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On Friday we had our first T session after a 3-week hiatus caused by my wife not wanting to find another babysitter for our son while her sister was out of town.

In the meantime, I have been a dedicated diarist, recording in my phone’s calendar app just about everything: every cent spent and on what, everything I have done in the house to help my wife, details of everything I have done with my son (activities, playtime, bath times, mealtimes, watching him sing in the Moms’ Day concert, bedtime stories etc.) and, of course, I have summarized interactions with my wife, especially when she has behaved in a dysfunctional manner.  It wasn’t hard to note down details of interactions with my wife as she doesn’t talk to me much and goes to bed so early meaning we never have time when it’s just the 2 of us.

I am keeping this diary for 2 reasons. Firstly, it helped me a lot in the T session to be able to remember and raise points with the T that I wanted to get off my chest and address, and secondly, if and when it comes to divorce and custody hearings, I want to provide solid evidence of my parental involvement and the general dynamic of the marriage.

The session on Friday went badly for my wife.  She came across as a bitter, angry, vindictive, suspicious, untrusting person who is quite unprepared either to recognize her own part in the dysfunction of our relationship or to make any effort to reconcile with me.  Whenever she was challenged on things by the T, my wife blatantly changed the subject or went on the counter-attack. The T picked her up on many of her negative behaviors including her demonizing of me without a shred of evidence or justification.  My wife was visibly upset throughout the session and I think even a layman with no experience of psychology would think that she was not thinking, talking or acting in a rational manner.

The T proposed that in the next session, on Thursday, we split the hour and each of us spend 20 minutes individually with the T, then come together at the end.

It should be interesting.

Or... .it went well in that a trained mental health professional got to see "reality" as opposed to a "veneer".

So... .in the session that you just had... .did you wife agree to anything?  Such as... .talk more, just 1 on 1?  Or... .did she agree to anything to improve things?

Have you talked to a L yet about separation and how mental health may play into things?  I ask because your 1 on 1 time may be a good time to ask some direct questions.

Such as... .have you seen enough to make a diagnosis on either one of us?  If not, what would that look like? 

I would ask your L if diagnosis like that matter for separation/custody.

Not trying to scare you... .but prepare you and then hope it doesn't need to be used.

FF

Hey Dragon72, I admire your courage to undertake MC with your W.  I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction that your W will find an excuse to cancel or postpone the next meeting.  Maybe I will be proven wrong and, if so, that's all to the good.  Keep us posted!  LJ

Yes, I do think the T got to see my wife for who she is.  I mentioned how, when I urged my wife to rein in spending as we were running out of money, she had shut the conversation down by insisting that I had plenty. When I said this to the T, my wife immediately started accusing me of siphoning money and being dishonest. I then produced a printout with details of where every penny has gone since the last time I got paid.  My wife refused to even glance at it, saying "Anyone can manipulate figures" and called me a compulsive liar.
She showed to the T very clearly that she only sees me through a prism that portrays me as a bad person.

At one point my wife threatened me too.  She said to me, cryptically, "You're not the only male member of my family, you know". The implication was that her brothers could come and "deal with me" if I ever did anything bad towards her. The T picked this up as a threat too, even before I did.

We didn't come to any agreements in the last session. It kind of lost its focus a bit. It was clear that my wife has done little to try to improve things between us (in fact, quite the opposite) and the only real outcome was to agree to split the next session.

I haven't yet talked to a lawyer about separation and mental health issues. I wanted to give it more time with the T and let my wife demonstrate more character traits. I feel she has done that very nicely over the course of the 4 sessions we have had so far and I am going to take advantage of the individual time with the T on Thursday to ask the T if she has an opinion.  I won't mention the words BPD (my unqualified diagnosis), but hope that the T has enough training and expertise to recognise at least a disorder of some description, which could be useful in any subsequent litigation.

I think it is a big mistake to delay talking with a L.   red-flag

I'm not saying you should take legal action... .I am saying you need to fully understand your options.

Listen, I hope for the best for you.  I will also say that many times a "turn" in a BPD relationship goes fast.  Preparation on your point is critical.

A "turn" can be good or bad.




What did the T do here?  Say?


 


Confirm the bold part... that you are talking about your T.

What specifically has she done that leads you to this judgment?  It sounds like she listens a lot and brings up issues.  Can you flesh this part out a bit more?

FF

I can't remember exactly what the T said when my wife cryptically threatened me.  I remember seeing the T's eyebrows raise as my wife said the words and them her agreeing with my interpretation and request for clarification from my wife that it was indeed a threat. I think my wife took us off on a tangent at that point.

That bit in bold was about my wife demonstrating clearly what she's really like. I wasn't talking about the T's skill.

I will talk to the lawyer soon.

Just remembered. In Friday's session, my wife also confirmed that she hit me once too when she was angry.  It was the day I found out that she had spent a few hundred bucks on a funeral plot for her and our son without my consent. I was driving and I was telling her how angry I was that she did that and I missed seeing a speed bump and I drove over it a little to fast so we all jumped in the car. My wife told me to pull over, so I did. She then got out, opened the driver's door where I was, screamed at me and then punched me on the shoulder. I didn't react and waited for her to get safely back in the car before driving off.  
My wife recounted the story (pretty faithfully and accurately) to the T, even confirming that I had missed seeing the speed bump (ie, didn't drive fast over it intentionally), then my wife dismissed the punch as "just a knock on the shoulder" but the T said "A hit is a hit".

I would push to get at least one consultation done... .prior to private time with the T this coming week (Thursday I think you said)

FF

What specific questions do you suggest?

Explain entire situation, ask his advice about your chances for 50/50 or better custody.

Ask about how courts see mental illness.

Ask about your status as a foreigner.

Make sure and talk about wife ignoring psychologist about sleeping arrangements.

Ask what will happen is crazy claims are made... .with no evidence... .but lots of passion.

FF

I would be very interested on the part of mental illness and custody on the Mexican system. If you get any information and share Id appreciate it. My ex's mother has brought charges against her, and it is nasty. She wants me for a witness, and I am on the fence on what to do. If it comes to that, Ill share with you guys more details.

I still haven't had the chance to talk with my lawyer.  I'll try to make it happen before tomorrow.

My wife is in a sort of peaceful mode at the moment.  She's not being aggressive or defensive. She's being warm, but in a sort of "arms-length" sort of way. It's still not what I would call a marriage. More like cohabitation.

There was a moment of suprising behavior recently. 

On Saturday, my wife announced out of the blue that she would be going into the city center with her sister.  This was at about 9am and she left pretty much there and then. It takes about an hour to get there, so I assumed she would be gone until about 6.30 when our son usually has his supper and begins to get ready for bed.  She asked our son if he wanted to go with her or stay with me and he wanted to go with her so off they went.  She didn't specify what they were going for. I assumed it was to do a bit of shopping.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed the freedom from eggshells for a day.  By 6.30pm there wasn't any sign of them coming back, and she didn't message me, so I texted her asking if they were okay.  The city center where I live can be a dangerous place. 
At 7pm (our son's suppertime) she texted back to say that they were fine. Nothing more.  I asked when they were planning to get back. 
At 7.30 I'd had no reply so I asked again.  Soon after, she replied that they were on their way home. 
At 8.30, they still hadn't arrived, no message.
At 9, still hadn't arrived and there was an almighty thunder/hail storm outside, so I texted saying I was worried.  At 9.15 she replied saying that they were being picked up at the subway station by my sister in law's daughter who brought them back.
They eventually got in at 9.45.  More than 12 hours after leaving and well after my son's bedtime.

When they got back, I calmly but assertively told my wife that I wasn't happy that she had not kept me informed and that she had brought our son back so late.  I asked what they had been doing for 12 hours. I just got some vague answer about being with her sister who met up with one of her girl friends. No specifics.  I restated that I was worried about them and angry that she hadn't thought to keep me informed.

She then did 2 things she has NEVER done before: she said sorry (unequivocally) and gave me a hug.

This is from a lady who has barely even been talking to me let alone be physically affectionate.  I didn't think she even had the word "sorry" in her vocabulary.

We had T session #5 yesterday evening. The plan was  to spend 20 mins individually with the T, then come together for the final 20 minutes.

I let the T take control in my private 20 minutes (I went 2nd) and that meant that I didn't get to address some issues that I would have liked to during my alone time with her (such as "What's your clinical assessment of my wife from what you have seen so far?". 

The T asked each of us in turn questions about our families of origin during the 1to1 sessions.  I think that was a good thing because it is highly relevant in both of our cases in terms of understanding how we became the people we are.

When we came back together for the final 20 minutes, the T highlighted some of the similarities in our respective stories. Absent fathers, domineering mothers being the main theme.  I found it useful to hear about my wife's childhood (which she has never really discussed with me before) and learn just how much she was emotionally neglected, and "lost" in the middle of 7 siblings.  I think my wife had to do a lot of parenting of her younger siblings.  No mention was made of her mother bullying her, which I had previously heard from one of her siblings.  But it was useful to know, or at least be reminded that her current behavior is the probable result of things that were no fault of my wife's. She seemed to me a little bit more human again.

In the previous session, the subject of money dominated, with my wife vehemently insisting that I am a down-to-the-bone liar and that all my careful record keeping of spending was all "manipulated data".  My wife refused to even look at the spreadsheet I printed off for her to look at in the last session, insisting that she would only be satisfied looking at official bank documentation.

So this week I brought to the T session a big folder of itemized bank account and credit card statemements for the last 6 months.  I handed the folder over to my wife and the T said that my wife's homework was to go through the statements and discuss any issues in the next session.  Should be interesting.  Whenever I have tried to prove my innocence with evidence before (JADE'ing, basically) it has only made her more convinced of my guilt. Let's see how it turns out with an intermediary.

My homework is to write down:
1.) a list of reasons why I want to stay in the marriage
and 2.) what changes I would like to see happen to make it possible.
#1 is difficult. I can only think of reasons why it would be difficult to leave.
#2 is easier, but I'll have to make sure it doesn't just end up being a list of my wife's dysfunctional behavior.

Hey dragon,

Did you let your wife know you're journaling/keeping a record of things?

I made the mistake of telling my wife I was doing this about a year and a half ago, and she went nuts.  she made me promise to stop. now whenever we fight she demands to know if I'm "building a case against [her]"

I figured she knows that the chance I'll sit there and endure this behavior from her is jeopardized if I keep track of how often it occurs.  undermines her attempts to portray her behavior as a response to mine, or an isolated incident, instead of the pattern it is.

ALSO... .I agree with LuckyJim: she'll probably find an excuse to stop
going sooner or later.  same thing happened in our case, once we used a therapist that called her out for screaming, raging, insulting me, etc. instead of sitting there yawning, and telling us to work on learning eachother's "love languages"... .

She knows I catalog every cent I spend. She doesn't know I keep a "craziness" log and she doesn't know I keep a record of all the things I do with our son so that I can show how much I am involved as a Dad. 

This is genius.

Do you understand what the T did?  Instead of you or the T defending yourselves... .she gave your wife the job of assembling data... .to show her point.

She let your wife do her own work... .instead of you doing the work for her.  (ever heard that around here?)

I love this...

FF

We have our next session on Wednesday.

My homework is to come up with two lists:
1. Reasons to try to salvage the marriage.
2. Changes that I would like to see happen.

I'm in a bit of a negative hole at the moment. Depressed, even. There is so little personal connection between my wife and me.  So I'm finding it tough to approach this task.  If you asked me to say what I love about my wife, I'd find it difficult to say much, so reasons to stay in the relationship would be mostly centered on our son.

And as for the changes I'd like to see happen, my list is in danger of becoming a list of everything I dislike about my wife.

But if I were to take the task seriously it would comprise things that I think she's incapable of now she has split me black: I want her to start to trust me, I want us to have emotional intimacy, I want her to respect as an individual, I want her to show empathy.  But these are things I can't demand of her. They have to come from her willingly.  You can't just ask someone to trust you when they simply don't.  It's like asking someone with a broken leg to climb Mt. Everest.  It ain't gonna happen.

I want to suggest achieveable goals.  But then again, if we're just talking little things, I feel that would be just sticking band-aids on a cancer sufferer. 

I think I need to be convinced that we are worth rescuing as a couple.

I would suggest making the entire list... .everything you can think of.  Set the list aside.  Come back to it and rank it... put it aside again.

Then look for themes.

The list you bring should be more about "process" than specifics.

such as
1.  Follow expert guidance regarding best practices for raising our son.  (likely you solve 10 or so things on your list with this... right?)

2.  Communicate to gain understanding of each others points of view.

I would only turn in 3-4 things.

I would advise you to stay away from having the top reason to stay together be "your son". 

This is midfield territory... .use this list to solve some things and stay positive.

FF

The underlying themes of my list of things I would like to change are:

Trust
Clear and Direct Communication
Empathy
Intimacy
Respect

They are the things that are lacking from my wife in our relationship.  I'm going to run with that.

As for my list of reasons for wanting to be with my wife, I'm struggling to come up with anything I like about her.  The only reasons I can think of are based on practicalities.

Another thing I would like to mention is that I really think my wife needs to get a life. She seems to have no interests or hobbies or friends that she sees regularly. Just about the only social contact she has is with her family.    I think she always puts our son first and she could do with fulfilling her own needs every once in a while.

It'll be interesting to hear how her forensic revision of my accounts went. She has made no mention of it and the folder I handed her doesn't seem to have moved all week.

¡Vámonos!

OK... .I'm going to suggest that you whittle this down.

1.  Respect
2.  Clear and Direct Communication
3.  Change priorities, marriage relationship (do not say you) first... child second.

I'm not saying the other stuff isn't important, I'm saying that without these things above... .empathy won't matter... the other stuff won't matter.

If the stuff above shows up, the rest of the items on your list will take care of themselves.

So... I think you need to be honest about your lack of a list for staying together, yet do it in a smart way.

So... .talk about the memories of good times... the memories of why you got together and say that you are hopeful you can get back to that someday... and that is your motivation.

Don't come out and say... .I haven't a clue or a reason.

Can you see the reasoning here?  Thoughts?

FF

Keep your reasons for the change in priorities short.

Good marriages tend to produce good children.

Good children (where they are the focus) tend NOT to produce good marriages.

FF

It looks like I got me a session on my own this afternoon.

Yesterday evening at about the same time as the sessions take place, there was a torrential storm. There usually is this time of the year at that time of the evening, but you just dash for shelter and wait it out. They soon pass.  So my wife said, "If it rains like that tomorrow, I'm not going to the session".

I just checked with my wife to see if she's all set for this evening's session and she wrote back, "Yesterday I explained to you why, I'm going to skip it till the next session."
(There's not a cloud in the sky)
"OK" I replied.  So I'm on my way there for a 1to1. Goody!

Good on you for going.

Ask the T what her thoughts are on what you should discuss with your wife about the 1 on 1.  My gut reaction is not much, so there is incentive for her to return.

Very important that the "big picture" is that you are going to get help for yourself and the relationship, regardless of what your wife does.

FF

I enjoyed the solo T session yesterday. It felt very cathartic to be able to talk without censoring or worrying that I'm burdening like I would with friends who are aware of my general situation.

I didn't find the opportunity to ask the T's professional opinion about my wife. That kind of seemed irrelevant as the session was more about me, how I got into the relationship and my people-pleasing tendencies.  I felt it was still a getting-to-know-you session on behalf of the T, but I think she has a MUCH better idea of who I am now.  I also found it useful to hear myself describe myself and see just what sort of a person I am.

She was very quick to perceive that I am a long-term high-functioning sufferer of depression and that living in my dysfunctional marriage certainly is not helping that condition. She said I am doing remarkably well in spite of everything. It was great to get the validation that what I am living through is not at all easy.

The T was surprised when I showed up alone, and a little confused by my wife's reasoning about not wanting to go because there was a rainstorm yesterday. We are into the rainy season in Mexico City after all and we have umbrellas.  The T has asked that my wife go solo to the next session.

When I got home, it was bedtime for the little one, so I read him his stories and said good night. At which point my wife went to bed with him, so I didn't talk to her at all about the session. My plan is not to give much detail, since it was really mostly about me.

Whatever you plan to give... .cut that in half and you will likely be about right.

Let her know that next time is her session.

"I think the MC better understands who I am since she had an opportunity to ask more questions about me."

Leave it at that... .or suggest that it being a topic discussed in therapy at a future date.  Don't say you won't discuss it... .say you want to be wise and thoughtful about it.

FF

The T said to me that I need a bigger support network.  I didn't tell her about this place, which is my main support resource, but she's right.  When she said that I recognised that I also need more of a social life, which is also a part of looking after myself.

I think you are safe... and likely appropriate to mention "anonymous online support groups" and that you participate in them

I would be shocked if she pressed you for more information.

Context:  my P knows that I do online stuff... .but she has never pressed me for details.  She has asked for broad descriptions of what was "taught" and all that... .  Once she was satisfied it was nothing weird or unhelpful... .she said she was supportive and dropped it. 

Said another way... .it is reasonable for your MC to inquire some... because there are lots of unhelpful online sites (IMO).

FF

Today it's Mrs Dragon72's turn to have a 1on1 with the therapist.

I hope that it goes well. But I'm not going to think about it too much because a) it should be more about her than about me and b) even if she does misrepresent me or distort truth or even lie, I know that there's nothing I can do to about it. Radical acceptance.

I have been thinking a lot recently that the heart of the issue lies with me, rather than with her. The last T sessions really made me realise that I have some distorted thought patterns, particularly about myself, that have their roots in childhood, which have led me to allow myself to maintain a dysfunctional relationship with an equally but differently damaged person.

That hard part is working out what to do with this realization and where to go from here.

Hey Dragon72, Same could be said for most of us Nons, I suspect, which is why we get into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  You have put your finger on the jumping off place for new growth, in my view.  If you can see patterns from childhood and/or your FOO, you are in a position to change them.

LJ

Boundaries:  The "heart" of your issues absolutely lies with you.
 
Her issues lie with her.

Where it gets really complex is that each relationship is different... .because you each bring your own hearts... .and the way they combine is unique. (although many of the big picture principles and things stay the same).


So... I encourage you to "own" your stuff... .because you get to vote on that... and change that.

Also... .don't "own" hers...

So... .if you want to share details... .we are ready to listen.  Perhaps we can help you think it through.


FF

Did she ever "turn in" the finance documents where she was going to show all the stealing you have done... or hiding... or whatever she called it?

Did she attend the session yesterday? 

Do you have another session scheduled for this coming week?

FF

No, she never touched the file again nor mentioned it.  It's still lying on the kitchen table.

She went alone to the T on Friday.

I didn't sleep much on Thursday night as I was up coughing due to a chest infection (which has since cleared up) so I was tired at work on Friday, which was a long and busy day. When I got home from work, she still hadn't gotten back yet and so I ate and then relaxed a while in front of the TV.  I was exhausted. 

A couple hours later at 7pm or so, I started to iron a big pile of clothes that needed to be ironed. Just then, my wife got home.  Within seconds she asked me how long I'd been home and why I hadn't done various housework things.  I was tired and cranky and bit back and said I didn't like her attitude. I told her that she's not my employer, that after a long hard day at work earning money for the family I have the right to an hour and a half of down time and that I didn't like the fact that, even while I was in the middle of ironing one of her blouses, she had the nerve to criticize me for not doing things.
"I'm not making criticisms," she retorted, "they're comments".
"They sounded a lot like criticism to me," I replied.
Neither of us were at our best, I'd say.
Not much was said before bedtime when she went to bed with the little on as usual.

The next day, she was warmer to me. We took our son to the big amusement park here, and we had a great time, but she was still fairly aloof, preferring to let me go on the rides with our son.  Once, though, while our son was on a ride, she came up to me, gave me a big hug and a long kiss on the lips and said, "I was us to go back to how we used to be".

I was lost for words and just stood there taking the hug and the kiss.  Our son finished his ride at that point and so the focus turned back on him.

That night she invited me to join her upstairs. That's code for sex.  I said no, thanks, I'm tired.  I really was. And besides, I don't think I'm ready to jump into the sack with someone who has been so unfriendly to me for so long. I'm going to need more time.  I'm also conflicted about whether I really want to be in the marriage.

So I spent the evening on my own in the living room downstairs and when I went to bed, she was in "our" bed. Just I was going to get in, our son woke up, then she got up to get him back to bed and she never came back to my bed.

So it seems that the individual T session had an effect. My bet is that the T said that the relationship will die if it continues without intimacy, so she's trying her best.  Still not quite able to spend the night with me.  My idea of intimacy, though, is two people spending time together, talking, laughing, enjoying each other's company and maybe sex as a result.  Not the other way round.

The ice between us has thawed to a certain extent.  But I'm not breaking out the champagne.

We have a joint session planned for Thursday evening.

How do you plan to address the finance file?

FF

I will not raise the issue of the money files unless I have to. I don't want to kick that wasp nest if I don't need to.
My idea is that if she has an issue or accuses me of something, I'll just say "Go get the folder, and show me where the problem is, suggest how we can fix it and we'll discuss it."
As you say, let her do the work.

It seems that the T really did have an effect last Friday.  Mrs Dragon72 seems to have moved into "our" bedroom and has been talking to Dragoncito about how he's got his own room now.  She actually spent the whole night in "our" bed for the first time in literally years. 

Wow!  That's awesome... .

I'm happy for your that there is an apparent shift in things.

My advice is to let the MC lead the next session... .if finance files don't come up... .I likely would raise them.  However... .if by the follow on session they haven't come up, that may be worth an email or call to MC to ask her to bring it up... .

That's a really big "loose end" to leave out there.  My advice is to leave a door open for her to "exit"... .and say "i'm good with things... " and not shame her about not looking through the files.

FF

How do you feel about her moving back into the bedroom?

What has your kid said about having his own room?

FF

I am happy that she has moved back.  It's way better for our son to be on his own, and way better for him to see that married couples sleep in the same bed.  Hopefully her physical proximity to me for a few hours at least, even if they are spent asleep, might help to repair the emotional bonds between us as a couple too.  But I dnon't expect miracles overnight.

She still goes to bed early at the same time as our son, albeit in a different bed now, and leaves me to spend the evening on my own.  I leave the house for work a half hour before she even wakes up, so there's still no "just her and me" time in our lives.

I think our son is quite happy about the idea of sleeping alone.

Having said all this, last night (only night #2 of the New Order of Things) our son came into our room at 2.50am to tell us about fire trucks (his favorite things) and so she put him back in his bed and spent the rest of the night with him. 

I have a strong suspicion that she will go back to his bed more often now until it becomes all the time. That has happened in the past when she tried to move back in with me.  She will come up with excuses like "our son needs me" or "it's too noisy in that room".

Hmmm... .practical things.

Why take him back to bed?  Send him by himself... .perhaps even practice it during the day.  Walk in... .get in bed and stay there after a quick talk with mommy and daddy.

Or... you take him back to bed... .pat his back for 2 min and leave.

Also... .she has "made moves towards you"... .and is in your room again.  Why not "make a move towards her" and go to bed when she puts son to bed.

Even if it's not sex, perhaps cuddle... she falls asleep and then you can quietly go do your night owl thing... .or perhaps you get more sleep.

Personal story:  I'm a morning person... so I would usually get up and do stuff alone in the morning, read... post here... .drink coffee... I really enjoyed that time.

My wife would sleep fitfully or wake up and "stew" for a while that she was alone in bed... .and then get up and turn the flamethrower on me (usually)

Well... .P pushed me to alter what I can control.  I control where I am and what I do... .and the relationship is bound to change.  So... .I stay in bed a lot longer now.  I wake up, get rid of my sleep gear (long story) and will spoon or cuddle until it's time for her to go to work, at which point she gets up and quickly gets ready and departs... .

My wife is a "touch" person for love language... .this change in my schedule... that  I control has had a massively good impact on the "temperature" in our home.

No... didn't fix everything... .but much less flamethrowering in the morning.

FF

Last night Mrs D didn't even spend a second in our bed last night.  Went to bed with the little one and never left.  Just as I predicted.

T session for both of us together this evening.

I would suggest "staying neutral" and focusing on the positive... that you really enjoyed the affection she displayed and the closeness of her being with you... and you were disappointed that it changed back.

Counseling is a great place for practical discussions... ."I was thinking... how about if I put him back to bed in middle of night... if he gets up.  How about we try going to bed at same time for a week and see what we think (express this as you "giving up" your night owl habit for the r/s)

I think there will likely be lots of emotion or other information you can get from her response.

Likely informative for the T as well.

Listen... .she is obviously more comfortable with adult-child intimacy and not so much with adult-adult (at least it seems that way to me)... .at some point that will need to be talked about.
FF

"she is obviously more comfortable with adult-child intimacy and not so much with adult-adult (at least it seems that way to me)... .at some point that will need to be talked about."

I know how she will address that issue.  The master bedroom is noisy due to the nearby busy street.  She will say that it's too much to bear.  And for that it's for that reason alone, she sleeps in our son's room.

I'm hardly a night-owl.  I'm in bed at 9.30 most nights, occasionally as late as 10pm.  I don't like the idea of going to bed when she does (before 8pm) as I feel that I want at least some of my work-week day when I am not at work , not in bed and kid-free.  That last bit is important to me. I'm a school teacher: 7am-5pm is spent with schoolkids, 5pm-8pm is with my son. I need at least an hour of my day in adult-world. Besides, she goes to sleep as soon as she goes to bed anyway, so she's hardly scintillating company.

Propose it anyway... spend 10 -15 minutes with her... .when she goes to sleep... get up and do your thing.

Don't push hard... but more of a "you "moved towards me" and I want to do the same for you"... ."for us".

Not permanent... .week or two (don't make hard dates... stay open)

The point is to show that you are max flex... .and let her either be the "stonewall" or let her make small moves.  

Hint:  I really do think you will get your "me time" at night.

Your thinking is sound... .but in my opinion, your priorities aren't (hope that makes sense)... .give up some "me time" (or propose it) for the benefit of the relationship... .trust me on this... .it will be a tool you can hand the T.

FF

It was quite an interesting session.

Up until this evening's T session there had been a bit of a thawing in relations between us, but now it's back to winter in northern Greenland frosty.

During the session my wife started to exhibit many BPD traits: unstable sense of self, fear of abandonment, paranoid delusions, inability to trust etc.  And the T focused on them for a while, including a lot of time suggesting that sleeping with junior and never spending quality time with her husband was unhelpful in the extreme in the relationship. Mrs D didn't like being put in the spotlight for HER behavior, since I'm the source of all her ills.

Then later, the T rightly called the dysfunctional dynamic of our relationship.  The T described me as the teenager who never quite faces up to his responsibilities and who resents his controlling mother. And she described Mrs D as the controlling mother who never lets me grow up.  Pretty harsh on both of us, but astutely on the money. 

My homework is to be less of a teenage son and more of a husband, and hers is to be less of an angry bossy mom to me, and more of a playful, loving wife.

"Yes, absolutely! The T's nailed it! I've got some work to do in drawing boundaries, detachment from her emotions, and looking after #1", I thought. 

But Mrs D was visibly angry, and resentful of having a share of the blame and bitter that the T might be suggesting that instead of me handing her back the control in the marriage like she would like, the T was implying that I should stick up for myself a bit more.

The ride back home was a silent one except for about half way through when Mrs D said, " You know what I think? I think that we should not go on with this relationship".

She clearly had a strong emotional reaction to a development she doesn't like and her answer is to say she wants to throw in the towel.  I didn't answer. It wouldn't have had any positive effect whatever I would have said. She was letting off steam, so I let her.

In the session yesterday, lot of time was spent talking about things which doesn't exist, or at least only in my wife's head.

1. My theft of the family's money. The subject of the finances folder came up.  It appears that she barely glanced at it, complaining that she didn't want to see just the credit card statements, she wanted to see the checking account statements.  They were in the folder too. What's more, I pulled out of my pocket there and then the latest month'c CC and checking statements on bank letterheaded paper. She just argued that she wanted to go to the bank and witness the bank staff handing over the statements. Both the T and I were incredulous at just how lacking in trust my wife was being, even when confronted with proof.

2. My wife is still insisting that I have bugged her phone and that I track every move.  I was asked again by the T if this is true. I said no.  My wife was asked for evidence for what she believes about me bugging the phone. She just threw in tangents and distractions and could not provide any reasonable cause. I asked my wife if the possibility exists that I am not surveilling her.  The T backed me up with the question.  My wife conceded that yes, it is a possibility, but... .My wife asked me to hand over my phone so she could check it.  I said no, that's a boundary. I won't do that, and i won't expect her to do that.  We both deserve privacy.

In case 1 I JADEd.  In case 2, I didn't.  She remains equally convinced of my guilt, but at least the T got to see it. 

Shortly after, the T asked us both if either of us has a fear that the other will abandon.  I said a simple No, I don't. My wife said that she has no problem if I go off with someone else.

It was quite an eventful session.

OK... .the "paranoia" piece here is very much like what I faced in my marriage for a while.

Money was part of it... .a harem and other families (like I was a polygamist) was most of it.  

I think you should let this go for a few more weeks before "switching" to validation of a fear... vice dealing with the truth.

The truth is invalidating and will likely increase the paranoia.

I "dealt with the truth" for a couple of years... .and made things worse and worse.  It's not about the truth... .it's about her extreme emotions

The truth does matter... .but be succinct... .and make her do the work

What does "make her do the work" mean... .no more bank statements from you... .zero

She can go to the bank... .she can go to the "central office" of the bank... because you know that you have the "locals" under your power... .

Seriously... .she can call... she can go... .she can present you with EXACTLY what she is concerned about... .STOP producing "evidence" for her... .let her produce it

Hint... she won't.  

Now... if you T wants you to do "one more"... .then fine... .but I would express trepidation... .and I would ask for a specific explanation of why, given what you have done so far, you should do more, when she won't point out the issues she is "precisely" concerned about.

I think the "dynamic" thing is very interesting... the teen and harsh Mom.  Let me think about that.  :)id the T say anything about you "allowing" yourself to be "judged" by "Mom".  Part of growing up is no longer being "under Mom's authority"

Anyway... .I've got to go feed the wee ones.

Good job not "taking the bait" on divorce... .ending the relationship.  In my opinion... .your number one priority is to reflect on paranoia and have a strategy and tactics to "not further inflame it"... ."Don't feed the monster"

FF

"What does "make her do the work" mean?... .no more bank statements from you... .zero"
I'm not really sure that's fair.  I think she ought to have the right to see the family's finances. A married couple ought to be equal partners. I would expect to be able to see her bank statements if our breadwinning roles were reversed.

"She can go to the bank."
Having just said that she should have the right to see my statements, I don't think she ought to be able to go to the bank and demand access to my records. And rightly the bank would not grant it.

I think you're right in the sense that I shouldn't desperately offer her my financial statements as a way of trying to prove my innocence and honesty. That's JADEing and, as you say, it only makes things worse. But i must balance that with the idea that she should have certain rights in our partnership to know things.

The third way is to maintain the folder of bank statements, let her know that it is available to her, and in the event that wild accusations fly, I'll just say that I will happily have a conversation about it if she can provide concrete evidence. And leave her to do the sleuthing.

As for the dynamic thing, I think the T was right about the roles were playing.  Yes, she did mention the fact that I am allowing myself to be judged by Mom in that she said that I am choosing to engage in certain behaviours that prove that (i.e. doing loads of housework while wife's out of the house, not because they need to be done, but so that when she comes back she doesn't say angrily "Why didn't you do this/that?".  I do so much simply to avoid her getting angry with/disapproving of me. That has to stop.

Our other homework is to look for another (quieter) place to live, so that my wife doesn't have the excuse of noise as a reason to sleep in Jr.'s bed.

I had made an assumption... .which I believe is incorrect.  Bad FF for assuming.

So... she doesn't have access to get the records on her own... .because it is not her account... right?  It's only yours.

Yeah... if I'm right about that... don't change that... .  It took me as a$$ton of money to figure out to keep my wife out of my finances.

Anyway... do some thinking.  Is there a way that you can make her "go through the motions" of compiling evidence... .without you doing the work... .and without her having the ability to "run off" with the money or otherwise causing havoc with your finances.

Perhaps just having the binder with the "raw" statements will help.  Let her create her own spreadsheets... .

She has already says yours are a fraud... .therefore... why would she want to ever use them?  (you have to be careful not to say this like a smartass)

You have the gist of this... ."don't prove yourself innocent"... .(it can't be done)... .let her do the work to "prove you guilt"... (which she can't) and let her deal with the frustration that facts don't equal her world.

Let her connect the dots

FF

Don't feel bad about making that assumption.  My wife is a deeply mistrustful person.  She doesn't do cards or bank accounts. She prefers cash. 
The account is mine alone.  I did offer a joint account and now in hindsight I'm very glad she didn't take me up on it.  She did have an account while she was working as a secretary before our son was born, and I offered back then to make deposits into her account, but she preferred cash.  That makes it safer for me at least.
I'll make the binder with the printed statements available to her. I'll also make available to her printouts of my spreadsheets that I maintain.  If she really wanted to, she could then see exactly where the $50 cash withdrawal last Wednesday ended up getting spent.  That's ample transparency.  Nobody could accuse me of trying to hide anything.
However I'm not going to pull the binder out if she dysregulates about money.  I'll just say, "Have a look at the binder and if you find anything untoward, show me what you've got or call the police."

If she's right that I'm a ratbag, why would she want to be with a crimina? She's wrong, so why do I put up with this level of mistrust?

My wife believed I was defrauding the federal government with military travel claims... .she claimed I would come back a couple days early... .have wild sex with my harem and then have them drop me off at the airport... .so it looked like I just flew in.

Of course... I filed my travel claims for the day she picked me up.

So... I figured if I offered her the chance to call the feds and have it investigated... that would end it... .  It only pissed her off more.


She never called.

So... .don't mention the police.  Somehow, I don't think you should discuss an accusation with her... unless she has figures to show you.

Validated her distress... .let her know you are ready to "look" at what she has... .

She knows where binder is... .and she can do that ... .or not.

Listen... .let's get really... anyone can accuse of you anything.  What matters is what can be proven.

It matters that you aren't the one in charge of "proving".

The less you engage and get pissed off... the better.

FF

Hey... .remind me again why she sleeps with your son... ?  What was the reason she came to bed with you a couple nights... and then went back.

Did that get addressed in last session... .or did she smokescreen it?

FF

Her official line on why she sleeps with him is that she needs to get a sound night's sleep, and she can only do that in our son's room as it in the (fractionally) quieter side of the house.  She also says it's because he wakes up in the night and "needs her".

 
Ok... .so... why sleep with you two nights and then go back?  Did that get talked about?

What was the purpose of a night or two with you?

FF

She was "making an effort"

Yes, I did see her making an effort with sleeping in bed, and the sexual advance.  You weren't prepared to reciprocate, but I can see how your non response would be distressing and demotivating to her.

I agree 100%.  Your point is a very valid one.

I spent most of the weekend at work. I was writing the final reports for a course I have been taking in Middle Leadership in Education and had to submit them on Monday so it took up a lot of my weekend.  When I was home, my wife seemed ok. She even picked me up from work on Sunday afternoon as a surprise to drive me home. Although that particular act of kindness was probably more about her making sure I was where I said I was.

That evening, my wife said that she had been out looking at new mattresses for our son's bed.  She said she found some queen mattresses, some of which she liked, some not.  The ones she liked were quite expensive.  I don't think she really "gets" two things: a) we don't have cash to splash b) that's not her bed.

One of our homeworks from the T was to look for a new place to live, so that Mrs D wouldn't have the excuse of noise not to sleep in the marital bedroom.

A few months ago it seemed likely that I could move into a that a now ex-coworker had left.  Where I work, the ex-pats have their rent paid by our employer.  That house and my house share the same landlord, so it would be a simple trade, I thought.  At first our HR department was all for it, so I told my wife who was excited as the house would have been perfect.

Then as I pressed for news on the move, our HR lady got less and less communicative, saying that there were "complications" and kept not giving me an answer.  Lately her line has been "we're prioritising properties for incoming new staff". As close to a no as you can get. So I told my wife. But I think she was still hoping it would actually happen.

So, yesterday my wife told me to go and get an aswer from the HR person. So I did.  It's a no.

When I got home, I got the silent treatment and a vibe that said she was angry with me.  I asked what's up.  "You don't want to move into that house!", she barked at me. 
"No, I really would have liked to move into that house, but my employer has other plans," I replied.
Silent treatment for the rest of the evening. She even gave our poor son the silent treatment because she was unable to switch between angry at me and nice to son.

I'm sick of living with a baby.  I'm very near to ending this sham of a marriage.

T session tomorrow.

Wow. That was a helluva T session!

She showed herself to be the most delusional mistrusting person in the world, even when confronted with rock solid proof!

OK... I'll take the bait... .

I'm guessing this was about the money... right?

FF

It was about the money - refused to accept that I was being open and honest in spite of statements, records and receipts.

It was about the house which I wanted us to move to, and I have a series of emails showing that I repeatedly asked, nay, begged, my boss to let us move into, but which he denied us. She still insists I never wanted us to move there.

It's about her phone, which she insists was bugged/tracked by me in spite of never having the slightest morsel of proof.

It's about her constantly calling me a liar without any just cause to do so.

It's about her gaslighting me by saying to the T that while I was playing a game with our son to try to teach him how to be a gracious loser, she said that I ran upstairs upset because I kept on losing. It doesn't even make sense!

My wife was doing everything she possibly could to not accept that I might be anything other than a lying monster.

The poor T was struggling to maintain her impartiality. It was obvious that my wife has MAJOR trust issues.  And the homework this week is a joke: we've both got to write on a document on the fridge everything we spend and what we spend it on.  That's what I've been doing for her all the time!

If there are trust issues, they are not going to be cured by proof and evidence.  She needs to learn to accept my word WITHOUT evidence. (Which she never looks at anyway, because that would negate the image that she has of me as the villain).

Her trust issues are fast becoming the straw that will break this camel's back.  I'm not sure how much more I can take being married to someone who thinks I'm an evil villain out to get her.

I gotta say, I'm feeling very blue this morning. And pretty angry too.  Angry at my wife for the way she's split me black. And angry at myself for persisting with this relationship which is doing more damage than good. 

There's a page on here called Characteristics of Healthy Relationships:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships)
It has a checklist:
So, Is Your Relationship Healthy?

A. Can you say what you like or admire about your partner? I got nothing.

B. Is your partner glad that you have other friends? No way! It causes her distress.

C. Is your partner happy about your accomplishments and ambitions? No way! She actively disapproves of my passions.

D. Does your partner ask for and respect your opinions? No way! It's her way or the highway. If I propose something, I'm a "dictator".

E. Does she/he really listen to you? No way! You're kidding, right?

F. Can she/he talk about her/his feelings? No way! She can't even deal acknowledge her own feelings to herself.

G. Does your partner have a good relationship with her/his family? With HER family, yes. With mine, No way!

H. Does she/he have good friends? No. Just distant friends.  The only people she confides in are her family, but even then I don't think she really opens up.

I. Does she/he have interests besides you? Do reading about celebrity plastic surgery, TV soaps and our son count?

J. Does she/he take responsibility for her/his actions and not blame others for her/his failures?  It's never her fault, always someone else's. Usually mine.

K. Does your partner respect your right to make decisions that affect your own life?  No way! See Answer D.

L. Are you and your partner friends? Best friends?  I would never treat a friend the way she treats me. So no. I would never be as tolerant of abuse from a friend of mine.


Why would any sane person persist in such an unhealthy situation?

There's another page on here called Leaving a person with BPD:
www.https://bpdfamily.org/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html

It lists beliefs that can "get us stuck":
1) Belief that this person holds the key to your happiness
Not in my case. She holds the key to my misery and she uses the key a lot.
2) Belief that your BPD partner feels the same way that you feel
She pretty much always demonstrates the polar opposite feelings from my own
3) Belief that the relationship problems are caused by you or some circumstance
The relationship problems are because she is incapable of empathy, trust, intimacy and love.
4) Belief that love can prevail
I gave up hope on that years ago
5) Belief that things will return to "the way they used to be"
ditto
6) Clinging to the words that were said
It's been so long since I have heard words worth clinging on to
7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard
I think I get it now. She's deaf. Metaphorically.
8) Belief that absence makes the heart grow fonder
I stay away from her a few minutes/hours on purpose when we're apart, to give my heart time to heal, not grow fonder
9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.
She's capable of looking after herself.
10) Belief that they have seen the light
She's damaged to the core. She's not going to see the light.

True codependents seem to be characterised by the need to have the BPD/Narc/Addict in their life.  I feel more like a prisoner who doesn't know how to escape.

I'm fast approaching burnout.  I don't think I have the energy to absorb all her hate any more.

I would set yourself a limit of a couple more sessions before directly raising these issues with the therapist.

Perhaps each of you can have more individual time.

Once an "issue" has been identified that is blocking the relationship from healing... .progress either needs to be made or... .

I get it... the "or" is unpleasant to think about.

FF

We've done 9 sessions so far (two of them individual - 1 each).

The T said near the beginning that we'd set a limit of 10, but nothing has been mentioned of that since.

Yesterday was getting circular right up to the end of the session, so we kinda left in a hurry to stop the conversation getting ridiculous. "You don't trust me even when I show you I'm trustworthy!", "I can't trust what you show me to prove you're trustworthy because you're untrustworthy!"

So we left in a hurry and forgot to set a date for the next T session.

Hi Dragon.  I'm late to the meeting here
But, what are your T goals, if any?
Are you trying to rebuild marriage, manage the day to day better, or see for yourself - and then have someone else tell you she's nuts - and you can leave?
All options are fine, I just am trying to get a gist of your direction.
Once you see your goal, how to proceed will be apparent.  And, there's not harm in seeing a L about specifics in divorce and separation.  I did, and that kind of kept me married and hanging-on, for financial and child custody reasons.  It's better to know ahead of time. 
As I say, fix the leaking roof when it's sunny outside.

That's interesting... .  I like that...

So... .what did the T have to say... about what your wife had to say?  Or did she address it?

I would continue to set more T appointments, but with an internal limit for you on how many "circles" you are willing to go around before asking.

"What specifically can you advise me to do to be open about family finances?"

"What specifically can my wife do in order to be more trusting of family finances?"

My guess is that individual work is in order before attempting any more joint work (after a couple more joint sessions)

Also... .at any point has T or you asked your wife... "What specifically do you see as the solution... "  and listen... .

Hopefully let the T prod her to do/say something more than "he's dishonest"

FF

I think I'm just about ready throw the towel in with the marriage.

"What specifically can you advise me to do to be open about family finances?" I am as open as I could possibly be. As open as a husband should be with his wife.

"What specifically can my wife do in order to be more trusting of family finances?" How about starting by assuming I'm innocent until PROVEN otherwise?

I'm done with taking the blame when it's her with the skewed approach to reality.  I agree I have my own mental issues to deal with: specifically the feeling that I should put up with all of her abuse. And yes it is abuse.

You've caught me on a very angry day.  I'm clinically fed up.

Then Clinically fed up it is then :)
I know that in my case, once I was able to look at a list of behaviors and see the definitions form that I was in an abusive relationship (and not wholly innocent myself) it changes my mindset.  Being able to identify as an abuse victim, and hopefully turn that to abuse survivor - no longer a victim, is game changing.

Hi, Dragon. I think you are seeing what many of us have experienced when trying marriage counseling with a BPD spouse. It's helpful for illuminating the problems caused by distorted thinking and emotions, but not for solving them.

It's a bit validating to have this outside person (the T) see the same problems that you see, right? But, you didn't go to counseling to have some outsider pat you on the back and say "You're right, she's nuts!" That doesn't get you anywhere.

Can the therapist encourage your wife to enter a DBT program? That might be the best possible outcome from MC -- to get a referral backed by a (possibly) trusted expert for a therapeutic intervention that might actually help.

That was the general purpose of those questions.

Perhaps the MC would even put that in writing... .I think Dragon should do (fill in the blank) and then try MC again in 6 months.  I think Mrs Dragon should do (fill in the blank) and return to MC in 6 months.


Dragon... .one of the things you have seen me say many times is "stay big picture". 

You have said many times you are ready to toss in the towel on your marriage.  That's completely understandable... given what you regularly experience.

You ARE NOT ready to toss in the towel on your son.   And you are going to need lots of professional help with him, regardless of the status of your marriage.

If you have a school psychologist saying (fill in the blank) and Mrs Dragon refuses and you say yes.

Then

You have a MC saying (fill in the blank) and Mrs Dragon refuses and you say yes.

And you have a pediatrician saying (filling the blank) (you get the picture).

You need to have professionals help you maximize your influence on your son and minimize your wife's distorted view of the world.

Thoughts?

FF

Yes, ff, those professionals have made those recommendations, but Mrs D has her stock answer which is that she sleeps in Jr's room because of the noise in the master bedroom, and the bad guy is Dragon72 for not moving to a new house.
The professionals have replied, "Yes, Mrs D, but you really shouldn't be sleeping with your son"
Mrs D "But my health suffers if I have to be in a room where I can't sleep".
End of conversation.

I'm not sure how the court system works where you are at... .but at some point they won't end the conversation. 

They'll go with with parent looking for solutions in the best interest of the child the court is considering.

At least I hope that's how it works down there.

Common sense says there are tons of things that can be tried... .other than sleeping with your child, to get a good night's sleep. I have sleep disabilities and I'm very sensitive to noise.

So... I am sympathetic to a point with your wife, yet from her described behavior she doesn't seem to have made a good faith effort towards any solution other than sleep with jr.

Which... honestly... honestly search your heart here... .is it about the noise?  I don't think it is.

FF

No heart searching required. You and I both know full well that it's not just about the noise. And if we move to another house with no noise at all she'll still continue to have an inappropriate relationship with our son and with me. 

You're right, I have mentioned a few times recently that I want out.  I know now that hoping that she will be a good life-partner and mother is not a realistic hope.  And I'm also realising that I, me, the person whose needs and priorities I have put last all my life, deserve better.  Yes, my son is an urgent priority, but I'm going to be less of a good father to him if I am a depressed, beaten and resentful man.

So... .I hope this will encourage you that there are possibilities.

Lately if you look at my posts... .I'm a bit in the dumps over my marriage.  New schedule... .(she is teacher... off for summer)... so we have a lot more time together... which isn't the best.

Anyway... .over time... I've emphasized my relationship with my kids and de-emphasized my r/s with my wife.  

I have wonderful... absolutely wonderful times with my kids.  I spent a day this last weekend with my 17 year old travelling to check out a 68 mustang he was interested in.  He wanted help evaluating it.

My wife said some nasty things about the trip and priorities... .and I mostly ignored them and had a wonderful time.  Wife seemed to get over it... .once she figured out she couldn't control it.

There are others on here that have chosen to separate.  I've chosen to stay together.  But we've all had to come to terms with "what" we are or were married to and made kids with.

Now... .it's certainly possible and probable that you wife will make some improvements (she does try here and there).  If that is enough... only you can tell.

Back to those "specific" questions I encouraged you to ask... .I'm serious... .ask them... that way.  Press the T for a plan.  

I would give serious consideration to expressing yourself about how you feel about her accusations and that YOU will take action... regardless of what she does.  (your values... .not a threat)

So... .in my marriage... .I will only discuss $$ or serious money issues in a therapists office.  My wife will only go to preachers... .therefore... .we don't discuss money.

However... I was the one that took action... or took a stand.  By and large... .money "arguments" are over.  

Who knows if something like that will work for you... .but the message you need your MC to help "deliver" is... .you will resolve money issues through talk and agreement (in the real world... not fantasy world)... .or... .you will take action (and that action is to STOP discussing money)

The current way it "happens" is destructive for you and your marriage... and you will end that.

FF