BPDFamily.com

So if you know me you'll know that my uBPDw has been sleeping with our 4 and a half year old son in his room since he was born. And not with me.

This morning our son came into my bedroom and woke me up as is normal in vacation time and at weekends. He jumped up onto my bed and after a while asked to watch a video on my phone. While he was watching the video, my wife came out from "their" room and started calling our son to come downstairs.
"Good morning", I said.
She muttered a resentful good morning back and continued to call our son to go downstairs to watch TV.
" He's quite happy staying here for the moment", I said.
"Who is? He is or you are?"
"We both are", I replied.
Then she said, " Yes, I'm sure you are, with his foot on your penis".

What the heck?

I was under the covers and he was, as 4 year olds do, sprawled on top of the covers quietly watching the cartoon on my phone with one leg crossing my lap.  And she's suggesting that's inappropriate?

My fear is that once this relationship all comes to a huge and apocalyptic acrimonious end, and I am certain it will, and sooner rather than later, there are going to be all sorts of accusations about me that are pure fabrication, the product of her warped mind.

I reminded her that she's sleeping with her son every night contrary to the advice of his pediatrician and school psychologists.  Her answer was that he's HER son, not someone else's.

Shaking my head. I just don't know how to respond. I'm trying to bite my lip, but she pushed a button by suggesting that my relationship with my son is perverted and the temptation to tell her to go **** herself is overwhelming.

So I tried keeping my mouth shut but she had touched a nerve and my anger got the better of me. While she was spoonfeeding our son at the breakfast table (she had made breakfast for just our son and her, by the way; I had to make my own) she held him on his hip.  I said "Careful, your hand is near his private parts".  She then criticised me for being rude to her all the time.

Later she asked when we're going to the supermarket.  We only have $50 left and it has to last us until Friday (payday). I said give me a list and I will go.  I have no desire to spend time with her today. She persisted, "When are we going to the supermarket?". 
"I don't know," I replied.
"How don't you know?", says she.
"I don't know because I have things I'd like to do today and I don't know how that will fit into my plans".

5 minutes later, she says "Please help me by mopping the floors downstairs. I'm going to have my shower now."  Sounded like an order. But then again, it came with a "please" and the codependent in me always feels like he needs to be seen doing his bit. So I mopped the floors. 

Then I thought I'm not going to just go about the day, doing what she deems fit, and ignore what she said first thing this morning.  So I went upstairs and through the bathroom door (never once during our relationship has she let me in the bathroom while she has been in there) I said, "I'm going out now. See you later".
"Where are you going?"
"Out. Bye."
And I left.

Going out and giving yourself a break seems a good idea. Think this through.

Now I know others have said this but given the 'sexual impropriety' statement she made against you I think you are aware that if things get worse she is likely to make allegations and it could get nasty. It is clearly not appropriate that she is sharing a bedroom with your son, I would urge you to contact social services in your area because this is not normal and very unhealthy for a child's development. She is pushing your buttons because she knows that what she is doing is wrong!

Of course your son occasionally spending time lying on his parents bed is normal, but you are dealing with BPD and sadly it means absolutely ensuring that there is nothing she can distort to use against you if the rs worsens.

Thanks for the reply.  The psychologists in my son's school already know about his mother's sleeping habits and they agree with me that it is a bad thing. Whether or not it warrants an intervention is a different question.  We live in Mexico where things are a little different.  Maybe attitudes are a bit different here.

I share your concern that things could turn very bad for me.  And I fear that in a Mexican court, they'd be likely give the benefit of any doubt to a Mexican woman making accusations of abuse against a foreign man.

The more I think about it (and overthinking is not always a good thing), the more I see her thinly veiled accusation of pedophilia this morning as a veiled threat. 
Her subtext being: "You try and mess with my relationship with my son and I'll say that you've been involved in inappropriateness of your own."

Regarding allegations: I agree it can get nasty and I don’t have advice on how to protect yourself. Hopefully it was a one time poke at you and it won’t happen again!
But I disagree that bedsharing is a bad thing. We had a family bed until my son was 6 and it worked well for us. I do not believe that it is at all unhealthy for a child’s development, in fact I think that it helps with independence in the long run. There have been a lot of studies on bedsharing. Anyway. I won’t get on a soap box about it. That being said: if it’s not right for everyone, then it’s not right. Does it bother you that she sleeps elsewhere? I know for a long time my uBPDh slept alone in another room. It really upset me and I sat him down on several occasions and told him how I felt lonely and abandoned. He was completely surprised and started sleeping in the room with me after a couple of heart to hearts. We had two kids in bed with us when our daughter was born until he decided it didn’t work for him anymore. So our son transitioned to his own room and our almost 1yr old to hers. Now she’s still breastfed and it’s easier for me (WAY easier) to sleep with her. So I start the night with my husband so that HE doesnt feel lonely and abandoned and if (always when) she wakes up in the middle of the night, I move to her room for the remainder. I had a conversation with h about this too, making sure he was ok with it. If he wasn’t, then I would go help her back to sleep and go back to bed with him.
Have you talked to her about transitioning out of his room and into yours? Maybe starting the night with you? Just some thoughts. What do you think Dragon72?

Yes it bothers me she doesn't sleep in the same room as her husband.
It also bothers me that she never spends her evenings with me ever also.
It bothers me that she goes to him for comfort and intimacy.
It bothers me that I have not had a wife since she said "I do".

And it bothers me that, with a helicopter mom who sleeps with him and spoonfeeds him at 4 years of age, he's not learning independence.

Update:

I went out to the store for 5 minutes to get something and I came back to find our son upset and in tears.
I asked him what happened.  He said that his mom grabbed his hair and pulled it.  I asked her if this was true and she didn't deny it but suggested that he exaggerated.

I took him upstairs and away from her and spent a while with him as he calmed down and started to play again.

When we went back down I said to her that if she ever ever lays a finger on him in anger again, I will go straight to the police. She just stared ahead unresponsive.

Now, I don't know what really happened as I wasn't there and you can't go 100% on the testimony of a young child, but it didn't sound good and I'm not happy.

She has just taken him to spend the night with his cousin who lives a mile away. I'm expecting her to come back and want a show-down with me.  I hope I don't say anything I regret. I will record what we do say for safety sake.

Re reading through your post as I see it there are two issues:

Firstly - you don't have any intimacy, sleeping apart and not spending time together sounds like a convenience rather than a marriage, how long do you think you can deal with this?

Secondly - it sounds like your son is being treated inappropriately for his age, a child will get seriously damaged IMHO if used as emotional support for an adult.

I do not know how things are in Mexico but certainly in Europe this would be viewed I believe as potentially abusive to the child. I think you need to tread carefully but this is not a healthy situation.

Hey Dragon... .

Do you think it is better to move this from the "fear" stage... to a "certainty"?  Crazy stuff comes out of her mouth... .that's what happens.  It will happen.

I'm so sorry that is the case... .but unfortunately... .you know that is the case.  

I would also suggest that there is some catastrophisizing (did I just make up a word?)... .that this will all end.  Can you flip this around... .and look forward to when "this" type of relationship ends... and look with hope towards what will be built.

Do you really want the relationship to continue like this?  

Note:   I'm not suggesting you will or won't be living in the same house or that you will or won't be divorced.

But seriously... .you have a view of marriage that your wife doesn't accept (to the point of living out something different)... .your wife has a view of marriage that you are willing to live out, yet are not happy with.

There is a fear piece in here that has kept you stuck for a while, yet recently... .you pushed past it for the money thing.   |iiii   Will you push past it on the marriage thing?

FF

Yes!  Yes!

This is much better!  Much.  This is "your game."... .this is much healthier.

You are letting her know what you can do... .she can take it or leave it.

Of course... .stay away from her game.  The more you do your thing and less her dysfunctional one... the better.

FF

What could you have done to change the dynamic here... .to preserve your independence and promote compromise, planning for future and change.  To lessen the "immediacy" of her ability and need to control you, yet you still get to do your part (as you should) in the household and marriage.

FF

I don't know, ff.
Maybe I could have said, "I'll do it in 6 hours' time when I get back."
I already do more than my bit in the marriage and household. Without prompting I cook, iron, clean, launder, empty trash, sweep, pay bills, spend lots of time with our son.  With prompting I do even more of that stuff. I also earn 100% of the dough in a 10 hour a day job.

Udpate:
There was no showdown.
She came back late last night from dropping our son off at her brother's house for a sleepover. I had already gone to bed.  She went to sleep in our son's bed. 

I went to do some work at my workplace before she woke up.

 
Here is my thought... .

Stop doing anything other than a personal kindness for her... .at her prompting.

So... ."hey... .would you get me a glass of water"  personal kindness... .do it with smile, light touch when you give it to her... .get one for yourself... .perhaps she wants to talk.

Also... .if she has her hands full and needs a hand... .sure... help.

But... .when she wants to order maid service... .so maid service can be going on while she takes a shower... .she can solve that on her own without you, or she can be kind and share with you the things she would "appreciate" being done during the day.  Or she can do them herself.

So... .perhaps you both sit down with cup of coffee and talk about what would be helpful... .she mentions a  few things... .you mention a few things... .each of you pick a few that you will do.  Note:  Things you should mention are good and healthy for marriage and set you apart from your son.   She may say no... that's fine.  :)on't freak out.

Guess what... .you can say no too.  

Then you can bargain... .compromise... .etc etc.  Honey I'll trade you some floor sweeping and other goodies for 30 minutes of snuggle time on the couch after we put junior to bed.  (don't bring up all the judgment about that... .)  Let her connect the dots.

Basically... .she asks you to do things... .you generally do them.

You ask... .she generally doesn't.  

That's not sustainable.

Here is my guess at her "thinking" with the floor mopping.  She got a bit frustrated trying to control you (go to store together... etc etc) and kept pecking away until she found something you would respond to... . She "pecked" (although nicely) about chores and you did it... .while she luxuriated in the shower... .         

Last analogy.  It sucks that you may have to demand to be treated like a husband... .(demand by refusing other stuff)... .but that's really where you are at.  The only way she gets the "servant" she wants... .is through what YOU consider healthy.  

Or she does without.

Again... .let her connect the dots.

Thoughts?


FF

I agree it's not sustainable. The relationship dynamic, that is.

I think at the moment that there's too much toxicity in the air.  Your image of us negotiating over a cup of coffee like a couple of adults?  That has never gone well when I have tried it in the past.  She switches into bulldozer even when she's "happy" and not seething with resentment which she is at the moment.

Also, I'm not sure I like the idea of "buying" snuggle time by doing chores.  Affection and intimacy should be offered from a mindset of free will, not as a debt.

I'm going to head back home now after a spell at work and try to survive the afternoon.  I was paid today and I want to give her a sum of money to use as she pleases and be clear that anything on top of that she'll need to get my approval beforehand as a family expense.  Let's see how it goes.

Update:
I got home and gave her a reasonable amount of money explaining that it was for her to spend how she likes. Any other things that we needs I will take care of.

Complete stone silence.

"A Thank you would be nice"

Silence with an angry stare into space.

"Well, you're being very rude".

And I left her to be angry on her own. I could see tears welling up but that's her problem.

So... .if there is no ability to talk normally... she gets no control.  Guess what I'm going to say... .?  Let her figure it out

So the spur of the moment "I'm going to control my servant" thing is over... .

You are offering something different.  You are not forcing her to take it.  Guess what... .she may learn to do without.  I would count that as a victory.

Or... .she may calm down and have a halfway reasonable conversation... .without a bulldozer  I've noticed that you mention that a lot.  The bulldozer thing.  She does it because it works  Once it stops working... .she will be faced with choices she doesn't like. 

Guess what I'm going to say... .?  :)  (you've got it... .come on!)  Let her figure it out.

At the end of the day... .whatever she uses bulldozer for... .doesn't work.  Done.

Last thing:  Dude... .if you are only going to take intimacy on a silver platter... with a bow... .and trumpets in the background... .and poetry... .you should just quit now.  Not being mean... I"m being serious.

Of course you are right... .it should be freely given. 

Guess what... .that ain't gonna happen  And guess what... .this may not work either. 

Best if you think of it this way.  You get to ask for a compromise on what is important to you... .(intimacy) and she gets to ask for what's important to her.  That's a relationship... .that's compromise. 

All you can do is offer... .if she doesn't take you up on it... .(oh... you know it's coming)  "Let her figure it out... "

FF

Yes... .dude!  Yes!

I'm am doing the FF dance!

Oh... crap... .I just pulled a muscle... .

So... .please celebrate.  Do something to be especially kind to yourself.  You did something awesome for yourself and the relationship.

Take today to celebrate.

Take tomorrow to reflect on this... .and what you can do so next payday is better.

 |iiii   |iiii

 :) :) :) :) :)

FF

Well it's been an afternoon of deafening silence from the Mrs. She went angrily off for an afternoon nap (with the little one, of course) and refused to answer me when I asked her wanted to eat for the afternoon meal (we eat mid p.m. here) so I cut her out of the lunch plans.  Our son and I ate together while she continued sulking upstairs.

Later, after she dined alone, she interrupted the game our son and I were playing and put him in the car saying to him (not me) she was taking him to the horseback riding center to see the horses. "I'd like to come too!", I said cheerily.

The horse center was closed so we went to the supermarket. Whenever I asked a question like " Do we need more eggs" I got met with silence. So I kept on asking until she barked the answer. I told her she was being very rude.

Later she was telling our son to switch the TV audio to Spanish, I disagreed with her, saying that it's fine every once in a while to watch it in his preferred language, English. Growing up in Mexico, his Spanish will be fine. She said, "I wasn't talking to you".
I said, "But I am talking to you."

She has now gone out "for a walk", at least that's what she told our son. Right at suppertime/bathtime/bedtime.  She's trying to cling onto control with every passive aggressive way she can.

I'm enjoying it. For now at least.

Did she respond at all? 

I would think this would be an area to be proactive and do some teaching about your values (she may not listen). 

Leave it in her court. 

1  We can shop together if there is kindness between us.
2.  Your preference is that you shop together
3.  You will respect her decision.

FF

I like your suggestion, ff.
She may listen but whether or not she'll respond is another thing.

She's persisting with the silent treatment this a.m.  I said good morning twice. Nada. Asked a question about breakfast. Nada.

She did mention me though to my son.  I was mopping (of my own volition) while she and son were watching TV. She told him to move his feet because "they" are mopping here. Like I'm one of the cleaning employees.

I also saw she took down all the laundry from the line except mine.

Passive aggression on steroids today

... .and the money I gave her yesterday is still lying conspicuously untouched on the dining room table in exactly the same place she put it the moment I gave it to her 24 hours ago.

Please don't validate her odd beliefs and communications by continuing this... .especially in front of her.

It likely invalidates her... .and provides fastballs for her BPDish stuff.

FF

So... do you share money with people that don't protect it.  Think about your values...

Remember... ."let her figure it out"

FF

So I went for a run. Came back feeling fantastic!

"I'm back!", I say as I come in through the door.
"I need more money please," she said angrily.
"But I see you haven't touched the money I gave you yesterday"
"I need more than that"
"What for?", I ask.
"My personal expenses"
"Well maybe we can discuss what you need and see if we have enough to cover that. What do you need to buy?"
"I just need money for me. I work so hard as a SAHM and nurses and secretaries get paid far more than that what you gave me."

I wasn't going to JADE, so I went for a shower.

It's been a day of holding boundaries.

My son refused to go wash his hands before lunch and so I warned him I would take his toy away from him.  He continued refusing and throwing tantrums. My wife got upset at seeing him distressed so she picked him up and carried him to the bathroom and washed his hands for him. I'm not going to give the toy back though until he says sorry for his behavior. Right now he's still demanding his toy.

So like his mother.

This afternoon I played lots with my son, then he spent a while watching TV with his mom, then he got bored so I got him to make a batch of cookies from scratch ingredients. He loved the measuring, mixing, rolling, cutting and baking!  They were delicious. I offered one to my wife. She took one. Zero thanks.

As junior's bedtime approached, wife was watching TV while son and I were playing. It was clear she wasn't going to lift a finger to make him supper or take up to bed.  I didn't want to either, after being left by her without warning yesterday when she suddenly went out for the evening.

So I said to her, "I'm going out for a bit now. Bye". And left the house.

I'm not really sure if that was the right move. It seems a bit "tit-for-tat".

I have a feeling she's doing a passive aggressive minimal amount of "work" in protest about her "low wages" (ie. the personal spending money I gave her, which she said was insufficient).

I can see this developing into a series of P.A. provocations, and I'm going to have to have the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon to know how to respond. 

How I hate such "games".

Give me strength!

So the money I gave her just for her is still lying conspicuously untouched on the dining room table where itr has been since Thursday.

Yet this morning she said, "I need money".
"I gave you money, there it is.  Sitting on the table since Thursday. What do you need more for?", I ask.

"I need money for a laser eye operation and for the legal fees to get my house officially signed over to my name." (she bought, with my help towards the end, a house in a nearby city as an investment, but just needs to finalise the process, which will cost money.)

"Well both those things are significant expenses that we will only be able to pay for if we start saving each month for about a year. We just don't have the spare cash for you to have them right away." I answered.

She then complained again about working harder than and earning less than people who have menial jobs. "OK, I said, if you don't like being a SAHM, I'll support you with that. Similarly, if you want to be a SAHM, I will continue to give you as much money just for you as we can possibly afford."

She then said that it was me who made her be a SAHM. This is nonsense. I have always told her that it would be her choice and I would support what she decided.

She then demanded more "purse money" for incidental expenses. 
"Like what?", I asked.
"You know, like if we run out of milk."
"Then buy the milk with a dollar from the money I gave you and I will reimburse you later that same day. How does that sound?"
Then she just launched into a tirade about how cruel I am for not giving her any money. So I walked away.

While she was in the shower, our son asked if we could go to the park. So I went upstairs and talking through the shut bathroom door, I said, "Son and I want to go the park. You want to come with us?"
"What so I go there and can walk behind you all the time? No thanks!"
"OK", I answered cheerily, "See you later".

We came back from the park to an empty house. She texted to say she went to a church on the other side of the city. So she'll probably be back late.

And her money still lies intact on the dining room table.

Well she's persistent, I'll give her that.

This evening she said; "You haven' left the rest of the money on the table"
"I'm sorry, I don't understand, the money I gave you is all still there"
It seems she expected me to just leave the amount i used to give her every payday.

She then tried the "I need an eye operation" angle.  She just needs better eyeglasses.  What this is really about is that she would like an operation so that she doesn't have to wear glasses.  I said to her, "OK, find out how much this laser surgery will cost. Then find out how much your insurance which I have just finished paying for will cover it. Then we can talk about how we are going to save to cover it."

She didn't like that.

"Who has poisoned you against me?", she said, "I would like to buy them flowers and a cake".
Me, silently: say what now?
She said I've changed. I said, "Yes I have.  I want to make sure that I do the right thing from now on"
"The right thing for you?", she said accusingly.
"Yes, for me and for the family", I replied unapologetically.

Then she talked about how her father never treated her mother like this.  (I have seen enough of their dynamic to see that her mother bullies her father terribly)
She then also said how, with each of her exes, she knew exactly when to end it.  That was very telling. It was probably when they started to stand up to her too.

She then kept insisting on her "purse money" and I held firm saying that I have already left her a decent amount just for her and if she has to make any significant purchases for the family that she could come to me and I will reimburse her. Anyway, any big expenditure ought to be agreed between the two of us, no?

I just let her rant for a while about how cruel a husband I am and how I have lots of money that I'm not giving her out of spite.  I'm proud of myself. I think for the first time I was really comfortable with not JADEing, and understood perfectly how unproductive and senseless pleading my case would be, and I was not bothered in the slightest.

I have had two relationships out in Mexico, to find eventually that both of my SOs had BPD traits. Yep, made the mistake twice. Therapy came as a result in order to figure out why I allowed this to happen.

Back to the story, I lived in a border town with one of them for a few months.  I would cross daily for work.

As you, she was obsessed with her kid. Slept most of the time in the sofa with her even though she had her own room. Point to add, most studies determine that is not the best arrangement for a family setting, especially when BPD is in the mix, for children to be sleeping with their parents, for many reasons that I am not going into right now. For BPDs this action has somewhat to do with maintaining the highest level of control over the child. And or course, it deteriorates the couples interaction.

The financial situation was an every week topic. The entitlement, ungratefulness, and demands were limitless. So, whenever there was demand for more money I would calmly state that was the budget for the week, and used the broken record technique. In your case, sooner or later she will take the money. If you break now, the demands will increase. They are so short sighted. Mine kept insisting on going back to work, to earn 300 pesos (about 20.00 USD at the exchange rate at the time) more a week than what I was giving her. In the meantime I was also paying for her schooling. I made it clear that she was free to go back to work, but that meant that financial obligations would change to one of a family with two incomes. Her math skills never caught up with the concept. She eventually did it, and as predicted, she wanted to keep her job money, not contribute to the monthly bills, for me to pay for her school, and still give her spending money. Since this was in addition to all the crazy that comes living with a BPD, that was the end of the line for me. I was a fool to believe it was going to be that easy. The day I told her I was done, she got "abducted." When I refused to pay the 30,000 dollars "ransom," she miraculously appeared the next day. Just shared so you could know that some of us might understand the situation from the point of view south of the border. Most women would tell me how happy they would be to live with a man that not only brought the bacon, but also helped around the house, and treat them lovingly and respectfully. Great contrast to our lovely BPD companions that treat us like yesterday's trash.

Very interesting, GD. And worrying too.
Thanks for your perspective.
I feel it's going to be a battle of broken records for a while.
 I can't see her pulling the "kidnap" trick, but you never know!

wow, just wow. I thought I had heard it all.

if she was anything like my ex, im inclined to believe that she probably was aducted, only released because even they couldnt  have been able to handle her :)

LOL... .I forgot that I thought that at the time! I couldn't believe how any "kidnappers" would be able to handle both of them... .LOL... .I have never seen a seven year old capable of the level of lying, entitlement, self-serving, and manipulation that this one could reach. And this, after working for the last 20 years with children.

OH! By the way, the ex still contacted me for two weeks after the fact trying for me to help her out with money... .I dont have money for the childrens' Xmas gifts, I need money for lunch while I look for another job (she moved out of the house, sold everything in it, and I didnt see a dime... .I didnt care, I was happy to be done), and so on. Since I stood my ground, after two weeks, she HAD to let me know that it was best if we didn't talk to each other. I guess that was the last card on her deck. As soon as I said that it was fine with me, that were the last words we crossed. YIPPPEEEE

Liberating,isnt it?

i wouldnt say that my ex was greedy for money or materialistic, but it was the act of getting money or whatever she wanted by deceiving rather than to be given it gave her that sad little buzz of excitement.

youll make it back and more.  |iiii

Dragon,

Can you put in context how much money is being left out on the kitchen table? 

What is your thinking in leaving it unprotected? 

So... .if she claims that it is "gone" and she didn't spend it... .are YOU solid that YOU will do nothing to replace it or "fix" the situation?

I'm wondering about the wisdom of NOT making the exchange of money a personal interaction. 

As in you put it in her hand... .and she says thank you... .you say you are welcome.  Or... .if she doesn't want to do that... .she can understand the consequences of not being thankful (no money in her purse).

FF

ff: I gave her about US$125 on Thursday, I put it in her hand, and told her that it was for her and just for her to spend how she pleased until the next payday on the 15th when I will give her more.  It amounts to about 12.5% of my take home wages after tax.  I said if she wanted to make extra money to make any other purchases, I was open to the idea, but we would have to discuss it first as a couple.

She chose to put it on the dining room table - I have told her to put it somewhere safe, but, since I told her it was hers to do as she pleases, I don't want to touch it. It's her responsability.

As short while ago, I got back from my morning run - a real belter, 6 miles in under 45mins! - and my wife asks me if we are going to spend a few days at the beach.  I think: hotel in high season, gas, freeway tolls, eating out etc., it all adds up and will leave us with barely nothing up til the next payday. So I say, "No, I don't think so. We don't have enough money to spare for that."

So she starts saying to our 4 year old son, whom she encouraged to beg me to take them to the beach, how Daddy's mean and has plenty of money, and how awful it was that they were being kept at home during the vacation time and not allowed to go out.  

She said to our son that he shouldn't ask his classmates about where they went on vacation when he sees them again, as it will only make him jealous. (By the way, his classmates are the offspring of the uber-rich of Mexico. Our son only goes there because he gets a huge scholarship as I am a teacher at the school. So his classmates always spend their weekends somewhere super nice anyway).  And my wife talking to my via our son is a s#1tty thing to do.

It's all part of her strategy to shame and manipulate me into relinquishing the control I have wrestled back off of her.  So, my question is, when she was in control of half of my wages and didn't pay any of the bills and expenses, how come there wasn't "spare money", but now that I have it and want to cooperate on where it goes, suddenly we have more?  :)oesn't make sense.  

Also, I thought she urgently wanted elective laser eye surgery and funds to get her house legally in her hands?  We certainly can't save for those and go to the beach and pay the payments on her fancy new car and fill the fridge and keep the lights and internet connected.

So she left with our son in the car.  "Where you going?", I asked.  
"Out to try and entertain ourselves, since you won't take us to the beach.  Not sure when we'll be back."

She is incapable of understanding the idea of cooperating as equals to manage this money.  She has always refused to cooperate whenever I have tried to involve her in planning.  It's either her 100% in control, which she wants, or me 100% in control, which she hates.

Forgot to mention that on the way out of the house with our son this morning, she made a great show of taking 200 pesos (about US$12) from her pile of cash on the table. 

... .And I'm not too happy about her taking my son away to unspecified destinations for unspecified periods and without inviting me.  Yes, I took him to the park yesterday and it was just him and me, but I first invited her, then when she said no, I said we'd be back before lunch. And we were.
She, however, I am sure of it, is deliberately not including me, not keeping me informed in order to punish/provoke.  It's terrible the way she's using our son as a weapon.

Did she thank you?

Listen... .there is a "big picture" way that I think you are trying to approach her, which is likely counterproductive... .many "nice guys" fall into this pattern.

"I'm going to be a fair as I can be".   Or... ."I'll give her every benefit of the doubt"... .

Do you get that point of view? 

If the purpose is to make sure she is ok in an "emergency"... .I would have to think that $25 should be sufficient.  That also limits your losses and her ability to screw stuff up.

If it really... really... .really is an emergency... .she has family close by.  There are telephones. 

If she wants things... .she can speak to you in a friendly tone of voice... .without threats.

2nd issue.

Stop giving her yes or no answers when she randomly inquires about money.  Don't solve it for her... .hand it back to her... .seem eager (if she would only share her point of view).

Can we go to the hotel? 

"Oh... interesting thought... .sounds fun.  I'll have time to look at your spreadsheet later."

Dude... .I know she will never do a spreadsheet.  So... .for later you can have spreadsheet open and let her know you are ready to put her ideas in there. 

DO NOT engage on other stuff.  Let her know you will come back when she is ready to spreadsheet.  Note... .in the shocking instance that she produces something in writing... .thank her... ask questions... .

Let's DRAMA triangle this.  When she asks these questions she  is offering you the chance to rescue (be a hero for a second) or the persecutor (to say no).  There is an insinuation that she is the victim.

Your goal is to keep handing the work back to her... .yet stay interested in her progress.  Her idea... her work... .

You are doing good stuff... .take lessons learned from each payday... .make changes towards healthy.

FF

FF, I am not sure I understand.
Yes she did thank me, by the way but it was said with the same tone of voice a 6 year old uses when they've been told to say sorry to their kid brother.

I think the point of the 125 I gave her is that that money is for her to use as she sees fit, for her.  Hairdo, nails, a new bra, Starbucks, a new case for her phone.  Stuff for her. Just like I would like to be able to make the odd purchase just for me too.

She also has, although she says she's half spent it already, 25 or so for "emergencies" like running out of milk etc.

And your second point I'm not sure I understand.  You're saying when she suggested a trip to the beach I ask to look at her projections for what it might cost?  Let her do the planning?

Yes... .let her produce figures (with math that works) to express her values and provide the solution.

Her idea... her work.

FF

The second point about letting her do the work while you remain "eager" to see her finished product and understand her idea.

It goes beyond money, although money is likely easier to understand.

Man of us hear one or two sentences from a pwBPD and then spend enormous time evaluating and explaining how that idea won't work... .or is a bad idea.

For us to conserve our energy and response, until a fully fledged out idea is presented will carry enormous benefits for all.

The more time you can spend asking probing, value based questions... .so she can explain to you... .vice the other way around... .will reap big benefits.

Let her explain that she believes it ok to skip 2 car payments or some other crazy idea.  Or perhaps she wants the car gone (which would be a blessing... right?)

It's all part of the mindset shift.

FF

I'm feeling so tired and stressed and lonely and sad and angry right now.  I feel battle weary and I know that every interaction is a fight. She's redoubling her efforts to paint me black and attack me emotionally now. I'm just not sure how much more of it I can take. I'm a big fit sane 46 year old bloke and I'm close to tears. I can't stand this.

If you read around, you will find that MANY of us  have been in that boat. No shame on that. You are not alone brother. Keep on sharing with us that can relate, know, and understand.

     

Sorry man... .

I know you feel low at the moment... .this is hard stuff.

Please be encouraged that her acting up is "proof" or "validation" that you are making big changes and she is trying to get you back in line... .or "complaining". 

You have made a big mindset shift to control your resources.  Stay there on mindset... .it is and will pay big dividends.

One of your next mindset shifts will be that even though she wants to fight... every time... .you get to decide if you fight or not.  I get it... .it doesn't "fix" the situation... .but it helps...   Every step in the right direction is a good one.

FF

her behaviour is about controlling your son by becoming emotionally incestuous.

He might still be young now, but it is a big red flag that he will end up growing up to become very confused and unhealthily attached to her.

you might end up abandoning her, but she is taking all the steps to ensure at an early stage that she makes sure your son wont.

this has to stop now, can you imagine what she will be like when he gets older and starts wanting to girls. are they going to be seen as threats? will he even subconsciously pick up his mothers vibes that somehow he isnt allowed to even do this?

its going to just get very confusing for him. this isnt healthy at all.

a strong approach now and not let this fly below the radar, this is how borderlines are often created in the first place. you get painted black eventually and he has to take on the role of mothers saviour.

i dont know what the answer is, but all I do know is that this needs figured out and fast.

AGREE with the rest of your post! Even the T we visited stated that their relationship was a pathological one.

I am acutely aware of the dsyfunctional nature of our family dynamic and it distresses me constantly to know that it's having a terrible impact on my wonderful innocent son. Poor guy.

This morning my wife announced out of the blue that she was going to go to the city center, a big trek by public transport from where we live, to buy herself some hair products. 
"Great!", I reacted, "I hope you get what you need."

While she was getting ready, I mopped the floors downstairs and washed the breakfast dishes, and played for a bit with our son.  When she came down, she went to the kitchen, picked up a saucepan that she had left on the stove with food in it, called me over, and with a terrifying scowl on her face, said to me in a very angry tone, "Why didn't you clean this up?". 
I was lost for words for a bit, then said, "I don't know, I must have missed it.  Don't talk to me in that tone, please."
No reply.

A minute or two later she left with our son. She hadn't mentioned she would be going with him.  And she seems to have finally taken the cash that she had left all this time on the table.

 
"I'll be able to talk further about this when harsh words aren't between us."

Leave it at that.

The content of her question doesn't get dealt with.

Can you compare the amount of housework that both of you do (broad descriptions)... .not looking for nuance.

FF

Keep in mind that the changes and values that you are expressing with money are going to pay dividends when you start making changes (with professional guidance) with your son.

If she believes she "pushed back" and "got you back in line" with money... .she will try all the harder to put you (and any professionals) back in line with regarding to healthy decisions with your son.

FF

How much housework do I do? I'd say weekends and vacation time, about 50-50. Maybe me egding ahead 60-40, since I really like to cook, and ironing gives me a chance to get away from her and relax mentally.
Weekdays, she does it all, except I'll wash the plates and the pans after the evening meal and I do most of the childcare for the supper/bedtime routine.

Last night from "her" bed she sent me a meme video all about what "comes from fear and what comes from love".
"From fear: judgment, control, gossip
From love: acceptance, flow, sharing and enjoyment.
From fear: thinking, analyzing and comparing.
From fear: live in the now, embrace and accept.
From fear: criticizing, being dogmatic, bearing grudges.
From love: empathy, helping and letting go."

It went on.

I think she's trying to tell me that I'm doing all the bad "fear"y things, all the while not realizing that it's all applicable to her too.

Incidentally, I just got into a BPD exchange of words with my mother (who I think is a "sufferer" too).
I replied to a whatsapp message that my brother sent to the whole family with a smily face.
My mother then sent me a private message "So you reply to his messages and not to mine?"
I replied, "Stop trying to guilt trip me. If I didn't reply to your message at the time, it's because I probably had my hands full and didn't remember later. It's nothing personal."
She replied "I sent you those recipes in my message out of love and I saw you were posting on FB later, so you can't have been that busy. I only do things for you with warmth and love."
I chose not to reply. 

They say you pick your spouse by how much they resemble your most problematic parent. Voila.

. reminds me of my own experience, if I had ever done wrong (looking back, this must have been a daily occurrence), i would never get confronted with what the problem is. like you got sent that meme video that you have to decrypt yourself, I got lots of that style of 3rd party produced stuff forwarded to me like a communist state brainwashing department sending out propaganda.

I suspect it is another cowardly way of being able to tell you what she expects you to hear but not take direct ownership over it. then the gaslighting can begin when you reply with a heightened emotional response to it - where she can then act sqeaky clean innocent of any bad intent,

in fact claim what she did was actually out of love and kindness as the 3rd party message is wide open to interpretation, and whats wrong with you, your going crazy or something?

You said exactly how it is, Cromwell.
It's mindgames and an attempt to play the victim and saviour simultaneously.
I just ignored it.  There would have been no correct response.

What would have been a healthier response? 

You likely respond to your wife and mother in many of the same ways... .unfortunately... .without a lot of serious introspection and likely sustained therapy... .it will take a while to change.

Step 1 is to "see" it.

step 2  understand at a base level why that response is "not so good" and why something else is healthier

Step 3... .consistently apply it


Note... I'm sure you were "right"... .serious.  But... .is "right" what matters?

FF

Hey, I'm human. If someone tries to manipulate me emotionally, I don't like it.

Honestly I don't know what the "healthy" response would have been.
"Hey mom, I'm glad you picked a fight with me out of the blue. I love the way you make me feel guilty. Keep it up. Now I really want to talk with you more often."

"Ohh goodness Mom... .since I peeked at our history and saw I have actually replied... .I can't imagine what you are suggesting.  Can you clarify?"

Lots of ways you can invite her to clarify herself.

What it seems to me is...

Your Mom had an emotional thing going on... .she invited you to show what kind of judgmental a$$ you were... .and your fulfilled your role as a "persecutor" and allowed her to victimize herself quite nicely.

Any idea who "rescued" her?

Very frustrating stuff... . 

FF

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This topic has been locked due to reaching its post limit.  The discussion is Continued here: Projecting the craziness (Continued) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323524.msg12954530#msg12954530)