BPDFamily.com

So... I had figured that the end of the school year would bring some interesting changes.

My wife claims that my 15 year old is greatly upset by the obvious conflict between how science view the age of the earth... .and how the Bible portrays that.  That this is somehow greatly disturbing him.

And... the only solution possible is to immediately get in "Biblical Counseling" for intensive training of our son.

So... I let her know I'll give it some thought and talk with our son.

We have a couple chats... including a long... couple hour chat at Chick Fil A.  Our son will likely end up in a STEM field of some sort... .he's a really smart guy.

Well... he sees the obvious conflict and is trying to sort it out.  Teenagers have lots of things to sort out.

Well... .I asked him several different ways how much thought he has given this... .and/or how much this difference concerns him and on a 1 to 10 scale... .1 being no concern... 10 is end of the world... .he gives it a "4 or 5"

So... .we chatted about the way forward and future discussions... etc etc and he seemed good with occasional chats.

I wanted to give him every opportunity to ask to go to BC... without directly asking him.  I suspect his Mom pushed him or is pushing him to that... .vice it being his idea.

So... .fast forward to my wife and I discussing this... .and I related some of my conversation and clarified my wife's concerns. 

My wife said that if he believes wrongly... .that if he dies he will go to hell.

Later when I tried to reflect back what she said... she claimed I was twisting her words and she declined to clarify her remarks.

Well... .she then shifted her story and claimed that he wants to go and he brought it up... .and she was merely communicating that to me.

Sigh...

Then she presses me for an answer... yes or no... .no more thinking (which I declined to do as I was still getting information).  I asked her if there was a crises... and she said no.  I asked to understand the urgency and she said it was sad and she was disappointe I was so scared of this.

She mildly dysregulated and stormed out. 

Bunch of texts demanded I set a date where I would decide... it's been too long... etc etc (couple weeks since the idea was casually raised)

Anyway... .I'll be able to talk to my son on late Sunday or perhaps Monday... .I'll have to carefully figure out whose idea this is... and what he is interested in... .vice my wife.

My opinion is that my wife has a very narrow view of what is "acceptable Bible belief" and is trying to shoe horn the world into those beliefs. 

This seems like completely normal questioning that our other kids have been through... .and we appear to have handled it... .

Sigh... this stuff is tiresome...

FF

I’m not sure I am going to answer your BPD frustration but I do think that the question in hand needs to be changed. I.e. science vs Christianity. I have had said battle raging for several years now. I think it is foolish to discount human discoveries using the process of science yet my religious beliefs would lead me to believe the bible. This seminar helped me greatly in cogetating why there needs not be a rejection of one or the other, however seeing each for what it is.

https://youtu.be/4D4RCdLnvko

Christian teaching including Christian counsellors have proved falable time and time again. What does it say about you as a parent if you hand your inteligent son over to a Christian counsellor who tells him the earth is flat only for him to be able to prove it is not with science. My parents KNEW because they had been told by a wise Christian that carbon dating was nonsense, they imparted this wisdom on me with a religious seal of approval. It has since been be proven to be very accurate and very few scientifically knowledgable Christians would deny its credibility. Every little realisation that my parents, and the Christian aeal of approval were wrong was another step towards me questioning their judgement and the churches credibility.

As you can see, FF, this push from your wife has the potential to backfire big time.

I was a smart kid and when I heard simplistic dogma from my Sunday School teacher that shut down my intellectual inquiry, that was the end of my relationship with Christianity.

I still thought Jesus was awesome, but I felt that the humans who had interpreted his words were off base and had manipulated his teachings as a way to control people for their own ends.

I still believe this. So many so-called Christian preachers scam their followers and live a luxury filled life, while those who generously donate to their ministries have to decide whether to spend their remaining dollars on either food or medicine.

And 15 is a great age for rebellion. I was much younger when I noticed “the man behind the curtain” but my parents weren’t as practicing as your family.

I think you have already seen the effectiveness of the Biblical counselor with your marriage.

There could be a few reasons for your wife's distress. PD parents see their children as extensions of themselves and have weak boundaries between themselves and the child. Adolescence is a time for questioning and asserting autonomy. This can cause distress for the PD parent.

Your son is questioning. This is normal. You have given him your religious perspective, but sooner or later, he is going to form his own. While you wish for him to maintain yours- eventually, he has to find his own reasons for adhering to his religious beliefs. He won't just do it because you tell him to.

IMHO, I don't think instilling in him the fear that if he questions, he is going to go to Hell is a good way to approach religion with him. I don't mean to go against your own religious beliefs but I would hope that the foundation of his religion is strong enough to withstand questioning and that a loving and forgiving God would allow a child to go through the process of growing from a child's version of God to an adult's version.

If your child is going to advance to the sciences, he is going to encounter discrepancies and also have colleagues who do not agree with the Biblical view of the creation of the world. He is going to have to work this out for himself- and while he can attain guidance from you and other people, this intellectual struggle is his.

For me, if I am looking for a role model- I choose someone who has gone through a similar experience. I know a couple of science teachers who are devout Christians and are also well educated in the sciences. Surely they must have grappled with this themselves and come to some form of resolution. A Biblical counselor does not have a degree in science. Personally, I would choose someone like these teachers if your son wants to talk to someone- someone who is doing what he may want to do someday and who has held on to his/her religion. Perhaps you know someone in your community who can fit this role.

Yeah... I've seen the effectiveness... .

So... when I explained my view to my son, I told him that I wanted him to be able to understand and explain to others... and himself... .my view... how I worked it out, yet he was free to work it out for himself... .and he could be sure our relationship was good.

Personally... .I think that when science is "complete" and/or perhaps when i pass away (there is an assumption by me and many that "questions will get answered" then) that it will "all make sense" and that "both will be true".

Here is the thing... the Bible is not a science book.  While I certainly support a "plain reading" of the Bible I also have to acknowledge that there is not a list of definitions... or at least precise definitions on what all terms mean... .so they can be replicated in a future experiment.

And... science books are not helpful when they start teaching "belief" as science... .or "law".

So... I encourage science and think the more we know... the better and that someday, with the right point of view... .it will all "make sense".

Anyway... .good point about modeling that this is normal stuff to be worked out... don't be anxious.

FF

Some of this is the times we live in- where people tend to be polarized. The science vs religion debate seems to be more prevalent than it used to be. We've polarized a lot of things- people think they need to be on one side or the other, but it isn't necessarily true that one has to pick a side.

Religion and science are two separate disciplines. We don't make people choose between philosophy and science, or art and science, but for some reason, young people are faced with an either/or decision when it comes to religion and science.

First, you don't "believe" in science. It isn't a religious belief. It's a discipline that studies and explains our natural (physical) world. Religion concerns itself with both the physical world and the abstract concepts of what we can not see, or prove scientifically. It involves faith, and science does not.

There are discrepancies between the Bible and the scientific explanations of how the world came to be but those areas are not the only points of the Bible. The science vs religion debate takes those aspects of the Bible and proposes the whole thing must be false if those points are not in conjunction with scientific theory and facts. But science doesn't concern itself with the spiritual aspect of humans.

My own take on the differences is that we don't really know how long a year, or a day, or a week was compared to modern clocks and calendars. Modern clocks and calendars are time in human construct but who knows what the time in the Universe is counted by? That would require not interpreting the timing in the Bible literally. Others may differ in that aspect.

Religion maintains that we don't know everything there is to know. Science has proven this as well- with new discoveries there is an infinite amount of knowledge yet to discover. The idea of either or suggests knowing absolutely that one is true and one isn't, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. Both are valuable, both can be true in different ways.

Your son is grappling with difficult concepts- it may help to let him know he doesn't have to choose one or the other.

Here’s my beef with orthodoxy and then I’ll shut up:

If you compare translations of The Dead Sea Scrolls with some current Biblical teachings, there are significant differences. Hence, the Bible has gone through the hands of many editors over the years—all humans with different ideas of what is important.

Long ago, there was the Council of Nicaea, organized by Constantine, which decided which books were Scripture and which were to be burned. Again, decisions made by humans with differing opinions.

Then there are different versions of the Bible, with emphasis on varying aspects of the teachings.

When I was a child, there was no overt conflict between science and religion, but now that’s a battleground in some areas. Again, human intervention.

I appreciate the divine teachings in the Bible. I don’t appreciate how people try and use this holy book to justify their own prejudices, fears, limitations, ignorance and hatred of others unlike them.

Rant over.

Solid rant!

The control of others part is huge, especially for those with PDs (IMO).

A while back my wife was accusing me of trying to control her... or needing to... I forget the specifics... .I assured her that I had no interest in controlling her... .as demonstrated my my control of the location of my ears... .and the rest of my body.  And since God want's us to "protect our heart" and be good stewards of our bodies... .was I not carrying out God's will?

There was some sputtering... .and recalculating... and then I demonstrated my control as I went and did other things. 

I would really like to know how she connected those dots...

FF

I attend an ACA group but the dynamics are not limited to alcohol abuse. They are similar to the dynamics of a family with a BPD member.

This is from the literature:

The following questions will help you decide if alcoholism or other family dysfunction existed in your family. If your parents did not drink, your grandparents may have drank and passed on the disease of family dysfunction to your parents. If alcohol or drugs were not a problem, your home may have been chaotic, unsafe, and lacking nurture like many alcoholic homes.

The following questions offer an insight into some ways children are affected by growing up with a problem drinker even years after leaving the home. The questions also apply to adults growing up in homes where food, sex, workaholism, or ultra-religious abuse occurred. Foster children, now adults, relate to many of these questions.


Religion is discussed in the group I attend. We don't consider "religious abuse " to be something like being made to go to church growing up. It's consider abuse when it is used to control a child, through fear, or be overly critical. Children form their God concepts on their parents as role models and many members come with an exaggerated fear of God, fear of making a mistake, a feeling like they are not good enough.

ACA groups don't embrace a specific religion but the topic is brought up in the sense of "re-parenting" and finding peace with the belief system of the person's choice.

The result has gone in different ways. People have examined the religious beliefs they grew up with and made the adjustment to what is more accurate for them. Some members grew up Christian and remain devout Christians . Some have become atheists. Some have left their family religion and adopt another one. Some are still searching.

I think you have given your son the basis of your religion. If your wife is using religion to control others, this is a misuse of it. I also agree with Cat that using the Bible to instill exaggerated fear, control or to justify mistreating others/discrimination is a misuse of it.

Dear @Ff, I’m sorry to hear that your wife is somewhat dysregulated, and you have more then one issue on your plate. From very limited info I have on BPD, it seems that the urgency and cranking the heat up comes from inability to tolerate the distress. Evidently, you wife’s relationships with the Allmighty is front and center if her core identity. By having to question and naturally inquisitive mind, your son’s triggered some level of distress, that she isn’t able to tolerate. It comes as controlling behaviour, which is her desire to put him in bible camp, in order to deal with uncomfortable feelings of existence and other religion related issues. Now, you being the ninja of BPD, I can tell that your are already delaying and prolonging the decision, which is the smart move, practical. The more time you spend delaying, the more chances of her running out of fumes for her emotional reaction. I want to throw something, approximation. How does she deal with it? What is you order books on Amazon dealing with this specific subject and once they arrive, you present it to your wife? If you tell her that you think it’s best, that you deliver the same information to him, since you are his dad and know him the best? Would it ease her distress and provide similar soothing effect she is going after? It’s unfortunate when the children become mixed into the power struggle that inevitably comes with pwBPD. I wholeheartedly know that you have a way of dealing with this complicated situation without making it worse. 

This is a topic I have personally explored a great deal.  For me personally, I have no problem believing that Adam and Eve lived about 6 thousand years ago and "science" doesn't know what it is talking about.  Anyway, the short answer, is if he is concerned about this (I am glad that he is), then I recommend that he walk into a Christian book store and look for some books on the topic.  There are plenty.

While not the purpose of this forum, here are some ways that Christians have addressed the issue:

• Bible is right, Science is wrong.
• The 6 days of creation are not literal days, but span billions of years
• Adam and Eve existed 6000 years ago, but before the 6 days of creation, the earth existed billions of years, and during those billions of years, the current fossil record was created

Here is a website for Creationism that I used to follow:
https://store.icr.org/

Maybe it would help to clarify what your wife believes and what she is afraid of.

She has already stated that she is afraid your son will go to Hell. But what is her premise for believing that? It might help to clarify this theologically. She may be having black and white thinking - if he considers scientific thinking --- then he will drop his religion---- then he will go to Hell, but that may not be true.

This may be more her problem than your son's. At 15, he is developing his higher abstract thinking. It is normal for him to be looking at conflicting ideas and figuring things out. He's trying to decide who he is as an individual.

Hi Formflier,

This thread is interesting to me because I grew up in a super conservative religious background and now my son is an Earth and Environmental Science grad student in college. We've had to deal with the same thing, the debate between religion and science. Many good thoughts shared here. My mom was uBPD, and for her, any challenge to her faith (aka science and the age of the earth, etc.) would throw her into the same type of thinking as you've mentioned coming from your W.

I think that anytime we encounter something that is a seeming 'threat' to what we believe, we can go all haywire to try and make sure others conform to what we feel and believe is right. It isn't just about science and religion but extends much further. In this situation however, you are in a place of having to answer her question. If you go one way, it's a landmine for you; if you go the other, it may be a landmine for your son.

I appreciated Notwendy's comments about them each standing on their own, without having to mix them. My son is a Christian and he has had to come to a place of sorting this out for himself. There's a lot of science that shows Intelligent Design. I think there's a lot of value in trying to find a science teacher/mentor who is a Christian and maybe that can be a compromise.

Wools

I've had the occasion today to talk with one of my buddies at church (from a men's small group that I attend) who also happens to be a biologist (makes new kinds of corn and soybean seed).

Anyway... .he stressed that you have to separate "belief" from "science".

He also stressed that science "explains the natural world" and that much of the Bible falls into the "supernatural" world, so it should be no shock that one can't "disprove" the other or "prove" the other.

From his talk I have many more ideas about how to hopefully coach and guide my son, as he works out his beliefs.

FF

Both Science and Religion are methods of truth seeking.

Science is a method by which evidence is collated, tested vs a null hypothesis and conclusions derived based on whether or not the test can statistically disprove the null hypothesis.

Christianity or religion does not require evidence testing as it lives withing the gaps or outside what is and isn't provable by evidence. It requires faith, and faith by it's very nature is not easily rationalised.

The 2 can co-exist as discovery as defined by our findings using scientific testing has left a lot of gaps and areas where our understanding has yet to be defined, OR more importantly where disproving the null hypothesis requires assumptions (assumptions requiring faith, which are not utterly scientific). Even Stephen Hawkins could not prove anything past the start of the observable light cone created by the big bang... .did God reside there?

Unfortunately/fortunately for your son, what he observes is that the areas where religion and faith historically resided because of our ability to apply scientific testing, are gradually being squeezed. We all have to reaffirm the boundaries between scientifically proven understanding and faith, faith being where God resides and where God control/influences stuff. Unfortunately this boundary was never placed in the right place hence it has been continually moved since the dawn of time, reducing "Gods" credibility, and feeding atheists argument. 

And... .we have to "be honest" about when scientists are using the scientific method and proving things, such as my biologist friend that can prove... repeatedly... .the effect of genetic mutations in corn and soybeans versus what scientists "believe" or "have faith in" regarding origins of the universe, origins of human life... .etc etc.

From the scientific "point of view" their scientific beliefs are certainly reasonable, but they are not "provable" in the scientific , but they are reasonable scientific theories.


Anyway, switching gears... .it would seem that there will be more definition of boundaries regarding my family and the church over the summer. 

My wife is in a bit of a conundrum.  Her religious belief says that I am head of household and have the "final say" in religious matters.  So... .she would need my "blessing" to join the church and "place herself under the authority" of the pastor and deacons there.  Right now we "attend" but we are not members. 

Many have asked why I don't just go to another church and my answer is that I have a number of important relationships at the church, some at mid-level leadership and some lay people which I enjoy, keep me grounded and do quite well for my "christian life".

As a matter of personal belief, I don't believe that I have to be a member of a church that practices church discipline.  I do keep in regular contact with my pastor and others at the church at which my family is a member. 

Anyway... many of you know my history with biblical counseling.  I'm not sure how open I've been here that as a result I filed an ethical complaint against my counselor with his "governing body" and the complaint was fully substantiated... .  I actually had a meeting with higher up officials to ask if they perhaps would once again play a role in stabilizing our marriage and in one meeting my wife was involved.

Anyway... .a board member of this national accrediting agency informed me that if I ever spoke of my ethical complaint again, I would be "sinning" and would be "kicked out". 

In other words, I brought a complaint to leadership, leadership substantiated (agreed with) my claim and then threatened me with consequences should I ever speak of it again.

So... .while I'm interested in maintaining connections that are important to me, unless the leadership issue is addressed there is zero chance I would ever give my blessing to anyone in my family "placing themselves under the authority".  Even if the leadership issue was addressed... .frankly I can't imagine it ever being addressed in a way that would lead me to give my blessing to this.

So... .you can see the conundrum she is in.  She needs my blessing to join, wants to join, yet doesn't want any of the stuff that happened in BC to ever come up again.  She believes that I "manipulated" church leadership into substantiating the ethical claims I made (her paranoia kicked in)

Anyway... .just me reading tea leaves and knowing momentum goes on these things... .

I further need to be wise about what is senseless and needless drama that I don't want to be involved in and what are "real principled issues" that I should take a stand on.

For now I have time to think this through... .I'd appreciate all of your help on this.

FF

Note:  I have visited and research numerous other churches in the area and while there are other places that "will do", there is nothing out there that gets me interested in moving where I worship.

To me... ."worshiping" is what I'm looking for... .especially worshiping with people I have long standing relationships with.

The church is pretty big and is organized... .literally... .into different corporations, of which the counseling ministry is separate from the "regular" Sunday morning ministry, even though some of the people involved are the same.  That's really hard to explain.

I kid you not... .the children's ministry here is one of, if not the best, that I've ever had my children involved with.  So, if I stay away from "counseling" I have this view that our involvement with this church is a "net positive", even with the complications.

FF

This is a great thread!

My most aged, and wise Grandmother, whom was a devoted follower of Jesus Christ and lived to age ninety-one; she used to tell me when she was living here on the earth... ."you know ___"(Red5's real name )... .she would say, "you know that the stars go on forever, that's the way the Good Lord created the heavens... .and he also has a great big watch, as a few minutes in Heaven are actually more like a few thousand years, maybe even more by and by"... .

I remember when I was fifteen, which is a very "formable age" to say the least... .being raised by my Grandparents (long story), whom survived the great depression, and raised eight children of their own... .so full of wisdom, even though they were dirt poor, and struggled to get by... .they seem so much more intelligent now even though they have both returned to star dust, from which the Creator made them; than even the folks who live in this modern day of technological wonders.

At age fifty-two, I have so many things still to talk to them about... .but all I have is their memory, not a day goes by that I do not think of them, thank God for them, they taught me so much... .Grampa used to refer to this as "gumption", which was most likely his term for common sense knowledge.

Formflier, sounds like you have an awesome Son, there is no doubt in my mind that you have raised him to be a "thinking man"... .and I am sure that he will do what he feels that he needs to do to ensure that both yourself, and a well his Mothers wishes are honored... .but like several have said here, in the end; he will make up his own mind about the vast, endless, and infinite expanses of the universe.

Keep doing what your doing, sounds like you are on the right track, even as you have your hands full as far as I can tell !

Red5

Yep... .I kinda like S15 too... .we had a great breakfast together today and talked further about this subject for over an hour.

My really only new information was a caution to him to not try to use science to "explain" the supernatural and vice versa.

Also tried to assure him while this might be "troubling" to him that is is a debate that all of humanity has had since the beginning of time and likely will still be having thousands of years from now, yet the debate is personal to him... .and his troubled feelings are real.

Anyway... .I like this thread too... keep it up.

FF

FF- what do you think about having your son meet with your biologist friend?

He's at the age where students begin exploring their future career possibilities- not yet ready to choose for certain, but exploring. He might enjoy meeting people in the science field- and also learning how they reconciled both religion and science.

Your wife has had this conflict for a while- what her religion states, and what she does. Honestly, don't we all do that to some extent? Fall short of our ideals at times- but perhaps the impulsiveness of BPD makes it even more of a challenge. I think the discrepancy between ideal self and real self with BPD is more subjected to black and white thinking.  Ideal (image) self is perfect, and failing to meet that image results into self loathing. The Jeckyll/Hyde personality switches along with the idealization of others/paining them black when they don't reflect that perfection too.

They say parents with BPD see their children as extensions of themselves. So, perhaps the feeling is- if S15 questions his faith, even for a moment---this reflects something negative about her as a mother. Or she realizes he is having different thoughts than she is about religion.

Teen years can be a challenge even for non-BPD parents- kids are becoming their own person. Parents are realizing that while they still have some control- the children are developing minds of their own. Maybe it is this aspect that is upsetting your wife. These "issues" sometimes are not the issue- but the feelings behind the issue.

FF,

Do you think that your W uses Christianity as a bit of a smoke screen? I see this dynamic at home a lot, bare with me whilst I explain... .

W thinks something and she kinda knows that it might be a bit whacky, but she can't help but think it anyway... .or she wants to discipline the kids because she doesn't like a behaviour but doesn't want to own the discipline as that brings on guilt and shame feelings. So, she will nominate someone else, me... .God to have made this decision for her. Karpman triangletastic... .if the perpetrator isn't actually there in person or physically, you just invent one. Kinda like a Punch and Judy show where the puppeteer plays both characters using different voices 

Your W (Rescuer) see's herself as rescuing your son from the eternal damnation by God (Perpetrator) from him not believing in the sanctity and literal word of God. When in actual fact, your W is the one whom has put rigid rules (pwBPD love rules defining what is right and wrong for other people) around her beliefs about scripture interpretation. She cannot cognitise the interplay and 'Grey' between knowledge & understanding, and faith and spirituality. As Notwendy mentions, her perfect self is questioned by your sons confrontation with her perfect 'white' understanding of creation. Therefore it is not that your son disagrees with the word of the lord and faces eternal damnation that you W is concerned about (smoke screen), it's that he disagrees with her 'White' view on creation. Both he 'black' and her 'white' cannot both be right  at the same time. If he is right then she must be wrong and she must be a wrong person in entirety. So weirdly, she might be rescuing herself, playing all three characters.

It's the failing of people's need to place and personify God that leads to the requirement to have a 'white' view of creation and deal with the constant disappointment as those places and people are eroded by human discovery.

That was part of my thought by meeting with him. 

So... .as opposed to some in church leadership...   ... .I trust this guy, have a personal relationship with him, pray with him at our weekly mens group.

In other words... I think I know his heart and would be good influence on my son.

I certainly wanted to chat with him about this specifically first, but my guess is within the next few weeks... we'll set something up.

They have other things in common as well... .my friend is an "avid hunter" (gun and bow) and S15 is my one hunter in the family.

The rest of us are lazy hunters (including me).  When we lived on a farm and could walk out front door to go hunt... .I would go.  To take off an entire day and drive somewhere... .just not for me and don't have time.

More later

FF

Bible vs. Science is a subject close to my heart.  I won't get into it in this thread though, except to recommend that any Christian Believer that is wondering about what seem like "conflicts" between the beliefs and what they are taught by science today... .go watch Del Tackett's "The Truth Project".  It can be ordered on Amazon, it's 8 different DVDs, and it's the best I've seen on the subject.  It might be a good program for your son, FF.  It might even be good for you and your wife, as well.

Be prepared, though, it's very in depth and very detailed.  If you are in anything close to an ADHD mood, distracted, etc., it's gonna be hard to keep up.  You gotta be able to pay close attention to the whole thing.

Thanks for the tip

It's hard to be the 'less fundamentalist' parent and balance love and truth.

My d14 gets flack from her grandparent (dad's mom) about her views that really bother the fundamentalist grandparents. She basically told gma that there are differing views in our family on one of the hot button topics. At the same time, it was a difficult interaction for d14 because she wants to show love to others and because she now thinks that her dad hasn't told his mom something that d14 knows.

One of the things that I very much value is the idea of diversity of Christian thought about issues that are non-essential to the faith. I know that some groups tend to be monolithic in their beliefs. One of the things that has been helpful for my d14 is knowing that there are different views among Christians; we have friends who are more on the 'progressive' side.

Of course, none of this is really going to be okey dokey with FFW; it's all tied up with salvation. My h wasn't okay with d14's thoughts and actions... .  until he painted the church black... . 

Given your experience in BC, it doesn't seem like something that would be helpful in developing your son's faith, and it could cause a lot of harm.

I certainly will "expose" him to lots of different ideas, but there is zero chance... .ZERO... .that I will allow him "to be put under someone's authority"... .which is part of the BC thing.

Let's just say they are not much on "agree to disagree" on stuff... which didn't suit me too well...

FF

I previously said that I'd shut up after my rant, but, I guess speaking my mind has always been a big part of who I am, for better or worse.

The discussion in Sunday School that effectively ended my relationship with Christianity at age 9 or 10 was this:
I hadn't been baptized in the church that my parents and I had been recently attending. When questioned by my Sunday School teacher, I admitted as much. She then told me that I was going to Hell. I asked her about children in parts of the world who had never heard about Jesus. She said that they too were going to Hell. This so conflicted with my feelings about Jesus being a loving and compassionate presence that I decided I was done with this religion and that any beliefs I had were to be mine alone and inviolate from the influence of such hateful people.

In subsequent years, I was "threatened" by various people telling me that if I didn't embrace their particular brand of religion that I was "going to Hell". I laughed to myself and thought that I certainly wouldn't want to go to their Heaven if it were inhabited by people like them.

Fortunately this Hell threat has never wielded power over me, but I can imagine that for some people it would be a really scary thought. Even so, just the saying of it has felt very abusive and divisive. I think that it's an absolutely horrible thing to say to a believer and for me, it basically ended my relationship with the church. I forged my own path with my own beliefs, but for others, it might lead them into abandoning all the good that religion can teach.

Just saying... .

I'm with Cat on the idea that a loving God would not cruelly send people to Hell but I understand not everyone agrees with that.

This thread reminded me that my BPD mother felt that some aspects of normal teen growth and development was a "problem" and she enlisted my father to join her to solving that "problem". When I had a growth spurt, she decided I was overweight and got my father to join her in coercing me to lose weight- extra weight that didn't exist as I was a normally growing teen. She told me I was going to be huge one day. I am not big and never was.  She got on a shy sibling's case ( and also enlisted my father)  for not dating. He dated in his own time.

Your son may not have a problem at all. She has a problem with his growing, developing intellect- and she's enlisted you to help "solve" it.

Religion is your soft spot because it does mean so much to you. Do you think it reinforces her when you do react- because it is so important to you? But her fears could be irrational about religion too.

Right now... .my thought is this is completely within the realm of "normal".  Twice now after long talks I've asked him how he feels about talks... and he is ok

I've asked him twice if there is anything specific he wants to do in order to sort this out... .keep talking is his answer.

I've asked him twice specifically if there are things he doesn't want to do... ."not really"...

So... I haven't directly asked him yet if he asked to go to BC... .perhaps sometime I will... .I like to stay open and let him guide.

It rings more true to me that she would have "nudged" him... "don't you think this is a good idea"... .or perhaps he said it to make her feel better... who knows.

This is a kid that will sit down and explain how warp drive is theoretically possible... .and... we'll talk for a long time about that.  So... .no shock that we talk in depth about all kinds of stuff.

Anyway... .love the thread... keep it up.

FF

I got a private message from a member and I thought I'd post my reply here as it relates to discussion of religion.

I would agree with you, that it's best not to have theological discussions on the forums. I wasn't attempting to advance a particular religious viewpoint, but rather, warn how damaging black and white thinking applied to religion could be.

What I experienced as a young child, I would wish on no one. Not only did my Sunday School teacher tell me I was Hell-bound, the entire Sunday School class pointed fingers at me and chanted that. I certainly can't see how that "warning" could help a child in any way. And after that, I had no interest in returning to that Sunday School class.

At my previous church, before we moved when I was 7, the elderly minister retired and we had a new young guy take his place. I still remember a sermon he preached where he talked about going to a variety of places of worship: temples, mosques, etc. And his takeaway was that we were all honoring God.

Needless to say, he didn't last long in the rather conservative culture of that particular church. But his conclusions have stuck with me for a lifetime and I'm incredibly grateful that I heard his sermon.