BPDFamily.com

I’m posting on this board since think this thread will lean more towards advice in how to proceed with the actual separation details, etc.  But a lot of this is me just needing to get this all out, too... .

I told my uBPDstbxw on Friday that I need to separate.  Given her emotional volatility, I told her during our session with the MC.  She was of course upset, and I had made arrangements for me and then kids to stay elsewhere that night.  Our S5’s graduation from daycare was on Saturday, and things actually went ok with that.  She ended up inviting her parents at the last minute because she felt she needed the support, and I was fine with that.  They even hugged me hello and goodbye.  Then later that afternoon we had received an invitation to have an early dinner at her brother’s house, and I agreed to go to that (she said it was ok with them and that she really wasn’t up for an abrupt change where I didn’t go to something like that). My brother-in-law and his wife both hugged me hello—she even held on a little longer and whispered that she loves me—and they hugged me goodbye.

So then comes today (Sunday).  We arranged for S5 and D9 to be out of the house for a couple hours so that we could start talking about arrangements and a plan for telling them.  She started out by laying out a timeline in May of when we talked to our MC on the 4th and how afterward she said that she felt that we'd turned a corner in our relationship and were making real progress.  She acknowledged that she had a blow-up the week of her birthday mid-month, but said that otherwise things felt like they were going OK... .then she started pressing me to understand when during all of that did I decide to end it.  She pulled out a picture of the two of us that she tossed in front of me, and started to talk about our vows... .and I turned the picture over and tossed it back in front of her, telling her I would not participate in that kind of manipulation.

It took multiple attempts but I kept turning the conversation away from the emotional processing--not what I was there for--and tried to keep us focused on what our plan is for telling the kids.  I tried to stress (based on discussion when my therapist) that we really shouldn’t tell them until we're ready to tell them together.  That we shouldn't tell them anything until we have agreed on more of a plan for the short-term and possibly some high-level details for the long-term.

She stressed that she cannot compartmentalize the way I can and therefore can't stay under the same roof with me and keep it together in front of the kids.  She told me I needed to move out.  By now, there was frequent yelling from her, mostly about how I chose to leave the marriage, that I disregarded the vows we took.  But not her, she was willing to do the work to save our marriage.

I told her I'm not moving out.  I tried to acknowledge and validate how difficult this is for her, but that I'm not leaving the house.  She kept yelling that this was my choice and I should deal with the consequences.  Told me I should go stay with my mom (since "there have been three people in this marriage for a long time anyway"--again back to her issues with me having a close relationship with my mom).

I told her I would not leave the house.  Told her that I understand that it's painful for her, and that she needs to do what she needs to do to take care of herself, but that she will not dictate what I do.  Acknowledged that I am more than willing to sleep down the hall on an alternating basis (the couch in the playroom isn't all that great for my back but it's workable).  She insisted I would sleep there permanently and she would get the bed.  I know that was in anger since for the past two years she has spent almost every night falling asleep on the couch downstairs and not coming up until 3, 4, or even 5am.  Told her no, I would occasionally sleep in my own bed if for no other reason than for my back pain, and she yelled again that this was my choice.

She pressed a couple of times that we would tell the kids today.  I tried to stay very calm but was insistent that now is not the time.  The conversation did get to what to do about the house. Predictably, she wants to sell it so that neither of us has it.  I knew she would struggle with the idea of me keeping the house, because she thinks it makes her look like the one who left, the bad guy.  She is also upset at the idea of how she will feel about dropping the kids off in the future at what was supposed to be "our" house. But by keeping the house, the kids stay at their assigned school and maintain some essential stability.  And of th two of us, I’m the one who can most likely afford to do it.

Inevitably he discussion came to finances, and I ended up having to acknowledge that I have spoken with an attorney, which also upset her a lot.  She decided I have all the power and that I'm going to make this adversarial.  I tried to tell her that I don't want this to be any more adversarial or expensive than necessary for either one of us. I also stressed vehemently that I have no intention of alienating her from the kids. She asked me to seriously consider a collaborative divorce route, where we both sign on with one attorney to manage the negotiations between us. I agreed to consider it, but mainly because what I need to consider is how to manage more rage when I opt for keeping the attorney who I know will be looking out for me.

She seemed like she couldn’t get past feeling stupid for not knowing I had consulted an attorney or that I was in the place that I had gotten to.   She was so pissed to out that anyone knew about this before I told her.  That’s where the attacks on my moral character came in... .how clearly I’m a better actor and liar than she ever knew and I don’t have the moral character she thought I did.  She ended up leaving the house for a few hours... .I’m pretty sure to go ask her parents if she can borrow money to retain an attorney of her own if I don’t agree to go the collaborative divorce route.

When she got home later in the afternoon, she decided to give me an ultimatum that we tell the kids by tomorrow night or she will tell them herself.  Said that I can clearly live a lie for a while, but I nsisted she can not live a lie in front of the kids any longer than that.  Again started saying I’m clearly not the person she thought I was.  She insists that when telling he kids I own my decision to disregard my vows and leave the marriage.  She insists that I chose the easy way out rather than "doing the work" that's needed to save our marriage.

She's pissed that I have spoken to my therapist about this too, because she sees that as being a conflict with the marriage counseling we have been going through.  Forget the fact that I was driven to see a therapist of my own because of all the crazy-making, my emotional burnout, and eventual anxiety.  The marriage counselor would not be the one to help me with those things.  And of course as I started to grapple with the reality of what I needed to do, I would confide in and seek guidance from her.

So I’m incredibly exhausted and going to try to sleep soon, and hope tomorrow is a better day.

mw

You're right, a collaborative divorce is rarely attempted around here and probably most who try it find it fails and ends up delaying the divorce process.  Collaborative doesn't mix well with uncontrolled emotions and high conflict.

Divorce is there to manage the unwinding of a marriage.  One person can't block a divorce.  Whether she will come to terms with reality, or how soon it might be, time will tell.

Hi MW,

Wow, that's a lot to go through in a day. I hope you're hanging in there, though I know these things are in no way a walk in the park.

One thing that gave me some solace during my separation was knowing there are normal emotional and psychological stages to divorce. You are ahead of your soon-to-be-ex in processing the split, so your emotional stage will be different.

Here are some of the stages:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271676.msg12577883#msg12577883

This paragraph in particular might help frame how she's feeling, versus how you are feeling:


It sounds like you are feeling relief, distance, impatience, resentment, whereas she is feeling shock, betrayal, loss of control, victimization, etc.

Being BPD will likely make it harder for her to resolve her grief. Here's hoping that while she struggles with BPD, she is not necessarily a high conflict personality in the way Bill Eddy describes.

It sounds like you did an amazing job of staying calm and not engaging in the fight.  That is the thing I am most worried about when telling my husband.  I just read an article the other day about how one should do exactly what you did, state the facts and try to discuss plans, and not engage in the "you did this, you did that" back and forth.  The author, a marriage counselor, said in all her years counseling couples, she's never gotten a couple who eventually splits to agree on history.  And it's not our job to get them to agree, just to accept the facts that we want to divorce. 

My uBPD (did I use that right, is that undiagnosed BPD?) stb-ex is very manipulative as well.  He cannot understand why I still want a divorce when he has done AB and C and XYZ or when we have some good times.  He seems to think during each good time, that the slate is wiped clean of all his past bad behaviors and hurtful words and temper tantrums.  They don't understand how utterly exhausting, draining and emotionally painful it is to have years and years of crap heaped on to you, while occasionally getting a break from a good spell.  I actually believe the good spells are worse than the bad, because the good spells are what keeps me around year after year.  If he was miserable to be around all the time, it would be so much easier to leave.

Do you think the two of you can somehow live under the same roof during the proceedings?  Do you think her not wanting to move out is more manipulation, hoping that after some time the anger will pass and you'll change your mind?  Did you tell your kids yet?  I'm glad to hear that it sounds like you have caring inlaws who won't turn on you throughout this.  My inlaws are good too, though during our separation (it didn't last, I stupidly took him back) we all avoided talking about it like a huge elephant in the room.  That has been hard.

I wish you the best!

Thank you ForeverDad for the confirmation that collaborative divorce is likely not the way to go.  I was pretty certain of this on my own, but it really helps to have others weigh in.

And thank you livednlearned for the references to psychological stages.  It's good to think of reactions in that context.


Yes, this exactly WantToBeFree!  This seems to have been the perspective of my stbx when trying to process my need to separate and ultimately divorce.  She kept going back to the good times we were able to have over the past few months as we were going through marital counselling, and she would completely gloss over the blow-ups, the breakdowns, the pressure she would put on me to be more emotionally available, etc.  Just because we were able to get along sometimes, she translated that into us making progress and repairing our relationship--which we really hadn't.


Ultimately, we won't be able to live under the same roof as the law in our state requires living separate and apart for one full year before a divorce can be filed.  Once that happens, the divorce itself is apparently fairly quick.  And part of her desire not to move out is her own emotional desire to hold on to what's half hers, but the majority of it is that she is in a much less favorable financial situation.  She can't afford to keep the house herself and couldn't qualify to buy her own just yet.  She'll have to rent someplace or move in with her parents.  The option to move in with her parents would be a huge blow to her ego (even beyond the divorce itself), and I know she'd be even more miserable there.  So although paying rent is not exactly desirable, I am trying to help her understand the benefits and how she might be able to make that work.

While I know a strictly collaborative approach won't work, I also don't not want to make this process any more adversarial than it has to be.   I realize that tends to be the nature of divorce--especially with a pwBPD--but I do want to approach this as collaboratively as possible.  I also very strongly want to avoid the drama and cost of having to go through formal mediation or litigation proceedings.  It is clear that my stbx is very concerned about making ends meet and establishing a workable arrangement, so while I am not going to let her back me into a corner with what she sees as the only viable (desirable to her) options, I do want to try to walk through the options in as non-threatening a way as possible. 

To that end, I sent her an email today with some thoughts about arrangements.  She had approached me with two options yesterday, trying make it sound like they were the only options, and she broke down because of her fear that she won't have any money to support herself.  I calmly told her that I didn't feel like those were the only options available, and that I would bring forward some of my own suggestions.  I wanted to do this because it offers me a way to assert some boundaries, express my genuine hope that she be successful, and tee up some things that I already had my attorney draft up.  I did run this communication by my L first, who told me she felt it was well-written and non-threatening, and that she agreed with me sending it.

Here's the communication, and I welcome feedback/additional thoughts:

uBPDw,

Per our text exchange this morning, I'm sending along some thoughts about arrangements so that we can continue the dialogue and try to establish some basic agreements in preparation for telling the kids.

I know this is a very upsetting, uncertain, and difficult time.  I want to reiterate from our discussion yesterday that I do not want you in a desperate situation where you are unable to make ends meet.  It is to our children's benefit that you are able to build your business and establish your own new home somewhere.  Beyond that, I personally really want you to be successful.

You presented me with two options yesterday for living arrangements (at least on a temporary basis):

Option A:  We alternate weeks living at the house for a transition period of approximately 3 months.  The kids would stay at the house for the duration. When not staying at the house, I would stay with my mom, and you would stay with your parents.[/li]

Option B: You stay with her parents full-time, and I would stay at the house.  The kids would alternate weeks staying with me and with you.[/li]

Given our children's ages (especially S5), I do not feel that alternating full weeks of custody is in their best interest.  I understand there will be an adjustment period with the transitions, but ultimately feel the stability of frequent contact with both parents is of a higher priority than avoiding hand-offs during the week (most of which would just mean someone different picks them up from school/YMCA).  l also strongly believe that getting them on this schedule sooner rather than later is important so that they can settle into what their new normal is going to be as far as time with each parent.

If you have a chance, maybe take a look at some of the calendar options available online.  There are some good visual examples at https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/.  I feel the 2-2-5-5 option that I mentioned yesterday offers the best predictability for the kids (and their friends, and us) as far as knowing they will be at one house or the other on Monday-Tuesday and Wednesday-Thursday, with alternating long weekends with each parent.  I am also open to other schedules, like the 3-4-4-3 model... .we can discuss any that you think you might prefer.

We have further agreed that stability for the kids is a top priority as we move through this separation, and that this stability includes letting them stay at the school where D9 is established, and with which S5 is familiar.  Any change to their school at this point would potentially result in them having to change tracks as well, which I think is undesirable for both of us.

This leads me to seeking an Option C (and beyond) for us to consider.  Our attorneys will have to help us navigate the details of equitable distribution, which would entail me taking on full responsibility for the mortgage and full ownership of the house, in addition to negotiating the allocation of any other debts and assets.  I do not expect to be able to refinance the mortgage immediately, but I don't anticipate that you will be ready to qualify for a new mortgage of your own in the immediate future, and our separation agreement will make it clear that payments on the current mortgage are my responsibility until an agreed-upon future date for refinancing in my name only. 

Based on the outcome of equitable distribution, I don't know that I would be able to pay out a lump sum in cash to you--especially since taking out any cash from the house would automatically require full repayment of the [foreclosure prevention] loan, which would have to come from both of us.  So for whatever difference may exist between our assets and debts, I anticipate a sum of funds to ultimately be QDRO'd over to you from my 401(k) to even out the balance.  At that point, you will have various assets to work with for establishing whatever living arrangements you choose, which could involve cashing out some of the investments or taking a loan against them to help with expenses until income from the firm ramps up.  I would also be open to reducing the QDRO amount by an amount placed on my Rooms To Go credit card in order to supplement furnishing of your new living space (as you would have some furniture from the house as well).

It is definitely not up to me to determine what you do with your assets and what living arrangements you ultimately choose.  I wouldn't like the idea of paying rent any more than you, for any longer than necessary.  The only thing I can say is that if it were me, I would do it for the sake of establishing at least an interim home somewhat close to the kids' schools, doctors, etc. where they would each have their own rooms.  If you do wish to pursue that option, I know there will be some logistical and financial preparation needed for the lease application, and we can discuss what to do over the next couple of months to help that go through successfully.

With regards to supporting the kids financially, I am on board to pay for the majority of their expenses for the term of the separation (before/after school and track-out care at the Y, health insurance, extra-curricular activities, etc), and you would essentially cover their groceries while they stay with you and any activities you three do during that time.

I want to help with this transition--to include support for your opportunities to develop your business--to the extent that I am able and that you are comfortable.  Let me know your thoughts, and we can continue to discuss potential adjustments to current living arrangements until the longer-term solution can be fully set up.

mw

This thought of Nesting — I am inclined to call this helicopter parenting but I fear that term has already been attributed to overanxious parents? — may be rooted in 'hopes' for the children to have stability, but is generally impractical and fails when there is parental conflict or discord.  Imagine ex claiming there is a need for her to remain longer or indefinitely in a shared/nesting home, maybe "I have to care for the sick child" or "My mother kicked me out" or "I lost my other place", etc.

It is far better for the parents to establish their own homes and the children to move between residences.  (It's also standard practice in almost every divorce, well, unless the parents are independently wealthy and can afford three homes.)  The benefits for you are many:

• Even if Nesting is only temporary arrangement, it weakens your ability to make decisions, ensuring payments are made, etc, regarding the residence.  Imagine if at the end of that period she then says "I still don't have somewhere to move" then what?
• Your home will be your home and yours alone.
• Your ex will not have any right to intrude into your home (without your express permission).
• The children will have stability, knowing that your home is yours.
• Providing for your home will be your responsibility, just as it will be ex's responsibility for ex's own home.  Yes, child support may impact a parent, but it is kept largely separate.
• Having separate homes makes it easier to keep financial expenses and related obligations separate.  If ex's residence faces foreclosure or eviction, it doesn't impact your residence.

That was her Option A.  Option B is also bad... .Kids would move back and forth but you would move out and she would remain in the house.  Why?  Would she pay the mortgage, real estate taxes and utilities while she is there?  How long would she live in the house?  Is the deed in her name, mortgage in her name and she has the larger investment in the house?  Unless you're sure she will end up with the house, then it will be even harder to get her to move out or "clawback".  How would you get her out after you're gone and she's ensconced there with it as her residence?

Typically our divorces are longer when there are custody struggles.  But another reason our divorces are longer is the struggle for the residence.  When we finally to get a court settlement or court decision, then what do we do if the other "slow walks" compliance?  What if neither parent can afford or wants the house?  If she is in residence, what if she doesn't prepare the house for cleaning, listing and showing?  What if she fails to pay "use and occupancy" will you then pay her portion to avoid foreclosure?  If she is to get the home and you are to hand her a "quit claim deed", what do you do if she then fails to get a new mortgage?  Imagine you complying with the terms so she owns the home and you are still the one obligated to pay the mortgage because she didn't comply by refinancing... .

To clarify for her Option B, I would be the one living in the house and she would be the one staying with her parents.  She already knows she can't take the house.  She can't afford it.  And in her mind, she can't afford to set up residence anywhere but her parents' house due to her reduced income as she has been starting her new firm for the past three months.  She does not want to entertain any possibilities for cashing out IRA or Roth IRA investments, or for taking a loan against 401(k) assets (which will end up increasing by tens of thousands of dollars from my account once we settle all of our debts and assets).  She resents that she may have to deal with the tax implications of these options, and instead wants me to provide alimony.

To be clear, I am definitely in the more favorable financial situation, and she hates it.  She has had so much control over me for so long... .so much control over decisions for years, whether directly through her emotional manipulations or indirectly through her impulsive spending and other choices.  It is really getting to her that she no longer has that control because I'm simply saying "that doesn't work for me" and she has no more leverage.

She pressed me again this morning for confirmation of what I told the MC prior to our session when I expressed my need to separate.  She simply can not grasp that I have no obligation to give her any of these details just because she feels like she needs them--and she is especially struggling with the fact that I am sticking to my guns and not letting her badger me into divulging any more information about what planning I did prior to telling her.

I really, really don't want to make this any more difficult on anyone than it already is.  She feels extremely entitled to continue getting her needs met, no matter what my needs are (because she decides what is fair), and that has been characteristic of our marriage for years.  For the past five years since I finished grad school, we have paid only interest on my $55k student loans, which adds up to almost $17k out the window just for the privilege of owing the money, and no reduction in actual debt.  I have carried us through her multiple unemployments, and we have carried other debts for the sake of paying off monthly spending that was beyond our monthly income.  And yet, all she sees now is that I'm leaving her in a bad spot to make tough decisions about how she is going to support herself.  She has always taken it for granted that she could just keep taking what she needs.

So, I continue working on my boundaries.  I will not be leaving the house and living elsewhere, even part time.  And I'm on board for 50/50 custody, so she'll have the kids for half the time.  Our legal separation period required for a divorce to go through cannot formally begin until she's out, but I am open to her staying here for 2-3 months while she makes preparations to get an apartment.  Me sleeping on the couch in the playroom hasn't been so bad as a temporary measure, though she would have to sign a contract that puts a deadline on that arrangement (maybe reducing the amount of assets that I transfer over to her with each week she stays beyond the deadline).  She is free to establish her own boundaries about not wanting to stay under the same roof as me, in which case it is up to her to decide if she can arrange for an apartment now, or if she wants to live with her parents for a few months before she's able to get that set up.  If she chooses to live with her parents, then the commute twice a day to bring the kids out to school near the house and pick them up again after work will be unpleasant for her.  Her other option is to use the assets she has to get that apartment closer to the kids' school, doctors, etc.  But that's her choice to make.

mw

Hi Mamawolf,
    I just wanted to stop by and say that I just finalized a divorce with some similar circumstances.  My dBPDxh had not worked for 7 years when I demanded a therapeutic separation that move to legal separation and finally divorce.  I'm now watching (from afar) as he burns through the marital assets he was awarded at an alarming speed because I'm not there to prevent or clean up his messes.  But I digress.
    I really wanted "nesting" to work.  I really wanted to think that we could keep the kids in their home all the time and just rotate ourselves through, but maintaining two households where we shared both, just alternating residences, would have meant he was always in "my space" and leaving messes or moving things or snooping.  And maintaining 3 residences was out of the question financially.  So we agreed to the more traditional two households with the kids rotating. 
    The one thing I did a bit differently, that I think worked out in the end, was to be the one to move out, at least temporarily.  dBPDh did not want the separation and was refusing to leave the house.  I had gotten to a place where I HAD to be away from him and moving out gave me control of when that would happen.  It gave him space and time to realize that he couldn't keep the house financially or upkeep (he didn't pick up after our 3 dogs for 3 months... .the first thing I did when I moved back into the family was home was to scrub the piles of poo of the back deck). 
    Not saying that you should be the one to move out, and you definitely want to consult your lawyer about any long term implications, but you may want to consider whether this is a concession that might buy you something bigger in the long term.
    My thoughts are with you.
BG

Hi BG,

Thank you for sharing your experience!


Yes, this is one major factor in my reluctance to give spousal support or any other "free money" in addition to whatever assets my stbx is going to walk away with.  She already mismanages her money, and putting me on the hook to send her more is going to be the equivalent of tossing it in the fire.  At least if she has to borrow from herself (401k loan) or even cash out assets and pay the tax penalties for it, that's one additional layer of consequences that she'll have to deal with.  Her T has already encouraged her that working for herself is a good way to keep herself accountable financially, because she knows that if she doesn't work, she doesn't eat (figuratively speaking).

My thought is that if it's too big of a sticking point that she's not receiving regular payments from me in spousal support, and she doesn't want to take money from any of her investment accounts, then I would recommend (through my L) that we increase the amount transferred from my retirement account by the few thousand dollars that she would end up paying in tax penalties.  That way, it's neutral for her on some financial level.  Plus it keeps the pressure on to work and build her business.


It's a point worth considering, sure.  She has already said she wouldn't want to keep "our home" on her own... .and she expected me to feel the same, which upset her pretty bad when I told her I didn't. 

Plus, she has no way to support the house financially.  And I have no way to support myself financially plus paying for the house, utilities, maintenance, etc. in addition to supporting the majority of the kids' costs for the period of the separation.  She also just plain can't handle taking care of a house that size on her own.  There's always the chance that she could surprise me, but from what I know of her general energy level, what I know of her poor time management, and what I expect to be a difficult adjustment period to no having the kids around half the time... .she wouldn't be able to do it.

mw

Well, I got a text from my L this afternoon asking if I'm available next Wednesday for mediation.  I was totally confused, because as far as I know, the initial drafts went to opposing counsel on Monday and there has been no response.  I played phone tag with my L this afternoon, and have plans to talk by phone in the morning.  How can we go to mediation without having had at least one round of negotiations?

Then there's the exchange with my stbx this evening, since we're still under the same roof and attempting to keep some semblance of civility in front of the kids.  I told her I got a text about potential mediation next week, and said I have no interest in escalating to mediation with no indication of counter offer, no discussion beforehand.  I was trying to reassure her that I'm not trying to cause the additional cost of the mediation step (paying a third professional, etc).

My stbx's response was that my L has a reputation for not settling anything prior to mediation, and why should she pay the money to have her L respond to my initial drafts at all since it's just going to end up in mediation anyway.  I am so baffled.  By not responding at all, THEY are the ones forcing the mediation issue... .not my L.  Yet she still blames me (of course).  I'm the one who "forced the divorce" so of course everything is ultimately my doing.  I just need her to come to the table, but of course she resents that.  She just wants me to roll over and offer her everything.

I just don't get it.  Either you're willing to negotiate or you're not.  But I get blamed if you're not.  It's exhausting.

mw

MW,

I would encourage you to push forward to mediation... .this seems very quick... which is good.  Less time for your stbex to stew over things.

I would encourage you to be thoughtful and separate two big concepts.

1. How you settle things

2.  That things actually are settled.


I see a lot of "me" in you.  I'm a process guy... .and I like my processes.  Ls negotiating seems to me.  However... .mediation could work as well, especially if it's one of those things where you each are in different rooms and there is shuttle diplomacy.

The important part is you separate "what you want" and "what you will go to trial over".  Obviously you don't give up "go trial" issues in mediation.

My ex brother in law said mediation really helped him and my SIL... .(who is BPDish).

I would go for it.

Give up process and go for "quicker is better".

Thoughts?

FF

Hi mama-wolf,

Just keep in mind that you might not settle everything in mediation and you don't have to settle everything in mediation.  Don't agree to anything you don't agree with.

That said you may be able to resolve some issues if not all in mediation which might speed some things up and cost less.

If you decide on mediation definitely let us know there are strategies for a mediation that the members here can share.

Go in with a plan, know what you want, and know what your deal breakers are.

Panda39

It's hard to lose control

You were able to be first to retain an L, file for divorce, set the timeline, and have financial leverage going into negotiations. That's a lot of one-ups.

Thru her L, she has some say now in what works best for her. The request to go straight to mediation (it can be an efficient way to handle negotiations), especially if your L has a high percentage of cases mediated (this is a number that your L may be able to give you).

There will be lots more of this back and forth, having control and losing it, before everything is signed.

It's really, really tough.


It is exhausting, period. Depending on how her BPD traits present, you may get more done in a day of mediation than the alternative. A lot of people on the FL board experience excessive stonewalling and obstruction from their BPD ex.

If your L is a skilled mediator, he or she might be able to hasten things.

Thank you for chiming in FF!  You are spot-on that I am pretty process-oriented, so I recognize the desire on my part to follow a particular order.  But it's more than that.  Mediation carries additional cost with it... .cost that I really don't want to pay if it can be avoided, and cost that my stbx really can't afford.  I don't intend to press for a lot of back-and-forth prior to moving towards mediation.  I just need to have at least some understanding of where they are coming from (which we would have to identify for mediation anyway).

She's angry with me for getting an attorney in the first place, particularly a litigator.  She has decided it would have been better if the attorney I selected was one who practices "collaborative divorce."  That is of course a prime example of her deciding what's good for me based on how it impacts her, rather than her caring one bit about my needs (which in this context is completely understandable, but it's indicative of the dynamic in our relationship which has led us to this point).  And I'm of course not going to tell her that the collaborative approach doesn't tend to work out with someone who has her issues anyway.

She tells me that from what her L told her, my L never settles without going to mediation.  And that my L's motivation for going to mediation is typically based on an additional kick-back, additional payment for the mediation fees.  I'm not going to expend too much energy trying to convince her otherwise.  Mediation may in fact be the only way forward, but it won't be because my L is out to line her pockets more.  I  have at least tried to reassure my stbx that I am the client and I will decide when it's time to take that step.  I just need her to come to the table to start with so that we can truly decide whether it's necessary to go that next step.


Absolutely--thank you Panda39!  I have a general sense for the upper limit I'm willing to agree to that will come out of my retirement account.  I have also communicated some things to my L about how to help my stbx get some cash on the table (not a lot available for that) and/or transfer some more debt over to me to free up a bit more of her credit.  Any of that additional debt transfer would have to come out of whatever agreed upon amount is to go over to her from my retirement.  For my stbx, i's all about the money... .

At the moment, those seem to be the only issues that are really contested, but that could just be because she hasn't communicated anything more to me.  She doesn't like that I intend to keep the house, but she at least recognizes the stability that provides for the kids, and she knows she can't afford it.  We both already agree to 50/50 custody, and just need to figure out the schedule.  I'm struggling to figure out what else she could be hung up on that would require mediation.


Yes livednlearned, she says she feels stupid and no longer trusts me.  I can tell she thought she had me so much under her control that she could not even conceive of me managing to have a mind of my own and the backbone to make some very tough decisions.  And last night, she tried to make me doubt my selection for my L because she called into question whether her fee structure was "in my best interest."  She really didn't like when I told her I decide what's in my best interest or not.


The thing is... .she says she doesn't want to go to mediation (particularly for the additional cost beyond hiring a L in the first place).  She's angry with me for using a L who "always" goes to mediation.  But when I ask her what else we're supposed to do when there is no answer... .?  Blank look.  Or better than that, a "see what you get" look.   When she did that, I had to tell her I don't know what that face means.  It doesn't move us forward at all.  I told her she's the one choosing mediation if she's not willing to engage in any discussion otherwise.

At this point, I'm just venting a little.  You are all really great and supportive, and provide great insights.  I know this is all part of divorcing a pwBPD.  It. Just. Sucks.

mw

MW,

The faster you get to mediation, the less time your L can bill for fees for negotiating back and forth.

It will cost one way or another.  I would encourage you to really think about going to mediation as "avoiding" cost... .rather than incurring cost.

As you have written about her distorted thinking about her bringing up mediation but not wanting to go... .but "having" to go because of the L YOU picked!  She wants to go to mediation but doesn't want to own the decision.

Please... .is this a person you can "negotiate" with?  Is this a person you want to incur billable time with lawyers while she changes her mind and feels more victimized?

As time passes... .do you really expect her to "come around" to your way of thinking and "be reasonable"... ."poof"... .I'm not a reasonable divorce partner.

Trying to be realistic here. 

Once the divorce is "over"... .and there is nothing more to argue about... .there is a chance for her to "become more moderate" as she accepts things.

From everything I understand about your partner... .she "chaffes" at not getting things her way (remember stories in MC about her "disengaging"

She is going to "chaffe" at any of your legal processes.  ANYTHING you can do to STOMP the accelerator and get closer to "over" is better for you and your children... and your stbex.

Do not pass go... .hurry to mediation as fast as possible.

Note:  Be ready for her to "flip" and not want to go... .have a settlement ready to go so you can avoid mediation.  (I know that doesn't make sense)

Don't be "happy" about mediation... .more of a "Ok... since you want to go... " kinda thing

Thoughts?

FF

reality check

"We" aren't going to decide anything.  You imposed divorce and perhaps she is trying to "impose" mediation ... perhaps she is not. 

Please... .get rid of the "we" thinking.  It's about "me" (you).

Get away from process and focus on getting to the end... .ASAP... .before she wants a detour.

FF

All very good points!  I just need to clarify that the attorney I chose charges a flat fee, so I have already paid for a certain amount of her time for negotiation, and mediation would be an incremental increase in cost for me.

Having said that, I just got off the phone with my L, and she confirmed that if going to mediation this early in the process, her flat fee covers her participation in the mediation.  She said that if she had been working on my case for six months, then at that point some additional fees would be incurred.   So for right now, my only additional cost will be my half of the mediator's fees.  My stbx, on the other hand, will now have to pay the hourly rate for her L, plus her half of the mediation fees, and then any additional time spent by her L in finalizing documentation for us to sign, file, and be done.

Based on this, I did agree to proceed with mediation next Wednesday, but with the condition that if we don't have a counter-proposal before then the mediation appointment will have to be rescheduled.

So, positive progress, I think... .?

And you're right--it's not a "we" decision anymore.  Ultimately I am (and must continue) deciding what's best for me.

mw

So... .hopefully there is an "agreement" you can read about what a flat fee covers.

Unfortunately in my life... .I've had to hire/work with many attorneys and I just hired my first one on a flat fee agreement.

A relatively simple matter to transfer one piece of real estate per a will.  So... .flat fee is appropriate.

I can't imagine how flat fee would work in a divorce.

I'm glad your L seems flexible and will include it in the flat fee... but that kinda says that it isn't exactly a flat fee.

 red-flag   just keep your eyes open.

FF

I would request this... .but if there is no counter proposal... I would go to mediation.

Don't fight over process... .when that fight will cause delay.

Stomp the accelerator.

FF

I'm really sorry you have to go through this, MW.

Maybe try to prepare for what Wed will be like, including if it's better to be in the same room, or separate rooms. There are pros and cons to both.

What do you anticipate will happen in mediation?

MW,
I'm not sure if differences in state law impact the mediation/separate lawyers dynamic you will experience vs what I experienced, but I'll give you my experience and a few learnings I had that I hope help you along the way.

I opted to start with mediation.  If you remember, dBPDxh was not wanting the legal separation, so I knew that I was going to have my foot on the accelerator and he was going to have his on the brake, so to speak.  I found a few mediators that I would be happy with and gave him the option to choose between them or suggest someone else for me to review.  At this point I had identified a law firm I was interested in but had not met with or retained a lawyer.  dBPDxh asked that I go ahead and choose the mediator.  I scheduled the appointment.  In our first meeting with the mediator she established that she was not representing either of us.  She was there to help us through the process and clarify any legal questions.  She STRONGLY recommended that we each have our own lawyer review our proposals and the final agreement, but that was up to each of us individually.  She would ensure that the final proposal was written up properly and had all the required discovery and forms, but would prefer that one of our lawyers do the actual filing.  That was the process for me.

Learnings:
1.  dBPDxh wasn't going to do anything to further the process, so discovery and proposing agreements and offering options were up to me.  Based on my experience, I'm not surprised that your stbxw has not countered.  I also wouldn't be surprised if she comes totally unprepared, seems victimized by all of your proposals, but has no alternative suggestion.
2.  It's really easy to get hung up in the details.  dBPDxh wanted an accounting of and "his share" of any loyalty points.  I'm a little surprised he didn't want half the free burrito we would get in just 4 more visits to the local Mexican chain.  Knowing the value of (and potential cost of transferring) loyalty stuff like airline miles, hotel points, etc became important... .see #1.
3.  "Standard" agreements may not get you what is most important to you, but they will be the fastest to negotiate.  My priorities in my negotiations were to not have to depend on dBPDxh for even his "fair share" of financial support for our kids and to never have to write him a check for anything.  That meant the standard calculation tools for child support, spousal support, and 50/50 split of marital assets ("standard" agreement) were not all that helpful.  Fortunately, we had a mediator who was willing to explain over and over to dBPDxh how my offer differed from a standard agreement but agreed that my proposal gave the same "net benefit" to dBPDxh.  In fact, he most likely got a better deal, but mediator was careful to leave any advising to dBPDxh's lawyer, which leads me to... .
4.  pwBPD don't always make good lawyer selections.  {gasp!}.  I know.  I shouldn't have expected anything different.  In my case, dBPDxh chose a young, unknown, overworked lawyer.  I seriously doubt he got anything of value from his lawyer.  That's why I'm doubly glad that we went through mediation and I was able to hear the legal clarifications dBPDxh was hearing and that MY lawyer was in charge of all the filings.  My lawyer was also good about being the one to push and let me know the risk points and potential remediation for stall tactics.  
5.  As logical as you may think you are and will be, you will find yourself thinking and behaving in an irrational manner.  A good mediator will call you out on it in a constructive way, so be ready to listen for it.

As far as cost goes, I did not involve my lawyer in the mediation.  I consulted with her early in the process to get enough information about the key areas we would be negotiating and answer my most burning questions, then I relied on the mediator and my own research during the mediation process.  I knew that nothing would be binding until we had a chance for our lawyers to review our proposed final agreement and that I could reach out to her if I didn't feel like the mediator was able to answer my questions (which she couldn't when it pertained to what would be in my best interest over dBPDxh's).  Ultimately, my lawyer only made minor tweaks that added extra protections to what I worked out with the mediator (I can't really use the word "we" because dBPDxh never once offered a solution, just objected or conceded to what I and/or mediator proposed).

Let me know if you have any questions.  

BG

Mediation is a place to try for a settlement.  However, that does not mean you must settle then.  (Too often in high conflict cases the disordered parent is still too entitled or controlling to be able to seriously negotiate.)  If her position is unreasonable or inflexible, then it's fine to state to the mediator that mediation has failed and exit.  Sometimes a mediator can't report to the court anything more than "mediation failed" or perhaps only the items that were resolved.

In a contested divorce mediation is usually ordered immediately after temporary orders are issued.  If it failed the first time you may be able to avoid a repeat, just be sure you don't appear the one unwilling to negotiate.  "Your Honor, we just tried mediation a month ago and it failed.  What is the next step?"

Very important. 

I realize this isn't the process you "want"... but use every angle of this to your advantage.  Perhaps... you actually walk out with an acceptable agreement.

FF

BG thank you so much for taking the time to describe your experience so thoroughly!  It's very helpful to see how this has gone for others.


Yes, it's a fascinating contradiction where she accuses me of dragging things out, but she doesn't want to engage in the process.  And she gets mad at me for offering options.


YES--I'm seeing this for sure.  My stbx made a point of telling me how she was pulling the dollar values for all the work we had done on the house when we moved in four years ago (new carpet, new paint in almost every room, blinds on some windows) and since (totally new HVAC and hot water heater three years ago).  It's clear she is looking for all opportunities to put a few more dollars in her column and was trying to make me worry about that.  My L just shrugged and said sometimes folks just can't see the forest for the trees and is trying to keep me focused on the big picture.


FD this statement in particular stuck out to me because this is exactly what I'm dealing with... .my stbx's exaggerated sense of entitlement.  And her near-panic about her loss of control over me--especially since I have chosen a path that puts significant buffers between me and her in this process.  I really hope I can rely on those buffers (attorney and mediator) to help things keep moving along, especially since she really is motivated for this to end sooner rather than later due to the potential cost of drawing things out or going to litigation.

I really am willing to negotiate, and will do everything I can to make sure that's very apparent.

mw

I might advise you not "to do everything you can"... .that might fall in the "over-functioning"  category.

It will be obvious that you have options and you are willing to listen to see if something she proposes is workable.


Here is the thing... .you get no "points" for proving to a disordered person that you can compromise.  Likely you will wear yourself out, with not much to show for it.

Grab openings when they show up!

FF

My T had me write a note to myself prior to mediation, to serve as a reminder about what my bottom line was. She also talked directly to my L (with my permission) and told her that I would likely self-sabotage, which I attempted to do (by giving away too much in the hopes the conflict would end, or he would give me something in return).

That was a good tactic because mediators and lawyers sometimes pride themselves on settling out of court, which is a bit different than priding themselves on getting you the best outcome. They just assume that mediation is a better outcome than court, but that is not often true for people who end up on this board.

BPD pathology makes it hard for exes to move on, so the conflict often doesn't end when you give them more than what is reasonable. In fact if you give something up, it can actually perpetuate conflict because they experience a payoff for pushing.

Your ex may be different than this... .my ex (who is also an L) would agree to things and then afterward fight his own agreement Every. Step. Of. The. Way. He was relatively agreeable in mediation. It was after the papers were signed that the conflict took on a life of its own.

I look back now and can see how loose the language of our settlement order was. And it shocked me how fast and careless the Ls were with tens of thousands of dollars, back of the napkin calculations and what not. And what the mediator wrote up was vague to the point of being useless for some things that you would think were critically important.

I hope things go well next week for you, and that your L turns out to be skillful in mediation.  |iiii

LnL

I realized I hadn't updated this thread with the actual outcome of mediation.  It was a long 10 hours, but I did go into it knowing what my absolute limits were.  They were pushed ever so slightly on the financial terms, but it ultimately bought me some of the intangible wins that I think will ultimately be more important.  I didn't mind spending the time in the room with my L, knowing she was keeping me from being too accommodating while staying focused on the end goal of getting it done with.  She had an opportunity to share with me some other experiences she has had with BPD, which was a comfort as well.

It was also at least partially validating that by the end of the evening, the mediator was so done with my STBX, I knew he understood why we were divorcing.  It didn't feel good knowing that she was clearly a mess by that point (he said he was starting to question if she was even competent at that point to sign anything), but we were able to finish and be formally separated as of that night.

So, here's the breakdown... .

My initial proposal:

• No spousal support
• STBX stays on my health insurance for the year of separation until divorce
• I stay in the house and take over the mortgage (I will be able to qualify for refinance based on my salary, and she wouldn't)
• Other debts split based on account ownership
• $28k transferred from my 401(k) to STBX's 401(k) to balance those debts
• Custody split 50/50 on a 2-2-5-5 schedule
• Both parents (but mostly for STBX's sake of course) continue with current therapy until released by provider
• Family therapist engaged to help kids through transition and assist with co-parenting issues
• Kids stay at currently-assigned school until D9 completes 5th grade (so, for two years), at which point she would have to change schools anyway to go to middle school
• No child support
• I pay kids' before/after school care and track-out camp costs for the year of separation, then split costs 50/50
• I keep the kids on my health insurance, and I also pay in-network healthcare costs for the year of separation, then split costs 50/50 upon divorce
• I pay all other expenses (clothes, extra-curricular activities, etc.) for the year of separation except groceries and any activities the kids do with Daire, then split 50/50 upon divorce

Her counter-proposal:

• No spousal support
• STBX stays on my health insurance for the year of separation until divorce
• I take the house, assume mortgage, etc.
• Other debts split based on account ownership, but I pay STBX $20k in cash STBX to balance those debts
• $57k transferred from my 401(k) to hers
• Custody split 50/50 on a 2-2-5-5 schedule
• Non-custodial parent has right of first refusal to keep the kids if the custodial parent has to be away for a business trip
• Kids stay at currently-assigned school until D9 completes 5th grade (so, for two years), at which point she would have to change schools anyway to go to middle school
• D9 will immediately terminate her current therapy sessions with T, and will be evaluated at a psychology practice that STBX chose (who she knows is out of network for insurance)
• I pay STBX $513/mo in child support
• I pay kids' before/after school care and track-out camp costs indefinitely (factored into child support calculations in addition to costs for carrying the health insurance)
• I keep the kids on my health insurance, and I also pay healthcare costs for the year of separation, then split costs 75/25 upon divorce
• I pay 75% of all other kids' expenses, and she pays 25% indefinitely

Final result after mediation:

• No spousal support
• STBX stays on my health insurance for the year of separation until divorce
• I take the house, assume mortgage, etc.
• Other debts split based on account ownership, but I make an immediate payment of $10k to STBX's credit card to balance those debts (I did a 0% balance transfer onto one of my cards)
• $42.5k transferred from my 401(k) to hers
• Custody split 50/50 on a 2-2-5-5 schedule (and I was able to set the start date in such a way that aligns with several plans I was trying to make for the coming year so that I will not have the kids on those weekends)
• NO right of first refusal in the event of business trips (would benefit her way more than me since I travel for work approx. once a month)
• Kids stay at currently-assigned school until D9 completes 5th grade (so, for two years)
• I pay STBX $300/mo in child support (subject to subsequent re-evaluation of income, since STBX's income is expected to increase)
• I pay kids' before/after school care and track-out camp costs indefinitely (factored into child support calculations in addition to costs for carrying the health insurance)
• I pay 70% of all kids' expenses, and she pays 30% indefinitely (subject to subsequent re-evaluation of income, since STBX's income is expected to increase)
• We engage the services of a parent coordinator to make the final decision on any topic that we get gridlocked on (but I pay the initial retainer and then we split the cost 70/30 like all the rest

The schedule with the kids is a little different for the first month due to my business trips and the beach vacation that her side of the family takes.  The kids are with each of us for slightly longer periods over the next few weeks, and it will be good to settle into a more regular schedule as they start back in school.  And finally, my STBX will move the bulk of her things out in late July, and I can start to truly make the house my own.

mw

So... .facts and figures are there.

How do you "feel" about it.  Have you discussed with T yet?

FF

Hi FF--I thought those details were better suited for the Detaching board here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326282.0

mw

If she has any claim to the house, such as being on the deed, make sure she signs quit claim deed relinquishing her marital or financial interest in the home.  Make it enforceable, such as with Leverage.  One type of Leverage would be that she would need to sign such paperwork before she gets all the cash she's supposed to get.  Even if the divorce isn't done yet, it can still be signed, notarized or whatever and then held in escrow by your attorney.

Also, make sure a check isn't written from your retirement account and handed to her.  Probably this needs to be done by way of a QDRO, a Qualified Domestic Relations Order.  Why?  If she cashes it and spends it before it officially gets into her own retirement account then you will be stuck paying the government's tax and penalty on the Distribution.

What I did was this... .My lawyer let me use QDRODesk website to process the paperwork for the court to review and approve.  It saved me several hundred dollars since money was tight then.  You can use whatever company you lawyer recommends if you don't want to deal with the paperwork.  Once the DRO papers were confirmed as Qualified (QDRO) my retirement account provider created an account in my ex's name and then the specified amount was deducted from my account and transferred to her account.  At that point she was in control of the funds and it was all her financial responsibility henceforth.  If she then moved it to another  retirement provider, fine.  If she cashed it out then the distribution tax and penalty were totally hers and I was still fine.

Generally one parent is designated the Primary Parent or Residential Parent or some similar term.  Is that her?  With equal time and joint custody it may not legally mean much more than that the children attend schools based on where she lives.

Also, is there any risk of her later choosing to send the children to private schools?  You may be figuring you can afford to send the kids to public schools since they're standard.  But private schools generally have high tuition costs that you may not be anticipating.  Should you make sure the deal limits the expense of schooling to what public schools would cost?  (Same goes for terms, if any, made regarding colleges or universities, make sure you didn't agree to colleges you can't afford when the time comes.)

FD makes a really good point about leverage.

The injury of losing control will likely not get easier for your ex. If she is like my ex, she will get stuck in a loop of eternal rehashing, incapable of repairing and recovering and moving on. Many of us found that our exes would stonewall and obstruct as a way to stay negatively engaged.

It took me four trips to court to get the title of my car transferred to my name, and four trips to court to get my ex to refi the house that I gave him. It cost him nothing (lawyer) to go to court, whereas for me it was hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars.

Anything you have that might motivate her, wherever possible try to hold onto it until she has abided the terms of the order.

Family law court is terrible at enforcing orders, so we have to figure out loopholes to move things forward.

Thank you for these points, FD!  Yes, the deed is being prepared by my L, and will be held in trust by her L until I complete refinancing.  And absolutely (in part thanks to similar advice I have seen you provide someone else on this board) the 401(k) funds will be transferred by QDRO only. 

With regards to Primary Parent, I thought I was clear on that point, but guess I'm really not sure how that's handled here, so I did send a follow-up question to my L.  I take it that with us electing to use a parent coordinator then that person will be the tie-breaker.  But I will definitely get further clarification!

It is unlikely that she would try the private school route (neither of us has had much interest in that option for the kids, nor did we have any interest in the cost)... .but I understand the parent coordinator to be my resource--at least for now--to prevent that from happening.


Yes lnl, I can very much see the struggle with loss of control.  Right now it is only manifesting itself in many different emails about all of the time she has had to spend in getting different financial details squared away on her end.  And two very snippy and slightly long messages through the co-parenting web-service we signed up for. 

One of those messages was about packing the kids up for their time with her this week.  She had sent a text last night about toiletries they didn't need to bring.  She was supposed to bring the kids by the house this evening (I'm away on a business trip) to get their clothes, etc. When I sent her a message this morning that clean clothes were folded and laid out for her to choose from, she fired off a long message about how I was supposed to know that her text about the toiletries meant she expected me to pack them up completely and she didn't have time to spend packing them up after driving all the way to get them and to the house to pick up their things.

Then later, in response to me mentioning a possibility of FaceTime with the kids this evening (because they had asked me when I dropped them off at school on my way to the airport), she fired off another snippy message about how too much FaceTime would be like "picking at the scab" and that we should set some guidelines.  She complained about how I didn't encourage D9 enough to talk to her on the TWO occasions his past weekend that she wanted to FaceTime the kids (the kids didn't ask for the second round and actually said no at first), and how I made S5 think it wasn't important since I left him to talk to her alone and didn't sit with him to keep the conversation going (I went upstairs to work on laundry and give them privacy).  She tried to tell me that the contact was for the benefit of the kids and the non-custodial parent.

For both messages, I tried to use BIFF as much as possible.  I didn't take the bait on several statements she made, and generally stayed as friendly as I could while still being firm.  For example, I will not be obligated to sit and "chat" with her for the sake of making a show for the kids.  That first conversation was bad enough for me, thank you.

So, yes... .I can see her seriously struggling with the fact that she does not control me anymore.  And I'm starting to struggle myself (A LOT) with the realization of just how much she did control me.

mw

Hi mama-wolf, I'm just dropping in on your thread  :)

This sounds like something important to nail down:


I could envision a time in the future when the PC is gone -- either retires/moves/whatever, or maybe you and xSpouse agree "Things are going great! We think we can handle this without PC". Then maybe a big disagreement comes up, and because PC has left with his/her tiebreaker vote, it's just you and xSpouse in a stalemate. Now sounds like a good time to tie up ends that could be loose in the future.

One way to think about it is this: it's not "mean" for you explicitly to be the primary parent. Some other members here have had a tough time being in the situation where they have final say about the other parent's parenting time, or schedule with the kids, or whatnot. It can feel like you're being "unfair" to the BPD parent to have that role. But think about it this way -- which one of you, having the primary parent role, would be more flexible? More willing to support the kids' relationship with the other parent? You, or her?

Let your sense of equality and fairness (tempered with safety and reality) shine through AFTER positioning yourself to be the one with the final say about what's good for the kids. Does that make sense?

Interesting opportunity about the FaceTime stuff, too:


I wonder if you can "see" her bet and "raise" her? "Sure! Good idea about setting FaceTime guidelines. How about A, B, and C?" (and then get it written into the parenting plan?)

I'm thinking about this because I wonder -- and you know her best -- if she is the kind of parent who would try to abuse FaceTime by making constant calls, stretching the length, and generally trying to insert herself into your parenting time. You can think about if making some enforceable guidelines (which are the same at both houses) now would help down the road.

Hope this helps, and nice to meet you :)

kells76

I sometimes write about my son's phone calls in our early years of separation and divorce.  They were ordered.  She almost always took her time, me and son, not so much.  He was interested in phone calls only when he had something to say.  He rearely started a call.  I recall one time, possibly still in kindergarten or early grade school, he called me so excited, he had to tell me about a near-accident he saw while they were driving. 

Conversely, when I was on vacation in the mountains I called her every few days and let them talk.  Lawyer had called saying she had tried for an Amber Alert on us and to please call her sometimes.  Evidently that was a deal he had worked out with the sheriff's investigator.  I replied she could have called us directly.  Lawyer said, "Yeah, but just do it this way, she doesn't want to call you."  I recall one of the calls where 4yo son said "bye" to her six times before she stopped talking and hung up.

Hi kells76 and thank you for dropping in!  Yes, I will absolutely follow up with my L to have a better understanding and get better structure around tiebreaker considerations--especially as they might be addressed in the future if no PC is in place.  I am definitely the more flexible and (in my mind at least) fair of the two of us, and would prefer to be in the position of primary parent mainly because of how controlling my stbx is.

(Side note:  It's funny... .I can't figure out how to refer to her now.  Is she still my stbx since the divorce won't be final for another year?  Or is she now my ex?)


FD, what you describe sounds very similar to D9's behavior as far as her not wanting to engage, but my stbx really wanting to talk to the kids (for her own sake, but telling herself it's for the sake of the kids).  I know this is hard on her, and I try to keep that in mind with each interaction.  We're still in a transition period, and I do expect we things to settle down over the next couple of months... .I just need there to be a balance.

I know all of this is particularly hard on her due to her own emotional issues, currently living with her parents until lining up someplace more long-term, and on top of it all she was rear-ended the day before our mediation.  While the car is currently functional, the rear bumper and trunk are smashed and there's a chance the car will be totaled.  That car had been paid off, but now she may end up with a car payment on top of all her other financial considerations.  The good news that with the mediation being completed, she can't come after me for more money for the time being.

mw