. But this is my last post.).

2. With my own self-validation issues dealt with, I can sit with her and not be upset, not defend, explain, rationalize, or otherwise INVALIDATE what she was feeling, no matter what she says. It's not about being right or wrong about things - it's about validating her feelings and experience - once that's done, the rest will take care of itself. Since Friday, we've gotten back to her being completely open with me the way she was prior to two years ago.



How can you 'fix' yourself? I don't know. But if you're with a pwBPD or not, you need to validate what your partner is saying and feeling, or it will lead to bad outcomes. BUT FIRST: You must be certain you are not needy, and if you are, that you first fix your own self-validation problems. If you don't, it will be extremely difficult to make the relationship work or be better, because you will still 'defend' yourself either directly, or by feeling hurt by them. You must get to the point where you can be present with them, you can hear harsh criticism without flinching or being upset or taking it as the 'truth', and then you can focus in on what they are feeling, not what they are saying.

There may be other issues you need to deal with, but at the core I believe self-validation and then the ability to validate the experience and feelings of the other person is where you need to start.

Over and out.

I'm posting here even though I said the last post was my final because I have some information I think may help many of you. Go read or listen to the book "Attached" by Amir Levine MD. I'm finding this particular perspective of attachment styles is helping me understand myself much better and helping me change for the better. (I'm the anxious attachment style; M is the avoidant attachment style).

As for us, we are back together, but she is still devaluing of me, criticizing over small things, but there is a pattern. This happens after we have become closer, more intimate. I know I said she fits the BPD profile, and many of her behaviors do, I don't think she would meet the diagnostic criteria. Hard to say without her going and seeing someone. However, this new perspective from "Attached" is a much better fit for the patterns of behavior I see from her.

Example: we had a very wonderful evening Tuesday, were very close and intimate. I went to work the next morning, and went back around 1pm to drive her to the airport. She was furious I had taken the leftovers from our takeout to work, even though she acknowledged that I had asked her if I should take them or leave them here for her, and she said take them.

She said she would take the metro to the airport, even though I had taken leave to drive her there specifically as we'd discussed the night before.

All of this completely fits into the 'avoidant' attachment style, and our roller coaster relationship fits the anxious-avoidant trap described in the book.

Thanks for listening, and hope this helps some of you.

ABC, I've been following your thread and wishing you well. This quote from a few weeks ago caught my eye:


Any idea *how* you were able to change in that way? That's where I'm struggling. In my "wise mind" I see that the relationship I'm in is not a good one for me and will likely never change - but I can't seem to feel good about that, and instead just have lots of anxiety, fear, and hurt, as you put it, over the loss of "someone" or the "idea of someone." And it's particularly hard when you recognize your own codependent tendencies and how they contributed to the enmeshment (we've been married for 10 years - seems like we are >< this close to divorce). Any insights, practical suggestions, etc., would be astoundingly appreciated.

You ask, any idea *how* I was able to change in this way. That -is- the right question, but how to provide an answer that actually helps?

In the following, there is you, and there is the other person. For this, assume the other person is the one you're obsessed with, because that's really what it is. That would be your pwBPD or other pw other issue(s) (go read the book, Attached, by Dr Amir Levine - attachment styles are extremely useful as a model).

1. It isn't about the other person, it is about you. You HAVE to stop making the focus of your thoughts and actions about anyone other than YOU. As long as you make it about the relationship with the other, or about them, you are lost.

2. That does NOT mean you can't and should not interact with the other person, or stay in a relationship with them. In fact, staying in the relationship will give you the ability to practice new behaviors and see their effect.

3. But you MUST be centered (self-centered if you like).

4. That does NOT mean the other person should be focused on you, or do what you want, or should meet your expectations. Get that through your head. They don't OWE YOU ANYTHING, and you don't owe them anything.

5. You HAVE to stop expecting the other to be or do what you want or expect. Period. You have to let it go, all of it. You have to learn to become secure in yourself. In the words of the Attachment book, which is just one model, you must learn to have a secure attachment style.

That will take practice.

I have a friend who is having difficulties - she is the anxious attachment style, to the max. Here is a text conversation with her from today. I post this here because it shows better than I can explain what I mean by a secure attachment style:

START OF MESSAGING:

HER:
   And I don't know if he can provide “secure” He’s secure in his own way but he just doesn’t know how to give me a hug and give me some kind of consolation. My old boyfriend max always knew how to console me and move on .

ME:
   I’m in a meeting right now, will get back to you later. Just saying that you have an opportunity to sort yourself out in this relationship, whether it ends up lasting or not. If you leave this one, you’ll just do this all over again with the next man, and the next, and the next. You’re free to do that of course, but what’s the hurry? Why the rush? You’re the one who is pissed off but you need to take responsibility for your portion of that, and you aren’t. Back in a bit.

HER:
   No rush. I’ll still be crazy in a bit.

ME:
   I believe you have really let yourself down in this specific instance. You did not take responsibility for yourself, you made him responsible for your anger and upset, and you are making him ‘pay’ for it. Seriously, he may have been a bit inconsiderate, but from the behavior I experience from M sometimes, what he ‘did’ was so insignificant it doesn’t merit your anger in my opinion.
   You chose to wait when he was late. You chose to become pissed as a result of your waiting. That’s not on him. And his phone died. I can’t count the number of times I said I’d be back in an hour and it was two or three because I went off to do other things. And his phone died.
   Even if he was being avoidant, you have a responsibility to set boundaries, and what you did instead was do protest behaviors. You said, “I’ll make plans for myself in the future.” Frankly, stop it.
   What you could have done instead, and what you can still do, is recognize that he is not always timely or accurate about when he’s going to return. You can set a boundary: “Listen, XXX, sorry I got worked up, but I really wanted to go to the gym and work out with you. I still want to, but in the future, if you say you’ll be back at a certain time for a workout and aren’t, I’ll wait 5 minutes, and then go workout on my own.”


HER:
   That’s a healthy response. I did apologize when he got here last night

ME:
   Yes, it’s a secure response. It recognizes and accepts that you want him there, but if he’s not, it’s ok, you’ll still go do waht you want or planned. Instead, in this instance, you made him the bad guy, you worked yourself up, you had all kinds of anger, because you weren’t being responsible for yourself. You are not his responsibility. If you want to wait 2 hours for him to return and miss your workout, that’s on you.

HER:
   My therapist suggested that I ask him if I can tell him when I’m feeling really insecure/anxious/crazy. So I asked him. He said sure except what happens if his phone dies. I said I’m working very hard to change this part of me. His response was “. I’m not trying to change you”. I just replied with I’m changing for me - and I would like to try to communicate when I’m feeling really spun up

   And yes your reply above is exactly what I should have done.
   And i know that.

ME:
   If you text him and it isn’t delivered, that should be an indication that his phone died. If you both have iphones that is.

HER:
   It was delivered .
   But not read
   But the kids tried to call him and it was odd
   Off * so it was dead.

ME:
   It doesn’t matter. If he doesn’t read or answer, and is late, give him the benefit fo the doubt. Go do what you planned to. Live your life.
   (Might be his macbook accepting the message?)

HER:
   It is. His MacBook accepts iMessages.

ME:
   Then that’s why it said 'delivered'.
   You need to lower your expectations, and live your life. I feel so much better now that I’m not demanding that she be or do what I want, or even what she said she would do but didn't. When she doesn’t do something she said she would, if it’s significant enough, I’ll gently tell her I’m disappointed, but it’s ok. And will go do whatever I was planning to do. When she attacks me, I know it's not about me, it's her freaking out because she feels overwhelmed and too close and intimate, and has to push me away, and she does it by finding fault in me and using it to push me away.
   Don’t make him the center of your  life, or expect to do everything together. Make your plans to include him, but when he’s not available, go do on your own.
   I could never ask M to let me contact her when I’m freaked out, at least not right now. For me, to be coming from a secure place means I stand on my own two feet and deal with s*h*i*t myself. It’s my responsibility to take care of myself, and disappointment is ok. It is not her responsibility to meet my needs or expectations. But if she can't meet my needs, I have to do that for myself or move to another relationship that does.
   I’m hopeful, but I am ready to say let’s just be friends if the extreme avoidant behavior of hers continues, or she’s not meeting my needs over the long term. I won’t have a relationship exclusively with her if she isn’t affectionate with me, and if she continues to actively or otherwise make me feel insecure in this relationship. I will be calm and gentle about it, but I will go to platonic friends or friends with benefits and date other women if her behavior is a continuation of making me feel insecure, regardless of whether she can help it or not. BUT, I will be clear about why I am putting us in the friends category, that she makes me feel insecure in the relationship, with specific examples of it. Then it’s up to her if she wants to work on it or not.
   With him, you can say, “Hey, right before I go on travel, you start becoming avoidant and weird. Maybe it’s because you don’t want me to go, and I get that. But I’m always thinking of you. When you become avoidant, I start freaking out, and I’m working on that.”
   I’m in no hurry, and I’m learning a lot. I think M and I will be fine. I’m being very calm about whatever happens, and keeping it in perspective.

HER:
   I pulled a 'you' and made him hug like a real hug. Sat on his lap. Gave him a kiss. Now I’m going to go do some stuff for myself.

ME:
   :) Worked for me, esp when I'm using it humorously.
 
HER:
   Making him a good dinner tonight. Too

ME:
   Are you going overboard the other way now?

HER:
   Nah, I make dinner for us a lot. Food and movies is what we do best.

END OF MESSAGING

(FYI - I don't consider the word sh*t to be pornographic. Whoever runs the BPD forum needs to allow for reasonable cuss words. It's ridiculous to edit that out, IMO).

So the answer to your question, how did I change: I somehow got to the point where I realized that everything is ok. If we don't work out, that's ok, and my pushing on it or pursuing M was actually making things worse. Get a life. Do what you enjoy. Grow yourself. Reading the Stoic philosophers helped me as well. There are only a few things you can truly control; everything else you have to let go of, do your best, but have zero expectations.

The path is different for everyone I think. Read the Stoics. Read "Attached" by Amir Levine. Determine if your anxious, secure or avoidant attachment style. Practice being aware of what is going on. Stay with your experience. UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE OK. Understand that you can have other relationships in the future. Don't think that you have to stay because you won't ever find anyone else. Don't make it about the relationship. Stop chasing the relationship. Stop giving up your life for the relationship. The relationship, if you move to a secure, stable internal life, will take care of itself. And if it doesn't, if it ends, then there really was nothing you could do about it in the first place. Move on if that's what happens. Often though, when you take care of yourself and become secure in yourself, it changes the dynamics, and the other is forced to change. Hard to say whether that means the relationship will survive or not. BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP. IT IS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR LIFE.

Ultimately, you have to be the one to get yourself unstuck. I hope what I wrote above can help. You have to live your life. If you are consumed by the relationship, if you are focused on it, spending all your mental energy on it, that is extremely dysfunctional and damaging to you. Stop doing that. As you become more secure in yourself, you won't take things personally, you will start enjoying your life, and the relationship will take care of itself.

I saw a movie not long ago, The Holiday, with Cameron Diaz - not my favorite actress, but go watch it on Netflix. The British woman who goes to the US trading houses, the guy she was with shows up, it's telling. Trust me. Go watch the movie.

i want to add something to what I wrote yesterday (as if that wasn't a lot already).

You have to be responsible for your own needs, actions and reactions. If you put that on the other person, or if you blame their behavior for not having your needs met or for your actions and reactions, then you are not taking responsibility for yourself, and things will not change.

You are responsible for having your needs and wants met, not the other person. You are not their responsibility. Get that through your head and your relationship with them will almost certainly improve. If you don't, you are essentially demanding that they meet your needs.

Here's the interesting part: While many of your needs in a relationship can only be met by the other person, THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO MEET YOUR NEEDS. It is you who are obligated to assess whether your needs are being met, to communicate your needs to your partner, and see if they can or want to meet your needs. If they don't or can't, then it is YOUR responsibility to determine if you are willing continue in the relationship where it doesn't meet your needs, or if you want to leave it. If you stay, you have to stop expecting them to meet your needs, because that's now on you - you chose to stay in a relationship that wasn't meeting your needs even after you communicated what those needs are to your partner, and your partner cannot or will not fulfill them. You cannot blame your partner for not meeting your needs; you have to take responsibility for staying in a relationship that does not meet your needs. In the same way, it is their responsibility to communicate their needs to you, and for you to determine if you can or want to meet their needs in the relationship.

I was obsessed with my relationship with M, I was always thinking about it, trying to 'manipulate' it, censoring myself to 'protect' it and prevent her reactions, acting out when her behavior towards me was not what I wanted or hurt me, and so on.

As long as I was focused on the relationship, I wasn't focused on taking care of myself, evaluating whether the relationship was meeting my needs, and communicating effectively what my needs were and how her behavior was affecting me.

I've always had an anxious attachment style (in the vernacular of the model used in the book "Attached", and I always eventually gave up myself for the relationship, usually very quickly, and lived for the relationship, instead of being myself and bringing who I was into the relationship on a continuous basis. That is a guaranteed way to screw up yourself and your relationship.

I started turning the corner with the BPD books when it struck me that none of M's behavior was my fault. I do think my anxiousness and pursuing her more intensely during the times she would pull away exacerbated her negative behaviors, but my actions were a trigger, not a cause of her behavior generally or towards me.

She was the cause of her own behavior, and she always was. I was taking on responsibility for her behavior as if I had any control over it. I was taking responsibility for her behavior as if what I did or didn't do, said or didn't say, was why she behaved as she did. She may have been reacting to my actions or words, but *how* she reacted and responded was always on her, not on me, and positive or negative reactions from her were never about me.

I can't make someone love me and act in a positive loving way towards me. What made me think I can make someone treat me badly and act in negative ways towards me?

Something from The Four Agreements is relevant here, the second of the four agreements:

Don’t take anything personally: Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality as perceived in their own minds. Become immune to the opinions and actions of others.

And that's 'how I did it' - it's how I changed, and is probably the best answer I can give you.

A blend of reading the Stoics, reading BPD books, the book "Attached" and probably others, including the Four Agreements, led me to the realization that I cannot control much of anything, really, even myself to a large extent, but what I could control was how I thought about these things.

I don't know whether M would meet the BPD diagnosis or if her behaviors fit that model extremely closely, and I don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with the "Attached" book's attachment styles model. But it doesn't matter, because the result was that it changed what and how I thought about my role in relationships, and my lack of responsibility for myself.

The point is that the BPD books, the Attached book, and all the other reading and thinking I've done has LED ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT THE CAUSE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS, REACTIONS OR BEHAVIORS.

In the head of your pwBPD or other, it's never about you - it's always about them, what they're experiencing, how they think, feel and act based on past and current experience or whatever is going on in their own mind and body. Certainly you can have an effect on them - if they are overwhelmed with emotions they don't know how to handle, being pushy and demanding about changing, being closer to you, or pursuing them will likely add more pressure and make their feelings of overwhelm that much greater, BUT YOU AREN'T THE CAUSE of their inner life to begin with.

And here's the kicker: IN YOUR OWN HEAD, IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT YOU. Everything you're doing in the relationship is about YOU, not them. You're the one who is expecting the other to be different, to change, to meet your expectations, to treat you better or to be different than they are. That is all about YOU and YOUR needs, not theirs. And you need to take responsibility for that.

In your head, it is all about you, and that is how it SHOULD be. You should be focused on what you want and need in the relationship and in general. It can't be any other way. No one else can digest your food for you. That has to be done by you. It is normal and natural for everything to be about you in your own mind. That isn't 'selfish' in the negative sense, so get over the BS now. Proof? If you love your partner, who is doing the loving? Where is that coming from? Who is having those feelings? Who is expressing those feelings towards your partner? YOU, YOU, YOU and YOU. Love comes from you, because of what YOU feel, what YOU value, what YOU want. So it is always about you. You do things for your partner because YOU love them. Are you getting

I will say that the Attached book's model has been so much more helpful to me than all of the BPD books combined (though the chapter on the hidden power of validation in one of them was extremely helpful to me). I had gotten to the point where I understood that M's behavior was not my responsibility, but I didn't have a way of thinking about her behavior that I could use to adjust my responses to meet her needs or to de-escalate. More importantly and primarily, it has helped me understand MY behavior, my 'attachment style' (anxious) and how I often made things worse - read about protest behaviors in the anxious and avoidant attachment styles - "Well, if you won't show up on time, I'm never going to make plans with you again." is a protest behavior, not a healthy response.

Before you say, "Well, that's you giving up your needs for her or censoring parts of yourself for the relationship," I will tell you you're so wrong. I love her, and adjusting my approach to make our interactions healthier comes from me feeling much more secure about MY attachment style. I'll assess whether my needs are being met later and will communicate my needs and how I feel with her, and will keep re-assessing. If my needs aren't being met and I've communicated clearly, calmly and without blame or expectation, then I will change the nature of our relationship, offer her the opportunity to remain friends, and date and find someone who can meet my needs, and someone I can meet the needs of in a relationship.

I no longer obsess about our relationship, I'm no longer preoccupied with it, thinking about how I can 'manipulate' the situation, no longer playing 'games' and my protest behaviors have disappeared. I'm available, non-interfering, and happy. I've moved a considerable way to a 'secure attachment style' and it has made a world of difference.

M and I had an intimate, close evening last Tuesday. The next afternoon, she was distant and attacked me for taking the leftovers to work that morning, "Thanks for leaving me something to eat; and you're so selfish" despite the fact, and she acknowledged this, that I had asked her if she was going to eat them or should I take them to work - she told me to take them to work. So it wasn't about the food, it was about her feeling too close, and having a need to push me away. Instead of debating with her, or trying to 'recover', I was calm, and when she asked, don't you think it was selfish, I said calmly, "No, I don't think it was selfish of me. I asked you if you wanted them, you said take them to work with me." Then I let her work and sat outside surfing the web for a while. I drove her to the airport (she was adamant she would take the metro instead, even though I took leave from work to drive her, but my calmness and not engaging in the 'dispute' I think brought her around). She was still distant when I dropped her off, but I wasn't phased by it. I let it be. When she texted me, I replied directly and without embellishment or humor or acting like I was trying to 'reverse' the distancing. When she came back on the Friday, I didn't go over there, and she didn't invite me, until the Sunday, "Want to come over for a minute?". I said, ok, went over and over the course of 3 hours she warmed up to me again. She's on work travel this week, and I'm 'available' when she texts (no games), but I'm not 'pursuing'. I'm doing my own things and enjoying NOT mulling over the relationship constantly. It is such a liberating feeling, and the relationship is improving. She is now asking my WaYD? at least 3 times a day which hasn't happened in a long time. She wants to connect, and I'm now stable enough to not want to reciprocate any of her past negative behaviors.

If she becomes very negative and attacking again, I won't take it personally, because it's not about me.

During our 3 hours on Sunday, I communicated my needs more directly. She said I should keep the house (I'm going through separation and divorce). I replied, "You say that now, then you say the opposite. You want me to keep it because you can spend time here with me, but then you want to go back into the city and live there on your own the rest of the week, and that hurts me and doesn't work for me. I decided she can have the house, and I'll live in my apartment. I won't ask to move in with you, so don't worry about feeling pressured about it." She said no, we would both live at my place part of the week or weekend, and then we would both go live at her place the rest of the work week for a good commute."

Right before dropping her off at the airport, I said, "Ok, here's how this is happening. I'll pull up to the United entrance, get out of the car, walk around, and we will hug and kiss and say goodbye properly," in a serious way but with obvious humor in my tone. She said she doesn't hug when she's been in a relationship or a long time; I replied, "Really? So no more hugs? That doesn't work for me. Not the kind of relationship I want." We got there, hugged, kissed and said goodbye.

I'm over my fear of stating my views and needs directly. I simply now do it calmly and without blame or anger or getting worked up.

My advice:

- Read "Attached"
- Work on getting yourself to a secure attachment style
- Understand that the other's behavior is never about you
- Understand that you cannot change them or their behavior

Do that, and you will likely find that the other person automatically adjusts and changes because you have, and if it's not positive, if things get worse with them, you can give it some time, but if it stays that way, you need to assess whether it's the right relationship for you.


You say you've been married for 10 years. I haven't read these books yet, but bought them on advice from the friend I mentioned in my last post and will read them soon. Maybe they'll help you. Again, focus on you, not her, not the relationship or marriage. (I think the relationship or marriage is like happiness - it's not something you can directly work on, it's a side-effect of other things like your thinking and behavior):


The Divorce Remedy: The Proven 7-step program for saving your marriage

Divorce Busting: A step-by-step approach

Both are written by Michele Weiner-Davis



Good luck, and if you have specific questions, post them and I'll try and answer them.

It's been a long time since I posted here. Updates:

- We are no longer together. We didn't actually, explicitly break up; I just stopped going over to see her and eventually stopped all texting. More on that below.

- I found a great therapist who confirmed what was going on in this relationship, and why I pick women like M. I won't go into great detail, but I'll give you a sense of what was happening in me.


First, I want to be very clear: while it is not M's fault that her personality is fragmented, it is her responsibility now to resolve her own issues. Period.

Second, while I did have a part to play in this dance, it was a passive part. I was not in her face about anything, I never yelled at her, nor did I snap at her or otherwise treat her badly. I was a victim of her borderline behaviors, but a willing one because I stayed as long as I did.

I was a willing 'victim' because I have / had some traumas in childhood that caused me to stay, to experience the abuse and continue to do so, and to go quiet. I may even say that I 'picked' her out somehow knowing how she was going to be, to try and recreate the childhood traumas I'm told so that they could be resolved. That's not how to resolve them, however.

The traumas I had were with a emotionally sadistic mother. I didn't realize this until I'd gone through about two months of therapy, once a week. I had done a lot on my own to sort myself out with respect to M, successfully, so that by the time I started seeing this therapist, I was mostly stable and free of much of the hold M had on me. but the underlying causes from childhood that caused me to be a victim instead of standing up, facing the behavior and addressing it directly were still not resolved.

My advice? Don't focus on the borderline, turn the spotlight on yourself. The rules of this forum are that you aren't supposed to tell others to get out of the relationship. I'm here to tell you that you may need to do exactly that, at least for a few months, to get your bearings, to stabilize and that you absolutely need to understand your motives for being in the relationship. Yes, when the behavior is really good, it's amazing, but underneath we know what's going on and we pick people based on what's going on in us.

I recommend reading Ego State Therapy -- it's what I think goes underneath what happens in all of us, and what's underneath, the next layer down, of Walking on Eggshells. It gets at the root of what's happening. Integration of your ego states is what you want to aim for.

M is toxic to relationships. She destroys all of the romantic relationships she has. She told me, not long after we first met, that she toyed with men and threw them out, tossed them aside. Her perpetrator (a term you'll understand better when you understand ego states better) turns on whomever she is in a romantic relationship with. If it's a triangle, like ours, her perpetrator focused on him until he was out of the picture. Within days of her divorce, the perpetrator's focus turned on me. She told me the 'part time was working well for her', that she 'couldn't see being full time with anyone'; one day she wanted me to move in with her; a week later, sometimes sooner, she couldn't imagine us moving in together. She toyed with my feelings, and as my therapist asked towards the end of the first session: You do know you're being abused, right?

Those are signs of a fragmented, split personality. You think it's going to get better, but it will NOT get better until the borderline gets into therapy and works on integrating the splits. Don't fool yourself that they can do it on their own -- they cannot. (Yes, maybe a few can, but it's safer to assume they can't -- get help). But until they want to get the help, until they choose to get the help, it's not going to get better. YOU need to focus on YOU, and work to understand why you're with this person, and why you stay. Make decisions based on that.

My life now is so much better. I do miss her, but the her I miss is one split off part of her personality; the other one or ones I don't miss. That's the problem -- because of the split personality, you're actually with multiple people (well, that's a bit of exaggeration -- at the very extreme, you do get Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), which is true multiple personalities without any awareness or memory of the others; borderlines do have ego states that are more separate and disparate than you'd want, but they aren't multiple personalities). I was with a woman, M, where part of her (one or more ego states) loved me and was lovable, and other ego states were mean and nasty. Again, not her fault that this happened -- these splits occurred in childhood -- she was emotionally and physically abused as a toddler. But that doesn't excuse or fix anything. If she'd been amenable to therapy or even was ok discussing what was going on, I'd have given it more time.

Last day I was over she was upset, asked me to stop by -- said she was miserable, that her ex was happy (she was upset about that too), that she didn't want to date, that she was tired of waiting for me, etc. etc. She blamed all of her misery on me and others. She took zero responsibility for her own behaviors. She demanded that I change, that she was fine the way she was. I looked at the future and I didn't see this getting any better.

While I did make progress on my own, this therapist is great. I decided to give it a few months to see if it was worth continuing -- it's the best money I've ever spent (and I'm paying out of pocket). To put it simply, the split off parts of myself are integrating. It's frankly amazing, and I feel great.

Good luck!