BPDFamily.com

So I knew this would happen eventually.

Heres the trailer to the new sequel

she came on the same bus as me, not sure if she had seen me but she was glued to her phone and sat near.

At first I didnt recognise her, she is ageing fast and it was only 9 months, (drugs and alcohol not good for the skin) the magnetism wasnt there like the previous recycle. she was still wearing my hoody!

I felt confident and just went and sat right next to her, obviously she was slightly nervous but I kept the conversation very neutral. I took the opportunity to let her know how well my life is going and as I was pressured to get off at the next stop I told her im sorry I ghosted her like that, (rubbing it in and making it obvious that I had, in fact, intentionally ignored her) she mirrored and said "its fine, Ive done that to people too". (yep, now you know how it feels like!)

 I made the exigent decision to offer her my phone number as my stop was coming up quick and she accepted it. I know that its easy enough for me to just change sim card again, but I took the opportunity to re-establish contact with ze enemy. I never made any more attempt to get hooked in by making promises to meet up or anything of the sort, I never showed any interest.

It was also very helpful to overcome the fear that I had about what would happen when this day came, I knew it would, and those feelings I had in the previous encounter just werent there. no infactuation, no magnetism. She seemed completely caught off guard and didnt have a chance to prepare her stage-act, which tells me she wasnt stalking me like the previous time, I can only imagine what must have been processing through her mind, when I left she was glued back to her phone but I could see the tension in her face. That person I was so fearful of for all those years looked dejected and pitiful, it was good to see.

I told her I wont be able to see her that much because im very busy, like I said, this may or may not be opening a can of worms again. but whats done is done, im not the same person she met and I wont be intimidated by anyone in the city I grew up in. All I can say is, I failed my no contact resolution, but it was exigent circumstances. She will always be regarded as an enemy, but its the old saying "keep your friends close and your enemies even closer".

Im really happy that this happened and it didnt provoke the emotional response in me that I expected it might, i saw her in a different light than during the r/s, she probably picked up on this, I felt in control but I also felt no spark. I hope at the very least I will have ruined her day by showing her how well im doing and my blatant assertiveness. She didnt manage to grind me down as she had hoped. Whoever she had triangulated with against me cant be treating her that well, she looked withdrawn and dishevelled. it was the first time since knowing her that we parted without a kiss, and regardless of the fact that it wouldnt have really been appropiate, I could sense she was waiting for it almost like a ritual, I cant believe I wasted so much of my energy on Medusa or what I had got myself into such a headspin about.

have I therefore, actually detached by virtue of re-engaging her? Id say that I needed to do this as a step towards closure. Ghosting her like I did was fine to get the space but it still left residual fears and worry. Complete detachment is getting closer by confronting her and seeing Medusa in a new perspective than what I had previously. Im also glad there was no anger, there were times I felt if I would see her it would provoke a great deal of inner rage and I wouldnt care if it happened on a bus full of passengers or not, the anger wasnt there. So its all proof to me how much more a confident person ive become since time to heal on these boards.

watch this space. :)

Perseus without a mirror!  Yep -you said this would happen... .small town. 



You just lived my worst nightmare -I am only 4 months gone, but the idea of seeing my ex ruined scars me.  It is that pride thing all over again -I tried to lift her up and along with my heart, I have come to learn through our discussion my pride was hurt too.  I was not enough.



I see your angle here, but I feel it is my job to play devils advocate.  Cui Bono?  How does this really benefit you?

A bit of fear is healthy -you don't need to stick your hand in a flame to remember it can burn you.   Of course you know best, but having temptation at hand?  Why buy a pack of cigarettes and have them on the mantel when you have quit smoking? i.e. giving her your phone number.


My favorite manner of revenge is reflected in the Fountainhead.   Dominique Keating has destroyed Howard Roark's career.

"Mr. Roark, we're alone here. Why don't you tell me what you think of me? In any words you wish. No one will hear us."

"But I don't think of you."

The way I deal with 'revenge' is to put no energy or thought into a person whatsoever.  Hating someone shows a level of care -I literally have no enemies, I want to neither waste the time nor the energy to do so.  I will one day no longer think about or care what happens to my ex.  I will ultimately wreak the most terrible and damning revenge on her of simply moving on with my life.

The guy who said this is dead -and never dated a stalker... .


I am happy for you and you should be proud of yourself.  You have come a long way!

Stop caring what she thinks!  It is a trap -that way lies madness and you know it.


Be carful this sounds like justification --thin ice in my opinion. 


What have we read here about trying to get closure with people suffering from BPD?  From what I experienced first hand my BPD ex interpret and respond to our relationship in a very different manner than people without the disorder might have.  What may have felt like closure to you may very well be an invitation to her.  The next time you see her she could be mirroring you again -as you said you caught her off balance.  Do you need to pit yourself on a full broadside salvo from her?

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am happy for you, but Perseus keep your mirror handy and your sword sharp.  You may be playing with fire -I had not planned to post much today but your new thread, frankly, concerned me.

Something about exhumed and beheaded... .


Wicker Man

I am not done... .

What would you have written to me if I ran into ':)ream Come True' -yes that is the literal translation of her name, and I gave her my phone number?


Please please take care.


Wicker Man

 If she contacts I will ignore until ive got myself in a clearer state of mind, so far theres nothing done that cant be undone or learned from. im already (not just from your posts) but feeling unsettled by my choice, I suppose the action had plus and negative, I think I was gloating too much and thats what she picked up on, I couldnt resist it, which is to do with my own impulsiveness, I can be very sarcastic but in a way that it cant be taken as obvious. i am very grateful to have your wisdom and overview, I couldnt resist to show her up, I would have felt i sent the wrong message by having to leave the bus as a sign of weakness, as if I was afraid of her, but actually, maybe it would have been the opposite. OR as you suggest, I could have surpassed all that and not even cared what she thought. I guess I slipped up. Oh well, will sleep on this and contemplate it all better myself tomorrow, going to watch some tv and zone out for awhile, thanks for the debrief of the encounter, its interesting the entire time I didnt stare into her eyes, I think that helped and she probably realised I was avoiding the hypnotism.

Take care of yourself Cromwell - Wickerman did a great job reflecting some of your encounter back to you and you're doing an excellent job being reflective about it.

I bet this experience brought up conflicting emotions in you and it sounds like you're sitting with some unsettling stuff now. That makes total sense and I bet a lot of us would be in the same boat.

Good idea to zone out for a bit and distract yourself. There's not much to be done about the encounter now and you have no idea if she will contact or not. It sounds like you know what to expect from her if she does and you know that you want to protect yourself from that. Here's to wishing strength in your corner.

-L

What do you do in a destructive harmonic?   Add no energy

I will write more tomorrow. 

Please take some time and re-read what you have written to me.  Read the advice you gave to a man you do not know. 

You cannot know this enemy as she does not know herself -but in an uncanny way she may know you better than you know yourself.  She does not want to win the battle -she simply wants to join the Frey.  The battle is the victory condition for her. 

Well she texted, (the hook) and it was to give me her number and hoping im doing well. So I just responded along the same lines, (mirrored).

Will see how it goes, this could be an excellent opportunity to conduct qualitative research that will benefit others. I will keep this going in pursuit of science, I did think of just having one last time sex with her then ghosting her, but for some reason like I said, the revenge feelings arent  anymore for some reason, probably by being on this board and learning in this interlude that she is a victim of her disorder and I dont take it as personal as I once did.

the only thing that is a bit annoying is having to play this WOE shells game, it took me 5minutes to make a basic response to her text due to weighing up what to say and how to say it. she will know from her phone that her text was recieved and read by me and will have taken that into account. Im not going to play this game, she needs me and im not going to pussyfoot around, there will never be a r/s beyond what she thinks at the moment is reconciling as "friends". She can provide me with valuable research about her condition so I can further heal and perhaps provide more insight to others via this experience. I will play a long as a 'friend' which is the term she has used in her text. so far she is pouring golden words in my ear like the start of the other 2 honeymoon periods, good so far. The timer starts today, im going to chronograph and take comprehensive notes, I was never interested in psychology before but this investigative psychology is quite interesting. I spend a lot of time on these boards talking about her anyway, may as well have have her for new material. there will be some gold left to dig up and its my intention to extract as much value as possible.

Wicker man, perhaps this was supposed to happen and will benefit the understanding, she can at least provide that and as a byproduct will do some good. i wont let her put me in any compromising situations, what would be helpful is to search for answers beyond the written literature. There is only so much value can be got from the great texts, or literary masterpieces, im aiming for a synthesis between this and more experiential data. I did find something that resembled closure, but I think this happened for a reason, a proper conclusion, I need this to mop up the last droplets of residual emotion.

I think the encounter probably reawoken her from the object permeance. I still "exist" and she had to confront this., accept this, and probably had to evaluate the fact we shared 3 years together. The fact that she has - at least on the surface - reengaged after my NC ghosting, tells me that she must feel some sort of guilt to have provoked that. The way I see it is anyone I was ever in a r/s with prior would have told me to go away. they wouldnt be wearing my clothes either.

for now shes being respectful and cordial, either way im not emotionally attached like I was before and if she disappears or acts up again, time will tell, it wont affect me, and will also be interesting to observe for me at least. i see it as a slow chess game, nothing more nothing less, I dont watch tv anymore or pre packaged entertainment for the masses, this is more exciting and interesting. Wicker man, those who play with fire get an emotional release from watching the flames. There is a pyromaniac in every firefighter, but they are trained well and I feel competent in what im doing. theres never going to be a r/s so theres not much risk of what she can do. in all likelihood its probably going to be quite stale and boring, its partly my chance to show her the "new" me, and differentiate myself from all the others. If she loses interest it is because she realises in the battle of wits she was the one unarmed. She was always gloating at how she managed to out-fox all the guys in her previous r/s as a way of bolstering her low self esteem, if this is her intent (and I know that by going NC I 'won' that round) she probably wants to settle the score, that is a strong possibility, but I am curious as to what she really is up to as opposed to just assuming ulterior motives. The only compliment I ever got from her, during her anger moment was "your really smart". I think this was a point of frustration for her, her perception that I was too smart to be controlled. It did seem in contrast to her previous r/s she selected far less astute partners. The only leverage she had with me is meeting me at a time where my chemical interest over rode my senses. Im not in that state whatsoever anymore, its a different playing field.

I will text her tomorrow, what do you think? but non emotional commital, I have the feeling she might want to ghost me, but only after invoking some sort of emotional attachment, i.e fawning over her. I will keep it bland, dry and sterile. If this really is her immature hidden agenda at getting the score to 1:1, then so be it, the worst that will happen is she will move away feeling superior and the ego restored. This is actually to my advantage, a win-win situation, she wont feel resentment and grudges (which for some strange reason I care about) and I will be completely free of her. The reason I think she texted was the feeling if she would have hesitated for too long, I might use that to wriggle away, she was striking when the iron was still hot (or so she believes)

lets see how it plays out.

Pawn to B4  :)

Ok... .  'In all likelihood' which implies you are not sure it will be stale and boring. 

There is an old Chinese saying about a man who wished to see a dragon -one day a dragon appeared and the old man died of fright.  Do not wish for dragons... .

Why do you value her opinion of you?  She was a woman who you gave the name of a monster. One of the gorgons -in fact Medusa means 'The ruling one'.  I mentioned Perseus in the context of remembering the danger a single glance could bring.  Now you are talking about not only setting down the mirror, but opening a dialogue.

Further... .she is a woman whom you did not trust, she made you feel ill at ease and literally hacked your phone.  She showed herself to be a clear and present danger.  Unlike ':)ream come True' yours showed intent. She was not a leaf blown in the wind -this is someone who did you harm and knew what she was doing.

I can tell you in all certainty you are a one in a million human being -of course you were the best man she ever met and likely ever will.  So call this a win and go on being the best you can be in a life without her.  --Why spend time with someone who is not your equal?

In you previous statement you said she 'out-foxed' all of her previous boyfriends --but not you... .  It seems to me you are giving her the chance at a re-do to complete her perfect batting average -If she does actually have malicious intent imagine her motivation for revenge at this point?

Going NC in my case was a commitment to DEFCON 5.  Negotiations are done the war was declared and ended in a single swift, decisive and lethal stroke. 

"There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited". --Sun Tzu

I understand the intellectual curiosity -believe me I have a many, now irrelevant, questions about what ':)ream Come True' was really like -but they are irrelevant -pointless -dangerous to both of us. Caring about these questions simply means I am not done healing.  ':)ream Come True' cannot help me heal and I know better than to ask her to help -my healing must come from within.

You are really smart! (ok... .I have to point out the irony of using 'your' instead of 'you're'... .  but I am a smartass)  When I reply to your posts I have to use every bit of my knowledge base, I throw every once of my being into my replies an attempt to stay on par with you.  Hanging on tight in order to not be thrown to the wolves. 

Why would you seek validation from someone who can't understand you?  If she is anything like ':)ream Come True' she doesn't know herself -how could she ever hope to know you?


My dance with BPD hit me so hard the foundation of my very being shuddered and cracked.  I lost all sense of right and wrong, I was able to indulge in a fantasy with a staggering cost --and I didn't care.  I style myself as being a thoughtful man and in control.  Hell! manipulation is my job -I have shot over 600 TV commercials and even a couple of propaganda movies for the Chinese government, I lie professionally and yet I was drawn in and blinded myself --fairytale love.  If you open communication with her in a moment of weakness the dance could begin again.  --You could find yourself tired, lonely, drunk, bored a misstep would be so easy with her in your life.


With all due respect you already know what I think --I think you are making a mistake.


Once again why?  In my opinion one must always consider the source in life.  If someone I do not respect gives me a compliment I am untouched -when someone I do not respect criticizes me or shows disrespect toward me I am equally untouched.

Pawn to B4

Yes... Yes... .Knights Pawn to Queen's knights 4.  You were her 'Knight in shining armor' and she was your 'Queen' --walk away.  Was your choice of B4 an accident dear Perseus? 

I am manipulative.  I learned it from my mother who was subtle surgical in her manipulation.  If need be I can control a conversation through empathy, cold reading, probability, stimulus and response to guide it with 'unseen hands'... .Just like a game of chess. --I choose not to it is taxing and Machiavellian --Weaponized dialogue is a tool and one I try to not be forced to utilize.  Just like a gun -I try not to put myself in a situation where it is needed.



Wicker Man

Theres not much for me to say except, thanks for taking the time to take my head out the clouds.

Das Boot is one of my BPD films, do you recall the ending scene? I dont want my voyage to end the same way.

keeping her at arms length is back to periscope depth. you are right, this is retaliation time, she hasnt forgiven me for what I did and maybe this time I wont be so smart as to avoid the depth charges.

after all ive been through and achieved, I need more self respect than to play along with this. this isnt 'winning' it is a convoluted mess of emotions resulting from not achieving the conclusion that suits me. but i think i finally found it, the conclusion or final act of the medusa stage play is, Perseus changes his sim card - again.

it might actually be the outcome I needed, I saw her again, there was no display of anger or hatred, there was a brief re-engagement but no commital. theres no shame on either side if I crash dive and re-rig for silent running.

even though i dont think reaching the safe harbour of indifference is attainable, I will in time learn to live with that. NC again, envious of your 4 month head start wicker man. fair play  :)

note to self : public transport sucks

From the movie War Games "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

My heart aches for you.  I know precisely the temptation.  To tell you the truth --I drove past my freeway exit after reading about your considering opening a continued line of communication.  I could relate so utterly with the temptation I was playing the scenarios through in my mind and missed the turn off to my home. --codependent people pleaser to the end I suppose.

If I (God forbid) run into Dream Come True somewhere I would be cordial and bring the encounter to as quick a conclusion as decorum might demand. 

Cromwell --I hate the image of what this beautiful person's life will become.  I do not want to bare witness.  Her next boyfriend will likely beat her -as the last one did, she will likely begin drinking again, this will likely end in her being raped.  The only time I yelled at her was when she put herself into a MeToo situation with a producer who is a known rapist.  -I now believe she was thrill seeking and liked the charge the attention and danger brought her.

I cannot and will not watch the slow-motion catastrophic demise of a woman I loved so deeply.  She broke me -but there is no solace she can give me now -only further pain.  I have no wish for revenge, as it would offer me no relief. 

I am No Contact out of self preservation and fear.  Not fear for my safety, but for fear of having to watch her step by step fall into darkness.

She sent me a text one morning at 4am from a bar "Remember I am young and beautiful"  Sadly, youth is considered a consumable resource in China.  She will be consumed and replaced.


Wicker Man

P.S. Can't you just block her number rather than having to change SIM's?

P.P.S.  I apologize for writing 'Frey' instead of 'Fray'... .  I wish we could edit after hitting post.

Keep Your Friends Close and Your Enemies Closer?

This quote is from from Machiavelli in "The Prince," the definitive primer for how to be a dictator. I don't think it applies here at all (or at least it shouldn't).

"Exigent decision" is fair. This terminology describes situations in which the decision maker acknowledges that it is imperative to act rather quickly, but in sufficiently complex matters, this denies the decision maker the foresight into the consequences of his or her decision... .this is the concept of exigent decision.

But now that you have had time to reflect, is positioning this in your mind as a social experiment to help others, and/or revenge, and safe, because you can get a new sim card for your phone and turn be safe, sounds like a fairly farfetched and unrealistic rationalization of an exigent decision.

The more realistic outcomes are an apology and reparations for acting badly (i.e, ghosting someone) and/or an attempt at emotional re-connection on some level.

Exigent decision or mot, you know have time to reflect on the complexity of the matter and the possible outcomes... .you want to do that wisely.

Skip

PS: Nix the social experiment, we have hundreds of examples of this narrative already.  *)

There may well be a sociological dimension, a cultural sphere to your situation in addition to the psychological. Not much is discussed here on the sociology behind the generation of BPD, considering it has its roots firmly in a dysfunction of the family unit.

I did worry during the r/s about her constantly, it is what burned me out emotionally.  The statistics are that the higher the insurance coverage the more risky the behaviour on the insured. I often felt that my exs behaviour got worse at times being with me, after all, she could count on being rescued. Are parts of your fears maybe exaggerated? Mines were. If your ex knew that you deeply cared for her, and it is clearly obvious you did, it is likely in my mind she would be tempted to initiate these reckless scenarios and each time wait to see the hero intervene. proving your love each time. this was very much an ongoing theme of the years. Mine found it amusing, in a sort of "girl that cried wolf" way. eventually she fabricated things to suggest she was in danger, just to have me race after her. I did call her out on this and it stopped when she realised I knew she was game playing. the problem is, just like that story, i was always unsettled to know each time whether it was just a game or not. all part of the emotional unsettlement grind down each day.

The brief conversation with my ex yesterday revealed that she had actually stuck out a job now for over a year. if it is true then from how she was before I met her and during the r/s it is a huge accomplishment - perhaps me leaving forced her to become more resourceful and independent, it was part of the impression (although she could well have been window dressing) that she had stabilised to a great extent and matured. again, all guesswork and diverting from the purpose of being here,  im now focusing on my ex all over again when I was just starting to enjoy some peace. maybe this was supposed to happen or at least serves a purpose of showing what can happen. Im just lucky to have the support here which I didnt have before, your dialogue has not fallen on deaf ears it has strengthened my resolve to pick up where I started and I sincerely thank you for that. I wont change sim card, lets wait and see what the next move is, she probably got some relief by testing the waters (again, trying to rationalise the behaviour of a person living with psychosis), its back to square one again. but, regardless, we might learn something here, im interested in when and what the next move is.

you know its the same concept behind why millions tune in to the soap operas, after 30minutes you are left with the story not being fully completed and there is this deep psychological compulsion to tune in the next time to see the conclusion, only for the new story to end half way. its the same with this, and why I dont watch soap operas i was addicted to them too, with my ex, No Contact was the only way to break free .

No need for the apology on the spelling etc, there is a great deal of emotional fatigue in all of this, this is real work even if it might not appear as such. i get a lot of emotional 'transference' from posts i read here that resonate with me and have needed a break from it all. keeping up with the drama that my ex would generate was like sprinting a marathon. this brief re-encounter has been more unsettling than I thought at first. im going to take a short break and regain some endurance, got exams this week and not letting her throw a spanner in the works. before i do just want you to know that by worrying about her doesnt change anything in a practical way, it is just causing distress. if you think about it that way, it doesnt make any logical sense. if you committed yourself to saving her, then it would make sense but you went NC and decided to not participate. These are the loose ends that I also need to work on, particularly when it seemed I worried a lot for nothing (medusa is doing fine) and even if she wasnt, by being NC i wouldnt know if she wasnt, its part of the protective power of it. ignorance is bliss.

just to reiterate... .

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.


Best of luck on your exams. 

Good evening crom, I was about to type a huge response almost begging you to not text her but it seems between the others posting you thankfully changed your mind.DO NOT do that fatal mistake I did ,it will lead to ground hog day the movie over and over again.I have come to terms it’s over and haven’t texted or spoke to her in awhile and I’m feeling pretty good.I stopped drinking,I have no intention of speaking to her or going to meet her for breakfast and frankly I’m going to avoid her 100%. I have stopped researching why people with BPD are the way they are,and why they do things they do,and I also stopped trying to figure out why I fell into that relationship or tolerated it for so long.At this point it no longer matters to me .I wish her no ill will and hope she goes through life as happy as she can possibly be with her two sons .I have zero will to change her,help her,control her,save her, she isn’t my responsibility and never was.

I managed to change in a short time and find my old self prior to this past relationship.Back to weightlifting,jogging, boxing courses, motorcycling,yard work and reading ( not on BPD).Ive also started eating better again and spend more time outside the house than inside.All in all I’m back to looking after myself,a better way to heal.

I still have feelings for her ,but reviewing the memory tapes and trying to figure out what I could have done to prolong the relationship was pointless at this point.It would be the equivalent of reviewing the black box footage in hopes of saving the already dead passengers... .a pointless endless emotional whirlwind with nothing positive to gain.With that said thank god you didn’t text her ,and please do everything in your power to resist her calls to you.Researching BPD by experimenting with her is a bad idea really bad,this forum has enough material trust me ,don’t do that to yourself it will drain you and it’s unfair to her to... .she isn’t well and honestly like my exGF ,leaving them alone is probably the best thing for them and us.

Hope this helps ,Stay strong brother

Cromwell,

As you take to your studies I wished to thank you for giving me the most precious of gifts —your time.  

Thanks Shawnlam,

I havent blocked her, I had replied to her first text where she gave me her number, but it is only short, not emotive standardised replies, the type more suited to a business transaction.  she texted again today. I havent replied to this one, it is sweet talk designed to get me primed again. Her replacement facing jail might have a lot to do with all this renewed interest. Shawnlam, like yourself, I was too busy, the bait was thrown that by now I would be with her, have had sex and be spending the next few days listening to her innane drivel, slumped in a corner from  the drug comedown. The circuits lit up in my head when I got the text, because they remembered the pattern, I diverted it, went to town and bought myself an expensive textbook instead. She cant seduce or turn me on anymore, and its good that ive had the reengagement and feel that way. I also feel great to have her in my phonebook as medusa, and each little hook she casts and thinks will work, I can imagine her sour dejected face, instead of the thrill of feeling that she is outwitting someone, playing with their emotions and getting the attention that her parents never gave.

Im programming myself to see her as a bore, and this re-engagement is all going to be about my needs. it is the converse of what the r/s was, and I want her to know that. She will have to work a whole lot harder for her food. "i aswas feeling really low yesterday". my thoughts are "sucks to be you I guess, what has that got to do with me? in any case, I dont even know if that is true, you speak with the forked tongue, so why waste my time responding with a "so sorry to hear that" platitude, that you can laugh your ass of about.

Im never going to get roped in again, if anything, her lack of shame in re-engaging me after all that happened speaks volumes about her character. It has been good for me to witness and confirms I was right in detaching. It has helped to recognise that the spark isnt there, rather than to theorise that it isnt. Her texts are designed that I would already be now meeting her, having sex, going through the same old groundhog day (as you state) motions. There was a time that like pavlovs dogs I would have salivated for that, those times are gone, and I feel a far better person for it.

I also like how the revenge feelings, the anger, the negative energy that surrounds her I redirect, a bit like Judo, and channel into my own life. Im not going to block her, my intention is to only reply to direct questions in a bland, boring, indifferent but corteous way and leave a few hours to do so. It will be more punishment than NC, shows her that I exist (Forget me not) but im not a viable food supply. Each time I sidestep her traps I feel better about myself, its not about punishment so much as to conclude the story of showing myself that I finally adapted and overcame it. (The BPD experience programme).

So happy for you Shawnlam, I remember when you first came here, its not the easiest of fog to get out, but you managed it. |iiii

Sometimes you have to use the same tactics against those that deploy them. I havent fully read that book but just because one quote from a person, based on their background, is not sufficient to devalue the quote itself. Even dictators have 'good points' of value, cant just paint black. But I do feel that it is a poor excuse for keeping contact, especially as the antics had disappeared during the no contact to the point of her not apparently being much of a threat anymore.

At least I dont. Yet overall, I agree with your opinion, I reacted impulsively on reflection for reasons I havent yet even figured out. Probably curiosity to finally come face to face again with the person who has consumed a great deal of my emotions, even negatively. I will take your advice and reflect more about it, thank you.

The Prince is a 16th century political treatise that has been studied by scholars for hundreds of years. I was not devaluing the quote or the author or the work, I was suggesting that its meaning doesn't apply to our situation's here.  *)

its a zero sum game my friend, sharing knowledge, no one losses out. The wisdom and camaraderie from yourself and others here, I dont know where I would be without it.

You have great wit and a sense of humour, its not that I have managed to dehumanise Medusa by the comparison, but when I see her behaviour and can associate her behaviour and mines as more like cartoon sketch, it takes away the vileness out of it and along with it, the negative energy, the bitterness anger even hatred at times.

I like how you show compassion to your ex, it has inspired me to try to consider the same. I dont believe in giving comfort to the enemy, but at the same time, ive readjusted my mindset as to how much value I place in what she did. she was the enzyme, but I connected each time. She guided me towards debasing myself, eroding of self esteem, but  

My goal is to finally detach, and that means psychic healing as well as the practical ways i have achieved, and youve went a long way in helping me towards this. Nietsche would be calling me the silly little untermensch, for allowing myself to be treated this way. So no more Nietsche please, thats all I ask!  :)  :)

nothing more makes me feel better than if i hear people have at least got marginally "better", I hope this has been the case for you. From where I started, it was from a stage of near incapacitance mentally, to finally building up resistance, then almost relearning how to walk again. Each day was slightly, if not tangibly, better than the day before to the point where I almost feel a stronger person than when I even entered the r/s in the first place. Its why I say that meeting her has been more of a gift than a detriment and I can safely say that the "I will destroy you" prophecy will never materialise, your better then that and know it. Just as I will never be "together, forever". These were whimsical notions of ill people that at the time we attributed too much meaning towards. You did well to take it seriously, often these statements are used to alleviate guilt for future behaviours where they can say "well, I did tell you so". but enough amateur psychoanalysis, i can at best just say how i feel based on what I went through, ive got some experience and deliver it unfiltered, unrefined, tactless to the point of being seen as blunt. For some people, it helps, others I need to learn to modify it, im glad my style resonates with you and you can use what you can on your own journey towards self recovery. I thought it would work with my r/s, maybe you did too, but mines had a different concept, more quid-pro-quo. its why she is my "ex", and will never be more than just that.

have an amazing day. (if you did the 4am declaration ritual I am assured you will have had already).  :)

what tactics is she deploying?

Cromwell,
    Question? Why do you want to play a game with someone who is sick? Revenge?
I will tell you this... .the BPD will always win. BPD’s are survivors, you can get revenge on them all you want and they will just find someone else to cling to.

There was a time I could relate to how you are feeling. I wanted to get back at her for all the hurt she caused me. I almost lost my job, I lost a lot of money... .I was slandered all over the place.

I wanted her to pay.

What changed my mind? Her life sucks. It’s a dead end. She repeats the same relationship over and over with different people. She never resolves issues or the end of a relationship, she just jumps into another one and each time everything compounds over and over again.

She will never be happy.

You sound like a guy that has his stuff together in life. Why not find a healthy, mentally sane woman to have sex with and let your ex be.  Find compassion. You can have a great life and are capable. She likely never will without a ton of therapy.  

Best of luck to you!
PW

Well... .The super man -the thinking feeling man inevitably seemed to alway perish in the German expressionist stories --So Übermensch doesn't fare much better -but I will refrain from further quoting Nietzsche... .

In fact my therapist suggested I read more Nietzsche -I told him I am too polarized as it is and should refrain.  So now I am trying to wade through Lacan -OMFG... .  In life watch what you ask for... . 

After she said "You must leave me -I will destroy you" I asked her over and over what she meant and she would never speak of it again -I take this to mean she always knew the truth of the statement.

As I have said, I lament the loss of the dream -she was the catalyst of my fantasy.  Coming back down to Earth will take some time.

I am happy for you in your journey.  Keep the shiny side up!


Wicker Man

none at the moment besides using the same phraseology she had in the height of the honeymoon era, shes trying to trigger me with the pet names and the sweet talk that always worked. At the same time, the same old silly lies interspersed in her texts. Shes trying to basically recontinue where we left off, as if nothing ever happened in between. telling me how bad she feels, to prompt me to rescue her. Fair enough shes probably just behaving in the way she thinks I want to or that used to work. its part of why I like being back in contact, to show her - and prove more importantly to myself - that it doesnt work.

im having trouble finding closure, revenge seems like one option to achieve that.

she wants to meet up, in an ideal world I could sit and have a coffee and tell her everything how I felt and how her behaviour has affected me, be open and honest, even if she could just listen to it and not contribute, but that is the frustration, I know that it wouldnt achieve anything positive, she would just lie like she always did when I tried this and worst, part of me feels she enjoys it in a sadistic way, I got that impression twice before. She then later used it against me to hurt me more, in the midst of her verbal attacks. You are right of course, just to move on, I think I will I just need to accept that there will never be the type of closure that i wanted, its difficult to have this person orbiting around, had stalked me so much and not feel can just get on with normal life. I will though, and thanks for your insight.

Cromwell , the unfortunate truth behind BPD is the lack of closure but it all depends on how you see it.I to used to want closure as seen in my past posts ,texting her,wanting to go to breakfast etc ... But honestly why? I’d be leading on and playing with the emotions of someone highly unstable emotionally causing her harm.Then in return not surprisingly she would hurt me as revenge hence starting a vicious circle of pure chaos.Why?

I think we all kinda got the best closure one can ask for to be honest ... .we got a definition or label to what our partners had? How many guys in normal relationships get the boot by a normal woman with zero  excuses ?plenty! And they get no definition for that behavior just a goodbye .I fore one know now why this happened to my relationship both her issues and mine ,tada done .Do I want to accept it ? No choice anyways so yes .Doesnt mean I love her any less today if anything maybe a bit more knowing she isn’t well.But I can’t and won’t stand in front of the tunnel again hoping what I’m seeing is a light knowing damn well it’s a train coming... .and to a certain extent I’d you love(d) her don’t you kinda owe it to her to stop? Let her suffer with herself ,why add more gas to the fire?

I’m on your side as a victim Cromwell trust me but maybe if we take the high road and just show some compassion for them you will feel better about where you stand .? Just a though brother take care

I think the ghosting did enough damage... .that is pretty potent stuff... .you freaked her out.


I don't know this "ideal world". When couples break up, there is not a lot of "let me know help you heal" and "I was wrong"... .in any relationship. We have to heal ourselves. That's why we are here.


Most likely, getting closure on the ghosting is high on her list... .as it would be for anyone. You can't fix that anymore than she can fix you. You can only make peace.

Don't make an exigent decision. Open up and talk here.

A mature meet-up would be to apologize and not hit on her. She will probably follow that lead and then you can say, "see ya around", and you both can go off and heal a bit.  Maybe in two weeks or so, you might want to stick your foot in again, or maybe you will feel more committed to move on.

We want to be more mature in the breakup than we were in the relationship. Its the start of a new life for us.

Shawn, I don't want to hijack, so this might be answered in a new thread, but is your takeaway that from all that happened is that she was strong and vengeful and you were a victim?  I ask, because I think she might be feeling that you were strong and vengeful and she was weak and overwhelmed and being pushed and couldn't handle it all that was facing her.


Curious to hear your thoughts... .I'm not minimizing the humiliation and disrespect that you felt, just asking if it was strength/vengeance or weakness/overwhelmed/bad choices. Just asking the question of predator/victim.

Skip

your words have been very soothing for how this has felt today, i think the most important thing is to realise I dont feel obliged to react to anything, there was always this press for urgency and my ex was very fixated on prompt replies to her messages or she would react badly, as well as committing to be punctual. So I often had little chance to think things through before carrying them out. Ive got the luxury now that I have time to reflect before doing things but it didnt properly sink in until you mentioned it that way. The spacing of time for replying to her messages now is unlike anything ive ever been during the r/s, I dont mean it to cause her upset, Im just being cautious and careful. It also solidifies in my mind and I hope hers, that this is not just a "re-continuance" of what was before, that this is not commited r/s that it once was, things have changed. I dont know if that is even something she will likely understand, have the empathy to realise that people change.

Part of me feels guilty, yes she did a lot of very hurtful and reckless things, but I do attribute them all to her disorder, she did try to amend them as best she could and at times I saw feelings of remoarse, guilt and had apologies. The problem is the cycle would recommence and she would often backtrack and make out that those apologies were just staged and used to fool me (which was like adding insult to injury). Its just that I dont know if she said anything she could to hurt, even if it was just lies. It was such a destructive cycle for this reason, I had no choice to NC out of it eventually. My intuition tells me she does suffer genuine regret and shame, its just that it is momentary and short lived. Its just not easy when she keeps burning every bridge, I think she was surprised herself, she often mentioned incredulously how long we had been together as if in disbelief that she had managed.

Im going to try and make my peace with her, I just dont yet know how, but youve helped me the most to make me realise that there is no urgency in doing so. thanks for this Skip. 

Hi Cromwell,

I have one question for you.  When you receive a text from her how do you feel?  What is your instantaneous emotional response?  Excitement, dread, fear, guilt, something in between, all of the above?  I ask this because all rationalisation aside, it is this that you need to be most aware of, as it will be this that ultimately drives your actions.  Tune in to yourself and notice what your body is telling you.  Then, and only then, think seriously about what you want to do next.  I think you will find your answer.  Notice I am talking about you here.  Not her.  Make that shift. 

Love and light x

 No I will not say I’m a pure victim I played my role as well .I use the word victim because I didn’t know what I was getting myself into but then again she didn’t know she was unwell.All in all both me and her had parts to play in our relationship,sometimes I feel cheated and victimized but then I remind myself I participated the whole time.

I decided to finally text her and she responded within a few minutes. I intentionally ignored the content of the emotional text she had sent the day prior and I sent her a humorous message instead. she just mirrored it and it made me momentarily happy, reminded me of how we got on so well in terms of our shared humour. Yet, when I noticed the mirroring, it has started to make me think of a pattern I hadnt realised, her good humour was always a mirroring of my style. I cant think of anything original that she made. its hard to actually recognise this now and not previously. Sorry I didnt answer your question, the emotional response of actually seeing her text, well it comes up as "medusa" and i always already feel excited before I even read it, is probably the most accurate emotion. the not knowing how it will affect me anticipation. not knowing how it will make me feel, it is the excitement each time that is there regardless. As wicker man told me, and what is making the most sense, the excitement of playing with fire.

I am going to sound obtuse due to repetition, but here goes... .  I would ask you to know your motivation before embarking on this endeavor.  Personally, I feel the compulsion to reach out to Dream Come True's friend to relay some of what I have learned from our relationship and since in therapy.  Valiant and altruistic no?  However, down deep I believe the driving force behind this compulsion is a desire for a connection to my lost dream.

What is more this means I still have not giving up on trying to save my Dream Come True -please note the use of 'my' here.  She is no longer mine and my watch is done. --Because she would have consumed me.

Earlier you spoke of revenge.  Living well is the only healthy revenge and living well is its own reward.  This is not to imply living well under her nose, but to simply live your life -a healthy and rewarding life. 

If You and 'The Ruler' (meaning of Medusa) could have helped each other, lead a healthy and fulfilling life together you would still be a couple.  You tried and tried hard.  Three years is a long run.

I am not a mental health care professional and my experience with BPD is antidotal -but from my point of view in leaving her you created pain which we mere neurotics could not ever hope to understand. 

Part of my attraction to Dream Come True was trying to save her from herself and a very cruel world.  Her culture is misogynistic and quite brutal toward women, so not only was I her 'knight in shining armor' (yep she said those words... .)  I was an imperialist knight -perhaps a Crusader... .  My Crusade was an attempt to save the beautiful part of her for the horrors of her tableaux and perhaps, even more so, from the demons of her childhood.  I had hoped to find my own salvation through her love -two broken people picking themselves up by their boot straps.  A wonderful and mortally flawed plan.

So to my point... .  You seem like a very good human being, so have a sit down and do some soul searching.  Why do you feel the need for further contact -how does it benefit you? 

From what you have written all she can offer you is chaos.  In a worst case scenario your attempt at closure might be enough motivation for her to believe she can recycle you, or maybe she simply starts stalking you.


Wicker Man

Dream Come True has a wonderful sense of humor.  We would have daily video calls with her grandparents and we would spend 30 minutes laughing.  I never sensed mirroring in her humor, but then again I am not repetitive in my humor.  As soon as she taught me a new word I would figure out a way to turn it around and make her 'pay' for her gift of knowledge with laughter.

I have read many people suffering from BPD have genius IQs -mine certainly did.  Lots of processing power, just bad system software.


Wicker Man

Do you remember all this?  It's not good stuff, Chrom.

We have had a lot of members come here, be very vocal, and then recycle back in (without learning the tools here) and end up back here again.

If there is unfinished business, and it certainty sounds like there is, there has to be significant change going back in.

If you're looking to entertain another round, please post on the Bettering Board. Get some help so you don't end up here (what you wrote) again.  :)

So the battle field has indeed changed.

There was an old theory in mass media analysis --The medium is the message  "... .a medium affects the society in which it plays a role not only by the content delivered over the medium, but also by the characteristics of the medium itself."

In other words by changing the location of this thread its meaning and characteristics will change.  Reactivity.



Keen observation Skip.



Wicker Man

Crom you are scaring me here with what your doing.I get this feeling even though you know what she is like ,you will still get hurt? That feeling you get when she texts you isn’t excitement,it’s camouflaged anxiety and not healthy physically in my opinion.I truely hope you rethink this science experiment for your own safety ? Wearing flip flops in Bermuda shorts with a set of cheap gardening gloves on , with the knowledge the test tube you are holding is filled with sarine gas ,doesn’t make it any safer.

my experiement is that she is going on high calorie controlled diet until she finally gets sick of it.
her rations are that whatever she says, Im going to mirror it directly back, so she can get the enjoyment of looking into "nothingness".
All that I have to do besides that tiny bit of work is to count the days until she sees through the new war doctrine.
she got the NC, from what skip said, it will have had an impact.
now she got the short term buzz of feeling that its back to business as usual, and I want her to figure out for herself that ill make her a mockery of herself.
you see the problem with NC, is the fear of a recycle. there is no fear of that anymore, the r/s and i say that word tenuously is back, just that what she doesnt yet know, it wont be anything worth a f. just like she isnt.

Mind games are not a healthy man's style.

honest question: is some of this stuff bravado?

the way i read it, you want her back, but youre afraid to get hurt here, and its comforting to think of this as just an experiment where you have control and arent vulnerable.

if im right, its okay (and it will help) to let your guard down and be honest. youre anonymous here and among people who get it. hey, i had fantasies of doing similar things.

ive followed your story since you got here, and i think youre a guy with a good heart, cromwell, so thats why i have a hard time believing youre going out of your way to hurt someone who has meant a great deal to you.

ive seen it before, though, and if thats really your goal, you have an opportunity to go the other way, and grow into someone bigger, better, older, smarter, wiser, and it will be with you for the rest of your life. the ones that go for revenge never learn, never heal, and they carry it into the next relationship, and the next, and the next.

Dear Cromwell,

You have been receiving some 'tough' love on this thread.  I hope, although some of the messages are harsh you can see the intent behind them.

Personally I have noticed a change in your writer's voice, the tone of your posts since your ex has come back into your life.  If you feel there is any validity to this observation, perhaps take a moment and reflect on why this may be.

I want what is best for you -whether it is to have her as your friend, go back to your relationship, or continue your previous no contact. 

Try to find a peaceful and quiet place within yourself to figure out what it is you might want before taking any action.  The three paths open to you, which I see as, having her in your life as a friend, a relationship partner, or continue your previous no contact.  All three of these life paths will require different approaches in future discourse or the lack there of with your ex.

You first.  This includes your studies, your health, and mental wellbeing.


Sincerely,


Wicker Man

in 3 years of 99% a great relationship 1% absolute mind warping hell. If I wanted to cause her harm or get revenge I would have. In some ways I did, its just that she puts on a good facade of making out that nothing bothers her.

Its frustration and im guilty of getting stuck in that mindset, people here are the closest that can get some kind of idea of where im coming from it is an outlet.

Ive talked to my new friends about the r/s, they said they wouldnt have talked to her on the bus. Somehow im getting better and getting over it though, the impulse was there to meet her and I didnt take it, even though she is saying and behaving exactly the way that made me feel so happy during the r/s, I find myself intentionally "damping down" this, which isnt natural.

Ive taken revenge on people in the past and it felt great, I have no remorse for the kicking in of the guy she cheated on me with, theres a line for the most passive and peaceful people. touch my family or my woman im with and the concept of civilisation, compassion and christian values have been erased from my dictionary. I have a PD too and I work hard to control my own issues, in the big picture, wishing she would suicide rather than attention seek or watching her cry (in self pity, not for what shes done to anyone else), is nothing, and just what I felt at the time (even though it is dragged up 2 months later along the lines of tabloid journalism) rather than be kept in current day context.

Deep inside I cant bring myself to do anything to her, I feel guilty for things I even shouldnt. I try and rethink all the situations I had made decisions, and I keep realising that I couldnt have actually done much better than I did, yet the end result was that I was the one carrying the hurt, and most of it being her issues with the world and others she took as an outlet on me, knowing I was the only one who would allow it. I cant even explain things to her today, despite having a new opportunity to, because it threatens her to, at best make me even more enraged by how she will respond or at worst, she would unravel and dysregulate from it. So if I want the r/s to continue, it is ground hog day all over again, carrying on as if nothing had ever happened.

ive been doing well despite it all, recovered from the help of people here, i am grateful, im also happy at the moment to have her actually spoke to her and got back in contact, but I feel theres a hidden clock in the background for when the bomb goes off again, and she infects the new circle of friends ive made and starts sabotaging anything of value to me. I want her in my life in some way, but it really has to be at arms length, I think i just have this underlying anxiety that this distance is even too close.

I do read what people say here and after time it digests and makes sense. The mind games are a waste of life but I am happy for myself to at least show her on the surface that ive changed for the better even if it does mean treating her differently than I would otherwise like to. This is a newfound route to closure, I just dont know how its going to work out and how long it will take. Asides from talking about it here, she is absent from my mind for the whole day, I have to, there are other people that rely on me who didnt break my trust and way higher on the priority list. if revenge really is part of an objective, at the moment it is at the bottom of a very long "to do" list. by the time I ever get to it, I probably wont feel the same.

I appreciate people being bluntly direct, after all, they have taken the time to care to even bother doing so. it is often the only thing that works.

Irish heritage as well Wicker Man. Cant find a better friend or a worse enemy in those genes.   :)

I dont suffer from the dysregulation that my ex did, it is psychotic rage and it is terrifying to witness. It is like watching someone who at that moment in time, doesnt even 100% grasp that you co-exist there with them. I get the same after jagermeister. Someone needed to be in control of this r/s and if you were a fly on the wall youd realise the restraint, the patience of a saint my best friend told me at the time. I knew she was ill, and my own issues made me relate. Otherwise any right minded person wouldnt put up with that for more than 5 minutes. I did better than some of her previous r/s, for instance, didnt cut into a main artery to prove their love to her.

I know this has brought out some of the worst in me, she brings out the best and worse, I dont even know how she does it, she literally is Queen of the trolls but that other side I know is a very loving caring, ultimately very hurt person herself and if I never knew and believed that part, it would have been simple to have just continued to ignore her very existence, which I did with NC. Part of what you said about feeling guilty in leaving is a big component, I know my ex knew that she was making me ill at times and depending on what state she was in, she would do her best to remedy it or she would push on further. She could create chaos and trouble, then the next moment tell me she was praying for us (knowing she had set a rolling ball in motion against me, then regretted it).

im just scared, I know that once I get myself a bit together I will accept to meet her, I just despite all that ive learned feel completely unprepared and out of my depth about how it will go, despite everything I just dont know how to draw a line under it all, block her from my phone and close the chapter. her saying "we will be together forever" haunts me and at the same time, i want to accept it, if it meant somehow reconfiguring things from the past and basing it on building up trust and respect from scratch. A chance to change the story to something more palatable than what it ended up as.

I really have no idea anymore what the heck is going on

about 50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD do. are you seeing a therapist?


post on the Bettering board. learn the tools and lessons there. work to get to steady ground.

youll be armed with knowledge and foresight, and if things dont work out, i can virtually guarantee you it will make for a much smoother landing.

they work with everyone, and theyll make for healthier relationships in the future.

I sensed this from the change in your tone and the voice in your writing.


Dream Come True's version was 'Always and Forever'.

I will be honest with you I still cannot fathom she is no longer in my life.  Trying to fill the countless hours we spent taking.  Filling the empty spaces is incredibly difficult. 

 

Dream Come True suffered from visual and auditor hallucinations, so she could disappear into herself.  I was never frighted by her rages, I knew they were driven by an all consuming fear, as was her psychotic dysregulation. (I had her by 14 inches and 100 pounds, so that helped in my 'bravery' in the face of rage) -but the hallucinations were unnerving.  I had to take a deep breath and remind myself she was still in there.

Please if you can during this turbulent time in your life stay away from the sauce and under no circumstances drink if you meet her. 

I would like to agree with once removed -see a therapist.  It helps.  My life is now a blur of therapy sessions and books on relationships.  I don't have a PD, but I have codependency at my very root.  I have grown up feeling I have broad shoulders and can accept the roll of savior with little cost to myself.  This presumption lead me to 25 years of repression which erupted claws bared and screaming in the form on an affair.

I would also like to remind you I am definitely a 'coping' model rather than the 'super man' model -not a day has gone by in which I have not only about thought about her, or grappled with the impulse to reach out to our old group of friends -'just to check on her'.  But... .as I have said before my watch is done.  My obligation is no more.

I understand utterly the 'what ifs' and the 'if onlys'.  My connection with Dream Come True was the deepest I have ever felt with another human being.  Do I wonder 'Have I spit in the eye of love?'... .Of course I do, but this is my heart speaking not my rational self.

Do I know she is drowning in life and would take me down with her?  Of course I do.  I also know when the music stopped I would have been the one left without a chair. 

She wrote me from a bar at 4am 'Remember I am young and beautiful'.  I remember reading this, thinking she was gone forever, I said to myself '... .and I am old and stupid'.  She walked through the hotel room door stumbling drunk an hour later as I was preparing to go off to work.  (As a member of the tribe, seeing the ravages of alcoholism my entire life this terrified me.  Alcohol killed both my great uncles, my grandmother, an aunt, my father succumbed, but was 'saved' by cancer... .  he couldn't drink during the treatments.  -at least I got him back for a year)

Ultimately Dream Come True and I stopped drinking for 7 months.  While drinking she had repeatedly put herself in a situation where she was in grave danger of being raped.  She could forget about us completely when she drank.


I have never felt guilty about leaving her.  I feel sincere pity for her, but there is no guilt in me.  It was kill or be killed -there was no other rational choice to be made.  There is an acronym from computer programing KISS -Keep it simple stupid. 

You owe her nothing.  Through game theory, or social exchange theory (you pick the result is the same) you should only resume contact with your ex if it benefits you.  Your relationship had ended -which, in my opinion, ends your obligation to her.  You do not have a child with her, co-own a business, there seem to be no extenuating circumstances which would obligate you to further contact.

If you have a personal need to have her in your life then this is a different story.

You will not get a bare knuckle tough love response from me -it is not my place, what is more if you are Irish then you are stubborn as the day is long and I do not want to fuel you to prove me wrong... .  What I continue to ask you is Cui Bono?

Never but never begin actions to do her harm, because you will simply be harming yourself. 


Perhaps there is a contradiction in this statement.  Once you get yourself together -truly get yourself together, you may find you do not need to meet her.  You said she brings out the worst in you -understanding this may give you the strength to save both or you from further torment.

Nothing would feel better to me right in this moment than to send a note and say meet me at PEK (Beijing Intl.)  I will be there in 15 hours... .and nothing would do me more harm.  I could be back on the path to my destruction with a text message and a plane ticket.

I am sorry you are in such turmoil right now.  You have given me insight, solace, and a shoulder to lean on over these last few weeks.  You helped me tell my story until I have begun to feel bored through my stories repetition.  Life should not be a collection of soaring highs and crushing lows -it is addictive yes, but healthy NO.

If there is anything I can do to help just ask -I can feel the pain in your writing.

I just managed to burn soup... .  Being a codependent people pleaser does have its costs... .  What kind of a dumbass can burn soup!

Wicker Man

The most powerful message youve sent in the past has been "you were both not compatible". I read the words, clear and simple, yet it takes time to accept.

and as Wicker Man says, the keep it simple stupid. I find that all these layers of complexity trying to hack through of feelings and problem solving, at the basis it is clear that it isnt a r/s that did enough to make me want to stay, it was incompatible. I think thats the closure I need, it takes away this quest to "right" the "wrongs" which is really about, hoping to salvage something that actually ended early on in those 3 years. Yes I should have just walked away then, but didnt. It would have been as easy as saying "you were not the person I thought you were, we are not right for each other". Its not that I didnt know it, but I didnt want to accept it. but it helps now to keep entrenched in my mind that I wont allow this to develop again, beyond having her a friendly text with nothing to commit myself to and side stepping the impulse to serve her needs and showing her I dont expect or will not ask her to reciprocate. She tried with the 2nd text sent and ive shown her we can be in contact but she will have to go elsewhere for that sort of need fulfillment, just like I have had to go here to deal with my emotional problems.  Im not needing therapy, (and wont use these boards for it) im fine as long as im not in these types of r/s, ive got the experience to avoid them in the future thats the main thing. Thanks once removed your words have carried a lot of strength for me, they just needed to be accepted and understood properly the contentment returning and the closure on its way, its almost tangible.  :)

It was difficult for me as well, I had an established circle of friends that had to be abandoned at the same time as going complete NC. She had infiltrated so deep into my extended life, forced herself into the center, and it was almost as if had consumed my identity in many ways. Took control. It didnt happen overnight, but it happened steadily, until you wake up one day and realise, she was sly about it. If she could unbalance my support network, it would be hard to abandon her, or so she thought. I started from scratch but the empty spaces were needed, it was like being in a hospital and needing peace and quiet, a very occasional visitor is important, but I went from having active full on social life to becoming more reliant on an xbox. Try to keep up with the cycling and sports if you feel able to, I was too fatigued mentally to do that, but the times I found the energy to was a big mood lift. Yes I thought about my ex whilst playing xbox and swimming, but I couldnt 100%, thats what is important. Just like today, Ive got a checklist of things to do, work this afternoon, exams to study for next week, a step son I need to watch over that hes not smoking cannabis on the street corners. Many heartbroken people have went on to divert that pain and achieve amazing things. I had 2 exams yesterday, and you know what frame of mind ive been, I turned my phone off, compartmentalised Medusa, crash read my textbook and got through it all listen to my music and most of all, watch this whenever I felt that urge to text https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbYkejgeAXc and   to myself, "yellow teeth"  . Medusa I wont allow to distract me to fail my studies, my non smoking drive she gets credit for though, didnt I say that im scared to stop because the last time I commited to it was the precursor to a disastrous moment? The exact thing happened again, right on cue.


The problem with BPD, or lets say at least my experience with it, my ex never witnesses unseen phenonema, I think that would have been too much to me. Her psychotic rages were as if the rage had consumed her to the extent she was capable of anything. Luckily I wasnt the focus of her rage, and regardless of being physically more capable, I let her throw the scissors and plates. I have a scar from a fragment of coffee cup that exploded nearby. I think she knew that destroying my kitchen was more hurtful than what she could do to me physically. I got my kitchen back, cooking always was and is a big part of my therapy, however much I want to revisit those times I taught her how to bake and saw her happiness, I need and enjoy harmony and cant cook when im stressed. Sorry about your soup.


alcohol was the conduit towards the cheating as well as to her unleashing the cruel things she said. Rather than openly apologise she tried to do everything but, such as "I got so terribly drunk that night", I once told her thats the thing about alcohol, its a convenient excuse for anything the next day. Alcohol didnt ruin the r/s, just like the gun doesnt kill people by itself (yes, thank god you didnt take yours to that gun range).


Apologies for that, Ive probably read someone else say it. I feel the guilt because I took on the task of rescuing her then gave up to save myself. When I started to give up before, she would tell me how much she needed me and not to let her go. So id resume the task again.


Im glad you mentioned all that because this was a big part of the NC, I sabotaged the marriage and the wish for a child. It wasnt out of feeling engulfed, which ive experienced before in previous r/s, it was because I didnt want to end up where I am now, plus those albatrosses around my neck. a wise move. Medusa in my phone book has became soothing in some way, it is leading to closure. She never texted or called at all yesterday, when we were together, by this stage of having not responded my phone would have went beserk. Im enjoying that im getting something more towards what I wanted from in the very beginning, theres nothing she can do to cause hurt anymore, the pressure is gone on both sides. She put me in a good mood with her homour and has been sweet and friendly, but ive not allowed myself to be drawn in.

The reason for my anger surfacing again, is because I realised that she was too accepting to be 'friends' again. It signals to me that whilst she wont ever admit to the things she has done, she acknowledges that I ghosted her for good reason. Otherwise she would have rightfully told me to f off. Which is what youd expect.



My ex practically begged me to "punish" her throughout the r/s. She couldnt comprehend that all the things she did I tolerated. Its why I feel guilty about going the NC route. but that approach worked, i showed her that I can, did and will walk away. It was the only sensible and mature option. 9 months is a long time, and showing her that im sorry if she was hurt by it and im happy to have her - in my life - to this limited extent, has shown that I want to forgive, for myself to get over the anger if not for anything that she may or may not feel about it. It is not an invitation to let history repeat itself. and thats the part im having to be strong to work on.


I wont ever tell you to not send that note. This recontact happened for a reason and im seeing a lot of benefits amidst the resurfacing of some emotions. but the same might not work due to the nuances of our unique circumstances. The same way you cant generalise the disorder (as ive been rightfully pointed out in the past) I can go a step further and say that you need a tailor made tool that will work for you. NC is a tool, but it only worked to an extent for me. Its a bit like a cop having a taser, told to use it when faced with an armed person. the advice is generalised. but what about when it gets used on someone with a heart condition? The tools are there to tr, but in my opinion, it is up to ourselves ultimately to find a tailor made approach to reaching the goals we want.

its not narcissism of trying to make this a perfect r/s at all costs, or even arrogance, its not liking the messenger because their wisdom constitues a threat to take away a drug that was so intoxicating, resulting in cognitive dissonance.

You mention quite often the 4am text message from the bar and from how i read you were shocked by it? I have the feeling my ex never actually cheated on me, but she enjoyed the power of making me believe she would or easily could. I wont ever know, she had some fixation about infidelity on my part and some over-riding fear that I would be the one who would do it first. i think its all linked to that base fear of abandonment, so she either pre-emptive striked but then regretted it or she invoked the fear in me to see what I would do, and I stayed with her. Whatever it is, the thing it did create was a trust-fracture that will never heal. Whatever else i tried to fix, I could never trust again, (her stalking me too). Every time she texts or speaks to me, i take a position of not believing it until ive verified it by finding facts to support it. thats not a r/s for me, and its what i went through. I believe from how you write, its likely this trust factor is what was broken as well.

I feel guilty you burned your soup due to my inability to get a grip, i feel guilty of all the people who have helped and by playing with fire, it shows as if their time has been wasted. I feel guilty for giving advice to others, then behaving myself in what appears a hypocritical way. but its all just part of this snakes and ladders game, i slid into the conflicted square, but still in the game.

The soup was fine and with a little bit of 'Bar Keeper's Friend' the pot is fine too. 

The OED defines Guilt : A feeling of having committed wrong or failed in an obligation.

You have no reason to feel guilty.  We are all here dealing with various degrees of tragedy in our lives.  We are all here to support each other and through this support find enlightenment.  In very broad strokes Buddhists believe to find enlightenment  is to find an end to suffering. 

We all offer advice we have difficulty following in our own lives.  This is part of the human condition.  I have seen obese nutritionalists, realtors drowning in mortgage debt and therapists who are trying to cure themselves.  This doesn't mean the nutritionalist, realtor and therapist can't offer helpful advice.

I find it ironic your ex destroyed your kitchen and mine broke all the tile out of her grandparent's kitchen. 

As I have said I believe I exited in the twilight of the idealization phase -so I was spared the full brunt of physical rage.  There was verbal rage a plenty, but she was never destructive in my presence.  While she was waiting for me to return and raging at me (the final 7 day rage) she did being throwing some of her grandparent's possessions out of the window --she said they were things which would not be needed when we all moved in together.  --ugh.

You have been through things I only imagined -fortunately for me I have a really vivid imagination and left her.  --This is perhaps why my recovery has been difficult, I left when things were still quite good.  I left on speculation. 

I am glad you are taking your studies seriously and not letting anything distract you to their detriment.

To my understanding the very point of this forum is to have a safe place to gain understanding of ourselves and our experiences with BPD.  There should be no feelings of shame, guilt or embarrassment in participating here.  --unless it is taking away from your studies :)


Wicker Man

I just read this and thought it might be good for you to keep in mind:

"If there is no benefit for you to remain in contact... ... ..It is a form of still using us even though we now dont get the benefits of actually being with them."

I hope you are happy and well.

--your smart ass friend... .Wicker Man

Shawnlam gave me a good point to focus on that I had sort of airbrushed away; "anxiety" as an indicator to those buzz feelings of "love" I had made the connection to. I got a buzz of the drama she used to create and that buzz was not love but a biochemical reaction that needs to be counterbalanced to a healthy baseline. Ive taken some benzos and funny enough, the "love" / "hate" is magically gone, my sleep was great, and I am not procrastinating from my studies (I couldnt focus anymore since she resurfaced). and started to ruminate about the r/s again as well as my current predicament with her.

The love (trust in her) evaporated 2months into the 3 years, I just couldnt accept it, I should have just drawn a line under it there and then, and I look up to those who had more self respect to have done so when the red flags were there and spared themselves from future agony.

She makes me feel edgy and this makes the sympathetic nervous system go into over drive. Add a caffeine addiction and other stimulants into the mix and its little wonder why those 3 years were so exciting yet cyclically exhausting. Accepting this recycle, actually, I initiated it, has partially caused this dopamine thrill seeking imbalance. Ive determined the cause and the effect and know what I need to do long term about it. (yes I will be back soon on the Learning board).

if it prompts anyone to look outside of the box if they havent done already, there is far too much on these boards of identifying "love" for their ex as the moribund component for the r/s faltering. I met my ex when I was on a cocktail of drugs myself, she just became another one to the mix, after the NC (withdrawl stage) completed, I had a relapse, but enough to make me see her for what she really is in my overall state of sobriety.

Much of what the fight has been against is the disillusionment of having to confront the idea that the person we were with was not the person we believed and/or expected them to be. Fight that disillusionment keeps the conflict ensuing, keeps the tangled thoughts holding back from recovery. Its not easy to see the situation for what it really was, it means having to justify 3 years of my life as being a partial sham, but im coming to terms with it.

almost 2 days of holding back that overwhelming urge to text, to hand over part of my self esteem. I told my ex once "i wonder if its easier to give up you or cigarettes", I want the answer to be her, as far as im concerned, yesterday i gave her up, today cigarettes, in that order. I will never touch either again. and she can regard the second ghosting as an even bigger virtual slap to the face that I wouldnt make my hands dirty in doing for real despite how much she literally begged for it. Her second text was "im having such a bad day".

sorry but after 8 months of my own whining, ive learned that im sick of hearing it from myself never mind her. I guess the cheating on me didnt lead to the long term happiness expected at the time. There was a time I would have raced to that distress call, pathetically, her Knight always historically became placed in Zugzwang by a more skilled player than I was.

but thats the problem when you are better at a game, eventually no-one wants to play with you anymore. :)

Cromwell,
I haven't followed your story other than reading this thread. Having had two marriages to BPD husbands, I thought I'd share some thoughts.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but much of what I'm reading seems to be based upon a power struggle. She made you feel "less than" and now you want to show her that you're in control and no longer are addicted to her.

This is just the sort of power play that can get you hooked back in again. You've seen her behavior over time. She's cheated on you. Real question: Don't you think you deserve to be treated better?

I, and so many other people here on these boards have fallen prey to the idea that we can rescue some sensitive soul who has been battered and betrayed and that through our love, we can once again make them whole. Reality hits. They were never whole in the first place and now, after months or years, they've dragged us down into their folly and we've lost our way.

Tme and time again we've been putting the life vest on them, only to see them cast it aside and tie bags of rocks to their ankles.We can only rescue ourselves.

Yes, you may see "potential" in this woman, but don't all of us here have a similar story? We want to help, our help is rejected, we feel hurt, we want to show them that we no longer care and that we're doing fine, but really, if we don't care anymore, why would we even seek contact again?

You know what you're getting into and the likelihood that you might be drawn back in. Is this an adventure that's worth having? And why, when you could have the opportunity to spend your emotional energy with a healthy normal woman who could love you wholeheartedly, would you focus on someone who is so broken and who has cheated on you?

Cat

Hi Cat,

I am trying hard, there is or was something about her that despite what she did, I took it as impulse driven, reading about the condition gave me more excuses for her, which may or may not be correct. At the least, they probably saved me from breaking her face for what she has done over 3 years, because I got the benefit of the doubt thrown as my own life vest.

There will never be another relationship, I saw her with fresh eyes and it was strange to feel a new emotion, that of disinterest, distrust and boredom versus the past excitement. I just wanted to try and see for myself how she would react and its made me feel better that she wanted to reconcile, be friends and Ive decided "thanks but no thanks" and can jettison her off out my life (for the second time).

I realised that I just started to completely forget her and started to enjoy life again after the healing, and seeing her again, at first never felt like it had any impact, but it was like ripping a scab off a wound, the past week has been reliving mentally the trauma, I needed to see and experience that to realise how this woman is someone toxic and no amount of trying to find some place for her in my life is going to be workable. I was searching for some kind of closure, not wanting to start a new adventure. I feel stronger to draw a firm line under this and have her exorcised out my life permanently, I know there is a good person in her, but so there is in every person, there is nothing unique about that. And you are right, I need to concentrate my energy on finding her replacement, ive been flogging a dead horse for far too long.

thank you  :)

Never get mad at someone for who they’ve always been,be upset with yourself for not seeing it sooner.

Im more than upset with myself Shawnlam but its a bit like blaming the victim of a confidence trickster. Would you tell a dementia sufferer that they should be mad at themselves for losing their life savings to someone who was a professional fraudster?

Never blame yourself for being "trusting", if I did it would sully any future relationship.

I have however stuck my head in the sand and chosen to filter out a lot of red flags. Please remember that whilst I believe in myself that she has done so many things to me, there is a very small amount of it that actually sticks in terms of her being proven guilty. She could quite easily turn around and tell anyone that I am falsely accusing her, or psychotic myself. Its not that I couldnt have made an effort to properly catch her, part of me didnt want to, I wanted to be in a r/s where there was love including trust, its just that I gave it too easily to someone who didnt respect it and took as much advantage of it as she could get away with.

So Cromwell, what do you plan to do now?

Love and light x

Hi Harley Quinn

What much is there to do but to wait until the Queen decides to grace me with her electronic presence.

im happy not to hear from her yet, its been 2nd day stopped smoking and my plan is to not give in.

Im running out of steam though, which is all to familiar of the energy sapping that went on when we were together.

I try to give her as little attention as possible, coming here has helped me feel supported but at the same time I dont know if it makes me just think of her more than I wouldnt do otherwise. Its a bit of a trade-off I think.

any suggestions?

Crom I have a suggestion one that I’m using as we speak.I don’t believe in blocking or NC personally because it drives me insane at times.I think knowing how she is,what she’s done,what she is capable of is enough to not stick my hand on the stove to see if the burner is hot.By reading your posts I think you possess this knowledge as well.My suggestion, just let things be, if she texts you and you know it’s manipulation just answer like you have been.If it’s the “hi how’s it going” just answer those in the same context.You know not to get involved sexually or in a relationship so don’t .Let me ask you, do you love her? And no not the idea of what she could be ,do you actually love her then good and bad?

I think I could have, or at least I tried to, I basically compartmentalised the heart break early on and the shock of it, because I felt there was more to the picture than a simple betrayal, and I was right.

Yet this morning I feel the thoughts are making sense, I know I could meet up with her easily, restart it all but I want to put it behind me, there is no trust that I wont ever be exposed to new trauma. In short, I wont take that risk and I dont see the point being with someone if it means being "guarded" either.

I had to get to this stage to be able to realise that it doesnt matter anymore what happened, but by holding back this impulse to text I feel stronger person for it. Ive been racking my brains of what to text her. then its like I get the messages of advice ive gathered over time from here, I dont owe her anything, not even a fake apology for ignoring her last text. (what she used to do).

I want to keep it that way, I thought about meeting her and that maybe she would hold some sort of key to taking away the pain she inflicted. I realised that in some ways by her actions she either tried to in the past in her own way, or just tried to keep me hooked in so I wouldnt leave.

The bottom line is, she has been at times a euphoric joy in my life, yet at the same time, the things she has said and done have constituted a walking nightmare, a complete health hazard, and im not about to risk or gamble that somehow everything will be different this time around in some hope of resolving some pain that I can eventually heal myself anyway.

I wish her no harm but I will never trust (her) again. She sent me humorous texts, she pours sweet words in my ears, yet I cant ever feel safe enough to embrace them for the underlying fear that I will be bitten by a snake again. I forgive her in my own way for what she did, I spent nearly 3 years figuring her out enough to know not to take it personal, but I want to get fully recovered from all this, give someone else the chance. If she was that needy for me she would be texting by now, its the same old story, she doesnt emotionally invest I would be at best - another member of her harem - to be called upon when its convenient. I see her as the "Queen", doesnt love her people but loves to call upon them to serve her when she feels the need, and im not going to be jumping anymore, im happy to have finally knocked her false crown off.

I would suggest there are any number of options, and I'd urge you to think about who she now is to you and whether you wish to have her in your life in any capacity.  When you are certain what the answer is to that, then you can consider whether that then means that you want to continue communicating with her.  My advice is that the next step would be to let her know your position and put the ball in her court. 

If for example you are absolutely sure you do not wish to rekindle a romantic relationship, now or ever, then tell her.  Should you be prepared to have something like a friendship, whether now or in the future, let her know.  You might decide that hearing from her is not serving you in your healing and want to tell her that you'd rather she didn't grace you with her electronic presence any more. 

At the moment there is no clarity for either of you.  Once you're clear on your position, make her clear and what follows will tell you anything further you then need to know.   

Love and light x

Well her ears must have been burning from this thread because she texted today, hoping I was well. I had a small chat with her and made a few jokes. but kept it all intentionally cordial but short.

I have no idea where this is headed and these cyclical feelings are scaring me.

This is the mind conflict, on the surface she is that person that I felt love for and it is triggering me to feel safe, yet what she did to me I start to try and compartmentalise away, forget. I felt this horrible temptation to think about a new r/s where the past is forgotten, built on a fresh slate from both sides, forgiveness and all that jazz. As a route to healing that anger within me at the same time having her in my life for the good feelings that she manages to induce.

Theres part of me that wants to be part of her life, start as an aquaintance with no risks attached emotionally and build the trust back. I

 felt in some way happy to be in contact, then again, I was generally happy to regardless, she seemed not as much but "again" I apparently put her in a good mood. (still a feeling of being used in some way)

but im afraid this is just the moribund nature of it all and im being, once again, idealistic and stupid.

Crom you would be stupid if you weren’t aware of it, which is not the case.Just be cautious when interacting and everything should be fine