BPDFamily.com

I gather that when dealing with a pwBPD, ultimatums are useless, since they struggle to control their behavior.  And that's why setting boundaries for yourself is important.

one of our longtime issues centers around my wife frequently accusing me of infidelity.  Generally, she doesn't come right out and say it, but she'll make some sort of weaselly remark in response to something I say or do, like "oh everyone you talked to at work liked that movie?  who exactly?  anyone I should be worried about?

when I get annoyed by this and ask why she still doesn't trust me, and what real evidence does she have for suspecting me of being unfaithful, she tries to play it off as "just asking a question"

and if I react hostilely to this - as I increasingly do because I am really sick of this - it "proves" in her mind that there IS something going on, and she's right to be  concerned.

This really bothers me for a couple reasons:
1) I just don't like being accused of infidelity, and vague attacks on my character and reputation, esp. from my own wife of all people

2) I have to police myself and self-censor, lest I trigger her.  Stories or memories I would like to share or discuss get buried because I don't know how she'll react to them.

3) she makes these allegations in front of my kids, with no concern for what they'll think or feel.  our oldest is definitely with it enough to pick up on the fact that something isn't right between his parents.

pt 2:

yesterday I blew up at her after - out of the blue - she demanded to know why I was looking at my phone. 

it was the middle of the day, and I had just come home for lunch, and to take our son to visit a potentially new school for him, and had to get back to work.

when I started to explain I just got a boatload of new emails and I was seeing what they were about, I got bowled over by angry accusations "can I see them?"  "I am your wife, I have a right to know who you're texting" and then she said "You sure act like someone with something to hide" before slamming the door in my face.

this all happened out of the blue... .  once what was happening sunk in, I was angry.  I exploded at her over the phone, and we spent much of the rest of the afternoon sending angry texts.

I told her she cannot look at my phone anymore, period.

 I guess that's one boundary that's easy to enforce.

I also demanded she apologize and promise to stop making these accusations and allegations, unless she has actual proof.

This one is harder to enforce... .I guess when she starts doing it, I can just leave the room.  but physically avoiding her is not always possible (like if we're on an airplane)

 |iiii   |iiii

Thumbs up for the broad direction you are taking.

Angry texts... .do I really need to ask or say more about this?  It helped the situation... how?


This used to be "most" of my relationship.  Dude... .I kid you not... my wife suspected that I would fly in early from military deployments... .bang other women.  Then I would get dropped off at the airport where my wife would pick me up... thinking I just flew in.

I later introduced my wife to my baby at McDonalds... .where a lady with a baby with my wife's name (which is unique) was playing in playland.  That's how I snuck my baby on my military insurance... .because the names were the same.

Trust me dude... .I'm a effin genius when it comes to being married and having a harem as well.  Whenever you actually want to get something going on the side... send me a PM.


Hotel records, flight records, official military travel reports signed under penalty of perjury... .none of that mattered.

In fact... when I tried to use facts to prove myself innocent... .or "deal with it"... .it actually made the situation worse.

Part of what you did made the situation worse... .pop quiz... .which part?

I challenge you to express the phone boundary as it relates to your values and to the value you place on your relationship with your wife.  Practice here first.

Goal:  One more succinct discussion with your wife about your values and the resulting boundary... .and from then on... enforcement with very little discussion... .and a nonchalant attitude.

Dude... .trust me... .I understand that you just read that and were like "but... but... ."  This stuff is really hard... .you are right to be pissed... .this stuff is exhausting... .

 

Gotta run... .I've not been properly "servicing" my harem lately... .gotta get back to it.  That's hard work as well... .


FF

uh, gee, I'd have to assume the angry texts?

I started out by saying I wanted an apology, and a promise she'd stop doing this nonsense, but when she called up and blamed me for it, I also screamed at her, and when she started to argue who said what,(it's my own fault she accused me of being a cheater for looking at email... .) and told her to "STFU" & "F.O.".  I couldn't help it.  I was so mad that she would just dump that attack on me; I felt like I took a sucker-punch, and wanted to punch back.

I mean, we just made up from our last big fight where the ":)" word was actually mentioned.  we agreed to stay more concerned and mindful of eachother's feelings.  I planned a picnic at the beach and nice dinner for Mother's Day - which went great, and she and my MIL both loved.  We had been having a nice week, and had just taken our son to visit his new school for the fall.  And then as I'm getting ready to head back to work for the afternoon, I'm getting hit with allegations I'm hiding something right in front of my own son.

I'm so tired of it.  

I could see if something happened to make her suspicious.  Fine ask.  but she knows where I am at all times.  Work->home.  if I do go out, I let her know where I'm going (hardware store, grocery store, etc.)  I have no friends or acquaintances outside work in this area (we moved here 2.5 years ago), and I'm not spending time out with other people.  no ex-GFs are around, nothing, and she knows all this.

but it felt really satisfying to punch back.  I hate to admit it.  I wanted her to know that I'm at my breaking point.  

I've given up caring whether she trusts me or not, or trying to address her feelings and concerns.  There's no point to it.  

I want her to understand this, and know that If she's going to continue to fight me, attack me verbally, accuse me of things, etc. she should expect the same hostile & immediate response each time from now on.

You are correct... .my hope and prayer is that you will stop any form of "addressing" these things.  They are her feelings... .let her care for them... or not.  That's your choice.

I'm interested in you caring for your feelings.

Stop telling her where you are going, switch to more broad things.

Stop discussing your phone with her... .100%... .well... .except for one little thing.

IF she asks why... or it seems like the right time... .I want you to be succinct.

"I was deeply hurt by your suggestion of infidelity and my phones involvement."  short pause "Should you desire to reconcile your baseless accusation, I'll consider discussing private details in my phone again."

stop... .no more talking.

Let her connect the dots

She may never... hint... .you are better off.

She may... .hint... her trying to reconcile... even badly... .is good... .you are better off.


Second part of this.

When she starts hinting... ."suggesting" that you are the neighborhood meat store for all the ladies... ."It appears you feel concerned by something... .would you like my reassurances of my feelings for you?"

Do no reassure her... unless she directly asks.  If she tells you she knows how you feel... .bless her heart... .let her connect those dots... don't save her.

But seriously... .if she softens... reassure her... gently.  Listen.

If she hardens... .see above.

FF

Hey Pete, My Ex used to snoop on my phone, too, so I put a password on it.  I think everyone is entitled to their right to privacy and that starts with the phone.  Same for one's email account.  It's about one's independence, privacy and freedom from unreasonable "searches and seizures" as guaranteed by our U.S. Constitution!  That's one of my boundaries.

On another subject, you wrote:


I did this.  Whenever my BPDxW treated me unkindly, I gave it right back to her, twice as bad, with both barrels.  In other words, I fought fire with fire, if not a burning torch.  Yet I don't recommend this approach.  It's better than being a doormat, but it only creates a bigger conflagration.  I found myself stooping to my Ex's level, lowering my standards and behaving in uncharacteristic ways that I wasn't proud of.

So in Phase Three, after being the doormat and then fighting fire with fire, I elected to rise above it through disengagement.  I refused to let her goad me into circular arguments through insults and other personal attacks.  That was my boundary: I would decline to participate in any sort of drama.  I would leave the room, leave the house, or stay at a motel, as necessary.  It was hard at first, yet I taught myself to stay above the fray.  In a way, it was a form of mindfulness, though with I achieved a kind of personal freedom.

I can't tell you what to do, and I don't know what is right for you, but maybe you can draw some pointers from my experience that might be applicable to your situation.

LuckyJim

Here is the thing... .pwBPD have way more practice at this... .than we do.  They will usually "win" in a BPD fight.

"if you roll with pigs... you'll get muddy."

So... .use the analogy that you don't like to get muddy... .and just don't. 

Don't be a doormat either.  The exact words and actions you will use will take a lot of trial and error.

FF

My current husband as well as my ex, both have similar styles of anger. Fortunately my current hubby does not get as out-of-control angry as my ex did and he never does anything even approaching violence, but his face will get red and his voice will boom.

Through what I've learned here, I've been able to usually manage these situations and turn down the temperature before it ever approaches full-blown anger on his part.

My style of anger is icy cold. Anger gets me to be strategic and planning and my expression of it is total disengagement and any dealings with him that are necessary become entirely utilitarian.

Both of us tend to be mindful of our language, so that any interaction if it were transcribed, would appear polite. It's the tone of voice, the facial expressions and the body language that give away our true emotions.

For me, I absolutely hate getting "hot" angry. It makes me physically uncomfortable and it takes a long time for me to recover from that. So I don't. Also I hate the loss of control that comes with it. I have contempt for people who do that to others.

Now, being BPD, he is very affected by my turning into an emotionless robot when I get angry. But I'm not "doing" anything that he can point a finger of blame at. So, I find it very effective and I can stay centered.

Everybody's got different styles, but this works for me.

thanks guys,

I know that controlling my own behavior is on me.  thanks, LJ for the story.  I think our situations have a lot of similarities.

The analogy about wrestling in the mud is a good one.  I need to work on how I respond and not let her drag me down into the mud with her; I can't control how she behaves, but I can control how I react.  That's pretty much the sine qua non here, and I need to memorize that phrase.

 If my kids are present when she attacks me, or rages on, I can only provide a model of how to respond, and, if necessary, address things with them one-on-one later.  

going forward, I've resolved to handle these issues the following way:
1) a request to see my phone/email/social media is a hard "no," with a reminder of why.

2) accusations of infidelity/lack of commitment, if made in a reasonable way, I will respond by asking if she needs reassurance from me, and only then will I provide it if so.

3) if #2 leads to hostility or she is hostile about it outright, I'm simply going to leave the situation to the greatest extent possible.  

I've done #3 a few times already in the last year when I see things going off the rails.  Never about this, which was in my mind a more minor source of conflict between us, but has really put me over the edge.  

Hey Pete, Sounds like a plan.  Yup, I have been in your shoes.

Like how you put this:


Yes, that is the sine qua non.  You nailed it!

LJ

Noo... .there is much more you can do that just provide an example.  Although an example is good... especially for lower level outbursts.

Protect the kids... .


If your wife starts in adult stuff or crazyness... .send you kids to their rooms have the close the doors and let them know you will come get them when the adult talk is over.

Now... .I certainly don't advocate this for every snide remark... but full scale rage... .tossing things... whatever.

Depending on the circumstance it may be time to get them in the car and leave.

My wife liked to have an "audience"... .she would gather kids and inform them of my faults... .yet also her religious thing was I was "in charge" at home and kids had to obey me.

So... I didn't debate the content of what she said... .it was just "adult talk"... not for kids... .kids go to rooms... .I go to another room... my wife gets to talk all she want.  

She just doesn't have an audience.

Yeah... .my wife went batsh*t crazy the first couple times I took away her audience.

After she calmed... I invited her to explain to kids why they should stay... .and she couldn't figure a reason... .she knew i would go public or escalate boundary enforcement... .so... .there hasn't been a "lecture" in a long time... .4-5 months.

Think this through ahead of time.  

FF

well, FF, my kids are young (almost 3 and 4 1/2), and I worry about telling them to "please go in another room right now" will affect them, especially if BPDw views that action as a provocation, and escalates the rage.

so now instead of just telling her I don't agree/approve, and leaving the room myself, we're in a whole shouting match with the kids freaking out.

I don't know.  Maybe I can work it... .have to ruminate on this a little more.

Listen... .I assume you teach your kids to obey Mommy and Daddy... .right?

And I would assume you teach them there are adult things and kids things.

Perhaps you announce this is an adult thing... .if your wife demands they stay and listen... .at least you have clarified what you are dealing with.

Although I doubt she would keep up that attitude long term... .in calmer comments... .do you think she would realize her position is NOT defensible?

Yes... .her "crazy" will take it as a provocation... .

FF

Hey Pete, late to the post as usual I am, .I am right there with you as I too am right in the middle of yet another “conflagration” as Lucky Jim calls it, no not in regards to my harem as FF relates, but something about a severed underground electrical line (long story) that runs about a hundred feet from the house to the water pump, oh yeah, I was using Lucky Jim’s flamethrower last evening , and FF is correct, never a great idea, but you see, after splitting very large oak blocks for firewood all day prior to the hired mans incident with the excavator and the water pump power cable... .,it was my goal  to have a nice hot shower, as no volts AC means no water from pump... .I was determined to override the queen of chaos and the madam of madness on this one, a quick fix was in order, and it was my idea to trench through a myriad of oak tree roots today after Church thus to effect a more permit fix, but no, u/BPD wife had other hair brained ideas, and I used those words exactly as I plunged the screw driver into the dry wall out on the garage whilst troubleshooting with a voltage meter;... .and told her to just go back into the house... .yeah; another “conflagration” for the record book ... .gotta go for now, talk again soon, hang in there Pete,

Red5

I'm gearing up for a storm today.

So a couple days ago my aunt called and said she planned on coming to visit us, as she and my uncle are visiting a nearby town for a trade show.

I told my aunt, "look you can come but things are pretty rough right now." and gave her a little background.  (aunt has experienced my BPDw's rage a couple times before). 

my aunt had apparently told my wife about this planned visit weeks ago, but wife never passed this news on for some reason.  anyways, I guess aunt said she wouldn't say a peep to my wife but would call her and if everything went okay, she'd come.  I guess it did b/c aunt texted me she would see me sunday.

Fastforward to today:

- Wife keeps referring to my aunt as "great aunt" and when I told our oldest son "Aunt B is coming today" made a big show of correcting me and explaining it's his "great aunt."  this seemed odd, as we've always just referred to all aunts and even older family friends as "aunt."

Wife then started really questioning me on how old my own great aunts were when I was born... .yes, some were younger than my current aunt is to our kids.
 
- wife leaves room, then comes back in super happy, like something changed in her... .

UH OH.

- then I sit down to eat my breakfast, and wife sits down next to me and starts painting her fingernails at the table.  "OH SORRY, I CAN SEE THE SMELL BOTHERS YOU."

- then I get a "I'm really just trying to connect with you here.  what are you thinking?  Tell me something."

me (realizing I'm standing on a landmine) "Just thinking about the things I need to finish up before my aunt gets here."

- OH... .OKAY, I'LL LEAVE YOU ALONE THEN.

- wife goes and sits on laptop

so here's what will happen today:

at some point, my aunt will say something my wife takes exception to.  Or decides to take exception to, since it will be something no one else even picks up on

my wife will then explode - waiting for my reaction.  If I don't express the same level of outrage to my aunt that my wife has, I will be accused of "not standing with my wife" and/or "always siding with my family against my wife" and the rest of the visit will be awkward, with wife not speaking to anyone, and everyone else just marking time until the visit is over.

I'm taking bets... .who's in?

your first post, every word is spot on how my relationship went haha

she even made me show her my whole friend list on fb and to justify every female person I had on the list, I was always "the one who cheats" every day

and here we are today... I'm still thinking of her, not interested in anyone, while she's adding friends, her previous stalkers and accepts every stranger to contact her on social media

but, my confrontation to those things and ignoring them by time led to her dumping me, she was probably convinced that "something was going on"
I always thought that her ideas were based on her own needs and fantasies so by logic she thought that I'm doing the same thing

consider yourself lucky that you're not married to her!

In other news, astonishingly we beat the odds and my aunt's visit didn't go off the rails.

It sure started rocky, and looked to be headed that way, but the happy interactions between our kids and my aunt seemed to cause BPDw to forget she was supposed to maintain her "angry and disapproving demeanor" the whole time, and softened a bit.

at dinner, I sat next to my aunt, after my MIL and BPDw sat next to eachother with our kids in between; seating arrangements are often a potentially "doomsday   scenario" kind of decision with pwBPD, so I waited to let her decide where she wanted to sit. 

wife & MIL seemed to be having their own conversation so I was talking to my aunt. at some point wife said "Can you speak up, I can't hear what you're saying over there" and had that unhinged look in her eyes, pupils dilated... . 

WHOA!  here we go! I thought.

but I just said, "Oh sorry, we'll speak up" ... .and as she finished her glass of wine around this time, and seemed to mellow out after that.  

the evening ended more or less fine.

Sometimes you never can tell with them!

Good Morning Pete! & Hope things are better today,

Yes, I can concur, the (FOO) Family interactions can be quite "dicey" sometimes, .oh yes !

A quick war story... .

So Red5 is sitting on the couch last evening, next to his u/BPD wife, they are watching the tube, another re-run of ":)ownton Abbey" is on, .it is Red5's intention to split away, after S31(special needs) is tucked into bed at 21:00, and disappear into his "office" man cave to watch the season finale of "The Terror".

Red5 watches the clock, as he knows his u/BPD wife will "remind" him of what needs to be done prior to his fav show coming on in just about ten minutes... .and then she looks up from the “communal iPad; and casually remarks, “I see you (Red5) got an email from your Brother”, “have you seen it yet”… and “have you read it yet”;  … she repeats… “did you see it yet?”... .you see, u/BPD wife READS ALL of Red5's emails, and as well his Facebook, ... .Red5 responds, “no I did not”, so u/BPD wife goes on to read the entire email chain from Red5’s Brother from the iPad, .T- minus six minutes to “The Terror”… "whew boy'... .&… Red5 thinks to himself, as he struggles to watch the show, listen to u/BPD wife, and as well manage the remaining time till his fav show comes on in the other room, so Red5 gets up and goes into S31 (special needs)’s room, and tucks him into bed, and says his night night prayer with him, and all the while; u/BPD wife is still reading the email(s)… aloud  !

Red5 returns to the living room, and then as he passes by… He notes the time on the big clock again, T-minus three minutes’ till “The Terror”…

She, u/BPD wife goes on to "inform" Red5 that he has “-several-“ notifications in his Facebook feed that some of his "friends" have "liked" several of his posts today... .insert another "whew boy'... .& ".

Red5 continues to watch that sweeping big hand on that clock… T-minus two minutes’ till “The Terror”… and as Red5 struggles with the big hand on the clock, and the seemingly never ending “speed bumps” between himself, and his big screen TV in his “office” man cave… u/BPD wife continues in her need for “explanation” as to who is interacting with him on the Facebook feed…

Then u/BPD wife says, "who his Ghost Rider XXX" (or whoever it was)... .Red5 says; “it is a closed group from one of my old squadrons when I was in the service”, “we share stuff, airplane tail numbers & pics and… war stories so forth and so on”... .then Red5 starts to tell u/BPD wife about what he had posted, but caught himself, and stopped before he even began... .as Red5 remembered a line from Pete’s first post on this thread;

PeteWitsend wrote:
2) I have to police myself and self-censor, lest I trigger her.  Stories or memories I would like to share or discuss get buried because I don't know how she'll react to them.


So... .Red5 simply replied to her (u/BPD wife), as he watches the big hand sweep to the twelve o’clock position on the big clock in the living room, and he then hears his ships bell clock strike off the /First Watch/;… two bells; in his “office” man cave… (DING DING : HMS EREBUS, and HMS TERROR HAVE ARRIVED!)… and then Red 5 says to his u/BPD wife… "some dude I used to know a long time ago in the Silver Eagle squadron"... .then she responds, while looking over her reading glasses… "Facebook is stupid"... ., and then u/BPD wife tells Red5 that he needs to now go into S31 (special needs) room; and ensure that S31(special needs) is ready for bed, Red5 replies to her, “I’ve already done that, he is almost asleep now”… and she acts as though she heard nothing, and then she continues… and tells Red5 that he needs to read his Brothers email and respond forthwith!… the same email from Red5’s email account that she just read to him... .,

P.S. "The Terror" was good, Tuunbaq ate ALL the bad guys… right up till the last two minutes, when u/BPD wife came into the office, and says him (interrupts the final scene), and says, "do you want me to get this on dvd for you"... .Red5 does love her; u/bod wife, but she drives Red5 CRAZY!…

Hang in there Pete!, .and ya’ll have a great day,

Red5

 

I'm going to throw a wrench into this discussion... .let's kick it around... .
(https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z_J2K0fo5oy.JPG)
Is this a "support thread" or a "taking sides" in a marital fight thread (triangulation, drama making (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle))?  

Triangulation is easy and it feels validating, but is it making this situation worse (not rhetorical question)?

So lets take the passive aggressive jealousy stuff on her part. A lot of what we are suggesting here are the very tactics that men who are in affairs use. Does it work? Does it just drive that anxiety below the surface where it festers as resentment and shows up in other ways?

Don't get me wrong. I am a private person and I don't want anyone in my "stuff". I dated a child of an alcoholic parent some time back, who like a pwBPD, has inherent trust issues. She started snooping on my devices when I was sleeping. It's hugely violating.

So her snooping is violating my inherent need for privacy. My hiding stuff from her and shutting down the conversation is exacerbating her trust issues (and is inherently suspicious). Where is the win in this?  Isn't this is the classic communication breakdown cascade Gottman decribes that leads to divorce in 88% of cases ( https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down ).

Is there a better way?

Next kicker... .

(https://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j360/cmsgoboston41/chucknorristrans_zpskr8edkcp.gif)
Antique photo, Chuck Norris

This might be a bit more "tactical" that Skip is interested in... .not sure.

My wife understands that she can look at my stuff... .whenever she wants... .that there is one "hook" that I will have my therapist... or other person there to monitor her looking and make sure she is "view only" (there is history here of her doing things... and not just looking)

My wife wants no part of accountability... .or perhaps another way of saying it... .she "doesn't want to look that bad"...

There is no getting around that the tactics we suggest are used by some for nefarious purposes.  If we just told them to suck it up... .I think it would promote the breakdown Skip suggests. 

Once it's obvious we are open (but with conditions)... .I think most disordered thinking would still "blame" us... .but deep down they understand the cost of looking is too high for them... .so the payoff isn't worth it.

Hope this helps... good question.

FF

prior to last week, I did allow BPDw to see my phone whenever she wanted.

I was still allowing this, even though she would use the opportunity to attack me over things I considered to be absurd.  examples... .
- texting my mom, aunt, brother, or dad, and not letting her know we talked
- not texting pictures of her to my mom, only our kids ( not intentional on my part)
- not texting "GOOD" pictures of her to my mom
- my mom not responding when I texted pictures of her

You can see how this went.  I'd comply with her demands, only for her to come up with new ones.  Much of this time, I was clueless of the nature of BPD, and was honestly trying to be a good husband and comply with her demands, hoping she'd start to trust me and calm down.

Needless to say, she would not be "making requests not criticisms" here, and any attempts to JADE would quickly lead to a heated conflict.

These incidents also arose randomly, at times everything seemed calm:
- on a family trip she needed to check a map, and had to borrow my phone b/c her phone's "battery was low"
- asked to borrow my phone to take pictures of our kids' easter egg hunt b/c she left her phone in the car
- while I was watching a basketball game, asked to see my phone b/c the cleaning lady needed to text her husband, and "there was a problem with her phone"

in all these cases, once she got on my phone she'd scroll through the message history and just go on the attack.  So at this point, she can't see my phone anymore.  period.  

If this makes me look like a cheater, so be it... .but she's used needing to see my phone as a flimsy pretext to attack me too many times.  

NOTE: In no case has she ever found any reason to suspect I'm unfaithful... .no emails, texts, calls, etc. There aren't any!  there aren't even any "suspicious" things on there.

I'm not engaging in triangulation here; you can all tell me I'm a horrible cheating ass for not letting my wife see my phone and I still won't do it.  I just wanted feedback on setting boundaries over the allegations of infidelity, esp. when made in front of my kids.

FF - requiring a third party be there is sort of a good idea, but I don't really know when we'd have the time to go get a third party to monitor her.  And if we did, she'd accuse me of deleting things by the time the 3rd party looked it over.  it's unworkable for us. 

That's the point... although I would want to change your words just a bit.

"The cost is too high for her... ."

Note... you are satisfied... .she is not.

You provide pathway to her satisfaction... .she gets to figure out if the "cost" is worth it.  This is problematic for her... .because it forces a more rational consideration of her concern.  Is seeing the email worth (fill in the blank)?  Especially if you leave the work up to her

And... .she can take the device to a computer expert to do a forensics on it... .again... let her decide the cost.

It's likely worth one clear explanation of your change in boundaries (which I think you have done)... .then you drop it.  She likely won't.

She will see this as you "pulling away", so if you can find other ways to reassure and "build bridges towards her"... that is likely wise.

FF

she agreed she won't look at my phone anymore, but made a big show of saying I can't see hers either.

okay, FINE!  (I've never gone through it and picked things to attack her over.) 

That's wonderful!  Remember... .watch your words when this comes up.  "respecting each others privacy" is a good phrase to remember.

My wife has passworded things... .taken them off... .usually makes a big show of it.  She will "forget" and leave things in the printer.

The key seems to be not to "bite".

FF

Stay cool, Peter. We're men. We're just exploring this matter beyond your current field of vision.

I want to share one comment that I encourage you to plant in your mind and over the next few weeks wrestle with it a bit... .

If I continue on the current path, I will come home one day and unexpectedly find myself locked out of family and my children's lives.

Clinical research says this. We have many member cases her that exemplify it (PM me and I'll give you links if you want). Many very messy, hardship cases.

Are you OK with this ticking time bomb?

If she is going to use my refusal to let her pry through my phone, and/or my refusal to engage with her when she gets hostile and yells at me for checking my work email (during the day... .when I'm still "on the clock" no less) to leave me and/or alienate me from my kids... .this was probably going to happen anyways right?

I'm not disengaging from the family or from her.  I'm not withdrawing, just making it clear that this lack of privacy & meddling in my communications with other family and friends has gone too far and affected my other relationships negatively.

And I am not being one-sided here; I never demand to see her phone, go through it and throw a fit over who she is or is not texting enough.  I'm not asking any courtesy I haven't also extended to her. 

Her behavior has been going on 6 years of this for me, and it's been close to 3 years since some people expressed to me the possibility of BPD.  I look back over notes to myself, past posts on the internet, 3 seperate MCs we've seen, and I know I made a good faith effort to meet her more than halfway on this.  It's come at a cost to my personal relationships with my own parents, who at times she's demanded I cut contact with.  it's also affected my career negatively, friendships, and my own health. 

So after all this, I am not really worried about the consequences of fighting for my own mental health and well being.  She'll be unhappy whether we stay together or not, and whether I give in to her demands or not. 

It is very likely to happen on the current trajectory and you both are contributing to it. In the end, it won't matter who is at fault.

what does "locked out of family" mean?  This is not helpful.

There are many different versions that have been reported here.

Recently a member came home after a business trip to find the family gone. Papers were served in the next few days. Communication was only available via lawyers. Another example includes a sheriff knocking in the door and serving an ex-parte´ order – removing the person from the home and making his return subject to a court order -  there is no due process in an ex parte´ order in most states – in your state an ex parte´order can last 20 days and your return to get your stuff can require supervision.

The "what" can vary, but the point is that when the relationship communication devolves to a low level, it is usually results in extremely high levels of resentment that hardens in time (6 years is a long time) followed by a "less than amicable" dismantling of the marriage. Parental alienation, as you mentioned above, is fairly common.

When conflict has been going on for a long time, we often normalize it in our mind and think it can continue as it has in the past. But the fact is that the conflict is slowly eroding the relationship and creating concrete barriers to its repair - with the wife and the kids.

There is a fundamental choice to be made here; "fight to win" or "seek to resolve."

There are hundreds of members who have faced the jealousy, the phone insecurity, the nail polish smell, the aunt nomenclature dispute, etc. Nothing is new or unusual here.

You are engaging in increasingly defensive behavior, seeking support on who is right and how to prevail.

Stage Three Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment. Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her. ~ John Gottman, Ph.D.[/i] https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

You can continue on the same path - that is your choice. I simply wanted to let you know, from 35,000 ft up and looking down, that you are in a much more significant event than a battle over a phone or nail polish.

Of course putting on nail polish at the kitchen table is inappropriate. You can stop there.

It's also resolvable. And yes, there will always be impulsive moments /extinction bursts that you will need to learn how surf over and not be engaged or triggered by.

Being in a "BPD relationship" takes great strength. More strength than your partner. More strength than men in other relationships. It's not an equal relationship by any means.

Pete,

Let me try to "reflect back" what Skip is asking you to see.  I may not have this right... .so... Skip... .nudge this as needed.

Perhaps let's start with "truths"... .or "axioms".

1.  The battleground is not the phone (that's a skirmish)... the battleground is her feelings.  What are you doing to care for her feelings?  What is she doing?  Perhaps most importantly, what are you doing to be supportive of her caring for her feelings?

2.  We (nons... the male nons especially) tend to be logical creatures.  We tend to let our "facts" influence our feelings and have a hard time wrapping our head around those that "do it backwards".  This tends to lead us to "invalidate" our partners, when we have no intention of doing so.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Wrapping our heads around the truth that I don't have a harem... and how that in any way can negatively effect my relationship with my wife is still hard, yet I accept it as true.  This "truth" has a big effect on how I communicate (or even more important how I DON'T communicate) with my wife.



Do you understand how she "feels" about the phone?  I'm not suggesting you need to agree.  I totally understand that YOU don't think you are withdrawing... .yet I wonder what it looks like from where she is.  (not suggesting you give her back unrestricted access).  

How does your view of "her view" of the phone thing affect the way you talk to her... your tone... body language... etc etc.  Remember... they pick up on tons of cues that we don't.

Last thought:  And perhaps what Skip is driving at.  There is a big difference in strategic and tactical.  You just did "tactics" about the phone (I assume you put a code on it).  There is a strategic thought behind this about your "openness" or "inviting in" your wife... .a connection or offer of connection if you will.

Is there a way you can protect your privacy more, yet gently lean in for more connection?

FF

I noticed this from Skip and thought I would pick up the ball and throw it back into play.


I did this.    Got used to the conflict.    Assumed it would go on the same way for ever.    Never really saw the slow drip drip drip of the conflict wearing away the bedrock.   Never really saw the slow drip drip wearing me away.

I got numb.    I thought 'oh it's going to be this way forever until something happens to change it.'     I was both right and wrong about that.   something finally did happen to change things,   all that bottled up resentment blew like a coca cola bottle that had been over shaken.

it could have gone done a lot easier and better, for everyone involved if I had been a little more proactive and less reactive.    

I know it's a great relief to come here and blow off steam.   how many people actually understand BPD and it's symptoms really?   what I learned is that blowing off steam can become a slippery slope.    my pwBPD did THIS.  and some one posts back;  Oh Yeah my pwBPD did THIS.   and before you know it's a down hill spiral into competitive war stories that deepen the resentment and entrenchment in conflict.    

nobody here is going to say it's not difficult to embrace the realities of BPD.   it is.   but like it says over to the right in step 4  |--->   it's vital to gain an unemotional understanding of what's going on in your relationship.

fight to win?   or seek to resolve?    Resolution can look very different for different people.  but in my book resolution means less conflict.

I haven't disengaged from my wife over this. 

We've been openly communicating and discussed each focusing on better communication, staying positive (ie avoiding negative comments) and having a better week this week.  so far so good.

I get that blowing off steam takes a conversation off the rails; my comment about my aunt's visit wasn't intended to do that.

I'm not "playing hard ball" with my wife over this stuff, and 7/10 times, when confronted with a negative attitude or response, I'm able to redirect her, address her emotional concerns, and move on.

I can only do so much though; I have a stressful job with long hours.  at times work pressure & marital pressure is too much to bear, and I can't do the empathy thing. 

If it ends, so be it!  I'll most likely end up with 40% custody, divide marital assets, pay child support for a while (no alimony in this state!), and find someone new - remembering the red flags I ignored when I got into this one. 

Not to be flippant... .but I can't be a caretaker for the rest of my life.  I didn't sign up for that.  The D word will affect my kids, sure, but so will seeing their parents fight all the time and be miserable.

OK. Fair. You see a high conflict divorce in the future as inevitable. "So be it!". Enough said.


(1) Can you point out where this was said or even implied? I ask this not to embarrass, but to possible show that if you are triggering on your friends in a support group setting, you might be triggering at home. By triggering I mean being hyper-defensive and reading into things (both meaning and intent) and the resurfacing the emotions from years of resentment - anger. This thread could have easily gone off the rails and into conflict if anyone participating with you wasn't completely centered. There were also a couple of place where you were pushing buttons.

Point: This is stage three stuff. It will become stage four if someone doesn't recognize that this is a cycle of conflict that is just waiting for triggers, a wrong look, to set it off. Disproportionate reactions beget more disproportionate reactions. This cycle can be broken.

(2) So the question is, how do stop your wife's inherent insecurity and "no filter" communication style. Most would suggest a broader, strategic approach (to use FormFlier' term) to the insecurity. Being belligerent, triggery, defensive, and/or issuing an ultimatum might drive the issue underground for the time being, but it will continue to resurface with more gusto every time it is "triggered". This two-way triggering thing drives a Hatfield and McCoy style of feuding, where the fight typically only ends in a draw and temporarily.

Values and boundaries could apply to a broader, strategic approach. It sounds like you are looking for more of an ultimatum enforced by threat (like anger) or non-cooperation (unilateral locking, blocking, hiding).

Point: Ultimatum's work with children, or in employer/employee relationships, coach/player relationships, but not so well in marriages or partnerships.

I foreone can attest 100% that ultimatums DO NOT WORK!  Not only do they not work but they usually amplify the problem to catastrophic levels .Ive done it and the word “backfire” isn’t a strong enough word to equate the outcome.

skip, I took this comment  of yours in post #19: "A lot of what we are suggesting here are the very tactics that men who are in affairs use."

... .to mean barring access to my phone is simply the wrong approach.  

I admit I've probably developed a sensitivity & too fatalistic approach toward the eventual outcome here, but I did take this to mean you would in theory concur with my wife's judgment that if I said she could no longer look at my phone (after DOZENS of fights, baseless accusations over the years), that it would be fair for her to be suspicious.

Where I am now is accepting the permanence of BPD; it's not going to get better.  and also understanding that the things I value and need more of -personal space, and personal relationships with friends (none female, for the record) and my own family members - are viewed as threats by my own spouse.

I can either try to preserve a modicum of personal space, or live under her foot, jump when she says so, and cut ties with friends & family she doesn't approve of.
BUT in either case, she'll still be unhappy with me, because in the former, she's not getting what she wanted, and in the latter it wasn't my idea to begin with.

If preserving a modicum of personal space leads to divorce, what kind of relationship is it?

OK. What I was trying to point out that if any women described that reaction (the totality of it), to a reputable confidant, they would say that it is suspicious. So if she tells the story to a therapist, a pastor, a relative, a guy in the office, people would say "well that doesn't sound good, it's not conclusive, I would watch carefully".

This is a reality that doesn't help matters. They will side with her.


Experts will tell you that a pwBPD does best with structure, a partner who unconditionally has their back, and a strong person who is not a doormat. This is doable in many (not all) relationships.

You have 6 years of fighting to recover and nothing will happen fast, but there are better choices than the either/or you have listed above.

People solve the insecurity / privacy dilemma.  You have to look at the bigger picture to do it, though.

Well, for the record, I'm not throwing in the towel.

and even when I look at my own behavior critically, for example "Am I being fair, or overly sensitive?" OR "Am I overreacting and maybe provoking some of this, subconsciously seeking a fight to end it all?"  I remember that after we make up, I am genuinely happy; I don't want a divorce; I don't want to throw away everything we have.  I want to plan for the future, and build on what we have now.  

But the randomness of it all, coming home happy, and leaving confused and angry, feeling ambushed, accused, berated, etc.  seeing her lash out at family members to sabotage their relationships with me, use our kids to get back at me or them (throwing away gifts, threatening to prevent contact, etc.)... .no
one should have to endure such treatment.  

I've gone from shock that she could make some of the allegations and attacks she's made, deep resentment over these things, to anger at myself for seeing the red flags and ignoring them, to fatalistic acceptance that eventually we'll get in a fight so bad that our marriage won't recover from it.  Maybe we can handle a couple more of them before we get to that part.  I don't know.  I also don't know what it will be like to retire and live with someone like this in old age... .constant demands on my time.  Jealousy over time spent with others.  etc. 

I know life is a constant struggle.  a BPD marriage takes that constant struggle to absurd heights... .yet I do still have some hope left that we'll be able to manage this better, and maybe the peaks and valleys will moderate somewhat.

I do envy those who post here and are out of it.  or who discovered this site or the nature of BPD before legally committing to someone and having kids with them.  I have Never seen anyone say "I really miss having to walk on eggshells all the time."

Hey Pete,

I have a different take on cell phone privacy, for what it's worth.

My BPDxW did her best to isolate me from family and friends.  Without their input, I was in danger of losing all perspective on reality, including the reality that I was a victim of spousal abuse.

My Ex tried to cut me off from those who cared about me, which is why, over her objections, I put a passcode on my cell phone.

My cell phone became my lifeline for help.  I determined that cell phone privacy was my boundary, because it enabled me to reach out for badly-needed assistance.

I favor guarding one's cell phone privacy, for that reason.  I shudder to think about what might have happened to me without it.

LuckyJim

Different from what, Jim? 

Boundaries are my #1 tool for stabilizing my relationship.  I've said that for a while now.

That being said, boundaries don't "connect" people and sometimes we end up "apart" because of a boundary/enforcement on my part.  There is a cost to boundaries and in my case it was worth it.

So... .Pete seems to be wrapping his head around boundaries AND taking action along those lines (for clarity... action that I agree with). 

In my opinion, that shows a lot of growth on Pete's part.  Knowledge... turned into action... .and held up under assault.  Solid work. 

So... .I think what we are challenging Pete on is not boundaries but what is the knowledge (perhaps plan is better word) he has to "connect" or "build" his relationship with his wife.

Once there is knowledge... .or if there is... .where is the action.  Will this action stand up under "sabotage" or "reactivity" from a pwBPD?

Skip... .is this a better summation of the question before us?

FF

Yeah, the attempts to isolate me from friends and family were the thing that convinced me I was dealing with something more than just run-of-the-mill marital problems.  And these attempts have been passive aggressive (eg making me sit through 20 questions if I say I'm going to a happy hour with colleagues) to overt (asking me to cut contact with my mom because she feels she doesn't like her).

I see now also that her willingness to relocate for my career a few years ago may have been done because it involved me leaving a city where I had long term connections and roots for one where I had none.

I've resisted these efforts to date; for a while she insisted that if I was going to call my mom, family and friends, I include her in the calls.  I complied, trying to take her requests in good faith, at face value... .but when I would comply, she'd still be unhappy, sitting there making snide comments or outright questioning why we had to call my mom, grandparents, etc. in the first place.

so I just call them at lunch, or when I'm away from home now.

on the other hand... .she would call her parents almost daily (my MIL lives with us now).

Double standards... .

but you're right... .it helps me preserve my sanity.

If you want to resolve the jealousy and insecurity (her) vs the independence and feelings of engulfment (you) issues, the battlefield is not the telephone or the credit card bill. Those are just transitional targets. And there is no right and wrong with them - I have close friends where husband and wife share an email address - extremely healthy and married 20+ years. In my current relationship, two very private people, we are slowly giving each other access to things - an unspoken earned access. We still have our privacy in certain areas. As LuckyJim points out, you need  to maintain your support group privacy, for example.

A. The first battlefield is heart. Consistently making her feel special and that no women holds a candle to her and that you would never abandon her will go along way. Remember, she over-expresses emotions and she is looking for the same thing from you.  Finding the right way to do this and be authentic will take a some trial and error. You need to phase this in over time - don't flip a dramatic switch. This won't fix everything, don't expect it to, but it will fix a lot and it compromises you "zero" - you give up nothing for this. B. The second battle field is weathering impulsive passing emotions. She is a pwBPD and she will always have off the wall passing emotional reactions that she over-emotes. The most important thing to understand her is that they are passing and you don't want to grab on make them into a ongoing drama (you are doing this, now). You will be amazed how often the blow out as fast as they come in. Some times a little appropriate validation, or a hug, or, I understand, lets work on that, helps. If she is "in drive", the best thing to do is buy time. Wow, you are really upset, explain that to me, ok that's important, let me think about that for a few hours and lets talk. A few hours later, when thing are cool you can validate her heart, show your loyalty (offer a date night or something).

No magic here. If you adopt this philosophy it may take a year to master. But it will start working at some level immediately. You will get called out when if its not authentic (and that is a cue to make adjustments). This will serve your relationship, and any future relationship. These are tools of emotional maturity.

Make sense?

So going back to that transitional target, your phone. The more you pull it away, the more she will want in. This is basic human nature.  Next time you have a phone showdown and you can't resolve it by weathering the storm, make a date you go through the phone... .like the next morning before work... .and go through it together and make it fun (you show your email list, she shows hers, she picks a random email to read, you pick a random email to read) and then "oops, out of time, got to go to work".

Get the idea. You don't give up anything with this.

OK, kickers... .comments?  

Are these healthy values/boundaries?
Value: "Intimacy and transparency", and "interdependence and independence" in my marriage are vitally important. It's important that my wife feel secure and "no secrets" in my marriage and its important that I am fully responsible for and maintain a healthy level of autonomy.
Boundary 102: (as it relates to phone, only) My phone is password protected for practical reasons (no one messes up my organization, accidentally erases files, has access to passwords, etc.) but I am open to share its contents, respectfully, on occasion for transparency reasons. This is an exercise that must be loving and comfortable for everyone.

(https://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j360/cmsgoboston41/chucknorristrans_zpskr8edkcp.gif)
Chuck Norris is still alive and kicking

I like the "fire analogy".  A fire must have fuel to keep burning.  You are not responsible if she is the one adding fuel to the fire... .you are only responsible for what you add.  Heaven forbid... don't toss gasoline on there (I don't think you did in this instance).  Sometimes you feel as though you have to do something that adds fuel, what we teach here at bpdfamily is to try and be wise and add fuel that is "relatively safe" (basically good boundary enforcement)


Let's continue the fire analogy for Skip's other point.  Making her feel special.  Imagine her feelings as a small fire... .you want to gently tend it... some keep a nice comfortable "warmth" coming off it.  Practically speaking it may be a light touch... .leaning a little closer... .a gentle rub on the shoulder.  consistency here is critical.

FF

Well, I tried the "let it blow over technique" yesterday, and it seemed to have worked.

She had a short 1-day business trip for work.  when she's had these in the past, I've noticed she comes back with an incredibly short fuse, and we get into a huge fight over some ridiculous issue.  (but more about that below.)

In the present case, she was on her way back, and called me to talk as both of us were on our way home from work.  in my case, I was walking out of the building, when I said "hold on a sec" as I got into the elevator.  Immediately I get grilled "hold on a sec?  WHAT?  WHY?  Are you afraid to talk to your wife in public?"

WHOA! Here we go... .

I stayed calm though, and rode out some similar waves of hostility related to whether or not I was interested in hearing about her trip, and why I was not saying much.

When I got home, she was happy... .So there.

open questions about her behavior though:
1) this isn't the first time she's gone somewhere for work for a couple days and came back looking for a fight.  Is it separation anxiety?  I don't recall her getting similarly belligerent when she's gone for weekends to visit her friend for a baby shower or something like that.

2) on occasion, if we're out in public and a woman talks to me in a friendly manner (even if it's a waitress taking my order) my wife will get sullen and accuse me of something strange, like yelling at her "because I feel arrogant now that another woman talked to me"... .(and I was definitely not yelling at the time).

her boss is a bit of a dodgy character IMO.  I don't think he's a malicious person, but definitely not very honest or up-front with people, and a bit of a glad-hander.  

she tells me how much he praises her abilities, introduces her to senior people at her job, etc. on these trips.  (FWIW -I don't suspect anything untoward, as his wife has often gone with them and they are not alone together) is she projecting a bit here?  is she doing what she accuses me of doing?  getting a big head from outside attention and taking it out on those around her?

Is she coming back expecting to hear about how great she is, and upon not getting that (usually because I'm tired from having shouldered sole burden of work + childcare for the time she's away), reacts with such hostility?  

it goes without saying maybe, but of course, she's never offered any sort of appreciation for doing this without complaining.  she almost seems to resent me even trying to tell her about anything the boys and I did while she is away.

I was able to weather the storm, FWIW, because I was in a good mood, and not under stress at work at the moment.

NOT always possible!