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I'm not sure how to handle this anymore.  I want to be empathetic, but how much is manipulation and control and how much of his behavior is because he is truly sick and needs me?  I feel trapped, frustrated and resentful that he gets to have someone that actually cares about how he feels in his life.  Help.  I have children that I have to think about too.  Not sure what steps to take.

You are in the right place.  write more when you are able.  There is caring here.  A lot of wisdom.

hang in there, j

Hi bloodbought,

I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling this way. You're not alone as many of us can relate. It's so hard to have what feel like unreasonable demands placed upon us when we have children to care for. I can imagine you're quite exhausted physically and emotionally. How old are the kids?

Can you tell us some examples of the behaviour you're referring to that causes you to feel frustrated? It's likely that others have experienced similar issues and can share with you how they manage this. We can help.

I'd encourage you to read and involve yourself in other threads as there is much to be gained from the community support here. I'll look forward to hearing more.

Love and light x

Hi Blood,

I am putting a link to your first post so people can read your story and you don't have to type it out again.  But please feel free to add more details or more current events that are causing you issues.

BloodBoughts First Post (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325641.0)

Here is something from another post I made for someone else but it is exactly what I would type to you as well.  Take a look and tell me what you think.


My further thoughts on this since that post are... Empathy is an important tool of understanding our fellow humans, but it should be carefully and thoughtfully applied so that you can move from empathy into compassion.

In reference to your question : I would say that mostly the manipulation is to get you to fulfill the need.  They are one and the same.  It is not vindictive.  his bahaviour has gotten you to do the behavior he wanted or needed.  So of course he is going to keep doing it.   All you can do is work on you,  and how you respond to those "requests" from him.  What do you think of that?

Thank you very much.  The information on compassion vs. empathy is very helpful.  From what I am learning, I think I am co-dependent and I am trying to learn more about what that means and how to stop doing some of these behaviors myself.  

I will try to post more individual things that happen so I can work through some of this, but my time is so consumed!  My husband also has a chronic digestive tract disease so I make every meal from scratch including condiments.  This is a big job and we run our own business.  I am the bookwork side of things while my husband does the physical labor aspect.  He is a hard worker and has supported us for 24 years while I homeschooled.  I still homeschool my youngest child but I am finished with the older three and they are all working now.  Two of them have moved out of the house.  My 20 year old daughter is still at home and has a chronic digestive tract disease as well.  But I do feel posting on here is such a big help and really does help me with my own mental issues!

An individual example of life in our house:  this morning I got up at 7 to juice wheatgrass and aloe for my husband and daughter.  I also prepare his breakfast and pack his lunch that I prepared the day before.  If the finished juice product is not at least 1 ounce or more, I get yelled at.  If his breakfast plate has any leftover liguid (juices from the food or condensation from microwaving something), I get yelled at.  I first prepare his food and make sure it is hot on one plate and then I transfer all food minus liquid onto a new clean plate.  I'm growing weary of this and it is causing resentment.  I feel like I might blow up every time I do it.  Anyway, this morning when I finished my routine he asked me to text him a phone number which I proceeded to do.  However, when I got done, he blew up at me and said he's sitting there waiting on me and I am too busy typing.  Well, yes, of course I'm sitting there typing because he just asked me to text him a phone number!  I am honestly having a very difficult time with this type of behavior.  It seems so selfish to me.  In the past, I would get upset and defend myself or the children.  this went on for years and he finally moved out into a camper we had on our property.  I don't know if this helped or hurt because he lived out there for five years and I just coped.  I feel like I just need to get through raising my children in the best way I can.  We moved to Florida a year ago so that he could be a legal medical marijuana patient for his a chronic digestive tract disease.  The marijuana usage has it's own set of issues, but I can't go into that right now as I need to process through this morning and yesterday's behavior with my youngest daughter.  Yesterday, he kicked the cat food bowl all over the yard repeatedly while yelling at my 11 year old daughter about how she didn't do what he told her to do.  truth is she DID do what she was told to do.  A couple of days ago, he had told me to get rid of the plastic cat bowls.  I thought he meant that my daughter had been putting too many cat bowls of water outside and not bringing them in as there were several cat bowls out there where he specifically called me to come and look at.  but he mumbles stuff under his breath and doesn't make things clear to us what he wants done.  first he yelled brief demands at me about the bowls then started shuffling around and mumbling.  after being yelled at so violently, I often don't hear what he then mumbles.  so, I go without information.  it's so frustrating.  I need the information, but honestly, I am SCARED to then ask for more information.  I've always wondered if he would one day hit me or the children.  He kicks things and breaks stuff about once a year, but it has been twice this week now.  Not sure why as nothing has happened or changed that I know of.  When we don't cater to him, this gets worse, but we have been trying to get along.  So, so , so tired of fighting this battle.  I think I've been trying to protect my children from his anger for years but there's just so much pressure that I feel like I am going to break.  Also, no one knows I am posting on this board.  After the initial fighting over this behavior many years ago, I began hiding my feelings and emotions from my family.  I don't know if my husband checks my computer or phone now, but he has in the past.  He is very controlling as well and keeps all the income from me.  he only gives me money in my account when he feels I need to do something for the family like grocery shopping.  I need help to think straight and sort through all of this.  

Oh Bloodbought.  That sounds horrible.    I can relate to that though.  In the beginning of my relationship, I was met with requests that I gladly did out of kindness.  This escalated over time into demands.  Then the demands became more frequent, accompanied by anger and impatience.   I just want you to know that I know how it feels... .once you are in it and you don't know what to do.

The hard truth here is ... .If you are doing it "wrong", whatever it is ... .:thought:... .why can't he do it?  But you can't phrase it like that.  That is my inner thought.  I express it differently.  More on that in a sec.

You might not be in that place yet, but that is really the final destination here.  With my wife, I have been using this approach.  You see, our BPD partners have never resolved any sort of disagreement in a civil manner.  They weren't shown how.  So you have to try to demonstrate it.

At the core of this behavior I believe is intense shame.  They know they aren't contributing to running the household.  They are aware and try to project the guilt and shame onto you.

I'll give you an example of a very recent convo with the wife.

I walk in the room.

W: "Next time you vaccum  get the corner of the ceiling.  There is a spider web."
Me: "OK, I'll try to remember, but if is bothering you, the vacuum is in the back room"
W:  "Oh of course,  I am a horrible person who doesn't do anything"
Me  "Not what I was trying to communicate. I always appreciate when you help"
W "your an ass, I'm going to bed"

See what I did there? :)
She made the assumption that it was my "job".  I gently offered an alternative.

Now, reading your story, I am sure you are dreading the anger that will accompany this approach.  That is where the hard work really is.   His anger has to not matter to you.
Because with all the hard work you are doing.  Is it making it better or worse?

And if there is anger, you need to work toward setting a boundary of what is acceptable behavior to you.  What you will tolerate before you remove yourself from the conversation.  This boundary is found as you find respect for yourself.  Because... .something to think about... .why is this behavior acceptable to you?  It's a very personal answer.

For me, the behavior and relationship demonstrated by my parents made me think that this kind of exchange was how relationships worked.  They don't.  It least not a healthy one.  It took me a while to realize that. Therapy helped me get there.  If you aren't in therapy, I would urge you to seek it out.

Codependancy puts us in a position of caretaker.  I urge you to read/listen to this book.  It was VERY helpful to me.

Stop Caretaking the Borderline (https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details/Margalis_Fjelstad_Stop_Caretaking_the_Borderline_o?id=AQAAAIBLwUNBGM)

Another approach I have used is...

Wife:  "Why can't you do xxxx.  Your an idiot"
Me "It sure seems like I don't know how to do it the way you want.  Do you mind doing it and showing me what I am doing wrong?"

 :)

Oh my.  LOVE your advice, but honestly, I'm not there yet.  I'm having a difficult time with being called names.  Mine used to be "crazy".  He called me that for about three years.  It was one of the reasons he moved into the camper as we had a HUGE blow up over it.  I WILL think about what you said and do agree that I need counseling.  I just don't see it with his control issues.  Not sure he wants me telling anyone anything about how I feel, you know?  Thank you so much for your reply.  It really means a lot to me to just have someone actually "listen" to what is going on behind closed doors.

Try to remember.  You are the one giving his words the power to hurt you.  


This is about you.  Your feelings matter.  He doesn't get to tell you who you get to talk to unless you let him.  I know that is hard to hear.  You are protecting his feelings by not looking out for yourself when he is giving yours what appears to be no consideration.


Come back and tell us what you think of that book.    :)  

I had a further thought.

I know this is a scary journey that you are on the verge of undertaking. 

It helps me to move forward when I get scared about what "might" happen to think about the quote in my signature. 

"Everything you want is on the other side of fear."

Be brave.  You can do it.  You are braver than you think in just facing your situation on a day to day basis.  Now it is time to be brave in a different way.  What do you think about that?

Something else just occurred to me.

There are always online therapists.  The author of that book I recommended actually will work with you over the phone. 

www.margalistherapy.com/


There are also others that will do video call sessions.  Either way, you could start your journey and not leave the house.

Bloodbought, your whole post spoke volumes about your situation and I've highlighted a few quotes above which really stood out to me amongst it all.  I'm so sorry that you find yourself in this position.  You're absolutely right - from what I'm reading here you do need help and I'm so very glad that you've reached out for it.  

Do you have friends or family who are aware of what goes on in your home?  I would encourage you to cast that net wider to enlist further support as well as posting here.  It sounds like that would be a real positive for you as I can only imagine how exhausted, both physically and emotionally, you must be.  What outside interests do you have?  How much contact do you have with your adult children who have moved away?  I'm imagining that they are all too familiar with what you are experiencing.  Have they ever given you their perspective?

Please take a look at the lines I've quoted above.  I think they paint a very concerning picture.  :)o you feel safe right now, Bloodbought?  If you had to summarise the way that you are being treated by your husband in one word, what would it be?  

We are here to listen whenever you can post.  :)o let us know how you are doing at the moment.  If your husband may be monitoring you, please ensure that you browse safely and that you delete any history before you shut down.   

Love and light x  

Hi bloodbought,

Other than the part about the kids (I don't have any) I can relate so much to your pain!  I have struggled with these issues for years, wanting to help someone who is ill, not wanting to suffer from abuse. It is not always easy to parse what is what. I had those feelings too, that he was lucky, he had someone to care for him and I had no one. It is indeed draining.

One of the most important things you need is a support system. One of our senior members always talks about how you need 5 sources of support. I don't have those, sounds like you don't either, but in my book some support is better than none! So, you have support here!

It is okay to be empathetic. I care about my SO's pain and I can see it very clearly, however seeing it and caring about it does not mean I will tolerate abuse in the wake of it. I call it out when I see it, however I have learned that I do not need to have him agree with me that he is abusing me. He will think what he wants, but he does not get to control my feelings about my life or my reality. I hate that I even have to say that, that I am even in such a situation, but the kinds of illnesses our partners have bring us to this.

I am sorry to hear your children are also bearing the brunt of this. What would you like to do regarding them to keep them safe?

Also, on another note, I am deeply impressed with what you do in terms of cooking for your family! Let me give you high praise for this and express appreciation for these skills and the love you bring to your family - especially if you aren't hearing that message. What you are doing in that regard is amazing dear!

warmly, pearl.

Hi blood bought,
  How are you doing?  I hope you come back and let us know. 

Hi WileyCoyote and bloodbought!

Awww. Love to see you checking in WC - you're awesome! Thank you for being so supportive and insightful!

bloodbought, we're thinking of ya! 

warmly, pearl.

Thank you for the encouragement!  Yes, it is a scary journey that I am on but I feel like if I don't do it, then nothing will ever change and I feel hopeless thinking things will stay this way.  I haven't been on the boards for the last couple days, but I will catch up with the reading.  It does help to change my way of thinking.

I wrote the last post without reading page two.  Yes, I do feel both me and my children are physically safe.  We've been married 24 years and he's never hit me that I recall, but I have felt like he was angry enough to do that at times.  He has never hit the children either but they do deal with his temper, of course.  For the last few days, things have gone on semi normally around here except for one outburst.  I do feel that as I learn how to respond to all of this and become more emotionally healthy myself, that things could possibly change for the better.  I need support in the meantime, though, and I just have to make sure that when things are going well that I don't forget self care.  He needed my phone the other day and so I deleted my private email app and didn't know that anyone had posted on this thread until I felt comfortable enough to read my personal email today and find out that I had new posts to read.  I think that I have dealt with so many emotional things from him, that just me trying to do everything perfect is even more exhausting.  And to be honest, it is even tiring thinking of all this when things go well that I feel like I have to do it in spurts.  I do erase my history on both phone and computer but I am concerned about spyware and such.  Honestly, if it comes to that, I am probably going to have to leave as much as I don't feel that is the outcome I am hopeful for.  The control is already squeezing me to all I feel I can handle and I really need this outlet to help me sort through thoughts so I am going to continue doing things how I have been doing them the last couple of weeks.  Thank you all again!

Hi bloodbought,

I had to deal with spyware too. It is very psychologically devastating. I could detect it, eventually, but the [insert curse words here] that invented that stuff would not give me a way to remove it from my computer so I was even more isolated and could not get any help at all at times. I still feel damaged by this even years later.

My SO had a right to truths between us, but not every private thought. Heck, he even thought he was entitled to every thought I'd ever had in my entire life if he wanted to know about it. Truly insidious stuff.

I get it. It is hard in the white phases too, I start to put my guard down, but try to use this time to plan and prepare if you can... .the other phase will come back especially if no conditions have changed to alter that dynamic.

with deep compassion, pearl.

Hi bloodbought,

Thanks for checking in with us and letting us know you feel physically safe.  Sometimes the other emotional and psychological effects of this type of behaviour can even be worse and I know you're really feeling the strain of it.  If you could change one thing right now that would allow you to feel better what would it be?

Let's see if we can help you find and apply the right tools to get you there.

Love and light x

Hi bloodbought,
  Good to hear from you.  
I think a lot of members here can identify with the invasion of privacy.  I actually resigned myself to just reading posts here after signing up with my normal personal email only to be confronted with that info by my wife.

things like:
"how dare I talk about her or us to other people"   ugh

I had not realized until that point that she was reading my email.  Never even occurred to me.  I then set up a completely different email that I only sign into on "incognito mode" in chrome.   And I only visit this site at work or in incognito mode at home or on my phone.  No trace.  Sucks to have to do that, but I deserve to be able to talk to other people.

I also use that alternative email to communicate with my Therapist.

On an almost humorous note:  My wife keeps turning on my phones location tracking/sharing in google maps via my phone.  And I get an email alert and just turn it off within minutes.  It must be driving her nuts.  LOL.  

I'm so sorry to hear about the situation you find yourself in.  Abuse is not just physical.  Name calling is something we're told in childhood to just ignore, but in the context of a long-term relationship it can be devastating.  When I was trying to sort out what in my relationship was abusive and what was unhealthy (in other words, trying to figure out whether to reach out for help), I found this page on the Relationship Spectrum (http://www.thehotline.org/healthy-relationships/relationship-spectrum/) to be tremendously useful.  Can you take a look and tell us which of the things listed there you are experiencing?

WW

Oh, the things we have in common buddy! 

Glad you can keep one step ahead and have access to other humans - that's what I try to do to.

wish me luck!  pearl.

I've had a chance to read the relationship spectrum and see that almost all of the unhealthy and abusive actions apply to my relationship except for physical abuse and sexual abuse.  We no longer have sex at all anymore and that was a form of control in the beginning.  My husband just decided that he didn't like my behavior and wasn't going to have sex at all anymore with me.  This has been five years ago.  It hurts a lot but now I don't want to have sex with him anymore.  At the time, though, I did.  And I am not that old.  I am 52 and feel hurt about the fact that I have resigned myself to a life with no physical intimacy.  These things have been going on so long for us that they seem normal.  My older children are just now at the age where I think they can see that this behavior is definately not normal, but they are involved in this too and are a lot younger than I am.  I need to be able to think through all decisions before I do anything because it affects my children too.  I love him and honestly want to do what is right by him.  I just feel like I'm being suffocated sometimes. 

Hi Bloodborne.  I'm sorry that I missed your post.  I haven't been real active for a week or two.

I wanted to address some things you said that stick out to me and give you something to think about.

1)  You said that this USED to be a form of control.  :)o you think withholding and explicitly saying it is because of your behavior might be controlling?

2)  Have you thought about WHY you have resigned yourself to this and accept it is your normal?

3)  Have you considered that what is happening now might be affecting your kids more than the alternatives?

You said " I love him and honestly want to do what is right by him.  I just feel like I'm being suffocated sometimes."

Does he appear to want to "do right by you?"  The following suffocation comment seems to bring in doubts.

I would encourage you to call the hotline number on that Relationship Spectrum website.  Just to talk.  You are not obligated to DO anything.  But they can help and provide support.  :)omestic violence is not just hitting.

This behavior is not normal.  You need to try to remember that. 

Thanks for the message.  Yes, I have been giving this a lot of thought and do agree that it is not at all normal.  I've been reading the book Stop Walking On Eggshells and that has been helpful somewhat.  I can't post more now but I will try to come and do that soon. 

Hi!   :)

That is good to hear.  You might consider reading "Stop caretaking the borderline narcissist" as well. It has been helpful for me.

Thanks for checking in and please come back and talk more when you can.  

bloodbought,

I'm so sorry we lost track of your thread!  Thanks for sticking with us.  In catching up again, I was struck by how hard you are working helping to support your family with the business, homeschooling, and preparing all meals from scratch.  You must be exhausted!

A couple of things caught my eye in your thread.  Did your husband use "crazy" as your first name for three years?  Was that a daily occurrence?  Also, you said you didn't think he would be OK with you going to counseling.  Of course he wouldn't be.  You getting support is a threat to him.  But working as hard as you are in the face of negativity and controlling behaviors is more than you should have to do without support.  What would you think about going to counseling without his permission?

I don't want to focus entirely on negative things.  You mentioned how much you love him.  What are some of the things that make you feel good?

WW

This is so much easier said than done. My childhood example is that any display of anger or frustration was not allowed so I never know if I'm being overly sensitive to her frustration and anger. It's nearly impossible for her anger not to matter to me. She gets a particular tone of voice that conveys absolute contempt and it cuts me to the core. I don't actually know what a healthy boundary around anger looks like for me. If she's not name calling, threatening, overtly abusing then my tendency is to just accept her frustration and absorb it. Until I can't. Then I explode in anger and it never gets resolved.

I wish there was a script. I try to avoid JADE. So I listen. And I reflect. And I validate the feelings and the valid. And that can go on for a very long time. Is it okay to set a boundary around how much time you spend? Without being totally invalidating?

I guess I keep wanting her approval and agreement about my perspective. I validate hers, when is she going to validate mine?

Arghhh

Thanks for the responses!  I really do appreciate it.  I am slowly feeling more hopeful that things can change at least on my end.  As things change, they get better for my children too, but I can really relate to not knowing when I am being overly sensitive.  Yet, I know that that very concern about being overly sensitive has been used to manipulate me.  I've been told over and over that I am too sensitive and that my feelings don't matter.  I fought this for years and it only grew worse and that is when the name calling began with "crazy".  No, it wasn't my "name", but rather a daily thing I was told.  I knew it wasn't true, but that does affect a person when that is all they hear.  I just feel an urgency to stop this cycle because I can see these same thought patterns in my daughters and it makes me angry because they are being told in many ways that they are simply unimportant.  And yes, I am truly exhausted.  Physically and mentally.  I would love to get counseling but am looking at ways to do it through skype or some other online avenue.  I'm having a difficult time navigating between feelings of compassion and anger.  I need more time to just be so that I can sort through emotions of my own sometimes and I have begun to try to set limits little by little.  I just can't do everything at once that I would like to do as it throws him off and when he feels like he's losing control, the control becomes worse.

Oh, and his anger... .it does matter to me because it's often misplaced, wrong, and hypocritical.  and frequently abusive.  while I am an adult and can learn ways to cope, I watch my children being destroyed inside by his words and I love them as well as I do him.  I get the whole "validating" thing, but I am weary with trying to make everything as good as possible for my children.  My goal truly is to break this cycle.  I do think mental illness does exist and is very real and should be dealt with compassionately.  I am learning and am thankful for you all here.

Just wanted to say - me too!  I am new to the boards here so will defer to those with more knowledge and experience, but wanted to chime in so you knew you weren't alone.

I am sorry you are under such tremendous pressure.  What aspect of your situation would give you the most relief if it could be helped?

As for putting a time limit on validation, absolutely, that is a good idea.  Endless conversation just exhausts you.  Have you tried ending a conversation to take a break, and if so, what was the result?  How long to these conversations typically go when things are tough?

Can you remind us how old your children are?

WW