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It was suggested to me I post my 'proposed' letter to my possible xBDF (well definite x) here for feedback.  You can if you wish view the full tome here  
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325795.0

Upshot is girl pushed me for months to committed relationship, moment I did  cut and ran. BPD perhaps, but definite relationship issues, 35 and hadn't been in a committed real relationship for over ten years so my 'accepting' finally and her going overboard on what that meant (basically planned an entire future for us) could easily have freaked her out.

I jumped down her throat the moment she sat me down the next day to say 'you are a super guy but I don't want a relationship with you' given the hoops I'd had to jump through to ask her just that after being pressured to do so for ever. By jumping down her throat told her how messed up it was what she did, told her i knew she was about this when I met her, told her thanks for opening my heart to dating (I had been not available when we met) and I'm going to go date.

No reply to my surprise e.g. sorry I got terrified and ran I'm still crazy about you but I can't go through with this. Nothing. Which is what led me to research and end up a BPD (Discard).

I eventually sent her a non-blaming nice email about how I felt, wishing her the love and live she deserved, and telling her I'd always remember her for opening my hear to love again

Got back a sort of terse 'thank you for the nice note. hope you've been well' but that could be anything and knowing her she takes a long time to 'process'. At least she replied and again my email could be read as a good bye (it was) and a reiteration of thanks for opening my heart to dating I'm going to go date so perhaps she needed to decipher MY email too.

I did not reply though the door seemed sort of open. That was a month ago. With some distance and learning about the terrible burden that BPD live under in addition to the devastation they cause, it occurred to me in my own anger and pain I struck out before seeing if in fact she just needed support/understanding and in her terror i only made things worse. I don't want to do that as I really cared for her. Not sure i ever 'loved' her as I'd made sure to not open myself up to that until the end but i might have but I damn sure cared for her.

So judge my letter on this; I am not looking for the best way to 'reconnect' I don't know if i even want to. I do want to reach out and do what i should have done that day and provide some caring and support to a woman I cared for and maybe needed my protection not my wrath. I am of course reading the best intentions and character into her and could be way off but if so all a nice letter does is make a monster sneer and who cares about that? If it helps a girl I cared for feel better great, and if it places some seed that she or I may want to cultivate one day even better. No way either of us will know until we both heal I think.

Also I tend to be romantic/expressive so forgive the syrupy nature of it. This was indeed prompted by my re-reading The Little Prince which I do turn to for wisdom every few years. The 'tale of claws' in the passage is a direct reference to a defining conversation we had that started the entire tailspin, and one designed at the time to 'make you see we should be together' which while it didn't immediately backfire ultimately did.

****

okay. with this in mind as your sole motivation... .

the letter is lovely and heartfelt and spells out your piece. i might pull a couple of lines out like the part about her demons. that could make her feel analyzed; ive seen similar letters sent, and how the intent behind them is actually perceived can get pretty unpredictable.

apart from that, if youre not interested in reconnecting, if you have no expectation of a reply, if you want to say your piece and make her feel good about it, it looks fine to me.

Hmm I get the part on her demons but that is sort of the point of the email; that I realized she has many things she was dealing with. She has told me as much, telling me about her (very expensive) therapy and how there are many things about her I need to know.

In any event not even sure I want to send it. Easy to sit her and believe she was hurt by my reply and lack of 'support' but GD I walked through fire to give her everything she needed and owned stuff I didn't necessarily need to along the way. Easy to believe she is home, hurt, hoping I'll 'step up' but we all know that is not the fact and as I type this she is in someone else's arms not even remembering me. That is The Truth not my Poly Anna letter.

You say "if youre not interested in reconnecting, if you have no expectation of a reply," do you mean because you feel this would not result on reconnecting or reply? Am I just ignoring the reality here while I misquote the beauty of Saint-Exupéry to a woman who will never comprehend it?

I'm sitting now at the wine bar we met at, realizing if she wanted to she could show up any minute and find me, she could text me at any hour of the day or email me any day of the week, as she used to. And she has not. And I massage quotes from a childhoold novel pretending it changes reality: I'm alone on a forum she's home making love to the person she choose to which is not me.

Hi 1stTimer,

I thought the letter was lovely. You wanted us to read and analyze it in terms of what to say or not say in it?

I think once removed makes a fair point about not bringing up demons. How the letter could be received is worth considering... .

Ah, love letters, goodbye letters, and all the I don't know if I should send this stuff... .I tell ya... .if you have doubts about how a letter will be received, it is good to sit with those and consider not sending. Sometimes writing to ourselves, writing out what we are thinking, is enough. I think there is danger in sending a letter if there are expectations, so if you like, can we examine your expectations?

What are you hoping she'll say in return? What is a realistic response? Can you live with your heartfelt letter not being received the way you intend it?

with deep compassion, pearl.

Hi Pearl, thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. I was considering taking it down.

I already sent one amazing letter and she not only did not deserve it, it I'd say grossly overstated my feelings for her specifically. I did so because I wanted to move on with the good stuff but also because I was missing the 'future' she corraled and spun just few weeks prior.  This letter is not deserved by anyone but a woman I loved with all my heart. Nothing about her or about how I felt about her deserves this kind of love.  Will it affect her? I am sure. Then what? She has power over me or wants to return and then what? She is either the same immature unfaitful BPD or she is not and I am still left with someone I did not love from the beginning.

yeah part of this is anger but part is the truth. I think in fact I am going to post 'the truth' letter in ':)eparting' and never send it to her because it would crush her.

Expectations if I do/did send? The same unrealistic one every one has with a letter like that "Oh my God what did I lose! Come back!"  Or at very least it gestates with her while she is with her abusive ex. And then one day... .But you know what? "One day" I won't even be available to her, heart, body or soul since I was not in the beginning. I held back for good reasons, my mind and body and soul knew. In fact one day when she took me for a walk in the park after I "ran" when I found stuff out and she told me "I just said those things because I want us to be in a relationship can you please start staying over and holding me in your arms" we could see the buildings on the park and she kept asking me to walk her to where i live and show her and i kept saying no. I treated it as a joke but my instincts were all firing 1000%; do not show this women your home, do not show her your heart. I knew.

So thank you for reading but you know when i re-read I find it quite beautiful myself and since I never held actual love for her and whatever pain she is from my reaction is fully deserved and more so I don't need to give the very best of me to soothe the very worst of her which she harmed ME with. Did I get a single text or email acknowledging what her 'fear' did to me, a word to soothe me, or a heartfelt reply to my first undeserved letter? Has she checked on me?

Right now all she knows is I walked out and left when she pulled her 'you're a great guy but I don't want a committed relationship' after making me crawl through hades and back to give her the committment SHE wanted and I said thanks for opening my heart I'll go date other women with the heart she opened, and even my 'nice note' concluded with thanking her for the gift of moving forward with an open heart. I will not buy in. I am the one who discarded her. Let her mull that over as her ex beats her butt red and demeans her right back into her $500 an hour therapists arms again or when she gets black out drunk with her other ex who body-slams her if she tries to leave before he wants her to.

Last word I'll say is an expert in BPD I talked to said that BPD-Women > Nice Men are particularly difficult for the men because the qualities the BPD is reflecting back at him which she wants are actually his qualities so he has no way of knowing what is happening. And she ends up doing what she always does, pushing away men who don't 'live up' to what she wanted except... .they do. Crazy huh.

Thank you again for letting me work this out here.

Hi again 1stTimer,

I see! Oh yes, sometimes we post and then we notice we have changed. I hope it helped, and keeps helping, for you to get your feelings out about this, among people who are supportive and kind. :)

A lot of us have some pretty tough experiences around breakups- that's for sure!

May I follow up... .you say you did not love her from the beginning... .Do you mean you had doubts, suspicions, felt a need to hold back?

take care, pearl.

Hmm no simply put she was interested I was not. She 'offered herself' to me after a date she pushed hard for and I declined because she wanted a committed relationship and I was not only not ready I did not want her. AND unlike the probably dozens of other men she did this too I did not "take advantage" of her as many of my friends suggested I do. To give you some idea of how hard that was i had not had sexual relations in a long time and this girl, decided to tell me about a sex toy she had just bought and asked me if I wanted to use it on her to which I replied 'perhaps one day'.

I did doubt her sincerity and the depth of her pursuit yes. Some if it was downright creepy. Even early on she'd text 'do you mind showing me where you live?' or 'when you are away maybe I can go introduce myself to your mother, she'd really like me I think". We were not dating or physical or anything then. Yeah I had doubts and suspisions. This is what I told her when I stormed out on her "I knew what you were about from the BEGINNING, I knew this is who you were, this is why I wouldn't date you".

Apart from that I was not particularly physically or emotionally attracted to her. She grew on me as we started to text and share our lives with each other and as it started to appear that her caring for me/my life was genuine and having not had the love/attention/support heck  TEXT of a woman in many many years (see my original post, 10-15 years of serious family/illness/business/finance issues non-stop) I grew attached. And treated her great (supportive, contributed greatly to her significant raise that changed her life, listened to her, etc(, just not the way she wanted; the whole courtship thing and held the relationship at arms length.

In other words, not a classic BPD with the successful love-bomb and the oh-my-God-my-soulmate.

The only reason I do forgive some of this is I did hold the relationship at arms lenght due to where i was in my life (trying to reestablish financial security and remove myself from toxic family situations I'd been stuck in since my father got sick years back) and I believe when I came around she could simply not believe it and put me through the ringer proving it and when she got it over-reacted (turned 'ok seems we are in a real relationship let;s run with it' to 'lets plan our entire futures together' and then freaked herself out. I don't know man :|

I'll tell you one reason I considered the letter; I've had amazing relationships with amazing women. The, as I like to call her, love of my life since 'ex' doesn't do her justice at all, ran from me after our 3rd date just before the Big One (best restaurant in town etc once we'd sort of danced around) by standing me up. I was crushed (in a way this never did, this was as close to love at first site as I ever had). She tracked me down, APOLOGIZED, told me she'd gotten out of an emotionally abusive relationship and was not ready. I said ok. I didn't push(unlike this current girl who just wanted what she wanted). This woman returned 1/2 a year later, she invited me to dinner, she handed me flowers and said "I am so sorry I was not ready for you then. I am now. If you would have me in your life I would love to be there". Goddamn.  When I told this new girl about this all she could say was 'that's crazy women don't buy men flowers'. I in fact spent a few weeks expecting her to remember the story and send flowers. Nada. No text. No flowers. No email. Different women. And when I stop trying to expect her to be 'normal' I'll be ok.

I've spent 60 years learning these hard lessons now. My last PD relationship was worse than the first and now I'm with a normal girl who is kind, honest and caring. She's not personality disordered and it is all very easy. My experience as an old man is that giving the personality disordered anything written won't fix anything and just gives them ammunition to do you with.  It's always a bad mediation without our intended kind intentions coming to fruition. I'm sorry but going to that water well probably won't quench your thirst. Sharing your story with safe people will help you. I might be wrong and perhaps there are successful accounts of mutual healing with us and a PD. I just haven't ever seen it. It's so hard when we're in the middle of it and leaving especially with children but no contact "NC" is, in my opinion, the only solution. If you have children with her then, of course, you must get involved in minimal contact but, seriously, 30 years out from my children's mother and nothing has ever worked with her. She's still vicious and demonizing me with the children. Confrontation letter is something that I've wished for and sent but it never returned anything but more claims of her victimization and my harassment of her. The courts, attorneys, therapists and police will rarely ever it see it. I wouldn't give her anything written. For what it's worth.

Hi thank you for the reply and the benefit of your perspective. Sorry you went through all that, I didn't suffer anything like that and can't imagine. Mine was really a short period of time and I was not terribly (letter to the contrary) super vested in 'her' but never experienced BPD before and having it pulled from under me the moment I committed the way she wanted.

In any event if you read my later replies here I came to the exact conclusion. Mainly because she does not deserve that kind of love nor that kind of caring, nor in fact an apology for something horrendous she pulled which she owes ME one for.

The interesting thing on the Discard/NC thing is for all intents and purposes this got reversed. She sat me down to back out of the committed relationship I'd just made my official gesture for the prior day (running scared) and instead of giving her a chance to explain I stormed out after saying "thanks for opening my heart I'm going to go start dating".  And never contacted her again (other than the one letter which, as nice as it was, basically reiterated that) and have not since. So from her perspective it could be seen as I walked out on her and never looked back too.

1stTimer,

what do you think about tableing this for a bit? the exercise of writing letters is a good one. maybe keep working on what you want to put into words, but hold off on sending anything?

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As you can see in a prior reply I did just that thanks. She does not deserve anything that beautiful for a # of reasons: 1) I never felt that kind of love for her 2) she made no attempt to consider how her actions affected me and left me in the wind.

I suppose I can try to see it from her perspective; tried to tell him I was scared he screamed at me and told me he was going to go date other women and never contacted me again. Which is where the letter comes from. I did not give her a chance to say anything once she did the 'you're a nice guy but'.

If I had really loved her I might send the letter. But I did not and I'm leery enough of who she actually is to put such a message out to her. If she were the ex I referred to from California I would. I see a few alternatives here though none of them I like (I hope it is ok think out loud like this here):

1) She did just <snap> move on and my walking out and disappearing fit her needs entirely. For the last 7 weeks while I spun down the drain she was not even thinking of me making love to someone else(s) and (this is even worse for me) in the apartment and bed that she had painted as 'ours' not just for weeks but that last day. That was going to be a refuge for me when I sorely need one where I could rest my head, find affection and peace and support and solace and sex and love.

2) She was expressing, once again, her fear (as she did on The Date Night) but had not moved on as much as could not move forward. As she said when I started getting upset with her Date Night "just listen, don't talk, I'm just so scared". And I shot her down and hurt her by deciding to go date other women on my own <snap> and never called or texted (except for my nice email which she then replied to) which sort of reinforced her whole "He doesn't really mean it".

In the case of 1 what are the possible outcomes:

1) Why doesn't the loser leave me alone? And possibly an email to that effect. Or... .silence. Sort of so what: I gave some beans to a person who doesn't know what to do with them they'll never fill her soul, and she'll look down on me or think she owns me. Neither of which is true. It's just her damaged mind being damaged, I lose nothing.

2) An apology/explanation that confirms my fears "sorry, it was too late, I've moved on and am happy I hope you are too"

3) She realizes now that she is back with the sadistic ___ how happy she was to be with someone who made her feel safe with kindness and soft words vs brute control. Look man the Day we were together she was soaking up compliments because I think 'he' never gave them to her. She showed me her hands which are admittedly not pretty and said 'please. you can't say one nice thing about my hands" and I said "I can. They are connected to you". Her mouth dropped. And now she is (I'm assuming) back with a person who actively worked to destroy her self-esteem.

4) She lashes out at what a bla bloa bla I am and never contact me again you bla bla bla. See outcome #1

In the case of 2 what are the outcomes:

1) She is too mad/hurt to process and ignores me

2) Ditto but lashes out (bla bla bla)

3) Does not reply but takes solace in the words and then a person who did deserve to hear the words does

4) Processes over a few weeks/months and reaches out. In a few weeks or months I will be past this and her.

5) It makes a big difference to her but she is with someone else, see #4

6) It makes a big difference and she reaches out (the Hollywood Option in other words)

And the funny thing is I can live with most of these. It is the Hollywood Option that is almost the worst. Because if reconciliation is on the horizon and she is not a full on BPD (unfaithful, unable to bond, devaluing, etc) but is just damaged then even though I can possibly handle that I'm then full-circle to where I was before the whole thing spun out of control; I don't see myself with her 'forever'. For months? A year? A beautiful span of weeks where we in fact do do her Saturday Nights and Sunday Afternoons and Pet Names and see what we are like as a couple? Sure. But in my heart of hearts I know she is not the one.

So as I pass (back out of) the anger stage from last night I start to think sending it while on the table should be considered carefully. If I were as damaged as she clearly is, and as used to abuse as she is, maybe this would be an amazing thing to get that she never got before to help her heal? I'll say again; if she has not had committed relationship for ten years and clearly is almost like a little girl understanding  what that means, she must have scared the hell out of herself with the king-sized beds and the where would we move and the meet the family talk since she scared me and I've done it all before.

youve thought things through. good.

it was a pretty lousy things she did 1stTimer, full stop. it was a traumatic one, too. its going to take some time and work to recover.

i know you feel badly about how you reacted when things ended. i think all of us here have our share of regrets.  at a certain point, i think we have to let those things go - not just sweep them under the rug, mind you, since we want to take the lessons to healthier relationships in the future - but at a certain point, neither party is really in a position to soothe the other (help the other heal), and they arent obligated to.

youre in control here, so if there comes a day that you still want to say your piece, youll probably be in a better place to articulate it when that day comes.

what do you think?

Well it is nice to get some validation that she did a ___ty thing. I keep holding on to the stupid White Knight image and I have no reason to. She knew what she was going do to on The Official Date Night when she said we needed to take off the table before we agreed to 'date' that she EVER asked for a relationship when it was ALL she did.

But to me the ___ty thing wasn't freaking out and running; it was never contacting me again. And that sort of tells me that she did not freak out and run. She just found someone/thing better and I stopped existing for her. No way anyone with the feelings she professed or the desire for the future she professed 18 HOURS prior could just disappear.

I go round and round so yeah I'll just let this simmer. I'm almsot tempted in fact to delete the post and the document so I don't send in a moment of weakness. I still regret sending the 'nice email' because it took away my opportunity to just walk out with dignity and have HER wonder.

In any event if I'm honest with myself I'm just trying to stir up emotions and a response as I'm still, to this day, awed that her emotions haven't overwhelmed her enough to do so. Which tells me all I need to know I guess. I can't change reality with a letter.

i think a lot of us do. none of this is easy. its okay. take it, and see it for what it is, and work with it, one step at a time. we are here to walk with you through it every step of the way.

Thanks again once_removed, as replied in the other thread I'm just seeing how this is really connected to the rest of the 15 year debacle and not 'her' so it is much bigger than I'd understood. Speaking of 'understanding' I see the letter to her as ridiculous because ALL I did was understand:

1) I understood she was lonely and had trouble making connections so forgave her ignoring my boundaries about what I could give in a relationship and pouring on the endless pressure. Not just to be 'committed' mind you but to reconsider where I wanted to end up living so I could live with her. Talk about pressure on a person just entering the world again.

2) I understood when she explained why she messed around ("dabbled" with a guy in the apt she gave me keys to in the bedroom she gave me drawers in a week after we had amazing sex AND she said she hadn't had sex in a year. I got the 'you said you didn't want a relationship I'm looking for one'.

3) I understood when she asked me to not run but to be with her and that she told me the very upsetting things she did because she wanted me to get jealous and realize we should be together.

4) I understood when she told me that because of her past that regardless of what was going on with her and a man she HAD to be asked to be in a committed relationship because of her past and because her idiot boss told her to 'wait for him' and led her on. I got it even though I didn't agree with it and though I didn't get on one knee I put aside my objections to what had happened to date and asked formally for her to be my girlfriend (in fact I said "X, will you be my one and only".

5) I understood the next day when she made me meet her for lunch (at which I called 'our place' to which she said "I love the sounds of that" so she could 'confirm a few things' mainly that I HAD asked what I asked and WOULD ask again on the weekend. This so she could tell her whole family. I got that she had not been in a relationship is a long time, how much it meant to her, so agreed again. To what most adults just... .do

6) I even understood after our two days of text exchanges when she told me she was NOT yet my GF until I officially asked why she needed such a 'formal' request (again, the aforementioned horrible past).

7) I understood AT dinner when she tried to back out and/or put up caveats when she finally told me to not respond and to just listen to the fact she was teriffied. I understood, accepted, comforted and made sure we toasted to something that was simple and easy; we agree that we are in a relationship and want to see where it goes.

8) I understood her entire future-bomb the next day and I laid down my arms and let her do it finally and let it wash over me and accepted all of her terms and wishes and desires (Satruday Nights would be 'our' date nights, next Valentine's day I'd ask her to be my Valentine since I had not the prior one, etc)

So why in God's Name would I need to understand her telling me the next day I was a great guy but no thanks she didn't want a committed relationship with me? Why would that me strong or kind? Why would apologizing to HER for not understanding HER when it is and was incumbent upon her to make a grand gesture to ME to if not come back to explain, to soothe, and to not simply disappear like it all never happened.

No sir she does not get that letter. I have a lot of love in me still and maybe one day I'll fight with or lose someone really special again and I'm saving letters like that for her.

Man. What I think is after reading stories like these;

https://www.quora.com/What-is-emotional-amnesia-in-BPD

I am the luckiest man alive she pulled the plug BEFORE we got serious. How terrifying.

For anyone who is still following this debacle :)

Still not sure if I am going to send, however I modified the main paragraph to add a little bit more of my own concerns and to take some of the man/woman aspect out of it so while it is still 'sweet' it backs off from sounding (totally) like a love letter and more of what I'd wanted originally; reaching out in case I lashed out at someone in my own pain and added to their deep issues. The rest of the 'Little Prince' lead in still remains, this is the main letter though. It feels much better to me as it is not a total 'off-the-hook' letter, still acknowledges I had pain and cause, that I'm sending it in only in case this was driven by fear and her past and not malicious on her part and not a romantic-take-me-back.

"I'm not reaching out her for 'reconciliation' as I don't even know if we ever had anything to reconcile or what it meant if we did and some doors or windows don't stay open forever anyway and it has been... .forever. I’m not even writing this as a man to a woman just as a person to a person I cared for at one time.  And I'm writing because, I tried hard to put aside any hurt or anger or possible knee-jerk reactions I had and to let go of my assumptions about what happened during that very confusing maelstrom of a week and came the realization that I may have I let you down when you needed me most and lashed out when what you needed was my strength and understanding. It still would have been very hard given the circumstances of the day and that led do the day but it doesn’t change that may have been the truth. The alternatives are still unpleasant to contemplate so I’ll choose to believe that is the case and I should then have found a way to put my own shock and pain aside and to deal with yours as I realize belatedly that the things you struggle with a lot from your past might be bigger than I could know or understand.  If that is the case then I want you to know that the only truth of you for me that really matters now is that you came into my life like a rose when I needed one the most and cast your radiance over me and perfumed all my planet. I count my birthday night and the night we cooked as two of my most special. I remember some of your texts almost verbatim because they were filled with such understanding and caring and support of me I could hardly breathe after I read them because it was so lacking in my life.  For whatever it may or may not be worth to you now or ever I thought you should know since I clearly was not strong enough in myself at the time to share it when it might have mattered to your life and happiness both of which mattered to me more than I knew. There is no need to acknowledge or reply to this letter and I won't send another. I’m simply writing because I realize with some distance and after reading that passage that you struggle with more "claws" and darkness than I could possibly have imagined, as I realize you tried to tell me many times, and my hope is that sharing with "my rose" what you brought to me I might shine some radiance and perfume your planet as well."

Hey, 1stTimer, welcome! 

These relationships can be real whirlwinds -- I can see from your writing that it's all kind of a swirling mess of confusion. It can be hard to ground yourself to figure out what you want.

Can you try a little exercise for us? Put down in just a single sentence what you want from her (same relationship, changed relationship, no relationship, closure, understanding, don't know, can't decide... .). Then let's think about what you can do to get you to what you want... .or if it's even possible.

Hi flourdust thanks for taking the time.

Single sentence would be hard thus the swirling mess of confusion. I moved very rapidly from keeping it/her at arms distance to full on committed to suddenly drawn into a future in an insane whirlwind, engineered by her. So I can't really do one sentence otherwise I'd have sent or not-sent, I can do this if it helps anyone:

Same Relationship: Well the one we were in was me resisting her relentlessly pushing, me giving up ground. So that one? No, didn't do anyone any good, she was confused and wanted more, I was confused, and clearly she deserved more too.

Changed Relationship: I am 50/50 on whether I'd want to go to the spot we decided to go to; committed relationship to see what we have. I'm not sure if she is capable of committment/fidelity for one thing, for another I' m not sure if it her I want or the relationship she painted which I've been sorely w/o; girlfriend to out on dates with, nights together in bed, sundays lazing about, a woman to talk to and support me in my difficult business since she'll be likely sharing in the rewards, etc. I was open to this finally. The 'we are engaged' one she slammed me on the head with once I "committed" which I think terrified HER into running, no. For me that takes us taking the first step and seeing what we are/have together. Again 50/50.

No Relationship: It is what we have now. And unfortunately colors all my decisions as (if you read my original story) I've been in a very restricted life for 10-15 years with a lot of loss and little to no friends/dating and working alone 80 hours a week via skype. So just not having texts from her is hard. And yeah I mi miss the touching and supportive ones such as "I wonder: maybe you don't need to make this thing HUGE and be a billonaire or famous or even rich; maybe you just need to make a nice normal happy life with it". I mean... damn. THAT is the woman I want by my side and vice-versa. I forgot in my anger afterwards and in keeping her at bay that kind of caring and support.

Closure: No such thing really. Anything she might say "never liked you jerk", "my ex came back", "I got scared and ran", "I'm a mess and a slut" nothing really closes anything.

I won't lie and say that *part* of my motivation is not to get back on her radar as part of my 'agony' is how this girl who seemed to plan her future around me for months can literally disappear the day after she gets it all. Then again I did go off on her. And I think that her ':)iscard' was no such think since she could have just emailed me 'bye' or disappeared and she took the time to come meet me and try to explain. And I laid into her. Again, deserved, but the guy that just said he wanted a committed relationship with you and "be my one and only" told you he always knew you were like this and said I'm going to go start dating. Not a good thing to get yelled at you when you're trying to back out because you got scared.

But 75% of this is really what it sounds like; I think I might have lashed out (she deserved it) at a girl who was already damaged and hurt ("I haven't had a real boyfriend in ten years, my entire family is going to want to meet you" and endless "there are things you need to know about my past" because I was hurt. I mean heck I KNEW she was going to back out I sent myself an email the night before.

So saying that my primary motivation is passing some healing along to a woman I cared about who may be hurt would be fair.

Which leaves my fears on that:

1) She doesn't reply. I won't be crushed in fact, I'll know he got it and is processing. One day she'll reach out or not. I'm pretty sure in 3 months I will be moved past this, I am taking a lot of steps besides just pondering this, I still work 80 hours a week trying to get this business over the hump and am working out 10-12 hours a week getting in the best shape of my life.

2) She lashes out some 'get a life' or 'get over it' or 'never contact me again' or 'loser I never even LIKED you!'. I'm doubting this as the first email I sent (a month ago) she DID reply to "thank you for the nice note. hope you've been well'. Of course she could get ANOTHER one and be like 'jesus GET OVER IT'. I don't suppose those would kill me though, I'll know she still got the message

3) She replies in the same Hallmark Card or Thank the Dogwalker way. Confusing but... .whatever?

4) She wants to meet. THAT I likely would put off for a few weeks if it was requested so I know i'm in a good spot to do so.

5) Not happening but she sends me some reciprocal 'love letter'.

Anyway you see how good I am at one line responses :|

 

Yes... .we have a term around here for this kind of thing ... ."ruminating." It's what happens when you get stuck going down mental rabbit holes with no resolution. Sometimes, it's a helpful step in the coping process, but you don't want to get stuck there!

So, let's try to break the cycle and focus in -- it sounds like you don't quite know what you want (see, that's my single sentence version). What might help you get to a decision?

Ruminating? :|

I have no idea man. Impulsive decision most likely. One issue is that the 'business' I'm trying so hard to push over the top of the hill so I can HAVE a life and options (and which I wonder secretly now if it is one reason she did split) is now having setbacks . So that affects my decision-making ability too. Confirmation Bias I'm a 'loser' and will remain alone. Doesn't help make a decison like this does it?  All I'm asking for is a kick-in-the-teeth when I'm on my knees. AND it reminds me the whole draw of her was FINALLY having a woman to turn to for support, solace, advise. So it all goes round and round.

So you want some companionship? Perfectly normal.

Why not get on a dating site or two and see if you connect with anyone?

I simply do not connect to people like that, never had. And it is not 'companionship' I want. I want someone who understands me, appreciates me, respects me, thinks about me, wants me. Yeah I get we all want that. I've been w/o except for the endless family illness/death/squabbling and excruciating rebuild for the better part of the 21st Century. So you can see why having it ripped out would be painful. AND having resisted making that full connection for months under intense relentless pressure to give it all. And I finally did that night/day. Laid my hands down and accepted the whole package; me and her, a couple, a team, side by side, a future. Resisted it for months because it had been years I'd learned to go it alone and keep my heart closed, opened it up let her connect all the screws and eyehooks she'd been trying to forever and woke up to her ripping them all out accusing me of taking what she didn't want. So companionship and a dating site as much as I appreciate the thought are not going to solve anything. I'm still in limbo until I can get to escape velocity with my business (just how it is as a man and especially in NYC) and I'd somehow found a woman willing to travel with me regardless. I can't help feeling like I blew it.

we all understand. weve been there. we are just trying to help you break this thing down in bite size bits.

as i see it, there are three issues going on. the business is having setbacks as you say. can you give us a better picture of whats going on there? do you have any support or coaching for it?

theres the letter. my advice would be to completely put that away for now. if you are swirling in confusion, its best not to act. you can come back to it. working on it may be working you up, and youre not sure if you want to send one or not anyway.

theres the lack of emotional support, which is hard, but weve got you covered there. do you want to vent? do you want feedback? advice? someone to just listen? all of the above?

I agree on not sending until I have my head on straight. No bad decisions then and no way it can bite me further.

Business? No coaching, it is just me really and some half-baked offshore coders trying to build what a 20 person multimillion dollar funded tech team should (but have not). I've got it 90% there on my own over the better part of a decade just hitting the usual 1 step back but it is tiresome and I'm running out of time and money and the emotional strength to keep doing it. I've lowred my sites so I can just finish it and have... .a life. An apartment/home, a dinner party here or there, a girlfriend, maybe kids. It remains endlessly elusive even with progress, I work on it alone from dawn until dusk (either alone or texting via skype ot people 1/2 around the world who don't give a crap). I go out at night alone to local wine bar and watch people live and no one has the slightest idea what I accomplished (which is a lot and should have been impossible, fueled it on fury and terror) and never will if I succeed. Hard for me to overstate what having a girl/woman interested in it and believe in it and me meant. Hard to overstate what our conversation when we 'agreed' to be a couple about her actively supporting me by discussing/advising meant. Did I take her for granted? I don't know it eats at me.

Advise is always good but I guess it is pretty simple; send or don't send on letter, keep moving or give up on business. all of these options suck. I guess I've just run out of energy emotionally and financially and spiritually. Most of my energy now is in going to the boxing gym and venting there and, for the first time ever, living on hope. Thank you as always for listening.

Right. And how do you get to that... .? It starts with a single step.

It is a single-step that takes a long time to get to through many many dates and then that step is months of learning, connecting and trusting. It is made 1000% harder in the position I am in. So the reality is it is not a reality in my near future. So it still becomes something that is utterly absent from my life.

The point here is I'd be dating for the last umpteen years and likely have a woman beside me now if my entire life didn't fall apart and I didn't lose everything. I have NOT been able to pursue a relationship due to my living and financial situation until I make things work out. This woman/girl did not CARE, she didn't care I lived at home helping my mother, she didn't care I had no money she believed in me, she wanted to be by my side. I pushed her away or at least held her at arms lenght because I could not see being with someone when I had no financial security, my emotions were raw from years of family drama and death and I was living with family in toxic situation. And still she wanted me.

I am thinking I royally f-ed up. Which is why I want to send the letter. Could this be BPD as per my original post? Maybe. It is also a guy who was utterly closed off and lacked confidence in what he could bring to someone who kept a girl at arms length for perhaps too long. Maybe by the dinner she wanted to still want it. Maybe be the time we were 'together' she realized the risk in being with me. I just know that I didn't give her a chance to say anything after telling her I agreed to everything with her and shut her down and walked out to go date other women.

I might be the bad guy here.

Since I've decided to send the letter, as I think this might in fact not be your typical BPD/NC situation, I've re-worked another draft:

It's a very gracious apology and nicely written.

I think if your intent is to apologize, offer closure, and right any wrongs you may have done, then this letter well serves that purpose.

If your goal is to re-open the relationship... .or you aren't sure of your goal ... .then you can find yourself in a worse mess after sending this.

That's all we're saying here. Know yourself before trying to know others.

Thank you for taking the time.

What if my goal is both with the first being primary?

How would this letter put me in a worse mess? Note I'm not looking or hoping for oh-my-god-what-did-I-do. I'm guessing if she has managed to spend 2 months not contacting me she is either a mess over this or moved on. I've just spent the entire time thinking she just moved on immediately and while I've been a mess here she's happily with other person or people. But knowing her past and knowing how she likely reacted she could as easily be hurt somewhere thinking *I* am the one happily moved on since I basically said that is what I was doing when I stormed off; going to date people with the heart she worked so hard to open.

So I guess I'm unclear, even if it is not primary goal and to tell the truth if I really consider it a goal at all (reconciliation and dating) since there were reasons I resisted for so long anyway, why this letter might make it less likely or 'a mess'?

Note too I modified the letter a bit to introduce some of my hurt as well since even though I am 'graciously' offering an apology in all honesty the person who would under ordinary circumstances be apologizing would be her since what she did (if you read the original story) was super messed up and hurtful and she should know it. I'm trying to put that entirely aside and understand her pain. It ain't easy.

BTW; the only bad outcome from this is some nasty email or text (never contact me, get over it, etc). No reply won't kill me I'll know she got it and will process it as she always does. I'm thinking her reply to my email of a month ago ("thanks for the nice note. hope you've been well" is at least some indication that it means something to her and the door was open to reply/communucation as otherwise she could have gone silent.

Where to start... . :)

I want to help. This will be a bit difficult to hear. Know that I say it with a open and caring heart.

The downside of this letter is that it will most likely feel like "more of the same" that caused her to pull back to begin with. It will almost certainly make matters worse. Not because she is BPD (anyone would feel this way), but because it's more about understanding your feelings than understanding her feelings.

Think of it his way:

The letter you want to receive from her is "I'm sorry I did that to you. I wasn't being fair to you".

Most likely, the letter she wants to receive from you is "I'm sorry I did that to you. I wasn't being fair to you".

This letter is not the latter.

To explain... .

Apologies need to clear and affirmative. "I'm sorry I did ____ to you (accurately filling in the blank is very important). I wasn't being fair to you".  This type of statement is not that... .

"I'm not reaching out her[e] for 'reconciliation' as I don't even know if we had anything to reconcile or what it meant if we did and some doors or windows don't stay open forever anyway and it has been... .forever. I'm writing because, while I don't really know anything about what happened at "the end" I think it may just be possible I let you down... .

Yes. Correct. That's what she wanted/wants. The overall tone of the letter does not suggest that you "understand, appreciate, respect, think about, or want her". Just the opposite. And the 30 day lag makes it even less so... .

The letter will sound to her (any second party), in many way, like "what matters most to you is your feelings". References to your favorite childhood book punctuate that further... .

If that is so, I don't know if you wonder or care what I think about you or if I cared about you but I want you to know that the only truth of you for me that really matters now is that you came into my life like a rose when I needed one the most and cast your radiance over me and perfumed all my planet. I

All in all, this is really a very good and heartfelt note to yourself. It has value. You are reflecting on what you feel and part of that is a disappointment in not knowing how to handle this better at the time. This is great self-awareness.

Your letter also show you that you are very worried about her reaction, so you have loaded it with insecurity and tentativeness with phrases like "for whatever it may or may not be worth to you now or ever". Imagine this in a hallmark card... .

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/bad-birthday-card.png)

I don't know too much about her, but is the issue here that her heart was invalidated day in and day out (unrequited love hurts - far more when you have BPD traits) and she grew numb and resentful. Then one day, when you came on very strong, all she could feel was the resentment. And your reaction was to tell her that she treats you bad and you're done.  Am I on track here at all? What do you think?

Empathy is most likley the thing you want to achieve... .check out this short video
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

Maybe the place to start is to share the first letter with members and her response to it. Let's get everything in perspective and context.   :)

The worse mess comes from not getting a response you envision, leading to further rumination and difficulty in detaching. We've seen it often here -- members obsessing over no contact from their ex, or cryptic and unsatisfying contact.

 C<||| Skip

Hi thank you for the honest input.

First of all I think you read the first draft, not the last (which was in the post you replied to wherein I took that out).

I do get what you are saying, yet I also think telling someone what they meant to you means a lot. If I got a letter from her telling her how much my support and caring meant to her after her abuse etc I'd feel good not invalidated. If she told me how she had learned to not trust and when I did ABC it made her feel loved then it would mean something to me. If she included things like understanding where I'd been in the last few years and why it was so hard for me to open up ditto. I want to know how I affected someone in relation to who they are and their life.

I also do not think her heart was 'invalidated' day in and day out. I was very giving to the degree I could be and a very supportive friend AND lover. Having someone you tell that you are just re-entering the world and not fully available until you get your feet under you so you can be there fully for somoene else constantly push you into acting as if you are almost engaged (we need to discuss whether you should be moving to California, maybe consider staying her and buying a place for us here) is 'invalidating'.

I am not sure how much of the original post you read

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325795.0

but my letter is a very tiny window of it where I apologize for something that was pretty horrible she did. I didn't come on strong 'all of a sudden'. I started opening up more and more as she pushed for more and more (read in the original e.g. givng me her keys, emptying drawers) and pulling me in. She didn't push me away as she got numb at every chance she had to do so she asked me explicitly to come in closer and have a relationship with her. She did some messed up things to get my attention and told me she did for that specific reason.

If you read just about the week leading up to the 'she treats me bad and I'm done' she told me she needed me to ask for and say I wanted a committed relationship and I did, without hesitation and she was thrilled. She made me meet her for lunch the next day to confirm (after seeing her therapist) that I HAD asked, that I meant it, and I would officially ask on our First Date Dinner on the weekend AND told me how much everyone was going to want to meet me she had not had a real boyfriend in ten years red flag red flag. She then made it clear to me she was NOT m girifrlend until I officially asked over dinner which I had, and we ended up having a conversatoin about that as it made me uncomfortable as I said do not ask em to ask if it is not in your heart becuase the words and committment mean something to me. She said they do to me too which is why I need you to officially ask me. So I did the whole Official Date and Official Ask. I jumped over each of the hoops and each time opened up parts of my self that were VERY hard to as she well knew.

We spend the night at her place as official BoyFriend-GirlFriend and she utterly future bombed me; how she was going to buy a king sized bed so we could sleep in comfort together, how the place was too small for us and where would we move when we were ready to live together, how I had to meet her whole family, brought out the family album to show me everyone AND the video of her grandparents renewal vows, what day of the week should be our official date night, how we needed to talk about finances, did I see myself as provider and protector even though she wanted to keep her job for at least a few years until she had kids, what our pet names should be, showed me Five Languages of Love and asked me to read it for 'us'.

That is not "numb" or "resentful". That is taking what was meant to be a 'yes I like you and want to be in a real committed relationship with you let's see what we have' to an engagement. I for the first time did not resist all of that and let my guard down and opened up for the first time in well over a decade to having a relatioship, a person to be with and share with and open up to fully. I bought into the Saturday night dates and the sundays in bed (the Sunday we spend was the first time since maybe 2008 I have not gotten up at 6 and gone to do my work at starbucks but laid in bed with a woman who cared about me and until noon no less). It was a HUGE day for me and a huge amount of myself to give because she really asked me to put it ALL on the table that day.

So the day i refer to in my letter is simply the very next day, 18 hours later, when she sat me down and said 'you are a great guy I'm just not into a committed relationship with you'.  Not only was she ripping out every cord she'd attached to me from my body the day after I accepted them all she was making me feel as if I had 'misunderstood'. She said as much when she said "I didn't do anything we just see things differently'. After months and months of pushing me past my comfort level, after walks in the park expaingin her behavior as being because she wanted a relatoinship with me so much, after making me prove my self the week before in some insane gauntlet to let down my guard and offer her up my soul.  I'd say I reacted better tham most people or men would have. It doesn't change that in retrospect it may have been harsh and if I were a SAINT I'd have taken her hands ands said 'baby what is wrong'. It felt like and still partially feels like she intentionally had me present all of myself to her just so she could smash it in some insane bit of revenge.

So I'd say "grew numb and resentful, then one day, when you came on very strong, all she could feel was resentment... .And your reaction was to tell her that she treats you bad and you're done." is in fact not on track. I dealt with the 'treat me bad' before this like a champ (when she slept with someone and said some really creepy things about fidelity), I understood and took ownership of my role in all this, I put aside how I felt about the inanity of having to ask someone you are in a relationship with to be in one and then to confirm it and then to officialy ask it as if it is a prom or a wedding and did all that because she needed it and because I got that my own behavior contributed to it. What she did that day was horrific, BPD or not, scared or not. And I was not about to buy into the narrative that I was some 'great guy' who 'misunderstood'.

I can find the letter I sent, it was sent three weeks later after I was in shcok to no have heard some 'baby I am so sorry I got scared and could not go through with it' or something like that since THAT was the apology that was needed from that day. My reaction was understandable even if I feel bad about it and my letter really casts this day in a single view point independent of the history or actuality.

My letter said something to the effect of (paraphrasing): "I'm not sure what happened, all I know is I'm amazed at how much I miss you. I forgot how my heart would soar when I'd see your name on my phone. I'm sorry I was not in a place in my life to accept the love you offered. Maybe in some other universe we met where our hearts were both open and we have something beautiful. I hope you find the live and love you deserve, and I'll always remember you and the fact that you opened my closed heart, it is a gift I will always cherish and I hope I brought something as valuable into your life".

I got reply in two days "Hi. Thank you for the nice note. hope you've been well. T'. Blew me away. The fact she was able to not text or email or call me for three weeks blew me away, she had just been planning our entire future.

I did in fact re-read TLP and that passage did remind me of her. I think perhaps reading it out of context or with limited background you could say what you did and that my "reaction was to tell her that she treats you bad and you're done." However the truth is she relentlessly and aggressively had me open up and commit every part of myself to her, she made damn sure that Official Dinner/Hurdle happened and she made sure when we were finally 'together' I put every other chip I had on the table and laid out an entire future she'd know meant the world to me and then took it all away the next day.

I'm trying very hard with my letter to just let all. of. that. go. and understand her in a way she has not given me an iota back on. She knew about my 15 years of pain and loss and solitude and she knew how hard it was for me to share and she knew how hard I was workng to build a foundation where I could be with someone fully. She could have NOT asked for those things if she knew she was going to throw them right back. When I said before the dinner 'do not ask me to ask you if you are not ready or it is not in your heart becaues words dont matter what is in your heart does' she could have done that and not said 'no I am committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me officially tomorrow night' since she'd have to know. I'm not just some guy that asked her to date me she said no to. I'm some guy who is in my own way as damaged and hurt as she is from my recent past whose feeling she could have been as mindful of and she could have taken the last two months to have her own epiphany with her own childhood book about holy god I hurt him terribly.

So whilst I do appreciate the input greatly, I think telling her what she meant to me and my life is the only thing I can say. I can't speak to her past issue as she didn't tell me what they were ("there is a lot you need to know about me".

I'm truly ok with no reply. It is what I have now. As per the original post I made about this, she is not 'the love of my life' but she is a woman who became very important to me and clearly more important than I'd realized. I have been closed off for years. In any event, taking into account what you said I modified the meat of the letter. Still keeping The Little Prince into in but this is the core of it now, not sure if addresses anything said or not:

I’m just reaching out as a person to a person I really cared for because this passage made me think about how I’ve acted and how I might have hurt you without ever meaning to. It has taken me some time to process and get here I am sorry, you were not forgotten.  I’ve tried hard to put aside any hurt or anger about what happened during that very confusing maelstrom of a week and day and came to the realization that I may have I let you down when you were scared and needed me most and lashed out when what you needed was my strength and understanding. I’ll choose to believe that is the case, that the things that were said between us were real and true and that I should then have found a way that day to put my own pain and shock aside as I realize belatedly that the things you struggle with from your past might be bigger than I could know or understand. In my defense, I am sure you know I struggle with sharing myself and that day felt like after every part of it was asked for and given freely it was immediately stomped upon so I reacted from shock and pain. I am truly sorry for thinking the worst and any hurtful words when you needed just the opposite. It is one of the true regrets of my life.

I want you to that you came into my life like a rose when I needed one the most and cast your radiance over me and perfumed all my planet. I count my birthday night and the night we cooked as two of my most special and your affection moved me both nights. I remember some of your texts almost verbatim because they were filled with such understanding and caring and support of me I could hardly breathe after I read them because it was so lacking in my life. The vision you painted that day of us in your apartment that last day was beautiful to me when I finally laid my arms down to accept it. I should have known that woman would never want to hurt me.  For whatever it may worth to you I thought you should know all that since I clearly was not strong enough in myself at the time to share it when it might have mattered to your life and happiness both of which mattered to me more than I knew.

I know you wanted and needed more than just kindness and support in return and I was trying to open my heart up to that piece by piece. When I asked you to be ‘my one and only’ I meant I was ready to give you all of who I was and all of what you needed and deserved from me. I’m sorry I never got to give that to you. For me partially but I believe I could have brought real happiness into your life and was fully prepared and wanted to make that that most important thing in my life. I’m not sure if you didn’t believe that and is so that is my fault. I’m not sure if you didn’t want that anymore and if so that is probably my fault as well. I did not mean to let you down in either regard.

There is no need to acknowledge or reply to this letter and I won't send another or reach out again. I’m simply writing because I realize with some distance and after reading that passage that you struggle with more than I imagined, as I realize you tried to tell me many times, and since I could not provide my full love and strength when you needed it my hope is that by sharing with my rose what she brought to my planet I might shine some radiance and perfume on hers as well.

On this: most of MY issues with HER were just that; she wanted what she wanted without caring where I was. I told her for instance one of the issues in my past as the love of my life left me when I lost my business/money yet she'd asked me things like (before we were even physical) 'when you make your business rich will you buy us a place to live in NY?'. When I told her I'd been working for 10+ years to rebuild my life while taking care of father/mother and wasn't sure I'd be ready to just jump into a relationship when I was secure (this is before we were datng/physical) she said I had a "Peter Pan" complex. I already mentioned the pressure for me to drop my plans to move to California for a fresh start away from all the bad memories so that I could stay here with here. It didn't even feel like I existed. I won't even go into sex since that became an issue as it was all about her.

So there is no 'more of the same that caused her to pull back'. When she'd pull back would be when I'd call her on her stuff and point out that I existed too. I had to point out to her that our Big Date Night was about us becoming a couple and that 'us' and 'couple' meant me not just her and that it was not just her that needed reassurance.

All she didn't get was to get the commitment and girlfriend 'treatment' she wanted from the start as fast a she wanted. And if anything she said is true about her ex's I treated her better in every way than any man she has ever been with. So I'd say that 'more of the same' is not part of what was wrong, though it might be in the original letter.

You did before First Date Dinner, at First Date Dinner, and in a letter after she broke up.

I would assume that she heard you. We often think we are not heard. You were heard.  :)


If you can't speak to her feelings, you won't connect with her, 1stTimer. That's relationship 101... .and really important in a post relationship letter.

Look at this member who posted earlier today. He is on the same trajectory... .


The abandoned male focuses on his feelings (loss). The abandoning female focused on hers (resentment). His comments only made her more resentful and polarized the situation more. She then blocked him.

Why did she block him?  Because she feels he doesn't get it. She feels that he is asking her to share in his sadness and is too self-centered and uncaring to realize how violated she feels.

This is, more or less, what you are about to do. We see this transaction on this site thousands of times.

Do you see the similarity to your situation?

Would you send the letter knowing that it has a 85% chance of polarizing the situation more... .

No clearly I would not. Do you feel however the modified one does the same thing? I mean look at a certain point I can't just fall on my sword totally here. She did some inanlely messed up stuff to me she wont' even look at. There is an excellent change she just ran off with her ex which would explain her ability to just disappear from a guy she planned a life around a month ago. I tried to address her issues in the new draft, clearly though I'm trying to balance not coming at this from mea culpa since in all honestly I think I handled this really well from beginning to end and tried my best to understand where she was coming from and give her what she asked for and needed in fact bent over backwards. So I can't just write a letter that says I know you need A and I let you down and I know you needed B and I apologize for not doing it. That isn't even what happened. again I'm trying to be VERY understanding about a situation I'm on the fence bout whether I need to be understanding at all. Most of my family and friend would slap me into tomorrow if they knew I concated her.

My mother hated her from almost the first time I mentioned her and said "I have a bad feeling about her, don't ever tell me about her if you date her it will be a travesty". In fact one thng that pissed said girl off: at some point well before we started anything when she was stil heavily pursuing, she mentioned she was trying to get a raise and needed to write a proposal. I took a couple DAYS talking to her about the issues, did a ton of research, and presented a whole game plan. She wrote a not such good letter based on that so I wrote the damn thing for her. I followed up for weeks and she ended up getting a 50% raise enough so so she could move from her unsafe crappy studio into a new lux apartment in (my) safe neighborhood. She brought me a $20 bottle of wine (to my wine bar where I then spent $60 on wine for us). My mother was livid. She said 'you just changed her life, you're not her husband or boyfriend, and you took time from your eighty hour week to write her proposal for her that is going to out 1/4 million dollars in her pocket in the next few years. That does not speak well for her'. And it did sort of summarize the 'relationshop'; it was based on what she wanted and needed.

And you mean it did not matter? I did the first two times because she ASKED me to ASK her and to tell her. I might have been heard I don't think I was believed. Did you have any feelings on the first letter at least or did you find that 'all about me' too? She replied at elast...


Ok so this is the best I can do and the most I'm willing to 'connect with her'. I've really I believe bent over backwards going back to April to understand her needs and fears, I've been pretty totalled in the process and that is not (all) on me. If you have the time or inclination please do let me know if the below is more in line with what you mean, I am in fact hearing you:

In reading your prior posts trying to read between the lines and get a feel for what was going on with the two of you - rightly or wrongly - you two were not on the same page. She wanted romantic intensity and future building from you and you were working long hours and going at a very different pace.

It sounded like the dynamic got to the point where she was pushing you to do more (and you were slowly coming up to that) and at the same time, you were pushing her to expect less (and she was accepting and rethinking based on that). She was likely getting some "are you sure about this" from her confidants.

This doesn't sound like a simple problem, there are some very significant value conflicts here. It sounds like you both whacked each other pretty hard at times with planks with nails in them. She pushed hard. You did two, in a different way.

You have huge resentments. I read it in your posts and responses. You are very in touch with it, can only partially put it aside. Your responses and draft letters are very conflicted. I sited one example earlier, and here is another "there is no need to acknowledge or reply to this letter and I won't send another or reach out again". How will someone who feels you didn't appreciate their feelings react to a statement line this. It can easily be received as "I want to be heard, my feelings are all that matter here, don't bother me with yours".  I know this is not your intent, you are saying this to protect yourself emotionally, obviously, but this type of protection doesn't work well... .its another sign of being shut down. We have members all the time break long periods of silence by writing a notes that says "I'm going no contact, don't contact me".  

I suspect she has huge resentments too, as I said earlier. I don't think you are in touch with that at all. If she has BPD traits (highly sensitive) or if not, I think you were a lot more invalidating than you know (this is a problem in many mother daughter relationships, too). Remember, invalidation is measured on the other persons meter. I really encourage you to look at the empathy video.  And watch this one too: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating  It will help in your discussions here.  It will really help 1T.

I don't think you can make much progress with a long email... .if anything, if you want to reconnect and open the door, you don't want to overwhelm, and you will need to let her feel she is being heard (empathy).

Deep down, is this really about hoping she will reconnect back and apologize and go back to appearing to want you more than you want her? Hard question, but think about that. It feels that way.

You said earlier that ou can likely get her to respond to a short text... .maybe you should think in terms of some light probe (see if she is still talking) as a first step. Ease into this a bit.

I agree she was pushing for more, I was not pushing for less. I stopped pushing back and started... .accepting. Not sure if you saw the part where after she did her whole 'mark my words by the end of April you will ask me to be your girlfriend" and when I thought about it realized she was right and asked her to meet me at the bar to ask her just that. She was clearly in her campaign mode so I didn't get to ask and she launched into her whole really disturbing other guy she slept with, other guy she was going on a date with, how she didn't want to because she knew she'd cheat on him but would never cheat on me and later on how she said all this to make me jealous. I was spun out of control so did not ask. I think our timing was atrocious as I came around just as she decided to go the nuclear option and force my hand (in the most wrong-headed way possible)

I do get this:

"there is no need to acknowledge or reply to this letter and I won't send another or reach out again"."

Yes it is protecting myself I don't want her to think I'm saying this to get her back or will keep writing her. I can remove it. I do believe the rest of the letter (not sure if you read the last with the "I know you wanted and needed more than just kindness and support in" but other than the line you allude to I tried to make that completely about her. What am I missing here? What about it is not letting her know she is being heard. I've acknowledged I jumped down her throat when what she needed was me to listen. I've acknowledged she needed more than just 'friendship' and needed me to make her happiness as 'my lady' important. I've acknowledged if she did not feel that from me it is my fault and if she did not want that anymore ditto. I am unclear what else I can say to make her feel 'heard'.

Yep I have huge resentments. From being pushed when I was not ready yes, but mostly from then giving all those things freely and completely and jumping all the hurdles to boot only to have it kicked back at me and asked to pretend I never heard or experienced what I did. I tried to remove all of that from my reply. It doesn't change that I feel I should have gotten an "I'm sorry" from her and way sooner than now. I was at least up front from the beginning. I did not 'take advantage' of her when I could have because I took into account where she was and what she wanted and it was not right to take it it I was not ready to give it back. She never did any such thing. I simply came along as fast as I could as HONESTLY as I could. She on the other hand asked for what she needed, despite what I needed and when I gave her what she needed shoved it back at me. Yep, I have resentments.


I don't want to go back at ALL to her wanting me more than I want her. What I wanted was to be at a place where I put my hands down and got reciprocate the wanting and the affection and the attention. I wanted this which I said in my latest:

"When I asked you to be ‘my one and only’ I truly meant I was ready to give you all of who I was as a man and all of what you needed and deserved from me as a woman. It is why I started addressing you as M’Lady since I felt you were... My Lady. I’m sorry I never got to give that to you or treat you as such. For me partially but I believe I could have brought real happiness into your life and wanted to make that that most important thing in my life. "

The whole point of my asking and even acquiescing to the Official Date was not to propose to her but exactly what I said that night; to stop pretending we were not in a committed relationship and commit to it fully, reciprocally, an for me to feel comfortable to open up and give her a full on committed romantic relationship, man to woman. I'm not looking for a sycophant. I'd love her to be nuts about me again but only with me being nuts about her. My last relationship was a beautiful one precisely because our hands were down and we both loved making the other one happy and feeling loved. *I* have loved like this and can. If her stories are any indication she has not (no relationship in 10 years, I'm going to say ever since her marriage was a sham) and she seems to have a string of controlling abusive men in her past. So it seems as if you are implying I want to return to the Golden Days of when she was nuts about me and I got to keep her at arms length. And the answer is I really HATED that for a number of reasons and am not trying to somehow stimulate or simulate that. I want what she painted that last night. I want the king size bed and the saturdays exploring the city, I want to be her man and treat her as my lady, I wanted to open up and show her my full romantic/masculine/loving/supportive self, I wanted her by my side supporting my business and I wanted to share it with her.

Should I post my latest? I think it is about as close to what you described as possible, if not I'm totally missing the boat.

Man I don't know if she'd reply to a text. That is dangerous territory and not sure how it opens the door to say more. I'd much prefer to send the whole enchilada and let her chew on it. If she wants to reply now or one day or never that is fine but some 'Hi' thing sounds like a losing gambit to me.  I don't know how I can be more empathetic than this, if not I guess I don't get it. I even made sure that I framed the part about what she meant to my life back into how I should have known that that person would not have hurt me and she deserved more from me because of it.

I did read that page in fact earlier, some good insights on how to reframe feedback to be sure. I've also read some of the Nicola Method techiques for dealing with high conflict people.

I tried to in my own way not invalidate here. Perhaps sometimes i did e.g. when she'd tell me how her mother or sister said I had to start courting her, which seemed pretty ridiculous to say to a person you are trying to woo in the first place.

But other times I think I was very "validating", perhaps not in phraseology but in intent. The MOMENT we agreed to 'be a couple' she showed me "5 Languages of Love" and how we should each tell each other what are priorities are. Again a girl who has had no experience in relationships. I said look the whole joy in a relationship is figuring out and learning who someone is and what makes them happy and vice-versa; I promise if you ever feel I haven't noticed what you need you can tell me and I will work on it. But I don't want to learn you from a book. Maybe not the best way to say it but the best way to say I get you but get me too.

Perhaps.  *)


You have to read these things - they are significant. Women love to be courted and put on a pedestal. She was asking you to court her more.  Giving you her key meant she wanted yours... .etc.  It sounds like she was trying in many was to lead by example to get you to engage more.


You have to read into these things!  :)  She was trying to connect, 1T.  You said you were in a withdrawn state when she met you. This book is plastered all over the women's magazines as a great relationship book.

Stop 5 girls on the street, 40+ years old, and ask what their love language is. You'll get an instant answer.


There is irony here.   :)  I hope its a  :thought: moment.

I'm not taking her side or saying she was right... .I am trying to paint the world with the paintbrush she is using. While you may think the comment about courting or the a selfhelp book is non-sense, these things were meaningful for her.

Well at least you've decided me. No way on this planet does she get an email or letter from me APOLOGIZING to her. Or anything.

Allow me to address your points:

Got it. She was asking me to court her more. We were not dating then. I didn't want to date. I wasn't ready to date. She wanted ME. She didn't care that I was not ready to date, had no money to date, had no time to date, had no emotions to spare between taking care of my mother (I was a 'mama's boy' by the way for putting my mother's health before her when we hadn't even kissed or date) and dealing with intense family issues. Let me tell you when the 'courting more' conversation started: We were in her new apartment for the first time, the one she'd had likely from my hours of helping research, draft and write a raise proposal which ended up changing her life with a 50% raise.  We were sitting there after I spent an hour talking to her about a very sensitive issue with her boss and therapist she was terrified to tell me about and was in tears at how I was non-judgmental and very helpful and supportive in helping her to address, and a day or so after our first physical encounter where I spent upwards of 4 hours pleasing her w/o an ounce of reciprocation. I'm the guy btw who declined he sexual advances for a year when she said she wanted a committed relationship because it was wrong. If her mother's take on all that is I needed to start GIVING her and BUYING her stuff something is dead wrong. That isn't 'loving by example' it is taking. As her father or brother or sister or mother I'd say 'you have a keeper treat him like gold' not 'how come he isn't buying you things'.

Showing me 5 Languages isn't 'leading by example' it is fitting me into her cookie cutter cut out silhouette near her picture. This is what I want a man to do (give me things) and this is how I want a man to love (in this order). That isn't loving or leading. If she wanted to love by example she cold have noticed MY language order and showed me she saw who I was and needed. She IGNORED what I needed from day 1. she didn't care about any limits I set, she didn't care about what I needed or what I could give, she cared about what she wanted and rolled over any need I had. She didn't take the time to make herself into someone I wanted to court, she didn't respect my needs or wants. She didn't care that I desparately wanted to move to California to put the horrors of the last decade behind me, she only cared that I agree to stay in NY where I was miserable AND buy a place with her because she wanted to be here. That isn't leading or loving by example. She wanted what she wanted; the relationship when she wanted the way she wanted, the sex she wanted the way she wanted, the things she wanted and for me to refer to 5 Languages, Sex in the City and Fifty Shades of Grey to be the cookie-cutter man her adolescent never-had-a-relationship arrested development mind wanted. I did not EXIST. On the other hand I loved by example and to the degree I could. I did not take advantage of her when I could have and respected I should not take from her when I could not give to her what she wanted, a respect she never returned in the slightest. Asking me to court her when she knew how uncomfortbale I was about being in relationship because I could not afford to treat a woman the way I'd like or support her was not leading or loving by example. Asking me to officially ask her to be mine when she knew she did not want to be but did want me to ask was not loving by example. Painting a picture of a life with me she knew she didn't want just to get me to buy into it wasn't loving by example. I know how to love, I've had relationships with fabulous women who I've made very very happy because I know how and they loved and respected me in return. I can go find once I get my stuff together here (which I made clear I need to do before I can give a woman myself fully and have the emotional and financial and spiritual things to give) any woman in the city who wants to be 'courted' and 'put on a pedestal' and give me her own ordered list of the 5 Languages of love and figure out which guy from Sex in the City I'm most like and cater to her sexual whims. That isn't leading or loving.

I GET they were meaningful to her. They didn't take me into account in the slightest and I don't see irony in my rejecting them for that very reason. She didn't take account of me in the slightest and most assuredly not at the end. And that leads me to this; there is only one person who deserves an apology. Abject, on their knees, oh my god I get what I did to you apology and it is decidedly not her. That letter gets burned and I'll save all the parts of me in that that are good for a woman who deserves it and deserves me.

THAT said I do appreciate your insights in how to communicate with someone when I'm trying to show them I get them in a way that shows I get them. I'll use that moving forward with women who deserve it.

It's a good thing to determine what you want in the future and by what core values you'll hold to in the future.  My T pointed out what I already knew: my ex and I weren't a good match.  Buying her a $40k SUV in 2013 was what she wanted to feel valued but it wasn't enough and she started cheating on me a month later.  There were many things leading up to this, however,  on both sides.  "Things" weren't really the core issue there.  I experienced similar things,  had to do x, y and z as she defined or i didn't care about her enough. Some couples work well in what I view as lopsided relationships.  Turned out I didn't (don't) even if for whatever reason at the time I thought I could.

I'm very good at not 'do x y an z'. One of my early conversations with this 'pwBPD' was when she (in her quest to date me) texted me "You can buy me a glass of wine Friday if you want" to which I texted "I'm busy but you can buy me a glass of wine Saturday if you want". A month later I bumped into her and she said "I don't buy men drinks or anything". I asked her to explain and she said "Men buy drinks and dinners and walk women home and eventually support them with a home and income". I said "Really. And what do you do?" She said "I talk to them and help make them into better men". I said "Really. I have an alternate offer: how about you pay for my dinners and drinks and home and walk me home and protect my life with yours and I'll talk to you and make you into a better woman?" She said "That is crazy" and I said ":)amn straight". I also told her "By the way: I'm a better man than you could be or imagine, I don't need you to make me better". I love 'courting' women and love protecting the, the ones who make you want to do so by the way they act and treat you and acknowledge how you treat them and make them feel. It isn't chivalry that is dead it is grace.

BTW in reply to the whole implication of the reply; I am very clear on how to notice what women want and need and respond to feel loved and appreciated and beautiful. I know how to court and when to court and who to court. I know how to make a woman feel loved without a book or a cheat-sheet from 5 L of L. I've in fact learned to not notice my male friend's wives or gf's haircuts as I get dirty looks from hell from their husbands who didn't, I've learned to not say 'Over easy with white toast' when a guy asks his significant other how she likes her eggs (again). I notice these things. I don't need to learn.

Perhaps you didn't notice that this girl was trying to force me early on into a relationship she wanted, ignoring my clear communications I did not want a relationship (didn't mention with her) and that I was in no place for one and kept trying to force me or guilt me with what her mom/sis thought I should do for her because she liked me or because I had the audacity to 'get physical' with her once resulting in about 20 orgasms for her and none for me (I believe in fact I remained dressed the entire time). Not that I'm *counting* but damn don't tell me I owe you a dinner to boot. Don't show me a book to bone up on on your 5 'languages' are when we are finally 'a couple' when you ignored every language I needed or wanted getting there.

And that is all I was doing, 1T  :)


At the core of all of this, you have to decide if you want to take this on.

Not in any way, shape or form. I didn't want to take it on when I met her (thus my "I KNEW what you were about when I met you it is why I would not DATE you!" on my way out) nor during most of the time we communicated. It was only for a short period of time I started to believe there was something there and only for a 10 day period I bought in mostly due to some insane toxic whirlpool she whipped up and I stepped into. Other than the fact there was a connection and I had my eyes open to the possibility of having a real connection again in my life after a decade-plus there was nothing about her or between us that would make me want to try to take this on. There was a woman I lost years back I'd take this on and more and ride it out to the end but I loved everything about her (she was not BPD).