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Hello and Happy Mother's Day to all of us Moms!

I just got home from my Mother's Day celebration and am thinking over some very serious thoughts.  I have written on this board many times, just chose a New Topic, because it sort of is a new topic, but my other one was getting really long too! 

My youngest son is in a very dysfunctional, crazy, relationship with his uBPD fiance.  My oldest son and my husband just got back from their house. 

The disrespect, inconsideration, and downright ridiculousness of what goes on there is becoming too much for me.  There is a lot that goes with this and I do not want to make this go on and on, so please feel free to ask anything you would like to, but I am just going to ask if anyone has decided for themselves to do a disconnect from the uBPD and family member who is causing all the issues. 

I know some of you have just by reading on some of the other posts and of course, that is why we talk about boundaries.  I just wondered if I could ask what made you decide this for yourself - to be the one disconnecting instead of letting the BPD people decide this for you and doing the disconnecting or NC?

Thanks,
Angie59

Hi Angie59

For me, I could never be the one to instigate NC with a child of mine. Even though things weren’t good between me and my uBPD son it felt like I would be giving up on him if I were to go NC. I decided that if it was going to happen it had to be his choice, not mine. The reason I decided that was because I thought that if I was the one who instigated it then I would be risking having the door closed forever to a relationship with my son. He would take it as confirmation of his belief that I didn’t love him. Whereas if I let him choose, I thought well, it’s his decision, my door will still be open which would give him the option of coming back to me in the future if he so chooses.

Hi Angie,

I feeling a lot of anger from your post.  I don't know what happened yesterday but try to let it go.  Your son and DIL are going to do what they are going to do, letting it upset you isn't helping, you control your emotions and I know you can get a handle on them.

Thinking about cutting your son off when you're angry, could lead to something you will regret later.  I'm glad you chose to come here to vent, that was a good idea.  |iiii

How are you feeling today? Has some time helped you cool off any?

I like what Feelingbetter had to say in her post, and I would like to piggyback on that and say I don't think that you want to throw the baby (your son) out with the bathwater (your DIL).  Maybe instead of cutting contact you lessen the contact you have with your son and his family right now? Use the time to work with your Therapist and let things cool off.

Hope today finds you feeling better,
Panda39

Good morning!

Panda39, I see what you are saying about throwing out the baby with the bath water.  What happened yesterday is that there was more than no mention of the man she went on the trip with a few weeks back.  We had Mother's Day at their house and she had to work at the bar (which is where she met him to begin with).  She said, well I still need to make M a plate. 

Well I have been biting my tongue so long over disrespectful comments like that as well as telling everyone how this one guy in particular keeps trying to take her home with him, and how she keeps telling him, no, you have a wife at home, remember?  And you have two kids at home.  No mention of my son at home waiting for her and no mention of her own kids. 

The disconnect I am trying figure out in my head is not total NC but a smaller NC regarding them not talking about their relationship in front of me. 

Panda, I feel like I am a teapot who my son keeps filling up slowly with extremely hot water and there is no more room for any more hot water (my triggers).  Although he could not help what she said yesterday, because he refuses to listen to how we feel, yet we are expected to hear her and anything she should like to say because she wants us to "accept" her as she is, he needs to see how incredibly one-sided this all is.

When do I get to show who I am and how I feel and be accepted? 

Thank you Feeling Better for your reply as well.  I do see your point and can certainly understand where you are coming with regarding your uBPD son. 

Please understand, I am grasping and searching on how to keep my own self healthy and happy while I deal with them.  It kind of seems impossible to do to me right now!

Angie,

What you are describing is a boundary and a really good one!   |iiii What is your plan to enforce this boundary?  I ask because people with BPD like to boundary bust and push our buttons. 

Panda39

Hello Panda!

I could have sworn I posted back to you, but I must have gotten interrupted or something occurred because your post looks to be the last one on here. 

Yes, I actually made a boundary, and didn't even know I did!  Kudos to me - didn't even recognize it!  LOL! 

Well, the boundary for my son would look something like this:  He usually calls most evenings on his way home from work, for instance.  So the boundary is we can talk about his day, his job, what projects he is working on, etc.  He can talk about whatever he would like to me - but no talk about the relationship with his uBPD fiancee. 

The reason I'm doing this is because it is a no win situation.  He calls and brings her into the conversation sometimes, or the kids, and I have been biting my tongue so hard over the past 4 years, I'm surprised it hasn't fallen off by now. 

Panda, why do you suppose someone can say whatever they want to say regardless if it hurts another's feelings, do whatever they want regardless of who their actions effect, speak with absolutely no filter, etc... .you get the picture; yet I need to stay quiet and keep the peace and just continue to go home after each encounter with her either crying my heart out or seething with anger.  How does this happen?

I haven't even gotten into the disrespect my son shows me.  I woke up this past Friday morning with what I am hoping was a panic attack and nothing more.  I couldn't catch my breath, started crying because I was so afraid, hands shaking, feeling flushed, then hands became tingly, and a strange feeling went through my arms and legs - very hard to describe - just like a "whoosh" feeling.  I had to cancel babysitting that day and went to my doctor.  They ran some blood work and I have to have a stress test done and a sleep apnea test.  An EKG was done at the office and only showed a fast heartbeat, other than that normal.

My son has not even asked me when the tests are scheduled, what I'm having done, how I am feeling - absolutely nothing!  I really do feel I suffered a panic attack and am leaning toward the idea that my heart is okay; hope so anyway.  However, where does this complete lack of concern come from? 

Thus, the need for some sort of disconnect from him.  As far as his uBPD goes, he can't control what comes out of her mouth, so the only thing I know to do sounds childish so I'm reaching out for other ideas if anyone has any available.  My filter in conversation with her is now gone, just as hers never was, so I've been just saying what I want lately whenever inappropriate or disrespectful remarks come about.  This then results in my son coming down on me because I was all in the wrong.  It's only okay for my son's uBPD fiancee to act this way - not me or anyone else.

So what to do there?  I don't know. 

Any suggestions?

How would you approach telling him about your boundary?

How would you handle it if during the conversation he start's talking about his marriage?

Panda39

As far as his uBPD goes, he can't control what comes out of her mouth, so the only thing I know to do sounds childish so I'm reaching out for other ideas if anyone has any available.  My filter in conversation with her is now gone, just as hers never was, so I've been just saying what I want lately whenever inappropriate or disrespectful remarks come about.  This then results in my son coming down on me because I was all in the wrong.  It's only okay for my son's uBPD fiancee to act this way - not me or anyone else.

Hi Angie-
This looks like classic drama triangle dynamics and you are part of it - even if you are not aware of that. There is no winning on this triangle. Every role leads to "victim" and when you engage in it, that is how you are feeling.

Yes, the rules are different. These were also the rules I grew up with having a BPD mother and father who stepped in as her rescuer no matter what. This is the triangle and if you say or do something that is taken as against your DIL, your son will step in to rescue her ( against you) no matter what.

Disconnect from it all if you wish, or get into the issue with them, but either way, the risk of losing your relationship with your son altogether is there. I naively jumped into this and reacted to my mother, saying what was on my mind, setting boundaries in an inexperienced way ( I did not have the tools here or the understanding of the dynamics) and the cost was my relationship with my father. This is not what I wanted,  but no matter how unreasonable or abusive my mother was to him or her own children, he took up for her. This was their drama.

Personally I would not tolerate verbal abuse from them, but having expectations that your son will somehow care about your medical tests, or your feelings in this situation is probably unrealistic. A BPD relationship takes a lot of mental energy. Your son is driven by his own dysfunction in this. My father had only so much mental energy to go around. I made this about me, but it never was in the first place. Your son's lack of concern for your health is not about you. He is likely overwhelmed with his own situation.

I think it is good for you to practice what you might say about a boundary here first before you say or do it. I don't regret that I stood up for myself with my parents but I do regret that I did it before I knew better how to do it. If I was not so reactive to what they said, if I did not take it personally, if I understood the pattern of dysfunction ( drama triangle) and examined my part in it, I may have been able to do it better and in a way that didn't add fuel to the drama fire.

When you lose your filter with what you say, react, take your son's actions personally- you are adding fuel to the drama.

A first lesson on this board is "stop the bleeding"- this does not mean allowing someone to abuse them, but it means controlling your reaction to the situation- so you can think it through. It was hard for me to see my part in my relationship with my parents when I was feeling so hurt and upset, like you are now. But it was important to see my part in it- so I could navigate staying off the drama triangle.

Self care is key- get rest, take care of yourself. If your son calls, make this about you, not him for now. "Son, I am not feeling well at the moment and need to rest. I love you and will talk to you later".

A good acronym to remember is HALT - hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I could add others- not feeling well, sad, upset. These are cues that you are not up to dealing with someone else's drama and need to take care of yourself. It is best not to make big actions or decisions, like talking back with no filter, or making a big change in the relationship. It is enough to tell your son you need some rest if he calls and leave it like that for now. To me, it is huge that your son calls as often as he does. It means he still wants a relationship with you.

Excellent questions Panda.  Unfortunately I don't have the answer to any of them. 

Thank you Not Wendy and Feeling Better for both of your responses as well.  Since my brain feels like scrambled eggs right now, I don't know what else to say for myself at this point. 

Hi Angie.  What do you think that scrambled eggs feeling is related to? 

I think I used to experience something similar (still do but rarely now).  My head would get all buzzy and thoughts would go so fast it was like they weren't even there.  For me it was associated with fear of what i was thinking or talking about.  It was my brains defense mechanism kicking in when I was working on my own issues, be it in therapy or here.

Do you think some of that is going on for you?  It would be normal in a sense if it were.  This is very tough stuff you are dealing with.  Not just with your son and STB DIL, but with your own self as well.  Take it slow and don't forget to breathe.

Angie,

Here are some links about boundaries that might help you... .


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Panda39

Panda, thank you for the links.  I usually print things out and keep them all in a folder to read over and then to have available to read again as things come up. 

Harri, not sure what the scrambled eggs feeling in my brain is, but you brought up some good points.  It could be fear because I do have an anxiety disorder and further tests regarding my heart has not been set up yet; I am fearful of possible scary results.

I guess when I originally said it, I meant that all of the things you go through, sometimes many things in one day is so mind-boggling and so much to sort through and try to understand, that it makes your brain feel like mush!  Not much better of a description than scrambled eggs I guess.  Just feeling like you have exhausted your brain with it all and it seems there are no good or positive answers whichever way you look.  I'm just mentally and physically drained at this point and knowing that I don't know what to do next is definitely fearful.

I also feel when I talk to my son I will be being "fake."  By that I mean, "Hi honey, how are you doing? (kiss on the cheek, hug), did GS2 eat breakfast yet?  How has his cough been?  Have a good day at work." 

No one ever speaks of the big white elephant in the room.  Do you know what I mean?

Truthfully Angie, it would piss me of to no end of one of my kids were on a marriage like you describe.  That would be me. 

However, short of cutting off my son or daughter and my hypothetical grandkids, there is only so much I would be able to control,  and it wouldn't be their marriages.  It would be me.  My choices. 

As messed up as this is,  you have the choice: to radically accept your son's choice, as messed up as I agree it is,  or cut them off, which is what I think you are positing (correct me if I am wrong). This isn't black and white. You can certainly maintain some amount of emotional distance while maintaining a relationship with you son. Sometimes the ball is on our court without being served.  To repeat, it would kill me to see either of my kids like this,  especially given that their mom left me for another man.  At one point, however.  I was willing to put that aside,  as much as it killed me emotionally,  for the sake of my kids.  I know that this isn't easy.

I think it is good that you have identified your feelings that your brain feels like scrambled eggs. For many of us who are caretaker types, we are so tuned into other people's feelings that we ignore ours, until they are experienced as brain is mush, or anxiety. These are signals to tune into yourself- and take care of you. Although you are understandably concerned about your son, his issues are his, and your feelings are yours. They say on an airplane- put your oxygen mask on first.

You can take some time to care for yourself without completely cutting off your son and his family. They may not like it, and even get angry if you are not available for them, but that is their part. I think it helps to identify your own boundary to yourself. What is you and what is them. Your feelings, your health, your anxiety- is you. Your son's marriage and the problems he may be experiencing is him. Stay focused on what is yours and if you need some rest or time to think simply say it.

A good rule to consider is to not use "you" statements when speaking to your son and to use "I" statements. This involves less drama. It may feel un-natural or fake at first, but it isn't being fake, it is changing your focus and with practice it becomes more natural. Let's say you are angry or upset, or not feeling well and he wants you to babysit. You have some choices:

You go ahead and babysit, but you don't really want to - you are saying yes when you mean no. That is not being truthful to yourself, but you do it out of fear. It is the easiest way to avoid conflict and not deal with the fear of the consequences- their anger and perhaps threats not to let you see the kids. In this sense you are trying to control their responses.

You say " I don't want to babysit because you are inconsiderate of me and my feelings are hurt". That "YOU" puts you into persecutor role on the drama triangle with them.

You say " I am not available to babysit as I have plans today" What plans they ask? ( well not their business, your time is your time, but you might say) " a meeting, plans with your father, plans to rest today" or whatever it is.

Which answer is being fake? The first one- we are being fake when we agree to something when we really don't want to do it. The other two are not being fake but one fuels the drama more than the other. Choosing the one with the "I" statement may not feel natural to you if you are not used to speaking that way but it isn't being fake.

So there is an elephant in the room, but whose elephant is it? It is your son's elephant. You can learn to leave it alone. There is a saying "not my circus, not my monkeys". It isn't your circus and you don't need to join it.

The drama triangle has been a useful model for me. Dysfunctional relationships follow this pattern. Two people feel more stable when they are bonded against a third. I observed that my parents needed a "persecutor". My mother would take "victim" mode and my "father", her rescuer. The role of the persecutor could vary- it could be one of their children, a health care helper, a relative, a friend. Didn't matter. Their relationship seemed to seek out a persecutor to take the focus off their own issues and on to someone else to stay stable.

The triangle was not just them. Sometimes my mother would vent to me about a sibling, trying to bond with me "against" that sibling. But once on the triangle, the roles can shift and I knew it was only a matter of time before I became the persecutor in the triangle and she'd bond with the sibling.

I think this could help you with a boundary with your son. A boundary isn't something we put on another person but on us. A boundary for you could be recognizing when you are being "invited " on to the triangle. It it tempting to jump in when someone is venting to you- because we think we have a chance to help. But if we know where this "invitation" leads, we can work on avoiding it.

The "invitation" is venting. Rarely my father would vent to me and I would open up about my feelings about my BPD mother. I would feel momentarily validated. What would happen sooner or later is that he would report everything I said to my mother and the two of them would bond together against me. I eventually recognized that, to stay stable, they needed a persecutor and saw this as an invitation to that role.

How did I enforce a boundary? I had to learn to recognize what was venting and what was reporting news. It is very hard to avoid speaking about a family member altogether. Your son is married to his wife and she is a part of his life. I think it would be hard to have a boundary on him not mentioning her at all.

I learned this later after my father passed away, so I can not apply it to their relationship. My mother still has BPD and still "triangulates" people. She would call and vent about a sibling. So my response ( note the "I" statement ) was "Mom, I feel uncomfortable speaking about S behind his back" and then change the subject. Now this doesn't mean she respected the boundary right away but I just kept repeating it till she got the message. I also use a pleasant and not emotional tone when I say it. I still ask about the sibling- such as "have you heard from S?" "How does S like the new job?".  This takes practice to discern when we are simply exchanging news about family members or triangulating. I also don't vent to her.

If your son is venting to you, he is inviting you on to the drama triangle. You may be tempted to think " this is my chance" but the drama triangle is circular. It goes nowhere. Yet, when you reject his wife altogether, you are rejecting a part of him. If he tells you his wife took the kids to a birthday party. Well great, that isn't venting. You can say something like " oh that sounds fun". If he says "wife is off seeing another man" you can say " Son, I love you, and I am sorry this is hurtful to you, but I trust you are able to handle this". ( these are "I "statements) This lets him know that you are letting him fix this issue.

I want to have NC most of the time when it comes to my uBPD mother. It is so difficult and affects my personal life and other relationships way too much. I just keep feeling the FOG and can never do it. Unofficially my uBPD mother and my brother, sister, and father go without contact for a few months on average.

Hi Angie.  I am glad to read this thread which is aimed more at what you can do for yourself and your needs rather than trying to change your son and future DIL.  Good work Angie!

I just want to make sure I understand what this post is about so I can support you better.

Are you talking about cutting all contact with your son, future DIL, and grandkids?

Or are you saying you do not want to talk about his relationship with STB DIL?  I remember from your previous posts you saying your son does *not* talk about issues with his fiancee with you but that he talks with someone else who passes that info on to you.  Is that still the case?  Who is passing along the info?

If you are not cutting all contact, are you still watching G2 Thursday and Friday every week (health permitting of course)? 

If you do watch G2 at your sons house will you commit to not looking through their personal things (receipts, tablets, notes in margins of books, etc)?  That seems to be a great source of your difficulty with keeping yourself in a good state of mind to maintain a relationship with your son and grandkids.  As tempting as it may be do not go looking for confirmation of your fears.

A big part of making this relationship work will be separating yourself from your son by recognizing what is yours and your business and what is not (much as Notwendy talked about and we have been discussing for a while now).  We can continue to help you with that.   

Hi Turkish!

I needed to hear those validating words from someone regarding how they would feel if one of their kids were in this kind of marriage/relationship.  Yes, it does really make me angry and you made me feel that it is not me overreacting or just being a protective mom.  With all that has gone on, I don't know how I could even begin to question my feelings in this whole mess, but I do sometimes.  You helped me so much as one parent to another and I can't say thank you enough for that.

I also understand that part about it not being all black or white but finding an in-between.  I want that too, but I think we are both so angry at this point and I think we are pointing the finger at each other with anger, when the source of the anger is not even being acknowledged.  I know that probably sounds confusing.  My son, for the last few weeks, has been carrying around this huge chip on his shoulder and has been very short and not himself at all toward me especially but also his brother and dad.  None of us know of anything we did, except for me.

I turn around and then get angry right back at him with a cold shoulder, or little conversation.  My son's uBPD fiancee does not appear to be suffering any of these consequences and she is the whole cause of this! 

I can't make sense out of it all. 

Hello MissAlwaysWrong!

I don't think we have met yet on this board and I thank you for your reply.

It must be very hard for you to deal with your uBPD mother.  I really get the FOG.  It is hard to find your way out and I'm still trying desperately now to do that without much luck.  I think my son lives in Fear of his uBPD fiancee and feels an obligation to her and his family at the same time.  Not sure where the guilt comes from but I think it most likely is coming from his fiancee. 

I feel caught up in the FOG because I am in Fear for him and what has been happening to him mentally.  I can tell it is taking a huge toll on his mental state as I'm sure you can relate to as well. 

Well, we may not have all the answers, and may not always do things right, but we can hang in there together and keep trying.   

Angie

Hi Harri!

No, I never want to cut all contact with my son and grandson.  Perhaps I came across that way because of all the anger, but that is certainly not what I want.

My son does not talk about his fiancee much at all with me because he knows that if he does, we will get back into the circle of me saying how I feel about an instance, a remark, or whatever, and he will end up defending her and around and around we go again.  Yes, you are correct Harri.  The person you are talking about is my SIL who lives in Florida.  We are all extremely close to her (we just call each other sisters) and she is Godmother to my son with the uBPD fiancee.  He will make comments to her such as, "I don't know why my mom gets so upset about... .," or "I hate when my mom is mad at me.  She does not understand that all (the BP) wants is for her to like her.  Then my sister puts in her two cents of it all, but it is like he is getting points across through her to get back to me because he knows her and I talk on a daily basis and she will probably tell me what he had to say. 

This evening my son and I had a discussion about how hard it was getting on his Dad and I because of the long days (usually 10-12 hours a day) on Thursdays and Fridays.  As of this moment, we are still doing that because we cannot come up with an alternative.  The idea of bringing GS2 to our home is simply not going to work because of the third hand smoke in the house.  He said coughs way too much after he has been with us for a day and gets up at night and they have to use his inhaler. 

I would never do anything that would make my GS2 ill, of course.  So, best bet sounds like, if you feel this is truly why he is coughing so much and especially at night, then bring him to the doctor!  See what the doctor thinks and being a pediatrician, they will most likely tell them any exposure to smoke, be it second hand or third hand or whatever is not good for them.  Thus, him coming here for babysitting would be out. 

You are absolutely right.  The looking around or seeing what is on the tablet that GS2 uses to watch his Daniel Tiger show is not in our best interest.  I asked my son's uBPD fiancee outright about the poetry books and said, I notice you leave a lot of these poetry books lying around.  Is it okay if I read them?  I see you have some things written in the margins and did not want to read them without asking first in case they were personal.  She said there was no problem with me reading them at all and she didn't care if I read what was written in the margins by her at all. 

However, the tablet is a different story Harri.  Our GS2 is allowed to use the tablet, again for his favorite tiger show.  It is a big surprise and a big deal to us whenever we hear, "Uh oh, Paw Paw... .and he brings the tablet to my husband to "fix" for him because he is on a page with nude pictures of his mother. 

Feeling pretty down, lost, and not even angry anymore.  Just feeling defeated by the whole thing. 

Thanks Harri for being there and listening.

Angie

Hi Angie- I would be upset as well and yet, my advice comes from the place of having been on the drama triangle with my parents as an adult, and observing my ailing father being mistreated by my BPD mother. It may not be exactly the same as seeing a child in the same situation, but at that point in his life, he was elderly and ill, and in ways, our roles had changed to me feeling protective of him. My attempts to help as a daughter were often twisted and thwarted by BPD mother.

I felt many of the emotions you are feeling - like anger, being upset, feeling like my whole relationship with my father was changed by his relationship. We did have a parent- child relationship when I was growing up, and I consider this bond to be very special and it was- even when I married, had children, and my children were close to him. Yet, my BPD mother was able to change all that. I was stunned and shocked. I learned that this also happened with his own family- his own mother- and I felt sad for her.

I have only stepped into this thread to point out the drama triangle because I wish I had known the potential results of my stepping in on it. It added fuel to the fire. I don't know if it would have salvaged my relationship with my father to know this ahead of time, but I do feel that participating in it made it worse and it has helped me to recognize when it is happening with my mother and other situations.

You've identified this triangulation in your response to Harri:

My son does not talk about his fiancee much at all with me because he knows that if he does, we will get back into the circle of me saying how I feel about an instance, a remark, or whatever, and he will end up defending her and around and around we go again.  Yes, you are correct Harri.  The person you are talking about is my SIL who lives in Florida.  We are all extremely close to her (we just call each other sisters) and she is Godmother to my son with the uBPD fiancee.  He will make comments to her such as, "I don't know why my mom gets so upset about... .," or "I hate when my mom is mad at me.  She does not understand that all (the BP) wants is for her to like her.  Then my sister puts in her two cents of it all, but it is like he is getting points across through her to get back to me because he knows her and I talk on a daily basis and she will probably tell me what he had to say. 



The first triangle in this statement is: your son, you and his fiancee. There are three roles on the triangle- victim, persecutor, and rescuer, but all roles are dysfunctional in this drama. Your son brings up his fiancee. You respond negatively. To your son- the fiancee becomes the victim. You become her potential persecutor, and he steps in to defend her ( he is her rescuer).

Son then vents to his godmother. ( he is in "victim" mode at this point- "I don't understand how my mother... .). Then sister puts her 2cents in - and takes on a rescuer mode- either in relationship to him or to deliver the news to you.

When you relate to your son, there is a third person involved- the fiancee or your sister. This is triangulation. It may actually be a "normal" pattern in your family. It is in mine- so much that I didn't notice it as it felt normal, but it is actually dysfunctional as it increases drama.  My goal was not to cut off contact with my family members but to change the pattern of my interactions so there was less drama with them in my own relationships. I hope it can help you as well.

How would you do that? The next time your son mentions the fiancee, don't respond with an emotional statement. This may feel dishonest to you. Most likely you do feel something and it isn't pleasant, and you can have your feelings but know that sharing them with your son may not lead to the kind of relationship you want with him.

I would be disgusted by the pictures on a GS tablet. The solution if parents want to have adult content on their tablet is to not share it with a child. I know there is no control over this outside your home, but is it possible for you to have a tablet at home for the grandkids? Then, you can put theirs away when they visit and they can use that.

I wish I could tell you why a decent person would seemingly be so blind to the actions of someone like your son's fiancee but I don't know and I don't understand how my father could overlook some of my mother's behaviors. His family wasn't like her. I do know that they were a good influence on me, as well as other mothers who did role model more appropriate behavior for me. It's OK to have your own rules in your own home about the tablet without saying anything bad about the parents. Taking away the tablet would probably be seen by the child as punitive, but getting to play with his own special tablet ( and doing other things too) at grandparents could be something he would look forward to.

Can someone please remind me why a sit down heart to heart conversation with my son's iNFO fiance is a bad idea?

Hi Angie!

Reasoning with someone with BPD is not generally something that works out well.  You sitting down with her and speaking your mind about the situation at hand will not solve any issues, and instead will likely create more issues than you already have.  In situations like this, it is typical for the pwBPD to feel as though you are attacking them and they will react as such, even if your conversation is well-meaning.  She may even act as though things are totally fine during the conversation itself.  However, she likely will then go back to your son and tell him that you verbally attacked her/criticized her/whatever she may feel, and may even tell him that you said things that you didn't actually say in an effort to paint you black.  Clearly, this will then create a rift between you and your son (who has made clear in past situations that he will protect her), and widen the rift between you and her. 

It doesn't make sense to create a new situation in which this cycle can perpetuate.  This falls right in line with the drama triangle that has been discussed in this thread bu Notwendy and Harri.  If you have this conversation with your son's fiance, you put yourself into the persecutor role, she will become the victim and your son will become the rescuer.  Anything you can do to stay out of the triangle is best, but putting yourself into a position where you will automatically be the persecutor is not a good idea.  Don't start a new drama triangle - stay off the ride altogether.  You should probably practice medium chill with her whenever possible.  I think doing this not only will help your relationship with her and with your son, but will also help your anxiety.  I know it doesn't sound that way right now (I get it - this whole thing feels like a problem that you want to be able to fix it and feel better, I'm the same way.  But trust me when I say, you can't fix this), but once you effectively handle a couple situations in this manner you will see that the drama doesn't spiral and things are calmer and more manageable. 

Do you mean uBPD fiancé? If so... .

Because uBPD = potentially a serious  mental illness.

Why do you think having a sane conversation with someone with a serious mental illness (insane person) would have a positive outcome?

Hello Learning to Thrive and thank you for your reply.  First of all, the iNFO part of my post was a mistake, but not on my part.  Something was off kilter today with my computer or the site or something was not right because I tried putting in uBPD and it kept coming out as iNFO.  I don't know the cause of this but I know what the correct term is - it was simply a glitch somewhere.

That being said, I don't know why I think that having a sit down talk with my son's uBPD fiancee would work.  Still a glimmer of hope maybe?  A piece of me still in denial that he is involved with someone that has put us through so much and maybe it is me making too much of things?  I don't have an answer for you as to why I was thinking of that.

Problem may be solved now anyway.  I have been biting my tongue over the last 4 years with my son and his uBPD fiancee, been taken advantage of with the grandchildren, been blamed when the blame was misplaced to me and should have been her, inconsideration, disrespect, tons of hurt feelings and tons more of tears.  Today, I felt like I wasn't even in control of myself anymore.  I literally felt that I was standing there when she and my son got home from work and some other me stepped out of my body and just went ahead and said my piece. 

She said and said practically nothing.  I wasn't very nice.  My son just keep asking me to stop yelling and please lower my voice - anger was out of control for me.  I don't know what the future now holds for my relationship with my grandkids, son and her and her family.  In spite of the uncertainty of all of this, I do not feel bad for what I did and said.  I do not feel guilty.  I would not take back one word of it.  I really feel stronger and quite relieved.  I always knew if something like this happened, then I had to be ready for the consequences.  Whatever they end up being, it will be hard, I'm sure, but I know I will be okay. 

Sometimes when you keep all of that anger inside of you, one day the lid just pops off and that's what it did today.  Such a shame, but my son is so ready to lay blame on me - the drama triangle as some of you explained so well to me thank you Collected Chaos and Not Wendy).  She was the "victim" today, I was the persecutor, and he was the rescuer.  I have now removed myself from that triangle and am going to try with all my might to never engage again in it.  I knew I was going to be a part of it with the confrontation took place, but the anger of all of this craziness pent up inside and made to keep quiet and all the &#$( that went with it was too much to take anymore. 

Just thought I would post this to see if anyone had anything to comment, add to, etc... . 

Thanks once again for letting me vent.
Angie

Not the choice I would have made.  But what's done is done and your right there will be consequences for your actions, some that you may regret later.

Panda39

Having a heart to heart talk doesn't work - as CollectiveChaos stated, reasoning with an unreasonable person doesn't usually work. In a heart to heart you are hoping the person will see your point of view. I don't think a person with BPD can do that, especially when  being faced with something they may have done to hurt the other person.

PwBPD have trouble managing their own uncomfortable feelings. A heart to heart involves understanding the other person's feelings. If they can't manage their own, then they can not manage anyone else's.

There are two mechanisms that interfere with the ability to "hear" another person's hurts. One is projection. If they feel uncomfortable, they project that on to you. The other is denial. They have such a fragile sense of self that anything that feels threatening to that self, may not register with them.

The likely outcome of a heart to heart is for them to feel like a Victim and then lash out at you. This leaves you feeling hurt as well. Personally, my own opinion is that I think the preferred role in the triangle for someone with BPD is victim. If you are hurt, you present yourself as victim and that competes with their preferred role.

I understand where you are coming from with your anger. I did that as well with my BPD mother. My father was dying, and I was distraught and had completely had it with her. Being that I was not feeling emotionally strong at the time I had a short fuse and let loose and yelled at her. Yes, I meant it, and I don't regret that I stood up to her, but I do wish I had known about the drama triangle before I did it.

Yelling at a person with BPD is like - peeing in the wind. It all bounces off them and flies back at you. This is again because of their tendency to use projection and denial. As you could have predicted, she went into victim mode and my father jumped into rescue her and was angry at me. My mother was angry and vengeful for some time after that.

I get that in the moment, getting this anger off your chest feels good. It felt good to yell at this person who had mistreated me. But it didn't work, because ultimately none of it registered with her. She projected it.

I had to learn a different way to deal with her if I was to continue a relationship with her. Using the tools on this board, learning boundaries and being able to manage my own feelings better ( this does not mean being a doormat to her but learning to pay attention to when I begin to feel resentful and then manage that by taking some space from her, learning to say no and not fear her responses).

Your son's fiancee is in victim mode now, and your son is her rescuer. I don't know what they will do- she will be angry for a while. They may or may not come around and when is hard to tell. I think for now, the fact that you lost it shows a lot of built up resentment. Take care of yourself. We are all human, and hopefully you won't get to your breaking point next time.

Hi Angie59,


Four years is a long time to be dealing with a situation you experience as quite unpleasant.

When you started this thread you said:

When you consider your own behavior that you described in your last post, do you consider what you did respectful? There is a fine line between being assertive and being aggressive.


Perhaps it can help to ask yourself some questions:
- What is your long-term goal in your relationship with your son and your grandchildren (and also his fiancée)?
- Do you believe that your latest actions have contributed in a positive manner to achieving your long-term goals?
- Do you believe the way you expressed yourself to your son and his fiancee was in line with the values you deem important?

We have an article here about ending the cycle of conflict, I encourage you to take a look at it:
Ending The Cycle of Conflict (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict)

No matter how your son's fiancée behaves, it takes two to tango and you're definitely also engaging in the tango here. The article talks about commitment:

Would you say you are committed to stop making things worse? Are you willing to explore new ways of communicating with your son and his fiancee? There are structured communication techniques described on this site that can help you express and assert yourself to people with BPD in a way that minimizes the likelihood of further conflict and drama while maximizing the likelihood of you achieving your long-term goals. I am talking about techniques such as S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N... Are you familiar with these techniques?

Are you willing to practice alternative responses ahead of time? If the answer is no, that is fine too, but I think it might help to ask yourself what you are willing to do since the only person you can truly assert control over is you.

You can read more here:

S.E.T. - Signal Support, Demonstrate Empathy, Offer Truth (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0)

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. - Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Stay Mindful, Appear Confident, Negotiate (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0)

Especially D.E.A.R.M.A.N. is designed to express needs for change in a constructive and respectful manner:

Hello everyone!

Panda, I am somewhat taken aback by your response, to be honest.  I was under the impression that this was a place where you could air your feelings, vent, admit anger and talk about things when they go haywire.  You said not the choice you would have made.  Perhaps you can handle anger better than I can, or perhaps you are able to take more than I can.  I'm not sure what it is, but I am surprised by your answer because in sharing what happened, I felt that you became my prosecutor, judge and jury all in one with a guilty verdict!  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, I don't know anymore.

Thank you NotWendy for all of your information.  I read over it and plan to read it again and again when my mind is in a better place.

Thank you also Kwamina for your response.  I don't think of my behavior as a respect/disrespect thing in the confrontation I had with them.  I have friends that I have been with in excess of 35-40 years and I know what it means to show respect to people.  I was also taught when growing up.  However, when you show respect to certain people (my son and his uBPD) and you continue to over and over for 4 solid years and get nothing, and I mean literally nothing in return, it gets kind of old.  So if what it seems I did was disrespectful, I think I can understand for myself why.  It doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.  I have never in my life ran into a person who takes so much mental work to just even get along in a superficial way!  This is now bleeding over into my physical well-being as well as mental. 

To sum it up, I am now not viewing this board (and this is not for everyone that has replied to me by any means), as a place that is supportive.  I feel like the victim here in a sense that I blew my top after all the things I have been through with this person (including now knowing for a fact that she is cheating on my son), and know for a fact that she is working in the porn industry, and know for a fact that she is causing damage to her children, and know for a fact that she has filed false reports to the State for aid, and know for a fact that she will never treat us as we deserve to be treated - not asking for much here, just as her fiancee's parents and treated with respect and consideration. 

Yes, Panda, I know there will be consequences to pay.  I don't know what those consequences are.  I do know it has taken a toll on not only my mental health but my physical health and I had to let off steam.  Was it doing perfectly?  No.  Was it done by the books?  No.  It was done as a human being who has had her fill of all of this and of working so hard for the past 4 years receiving nothing in return.  That's what is all sums up to.

I understand how you are feeling- as if you are not supported. I went to counseling to learn to deal with my parents, and then also to 12 step co-dependency groups. I had hoped to feel supported, after all, I was the "victim" of abuse on the part of my parents. However, instead of consoling me, both the counselor and my 12 step sponsor and the group turned the mirror on me. They pointed out my role in the dysfunction and how I was interacting on the drama triangle with my parents and adding to the dysfunction by my own reactions.

I felt hurt and angry and not supported. It didn't seem fair. My mother's behaviors were over the top and I am a nice person. I don't behave like her. I believe that you don't behave like your son's fiancee.

But I wanted something to change and the first message was that the only person I could change was myself. Whenever I brought up an issue with someone else, they held the mirror up to me. Ouch- but I stuck with it. I figured I would give these people a chance after all, my way wasn't working so why not try what they said? I could always go back to doing things my way if I wanted to. Some of what they said to me was similar to the responses you have had on this thread after you got upset with your son and his fiancee.

In time, and with practice, I began to see the results of learning this new way to deal with the dysfunctional people in my life. It wasn't being a doormat but learning to hold boundaries and respond from a place of calm rather than resentment and anger. It wasn't that I didn't feel resentment and anger, but I learned ways to deal with my feelings better. I didn't get the chance to interact with my father with these new behaviors but I still am in contact with my mother. Yes, she is still dysfunctional and I have a difficult time in her presence- I fully admit that, but our relationship is much better than it ever was now that I know how to best interact with her, while still having my boundaries.

When I think of the people who helped me to do this, it isn't not feeling supported. I realized they cared enough about me to lead me to make positive changes- even if it made me feel uncomfortable. Had they consoled me- supported my point of view, I would not have ever seen the ways I could change and nothing would have changed. My mother is not going to change. I realize it was a form of tough love, but it was love in the sense that they didn't leave me stuck in my feelings of being wronged. Responding to others from this place is not very effective.

I know how you are feeling because I felt that way too. However ,I hope that one day you will see the different kind of support in these responses- from people who have been in your shoes interacting with a BPD person. Sometimes it isn't possible to see our part in things. For me, the drama triangle was "normal" - I grew up with it and it felt normal- until someone pointed it out to me. I may have been a victim of abuse from my mother but they would not let me stay in that feeling for long as it was disempowering.

Hi Angie,

I don't believe anyone is asking you to be perfect. You have received support and advice here from some of the very best bpdfamily has to offer. Looking back through your threads I see a lot of evidence of you being supported as a person. Yet when looking at your own behavior, it would be remiss of us not to point out where you could possibly make some improvements which could benefit you in the long-run.

We have members who've been dealing with BPD family-members for decades and they are posting from a place of experience. BPD is a very challenging disorder and none of us are born with the skills to deal with it. This is something we all have to learn and on this board we can learn from each other, if and when we are willing too learn. There is often no better teacher than experience and the good thing about this board is that we can not only learn from our own experiences, but from the collective experiences of the entire membership.


I think we all can understand where you were coming from, frustration when dealing with difficult people is quite common. What I'm trying to point out is, that although letting of steam is understandable and can feel good in the moment and shortly thereafter, in the long-run it might not be in your best interest. No matter how difficult you believe your son's fiancée is, you cannot control her behavior nor make her change if she does not want to change. What you can change is your own behavior and how you respond to her.

Based on your posts I believe you really care about your son and your grandchildren and want the best for them. The reality of the matter is that he's an adult in this relationship, this might be an unpleasant reality for you, but it nevertheless is still the reality. The resources on this site can help you navigate your way through this reality if you are willing to study them and apply them over and over again. This is something that takes a lot of time and practice and that's why there is so much focus on practicing alternative responses ahead of time.

What's done is done is indeed true. On this board we are not focused on the past, except to learn from it so we can do better in the future. All our experiences are potential learning experiences and present us with opportunities to grow and heal if we are open to it.


I believe this is new information you have not shared before. How do you know these things for certain?


In what ways do you feel she is treating you as parents without respect and consideration? If you want to express a need for change in the relationship, communication techniques such as S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N. can potentially be very helpful in future interactions with your son and his fiancee.


Dealing with this for four years is a long time and it is very clear you have a lot of pent-up anger and resentment. Anger and resentment are feelings many of our members have dealt and often still deal with. Even so, do you feel like letting off steam really is something people have to do or perhaps also something people can choose to do or not do? Are there perhaps steps you can take to channel all this pent-up anger and resentment differently in a way that might help your preserve the relationship with your son and grandchildren?

Hi Angie,

I'd like to echo Kwamina in this specifically:


I completely understand that letting off steam can make you feel better.  However, in doing so you are making others feel worse (your son, his fiance, and likely your grandkids if they were in earshot).  While I don't think that is your intention, it is the reality.  Just because she is someone you don't like/don't agree with/don't respect doesn't mean that it is okay for you to reciprocate the behavior you feel you are receiving.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  There are ways to voice disagreements without resorting to anger or yelling.  I think the advice you've been given regarding SET and DEARMAN is very good - it took me a long time to get it right with these techniques (lots of trial and error), but I have found that practicing them over and over again (and even being mindful of my interactions with non-BPD family and friends and seeing that those relationships followed these same patterns without my realizing it) eventually gave me less anxiety and a better way to control my interactions with my BPD mother and ensure things weren't getting out of hand.  There are also lots of things you can do physically and mentally to decompress and ensure you don't "blow up" later on down the road.  These can include therapy, exercise, or other hobbies to clear your head - once you take your mind off of the situation for a bit, it will likely make it easier for you to see the realities with a fresh set of eyes.

I also want to echo what NotWendy said regarding being supported.  Her story is much like mine in that when I first learned about BPD, it was hard for me to swallow that I was also the problem, and that the only way my relationship with my mom could change was if I changed.  It's hard to see fault in yourself, especially when it's so clear that the other person is a real problem.  However, I can only control and change myself - what my mom chooses to do with that is on her.  If your son and his fiance choose to disregard your feelings/not take your advice/make their own decisions that you don't agree with, that is not something you can control or change. 

While you say you are just venting, you are also specifically asking us for advice in your posts, and that is what we are doing.  Just saying "Oh that's terrible" isn't constructive and doesn't help you, aside from maybe making you feel a little better.  We are all giving you advice that you can use to try to actively better the situation you are currently in.  I'm sorry that you feel like this isn't supportive. 

I think at this point you have a choice.  You can either continue to hold onto this resentment and slowly break apart any remaining relationship you have with your son, or you can take a look in the mirror and try to figure out what you can do differently to preserve that relationship.  And at the end of the day, even if both options result in you not having a solid relationship with your son, I can guarantee that you will feel better about the second option because at least then you tried.

Good morning to all!

I took a bit of a break from the forum.  We had some out-of-town company since Saturday and just left this morning.  Things have been pretty chaotic, but in a good way.

I re-read the recent replies and gave things a second look now that my temper and anger is not as high as it was when I first wrote my replies.

My way of handling anger does need to be handled differently and I am willing to work on and learn (and I emphasize learn), how to handle it differently and more constructively. 

Please know, this is not a defense for my expressing anger as I did to my son and his uBPD fiancee last week.  I came from a very strong family background where anger was handled in the way I am repeating as an adult.  Whenever someone in my family (consisting of a single mom, grandparents (her mother and father) who my brother and I lived with along with my mom of course, and even a great-grandmother all under the same roof. 

Here is what happened when someone became angry with another person in the home:  The angry person yelled loudly at the person making them angry, told them exactly what they were mad about and how they felt about it; the person getting yelled at would yell back at them, in defense of their actions, situation somehow seemed to get resolved rather quickly (going by childhood memories here), and then literally 2 minutes later, those same two people involved in the above would sit down in the living room and say, "Oh, it's time for our show," and the other person would say, "Oh, yeah, I wonder what happened to so-and-so on the show as though what just transpired minutes ago never happened.  Anger - state it loudly - other person responds - stating their case even louder, and then we go back to watching TV and life is back to normal again - all in a matter of minutes!

I have struggled with this issue of how I handle anger most of my life.  I don't know any other way, but I am certainly willing to learn, listen to others' experiences, listening to advice, etc... .  This is my second marriage and it came out in the first marriage in marriage therapy that my ex-husband stated, "I will never get used to her anger."  So I tried one day with every ounce of my being when I became angry over something one day, with this knowledge of how he felt, to take deep breaths, lower my voice by about 100 notches, and gave it my all to say what I felt.  When I finished I was giving myself mental kudos for this because I thought I got it all under control really well and felt he would not be so hurt as he was before.  I thought it was a big breakthrough for us, but he replied and said my facial expressions were still showing anger.

Yep, at that point, I got pretty defensive and anger all over again.  I put out 1000% only to find out that my facial expressions weren't right now.  I felt defeated, angry all over again and pretty much fed up because clearly my efforts were not recognized and realistically, I cannot view my face while I am talking unless I'm looking at and monitoring my speech and face all at the same time.  At the time, it seemed rather ridiculous.  We divorced many years ago and my husband for the last 33 years has handled things pretty well with my anger.  He just puts me in my place when I get too loud and "in your face," and tells me he won't tolerate me yelling at him like that and I need to regroup, calm down and we can start again.  It's been very effective.

So there's my background with anger.  It has been an issue for me and continues to be.  I am again more than willing to learn how to deal with coming across to my son and uBPD fiancee better than I have and hopefully come out with a better result. 

I welcome all of your replies, ideas, validation, support, empathy, etc., and think this is a wonderful place for me to be.  I apologize that my responses were so defensive and I certainly apologize if I made anyone angry or hurt anyone's feelings by anything I said. 

I am a work in progress right now, which I suppose we all are each and every day.

  to all

Angie59

Hi Angie- glad you are here. You have touched on some very important concepts- concepts that can help you in all your relationships- including your son and DIL if they come around.

Anger is a normal emotion, and if we don't have ways to manage anger, we can either yell it out or become depressed. Everyone feels anger. Learning to manage anger so that we don't ruin relationships with others is a great skill.

Nobody expects perfection. In fact, there is a saying "progress not perfection". Learning can be two steps forward and one step backwards. Make a commitment to learn but don't be hard on yourself. A child learning to walk can fall down and has to get back up again, until he gets it. Learning to manage emotions can be like that.

Learning to truly apologize is also a skill. I realized that I didn't know that skill, and instead would explain or give an excuse. That feels invalidating. A true apology has no explanation and no expectations. Saying to your son and DIL- " I am sorry that I lost my temper. Please forgive me" is all you need. It is up to them to forgive you if they choose. Also they may yell back and all you can say is " Yes, I am sorry" and if they are abusive politely say " I need to go now ,I just wanted to tell you this" and then hang up or walk away. Don't get involved in the drama.

It helps to understand what is happening biologically when we are angry. We all have a primitive part of the brain. We share this with all the animals. It is an instinctual part of us. As humans, we also have a higher thinking part of the brain - the one that uses judgement. When we are angry, we are so flooded with feelings we act more from our primitive brain " the lizard" brain. Our fight and flight instincts are turned on and our judgement is muted. This is why we can't process when angry. It is best to recognize this and not say or do anything unless we are in true danger. This doesn't mean not discussing what made you angry or letting people do things that make you angry. It just means that it is better to discuss these things when all of you are calmer. If a pwBPD can't handle their own emotions, they can't handle someone else's so it is best to wait when you are calmer and less reactive to their possible reactions.

Dysfunctional behaviors are intergenerational. You learned from your family and they learned from their parents/grandparents. Learning new behaviors can break this cycle but if people are not aware of it, they don't know they need to change. In families, dysfunctional behavior is seen as "normal" and only when a person relates to someone outside the family do they see the dysfunction in it.

We also tend to choose partners who "match" our issues in some way. This may be a puzzle. It was for me and my husband. My mother is severely BPD and his parents are not. When we had issues between us, I wondered how we could match. At first glance his parents didn't seem anything like mine, but now I can see that his parents can't handle angry emotions much better than mine could- and so neither of us grew up with role models for a good way to do that. With my BPD mother, her emotions were all over the place- yelling, raging. With my H's family they either didn't discuss feelings, or showed anger like yours. If someone was angry, the goal was - biggest, meanest, yeller wins and they kept on going until someone backed off. Like your family once it was over, they all sat down like nothing happened but nothing was resolved or repaired either.

So if my H was mad, he would yell and say mean things. He always "won" as I would break down crying, thinking he meant what he said. In his mind, it was game over, meanest person wins and didn't mean it. There was no reconciliation of the issues and this pattern eroded the marriage with him thinking all was well because he was doing what was normal in his family. But my family was different. I feared anger and didn't know how to fight back because if BPD momma was angry, it was a terrible thing in my family- Dad would be angry, we'd be punished, BPD mom would not forget. I grew up fearing anger and so began to walk on eggshells with my husband and we recreated some of the same dysfunction in my parents' marriage.

I know you don't have BPD but one thing that is in common with that is that- people with BPD can't handle uncomfortable emotions and anger is one of them, so they lose their cool with that as well. I hear that you also have a lot of fear and fear is often expressed as anger. Do you think your son fears anger or considers an angry outburst to be "normal" since he grew up with it? This may be why he didn't see the abnormality in his fiancees temper, or even may be afraid of it. This is not to blame you. How we choose a partner is complicated and not something to blame our parents on but being aware of family patterns does help us see what we can improve on. I don't blame my parents for how I grew up- they did the best they could with what they knew and they also did some good things for me. However, I had to learn a different way to manage my own feelings than how I grew up and as adults, many of us do too. Seeing how your son responds to anger might help you understand his situation better. While you aptly feel like a victim in this situation, what he deals with in his own relationship is probably very difficult too.

We can only change ourselves, but when we learn emotionally ways to manage our feelings and relate to others, it can be a game changer as we role model it. When we become less emotionally reactive to drama, we don't add to it. We can not change the past, but it is not too late to make positive changes. My mother is elderly and although she is still dysfunctional and a relationship isn't easy- it is better than it was- because I learned to manage myself in a relationship with her. I'm not perfect either- but it is progress, not perfection  :)

Hi again Angie59

Great to see you back. Thanks for sharing some more of your background story. Given your past experiences and how anger was expressed and dealt with in your family of origin, I understand why this for you would feel like a normal way of expressing yourself. Basically growing up in your family this was the norm.

The first step to changing something is acknowledging it and when it comes to your anger, I think you've just done that. We actually have some resources here that deal specifically with anger and ways to deal with it:

Anger and Healing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=75098.0)

Has the anger gone too far? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=185367.0)

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831)

Anger Management: Anger Issues and Types of Anger (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=124720.0)

You mention your husband of 33 years. Was he also present when you confronted your son and his fiancée? If he was, how did he view what you did?

A few days have passed, have you since had any contact with your son and/or his fiancée?

I am glad you find this forum such a wonderful place

The Board Parrot

Good morning!

I think the last post I made did not answer a few questions that were posed to me.  I will address Kwamina's questions first. 

You asked if I knew for sure that my son's uBPD fiancee was cheating on him.  Without going into detail, yes I do.  It is not speculation.  It is not most likely, it sure looks that way.  It is not that there is a 99% chance she is.  She is engaging in sex with one man in particular right now (100%) and perhaps others in the past.  Promiscuity, I learned is one of the BPD traits and it fits her to a T. 

We had out-of-town family over the weekend, so yes, for that reason, we have seen both my son, grandchildren and his uBPD fiancee for a bar-b-que at our house.  My original plan was because of the tension between them and my husband and I due to Friday's blow-up, we were going to run some errands and give them a chance to be alone and enjoy the rest of the family without the obvious tension that would have been present.  This, in turn, upset my nephew (out-of-town) who said he was making the barbeque for us (my husband and I) to thank us for letting them stay with us and for everything we had done for them.  So... .we decided to stay there - they traveled 900 miles to see us, so I felt he deserved that much, so we stayed.

Both son and fiancee acted as if nothing at all ever happened and enjoyed the barbeque.  I, on the other hand, am not so quick to forget what happened so I faked it for the day and acted as if everything was okay for my family's sake. 

A discussion was had this morning with my son about how my finger pointing and yelling was not going to be tolerated.  It left him and his fiancee so upset and hurt.  I can understand what he is saying.  Notice I say "he" because he is a sensitive person and I know him well enough to know that he can be hurt by this. 

I have a hard time here guys with this:  Saying your fiancee was so hurt by me (I raise my voice, I did some fingerpointing, literrally - never physical violence, never throwing anything, no hands on anyone - it's my mouth, and apparently my fingers) that hurt her so terribly.  However, this is the same person who yelled out "Yeah, go back in the house you m&$%@#* f&@#*^ one day when we were at their house for a barbeque to my son with my newborn grandson in her arms.  She is also the same person who screamed (literally) at her then 3-year-old daughter because she had an accident in her panties while we were there and couldn't control it enough to make it to the bathroom.  She yelled, boy did she yell, and said so many bellittling and humiliating things to her that I will not repeat them here.  All to a 3-year-old. 

So... .what's going on?  Yelling is only prohibited to me, but she can go ahead and act this way in front of us to her child, and God only knows what it is in store for my grandson.  Contradictions?  Double standards? Me being unreasonable?  Am I not seeing things correctly? 

Please tell me because I am really struggling with this one.

 

Forgot to answer another question you had, Kwamina about what was my husband's reaction to all of this.  He does not yell much, but when he gets really angry, watch out!  In this instance, he pretty much agreed with me as the conversation went along and supported everything I had to say.  He also said he only said what he said because he could not get a word in edge-wise.  I'm only trying to give you the honest picture here.  I was on a roll.

Also Kwamina, thank you for the links.  I am going to go over them this afternoon and this evening.  I am sure they will be helpful to me. 

To NotWendy, thank you so much for taking the time to explain the family dynamics of your family and the differences with your husband's family.  It does make it hard when coming from such different backgrounds. 

My son's uBPD fiancee's family is very, very different than what I was brought up with.  Her mother has come right out and said she did not want children, but had my son's fiancee for her husband.  She has lost her temper in front of me several times - not directly at me, but has shown her anger and raised her voice.  My son's fiancee's father is an alcoholic and does not really know how to speak in a soft voice.  He is a ole' country boy who had to work hard at an early age and is still working hard at his job and resents the job my son has.  My son is an architect and has a nice cushy job in an office.  When I tried to express my condolences on the passing of his father, he only went in to some big rendition (speaking very loudly the whole time) about how horrible his brother was and he did this and that and so on. 

With this type of background, why am I so hurtful to her?  I feel I'm the big bad ogre in the room and yet, I see it all around me in this family atmosphere (which is really nothing close to what I define as a family). 

I want to say at this point - I am really trying hard to learn right now, not only to better the relationship with my son's family but to make me a better an happier person as well.  If it appears that I take offense to anything anyone says, maybe it's simply because I need to clarify the information I put out there or I just need to stop and think that maybe it just may be true!  I'm keeping my mind as open as possible right now.  I appreciate all of you and feel so fortunate I found this safe place.

Angie
 

Having seen/heard all of this, can you have some compassion for your son's fiancé?  Can you imagine what it might be like for a little girl to have a dad that doesn't do any thing but yell and complain and a mother who has told her she was unwanted?  Can you see that she had a double whammy when it came to her parents. Where was the love for that little girl? 

Maybe you can make room for compassion and use that to push out some of the anger you have towards her.

Panda39

Hi Panda!

Thanks for replying.  I have had compassion for my son's uBPD fiancee.  I have read some of her poetry books which are very telling as well as what she has written in the margins, with her encouraging me to do so when asked if I could read them.  Somewhere, somehow, along the line, someone or someones have done something to her and I don't even want to begin to imagine what that could have been, but it has affected her deeply and I can see that and my heart melted when I read the things she wrote.  They were eye-openers. 

That said, the very next day I come across information and proof of her cheating on my son, the man she went out of the country with less than one month ago.  All of her interests now are surrounded around this man.  She dresses scantily - not for my son, but for other men.  She is rude around me, does not show any respect for myself or my husband, excludes us from plans, and so much more. 

Yes, absolutely I have compassion for her.  Please tell... .how do I get past all of the above?  Did the compassion disappear now?  No, not when I think about the poetry books and her comments. 

How many slaps in the face am I expected to take because of her past though?  I am asking this in all sincerity. 

if you want our support, sympathy, and understanding when it comes to this, you have it. it isnt fair, and shes a pill. and weve been there. we all needed to be able to vent our frustrations, and the unfairness of our situations, and at times still do, because it is stuff that really tests us.

at the end of the day, this is about making the best of a bad situation (and improving it where/if possible). fair or not, thats going to have to start with you - she has obvious limitations in that regard, and youre the stronger of the two. its going to take some patience, some skills, and some practicing those skills when youre tested (you wont get it right 100% of the time, no one does, and thats okay), and some skills for coping with your frustrations and hurts, which at times, we all need to vent and have understood. it may take some healthy distance in some situations, too.

folks have been talking about the karpman drama triangle and how it plays out between all of you. have you thought it through to logical conclusions? if your sons relationship ends (im assuming you believe that would be best for him) then hes going to need your support and understanding, and hes going to need to trust that its there, which you can consistently demonstrate. but what happens if the conflict between all of you continues, the relationship breaks, and your son blames you instead? telling him or us that it isnt fair wont do any good. there will be tremendous damage, and it could come at a loss of contact with your son and grandchildren.

we dont choose our families. we dont necessarily like everyone in them. we navigate it (a lot easier if we have people to help and guide us) because we love and value our family more than who is right or wrong. at the heart of the karpman drama triangle is the need to be right. when we let go of that (not simple), its easier to shift to a healthier place in the triangle.

What I'm suggesting is using compassion for that little girl that had a poor upbringing as a tool to help keep your anger in check.  Maybe picture her in your minds eye as a little girl who has not had the benefit of the best upbringing.  Your anger is yours to control. Managing anger might be a good topic to discuss with your Therapist next time you go in for a visit.

Panda39

Angie, spend some times reading the other stories on this board, the ones not just about an in-law;  those of us with disordered parents and parents who did not want them and or were alcoholics.  You know how you have trouble relating to your STB DIL and her family?  What if I told you she probably has the same difficulty with you only worse because of the abuse and environment she grew up in?   I am not saying you should ignore her behavior or be full of compassion 100% or anything like that.  I am just trying to shift your perspective a bit so maybe your anger and resentment can decline a bit and you hopefully won't explode again.

Keep focusing on what you can control:  yourself.  :)

I don't think anyone is asking you to take slaps in the face.  Others on the board pointing out her likely not-so-great upbringing is simply a way to refocus your mind on the situation in an effort to better control your anger.  Feeling compassion for her will likely not stop you from being angry at certain issues, nor should it.  What it can do is remind you that there are reasons for her flaws, and those reasons are not simply to make you angry - her issues are far deeper than that and yelling at her or your son will not fix them or "snap her out of it." 

It sounds as though you are feeling that not showing your anger and having to "bottle your feelings" equates to a relationship not being equal or fair.  If she's allowed to do x, y, and z, why can't I?  I hate to use a common saying, but "Life's not fair."  This relationship between you two will never be fair in your eyes if this is how you see fair.  If she truly has BPD, she is not capable of giving you what you are looking for.  Expecting something from her that she cannot provide will only serve to perpetuate your anger. 


She likely thinks you are different than her family simply because they are her family.  She has been around them for many, many years and they are therefore more predictable.  She likely knows what to expect from them and that's far less threatening than someone new that she hasn't figured out yet.  It's similar to the yelling you described in your family growing up.  This is comfortable to you, but others looking in may not feel that way.  The things I grew up around are things I grew up thinking were totally normal and fine but in telling my stories to others in adulthood, the reactions show they are far from normal.  Knowing what's coming and being able to see familiar patterns is more comfortable than the unknown - and right now you are the unknown.  I wouldn't take it personally - I think this is human nature and not even necessarily related to BPD. 

It doesn't seem fair that the fiancee gets to act the way she does and still gets your son's attention and love, while you behave better and he isn't as accepting as you.

My only suggestion is to get off that triangle. It leads nowhere. You are you, and she is who she is, and for some reason, which you may not ever fully understand, he chose her.

I grew up with that. If I did anything that upset my mother or my father, it was a major uproar from them, even if it was the slightest thing. On the other hand, my mother could do some really horrible things without any apparent consequence from my father. As a teen this was very confusing- parents holding me to traditional rules for teens and yet, BPD mother seemed to have no rules but thank goodness they raised me with ethics and rules.

I also found that my father would show his anger and set limits on the person he could do that with, and that was me. If mother spent without limits, and I asked him for something, he would say "no" - maybe because he knew he could without triggering a BPD rage.

I think it helps to have compassion for the fiancee-  but that does not mean tolerating abuse. Perhaps your son can see her childhood hurts and desires to protect her. He sees you as the stronger one. As I got to know my mother's FOO more, I realized how hard it must have been for her to grow up in that family. They are very invalidating and also act superior to her- and I feel they act that way to me. She's always trying to prove to them she can measure up. I can have compassion for the hurt child she may have been.

I can't begin to understand my father's sense of connection to her, but I also observed that no matter what she did, the bond was stronger than that. His only concern was for her well being and he would do whatever it took to try to make her happy. The rules in my family were: mother can do whatever she wants and we were not to say a word about it. It may not have been fair but that's the way it was.

If it seems you are getting the tougher end of the deal, be glad you don't behave like her. As an adult, I am glad I didn't get away with behaviors I don't respect. The determinant of my behavior is me. I treat my mother accordingly not because of her but because I choose to treat people according to my own values. This also includes myself.

Thank you once again for all of your replies.  They are truly appreciated.

I am sitting here writing this at my son's house right now because it is our day to babysit him.  Tomorrow we will not be here as I am having a cardio stress test done and a few other things. 

Another blowup occurred with my son on the phone last night.  This has all taken a great toll on me, as I know it has on others in the family.  My husband and I are not speaking to each other due to conversations about this whole matter.  He agrees totally and sees things as I do, but for some odd reason, whenever we try to talk to each other about it, he's interrupting me, or I'm interrupting him and the whole thing goes haywire.  After 33 years of marriage this is the first time we have ever gone this long without speaking.  I feel my son's uBPD has tentacles that are reaching into my own house as well as being present here and are spreading poison everywhere.

With that said, yes, I do feel compassion for her.  Every time I think of the things she had to say in her poetry, etc.  I don't know any details whatsoever that happened to her, but as I said before, she is a very disturbed person and I think the people who should have cared for her the most and kept her safe are the same ones that are close to her now. 

I will take the advice given and try to keep that little child image in my mind and keep my compassion going for her.  It is very difficult to do (not saying impossible), because I have other things in my mind's eye, like her possibly in bed with another man this very minute as I am writing this.  As his mother, that is a hard one to take. 

The same tablet that nude/bondage pictures were on is sitting here next to me, all ready for me to take a peek at.  Something in me has now changed.  I have no interest anymore on what is on that tablet.  I have no interest in the new revealing clothes she has bought, any of the things I was having to hold myself back from being a snoop.  I'm simply not interested anymore.

Today, I have said perhaps a dozen words.  I feel nothing inside me at this point.  No anger, no bitterness, no wondering, just sadness.  Pure and complete sadness inside with a feeling of emptiness.  I guess you could say defeated for lack of a better word.  I don't want to hold a conversation with my husband now for fear I will say something wrong and the situation with us will only worsen.  I certainly don't want to talk to my son or his fiancee about anything whatsoever.  I feel like going home after this day and locking my bedroom door and not coming back out until tomorrow for my appointment.  No conversing with anyone. 

I don't mean this to sound like a pity party for myself.  I don't feel sorry for me.  I feel like under the circumstances, at this point anything I would even attempt to say would yield negative results. 

The sadness comes from a strong feeling I have that my son and fiancee will be (if not already), looking for someone to replace us for babysitting.  This was my worst nightmare and I do believe it will come true.  I can't say I have any real proof of it, just a strong feeling within me. 

I know I will be going through more loss without him (my GS2) and by that I am talking about the loss of my dog a few weeks back.  They were both so much comfort for me when I felt no one else was understanding me.  My dog loved me no matter what and we were attached at the hip!  My grandson loves me for who I am.   Him and I are buddies and I will miss him terribly if this occurs.  Too many losses in too short of time?  Not to mention the loss of communication with my son.

Maybe some of you reading this may be thinking, "well, you had it coming to you for losing your cool and yelling, etc."  Maybe I do.  I just know that today feels like one of the saddest days of my life.  When my son gets him I feel as if I will be saying goodbye to them all forever.  Catastrophic thinking?  Probably.  I always prepare for the worst in my head though.

Thanks for reading this and letting me share my feelings with you.

Angie

Hi Angie

Thanks for answering more of my questions :)


Do you feel like this approach to life has helped you in any way so far? What would you say are the advantages of thinking this way? Can you perhaps also list some possible disadvantages of you thinking this way?


Does your son also know this? If he does, has he expressed to you how he feels about his wife's behavior?


I hope you indeed were able to go through some of those resources. I think they can be very helpful to you as you deal with all of this.


I think what might help is to not consider this as an 'either or' thing. You have more options available than just 'taking slaps in the face' or 'going off on her' like you did the other day. Those are two extremes and they are both rather unhealthy. Two of the most important tools mentioned are this site are validation and boundaries. Sometimes it might seem that it's either one or the other, but I believe that in healthy relationships and communication, validation and boundaries actually go hand in hand. Validation and compassion without having boundaries in place can easily lead to total self-sacrifice which isn't healthy. On the other hand, when setting boundaries without compassion or empathy, being assertive very quickly turns into being aggressive. It is possible to have compassion while at the same time calmly and firmly asserting and protecting yourself. Yet when you go off, you aren't calm at all which make it very easy to lose sight of compassion and then only rage remains. Does this make sense to you? Can you see approaches that might work which aren't one of these two opposite extremes?


I don't think it's about it being right when one person does it and wrong when another does it, or one person being allowed to behave this way and the other person not. Her behavior you describe here would probably also be deemed inappropriate by many of our members, just like you going off on your son and her the way you did the other day. Calmly and firmly asserting yourself while expressing how inappropriate you find her behavior would be an alternative and likely more constructive way of dealing with this.

Also, if your son's fiancée indeed has BPD, it is important to keep in mind that she suffers from distorted thinking and perception, resulting in intense emotions in turn resulting in rather unstable behavior. This does not excuse any of her behavior, but it is important to recognize that BPD is a serious disorder and people with BPD don't just choose to turn the BPD switch on. If she indeed has BPD, her behavior most likely isn't a reflection of you ar anyone else at all, it's just a projection of her own inner turmoil and negativity. Her behavior is way more about her than it is about you. At the same time, your own behavior is also mostly about you, way more than it is about anyone else.

Hello everyone!

Kiwamina, I just wanted to address a few things you asked me about.  :)oes my "always expect the worst" to happen outlook help me.  No, usually not.  It is usually related to health aspects, so if I have to have blood work done, for instance, until I receive the results, I expect the worst possible thing will show up and they will be telling me I am going to die.  All it really does is cause a lot more anxiety than I already have.  Once I am told everything is fine, then I can give a huge sign of relief and carry on (until the next doc visit or test, etc).  In a strange sort of way it seems like maybe I have tricked myself into thinking that as long as I expect the worse, then everything will be okay, as this is what always happens.  Overall, I recognize it is not a healthy way to think of things.  

Regarding my son and what he thinks about his uBPD's fiancee's behavior with other men, I don't really know.  I feel he certainly has pretty much knowledge of what may be going on, but does he know for certain that he is cheating on him.  No, I don't think so or he may just be in denial.  The pictures I spoke of are certainly out in the open on the tablet for him to look at if he wishes.  He has certainly know about each of the trips she took with other men.  The very fact that he made the comment he did to his fiancee when she left on this last trip with her male "friend" to the Caribbeans, when she told him she was going was "Well, that's great timing.  We just got engaged."  He had to have said that for some reason.  Her response (which totally blows me away - please tell me if you know), was a bewildered look on her face, a shrug of the shoulder and just said, Well... .and that was it.  Like she had no idea whatsoever that this was not the thing someone would do if they were in a relationship with someone, much less newly engaged.

I do not understand her behavior and my T said that no matter how much I read, no matter how long I stay on this website, no matter how many people I talk to, it will not help me to understand her thinking.  My T said that people with BP process things differently in their mind than most people do.  So, how do you ever have a relationship with them of any real meaning?  

My husband and I had a discussion about all of this this morning and his feelings are that it is getting ridiculous - all the giving on our part, all the taking on their part with no recognition, appreciation, nothing in return.  My husband and I are on a fixed income and have to watch our dollars closely.  I called my son this morning to ask him about us getting our GS2 a bike for his 2nd birthday coming up and his thoughts on it.  We waited awhile, but then my husband needed to leave so he went ahead and picked it up while he was out.  (It is of course just a tricycle made for a 2-year-old).  I am so excited to give it to him and was excited when I told my son that Dad was out picking up GS2's first bike and all he said in return was, did we get a helmet?  I replied no, we are limited on resources, as you well know, so we could only get the bike.  

I think this kind of attitude along with dealing with his uBPD fiancee behavior (which is always so odd to us) and her parents as well is sometimes just too much to take.  Four years of this is getting old.  We don't see anything changing in the future, so it is kind of like, why are continuing to try?

My reason is to hopefully continue to have a relationship with my son, and to especially have one with my GS2.  It is very important to me that our GS2 realizes over the years (too young of course to understand now), but that we will always be there for him.  If things get tough or he is dealing with something, that he is not alone and we will always be his safe harbor, a place to be open, say what he needs to, let off steam, express hurt feelings, whatever it may be.  It is a gut feeling I have that we really need to do this for him because in view of what is happening now and what I have seen during the past 4 years, I believe he will need someone there for him.  

I hope I hit upon everything Kiawama!  Thanks so much for your input.

Thanks!
Angie

Good Angie.  This goes back to what several of us were saying back in your second or third thread.  Be a source of support and a healthy example for your grandson.  All of us here either would have or did benefit from having someone who was a safe harbor for us.  Someone who could teach us boundaries and limits without being controlling and manipulative.  Someone who could demonstrate heathy responses rather than dysfunctional reactions.  To teach us how to handle stress and how to communicate without fear anger and hurt taking over. 

It is good to hear that these things are sinking in at a gut level.

Thanks Harri for your response.  I really do see this clearly in my mind as well as feel it in my gut how important it is to do this for my GS2.  My love for him is inexplicable.  I want this connection with him to go on and it is scary that I may do something again (like blow up) that may make them stay away from us.  I know with my whole heart and soul I must get my anger under control.  I don't like the way I feel, and have felt for a long time and  I know I expressed it before on here, that I feel like I am living in fear sometimes because they have something so precious to me and I am so afraid I am going to screw it up and they will take him away from us completely. 

I have the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and well as the accompanying workbook to this.  I will be seeing my T this Tuesday so I will be discussing these things with her as well. 

It's hard feeling like this because it takes up so much of your head space.  I find myself, husband and other son talking about the whole situation quite a bit; probably way too much.

Angie

Hi Angie59:


You say you were very excited about the idea of a bike purchase.  Perhaps by impatiently pushing the bike purchase, you could have brought on a situation where your son seemed ungrateful to you. 

It could be beneficial for you to discuss the "bike" situation, and your feelings, during a therapy session.  Could you be unrealistically expecting gratitude from your son for things that you want (that mean more to you than him)? Could things have gone better with your son, if you gave him a reasonable amount of time to respond to the bike idea.  (a couple of hours isn't a reasonable amount of time)

Just thinking that sometimes we contribute to the outcome we don't like.  Based on what you wrote, here is a point of view to consider:

1.  You indicate that grandson's birthday is coming up (not that it is this weekend or being celebrated this weekend).  It appears as if you were impatient to get an answer from your son about the bike.

2. Even though you don't like your son's fiance, I would think that it would be prudent for your son to discuss a possible bike with her. You didn't give him that chance. In my opinion, it was unrealistic to call your son and expect a quick answer (within a couple of hours).

The chain of events on Saturday are a bit odd to me.  One way to interpret the chain of events is that you planned on making the purchase on Saturday and then tried to get your son's quick approval as an afterthought.  (hoping he would call back with a quick decision, before your husband left to make the purchase). 

3. Sounds like the bike idea was yours, and it is something you are excited about.  Some states have a helmet law for children riding bikes, so it might be a requirement.  No helmet = no bike riding.  If not a requirement, it is a good safety measure.  "Who would buy a helmet", was a necessary discussion.  How was your son to know if you were buying a helmet, with the bike, unless he asked? 

Just providing my thoughts from reading the quote. A beneficial thing that this website can provide is diversity of thought.  We can all read the same quote, but have different reactions.  I believe your above quote was intended to show that you son is ungrateful.  I came away from reading the example with other thoughts.

I'm sure your grandson will enjoy the bike, and you will enjoy watching him enjoy it.  If you expect a certain amount of displays of gratitude from your son and his fiance, you will likely be disappointed. Best to give within your boundaries (reasonable monetary expenditures for you and a reasonable time investment for you), for the joy of giving. For some gifts, it is appropriate to check with you son first, and give him a reasonable amount of time to respond with approval.

It can be be liberating to NOT get too hung up on whether or not people are grateful for what you give them, grateful enough, etc. 

Hello everyone!

Thanks for replying NoOne and I certainly see why you might think the whole situation with the bike was something "we" wanted and not necessarily my son.  I think the lesson I just learned from reading your post is that I do not express myself carefully enough or thoroughly enough sometimes.  I'm sorry if I get confusing with things to the readers.

The idea of a tricycle had already been discussed with my son in the past - a much important point I see now should have been stated.  We talked about different ride-on toys, including the tricycle and we all wondered what he would be able to best ride on as he is on the smaller end of the scale for his age.  A tricycle or a ride-on toy was not new to speaking with my son. 

I do not communicate much with his uBPD fiance because as my T explained to me, people who have BPD do not process things as most people do.  I am always on edge when talking with her about anything really because I can see how she misconstrues things, gets insulted by things that were never meant to be insults, etc... .It is difficult for us (my husband and I) to really converse with her, so we keep the communication with her, sadly, to a minimum.

We have the receipt for the trike and can certainly return it if he feels he cannot get him a helmet right now or if there is a problem with it between him and his fiance.  It is not carved in stone that we have to keep that as his present; always an option.

Yes, I was excited to see him ride his first bike.  I'm not really sure that I feel bad about that though.  I feel it's kind of a normal, but maybe that's just me. 

Sorry for any misunderstanding I may have presented as I clearly did not state all I needed to.

As always, thank you for your reply.

Angie

Is it possible you misinterpreted why your son asked about a helmet?

My kids are older now, but I can imagine a call from a family member telling me they bought my child a bike for their birthday. While i hope I would say thank you first, I might also ask- did you buy a helmet for the purpose of knowing if I should go get one or not, not because I expected one.


My BPD mother listened in on my phone calls to my father. Sometimes his responses to me were short, cryptic, and tense. That's probably because he was WOE and one wrong word could set her off. If she wasn't listening on the other phone she was sitting next to him listening to as much as possible.

Let's imagine your son's fiancee is in earshot. She's angry at you ( from your last exchange) and he is in rescue mode. What do you think would happen if his response was warm and enthusiastic? "Gee mom thanks, that's great". That doesn't fit the "us against you" mode that might be keeping the peace. Maybe "did you get a helmet" is the most neutral response possible.

Right now you are feeling emotionally hurt, and you are also worried about your GS. But there is someone else hurting too and that is your son. Right now you feel hurt by him, but when people are hurting, they act out- sometimes with the one they are most secure with. It may not seem fair, but my father held boundaries better with me than with my mother because - there would be hell to pay for him if he did with her and not me. His helmet response could probably be more about his situation than his lack of appreciation for your gift. 
 

Good morning!

Thank you NotWendy for your reply.  As with NoOne, this is what makes this site so wonderful!  You can get out of your tunnel vision and open your eyes to different perspectives, as both of you have done for me regarding purchase of the tricycle. 

Yesterday I told my son that we still have the receipt for the tricycle and if he feels it is not an appropriate gift for him right now, or for whatever reason, we would be happy to exchange it for something else; and we will.  He said he felt it was a great gift but just needed to know about whether he needed to purchase the helmet or not.

You are right, I am hurt right now.  My son does not seem to hold on to his anger and after we talk it over, we both ended up apologizing to each other and all seems okay.  With his uBPD finance, it is a different story.  I don't know if we will be invited to any celebration that may take place for our GS2's birthday.  If we are, will she even speak to us or acknowledge us?  You just never know. 

My son says he now refuses to get in the middle of things anymore.  He made a boundary for himself, which I think is healthy for him.  My feelings?  I'm being honest here and I know if I get replies, they will be honest and show another perspective, which I want and need.  My feelings to his not getting in the middle anymore is this:  She is your choice for a partner, we did not ask for her to be brought into our lives, so we now have this difficult person who we feel is totally unapproachable, yet we have to learn to approach her anyway if we should have anything that even resembles a relationship.  I sound like a little kid, I know.  Just getting my honest feelings out there.  I kind of feel deserted by him.  Strange huh?

Your son is making a healthy choice not only for himself but for everyone.  He has taken himself off of the drama triangle where frankly both you and his wife expect him to rescue both of you putting him in a no win situation.  The conflict is between you and his fiance and it isn't his job to fix, if you and she want to fix it it's up to you both, he is not deserting you he is expecting you and his wife to act like grown women and work it out. That doesn't mean that you have to be bosom friends.  It may be that you never have an ideal situation with his fiance we don't always get along with or like everyone but you are adult women who should be able to be civil with each other.  You and she both have choices regarding your relationship.  She can stop doing things that antagonize you and you can stop doing things that antagonize her, but that isn't happening right now, instead you are both escalating the drama.

We go back to you can control, you can't control what she does but you can control what you do.  What can you do to stop the escalation of tension between you and your son's fiance?

Panda39

So we now have this difficult person who we feel is totally unapproachable, yet we have to learn to approach her anyway if we should have anything that even resembles a relationship.


You do have choices. You feel like things are unfair to you and you are feeling abandoned. This puts you on the triangle as a victim- hurt by your son. You can take this perspective, but I believe he is not going to help with these feelings and as Panda says, you are taking a position against his fiancee and putting him in the middle. I can not predict his choices but if I had a million dollars to bet on it, I would bet most of it on him choosing her.


You can learn to deal with her in a different way- through the techniques on this board, perhaps some counseling. You do not have to be a doormat, as you can learn boundaries and emotionally mature ways for dealing with dysfunctional people. This opens the possibility that there could be a relationship with your son and his fiancee. They still have a choice and the outcome is not predictable but if I had a million dollars to bet, I'd put some of that money on the chance of having a relationship with them.

You don't bet a dime, take control of the whole situation and cut contact with them. You have made the choice and know the outcome. This puts you in control of the whole thing, you know the outcome, no gamble. But you have zero chance of a relationship with them.

People, and relationships are not predictable and it is hard to not feel a semblance of control but when it comes to other people- we really can not control them. We can only do what we feel is the best step for ourselves and know that the outcome isn't entirely up to us.

While this may not seem fair to you, when someone does the emotional work to learn to deal with a difficult person - the benefit is to the person doing the work. He/she gains the skills and then they can be helpful in all relationships. It is like the little red hen- you may be doing the emotional work in this relationship but you get to keep the skills. You might just find you benefit the most out of this.

Hmm, not sure how to answer your question Panda, as to what we can do to not further escalate the tension between our son and his uBPD fiancee, other than just keep to ourselves and keep quiet.  I think the reason I say that is because I could give her a call right now and we could talk like two civil adults and have a great conversation and resolve some things between us.  OR, she could yell at me that she never wants to speak to me again and wants no contact with us at all.  OR she could do something in the middle.  Way too unpredictable for me, so that is why I feel we should just hang back and let the chips fall where they may.

If you have suggestions on what we can do, please share if you will.  I don't like things like this and I'm sure my son doesn't either.  However, I feel the way you described us as being grown women, acting like civil adults, etc., does not always ring true for those with uBPD.  My T told me that things get processed in their mind differently than most people process things, so this to me is a very rocky road to be on.  I don't really know how to approach her, or perhaps not approach her at all?  I have tried to approach her in the past over things similar to this and it always made things worse, so we don't have a good track record.

Thank you Panda for your reply.  Although I may sound defensive at times, I want you, as well as all that reply to my posts, that I do take your advice, comments etc and respect them.  Some I have already put into place.  Some seem too hard for me right now, but all of them are appreciated.

Angie

There isn't a way to have a conversation with someone and control what they will do. She may or may not be civil but you can still be.

She is who she is- and we can't control someone else. It can help to take the focus off her and on to you. You can be civil. You can stay calm and not be emotionally reactive to her. Yes your feelings matter but neither she or your son can help you with them. We can learn to manage our own feelings.

Middle ground is a good place to start with contact. It isn't reacting to anything they did or said. I'd say give them as much space as they need. If you babysit regularly then that is enough. Treat her like you would treat a colleague -be pleasant and try to stay out of drama. If she is hot headed and reactive - staying clam will not add to it. If you see a part of their lives you don't approve of - pictures , news of another man- that's not your business. This is your sons place to work out. Make this about your grandchild. If you are watching him then you are with him. Enjoy it.

If I were in your shoes I would not call to have a nice chat unless you have something to discuss like what time to be there. You could probably just text that. A nice chat about feelings may not be for now. Remember her birthday, give her affordable gifts at holidays- something small like a card for a coffee shop if she likes that - just a gesture that's special to her. Extend a hand but respect her space. She might bite it or not but if it is about you feeling you tried you can still feel that.

What I am circling back around to is creating some boundaries for yourself.  Boundaries are not about punishing your son's fiance or him, they are about protecting yourself.

Limit the baby sitting if it is too much for you and your husband... .this doesn't mean that you never baby sit but maybe not as frequently is better for you.  You mentioned not wanting to discuss your son and his fiance's relationship with him, then don't that could be a boundary too.  Another boundary might be when you are at your son's house don't look at the offensive pictures on the tablet, or set a budget boundary,  if the tricycle for your grandson is too expensive for you and your husband then see if your son and wife will split the cost and share the cost of the helmet as well (that could be something nice that you do together and it doesn't bust your bank account) or you could set a boundary that you will not lose your cool with your son or his fiance, but instead decide to leave before you blow your top.  

You are in control of everything I've mentioned above.  You are in control of the decisions you make and approaches you take and in control of your emotions and how you express them.  I would suggest that everything I mentioned above would likely bring down your own anxiety level and help with your relationship with your son and his family.

Panda39