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Hi all,

Not long after I discovered my wife's BPD and the board I also discovered that I was codependent in most of my relationships. Since then I have had a few near breakdowns, which I had originally attributed completely to the stress of coping with a BPD wife, raising 2 young children, and living in a foreign country. Now I am realizing how much of my state is related to all of the anger I have swallowed and suppressed over the years.

These days every cell of my body and mind feels saturated with anger and frustration. It takes very little to provoke a reaction from me. I snap at my wife from time to time, but it is worse with S5. He is a sweet child but very naughty and provocative sometimes, and I end up taking out anger towards my wife on him too often. I can't tolerate this in myself.  

I became more aware of my anger recently after confiding about my wife's illness with my aunt, who has become a wonderful and loving support. She talked to me about how she built up a ton of rage taking care of my uncle and my cousin, who both have Tourettes, because she knew they were sick and couldn't let herself express anger towards them. A few years ago she saw a counselor who let her express her anger in their sessions and she said it was like cleaning out her soul. I am planning a session with my T where I can hopefully do the same. I suspect I also have anger for my BPDish mother who died before I could genuinely express my anger.

So I am opening this thread for anyone who is trying to cope with anger, codependent or otherwise. Besides therapy, I would very much like to hear the stories of others as to how they deal with anger in a BPD relationship where the other person is incapable of listening to our feelings about their behavior. Thank you.  

~RolandOfEld

Hey ROE,

YES YES YES YES

I have found that one of the most significant steps I have taken regarding the mal-direction (just made that word up) of anger/frustration towards my kids is being able to OBSERVE YOURSELF. I observed a couple of things:

1) Occasions where I was emotionally dysregulated because of things my wife had done which meant that my tolerance for kids doing kid things was less. My reaction (rather than response) was greater and disproportionate to the kids behaviour and I actually perpetuated the kids bad behaviour by escalating the situation, fueling the fire and NOT behaving in an adult way. remember pwBPD do not have a monopoly on emotional dysregulation, it happens to us all when we reach the point of overflow.

2) As part of being an emotional caretaker of my wife I reacted disproportionally to child-like behaviour. Children are stressful and they naturally generate stress with their naturally chaotic behaviour. I naturally do not like chaos. For me, chaos = unhappy wife... .unhappy wife = pain in my direction. I was preventing my children acting in a childish way, flourishing as children because it came into direct conflict with my aim to make wife happy by managing her environment/stressors.

What did I conclude from my observations:

1) Being angry/frustrated with kids when kids are not responsible for my discomfort will result in their confusion and possibly physiological damage. Children who cannot associate cause and effect i.e. their behaviour with my anger/frustration will ultimately blame themselves and possibly develop PD's when they are older... .and that will be my fault.

2) I should have a relationship with my kids independently of my relationship with my W. The 2 relationships are not linked.

3) I cannot and shouldn't protect my W from the normal course of chaos associated with children. Children are children and behave like children. They are not adults and I should not treat them as adults capable of adult cognition... .learn about child development and child emotional development.

4) Learn to living with chaos... .sit with the uncomfortableness, it will pass. Observe OCD behaviours like cleaning and tidying.

5) Sometimes it's better to walk away from a child or ask for help when you know you are on a knife-edge. Observe the physical signs, tightening chest, headache, shaking hands. sore eyes, aching legs. Observe the emotional signs. It's better to take yourself out the equation than do something you might regret or something that could cause long term damage to the kids.

6) If you are running into conflict with kids regularly you may have your boundaries to tight... .or you are not consistent with YOUR boundaries and rules. YOU can have rules and boundaries INDEPENDENTLY from your wife and the kids will judge you INDEPENDENTLY from her.

Read up on Authoritative, Authoritarian and Passive parenting and Ju-Jitsu parenting.   

Hey ROE,

It's been awhile!   My   goes out to you! I'm hoping to be back around more again and catch up with folks. Interesting thread you've started here.

Anger is a strange emotion for me. I never quite know what to do with it. I really don't like being angry, I can't stand that out of control feeling. I can sure be grouchy lately though, but I see and call myself on it.  At times I've gone for it and just spoken lately when I would have otherwise hesitated. I got lucky. Sometimes my SO could handle it. When I could tell he couldn't I'd stop myself and let it be enough that I said anything I was really thinking.

I've started up daily meditation this month (Meditation May I'm calling it to remind myself) to regain patience which I tie to anger. I notice when I can slow my reactions I won't get so stirred up and can laugh more stuff off. But in a way I'm lucky - that I have even that space to get laughs and jokes going, or can carve out that space. I know many here often don't have that opportunity.

with compassion, pearl.  

p.s. Enabler what a helpful/insightful reply!  :)

I have been dealing with quite a bit of anger as well.  You are right, that when expressing anger is forbidden by the people we are with or by circumstances, it can do a lot of damage.  When it finally becomes safe to express the anger, it can be tough to find it and get it out.

Therapy is excellent.  Exercise when you are angry is good to level yourself out.  I particularly like what Enabler said about observing.  This is a mindfulness practice.  Mindfulness is practiced in many places, and also is one of the four cornerstones of DBT.  It helps with emotional regulation, another DBT cornerstone.  Basically, the idea is to observe without judging.  Recently, I've been so angry with my wife that I couldn't see straight, but simply observing this, and reminding myself that I'm with a child who should not see that anger, has helped me.  I'll use other tools at the same time, like taking a break from the child to catch my breath, then coming back quickly, etc.

My therapist has been saying that trauma is cumulative, and I wonder if that might apply to anger as well.  She says that clearing out and dealing with traumas from childhood can help reduce your overall burden and improve your ability to handle the traumas of today.  Perhaps dealing with unresolved anger from the past with your therapist's help would help you today.

WW

I definitely think this is true. Pent-up anger can build up like sewage in a septic tank, and eventually it will leak out. For me it comes out during times when I am feeling stressed, frustrated and overwhelmed and then I have to deal with something totally normal like a screaming two year old who is throwing toy trucks for the 957th time today. Anxiety also plays a big part in anger and losing my temper. I believe my dad suffered from anxiety for years before he was actually diagnosed with it (in his eighties) because I remember him losing his temper and yelling a lot as a kid. Looking back now, I believe his behavior was anxiety-related.

Losing my patience with S2 is the hardest for me to accept about myself and be honest about with myself. It is also the most pressing thing I want to change immediately. It is not S2's fault that he is a toddler and does things that are frustrating but completely normal to do for a two year old. I do not want to take out my unresolved anger on him. It is cruel and unfair and could possibly cause him damage psychologically and I do not want that for him. So I am working on dealing with the aftermath of trauma and abuse in therapy.

I agree with the walking away rule if you feel you are too stressed to respond to the child in a calm manner. i also have to take a step back and figure out why I am getting so upset over certain behaviors. Messes tend to be a trigger for me. I feel the urgent need to clean them up right away and I usually do not feel like cleaning anything so I get frustrated. I have tried to learn to not be so uptight or feel so pressured to clean something up immediately. I think that may be an after-effect from uBPDh complaining about my housecleaning and calling me lazy. I nearly killed myself when I was pregnant trying to live up to his impossible standards.

Writing in a journal can be very cathartic for anger. If you can't express anger to the person you are angry with, and you don't have a therapist appointment that day, write in a journal. It helps to get the angry feelings out of your head.

thanks for starting this thread, ROE.

Blessings to you and your family,

Redeemed

Kids at this age can be maddening even if we love them to pieces,  as I do D6 and S8 (with ASD1). Since they were old enough to be like "real people" I've been mindful of not being like my BPD mother.  I was often sent to school in tears, not understanding how I triggered my mother.  D6 gave me an attitude this morning trying to get her ready for school.  A lot of this is normal at these ages.

How are do you feel that you are taking your anger out on him,

Morning funsters, I'm in a chipper mood because the sun is back in London again today... .whoop. Couple of things I have thought of:

- I observed that I adopted other peoples moods... .as though they were infectious. I believe this stems from control issues of a sort. I wanted everyone (well the people in my close family whom I care about and believe are in my zone of influence) to be happy. When they are not happy I see it as 'my fault', and this would cause anxiety in me to build. The remedy for this was accepting that just because someone else is angry or upset, doesn't mean I have to be. This is especially relevant with the kids. I felt my anxiety rise when they were throwing their toys out the pram even when it didn't have anything to do with me or was completely out of my control. Standing back and internally chuckling to yourself is of great help. As the kids become older and more gobby it's easy to look at them as more adult than they are. Accepting that they are still emotional children even if they say adult things allows you to stay internally calm whilst a whirlwind is going on around you.

- Although I don't buy into all the things mindfulness teaches, I do feel that being aware of your environment is of great help sometimes. Sucking in a good glug of fresh air, what can you smell, what sounds can you hear, how does the sun feel on your face. It gives you those few seconds or minutes of letting all the other stuff just wash over you.

I have said this before but I will say it again. For me emotions are like a pint glass... .take a pint glass and put it in the sink... .take a large jug of water and start tipping it in bit by bit. Each bit is stress, a trigger, unhappiness, fear. When you get to the very very top... .you're still in control. That next bit is when you start shouting, or dysregulating. You can no longer hold all the stressors in and your emotions have to flow. As these stresses diminish the water level reduces till maybe we get to and empty glass (totally chillaxed). For many of us and arguably all of our pwBPD there is a large volume of water in the glass that is there permanently, it's almost a constant, for a pwBPD it could be childhood trauma, for us it could be the constant stress of living with a pwBPD and the guilt and shame that has been placed on us. It means we're that much closer to the top of the glass... .closer to the point where we dysregulate. My feeling is that even just educating ourselves about BPD, understand that we can let go of guilt and shame, understand the chaos, it lowers that permanent block of liquid that keeps us soo near the top, ready to overflow.

Wow, thanks everyone for your tremendous response!



Enabler and WW I really like the water analogy and the idea of anger as cumulative. I used to think I was reacting to today's dysfunction, but now I think I am reacting to a much deeper narrative of guilt and manipulation that goes all the way back to the beginning of our relationship and even beyond that to my mother. This anger is harder to "find" as WW mentioned.

Turkish the anger at its worst takes the form of yelling at my son and often gripping him hard (I think maybe too hard) on the arms to try and make him calm down and listen. Yesterday while I was bathing D2 he dipped his foot in paint and ran around the house (after I yelled at him not to do this two days ago). When I yelled at him about it he just laughed. I felt like Batman with the Joker in the interrogation scene from the Dark Knight. These are the times when it gets out of control. I eventually went into the bedroom and calmed myself down.

Redeemed I tried the journaling starting today and I think it will help to get that stuff out of my head and onto paper in the real world. Pearls I really like the idea of slowing my reaction.

~ROE

ROE, you taken some pretty big and brave steps there in that last post... .well done. No, it's not awesome parenting, but you know that already. What is awesome is making yourself accountable, to us at least, and to yourself. Well done.

Using the paint incident as a live example:

- This is enough to make anyone hit the roof, willful destruction of your family home is intollerable
- Whatever you did before, didn't work. It either got the reaction/attention your son was looking for (attention is not necessarily defined as good or bad (not dissimilar to a pwBPD), or he didn't feel the negative consequences of his actions.
- What were the physical sensations you felt when you were getting angry, and knew you were too angry?
- What personal rules can you put in place to stop you doing what you know you are capable of (holding your son too tight)?
- what can you do differently?

Enabler

Hi Enabler, physical reactions include feeling of acid reflux in chest and throat, shaking hands, and most notably pressure in head. I think any one of these is a good enough cue to leave the room and the mess for now and not try to parent in that moment. Let's make that rule number 1 and what I can do differently starting TODAY.

Another thing I have to admit here is that I feel like I've put being a good, intentional parent on the backburner for a day where I feel like I'm not loosing my mind because of my wife's situation. I've intentionally put myself into a 24/7 panic mode and I've to some degree excused myself from being a decent parent as long as they are bathed, fed, and safe. Self compassion is important, but I may have edged into the realm of throwing a non-stop pity party for myself. I have awesome kids, I'm starting an exciting new job next month, the accapella class I joined will start soon, my family knows about my situation and supports me, my wife has made overtures towards trying DBT, and stress-related ailments aside, I'm in great physical condition for someone closer to 40 than 30. If I can't have a happy marriage right now, I can to some degree have a happy parenting life. I'm over the moon about D2 and how adorably sweet she is when not throwing a tantrum, and S5 has the makings of an artist or an architect.      

It's time to remember positivity isn't dead because my wife has BPD. I'm not dead either. 

~ROE

Let me add that like Enabler wrote about, a lot of my way of interacting with the kids is influenced by my wife's presence. It doesn't look good for me to leave the room because I'm losing my temper, because after all I just take care of them a few hours a day / weekends and my job is to drink martinis and surf YouTube all day, so what have I got to be stressed / angry about? You can't tell someone you're stressed because you never know when the next explosion is coming and that the explosions often necessitate going to the police department or buying new clothes. I feel pressured to maintain an image of emotional health.

But when it comes down to it, what is better parenting: trying to resolve the issue and losing my temper, or walking away so I get myself calm and don't scare the kids?   

Morning ROE,

Sounds spot on with regards to the physical signs. Regarding the pressure in your head, am I right in saying that you get a pressure behind your eyes which makes them feel blured and sometimes you get a feeling in your ears which feels a little bit like they're going to pop and slight zinging sound. This is what I have defined as anxiety... .I've never been told professionally but clearly it's a sign of serious stress as the 2 are very correlated. When stress got very very bad last year due to divorce threats and general life trauma, I would sit at work and feel my buttocks zing or vibrate... .much like a phone going off... .in fact I was checking my pockets thinking my phone was going off. Googled it and it turns out it's cortisone, the fight or flight hormone. fine if you're chasing an animal in the savana, not so great when you're sitting at a desk in London not running anywhere with primed buttocks and upper legs. So... .that's anxiety. 

Re the kids. It would be good to find a happy medium of zoning out and observing yourself, saying to yourself "this is not my anxiety, I have no reason to be afraid and no reason to be angry", sit with the feelings for a bit and assess the situation... .say nothing and potentially if safety allows... .DO NOTHING BUT OBSERVE YOURSELF AND OTHERS. Rather than try and correct the chaos by pushing against it, which is stressful and likely to result in you becoming more stressed and part of the problem, use the power of the chaos against itself.

e.g. Child won't get ready for bed. Say clearly to them whilst sitting on the floor (non-threatening stance and at their level), "I expect you to get ready for bed now, that is a reasonable request, I am not going to scream and shout at you as I don't want to do that anymore. I am here to help you if you need it". No threats, no drama, just sit there and allow them to cause chaos if they want. Keep doing this, it will take some time but just stay. They will learn you don't play the games, you don't give them any attention. When they eventually get ready, which they will... .give them all the cuddles and be super super playful. Reward co-operation.

Another one, when you are discussing a kids bad behaviour, sit them on the stairs, you sit at the bottom. Put them in the power position. Discipline isn't about power, it isn't about control, it's about correcting and making a child accountable for their behaviour which is outside normal acceptable standards for your house. Don't make it about being threatening, you are an adult, you're bigger than them, it shouldn't be about that.

Leaving the room should be the last option, but it is an option and far far better than losing it in front of the kids or your W... .because ultimately all the above parties will only remember YOUR behaviour, rather than their own.

ROE,

I learned in a parenting class that root causes of a child's misbehavior can be seeking power, seeking attention, seeking revenge, or demonstrating inadequacy.  If you think it's power, you try to head things off at the pass by giving healthy choices, and they have control by picking between the choices.  If you think it's attention, you make sure you're giving them enough attention (goes back to the neutral to positive observation thing from the Glasser book, "Transforming the Difficult Child."  Can you proactively get your son involved in an activity prior to D2's bath time?  Do you think S6 wishes you were giving him attention rather than D2?

B.t.w., D2 is going to get even cuter.  3 and 4 are terrific ages.

WW

Hi Enabler, no to the eye pressure, but big yes to the vibrating feeling, though in my thigh.

I did mostly better with the kids this weekend using everyone's advice. Not perfect, but better than usual. Left the room, used Wisemind, and asked myself the question of what was more important in the moment, implementing discipline (in a bad and hurtful way) or getting through the incident without scaring anybody.

But then it all poured out on my wife Sunday night before bed (unrelated, I have noticed that most major dysregulation episodes happen Sunday evening around dinner or Sunday nights). The upstairs neighbors were making a racket again, which often prompts an argument about why I don't do anything about it. I snapped at her. Explained how stressed out I got when she was angry because I have no idea what she'll do. And how her problems with the neighbor stress me out because half the time she wants me to go up and say something and half the time says don't bother they won't change. Anyway I lost it. At one point said my anger was overflowing and pulled at my hair. She got up and left the room and slammed the door. In that moment I felt all the anger I had stored up inside and all the things I wanted to say. I went back into the bedroom where she was lying with S5 and said I wanted her to come out so I could talk to her,  said there are things I wanted to say and I needed her to listen and I didn't want to say them around S5. She didn't come out.

I know I did everything you shouldn't do to someone with BPD. I went outside by myself. I was in tears. I was losing it. I felt every word I wanted to say to her. How she hurt me. I loved her but she hurt me. Said terrible things to me. Hurt my relationships with my family. Stole my things, destroyed my things. Made me come close to losing my job when I'm trying to support a family of 4! That one hurts the most.  

Add that it's so painfully humid in this country. I was exhausted from a day of carrying the kids around outside in this heat and probably semi-heat stroked. I wanted to sleep but D2 kept getting up over and over again after her diaper leaked in the bed. Again and again wanting me to read her a story. Until close to 2 am. Got up early for work.

I'm getting worked up just writing this. I was supposed to see my T for the first time in person last week and hopefully work to get some of this anger out but my wife accidentally locked herself out with the kids before my appointment and I had to run home with the keys and cancel. It's rescheduled for tomorrow. I'm angry at her for forgetting the keys and taking away my chance to help myself. I've been journaling my anger like some of your suggested but I wish I could do so in the moment. I just want to be heard. Telling someone the things they did to hurt you when they are absolutely unwilling to listen and will just interrupt or use sarcasm instead of listen to you only makes it worse.

Sorry for the rant but I needed to get some of this out.

~ROE

Hey buddy, sounds tough. What would you have said to your wife in a short concise way, a way that given your knowledge of BPD she would grasp and be compelled to self reflect on the pain she has caused you?

Also, when you talk about about trying with your son and not disciplining him, it sounds like you think it’s atill right to want to bring him into line? Now I’m not saying you’re wrong and he shouldn’t be disciplined, but have you considered there’s another way? Or more to the point, have you considered the world in his perspective and actually, he doesn’t want your blueprint for him and he wants to do something else... .and he kinda has every right to feel like that.  How can you marry what he wants, or doesn’t want with what you want and how to encourage him to want what you want rather than tell him?

Enabler, I would tell her I love her and I know she doesn't want to do the things she does sometimes. But I need her to know that they have hurt me deeply and I can't just make the pain go away even though I wish I could. I know I am not a perfect husband, and I am not innocent. But I have done my best and I did not deserve those things. I thought it was all my fault then so I didn't do anything about it, and now I have this anger. That part is on me and I am doing something about it. I hope for her side she can make the effort to do something about her side of things.

Funny how much the way we word things shows how we are really thinking: "disciplining". What I should really be sayings is "responding". When S5 smacks D2 for accidentally knocking over his blocks, that's a situation you have to "respond" to, whether it's giving him a time out or talking to him to understand why he's angry. But I tend to go for option A. All your advice is right on the money.

I lost my temper at my son outside the other week because no matter how many times I told him to stop running away from us down the street he kept doing it and laughing. It made me feel useless, weak, and like a joke. My wife saw how I was loosing it and was actually very compassionate about the whole thing, saying he's just being a kid and does that to her too and that he's not trying to make me feel like a joke.  

But here's the flipside narrative when she's in dysregulating mode: the kids acting out is all my fault because they don't respect me like they respect her.  They don't do these things when it's her taking care of them. I can't control them. I don't do anything.

So a big part of the reason I get the way I do when he acts out is I hear her voice in my head saying all this stuff about how useless I am. Again, my responsibility to deal with these thoughts and emotions, not hers, but it sure heaps on the anger and pressure when I think of how she talks to me sometimes to get me in this headspace.

Last night she was in silent treatment mode from the previous night's argument. Disappeared into the bedroom shortly after I got home, leaving me with two hot and exhausted kiddies to feed, bathe, play with, and get to sleep. I did pretty OK. It was total chaos and non stop screaming, but I didn't lose it because I didn't pressure myself by trying to do everything perfectly or to show her how I'm super Dad and can control the chaos.  

~ROE

Roland,

I totally understand the feeling of having your wife's voice inside your head ridiculing you, and of feeling powerless and inadequate and being triggered by the challenges of parenting under those conditions.  Been there.  Your wife is able to support you intermittently, which in a way may be worse than not supporting you at all.  You are going to need to let go of counting on your wife to back you up.  You shouldn't have to do this, but it's an unfortunate fact of your situation.  That's a good topic to work with your therapist on.  Accept her support when it is offered, but build resilience and skills in yourself to never count on it.  This will make it easier to avoid your compulsion to try pulling support out of her sometimes.

Turning things around, it's important for you to look at the things that are going right.  Build your confidence.  Look for "islands of competence" and expand them.  That interaction with D2 might be a great place to start.  I remember sitting cross-legged in D13's room when she was 2, reading to her every night.  It was my calm port in a storm.  That was just 20 minutes a day, but I drew strength and sustenance from that interaction.  I felt like a good, loving, strong dad.

Have you had a chance to read that "Transforming the Difficult Child" book yet?  I think that might help with your son, and it will boost your confidence.

You are making a lot of progress.  Continue to work on building your parenting tools and your confidence.

WW

WW, I love your idea of "islands of competence." There's a beautiful such moment every night right after D2 goes to sleep. We turn off most of the lights in the apartment, my wife and I go to shower, and my son goes into the playroom and plays with his cars and trains. There is no noise in the house, just S5 making car sounds while he pushes his toys around. You can tell this for him is the child equivalent of sitting down on the couch and watching some Netflix at the end of a long day. He is pure contentment and is fine to be alone. When I have time, I sit down next to him and play with him. This is where I feel most like a dad every day.

Thank you to you and Enabler for the parenting advice instead of just focusing on the psychological issues. I need to be reminded that among all this I can still be a good dad.

~ROE 

Roland,

I appreciated your description of that end of day tradition!  Focus on those calm moments, burn them into your memory, draw strength from them, and try to expand from there.  Keep us posted!

WW

 ROE,
 Very interesting tread you started here & SO MANY great ideas & responses . Anger & Codependent Rage has been a Common topic of our marriage C for several yrs now (uBPDw & myself). I just thought I might throw in my 2cents since no one else mentioned it. The  Anger Iceberg-           (https://binged.it/2rvOu3h.) If this doesn't take you to it ,just Google  Anger Iceberg.
 Still hard for me to realize how many hidden emotions (below the surface) can actually come to the surface as Anger & Rage. Feelings like loneliness, trapped, helplessness can come out as Anger. 
  Thanks for starting this ,very insightful stuff
  NGY

I agree NGY, this is a very good thread. The impacts of living in a chaotic environment are far reaching... .add the chaos of children and it can distill all the emotional intensity we're experiencing in the relationship and open cracks up into gaping great wounds.

ROE, I too agree with WW on his 'islands of competence'. It's good to focus on what is working, and then you can see how you can adapt that to areas where things aren't going so well. Children change, what's working now might not work specifically in the future BUT, what is good to develop is an ability to be adaptive... .very might like your W, having a range of tools and thought processes allowing you to select the correct tool for the correct situation. Reading your point about your son running off and your wife's response I remembered a realisation I had some months back... .I thought as a parent I knew what was best for my kids, I thought they understood, or should understand that when I asked them not to run away they should/would understand that I was acting in their best interests, but your son has his own mind and in his world thinks he's totally fine. When it comes down to it, it's about control... .you want to control him as it reduces your anxiety about him getting hurt, and he wants to be in control of himself and do what he wants to do. Again, you have to make him want what you want, or accept that he wants something different. S5 is exploring and venturing further and further... .that's a good thing for him. He's not thinking about you at all and it's very unlikely to be a defiance directed at you. What happens if you don't call him back? My guess is he gets to a point and stops. Have you tried hiding from him?

On a personal level, most fathers rarely evaluate their own parenting behavior. You are. Whether or not you are/were a good Dad (I suspect you are a good Dad, or certainly better than average), you are on the road to being an awesome Dad.

Ever thought of playing cars with your son when he's in his room on his own? There's nothing better than getting on their level and giving them 1 on 1 time... .something he may appreciate especially given he has to share you with D2 in the daytime.

Keep up the strong and powerful work

Thank you NGY, I had a look at the infographic and the article that goes with it and this was a big insight for me. I believe that the primary emotions running beneath my anger towards my wife are hurt, humiliation, feeling misunderstood and unappreciated, and unfairness. With my son it's different - I think it's more anger towards myself for feeling like a failure, anger / frustration towards my wife for creating an unstable home environment, and also some much more deep seated feelings of feeling helpless and humiliated as a child. I would be very interested to hear more about your codependent anger and how you have coped with it.

Enabler I think the more we understand, the more space we create to take control in the moment. Thank you for reminding me of what I'm doing right.

I'm also beginning to appreciate the regenerative power of a few moments of mindfulness per day.

Interesting development, uBPDw's latest episode came to very quick halt yesterday after I apologized for something within my range of tolerance for apologizing, to which she just answered "Apology accepted". That is a rare one. Later that night we had a rather deep conversation about our relationship spurred by my description of an abusive former client who I said "must have a personality disorder". Maybe subconsciously I said it on purpose because my wife said I had more or less described her. This morning she messaged saying that it deeply hurt her to hear me describe my client that way because I didn't hold back the way I would if describing her. But she said she didn't blame me and she knew she was a "pain in the ***".

She has certainly shown a little growth recently and I think yesterday's conversation sets a good tone for tomorrow's evaluation with the doctor in charge of the DBT program. I honestly don't know about the future of our relationship as a married couple, but the work we do now could certainly better facilitate a smoother separation / coparenting situation later if that's where we go. This is a better place to be than on the knife's edge of getting a restraining order and trying to take the kids away like I was a few months earlier. Thank you to WW for offering me a different possibility at that time.

~ROE

I'm also finding the more I understand the less compunction I have to take control, and more compunction I have to allow the natural consequences of someones chaotic to be felt by the cause of the chaos. The more I understand the more mental space I can generate to control my own emotional response and therefore my own physical and verbal response to a situation. This is a self feeding process in a similar way to the negative spiral of being reactive. The more space you generate in situation A, the quicker your recovery, greater your confidence and superior your clarity in the aftermath, which means you have even more mental dexterity for situation B... .C... .D... .E.

In much the same way that pwBPD have a tenancy to enter negative emotional cycles due to maladapted coping mechanisms which temporarily relieve the mental pain, but further guilt and shame in the aftermath of a mental stimulus (requiring further emotional numbing and further maladapted coping mechanisms... .), we can can enter the same negative cycles by carrying the guilt and shame from our reaction to a previous incident into the next incident. The cycle can be broken and a positive climbing out the proverbial hole can be achieved. One must obviously avoid confirmation bias, but in each situation you learn, you learn a better response and greater clarity as to the language of BPD. The behaviors fit together and you gain greater understanding of their triggers. Is it any different for children? No, I don't think so at all. Teaching a child there might be a better way, a safer way, a more successful and enjoyable way is far more preferable than just saying their way is wrong. A subtle guiding hand where children and adults learn by their mistakes. 

This is a wonderful insight, Enabler. I can see how much effort and intention you have put into being a father. Your children are lucky.

I was home from work the last 4 days so my wife could go for job interviews. Long stretch for me. On the whole I managed myself better by creating space for wisemind. But even when I manage not to let it take control, the emotional mess is still there inside me. I'm beginning to think of it as a kind of PTSD. It can't be controlled every time. My longterm T who can most likely help me with this will be back in country in June. I think she might be the only one here who can help me with this part.

A more pleasant update, my wife and I saw the psychiatrist connected to the DBT program last Friday. Since we had the kids with us we each saw here individually instead of together, which I think was for the best. I went in first and focused entirely on my issues in the relationship and personally, namely codependency and boundaries. I mentioned the counselor I had seen at the hospital had told me about the DBT program and thought that it might be a good option for my wife (I discussed nothing about my wife's behaviors or BPD in the meeting) and I asked if might be good for me, too. The doctor shot down DBT for me right away. And she said even if my wife had something like BPD, DBT would be a huge time commitment for someone with two kids. She gave me some anxiety meds and suggested a course of CBT for me.

Then my wife's turn. She was clearly in there a lot longer than me. I don't know what she told the doctor and didn't ask. When she came out she said the doctor told her her mood shifts were far too dramatic and she needed a blood test and a brain scan. I caught a look at my wife's diagnosis form and it said major depressive disorder and alcohol abuse, along with several prescribed treatments including medication and behavior adjustment training. My wife did the blood tests and is arranging the brain scan.

What this means for me is that my wife was honest in there about what's going on with her. I could have gone in there and told the doctor about her problems, but I decided to put some trust in her. If she didn't talk about it, it meant she wasn't ready to face it. Maybe she's still not completely ready. But she kept the appointment and was honest, and for that I'm quite proud of her.

Later she talked to me about the difference between our family counselor and the psychiatrist. She said when she saw the counselor she brought up BPD and the counselor smiled and said that terms like those were very broad and could scare someone and that everyone is different. The psychiatrist, meanwhile, threw a lot of terms and medication at her. We agreed that each side has its benefits and drawbacks. And I agree that we don't always need specific terms or labels to get people help. I hope the counselor's sensitivity and the psychiatrist's diagnosis can help find a solution that fits my wife, not just the criteria.  

I believe the reason she finally went is because I went with her as an equal party who wanted to resolve the problems in our relationship, and though I might not have been sincere about this part when I first convinced her I was by the time we went. I have problems, too, problems that are my responsibility. The ultimatums and threats didn't work. Love did.

I don't know where it goes from here. But at least now I know I have done everything I can. The ball is in her court now.  

~ROE  

Roland, it's wonderful to hear of your progress!  There's a lot of work ahead, but just getting to help is a huge step.  You moved mountains to get this far.  I'm impressed!

WW

ROE,

Great news and really really pleased for you... .in fact rather envious.

I can't say I have any experience as far as your journey forward with your wife's potential treatment, however I can only imagine that your wife allowing even a crack in the veneer, enough for a therapist to start working on getting to the core issues and behavioral problems has to be positive. There's one thing to be honest but honest with regards to self is an even bigger step and surely has to be a step towards recovery.

Well done both of you.

Thank you WW. Again, it was you who outlined this possibility for me and for that I'm deeply grateful.

Thanks, Enabler, I really hope it sticks and goes some where. For the first time I can dimly see the possibility of a better outcome than separation.

Sharing with you that I had a mostly better night with my son last night. There was a little more strength left in my heart to give him positive attention. Don't know whether it's connected to this positive income. Maybe I can still be the dad I see in my head. 

~ROE

Great to hear it ROE. Take some time to compartmentalize your individual relationships and keep the emotion associated with each compartment in that compartment. It's very very tough to do but you can now feel yourself, question yourself and real-time self assess how you are interacting with each person in your life. Briefly ask yourself "am I behaving in the right way with this person given what I have experienced with them in the recent past?". I've done a fair amount of reading about how kids heads get messed up. One of the common themes seems to be that primary care givers behavior differs from the assignable events... .'my Dad is shouting at me but I cannot assign it to anything I have actually done... .I am genetically programmed to want to be near my Dad and seek protection from my Dad, but I am afraid of him (I hate you don't leave me)... .since I cannot assign a good reason why my Dad is shouting at me, I must be at fault and be a holistically bad person'. That's a very crude summary of my understanding of just one aspect of how kids get messed up. I have probably shared before but will share again as I think it's a good example:

Enabler - FIL, why do you tolerate MIL talking to you in such a horrible way?
FIL - Hmmm I know she doesn't mean it

Over years FIL had learnt that MIL didn't mean the horrible things she said to him, however what he didn't realise was that my W when she was a little girl, didn't know MIL didn't mean the horrible things she said to her when she was stressed and dysregulating... .so W grew up hating herself, cutting herself and developed BPD.

So, I cannot stress how important it is to try as much as possible to ensure your kids see a true reflection of their behavior in your response, not externalities they cannot see nor understand. Kids are naughty, getting cross and angry with naughty kids is okay... .they can associate their bad behavior with your dissatisfaction and choose to correct their behavior. Make yourself accountable to your kids, say sorry when you know you got too cross.

You'll get there, it takes time but it builds momentum and becomes a reflex response.

Hi everyone, I did something last night that I think was the right thing but at the same time feels like the wrong thing.

For context, my wife has been very stressed recently going out for multiple job interviews / tests and being rejected. She's working super hard at this and still committing to seeing the doctor and I have been taking off lots of time recently to watch the kids so she can do both.

More context, recently I had two screw ups. I was helping my D2 climb a ladder at a playcenter recently and she lost her grip and fell. I was right next to her and watching her but I still failed to catch her in time. The floor is soft and she was fine, but it was still a big fall. Then this past weekend I took them swimming by myself and while I took a second to grab our toy raft my son stepped off the steps into deep water and was under for 1 second. I got to him right away but still feels like it shouldn't have happened. I attribute this to mindfulness problems which I will discuss more in a future post. I'm working on this.  

Last night after getting home from work I was playing with S5 and D2 (who are already naughty and go even more nuts when I get home). They ran off for a minute and I stayed where I was because I was tired and didn't want to get up right away, instead calling them to come back. By the time I got to where they were I found they had cut the wires on some light decorations my wife had bought a few years ago. Well my wife lost it on all three of us (why hadn't I been watching them?) and yelled at us all to go into the playroom. She called my son in a moment later I heard him crying loudly. I know his cries and I knew she had said something, which in this case turned out to be she was going to send him to the nanny's house.

Long story short, I got involved. I held him and said we would never ever ever send him away. I said to her that it was totally fine to send them to the nanny if she needed a break, but she couldn't connect it with bad behavior. I said she was essentially telling him his place in the home was conditional and that we could never do this to him. She does this, threatens to send him to school (which he will go to anyway later this year) or threatens that she will move away to the USA by herself. Things escalated and she started talking to him in that dysregulated way she talks to me, asking questions that are impossible to answer, especially for a 5 year old. I told her she was emotionally torturing him the same way she did to me, and I wouldn't let her do it to either of us ever again. I said I would get involved every time she did it.

She wouldn't stop with this talk towards him so I took both of them into the bathroom. S5 kept saying "mama is bad mama is bad!" She heard this and came in and started in with him again, saying then she would go to America. I told her to stop and tried to close the door but she pushed against it. I pushed back. Not a good thing for a kid to see. I shouldn't have done that.

It finally ended with her retreating to the bedroom with her Macbook. I took care of them the rest of the night and put them to sleep.

I want to say I don't think I really got too angry or lost my temper at any point. I just felt like I had to stand up for him, though I was also standing up for myself. The emotional torture is the thing I can't stand the most and that's caused me the most pain, that feeling of being talked into a corner with no where to go and being made to feel ashamed. I would take the hitting or the stuff stealing over that any day of the week. The thing is, I'm far from a perfect parent too and have been screwing the pooch a lot myself recently, which is why I feel guilty for getting so involved. During the argument I admitted the stuff I've been doing wrong, but I hate turning her into the monster even though I know she's doing it herself. And it wasn't cool for me to push on the door. Don't know if I should reach out first and apologize or not.

~ROE  

Morning ROE,

I've butchered the above quote but hopefully I've not reduced it's context.

Let me start by saying DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE... .you are way way way too hard on yourself. Read what you wrote... ."I was right next to her and watching her but I still failed to catch her in time", you weren't in the bar, you weren't on your phone, you weren't talking to your mates... .YOU WERE THERE, right NEXT TO HER, WATCHING her. Your son and the swimming pool... .again, you turned your back to get a toy raft, you weren't chatting up a lifeguard, you weren't reading the paper, you WERE DOING YOUR BEST AND BEING THE BEST FATHER YOU COULD... .hell, you were taking your kids swimming which is a lot more than most. People make errors, people don't have perfect foresight, all we can do is make decisions based on the information before us. The same mantra goes for the wire cutting incident. Should the kids have cut the wires? No, of course not. If you'd have known they might cut the wires would you have got up and stopped them? Yes, of course you would have!

Okay, now to your wife.

What emotion do you think was being expressed when she was ripping into your son and you?
How do you think you could have handled this differently? (I personally don't know, there are obviously different way you could have handled this but would they have led to better outcomes?)

Can you see how the Karpman Triangle worked in the aftermath of the wire cutting incident... .maybe take it from all perspectives, yours, your W and your S. How did you enter, what moves around the triangle did you make, how did you exit. I would imagine you all have different perspectives as to your own moves.


Here's my example from Saturday:

D8's birthday, bunch of kids in the garden playing in paddling pool and slip and slide. D9 very upset due to disagreement with her friend. I'm preparing party tea of pizza etc.

Enabler W - W announces that she's sick of the kids being upset, ruining the party and she's never going to do a party at home again because both of them had been intolerable all day and she was sick of it. (Victim in her head, Perpetrator in my mind as she was attacking the kids rather than having compassion)
Enabler - goes to playroom to talk to D9 (Rescuing W/Coaching D9)
Enabler - Asks D9 what was going on and if she wants to talk about why she is upset, explaining that I felt sad that she was upset and wanted to help her work through some of her feelings (Coach)
D9 - Very upset that her friend (Perpetrator) seemed cross with her for no reason what so ever (Victim).
Enabler - Asked D9 if she knew of any reason why the friend might be cross with her, suggesting if she could think of no reason then maybe it's nothing to do with her. Suggested that D9 couldn't control the feelings of her friend and although it was upsetting D9 should have confidence it's nothing she'd done and continue to play in a fair way (Still Coach)
D9 - Understood what could be going on and seemed to perk up and be willing to go out and participate again.
Enabler - Suggested that D9 go and give Enabler W a cuddle on her way out (Coaching D9/Rescuing W (from her own anger))
Enabler W - couldn't contain her desire to tell D9 how disgusted she was with the behavior so rather than accepting the cuddle and moving on she ranted at her (She still feels like she's a Victim when actually she is now the Perpetrator)
Enabler - I shout back as leaving the room ":)uuuuuuuude, just give her a hug man!" (Trying to Rescue my D9, in my W eye I was a Perpetrator)
Enabler W - ":)on't Duuuuuuuuude me!" (feels Victim)

D9 - Arrives Victim leaves feeling neutral and empowered
Enabler W - Arrives Victim - Leaves Victim but in everyone else's eyes has been an unnecessary Perpetrator
Enabler - Arrives Neutral, tries to stay Coach but due to my lack of control at the end I leave as Perpetrator.   

Hi Enabler, I think I was intentionally setting myself up for a defogging. Thanks for that.

My wife has a talent for pooling together mistakes past and present to attack me all while carefully omitting her own and getting me to believe it. She was explaining today how these things never happen to her with them. Like she never let our daughter go down the slide by herself when she was too small. Or passed out drunk while watching them. I'm starting to take this for the BPD spin it is and don't let it get to me too much. 

That said, my mindfulness is definitely in the toilet. It was before and since I discovered my wife's BPD I've been doing every thing I can to be as not mindful as possible (constantly on smartphone, fantasizing, etc). 

I'm sorry your daughter didn't enjoy the party the way she should. Your story called up a memory to my mind. On our last visit to the US (after over 2 years from previous visit), my best friend flew across the country with his wife and stepson to come see me for one day and night, my last chance to see him for at least another two years. My wife got into a huff about his wife putting her feet up on the couch and argued with me about it in Chinese, but still well within earshot of them, which put my friend's wife into a huff for the rest of the trip and mostly spoiled the tone. My one chance to see my friend, my one time to be home, and she couldn't just let this one thing go for me. And it wasn't even my friend doing it, it was his wife! Whereas I'm nothing but polite and warm when her sister comes to visit for Chinese New Years with her degenerate husband who fills our bathroom with cigarette smoke. Sigh. 

~ROE   

Update just for the sake of getting it off my heart.

First, for context, let me mention the weather here has become tropical. I don't remember it ever being this hot and humid. Not a good environment for emotions.

The night of the above conflict. I didn't want to go into the bedroom so I slept on the couch. Hot and uncomfortable. Horrible sleep. My sleep has been terrible for years. I was like a zombie the whole day. It was physically unbearable. I felt even worse by the time I got home. Not long after the kids got into a fight. They fight all the time and it can get vicious. We both tried to settle it. S5 cried and begged me to hold him. D2 cried and begged me to hold her at the same time and S5 kept holding my arms so I couldn't pick her up. I had no idea who to comfort. It's a miracle I didn't lose it.

When my wife is dysregulating she says the kids don't respect me and that's why they don't listen to me and only to her. (Of course none of it is her fault). I had tried to explain to her about my sleep problems and how they were influencing my performance as a parent. She started an argument about how I was using my sleep problems to escape responsibility for my own behavior.  I explained my failures were absolutely my responsibility and that's why I made an appointment to see a doctor about my sleep problems. I told her I was sleep deprived and that if we kept on arguing this way I might lose my temper and didn't want to do that. I begged her to let us pick up the conversation tomorrow. She wouldn't stop. I reminded her our marriage counselor had suggested we do this and she had agreed to it then. But she said both people had to agree to stopping the argument. Said I had no right to be tired since I didn't take care of two kids all day. I insisted I would talk about it tomorrow. She disappeared into the bedroom.

I got the kids ready for bed as best I could and finally put D2 to sleep. S5 refused to shower. So I showered myself first. I cried in the shower because it's the only safe space I have to do this. Afterwards S5 refused again. So I gave him a few more minutes to play and did the dishes. He went into bedroom and ran away from me when I tried to take him to the shower. I was exhausted and finally lost it and grabbed him hard and carried him to the shower. He cried and ran back to the bedroom. My wife looked at me and said I looked like a crazy person and said how dare I criticize her parenting when I would do something like this, showing me the marks my fingers had made on his arms (they faded in 30 seconds).

S5 calmed down and took a shower. I got him into bed (he sleeps with us) and he said he wanted to watch a video before sleep. I agreed to a 3 minute video. My wife came in and gave him a big piece of rock candy. When I asked why she was doing that, she said "Oh so its ok for you to let him watch videos before bed?" She then proceeded to chat with him for five minutes, then ten minutes, then fifteen. I think she might have been doing it on purpose to keep me from getting to sleep. By the time I'd started moving into deep sleep D2 woke up crying for milk around 12:30 pm. I'm the one who takes care of her at night since my wife is a light sleeper and has trouble getting back to sleep. Problem is I don't sleep like I used to.

Even if my wife moves forward with treatment, sometimes I really don't know how much longer I can take life as it is... .

Thanks for listening, everyone.

~ROE

That sounds stressful beyond belief, and I always bristled at implications that I was going to hurt the kids (in my case by not following her ridiculous superstitious cultural quirks, and every time the kids cried,  "WHAT DID YOU DO?" 

I used to get up to take care of D1 because her mom needed more sleep than me.  And I he to resent getting up at 6am on weekends to entertain and feed the kids,  do laundry. Com breakfast. I sincerely hope that you get help with the sleep issues.  Right now it sounds like you are unable to take care of yourself. 

Can you let some things go? Like letting your son go without a shower for a day, even in your climate?

ROE, it feels to me that you are attempting to control a tornado.

Children find the cracks in any relationship and work them. It's not so much intentional, more instinctive that they find what works and they follow the path of least resistance. Subconsciously my guess is that he's starting to realise that when mummy and daddy are in the house together they can be played off against one another. You're a bit hamstrung and your wife is ready to cut you off at the knees if you even think about using physical coercion to force your kids to do what they need to do. I have experienced this myself especially over the last 2 years during the demise of my marital relationship. I have found that the priority is to avoid playing the game, stop feeding his desire to create the drama and instead defer to your wife for guidance if passive (sitting down non-threatening stance) does not work. Getting your wife's advice does a couple of things, it show humility, but more importantly it pulls her into buying into a solution. She is far less likely to cut you off at the knees if she is forced to have personal investment into the conflict resolution... .appeal to her to rescue you, you be the victim... .this will confuse her.

Google trauma reinactment as well. There's some useful information especially if your W has any history of abuse at the hands of her parents.  

Roland, I agree with Enabler that you're being much to hard on yourself with some of this.  My kids have had falls right in front of me, and I've pulled at least one child back up to the surface when she went under while swimming.

You say that D5 and D2 have vicious fights.  I believe you need to get a handle on that.  It's a big age difference.  :)2 is naturally triggering to S5's vulnerabilities.  I don't know your kids at all, but am just saying this knowing the maturity of a 2 year old and 5 year old.  In a sense, they both need to be protected from each other.  Situations where they coexist peacefully may be the exception rather than the rule, especially at first.  It is unreasonable to expect D2 to not trigger S5, and it is unreasonable to expect S5 to not be triggered.  You want to help them grow towards this, but need to organize the environment to help for now.

Get your wife to help, if possible, but let's assume you're doing it alone.  It's a tough task.  :)2 is too young to be on her own for long.  If they are close, you need to be there with a very engaging activity.  Basically singing or dancing, you reading to them, etc.  You can only do so much of that.  Reading to them is a nice one since you can actually do it for a longer time without exhausting yourself.  Try reading to them every night.  Work with S5 to develop things he can do on his own while you work with D2.  Are their bedtimes staggered?  You can make the time between D2's bedtime and S5's bedtime his special time.  Remember that much misbehavior is begging for attention.  Another very powerful thing is a regular evening routine, with consistent times for each activity.  :)on't be rigid or get frustrated.  Reward success.  Move towards a regular routine over time, patiently moving back towards center when it is disrupted.

On the shower, what happened to you has happened to me many times.  When I get in a mindset that something must happen, and I don't have options, I can get frustrated and lose my cool.  What's the consequence of him not bathing for a night?  If he hasn't acted out too much, and you're catching trouble early, pretend you are in control.  :)eclare that it is "International Stinky Boy Night" and he must not shower today.  Sell it, so he thinks it's your idea that he not shower, and then move on to something like reading to him.  When he does take a shower next, praise him.  If he's acting out a lot, you're better off just giving him no attention for it, no negative attention, just flat affect and move on to the next activity.  Try to wait long enough that it doesn't seem like a reward, and give him some attention -- especially if you can catch him doing something good, even a manufactured success, like being calm for, say, 10 seconds    I'll refer you back to Glasser's Transforming the Difficult Child.

WW

Excellent point and well highlighted.

If you had to describe what you refer to as anger more precisely, would you use the word frustrated? Frustration comes from the feeling of helplessness and helplessness is the sense of having no options... .at times of frustration, focus energy on thinking of other options and avoid tunnel vision.

WW, Enabler, Turkish, thank you for the incredible parenting advice from three amazing parents. Sorry for my slow reply but I have been homebound the last few days so my wife can go for job interviews.

It's been an eventful last few days. My wife saw the psychiatrist for her followup appointment Friday. She didn't tell me much but said she told the doctor "I yelled at my husband because the kids cut the wires while he was watching them and I can't even get 5 minutes to myself" and that the doctor agreed I was out of line on that. Sigh. She also said the doctor told her our views on parenting were far out of line with each other. But more importantly my wife told me a social worker would be in touch with us within ten days to arrange an interview. I'm guessing social workers are not arranged for general marriage problems? I have no idea where this one is going.

I had a Facetime call with my brother and Dad this weekend. At first my wife was positive about the fact that my brother wanted to get back in touch with me (we have been secretly back in touch for almost two months after I told them what was happening). She didn't want to join the call but wanted me to tell my brother and sister in law she says hi but she was out with friends. She told me she doesn't want them to think she is avoiding them. Which means she is not angry at them any more. After the call she wanted a full report (as she does after all family calls), and she got triggered, as she does after any call with brother or father. I see now they are probably her easiest trigger. Rudeness and sarcasm and interrogation.

Fast forward to Sunday morning on which she had a job-related appointment. More interrogation. After leaving she popped her head back in to say "Oh by the way, cut down on the sugar because you're getting fat." (I had previously put on a tiny amount of weight and was upset about it but it has already come off.)

After that I instantly went into deep depression. I'm beginning to think depression for me is spiritual exhaustion or anger / frustration with no where to go. But the worst part was I had an insanely difficult task in front me. Taking care of the kids while depressed is torture enough. With my wife out, it was up to me to go by myself that morning to the public kindergarten we want to send our kids to this year to register in the lottery for a spot. If we don't get a spot they have to go to private kindergarten which is worse quality but ten times more expensive. It's a long walk there are it's currently around 40 C here, insanely hot both temperate and humidity wise and full sun. I had to carry daughter in the baby carrier and push my son in the stroller with the shade. I thought I was going to collapse. If I had known how hot it would be I would have taken a taxi. My wife also proceeded to turn a morning business into a full day vacation. Too much!

She got home around 4:30 with silent treatment for me and expensive gifts for the kids. Boy did they love mama. I took the kids out to buy everyone takeout for dinner. I still got her some. I will not be like her and use withholding basic necessities as a revenge tactic. I will not let me kids see me do something like that.

 Later as I still took care of everything that night, after I finally managed to brush D2's teeth, an almost impossible task, she walks over and hands her a piece of candy, then walks off while whistling cheerfully. All I could do was say to her, "WHY?" Then go to the bathroom and try to calm myself down. I can't tolerate her using our kids as a weapon against me. I didn't know what to do. I considered going out to Starbucks and giving myself a little time, but I realized I would be trapping her with the kids, which was like doing the same thing as her.  

This morning getting ready for work I found my hair gel was missing and I was knocked out of our shared Netflix account. Will be going home early so she can go to another interview. I really don't want to help her but we seriously need her to get a job. I've promised myself I will not be petty or irresponsible for the sake of revenge. I know she's sick and is trying but I'm too burnt out on bad sleep, the jungle heat, and depression to have the mindfulness to keep that mindset.

I'm not trying to throw a pity party here or anything. Just really needed to share.      

~ROE

Hey ROE, sounds like you've had a few challenges there.

I wonder whether or not the social worker visit can be seen as an opportunity. It's going to be stressful and you will need to mentally prepare yourself to show yourself in your best light especially since your wife is likely to put her best shiny mask on for the occasion. What kind of behaviours do you want to show the social worker about yourself and the way that you interact with the kids (weaknesses and being aware of your weaknesses is no bad thing, neither is asking for help, there's no training for being a parent). What strengths do you want to show? What hindrances do you feel would be important to highlight? It is important to remember that if your wife is present, hindrances such as "My W gives the kids sweets after I have cleaned their teeth at night, then smirks sarcastically at me" maybe seen as an attack by your wife, be denied and lead to her dysregulating... .BUT, this maybe something you may want to stimulate such that the mask slips enough so the social worker can see past the good behaviour.

Why do you think that a social worker has been called? What do you think your wife has told the Dr? I suggest you open your mind to all available potentials here. 

Hi Enabler, I actually do welcome the social worker into the situation and see this as a good development. It will provide the hospital with a much fuller picture of the problem and the dangers.   

I will let the social worker know about my anger / codependency problems and how it affects the kids and the marriage. It's important they get a full picture of the dynamic, not just mom is sick and it's messing everyone else up. I've got my role in things, too. But I want to show that I have made commitments towards improving my own mental health and the overall stability of the family and that it was me who got us to the hospital.

My instincts tell me my wife possibly brought up some recent actions on her part, cutting up my clothes for example, or hitting me, since she had admitted these things to our marriage counselor over text in the past. I know for certain she brought up some of her problems with alcohol. I think this sent up red flags for the doctor that this was more than a little marital discord.

How I discuss will also depend on if the sw meets with us individually or together.

~ROE

Roland,

The social worker's number one goal is going to determine if the kids are safe. This person is not your wife's friend nor yours  I don't scare easily,  but the scariest moment I can remember since childhood was when the CPS SW sat across from me and reminded me that they had the power to take the kids if we didn't keep them safe.  

Issues of codependency are best left between you and a therapist. Even though a T is a mandatory reporter of suspected abuse, the T is there to help you and almost all of what is said is protected by confidentially.  Stick to facts. I'm not saying minimize or lie,  but be careful about oversharing. Think of the SW like a cop. Remember Miranda. 

The CPS worker ended by saying,  "we're closing the case for now,  but we can reopen it very easily at any time." Yes,  that was a threat, even though I'm the one who called and got them involved in the first place.  

Hey ROE, I don't think I explained myself very well. This is definitely not the time to use words like anger. Turkish has direct experience of this so best to take his lead on things, however I would imagine talking about frustrations and challenges and how you sometimes lack the tools to resolve situations. You are the one who is at the coal face and it's totally acceptable to have challenges and get frustrated, you seek solutions for those challenges not look to blame others. If your wife wants to talk about your anger (probable) and blame you (probable) then there's not much you can do about that, however it's likely to be visible to the social worker. Some of those challenges and frustrations might be related to your W blindsiding you with things like the post tooth brushing sweets but you may want to consider how you bring that up in a constructive manner.

I don't know for what reasons a Dr may have a mandatory reporting requirement in relation to hitting, cutting clothes and drinking, probably hitting and drinking. Do you think this is something she is likely to have opened up to the Dr about as well as the T? Is there a chance your behavior has been bought up by her? I could envisage her not wanting to be the only person dragged through the mud.

Hi Turkish and Enabler, wow, thank you! I obviously had a very incorrect view of what a social worker is sent in for.

I really don't know what might wife might say. I like to maintain the belief that deep down she's a good person and wouldn't lie to a SW about things I've done, say I've abused the kids. Which is not to say I'm innocent. With me it's extended as far as holding S5 too tight by the hands or arms, but I don't recall him ever showing pain or crying out. Maybe I'm using a lot of strength in my mind but not as much in reality. I think I have a built-in fail safe switch when it comes to violence.

I don't really know what to do about my wife's part. I think she has been better the last few months to the kids since I brought the police in. No hitting or drinking - that I am aware of. But I think there some emotional abuse in the case of my son. And she uses to kids to get at me, case in point the candy stuff.

Honestly, even if drinking and hitting is out of the picture (and I can't be sure it is forever) I really don't know how to define how healthy the current environment is for them. Some of this may be up to the SW to evaluate. I don't want the kids to lose their mother. But I may need to face some realities here. Getting nervous about this but going to let things go the way they should.

~ROE

ROE, it's good to maintain that belief and it's going to be very helpful for you maintaining a high level of empathy, love and care for your wife's inner morals. However, I would beg you to think about how your wife reacts in a) Stressful situations b) when she feels as though she is being threatened. The social workers visit is likely to trigger 2 of the pwBPD's biggest nemesis's... .Guilt and Shame. At the core of a pwBPD's issue's is an abject desire to avoid the negative painful feelings of both of these emotions. A common way to dispel these emotions is to deflect them on to other people... .i.e. YOU. I do not recommend that you take either a defensive or attacking stance, but I would suggest that you look through the delusion that you are going to see her best side in this situation. I think anyone would feel like their parenting ability, their moral code and conduct and their ability to control themselves would be called into question by a social worker... .that's their job... .and with a pwBPD these feelings will be magnified a lot.

I was discussing physical restraint with my T last night and the feelings of helplessness which lead to me perceiving physical restraint is the only option. We concluded that it really has to be the last resort especially in my current situation... .and we are both in somewhat niche situations. Physically holding a child by the wrist does not amount to child abuse and holding a child's wrists such that if they didn't pull it would be loose I believe to be acceptable. "If you choose to pull then it will be tight, if you choose not to it's as though I am not even holding your wrist"... .you know the grip. Your behavior if my assessment is correct is within the bounds of normal. Your niche situation is that you W wishes to place in the perpetrator position so will use any opportunity you give her to do this... .so it's in your interest to avoid giving her such opportunity. This is a common conundrum for parents across the globe, it doesn't amount to you being abusive unless there is something you're telling us all... .it's not ideal, but you know that already... .but then neither is a defiant child and wife that wants to take you out at the knees.

Thank you for the warning, Enabler. When we speak to the social worker all of her bad behavior is going to be held up into the light, this time by a stranger. No way to predict how she will react to that.

There's one thing I've been meaning to say here for a while but keep forgetting to get to it. My wife has been giving me the silent treatment along with a bunch of passive aggressive techniques for close to a week now. The major effects of these behavior is that they make me feel like a shamed dog in my mind, even if I know I didn't do anything wrong. But I will not be made to feel ashamed in my own home any longer, the home for which I have paid all the rent, put everything together, taken care of my children and pregnant wife in, gotten up every night for 5 years to feed two babies in, cleaned, fixed, changed 1000 diapers in and given love to my family in. I try to treat my wife like a ghost and be the way in the house I would be when she's normal or not around. It's damn hard and the silent treatment still makes my head want to explode, but she can have her own chaos party.  

~ROE

So despite all that you do,  you feel unappreciated ROE? Add to that how she acts and treats you despite it all? That's a hard place to be and to deal with.  

Hi Turkish, yeah that sums it up pretty well. I'm far from perfect and can be plenty annoying in my own ways. I'm not even asking for appreciation. Everything I did, I did willingly - it was a gift and I do not ask anything in return. I just don't want the rain of abuse an accusations of being a terrible husband / father. I know it's all not true, finally I know this, but when someone validates your feelings, buys you chocolate to make amends, cooks you a healthy dinner when you're on your way out to a job interview even after you've been abusing them all week, and you still can't stop, that's where I say it's time to get off the bus.

Do you feel any of the same? I need to be refreshed on your story a bit.

~ROE

Months of getting up at 6 on weekends,  changing the baby,  feeding her and then S3, doing laundry,  making breakfast, entertaining... .  when their mom wouldn't get up until 9am. Yes.  I did what I had to do. 

There are two very different tones in the house regarding these kinds of things when she's normal and dysregulated:

Normal: Husband is doing these things so that I can rest a bit more since I take care of the kids every day. He's a good dad and husband. I will help him where I can.  

Dysregulated: Serves him right to have to do these things alone while I relax in the bedroom since he's such a bad husband / father and I take such great care of the kids every day. I will do nothing to help him and he can't do anything about it. Hahaha!

Again, this comes back to her using the kids as a weapon. It is my privilege and honor to take care of them, but I know when she's using them to hurt me.

~ROE

I started writing a pity party list of all the things that I do around the house and for the family... .I deleted and had a big siiiiiiiiiiiigh to myself. I have certainly pulled my own weight and some in this relationship. I was reading back through old text messages last night and a couple of things struck me... .the number of times I have been lambasted for not doing small easily forgettable tasks like putting the dishwasher on. There's no big picture perspective taken... .EVER. No, well he was staying up late to do the late feed whilst I got my head down, and he does get up at 5am so maybe I'll just let that slide. The second was the lack of empathy when my misfortune with my commute interrupted her plans. Almost as though I intentionally caused an accident on the motorway or caused tubes and trains to be delayed. It was as though my employment which affords her a very comfortable life was an inconvenience for her. She lives in a fantasy world where things just happen... .blissfully unaware that people around her are scurrying around to clean up the carnage she leaves in her wake, or meeting her demands.

One cheeky statistic: She's been out 23 evenings in May vs my 5 (1 of which was a therapy session for an hour, 2 of which were 5 a-side football lasting an hour, and the other 2 was a camping trip we were both on). I am somewhat looking forward to her current fantasy world colliding with reality post divorce when that number is reduced DRAMATICALLY, unless that is that her parents rescue her as per usual. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh again.

Yes yes yes. Got up three times during the night with D2 took care of the kids for the whole day took them on bus out to playcenter food-shopped cooked healthy lunch + healthy dinner did laundry hung laundry folded laundry tidied vacuumed fed them cleaned up bathed them got them ready for bed put them to sleep but OOPS! forgot to wash out the glass with milk in it right away because I NEVER listen to her about these things and I always have an EXCUSE.


Another crime which I should burn in Hades for. Like how she's been getting rejected for jobs all this week and I've done nothing to support, except for listening and empathizing to everything she has to say, taking non-stop leaves for her interviews and preparation time, coaching her, helping her fill out application forms. Really, I've done absolutely nothing because I have NO EMPATHY.

~ROE

Roland,

You are getting good advice from Enabler and Turkish here.  Let me particularly highlight Turkish's caution about the social worker.

The letter that you wrote to your rabbi comes to mind now.  Yes, you've made a lot of progress since then, but you are still at great risk of underemphasizing your wife's misbehavior and overemphasizing your own.  You are at risk because of your history of doing this, because you don't want to throw her under the bus.  You might also be worried about seeming like someone with an axe to grind, so you may play it too soft on your wife and too hard on yourself.

Treat the social worker visit like a job interview.  If you reveal a weakness (like the kids and your wife wearing you out), talk about your successful strategies for handling it -- problem solved.  I'm not saying to lie, but present an image of yourself as someone who has self awareness and effectively learns tools to improve things.  You want the social worker to think "Hey, we can work with this guy; I want to support him and invest in him."  Tell the social worker the details of all the child care you do, as well as key issues with your wife's behavior.  If you make it clear you are talking about her behaviors, not her entirety as a person, it will be easier for you to talk, and the social worker will be less likely to see you as someone with an agenda.  But don't hold back on the truth about what she is doing.

WW

Hi Roland
I find a cold face cloth on the back of the neck helps in short term or going for a walk - walking a dog id good if you have one.
I also recommend meditation in morning (& evening after a time) - you can start with 10mins and buildup to 30min - there's lots of Youtube videos that can  help focus your meditation.
Journaling too is great - congratulations on starting that. Remember to journal what you're grateful for - from little to big, from your breath, health, where you live, to your wife and children - everything!
Take care

Hi Caleb, thank you for you the great suggestions. I have a YouTube mediation video in my cache but haven't gotten to it yet since too much chaos. But chaos might be the best time for it. The journal idea is great, too!

Thanks, WW, an update on the social worker: I visited our psychiatrist a few days ago to get some sleep aids. I didn't plan to ask about my wife since I thought that was her personal business, but the doctor asked if the social worker had been in touch yet. I told her I honestly didn't know since my wife had barely spoken to me for a week. I asked what the purpose of the social worker was for, and the doctor said it was mostly about my wife, who she told me directly has very severe emotional regulation problems (she didn't come right out and say BPD). But she said that it was also to help the two of us resolve issues in having very different values in parenting. My guess here is that my wife fed her the usual story that I was unwilling to take paternity leave and so she got stuck at home with the kids (I took two paternity leaves and the second one cost me my job). I was a bit annoyed by this part but let it go. She said the social worker will talk to my wife first and then to me. I'm gonna lay it all down on the table.

~ROE

Regarding the below, I was considering opening a new thread but since I already have such great parenting gurus on the line here I'll use this one:

Big conflict last night. During bedtime, uBPDw started in on S5 about how he was going to the nanny tomorrow so she could do job interview work, which made him burst into tears and cry. I think sending them to nanny for a few hours = very OK; connecting the reason to how he didn't think to get her a treat when out with me during me the day and didn't thank her for the jello she bought him = very not OK because it makes him feel his place in our home is conditional. So like last time I stepped in and told her to stop and she couldn't connect the two things. She said look at how baba is yelling at me and took him into the living room. She kept trying to convince him why he should go. I went in and tried to rationally explain to her that he was exhausted and there was no way he was going to accept it right now, and that while it was good for her to let him know in advance, we could talk to him about it again in the morning. I took him back into bed held him and put my hands over his ears as she kept going at it, saying "You're going to the nanny" again and again. Eventually she grabbed his legs and dragged him crying into her bed and forced him to cuddle with her. He kept crying and said he wanted to go back with baba. She crawled in next to him and held him sweetly and said she loved him but explained how she and D2 would move away and he could stay with baba. More tortured crying from him until he fell asleep from exhaustion.  

Guys, should I keep stepping in here? When I do it just seems to make things worse. I think she even does some of these things to him to get back at me. Before I knew about her BPD I always used to keep my mouth shut to maintain the image of parental solidarity and avoiding confusing him, but I can see how abusive this behavior is, though it doesn't seem like something you can report to police. There was no where I could take him at that time of night. I even had the incredibly dark thought of pulling a knife on my wife and threatening her to stop. It breaks my heart to see him feel like his place in his own home is not secure and that mama will hurt him like this. I felt utterly powerless.

~ROE

Hi Roland,

That's a tough story to read; I'm sorry for you and your son that you both had to experience that.  Her behavior was disturbingly far out of bounds in several ways.  But yes, it does sound like your attempts to intervene made things worse.  When you suggest to us the possibility of reasoning with her, you are losing track of your wife's limited skill set.

Over time, you've been getting better at regulating your emotions in the moment, being mindful about your actions, and working more effectively.  There's still some work left to do here.  But -- and this is important -- do not get discouraged.  You are making good progress.  The level of your wife's dysfunction, plus the fact that you're raising small children, let alone your situation as an immigrant in a different culture mean that you have some very advanced challenges, even for folks around these parts.  Though it may not feel like it, you are performing far beyond where many other people would perform in a similar situation.

A few days after the fact, you probably could analyze the situation as well as I could.  Your wife wasn't open to your input, perceived you as a threat, and acted out against you.  You tried to influence her, but you were not able to.  It amounted to instigation rather than influence, because she perceived an attack.

I can only think of a single instance where directly confronting my wife seemed successful in hindsight -- and that was an instance of physical safety.  My wife was enraged, not rational, and was about to take my daughter in the car driving.  I stepped in and did not allow it.  I can remember many instances of trying to intervene in emotional situations that did not end up being effective.  With much older children, old enough that she can't carry them away, I have occasionally made a statement in support of the child who was receiving emotional abuse (something like "I was proud of D14 for how hard she studied for that test.", a statement that was not trying to get my wife to behave differently, just letting the child know believed in her.

If we are in a moment like the one you experienced, the unfortunate fact is that directly intervening can make things worse.  What can we do?

One option is to distract.  Use your creativity to think of a way to move your wife's attention onto another topic.  Something nonvolatile, something she would want to talk about or do.  It might be tough to think of something, but see if you can.  Or come at it appearing to be along the same direction as her, but veering off, "It sounds like S5 will have a big day with the nanny tomorrow while Mommy's doing job interviews!  Why don't you give mommy a high five to wish her luck before you head off to brush your teeth?"  Coming in with positive energy, appearing to back up your wife but steering it in a healthy direction, might be your best bet.

If you make an attempt to help, and it makes things worse, back off.  You might even calmly remove yourself from the room for a bit, close enough that you can hear, but appearing to be disinterested and occupied with other things, so your wife is not playing to you as the audience.  You are still observing things, for three reasons.  The first two are to intervene if there is physical abuse or danger, and to witness and record the incident to relate to your helpers.  Record direct quotes, such as what she said about splitting the family up.  That is important information for your helpers to know.  The third reason is to make note of what negative messages she is sending to your son, so that later, in ways that do not instigate her or that she does not observe, you can send him the positive opposite message.  You don't throw her under the bus, just give him the positive message.  For example, assure him that your love for him is unconditional, and you will use every bit of your intelligence and strength to be there for him.  And show these things to him through your actions.  In fact, over time, you may want to keep adding to a special journal page listing the various negative messages or examples you are worried the children are getting, and through your words and actions develop ways that you can demonstrate the positive opposite to them.  Her boundary violation about pulling him into bed when he didn't want to be there is important.  Make sure you identify and respect his age-appropriate boundaries, particularly around his body, looking for opportunities to highlight his ability to decide things for himself in appropriate ways.

You will not be able to save your children from many of the damaging moments.  That is something that is terribly difficult to accept.  But getting a firm handle on all of the negative messages and figuring out a way to communicate the positive opposites -- that's a meaty, worthwhile task that you can tackle and excel at.

WW

Hi WW, thank you for your detailed reply. I've been getting rid of my last leave days so not online for a while.

I've already started implementing your suggestions. It's better. I thought it would be good for my son to see me stand up to mom when she's out of line and say it's not OK, like I always wished my dad would have done, but the fact is it only makes things worse. It's possible my dad might have been able to calm my mom down, but that is not the case in our house. By stepping in I only drive up the hurt for my son. So I let a few things go by. But as soon as we found some quiet time together I sent him positive messages.

Roland

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