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Today I was listening to audio motivational tapes and great scholars and came across something that boosted my understanding of why most relationships fail with borderlines.It will also make the non BPD’s on this forum  feel a bit better I’m sure about what they went through,are going through and will go through.I will not direct quote the audio video because I don’t want to plagerize anything .

What is real love:
A young man says to an older fisherman ,why are you eating that fish? The man responds I love fish! , You love fish? The young man responds ! That’s why you took it out of the water killed it and ate it? You don’t love fish , you love what the fish gives to you because you like the taste .
That is what most love is today honestly fish love if you will  ,when couples get together they look for aspects that compliment them in the other or things they need both men and woman.When you look at the big picture it’s all about us and what we can get for the services we provide back no matter how minor or major they are.(self gratification)Thats why people who lose jobs or become sick or something equal like becoming disabled end up often more than not divorced or leaving the relationship.

Back to the question what is true love:The answer what most people think  is you give to those to whom you love but the real answer is you love those to whom you give.The point is if I give something to someone I’ve invested myself in them,and since self love is a given  as everybody loves themselves ,there is now a part of me in you that I love.So hence true love is a love of giving not a love of receiving.To finish where I’m going with this , people (human beings ) with borderline personality disorder can’t and don’t love themselves .Its not about how much love we give them ,it can never come back the other way , I hope those of you who read this simple but accurate portrait of what true love is understand the futility of expecting love back? But it DOES NOT mean you can’t love them ? Understand? I love my exGF and even now knowing I’ll never ever get anything close to that back, it doesn’t mean it was a mistake or is a mistake ,it just means I  truely love someone ... .is that necessarily a bad thing or a lesson learned in life that we don’t always get our way no matter how hard we try.Ill take it as a lesson learned to my precious ego that no win scenarios exist .

I hope this helps some of you because it did for me.

Hi Shawnlam   

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on a truly worthy topic.  :)

Yes; sometimes giving something that makes you feel good the description of "loving it"--versus in the sense of an intimate relationship--that can be a bit misleading. I do actually love fish--keeping and eating.  :)

OK.

Yes!

Hi Shawnlam

I dont believe that true altruism exists at least, its existence borders on rare to the point of being close to non existence.

I didnt enter the r/s because I wanted to take on a thankless task, I was looking foward to what looked like the potential of sharing myself and having my needs reciprocated as best as possible.

At the start, it was like I was in net-deficit, I was getting all this "love" in tsunami form, overwhelming to me, intoxicating. I was reciprocating it, but she set the pace at a high level.

eventually towards the end, I was getting piecemeal scraps and there was no end it seemed to trying my best and beyond to try and fulfill what - no fault of my own - was impossible to ever reach.

In terms of loving my ex, I desperately wanted to and could have. I was infactuated, the basis of the connection to begin with. I appreciated and still do, a multitude of aspects of her personality, even though from what I learned in hindsight, there is the mirroring aspect, she is someone who made me feel amazing regardless and thats what I wanted. She fulfilled a need and I filled her needs. Nothing wrong yet at this point.

but when it comes to the concept of love beyond the "infactuation" form, there was a breakdown of trust and respect by the things she did that for me are unreconcialable. This was 3 months into 3 years. The other 2 years 9 months was telling myself I loved her and that by trying hard, things will work out in the end "as hard as I might try".

So it comes down to that definition, I still feel some infactuation for my ex (despite this being eroded to a certain extent by what has happened) and infactuation is a form of love, I have residual strong emotions that she can still induce, but not the love built on mutual trust and respect that I was yearning for in the r/s. for that I will have to search elsewhere and I relate to what you said, yes, sometimes we "lose" regardless how hard we might try and that can seem hard to accept, but I wont let this experience jade me into trying again, at the end of the day we met someone with a condition that to love them beyond infactuation was destined to fail from day one.

I think I ended up for 2y 9 months falling in love with the "idea" of falling in love with her, as the best next alternative.

All I can point out is, please dont let this experience jade you into not trying again, which I can understand how easily it has the potential to. There is someone for everyone out there.

The quote in context:


Date: 4-2017(https://bpdfamily.com/book-covers/spacer.gif)Minutes: 2:04
True love explained | Abraham Twerski

Rabbi Dr. Abraham J. Twerski enrolled in the Hebrew Theological College of Chicago and was ordained a rabbi in 1951. In 1953 Twerski enrolled at Milwaukee's Marquette University, and subsequently graduated from its medical school in 1960.  he is 87 years old.

Good to see that you are reaching.  :)

Rabbi Twerski is explaining a problem of many romantic relationships... .people enter them for selfish reasons... .to be served by the partner. He is quite clever is his play on words: [self]fish love

In the video, Rabbi Twerski explains a philosophy of Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler, an Orthodox rabbi, Talmudic scholar, and Jewish philosopher of the 20th century.

“Too much of what is called love is selffish love. An external love is not on what I’m going to get but I’m going to give. We had an ethicist rabbi Dessler, who said, ‘People make a serious mistake in thinking that you give to those whom you love, and the real answer is you love those to whom you give.’ His point is if I give something to you, I’ve invested myself in you. Since self-love is a given, everybody loves themselves, now that part of me has become in you, there’s part of me in you that I love. True love is a love of giving, not a love of receiving.’

Shawn, do you think your love for her in these last 5 months has been more of a "giving love" or more of a "[self]fish love"?

As for your personal corollary regarding people with BPD... .that they are incapable of love... .it may be stretching this old adage too far and missing the most important point... .is my (or your) relationship based on an unhealthy level of selfishness needs (either or both participants).  

It definitely started as fish love for sure 100%.I wanted the wife,kids family life and she was my answer as I had saw her as my soulmate.As the relationship progressed I transferred from fish love to giving love which also kinda failed because she not just didn’t accept it,it spooked her.That tipping point was after the abortion, the day I told her I couldn’t risk her life and wouldn’t for a child it flipped a switch in her.Im not sure if that flipped switch was her disappointed I didn’t accept her gift or if that switch was her realizing I loved her too much for comfort ... .but I garantie it did something because from that week on it was never ever the same between us.

Today I know it’s not fish love because she won’t or can’t love me back anywhere near what I have for her.But I love her for who she is good and bad and she knows this ,she’s said as much to me and I think it bothers her... .but I can’t fake not loving her either “trust me I tried”.

Giving is not so much about giving what we think the other person needs... .its about giving what they feel they need.

Does that sound right?

When she was engulfed or conflicted, what did she express that she needed? Anger/threats/breakups or patience/space/understanding/caring?

When she realized she was pregnant, what did she express that she needed? Your decision on whats best for her... . or let's talk about where we go from here and work this out together, hand in hand... ..
Note: I'm not suggesting you should (or should not) have married and had a baby... .I'm only discussing how the decision was handled and supported


Maybe some of the women will comment here.

Remember empathy? Putting yourself in the other persons shoes and seeing what it looks like from her vantage point? Did it possibly look like this:

Wow, I'm pregnant and my relationship with Shawn is in limbo. Shawn pushed way too hard to advance the relationship and I asked if we could slow down he through a fit. I backed off. Now I'm pregnant. What do I do? This is bad timing. Let me think. <withdrawl for a few days>  OK, I need to tell him and we need to do right by everyone.  I know he wants a family and kids. I'm going to step up. I can do this. We can get married and have the baby.

When this was going on your anger peaked, you broke up with her, and when she told you, you said ":)efinitely no, it's best for you". She ended up in an abortion clinic with someone else consoling her as she went through the dark emotions of aborting a baby.

What happened after the abortion?  Have you gotten together to talk through it and how it went down and how she feels in her heart about giving up a child?

Do you think this sequence of events was a game changer?


As I said in another thread, this is unfinished business, burning embers below the surface that will eventually flame up if you two get back together.

You might want to think more about what she has gone through. Will she agree that this was a "giving love"?

Yeah I have regretted everyday since that abortion , I know I screwed it up from a “well handled “ position.I honestly didn’t want her to risk death but I never really asked her what she wanted .I realized this after but what can I do about that now right? The words “ it would t take much convincing for me to keep it” and her bright blue eyes looking at me when saying it , tears a piece of my heart away every time I think of it .BUT what has allowed me the “somewhat comfort” of living with myself from that point on is her emotional instability.Ive said to myself even though shawn you totally handled that wrong, was it a blessing in disguise? Could you imagine bringing a baby into this world with someone so highly unstable ?Forget you,forget her,what would you be doing to that child ? He/she would not have had a “normal” life in anyway .
It’s a good thing I stopped booze 100% every time I talk about this pregnancy issue it kicks me into a depressed state of having taken a life ,not having the child I always wanted,putting her through all that sh$& and to this day every time I look at her it all floods back.

Agreed, you probably haven't been in an unselfish love mode in this relationship. But you can change that. There are going to be more disappointments. There are some complex things still in the closet.

Knowing what you know now and keeping with your theme of unselfish love, what would have been an unselfish response? If you had a do-over, what would you do? What have you learned from this experience and Rabbi Dr. Twerski?

Doing these postmortems really helps us grow.

Honestly geez ... .I’ve run that speech in my head endlessly obviously playing both sides.I think frankly I would have just sat her down on my lap “she liked that” looked her in the eyes and asked her , ____ what do you want to do ? Knowing her I’d of gotten a bounce back question ,what do you want babe? Where in I’d of answered, you know I love you, you know I wanted a kid , but I also know you get very sick “life threatening sick”.I can’t lose you, but it’s not just my choice here what do you want ? All I can say is either way I’ll be there to support your choice love. That’s pretty much what I would of said on a do over.

Now a harder question... .

Given this has happened, how is she injured now? How does she see you? How can you help heal that in the coming months?

Hi Shawnlam,

These are some very deep and good questions that Skip has asked.

I have a couple questions too. How long ago was the abortion, and how many weeks pregnant was she when the abortion took place? If it was recent, there will be a lot of hormones still coursing through her body. That's normal because a woman's body goes through many changes to sustain a pregnancy. Those same hormones will cause a woman's emotions to be a roller coaster. I know because I had three children and have also been around many pregnant moms.

A person with BPD struggles with regulating their emotions to begin with, then to combine a pregnancy and an abortion... .let's just say that there will be deep effects from each one of these, not only on her, but also on you. It is not a quick getting over it. From what you've shared, I hear your struggle as well (with yourself) for this choice.

What options do you have to help you both recover? In my city we have pregnancy centers that offer help for those men and women who have gone through an abortion.

Wools

Hi Shawnlam,
I really like what you said about it not being a mistake to love someone. It is a beautiful thing to be able to go beyond having a relationship that ended and not regretting having loved the person. Being able to love someone regardless of the outcome can only add to one's life treasures. I still love my bp trait ex very much even though I know that I could never be with him because the relationship is toxic for me. Although the outcome was not what I would have wanted I am glad I took the chance and fell very much in love with him. Ending the relationship has helped me grow tremendously.
Love and growth.

Zen606

Good morning, she was 1 month in when her Hyperemesis gravidarum started to kick in.This all took place in February on the 2nd .I talked to my therapist about it and he’s helped me figure out why I still get emotional when I bring that back up.I believe but can’t confirm she s also spoke to her therapist about this to.To heal from something like this takes time ,I don’t know how she feels about this anymore so honestly I’m not sure about her.If I do see her again I won’t bring it up she hates talking about past issues and this would major trigger her.I also never ever spoke about it again it’s just an uncomfortable subject.She did keep using weird comments like “when we have a child he will be beautiful with your blue eyes “ stuff like that which always rubbed me the wrong way so I’d always go quiet... .and kinda silence myself out of the conversation.

Shawn,

This is a thread about a "giving love". Your comment is a lot about you. Not a judgement or criticism, Shawn, I know you are trying. I just want to point it out so you can get a feel for how much of a pivot you need to make to be what you say you want to be.

Of course it is uncomfortable and awkward. Read the many members here that hope, day in and day out, that there ex will understand their pain and take responsibility, admit that they were wrong. Of course its awkward for the exs, so they dismiss and avoid.

Is that the scenario you want to plant and build a relationship on (if this does reunite)?

This subject is going to resurface in difficult times in the future and making amends after she raises the issue that you never wanted to talk about it will be really hard. You have to take it on first for it to be sincere.

I don't think I would barrel into this face to face conversation right now - the timing is not right. I would (my style) send a hand written card that admits I was very wrong, say that I understand how difficult this was on her heart, and that... .

This is not going to just go away. Things like this sit under the surface as burning embers of resentment and as a collection point for every wrong to come.

Anyway, those are my thoughts... .whatever you do, it has to come from deep in your soul and take full accountability with no waiver... .or it will only make matters worse. For example, don't tell her you get tears for your pain, tell her your tears for how she felt being alone in all of this. It's just an example - be authentic.