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So this morning after days of not talking I get a message that he loves me and hates himself so much.
He has cheated, of course this was a "setup" according to him. It was someone else's doing somehow. I am so hurt.
In most honesty, he was probably high. He has substance abuse problems. And he was more than excited to have the intimacy even though I have tried to be intimate with him often and he never allows it.
He is threatening suicide and I don't know what to do!

Hi Catlady.  Can you update the situation?  I see you posted this earlier today so I am wondering if anything has changed.

Is your husband with you or is he somewhere else?  Forgive me, I do not remember, but has he threatened suicide before?  You mentioned drugs.  Do you know if he is still high?

Hi Catlady,

I'm sorry to hear what you're going through.  That is very anxiety provoking for you.  I hope that you can post again and let us know what is happening and how you are both doing.

We have a document here, which is at the bottom of every page, called SAFETY FIRST (https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info2.htm).  You will find information and guidance on how to handle suicidal ideation in others and it would be good to read and digest this when you can, so that you are prepared should you have another situation like this.  I'm afraid that once he has made a threat like this there's a likelihood it won't be the last time.  The key thing is to encourage him to get help.

Here's an excerpt from the document which gives us tips on how to help someone who is feeling suicidal:

1.Take it seriously.

Myth: “The people who talk about it don't do it.” Studies have found that more than 75% of all completed suicides did things in the few weeks or months prior to their deaths to indicate to others that they were in deep despair. Anyone expressing suicidal feelings needs immediate attention.

2.Remember: suicidal behavior is a cry for help.

Myth: “If a someone is going to kill himself, nothing can stop him.” The fact that a person is still alive is sufficient proof that part of him wants to remain alive. The suicidal person is ambivalent - part of him wants to live and part of him wants not so much death as he wants the pain to end. It is the part that wants to live that tells another “I feel suicidal.” If a suicidal person turns to you it is likely that he believes that you are more caring, more informed about coping with misfortune, and more willing to protect his confidentiality. No matter how negative the manner and content of his talk, he is doing a positive thing and has a positive view of you.

3.Be willing to give and get help sooner rather than later.

Suicide prevention is not a last minute activity. All textbooks on depression say it should be reached as soon as possible. Unfortunately, suicidal people are afraid that trying to get help may bring them more pain: being told they are stupid, foolish, sinful, or manipulative; rejection; punishment; suspension from school or job; written records of their condition; or involuntary commitment. You need to do everything you can to reduce pain, rather than increase or prolong it. Constructively involving yourself on the side of life as early as possible will reduce the risk of suicide.

4.Listen.

Give the person every opportunity to unburden his troubles and ventilate his feelings. You don't need to say much and there are no magic words. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it. Give him relief from being alone with his pain; let him know you are glad he turned to you. Patience, sympathy, acceptance. Avoid arguments and advice giving.

5.ASK: “Are you having thoughts of suicide?”

Myth: “Talking about it may give someone the idea.” People already have the idea; suicide is constantly in the news media. If you ask a despairing person this question you are doing a good thing for them: you are showing him that you care about him, that you take him seriously, and that you are willing to let him share his pain with you. You are giving him further opportunity to discharge pent up and painful feelings. If the person is having thoughts of suicide, find out how far along his ideation has progressed.

6.If the person is acutely suicidal, do not leave him alone.

If the person is acutely suicidal, do not leave them alone - drive the person to the nearest emergency department or other service facility. They may be hesitant - that is normal. The local suicide hotlines can advise you of the best facility.

If the situation is life threatening, or the person refuses to go for care, or you are unable to transport them, call 911.

Please do not use emergency medical services to teach anyone a lesson.

If the means to commit suicide are present, try to get rid of them.

7.Urge professional help.

If someone is acting suicidal or talking of suicide, it is vitally important to get them into professional care at the first signs. Like many disorders, early detection and treatment yields better outcomes. Persistence and patience may be needed to seek, engage and continue with as many options as possible. In any referral situation, let the person know you care and want to maintain contact.

  
Try to remain calm Catlady.  I know it is very upsetting to hear your husband speak this way.  Thoughts of suicide are a part of his illness.  :)oes he have treatment?  Will he call a hotline or attend the emergency room to see a crisis team?

Love and light x

Hi Catlady,

I am sorry that you are experiencing such a stressful situation.  I know that you don't want any harm to come to your husband, and suicide threats from a loved one can make us feel so helpless and scared.

When you have a moment, give us an update on how things are going now, and whether everyone is safe.  Then, could you give us a detailed description of what was happening when he made the threats, and what exactly he said?  Understanding the details is the first step in figuring out the best plan of action.

WW

He hasn't spoke to me in days then this morning at 7.
 he sent me a message saying that he had cheated and he loves me and he is sorry. he hates himself. He says he was setup. Not sure what that means.
I didn't get the message until shortly before I posted on here first.
I send him a message back but he has not responded
I'm really unsure where he is staying right now but believe him to be with a friend.
I have Wi-Fi but no phone service at the moment. So I can't call him and I have no car.

He refuses treatment. And he has been struggling with drugs. Sober for sometime then he would relapse every four to six months.

His message went like this:
I have a gun and bullet and I'm think of using it.
No time to talk. Give the baby the biggest hug and kiss for me.

Hi Catlady.   Does your husband usually have access to a gun or do you think the gun belongs to a friend?

What are you doing to take care of you?  How are the kids?

Catlady, I am so sorry you had to be on the receiving end of that message.  It is graphic, including a specific threat.  It makes you worry for the father of your baby.  And "No time to talk" raises the urgency and pulls away from you, likely making you feel more helpless.

Does he own a gun that you know of?  If not, does he have access to a gun through a relative or a friend?

It may not be possible to tell the difference between a genuine expression of suicidal intent and a manipulation.  In fact, a situation might be between those two extremes -- someone authentically upset, but communicating in a way to have maximum impact on you.

If this were someone threatening to hurt themselves with pills, who had never intimidated you, choosing a course of action would be easy -- call the police.  From out here on the Internet, I cannot see the details of your situation.  A pwBPD is going to be upset at police involvement.  He has exhibited controlling behaviors like taking your wallet, money, and car keys, and isolating you by causing you to lose your job.  These are red flags for domestic violence.

The best thing for you to do right now is call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at (800) 799-7233.  You might say, "Hey, he hasn't hit me, this isn't domestic violence," but they have experience in dealing with an entire range of situations like this.  Later, when things settle down, I can point you to some resources on their site that describe some of what you've been experiencing.  They can guide you along the safest course of action for both of you, and direct you to local resources.  Plus, hearing a "real" human voice supporting you is tremendously powerful.  Please call, and tell us how it goes.

WW

Hi Catlady.  I think Wentworth's suggestion to call the National Domestic Violence Hotline is excellent. 

If you are not able to get through to them via cell, you can always go to their website and on every page there is a Chat Now button  in red.  Their web address is thehotline.org

Please call or go to the site and chat with someone.  They are more familiar with local resources than we are and can be another great source of support for you.

Thank you for the web address.
I still haven't heard from him, he has access to a friend's gun.
However his friend is usually a support for him. I think he would have contacted me or his family if something were to have happened now.
There have been many,many,many suicide threats.
I think that it is a combination of the two, real intent and manipulation.
I just wish he would just respond.

Catlady,

I'm sorry to hear that suicide threats are a common thing for you.  That is a terrible burden for you to bear.

What are your thoughts about calling the hotline?

WW

Hi Catlady,

Can you describe how you normally react to these?  What does a typical situation involve and has he ever made attempts on his life or is it verbal threats so far?  It's possible that he is not responding as a way to cause you alarm.  Have you spoken to the friend?  If you believe he has a gun and is prepared to take his life, how would you feel about calling the police?

My exBPDbf also made many suicide threats and multiple attempts on his life.  He would disappear and turn off his phone.  I know just how much this can fry your nerves.  You will be all too aware how this is affecting you.  What support do you have for yourself in coping with this? 

As well as the suicide helplines available there is a text number that can be used in a crisis, so if your husband refuses to speak to someone, perhaps he'd feel more comfortable sending a text.  You just text HELLO to 741741.  Maybe when you next speak to him or get hold of the friend you could suggest he put this into his phone.

Let us know of any developments Catlady.  We're here for you. 

Love and light x

he is alright!
previously, He has self harmed and went as far as buying rope and things to end his life.
He usually leaves then gets to a place he feels no one can stop him and tells me he is going to.
Sometimes it is verbally in front of me but then he rages on.
He feels like he has no reason to live and that he is a piece of crap and hates himself.
He has never hurt me.
There have been mutual fights. But never outright physical abuse. A few time I have been scared that it may go thatbway. But it never has, as I said it was usually mutual fighting.

My reactions have varied. But I always try and talk him down.

I've begged him to come home and that I love him.

I have not over reacted to the threats and just listened to him when I'm person. He usually calms down and then feels guilt.

This time. I told him I would like to talk to him in person about the cheating. Because I don't fully understand the situation and that I love him and I hope he is okay that both of us are responsible for faults in our relationship and I want to be together and try to be happy.

He has made threats while in a paranoid drug state. holding a  hunting knife to his heart ready to plunge. I have sat for hours upon hours trying to talk him through the delusions. Not telling him how obviously wrong his thinking is but trying to get him to explain it to me and question him in a way that makes him question and come to realization that what he feels is happening is not real.

He will have Nothing to do with a hotline.
though I will tell him about it when the opportunity presents itself.
He is very distrustful of police and I think if police were called he would do it with quickness because he is terrified of going to jail and being locked up. He has anxiety about being trapped and I doubt this would help him in anyway, only push him to it.

I am open to contacting a hotline myself to be more prepared for this situation.
As many times as we have been through this I am still not very prepared or braces for it.

 Catlady,

We will support you but you need local help beyond what we can do here, no matter how much we care and are concerned fur your family.  The calls are anonymous.  I had someone close to me call one and she said that they were very helpful.  Can you make a call and let us know?

Staff has tried out the text line that HQ posted above and found out to be responsive.

 He is no longer making the threat of suicide.


Thank you everyone for your concern and kindness.

Catlady,

I'm glad to hear that the situation is safe for now.  We have been talking about two kinds of hotlines -- suicide prevention hotlines, and domestic violence hotlines.  We can make our best progress in improving things during calm times.  I would suggest that you call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at (800) 799-7233, or chat with them at www.thehotline.org in the next couple of days. so you can describe the various parts of the situation (taking money from you, taking transportation, threatening to commit suicide) and they can help you think through constructive steps you can take.  At the end of the day, you're going to be the decider on any action that you take -- talking to them is simply an important step in breaking your isolation.  How do you feel about giving them a call?

WW

Catlady, there seem to be a lot of similarities in our situations regards the attitudes and behaviours demonstrated by our partners in times of crisis.  Confinement and mistrust of police were also a massive issue with my ex.  I really feel for you.  How does he feel towards hospital staff?  Perhaps he sees them as more caring?  

It's great that you're thinking ahead and wanting to prepare yourself in advance of the next episode.  Contacting the number sounds like a good plan.  My question I came to ask was 'now that the dust has settled, what next?'  In other words, when things calm down following a crisis, how do things normally go between you?  Is it brushed under the carpet, do you talk over what happened, make plans for how to deal with resurfacing thoughts on his part?  I know you said you wanted to speak with him about his cheating.  That must be a very painful prospect for you.  :)o let us know how things go and how you're doing.    

Love and light x

Harley Quinn,
Now that the dust has settled it is very scary because without me being totally accepting of his threats and his cheating. ( which he now says is not actual "cheating" he will lose it again and completely shut me off. I try to stand my ground and question him, kindly mind you. Very carefully question him without accusing or getting upset or saying that his actions were wrong. Quote difficult to do!

Typically with drug use and suicide threat he says he doesn't want to do it anymore and so if he does, it is shifted to blame me for his actions.

I don't know how to bring up rehab or a care facility. He says I am pushing Him or giving him an ultimatum.

It sounds like you are truly walking on eggshells and that's an awful situation to be in.  I know you're reading up and learning tools right now, so I wanted to speak big picture to you for a moment.  Without a change it's likely that this cycle of behaviour will continue and I'm afraid that change is going to have to be led by you.  Here is an excerpt from an article which I feel speaks volumes and certainly did to me when I was in my r/s:

Structure  - A Necessary Relationship Dynamic

The borderline individual's chance at recovery from their desolate and chaotic state, unfortunately, only occurs in extraordinary circumstances. Recovery requires frequent contact with a person who can simultaneously demonstrate, with unwavering certainty, that they care very deeply for the borderline and that they will not tolerate interference with their own boundaries. Such a person must possess supreme confidence in their own personality. They must be able to manage every kind of attack or manipulation with kindness and understanding, and yet never give in. Giving in to the borderline's merger fantasy, or accepting their withdrawal, rage, or blame, results in the borderline believing they are in control. True recognition of the borderline's independence cannot thus occur and the borderline can never achieve a feeling that they are truly independent.

In the end, only the recognition of their true self, given from a truly independent yet loving other, can permit the borderline to build within themselves the confidence they need to truly be independent. In the end, only the recognition that no one has control in relationships, and that everyone must control themselves, a recognition that is made possible only by becoming truly independent, can save the borderline from never-ending sorrow within relationships, and can finally make the borderline feel whole by themselves and capable of living full and integrated lives within relationships and among others.

The above is taken from this article: Why We Struggle in Our Relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships)

I'd encourage you to keep reading the tools and learning all you can before you attempt any conversation around him entering into treatment.  However, it is important that you begin to consider which of your boundaries you are not maintaining in the r/s and how you can begin to affect that.  For example, I allowed myself to give up all of my self care activities including the gym because of my partner's jealousy and I became totally isolated.  Having these things in my life was a value to me that I sacrificed and had a big impact upon me.  You've already started to make progress here by building your own interests outside of the r/s and I'd encourage you to stay firm in your resolve to do these things for yourself.    

I've now read back through all of your posts and feel I have a good overview of your situation.  So much of it is very familiar to me and my heart goes out to you Catlady.  I'm also really thrilled that you are in therapy and taking steps to widen your circle outside of the home.  Finding ways to connect with others is going to really benefit you and the library volunteering idea is a great move.  

For a moment I'd like to focus on your well being.  How is your anxiety level right now and do you see a doctor around your own condition?  I'm guessing that you must be feeling exhausted from all of the upheaval and drama going on so regularly.  What else can you think to do to gather strength for what is ahead?  Are you sleeping, eating?

We are here with you and you'll find the input and advice of others in similar situations at present really helpful I'm sure.  Hopefully others will chime in with how they handle approaching difficult subjects with their partners.

Love and light x

    

Wow that is a lot to take on and it makes me cry. I want to be strong enough to do this. For myself, him and the kids.
I think I got a glimpse of validation for his cheating. It bare but
I was asking him questions and he snapped that he didn't know when and why this turned into 20 questions... .
I responded you truly don't understand why I have many questions?
He said "I do understand why you have so many questions" and then he answered and calmed down a bit and we continued a conversation.

My anxiety level is through the roof. I can't sleep. When I do I wake up in the night and stare at the darkness.
I don't eat much and when I do I am in the bathroom immediately.

It is ironic in that these boundaries are exactly what we needed to  give up for us to be partners.
"I real partnership has no boundaries " (his words,in the beginning our relationahip)
My mind thought that was a great thing but how wrong.
It twisted me into his reality and I took on much of his thoughts and distortions. and applied them to myself. Hurting and thinking the way he does.



He has become receptive to treatment. And he has said he knows he needs it. I asked him what was stoppi mg him from going and he said the hassle but he knows it would help

How do I respond to this without pushi mg him away?

OK Catlady, this we need to address as a priority.  Nothing is more important than your health.  If you want to be strong for yourself and your family then this has to improve for you.  What does your doctor say?


I'm sorry it upset you to read, and I think it's important you're clear on what you're dealing with here so that you can prepare yourself and gather all the information and support that you can.  Make your therapist work and be sure to keep your doctor aware of how your health is so they can help you.  Are any support groups run at your library?

It's great to hear that you managed to hold a reasonable conversation and remained calm when challenged by him.  What were your feelings around what he shared with you?


This is not his first rodeo.


That's wonderful news.  I'd suggest to be gently encouraging.  Validate him about his thoughts on it.  Don't push or pressure him.  I hope others will share their experience with this too.

Here's what the experts say about when we're encouraging a loved one to enter into treatment:

 

(The above is taken from our article on getting a loved on into therapy, which you can find HERE (https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy))

Hopefully reading this brings you a sense of where to head with this.  Do you think you can find something to work with here? 

Love and light x

so today he was very receptive.
His mom came over to see us.(me and kids, he is still not ho me) She took us out to eat and to the store.
I messaged him before we left and tried to comfort him that I would be with her for a while and that I would respect him in not talking to her about him and that I would message him when we returned as I didn't want him to think I was ignoring him. It was four hours.
I come back to messages of panic that we just need to end it all and he needs to disappear.
I reassured him that I love him and we only ate and stopped at the store.
How do I handle this?
This is a huge boundary for me. I need to have contact with people and not be bound to do nothing and go no where unless he is present and wants to do what ever it is.
I know he is very fragile right now and I don't want to push him.
Am I wrong for going today?
 

Hi Catlady.

I am glad you were able to get out today and have some quality time with your kids and his mother.  I would not like someone controlling my behavior or feeling like I had to explain or defend myself.

I am wondering why you contacted him prior to going though?  Was it just to inform him?  Did he panic and then ask questions that prompted you to reassure him or was your reassuring him that you would not talk about him a preemptive move on your part?  I ask because sometimes in our efforts to anticipate and reassure we sort of set up a situation where the other person will be guaranteed to over react or panic. 

You know him best though so I can't say for sure what the best way to communicate with him is.  I do wonder though if instead of informing him before if you had told him after if it would have been better.  You certainly do not want to set up or reinforce the belief that he gets to approve your outings.

Thoughts?

Catlady,

I think you handle the situation well with your mother-in-law's visit.  You simply chose to let him know what was happening so he wouldn't be surprised.  Four hours is not overly long to leave an adult without communication!  It sounds like your response when you returned was reassuring, but short and not apologetic.  You do not have to take responsibility for calming his emotions -- that's his responsibility.  But you can acknowledge and validate his emotions and give basic reassurance.

Regarding that first quote that HQ posted, about a strong, loving person with boundaries being the kind that can help a pwBPD, I got the strong, loving part, but not the boundaries part in my relationship.  I have learned belatedly, and after much damage to me, how important the boundaries are.  I especially was impressed with you clearly stating that you need to have boundaries around seeing people.  You are headed in the right direction with that!

WW

I was wondering the same thing.  I also saw what you wrote earlier when he said "a real partnership has no boundaries."

In a relationship with someone who exhibits abandonment anxiety, control becomes a one way street,  and we learn to accept it in order to keep the peace. I was so "trained" to respond to my ex,  I rear ended a vehicle at a right turn yield.  She had just texted "when are you going to be home?" I felt anxious enough that I didn't part attention.  I was literally 7 minutes from home.  

I understand,  as you probably do,  why you would tell him.  Objectively, however,  you and MIL have a right to have lunch.  Rather than anticipating his anxieties, you can be truthful and brief.  "Had lunch with your mother and the kids." If he asks,  "no,  we didn't talk about you." If that is true. It might need to be repeated in a neutral voice, or repeated using SET.

I told him ahead of time because  We were talking. And things were going really well.
I told him we were going with her for a while and would message when we got back. Because he feels ignored and his mood quickly deteriorates.
He often feels like his mom"sides" with me.and pushes me to abandon him. She doesn't.
Him and his mom do not have great relationship but she is a good lady and has dealt with a lot of her own issues and they have buttheads heads often.
She loves him though and is a great gramma to all of our kids.

When I got back and saw the messages and replied he was calmed and said"  I thought you were leaving me to live with her for a while not just a few hours. I thought you had taken the kids and left for good. "

My response was " God no. I am sorry you felt that way for four hours. I would be upset too. "
 
THEN THINGS WERE BACK ON TRACK!

He wants to come home and he wants to got to therapy in the morning.
I didn't push or beg him to come home. He i s making these choices on his own. I'm so happy about this.
I told him it wouldn't be easy and it isn't an instant all over relief, at least it wasn't for me. And how my first day went... .

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.
I know the challenges aren't over but god  bless we are baby stepping it there I hope.
(Baby steps to the hall! Lol
Bill Murray is the man!)

I'm so thankful for all of you and this site.
I have just understood I can't do this isolated. I have to have someone to talk to. Boundaries need to be there and have respect for one another. I can't control him. And I don't want to. nor vice versa But I can love him and respect his feelings and separate them from my own.

I think it is going to be super hard to do in person all the time and that is worrying me. But feeling like I understand the tools better now.

Thank you guys. It's hard to believe total strangers can be so caring and have been through the same things I'm going through. I can't say thank you enough.

You're welcome Catlady.  Someone was here doing the same things for us when we all arrived here.  We support one another here and I'm sure you make a big difference to others who read your threads and to those whose threads you join to support them too.  It's a family.

I'm so pleased things are going positively right now.  It won't always be easy, but with the tools you can help yourself and your husband to communicate better with one another and restore some balance in your lives, at least for some of the time.  What is vitally important is that you take good care of yourself and your own needs.  

The sleep and eating do concern me.  It's hard enough as a mother without feeling exhausted and light headed.  Trust me I know.  How can you ensure you get more rest and what have you found that you can keep down if you eat it?  You may have to start gradually and build up.  Meantime, there are meal replacement drinks which give you all the nutrients your body requires that you can purchase or may be able to get from your doctor.  I'd suggest that you speak to the doctor around your anxiety too if you haven't already?  That's one of the best decisions I made for myself when I was going through similar.  

Remember that when an aeroplane gets into trouble and the oxygen masks come down, you must secure your own mask first.  Being in a relationship that requires you to be a caretaker is exactly the same thing.  Put you first, then you can help and support your husband and children effectively.  I'd love to hear about what you're able to implement for yourself and how things are going at home.  Stay in touch.  We care.  

Love and light x  

Hi again Catlady.  I too am very glad to hear that things are more settled. 

I hope you continue to post especially now that things have settled down as this is the time when you can really focus on helping yourself and learning the tools without having so much fear and anxiety making things even harder.

I understand why you told him ahead of time.  It makes sense.  I just want to make sure you are not setting up a situation where you need to ask for permission more than you sort of already do.  As you said, being able to interact with others is vital.

Take good care and I will be looking forward to hearing more from you.   

Let me second what HQ and Harri have said.  You must take care of yourself, and times of calm are the time when you can make the most progress in learning the tools and bettering the relationship.  Read up, and check out the tools on this Web site such as validation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating).  Of course, you already did a great job of validating his feelings when he thought you'd abandoned him.  |iiii  It was nice to see how effective that was.  You won't always have success.  We're here to cheer you when things are going well and when they aren't.

What is your highest priority for growth/improvement when he returns?

WW

my highest priority ... .At this moment,for the relationship, I am just shooting for not fighting. Communication and being able to disagree.
For myself,I try my best to take care of myself.I want to get back in shape. And am s till going to find a reason to get outside everyday we can.

We'll see how things go. My son and daughter both need to go to the doctor this morning. It was an unexpected visit.
 I asked him what time he was thinking of going(to therapy) tomorrow?
Cause I could take them to doctors around his plans.

He said that was a "loaded question and he isn't going to be controlled" ( this was like a switch for his attitude)
 I said " I'm only asking cause I didn't want to interrupt your plans by assuming when you wanted to go. You told me you were going to go, I never insisted.
I don't want to control you at all and I surely don't want to make you do anything you don't want to do. "

I hope that was good.
He stayed angry til he went to bed but did tell me good night.
And we did NOT fight about it. I feel good about that even if today turns out with no therapy...
 I really hope for.

Being able to disagree constructively is something of an advanced topic.  That can be difficult for our pwBPD.  But lessening the conflict is definitely realistic nearer term.  It's good to head off trouble as far upstream as possible.  With the benefit of looking at it after the fact, we see that you asking about therapy triggered him.  You might have avoided fireworks by avoiding that hot button entirely, saying "I need the car to take the kids to the doctor tomorrow, but can schedule it around your plans.  Do you need the car tomorrow?"  If you want to add therapy at the end (not the beginning) of that sentence, perhaps in case he forgot, you could do that, but you might get a backlash -- that's your call.  It might be best to avoid that kind of caretaking behavior unless he has accepted it (reminder of therapist appointment) in the past.

Your answer to him was gentle, but sounds a bit like JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0).  Could you have approach this in a way that validated his feelings of being crowded or controlled?  Mastering the art of avoiding JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0) is a great first step to reducing conflict.

WW

Hi Catlady,

I'm just wondering how the rest of the day went?  Did your husband make any move towards going to the therapy he was up for attending?  If not, how do you feel about that?  Wentworth has given you a link to some really good info.  It's something I wished I'd seen before I did.  Hope it is helpful.

Love and light x

Thank you ww
I'll read over the Jade and validation links again.
No therapy yesterday which was a let down. It was disappointing. It seemed so close.
But I didn't argue with him or get (outwrdly) upset about it.
I didn't bring it up again.I
But now I feel that because he feels controlled or pushed I won't be able to bring it up in conversation anymore without it being a fight.

That's a very uncomfortable feeling for you and I'm afraid that may be his aim (whether consciously or not) to deter you from raising it.  Do you think he has changed his mind altogether?  Just to check, when he was first receptive, was it yourself that brought it up and in what context if so?  Perhaps something around that situation can give you clues as to when and how this type of discussion will be best received. 

Rather than outright asking about it right away, is there anything you can be doing as groundwork do you think, to improve the atmosphere at home?  What might be a quick win for you in building trust and reinforcing his awareness?  I'm wondering what concerns he has voiced about the situation as it stands that you could work with and validate.  The best time to have a conversation with him is when he is calm and balanced emotionally.  If he is dysregulated it will not be a productive talk and could serve to drive him further away from your desired outcome.

How is his behaviour overall towards you at the moment since his return?

Love and light x

Catlady,

Regarding getting someone into therapy, it's a long game.  I think you might find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy).  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is an hour and forty minutes long.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help! How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment."  In the video, he says that two things are predictive of whether or not someone will stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner. 

I'm giving you this info because I think it's the best resource we have about getting someone into therapy.  But keep in mind that no matter how brilliant you are, getting someone else to do something is a long shot.  Don't burden yourself with the responsibility to fix everything.  Give it a go, understanding that you are in extra credit territory -- it's a worthwhile thing to attempt, but always be mindful of how things are going, and your personal health and safety.

WW

I know it isn't my place and I know I can't get him in because I want too. I just don't think it is going to work if he doesn't get into therapy. I know too that I can't give any ultimatums.
in between a rock and a hard spot.

I feel like I'm sneaking around to talk to friends. When I get on here as I can't post or read into while he is present.
I hate that.

His attitude since he has been home is mostly decent. He is anxious all the time, and irritated and he shakes constantly with nerves.
I try to keep the kids at arms length because I don't know what he might say or do. And I dont want them to be hurt anymore.
I don't leave the baby with him. He makes sarcastic remarks and puts us down sometimes in a joking manner.
Like he called my son gay because he dyed his hair. And I just responded I'm alright with that if he is happy in life.
 I am constantly looking at him to see how this demeanor is.
I'm nervous it's going to boil over all the time. I'm worried he'll snap for no real reason.

How did it come up...
He was down on himself and so I said well what would make you feel better about yo ur self.
I was thinking a walk a jog.
PAainting. Etc.
He replied that he needs medication and therapy twice a week.
I asked what was stopping him if that's what he wants to do.
He said the hassle of it.
And that he would set up an appt.
I said the place I went you have to show up in person to have an appt. He said then I'll do that monday.I
I'm short.
I told him it'd didn't come easy and would be hard work etc.

I think that is what he thought I wanted to hear and so he said it.
And is using the way I asked to validate him not going.
Putting it back on me as being controlling.
I

I have no ideas of how to build trust with him or and this is my BIG question
How to reinforce his awareness?
What would a conversation like this sound like?
I clearly can't say hey you admitted you needed help, when and why and how will you go?

I'm going to read through the how to get a borderline into therapy and continue reading.

Catlady,

Yes, definitely read that material, and consider reading the book that speaker wrote.  I have not read it, so if you do, come back and tell us what you thought.

You are right, unless he gets help, he is not likely to change.  Getting him into therapy is a worthwhile long-term goal, but is not something to pin your hopes on, not something to twist yourself into a pretzel over.  Study up, give it a go.  But focus most of your efforts on things you can control to make your day-to-day life better.

What skills have you been practicing lately (not JADEing, validating, etc.).  Any successes or challenges you'd like to share with us?  Any troubles you're searching for a tool for?

WW

Imagine for a moment that he doesn't go to therapy.  What do you see happening?  What does that version of the future look like to you?


I've tied the above quotes together as I am thinking about ways that you can show the same level of care about how he is feeling in order to open up further dialogue.  Not to push for the action, but to get him to feel more comfortable talking and thinking about how he is affected.  Could you simply say "It must be so hard for you to feel this anxious" or "You seem irritated.  That's really difficult for you.  I don't like to feel that way when it happens to me.  What could you do right now to help you to feel more relaxed?"

The alternative is to tie this sort of dialogue in with what he specifically talked about when he was down on himself.  What was bothering him?  Raising this may be a little more tricky if he were to feel like it was leading somewhere, but perhaps you could check in when he seems settled and just enquire about something specific that he acknowledged.  That way you're not bringing up something he isn't ready to think about or admit.

I'm in agreement with Wentworth that this is a long term goal in that if he does go to therapy it will take time before he sees any major change or improvement.  Nothing is guaranteed.  Considering the present as a priority I have to ask how old all of the children are?  Just so I'm clear on the level of their understanding of their father's behaviour.


I'm so sorry that you find yourself having to do that.  It must be so hard for you and also the children.  What is his reaction to being kept at a distance from the kids?  Can you give us an example of something he might do, based on your experiences of what has happened in the past?  What do you fear most Catlady?

I know I've asked some hard questions here.  If it's too much to answer all at once, take your time.  We're listening. 

Love and light x   

Yesterday, I used his phone. He told me I could the night before and so I made some phone calls in the morning. When he woke up his phone had automatically updated or something.
He accused me of going through his phone and sending myself files he had saved.
I of course didn't. I didn't look at his messages or anything.
So once accused I started to Jade. Then I thought... I don't have to because it isn't an act. I truly didn't do anything wrong.
Realizing that and then accepting I didn't have to defend my innocence helped me greatly!
At first i said
I don't know what you're talking about. I used it to make some calls. Then I just shut up. Because I knew it was dragging me into an argument that just wasn't necessary.
I continued the day as if I hadn't done any thing and I was decent to him.
He calmed down but stayed angry. Then he later apologized saying it was an all time list and the items had been sent to his email not mine.

HQ,
Sometimes I get the feeling I want to go and sometimes I get the feeling I want to stay.
I have to keep telling myself that maybe if I set the example and go and I seem better to him maybe he will be more willing to go.
What does a future without him in therapy look like...
Sad and lonely and painful.

Those quotes work sometimes if they are perceived as genuine.
I need to repeat them and make the common in my responses.

As for the kids. I am always present when they are and they know that if I happen to be laying down with the baby they are to do their home work and leave him alone.
I send them out of I'm going to be out. To the park or a friends.
I fear most that him and my son will get into a physical fight.
They don't have a good relationship and my son is hard headed and angry a lot and sometimes disrespectful.
He has accused my son of talking to people he shouldn't (being a traitor) and accused him of sneaking and spying on him.
When my son is around him, son is constantly looking at husband. I think because he is worried. Husband thinks it is to bother him. He doesn't know how husband is going to react at any moment, over what we have no clue.
When he gets mad at the kids he screams and rages and tears them down. He says things that shouldn't be said to a kid.
I do not leave him in a place to punish kids. I step in without trying to undermine him.
He knows I try to be a middle man, even with his son.
I let things go that should be dealt with by husband.
 his son and I deal with each other one on one.
Meaning if he is  bad then I talk to him. Some times he doesn't listen but for the biggest part if he is wrong he admits it and does
What's asked. He is a really good kid.
It is a gamble to bring an issue up to husband. Because he will decide one is right and one of us are wrong.
Example. I told stepson that they needed to be out the door for school by 730. They were all running too close to being late for school.
Stepson argued and ignored me. Then caused them to miss a bus for one.
I brought it to up husband, step son lied and said they had left on time. His clock said this, mine must have been wrong.
Husband goes on rant to step son of how I am crazy and step son doesn't have to listen to me. And he expects him to do right, not by my standard but because he is better than me or my two.

Out Kids are:
Our son almost 3
My two
Girl 11
Boy 13
His oldest 17

I'm so sorry that this is how you are feeling.  It is positive that you managed the phone situation in a conscious way and it seemed to go well.  :)id it feel like an improvement to you compared to previous interactions of this nature?  It can feel a bit unnatural at first to implement some of these things, but as you do it more it will become a good habit and second nature.  It sounds like you have a lot of good reasons to want things to be better at home for yourself and your children.  When faced with a chance of things spiralling, try to always pause and take a breath to give yourself time to gather yourself and act in a measured way.  Sometimes the pressure to respond can get to us.  I've been there.


That has to be a real worry for you.  To imagine your 13 year old pitched against a fully grown and very angry man is not a concern that you want to be having.  Has your son spoken to you or anyone (perhaps a school counsellor?) about why he is angry a lot?  This must be so difficult for you to see.  Has your husband ever threatened any of you physically, or used physical intimidation Catlady?  :)o you think your husband recognises that you are actively keeping the kids away from him and does he understand why?  I'm wondering if you've ever talked to him about his behaviour towards them when he is calm and receptive.  Hearing him say things to them that kids should never hear has to be awful for you.  How do you handle this with them?


Catlady that must wear you down.  How does it make you feel to hear that?  The fact you're going to therapy is a huge positive for you and I'm so pleased that you are investing in yourself in this way by devoting time just for you.  You're dealing with an awful lot and giving yourself that self care is vital in helping you to keep going.  Reaching out for support is a wise move indeed.  It's such a relief to me that you found this site.  You can never have too large a support network.  

Love and light x  

Great job not JADEing!  |iiii

Harley Quinn has asked some great questions.  I'll hold off on any more thoughts while you chew on those.

WW

 It did feel like an improvement.
Typically I'd explain all the reasons I didn't do something and then, what could have happened.
But that only makes me look guilty when In fact I haven't done anything wrong.
My son has been through alot. he just started talking to his dad after 4 years of no contact.
And before I realized what was going on with the mood swings and such on my husband's end, he got punished alot.
Since taking on full responsibility and being with him at all times  things are better between son and i. And neutral with him and husbamd
I asked for him to speak to a school counselor but they haven't spoke with him.

No he hasn't ever threatened physical violence and I don't think he would just outright start a physical fight. But when he is off balance he is a totally different person.  If my son were to hit or push him there would be a reaction and I don't know if he would control himself.
Yes, he knows I try to be the middle man with the kids.
The last big fight... When he came back it was with the intent of me staying home to deal with the kids, because it was too much for him.
There is really no time to criticise him in any way. Once he feels criticised he is instantly angered.
I have explained to the kids for them to be respectful and to address him when they come home" hello , how was your day"
And that gauges his mood.
I explained to them that the things he says about them and me  are wrong and it is really a projection of how he feels about himself.
That he beats himself up and the stuff we hear is an overflow.
He is wrong when he is nasty. And to not apply those mean things to them self.
That's about all I know to say or do.
I also know that while I get depressed I go to auto pilot , I cut off from them and everyone. So I have set a goal of hugging and praising and making sure I interact with them all for something everyday, no matter what I feel like.


It makes me angry to hear the things he says sometimes.
On the total opposite of him siding with step son. He has severely punished step son for minor things I have mentioned to him.
We tend to keep him out of any issues becayse , no matter which of us are right. There is no telling how he reacts.

Because it has been an ongoing rollercoaster for several years, I feel like I need an instant fix to the problems
But I know really I need to let go of fixing the problems and build day by day.

From what you say, your husband recognises he has problems and that is a positive thing.  Being able to maintain an open dialogue around that in a supportive way is going to be helpful towards that longer term goal, whilst remembering that they are HIS problems to solve, not yours.  Your job is to consider what your difficulties are and to address those and those of your children, as your husband does not have the ability to regulate himself emotionally in order to provide them with the stability and consistency that they need.  It sounds like you're doing the best you can with what you have and yes, it is a case of taking it day by day.

Suffering with your pmdd is really hard on top of all of this.  Try to go easy on yourself and communicate with the kids about how you're feeling.  They are old enough to understand that you're not feeling so great today and won't make their own assumptions then that it is anything to do with them.  How does your daughter cope with the atmosphere at home?

It has to be difficult for you with your condition to not have support with the kids from your husband.  Four children is a lot of responsibility to shoulder by yourself.  I only have one child and find it very hard at times with my pain and depression.  Can you see a time when you have some help and don't need to do all this by yourself?  

It's unfortunate that the school counsellor hasn't yet spoken to your son.  In your shoes I'd be inclined to follow up on that.  Remember this phrase when it comes to getting support for your family:  Only squeaky wheels get oiled.  I have a long term condition too and this motto has been really helpful in my pursuing the help and support I need to manage it.  Medical and mental health professionals have a huge job and unless we are making noise about our difficulties they are onto the next patient.  I learned the hard way that things can fall through the cracks, like promised appointments and referrals.  It's always worth a gentle reminder.



I think it's fair to say that you're all walking on eggshells at present.  :)o you think that's an accurate description?  The tools here will hopefully help with that as you practise them.  :)o let us know about specific instances where you have difficulty so that someone can work through this with you.  I'm also not surprised to hear that you feel angry sometimes at the things he says.  I'd feel angry too.  How are you managing that?  :)o you express your feelings to him?  There's an article I'd really like to introduce to you, if you've not already seen it.  At the bottom there is a link to further discussion on the topic.  It's about boundaries and I'm pretty sure that it may help you to think about what is OK in your opinion and what is not in your present situation.  The next step is to think about what you can do in order to move towards respecting your own boundaries.  We can help you with this here.  You can find the article I'm referring to HERE (https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries).  I'd love to hear your thoughts and any questions you have after looking at this.  Boundaries for myself remain a work in progress, and as I learn to apply them in my life I am finding it has a positive effect on my overall wellbeing and my sense of self worth.  We all deserve to honour our values.

Well done on what you've achieved so far!    

Love and light x  

  

HQ,
Thank you for your response. Its so difficult to unwrap His problems and My problems. I'm trying to work on myself and leave his problems to him. Easier said than done haha
I try to communicate with the kids.
 something I notice everyone in the house didn't under stand was me kind of huffing and puffing around.
They thought I was mad at them and honestly I didn't realize I was huffing and puffing. I have other health issues and deal with pain everyday. 
So I had to explain to everyone that it was unconscious and I was sorry. And since then I try and verbally whine a bit, even though it's not my style. So it is obvious I am hurting and not angry. Squeaky wheels get oiled!... At least in this case they know the squeaky wheel is a little rusty.
My daughter, she seems to block it all out. She doesn't take it personally and if she does it doesnt  show.
She has a lot of friends and occupies her time well.
All seems well but I know it bothers her more than she shows.

Husband cooks a few times a week. He's a great cook. But he rarely picks up after himself in anyway.
The kids are super troopers in help around the house.
I think the only break I'll get is when the baby is in school.

I do need to check up on a school counselor. I think it might do both of them Some good.

Walking on egg shells is absolutely an accurate description.
Typically No I don't express much of any emotion to him. Even love,sadness or happiness. He doesn't do well with too much emotion in any direction.
But last night we were joking around and then he called "mommy a liar and said all women lie" and all with a smile on his face. repeating it 3x
 I said that's not really a nice thing to say and he shouldn't think his mommy is a liar.
It seemed to be a bait into an argument for whatever the reason. He tried to push a button to make me angry seeming from no where. Asking why shouldn't I tell him that that when you have lied before.
 I said you're well aware why things like that shouldn't be said to a baby.
That was it, he was back to joking nicely and things were mostly calm.
It seemed like a test?

I'm not sure it was necessarily a test as much as him saying what he feels (which equals a fact with a pwBPD) without having any ability/empathy in that moment to recognise the impact that has on a child.  Or on you.  Thoughtless speech is something I've had issues with from my son's father (NPD traits) and it's very frustrating. 

I'm glad to hear that you maintained your boundary there on what is acceptable to say to your young son.  Perhaps the fact that he moved on easily from that is an indicator that you can also remain as firm in other areas?  Is it possible that you are avoiding saying something in case of a reaction that isn't guaranteed?  What happens when he is angry?  Do you fear his rages?

Love and light x 

I do avoid saying anything to him that may cause any disagreements. Because I so desperately need to NOT fight
I have told him flat out I am not fighting anymore. I will not scream and argue and call each other mean names. So far any time that has started I walk awy. Period.
that is the biggest boundary for m e.
But it really isn't fair to if me to decide how he is going to react is it? It's not my job.
It is my job to be honest and be myself and to say what I mean.
His reaction isn't guaranteed, I'm expecting every reaction to be negative and that's not good.
Yes his rages have torn the house apart, torn the kids apart, security, it is detrimental. And that's terrifying, but I can't control that.

Catlady, I wanted to say that I'm particularly impressed with your dedication to taking time for the children, hugging them, and giving them attention every day.  I do not have a lot of experience with depression, but I went through a few weeks a little while back where I could barely be mentally present for D13.  I know it's a tough fight, but every win will pay off for your kids.

I can't remember if I've said this already, but one thing I read and have found true is the power of making observations about what your children are doing.  Just comment on what they're wearing, what they're doing, if they seem upbeat or tired, etc.  Simple, neutral observations have tremendous power.  They'll know you're paying attention to them.  Practice making as many comments per day as possible.  It pays off.

WW

Catlady I can't tell you how happy it makes me to read your post above.  It sounds like you're gaining some clarity around what is happening for you and that is so important in beginning to take steps towards making things better, for you.  It seems like you've felt forced to pay more attention to how to manage your husband's dysregulation than to what that does to you all.  You are not responsible for his behaviour.  You're only responsible for your own.  

I'm really pleased to see that you have asserted a boundary on yourself around your tolerance for shouting and name calling.  It's a great start.  Now, rather than continuing to walking on eggshells I hope we can help you to get to a place where your husband needs to take responsibility for himself and you can be yourself and speak your truth, with the tools here and some dedication and practise on your part.  How does that sound to you?

Love and light x    

HQ,That actually feels wonderful. It's a relief to place only my actions and only my reactions in my own shoulders.
And I know I'm going to have to chisel this into my head and accept it.
It's hard to unwrap from someone when you have spent years tangled into them.

WW, thank you for the encouragement and that's a great idea on just commenting. It starts a conversation. I'll try to make as many comments to each child every day.

I find when I'm dealing with my pwBPD, I need to re-teach this to myself on a weekly or even daily basis.  :)on't get discouraged if you slip up and have to re-learn it.  Just keep climbing back on the horse.  You'll start to fall off less with practice.


The wonderful thing about neutral observations is that you can give an unlimited number of them.  Compliments can be good, but if you give too many they become meaningless, and it's important for mom's compliments to have value.  The other thing I've learned is that kids, especially teenagers, hate questions.  I try to keep it to observations, and like you said, it can start a conversation and I may find out what I want.  If I don't, I can say "I wonder... ." instead of asking a question.  Of course, they might not offer the information, but you will have avoided antagonizing them.  Observations can also be used when you want them to do something.  Instead of saying, "Please fill the dog's water," you can say "I see the dog's water bowl is empty."  They may just fill it, then you can compliment them.  B.t.w., I'm getting this stuff out of a book my therapist recommended when I was talking to her about reestablishing my ability to parent my kids after dealing with a spouse who disrupted my parenting.  The book is, "Transforming the Difficult Child -- The Nurtured Heart Approach," by Glasser.

WW

That sounds like a really good book! I'm going to have to read it. I always need help with parenting. My 13 yo  is a great kid but a hand full at times. Sadly I'm learning by my mistakes as I'm teaching him.
I explained to them that there are things that have taken me years to understand, not even accomplished but understand. And so some things are hard for me to teach because I'm just now learning. Problem solving, temper control.(currently letting go of what is not my place to control). So on
Do you have any suggestions on books for teens and how to deal with a BPD parent or parent with any disorder?

Everyone needs help with parenting!


Whenever our youngest daughter complains that we are doing something differently with her than with her two big sisters, we say, "They were our practice children, with you, we are going to do it right!"


I have asked myself this question, but not found any.  There might be some out there, but I haven't found them.  The problem is that labeling their parent when they are still kids kind of throws that parent under the bus.  It's also awkward and potentially unhealthy to keep secrets from the other parent ("don't show this book to your dad".  The best advice I've heard is to think of the traits in your pwBPD that you don't want your children to pick up.  Then think of the positive opposites.  You want them to have empathy.  You want them to be able to control their emotions, etc.  Find books that help with that, and be your child's guide in developing those skills.  They will then be better equipped to decide for themselves what behaviors of your husbands and of yours they want to take to adulthood.  A great book is, The Heart of Parenting: Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child, by John Gottman.  I pretty much love anything by Gottman   I have the book sitting here on my bedside table... .OK, on the inside flyleaf, it says, "The Heart of Parenting is a guide to teaching children to understand and regulate their emotional world."  Hmm... .that sounds relevant to our situations!   Despite the fact that it's decorating my bedside table, it's been a long time since I read it.  I'm probably due for another pass.  Thanks for making me think of it!

*mod*

This thread has been locked due to length.  The discussion has been continued at the thread below.

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