BPDFamily.com

It’s gonna take me awhile to get this all out and I am not sure I can even handle what might get thrown at me around these parts, but…um... here goes…

Short version: My relationship with my partner with BPD traits (or possibly depression/PTSD/who knows what else…) has sadly not been a healthy one…but when we started 7.5 years ago I decided it would be my last one. I think that it is possible, to find and be in a healthy relationship, but I am simply a bit burnt out on relationships and prefer to focus on other areas of my life once this relationship ends someday…It’s been off and on for years…he’s turned it off and on like a light switch. At some point I found comfort elsewhere, after a lifetime of being 1000% certain I would never do such a thing…Sorry if this is triggering for some. But that is the piece of this romantic mess I’d like to focus on…To let more of this part of the mess go.


Giving up my lover…

“I don’t want to live another night trapped inside a lonely life”. Those were the words of the song I randomly heard on the radio of his convertible one of the last times I saw my friend/lover. As we took those windy turns driving up the mountain, him looking for a romantic view to share, I knew those words would be burned into my memory like every bit of him I could hold onto that way.

I broke into tears. I always cried a bit when I was with him because it was all too clear any time I saw him could easily be the last time we’d ever have. I don’t know how he could stand me…Ah, but he was sweet and could easily turn my tears into laughter. Such a fun playmate…mysterious…alluring…and a bit of a clown…he liked to surprise me and make me laugh. He was absolutely magical…

There are times he doesn’t even seem real to me anymore…and yet he was…and knowing him and crossing lines with him has nearly destroyed me. I knew it was a bad idea, that was something I would have said my whole life, but being on this side of the line was immeasurably worse than I could have ever imagined…

The break up threats by my SO started early in our relationship…I didn’t recognize what they were…and they split my insides…There almost aren’t words for what this did to me…the massive toll it took…how it has changed me…turned me into someone I don’t know anymore, and I used to really know myself well…It has been one of the most jarring things I’ve ever experienced in life…to feel myself totally dismantled by the overwhelming nature of being with him (my SO).

If there was one thing I was certain about before I met my SO is that I would never be disloyal to a partner…I just didn’t know what it was possible for another human to throw at me…and I failed the challenge.

But for now I want to focus on my goodbyes since…I didn’t get the closure I needed.

To my friend/lover:

We had a chance, one chance, to say goodbye…I think I could never face you again…no, but I do wish I could know you were safe…that he [my SO] only damaged my life and not yours too. You were right. I was strong so I didn’t see it, but he was emotionally abusing me at times. You were right that marrying him would only make things worse, not better, but I loved him and I thought his troubles from his previous relationship would subside. I did not understand the nature of his behaviors back then and I was too understanding and accommodating when I should have been ONLY protecting myself. Sometimes I hide even from myself…

To myself:

The reasons I stayed after 2016 were complex and continually evolving. I stayed 6 more months for a promised job that later fell through…I was staying because I did love my SO and I realized he was very ill, and I still cared for him…I was staying because I wanted to repair things between us if possible…for various evolving reasons. For a chance at my “redemption”, for a chance to not “fail”, for the first time ever, at a relationship because of me…

I stayed because I began to see what was really going on…what had always been off and wrong about things between us…I stayed because I was so isolated and had nowhere to turn…all exits were cut off…even the internet was cut off from me…so I bought a phone and even that was hard to arrange and was used against me…The times I went to the police, random people in the streets, one of my students even…no one could help me….because of language, because of complexity, because I have no connections to anyone here…and I lost my connections back in my home country too.

All I had was my friend/lover….and I lost him too. I had no one. I am still pretty isolated. Every time I try to reach out for help…I end up with other problems…You offered to help me (my friend/lover) and I was too proud to take your help, but you were right. I needed your help and I should have taken it…but now it is too late for that…no one can truly help me but myself…

To my SO:

At this point there is probably no way to patch the fundamentally leaky nature of this relationship. You will always, sweet, loving, and even understanding as you can be even, will eventually mistreat me and I will always be confused and a bit broken if I am with you.

You created this one foot in/one foot out dynamic for us and the consequences are impossible to ignore anymore. The damage to me will likely only worsen as much as I wish it could be better because I’m just like that - determined, persistent, not one to give up. If I stay I will be desperately lonely and isolated…some days the despair will eat me up to the point I’d rather not live, but I will because that is what I do…keep living despite all the pain and disappointment of love and of life…

To my friend/lover & myself:

I remember the day I could have turned back from jumping off this cliff with you…The only thing that made sense to me in life that day I changed was that I loved you. That was it. “And how could love be wrong?” I foolishly reasoned. “How could it possibly be wrong to express love?” Especially when all the love I was offering my SO was so cruelly tossed back to me and I was being emotionally pounded with hate…and instability - the exact opposite of what I was looking for.

To my SO:

Honor? You want to talk about honor and betrayal my love? Let’s talk. Tell me a million more times of the depth and quality of your love for me as you cruelly ripped it from my hands on a weekly basis. Let’s talk about betrayal and honor and how you “could never be as horrible” as I am now…Tell me again, as it translates, that you would lay your hand in fire for me…Put your own hypocrisy and excuses on display about the affair you had earlier in life and disclosed to me early on after we met…and how I almost didn’t go with you because of it…and all the times you led me to believe, because of your insane jealousy, that you were online dating, could replace me in an instant with someone “better” from your non-Western culture, and how you made sure to denigrate mine though I was expected to understand and accede to yours, that you were already dating, were already arranging for a new wife, etc. You said all this as if it was true and real and how could I know it wasn’t? Ah, but it is okay to say such things…for you…as long as you don’t actually do them…words mean nothing to you.

Was the way you loved me honorable? I’m someone’s daughter, someone’s sister, someone’s friend. I am human. My life was in your hands, it still is. And you dehumanized me…you took every shred of all I offered and ripped it apart - I genuinely loved you. So, spare me the lectures about honor unless you want the story of my survival…what it’s been like to survive you.

I take my responsibility. None of the hotline counselors I spoke to that year and the next, the only human voices I could reach, said anything other than to forgive myself and that what you did was emotional/psychological abuse…And I never wanted to believe it. I still hate to say it. If you are gone someday all of this goes with you and I will never speak of it again…so do not tempt me…because life without you is easier for me than it will be for you. But that is not what I want…I don’t want to see your life destroyed…no matter what you did or will do to me…

(STOP F**KING BREAKING UP WITH ME! You had me. You had my love the whole time. Why didn’t you just take it? It was all yours!)

Nevertheless, I still take my share of responsibility because I knew better than to walk the sad,  desperate path of betrayal and lies. I do hold myself to standards. I never had to lie before I met you…but I was so afraid of your over the top reactions and total lack of understanding…and I didn’t want to be a target of your rage and jealousy…It was better that you didn’t notice me, unless you needed to use for me sex or other ways of “comforting” you…

I knew better, yes, but you had also drained me of all hope and took all the meaning of love (and sex even) out of my world…You and your massive black hole sized pain became my world…just taking and taking from me….You don’t wake up in your forties and do something totally out of character unless…in my case…unless you are under a tremendous amount of pressure and in a constant rolling crisis with no end in sight…because you can’t function in any way I can recognize as “normal”!

I didn’t want to hurt you, and I took all the times you called me a whore and worse in these past two years, but I loved my friend. I was not purposely trying to hurt you as you have purposefully tried time and again, your words, to hurt me. I loved him in ways you will never be able to comprehend because you don’t know what love is. He was my “home” for the short time I had him. You have treated me a like temp worker who never gets a permanent position, but keeps being baited along as if I will…keep the job. I don’t want it anymore.

I came to you for a home and a future and you snatched those dreams away from me, with utter cruelty. You stole all my innocence and surrounded me with corruption and lies. I had wanted kids, you offered that and took it away, after I already loved you. I accepted it and moved forward because I loved you more than the idea of kids. I wanted a home with someone, had been waiting my whole life,  and you ripped it away from me time and time again…so yes, he became my home. Those few hours I ever had with him in person…I felt more at home than I had felt since I was a child and my family was taken from me by illness. I know how it feels to lose everything because that is what keeps happening…no one stays. I am the one who should have abandonment issues, but I don’t. I get it. I understand what happened in my life and it is okay. There are no guarantees in life and that does not scare me or bother me…

There has been no forever home for me. All your promises were broken, and with utter cruelty, taking every secret dream and wish I had and breaking it over my head…but you were sorry. Always sorry and full of shame. Never able to change, but always sorry…but the apologies were about you and not for me really. Sigh. And all these constant mood swings…and brushing it all under the rug. “I’m crazy! I don’t know why I act like this! Forget it! Don’t talk about it. It never happened.” you would say as you curled into a ball or hid under blankets or bolted out of the room. 

He loved me and I loved him. It was that simple for us. We could not be together, not the first time, or the second time, or the third time our paths crossed in life… I knew how desperately sad and foolish we were. I knew it was a ticking time bomb that would explode in my face and wreck me, but that, that was better than being with you…trapped on this freakin’ continent alone with just you and your love/hate/love/hate/love/hate.

We only talked, my friend and I, about our chances at something more at the end…but it hurt too much to contemplate and so my mind tore it all up and I tried to convince myself he didn’t love me… but I know he did.

I had met this man at the right time, many years ago, when we were both single, young and free, but we were worlds apart and focused on our educations and the internet was just taking off so keeping in touch was a lot harder, nearly impossible financially at the time…I did the right thing back then and put up a wall with him when I started a new relationship with my second boyfriend that I thought would be forever, but wasn’t. I felt guilt over this for many years, for cutting him out of my life, and this was a big factor why I had trouble letting him go again… though you insisted I must. You were right too, but I couldn’t let him go…My loyalties were torn between the two of you and I could not find a way to reconcile it all…I should have been able to have him as friend and I should have been able to properly manage it, but I could not manage in your world because I didn’t recognize it…and you broke reality.

You know what it was like for me, after losing my career and all the other sacrifices I made for you and your kids and your ex even, to feel like I had failed on every front in life, then to see my friend/lover again and how close I had come to happiness if I had just made the right choice? I missed him by two f—kin’ weeks! And because I played by the rules. All my godd*mn life playing by the rules, and for what? For what? To see you break them all, despite your protestations towards piety in your faith? Really? I was done playing by the rules, but then it got bigger than I expected. I didn’t know how to stop it. I even tried to research how to stop it, that’s what a nerd I am. I am such a goodie goodie person I feel guilt if I don’t use a turn signal while driving or wait for a light to cross a street. Of course I felt guilt about this! Of course I did! But I was at the end of my life…I saw one last shot at happiness and I let myself have it…knowing that if I lived past this I would carry this burden around my neck for the rest of my life - whether anyone else ever found out or not about it made no difference because I knew. I knew. I knew it was wrong. For me. Just for me. But in that moment…that first night it happened…I didn’t even enjoy it. I felt guilty and horrible.

This was the  guy, the one person I could have had it all with, and yet not. If he had been the right person we would have ended up together. But the timing was off. After I lost him, what was it, for the third time, I kept thinking…maybe…maybe someday five or ten years from now he’ll try to find me again. Him this time, not me. But he won’t. I know him. He is content. Miserable in his marriage, but just content enough not to bother to make a change. He is either not brave or has too much to lose, and either way is okay. So be it. I want him to be happy and have a great life. He will follow the path of his sexless/totally lacking in intimacy marriage right to his grave, despite the fact that he saw, and I saw, he would have been so much happier with me and I with him…We were happy and it was easy and fun and there was genuine love there…it would not have been perfect, I do not idealize it, but it would have been great.

Oh god, I can still remember when he said he loved me. I had to go check it in the dictionary because it’s said two ways in his language and I was not sure which one he meant - the platonic or romantic version…But then I thought, what a fool I am, I didn’t need the dictionary, I saw his face. I saw how he felt. I saw how shy he was to say it. He meant it and he wanted me. He loved me dearly.

But it was not to be. At best, in this part of life, I could have been his mistress, but I decided not to take that route. I know myself well enough to know I could not hold this…could not exist like this, not even for him, and I would have done nearly anything to be with him…he made me feel that good…and not from the mind-blowing sex, neither of us needed that really, but from his kindness and the way he made me feel safe and happy and free.

I loved him. His perfect body, his quietness, his intelligence, his funny flashes of humor. The simple act of sharing food with him. I could stare at him endlessly, watch his movements and be charmed completely. I can still remember the time we were at the lake and he jumped in for a swim…then when he finished and was climbing the ladder back out of the water and onto land and I just could not believe the sheer beauty of his form…he looked like a freakin’ Greek god…and his shy, clever smile…Oh it all made me laugh…How did I end up in this movie?

I loved him d*mn you. D*mn you. D*mn you. D*mn you for destroying every memory I ever had of him. D*mn you. You had more love from me than I ever had for him. We had more! You and I had so much more! If you added it all up the amount of time I had with him that year and twenty years ago is barely a week, tops! But you were not able to receive my love and you shredded it and threw it in my face and dehumanized me.

You don’t believe me. I could have been scr*wing him for years, but I didn’t. I didn’t. I didn’t even contemplate it. I loved you that much that it was not even hard to turn the other way and not cross any lines with him. He really was just my friend, and that was enough for me… to make up for my past mistake of cutting him out of my life. That was all I wanted, but your ugly jealousy made it impossible to discuss it with you…though I tried…and so it went underground to a dangerous place…where lines can get crossed…

I didn’t even kiss him until after you said in your culture you had a right to rape me, until after you threatened to take away my health insurance when I wouldn’t have sex with you on demand at the highly inappropriate time and place of your choosing. Until after you refused to take me to the doctor - which was a wound too far…after what had happened in my childhood to my dad… And on and on…Of course, I wanted him…to crawl up onto his lap, wrapping my legs and arms around him, and feeling his arms around me... .to feel his intense stares and desire towards me. Of course I did. He was nicer than you and protective of me. But I still loved you too…and it felt so weird and horrible to love both of you at the same time. I didn’t even know that was humanly possible…it messed up my insides so freakin’ bad…


Sometimes I feel I am stuck with you because I don’t know how to get away from you [but there was a new opening on this today]…I am afraid of who you will destroy in the process if I try to leave. I am also with you because I love you, not like before, but I still love you. I just don’t know how to be with you anymore and I want to feel safe and normal and whole again and I want all this ugliness and pain out of my life. I am forgiving and understanding and protective and it is destroying me. I can’t move between paradigms here…The person I was when we started, the person you broke me into via your threats…maybe my only chance in life is to get away from you…

Remember how you said your ex did the one thing you asked her to never do? Kidnap your kids, like your mom had to kidnap your two younger siblings from your dad because they threatened to take them from her while she lived abroad? That? You found my two deepest pain spots (health and break ups) in life and you jumped up and down on them like a kid at a trampoline park.

I don’t want my former friend/lover to come back into my life. I just wish I could know he was safe - that I contained your destructive tornado of a personality to only damaging me. But there is no way to know. So I must learn to live with the not knowing. I must keep letting my old friend/lover/protector go until all the memories are gone. I never want that can of worms reopened. It will never bring me joy again, not like before. I want to remember him, when I do, in only the tiniest bits…but really…you made me wish I never met him because losing him was so extremely painful…every single freakin’ time I lost him. I never want him back, never want to see his face in my dreams…I want to believe that all is happy and perfect for him and he got to have a happy life.

I am sorry I hurt you. Seeing the amount of human suffering I caused has been horrific. Your agony, screams, nightmares, suicide threats, your suicide device you created and waved in my face, your threats to destroy me and everything in my world…You have made your point. I hurt you.

I loved you so much before all this…

Are you sorry you disrupted my access to talking to a therapist? And to a minister with your fits and efforts at control? Are you sorry you insulted my entire family and me?

He is no longer in my life. I will never know how he is. You finally made me regret I ever met him. He came to me in a dream last night. Looking like he did twenty years ago. But when he comes it is not fun…he always comes and tells me to stay away. And I will. But I don’t think this is his message. In real life I don’t think he’d be like this. This is the message I am giving myself, just with his face on it. I am breaking my own heart with these images in my head.

My memories of him used to comfort me - were one of my greatest comforts and joys in entire life. Thinking of him brought me some of the happiest moments of my life despite losing him all those years ago. All of that got ruined. Completely ruined. That is the reach you have…you have gone back in time…and ruined parts of my life that existed before I even knew you…you ruined even those things. There is nothing you touch that you do not find a way to ruin my love.

And after all this, you will come home and want me to love you, beg me to love you, be upset that I don’t love you enough, pressure me, pressure me, pressure me…until you can squeeze every last bit of life out of me.

It will take all the strength I have to survive this relationship with you and get out from under all of this. I have left relationships before, but having to do it all alone, with no help, with no net…with that freakin’ ocean out there…that whole freakin’ continent…and not one real friend…it will take all I have and more…just to get back to the bottom in my home country…

I want to go home…I wish there was one. I wish my dad was around…and there was a little farm somewhere waiting for me…but he is buried in his grave…and all that is left is to go lie there and let out more tears…and then pick up and move on again in life…and forget about romantic love once and for all…at my age I think you can get off the ride if you want, and I want that…because I can’t live with any more giving and not being loved back in a healthy way…in a safe way…in a right way…You were the last one my love. So, I will give my all until I can’t give anymore…and then it gets to be done…and I get to be finally free of all this pain.

To my friend/lover:

I had so much fun with you. I am sorry for all the mistakes I made along the way. I am glad I met you despite what it has meant for me. You went from being the happiest thing in my life…to…well, it was all burnt down to the ground.

I am mature and I will move on. I don’t need to go to the past again. Please don’t come to my dreams again. It makes me sad.

Okay. Enough for today! Sorry for this long post! Being trying for months to get up the nerve/feel safe enough online to talk this out... .

@pearlsw

You have done the right thing by writing this out.  Journaling whether in a notebook or here is an amazing form of catharsis.  The exercise of articulating these emotions in writing is a first step in trying to understand and reconcile them.

There is certainly no need to ever apologize for a lengthy post -it is literally the purpose of this forum.


I have been very upfront about my BPD lover being an affair partner.  Disclosure and honesty are necessary for healing.  To not be forthright and honest here is counterproductive and pointless.  Like in therapy, I believe here on BPD Family you have to grant your self acceptance be emotionally open.  The only way out is through. 

My own repression was the impetus of my affair.   What I would not have given to realize how unhappy and dissatisfied I had been!  My lack of will to examine my marriage, instead of blind acceptance, caused an emotional rift.  I accept the choices I have made, they are in the past and I cannot change them.  All we have is the present.  We must accept and attempt to understand our choices from the past, but we also must not let them rule our present and future.  Each day we must strive to do and be at our best. 

My point being you did the right thing in writing all you did in your posts.  Repression is an emotional debt -the longer you keep it the worse it becomes. 

This is a place for disclose, healing and perspective --it is a safe place full of compassion and understanding.

You are hurting a lot right now and for this I am deeply sorry.  If it is at all possible to see a therapist I would recommend it.  Try to find center, find some inner peace.  Then and only then try to figure out what is the right path.  In moments of darkness such as this it is very difficult, if not impossible, to make good life choices. 

You made a good choice in sending this post.  It is a start.


Wicker Man

I read all of it, pearlsw, and am glad you shared with us. Your post touched my heart. I’m sorry you are in pain, and I can understand and relate to so many of the feelings you have expressed. 

Know that we are here to listen to you and hold a space of non-judgement and compassion.

heartandwhole

Pearl,
There are so many things you said that could have been my words.  I have two main things I want to say to you:

You aren't alone.

It won't always hurt this much.

Thank you for sharing.  It really is a gift to be entrusted with the level of honesty and vulnerability that you offered us.  It has given me, for one, the ability to know that I am not alone.  It has given me the opportunity to reflect on my own experiences and feelings on that deep down level that can actually achieve healing.

I don't want to distract from your processing, but will share a few pieces of my story and where I am now.  I hope that it gives you hope.

My dBPDxh was never as cruel as your pwBPD, but he knew, consciously or unconsciously, how to control through neglect and threat of leaving.  I can now see the pattern of punishment when I would ask for him to love me; all the times when I would push for intimacy and partnership that resulted in silent treatments and "offers" to leave since he was never going to be the kind of husband I needed.  My love for him suffered a death by a thousand cuts and I decided to stop asking for anything from him.  I gave up.  I continued to give him all he asked of me.  He had my money, my housekeeping, my cooking, my parenting, and my body.  He had my mind and as much of my heart as he wanted, but he didn't want much of that. 

When a man came along who wanted my heart I told myself I wasn't stealing anything from dBPDxh.  I lied to myself in little bits and pieces until I convinced myself that it was okay to give myself to another man and to accept what he gave of himself to me, despite the fact that he was also married.  Our physical affair lasted 6 weeks.  Those 6 weeks hold my greatest regrets and the greatest love and care I have ever known from a man.  I am not exaggerating when I say that I nearly didn't survive my choice to betray not only my husband and my vows, but who I am. 

When I reached the crossroads I chose to honor my marriage, my children, and myself, as well as my affair partner's marriage and family by ending the affair and confessing to my husband.  I knew that keeping the secret of my affair would sentence me to a marriage where real intimacy would be impossible because I would always be protecting my secret.  I had no assurance that dBPDxh would ever offer the intimacy that I longed for.  He had never extended it through all our years of marriage, and after what I had done in betraying him... .  But I gave everything I had for the next two and a half years to rebuild my marriage and reclaim my self. 

Tomorrow is the four year anniversary of ending my affair.  It has taken me these four years to finally get to a place where I can say that I know and am living out who I am.  I am no longer crushed by either the shame of what I chose or the longing for the love I experienced.  I can use the word "love" in reference to what I had with my affair partner and know both the truth and perversion of truth that application of the word holds.  I know that what I did was understandable but not justifiable and have no fear that I will ever choose that path again. 

I know that I did everything in my power to give my husband the marriage that I had vowed on our wedding day.  My recent divorce from him does not invalidate my efforts or mean I failed. 

I mourn the loss of the marriage that could have been, both before and after my affair.  I mourn the loss of the friendship I could have had with my affair partner if I had not chosen to cross the line.  I mourn the pain I caused a man I loved, a man I had pledged my love to, and a woman whose marriage I violated.  I mourn the loss of innocence of our respective children who have learned or will one day learn that their parents were unfaithful. 

I still mourn, but I also rejoice.  I rejoice in the knowledge that beauty has risen from the ashes of my wrongdoings.  I rejoice in a new knowledge of what it is to forgive and be forgiven.  I rejoice in the truer knowledge of what love is and what a relationship can (and should) be.  I rejoice in the ability to be fully known and fully loved by those who have stood by me through these past 4 years.  I rejoice in knowing that a broken spirit can be mended and grow to be stronger than ever before.  I rejoice in knowing that I have faced my worst fears and survived.  I rejoice in knowing that I am in a place where I equally accept that I deserve to have the love that I long for and that I will not die from the lack of it. 

Pearl, it is my deepest wish today to give you a glimpse of the beauty that still lies ahead of you.  I can't wish the pain away from you, because I know the truth of what Wickerman said - The only way out is through it.  But in that pain, I wish you hope.

BG

Hi Wicker Man,

I can't thank you enough for your care, attention, understanding and support on this! It was seeing your posts and replies on this board that inspired me to finally let more of this out. I couldn't before, for safety reasons, but I'm feeling more and more free to speak my mind.

Because of threats my SO made regarding my friend/lover, his family, kids, and business, and towards me and my family we didn't get to do what I think most couples trying to get through such things do - lay it all out there, be honest, and face it. We can't... .and this will likely doom us as trust has been damaged - both ways. That's been a hard one for me as I cruised through life being pretty darn trustworthy and honest to a fault, but with his extreme jealousy I just couldn't come clean entirely, though I have offered as much as seemed safe to do.

This isn't the only problem being in this relationship has caused me I was suddenly remembering today. During this relationship I had to go to another country temporarily for visa reasons and I was sexually harassed and also assaulted and my SO did not believe me and terrorized me over it. I had to fight so hard to stand up against his verbal insults over this too, on top of all I wrote above. I am so mad at myself for still being with him after all he's done at times, but... .it's sort like the politics of my home country right now... .you get hit with so much stuff, a barrage of crises, that you can't even keep 'em all straight and you just end up in survival mode.

He apologizes for all he says, but takes it all back when he dysregulates. I couldn't have a picked a worse person to step out on. But heck, I never stepped out on anyone, I was pushed out and pulled back so many times like a piece of garbage I still can't make any sense of it. I never knew if the relationship was off or on. I still don't. The damage is severe from this and I had zero knowledge about this breakup stuff before I found this site. His breakups would always trigger... .well, breakup behavior in me. Moving on, being open to other options, and then not as he'd pull me back into his emotionally damaged cage.

I can't do therapy now. I may do it if/when we finally break, but honestly, I feel okay overall. I wrote this out because a big piece of my story here was missing, but I have said some of this, minus the cursing, to him. The hard part is not fully being able to talk it out. We did talk at times and he was really grateful, but it is hard for him to control his emotions. He deeply regrets his breakup threats and what they led to for both of us, but still... .it is such a pattern I think it will never end. He says he can stop it, but... .we'll see. He has a few more months before I give up or he gives up, maybe.

We have set a deadline of this fall to either work things out or break. We have so many other health issues, physical pain, that we haven't gotten to dealing with our emotional pain, then you add in language and cultural issues, and doing any kind of therapy is another mountain to climb. He's open though. I am the more nervous one. I don't think he can handle it emotionally. I wish he'd do it on his own. Or I could go on my own, but I am also less and less certain I have the energy or interest for saving the relationship after all that's happened.

with deep gratitude, pearl.

Hi heartandwhole,

Thank you so much! It has given me some relief to get this out a bit. I am still digging around in my brain to see what else I need to get out. It really feels like I shut my brain down for a long time to preserve it. Well, not only that, I was not allowed to feel or smile or think... .I was not even safe in my own head so I just left it like an abandoned warehouse. I gotta get back in there and put some things in order though!

thanks so much for the support!

~pearl.

Hi BeagleGirl,

Wow! This whole section on rejoicing is truly a beautiful piece of writing! I must save this away somewhere for myself!

Oh yes! You have brought me a great deal of comfort!

I am so grateful to everyone on this thread for listening to my pain and sharing about theirs too! It means a lot to me to hear the stories of others because it gives me new insights and is so instructive! It really touches me. I am so grateful to talk to other’s with such experiences!

Mine was like a series of one night stands spread over about 9 months. There was never any plan to see each other again between times, it would just suddenly crop up. It wasn’t until the third time we looked at each other, shocked, and acknowledged what we were doing.

He was an old flame from my twenties. I met him while traveling and we had a great time together, it was like a movie, such a perfect time. Sigh. It served as a touchstone for me for years of a romance that never went bad and I cherished it for that. I sometimes wondered if I’d do better at one offs like this, brief romances with no future, instead of full-blown relationships, but…I still do prefer serious relationships despite a lot of disappointment in that department.

I alternated between guilt and less guilt. I knew he was in a sexless marriage and I had met him before she did, but the part about him having kids bugged me a lot. She didn’t want him and I was not sure if they had an open marriage or she had had affairs on him - that part bothered me less, unless I thought about her as a mom. We speak different languages, one reason we didn’t work out the first time around, so I don’t have his story straight. He also was kinda quiet and shy, though he liked to hear me talk about my stuff. The best part was him writing or saying to me “You are not alone.” I think now if I’d just found this site back then I could have gotten that message here and been okay, safe.

I just know it felt like I had some kind of time machine to the past. We will likely never have the right timing and so it goes. Sometimes the great ones simply get away. I hate feeling like I was pressured to hate him. I don’t hate him or my SO. I understand them both actually.

I hoped for awhile that I could “redeem myself” by making my relationship with my SO work after this. This may answer the question many people have of “what are you still doing with this guy ?” that I could never make entirely clear. It is almost as if this situation with my friend drew me in deeper into this messed up relationship - that urge to set things right and be a "success" by making it past it, but we don't really have the right formula in place to make it and time is running out I think.

I am not really one to take a bunch of crap. I don’t want a relationship with any kind of abuse in it, and I don’t think I deserve that, but…I still just can’t wrap my mind around someone who behaves the way he does. My mind hears “breakup” I hear, “relationship needs attention, must fix situation, problem-solve”. I don’t hear "give up"…or I didn’t start to hear that until finally at the start of this year. My energy/hope/interest/love has been depleted a lot.

I just want to write out a few things to get pieces of my brain back that feel dead. Not to wax poetic over my friend/lover’s special qualities, but to remember him in a real way. To fix my brain and let myself grieve my loss without the sky falling in on me…and having to attend to my SO’s emotions over it. I have done that enough for now…

Thanks again to all for these warm and heartfelt responses! I am so grateful!

~pearl.

Pearl,
I'm going to play therapist here and ask you how much of that statement you really believe is true.  I'm going to break it into three parts:

"He regrets his breakup threats"
"He regrets what his breakup threats led to for him"
"He regrets what his breakup threats led to for you"

I'm going to do my best Formflier impression and wait for you to answer before giving you my thoughts.

BG

Hey BG,

You make me smile! Nice impression!  

Yes, he is very capable of shame and guilt even. He does feel ashamed of what he's done and is actually very afraid to lose me. I do not know what combo of mental health issues he has. He is undiagnosed and will likely remain so, beyond his depression.

He is also capable of empathy. He does care that he has hurt me so. I would also say he still really looks up to me emotionally. He is still going around making major declarations of love for me and my character.

But he was extremely hurt and simply not ready for this relationship. He never had a healthy relationship. He was a mess when I met him because of losing his kids, but I didn't know he had other things out of order, and he seemed to be adjusting well. He wasn't, and the story of their kidnapping wasn't over by a long shot. His family seemed to vouch for his version of his first marriage and so I felt reassured by that. No one saw what was really going on with him, it took me years to begin to piece it all out. He is still a mystery!

But none of this means he can be consistent or change his behavior. None of it. I am sure he wishes he could though.

warmly, pearl.

I'm going to propose an alternate view of reality.

What if he experiences shame and guilt over the pain he causes but he does not change his behavior because those behaviors are how he keeps from "losing you"?

I'm not saying this is the case, just asking you to look at another potential angle.  I see lots of similarities in our personalities.  I'm a "fixer" and the idea of giving up rarely even occurs to me.  I also saw it as my responsibility to earn any "love" and attention that was being withheld (thanks dad).  When my therapist first proposed the idea that dBPDxh used threats of leaving me as a way to get me to stop asking him to take responsibility and treat me in a loving way, I thought she was confused.  But as I started to look back, I saw the pattern.  When I would confront issues in our marriage or his treatment of me (or his irresponsibility with money or neglect of our children... .) he would withdraw affection.  Most of the time it was just silent treatment, but in the biggest crises he would "offer" to leave.  It was his way of saying "if you ask this of me, I'll leave, so let's go back to status quo". 

My response to his silent treatments and threats to leave was to work harder to keep him happy.  When he saw that I was in that mode, then he would respond with remorse for the way he had treated me and we would have our "honeymoon" period.  But inevitably I would start to get frustrated with carrying all the responsibility for our lives and his happiness with minimal return and I'd start asking him to step up, so he'd respond with withdrawl... .rinse, repeat. 

I spent last summer really studying the concept of repentance.  I learned a lot about the difference between remorse/regret and repentance.  My dBPDxh showed a lot of remorse and regret.  He felt a lot of remorse and regret over his behavior.  But ultimately he never repented.  Repentance means turning away from the behavior and finding a new way of responding. 

I repented after my affair.  I turned away from the relationship with my affair partner, learned why I had made the choices I did and what I needed to do to never choose that behavior again.  I put barriers in place to keep my feelings from driving my actions.  I made myself accountable not only to dBPDxh, but to trusted friends and a counselor.  I can guarantee that if I had stopped at remorse and regret, I would have been back in the arms of my affair partner or someone else within 6 months because the reward (feelings) I got from being with another man was ONE HECK of a motivator for behavior. 

I think dBPDxh is still puzzled by the shift in my behavior.  I no longer responded to his withdrawl of affection by rushing in to fix things.  I stood my ground, and even moved away slightly.  He did hurtful things (like going on a syndicated radio show and revealing my affair) and instead of rushing to him to help him understand how much he hurt me and begging him to work with me to fix our relationship... .well, I guess I did that in that specific instance.  But I watched like a hawk for the shift from remorse to justification and, lo and behold, there it was.  I called him on it.  He shifted back to remorse... .but then quickly back to justification.  At that point I withdrew and explained that I couldn't trust someone who could find justification for that kind of behavior.  I stopped trying to fix it.  I waited for repentance.  It never came.

I apologize if I'm projecting my situation on yours.  I just wanted to give you some food for thought.  Understanding the difference between remorse and repentance was the key to my freedom, so I thought I'd hand it to you and see if it opens your lock.

BG

Same from me. You are brave to let it all out here. Even with my counsellor, it took months to get it all to the surface for me. There were aspects I didn't even know I was holding onto.

I have plaque in my bathroom:

Accept what is.
Let go of what was.
Have faith in what will be.

Ironically I didn't find it for a few months after we moved, but I recently found it and look at it every day. It was the extra push I've needed of late.

Deep breath. You can do this!

I will weigh in full force tomorrow morning -but I want you to consider why you are reluctant to consider therapy either as a way through or a way to find closure to a very long relationship.

This is conjecture and projection.  If he says he is willing you should take him at his word.   I said these same words to my wife -- I leave every therapy session with my shirt soaked through.  Hell -once I left without paying and my therapist hadn't noticed either... .I got to the car returned to the office and gave the payment to his receptionist.  My therapist and I are both deeply committed to my growth.

Where there is life --there is hope.  If he says he wants to try therapy see how much he is truly willing to commit.

In my humble opinion you both need therapy individually and as a couple.  3 therapists.  It is a lot of money, pain and effort --but nothing compared to a divorce.


Yep... .


This is what I mean by finding center.  Also if you go the deep dive into therapy -- at least you get closure.  From what I understand this is rare in cases of BPD relationships. 




Back at you... .Wicker Man :)

I will give you a more full response tomorrow morning PDT.

Wow, Pearl, thanks for sharing all this.

I got brush-strokes of the story here and there before, and I understood enough to know you were a loving sufferer. To get an abstract notion of your pain. And it is great that you took the time to let us know, and more importantly to let it out for yourself.

You know we understand and we care, and I wish we were enough to make you feel you are not alone.

I know the pain of loving two people at the same time. I don't wish it on anybody. Nothing wrong with loving, nothing wrong with showing love, as you said, and at the same time, you know you'll end up hurting the 3 of you deeper than any other pain you felt before. But we haven't learn to stop loving, so you can't make it stop either.

For me, my lover was the pwBPD, and the more natural/logic/normal loving RS was my wife of 15 years (my only RS ever up to that point). The marriage deteriorated in a normal way, she didn't treat me as an equal, but having lived what came after, it was a walk in the park. I thought my marriage was over before being with this new woman, but I hadn't stop loving her when I was also in love with the new woman. It broke me completely.

For a long time, it was unbearable to not know if my ex-wife was OK, and I felt I just wanted that. I relate to that. Also, I relate with erasing all the good memories, in my case of my only RS that had lasted all my adult life. Most of my friends were common friends. My nieces and nephews called her aunt too, I was used to speak in terms of "we" more than "I". And everything had to go because of the nature of the feelings it woke in my new BPDgf, as if all my life, even 15 years before meeting her, I had been cheating on her. And she's really mad about it. I feel guilty about having memories that have nothing to do with my new GF. Since we are in a RS, I haven't had a single conversation with my ex, not a coffee, or a phone call. I never thought about coming back to her. But, I pay everyday as if I had done that and more.

It has nothing to do with your case, just that the guilt is amplified, and the chaos is way bigger because their reactions make us suffer all the more. But I got to tell you that when my ex was very understanding and forgiving, it hurt as hell too.

You love both your parents, all your siblings, all your kids... .You don't stop loving one person because you start loving another. Yet, I wish it hadn't happened to me, and maybe to you too. It left me broken, and I don't think I would ever love again after this either. But I also think I'm too close to the picture. I know I am, and I know you are, a loving person. We need time to take care of ourselves, and we know we have earned that. We know that someone that comes to our lives, it is hard that they could understand the pain we've been through. So it's a lonely feeling. Like we have stepped out of the reality many people live in. I think to myself "I could have another RS, if it is 0% complications". But then, I survive everyday in this one that is 99% complications, and hardly ever affection towards me. So I'm clearly underestimating myself.

I spend now days when I think I don't care anymore. Then I look at her, and I still feel love towards her. I still wish I could make her feel good and safe.

Something happened today in the subway. I saw an attractive woman, and I didn't feel any sexual thing, I just felt "I wish she would let me hug her, in silence", a total stranger. It almost made me cry. We are starving for simple, safe kindness. We should not be sorry about having that need because is as natural as being born. We all need someone who is unconditionally on our side. And we are that and much more to them, when we get total uncertainty in return, when not abuse. It takes a lot of... .something to endure this life. And it leaves us thinking we won't be capable of being a whole person after this.

But I don't believe I would think this after some months of being alone, and in peace. After licking my wounds. And we are not alone. We have this place where people understand our complicated feelings and reallities. That's a lot. And without the jealousy and control (voluntary or not) we would be meeting other people, some friends, some people to chat with, and we would build another new net of support. With our new skills in listening and validation, we can make anyone be our friend ;-P

You've had an interesting life. You have a lot to tell and a lot to give and teach. You are one of the good ones, one of the people that is worth the time to get to know you. You just have had a lot of time someone in your life making you think "Am I, really?" Yes, you are. Whether you stay or you leave, you are an amazing person.

Don't you forget that.   

@PearlSW  I am interested to hear, if you are willing to share, why you are not interesting in trying couples counseling with your husband.  I am not religious and do not have any ulterior motive to try to compel people to fix their marriages --but I am stubborn. 

Personally, I stayed in my marriage far too long in the state it had been.  When I (confessed?) informed my best friend about my affair and impending divorce he told me "I don't understand... .I simply don't understand... .why it took this long."  He had seen my relationship with my wife since college and had no idea why I had stayed.  My marriage was sexless and as abusive as I would allow.  I drew boundaries, but there was rage waiting for me just beyond those boundaries and they were constantly tested.  I had the misguided impression I could love the personality disorder out of her... .

--I had always hoped our relationship would somehow magically get better and the years slipped by -25 of them.  I hid in my work, friends, movies, books and various hobbies.  I had suggested counseling several times and was rebuffed.

Enter affair partner.  I fell head over heals for fantasy this woman represented --You may have read my posts so I will not bore you with irrelevant detail.  My slow motion train wreck of a marriage had laid fertile ground for an affair.  --Not justification, simply and explanation of the situation as I now understand it.

Several things have happened since ending my affair and returning home.  My wife and I have taken a good hard look at ourselves and our relationship.  My wife sent me an email asking if it isn't worth trying to save 25 years of common history -both the good and the bad.  It was an invitation to join her on a very difficult journey of enlightenment and self discovery.

I am happy for the opportunity -but the specter of my affair haunts me.  My wife has not had a 'trigger' or displayed anger in weeks --our time together currently is pleasant and we are talking about our future.  Trying to avoid the pitfalls of our past and falling into old patterns.  It is hard going, but we are both very committed and trying to making it work for our mutual benefit and happiness.

For me on the other hand, I am in the unenviable position of having my affair as a litmus test -a mirror held up reflecting myself and my marriage.  I battle with not waxing on about the unrealized potential of my affair.  Intellectually I know ':)ream Come True' (translation affair partner's name) would have very likely been devastating to my future, but in my heart I still miss her.

'Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve (in the open)'  Boy... .You said it sister!  It is incredibly hard grieving the loss of ':)ream Come True' while spending all of the rest of my energy trying to be positive about the reconstruction of my marriage.

Having had an affair I experienced an incredible loss of innocence .  The two women, my wife and ':)ream Come True' are polar opposites.  OC(PD) vs B(PD) hot vs cold, lazy vs driven, magical vs grounded.  I fear it will take me years of hard work to exorcise ':)ream Come True' from my heart and mind.  I would give anything to not have the comparison.

However, Pandora's box has been opened and there is no undoing it.  I have to process, to work toward my own understanding and reconciliation. 

I have a date at Superior Court tomorrow and I believe we are going to move to dismiss the petition for divorce -this isn't an end to the hard work, but the real beginning --just another step on a long journey.

My affair was also a loss of innocence for my wife.  I shattered her trust, self image and put her in mortal fear.  I was her first boyfriend her dependable man and a life long constant.  I will never fully understand the pain I caused her, but I respect it and will do my best to earn and rebuild her trust. 

This pain and devastation has caused my wife to look at her personality disorder --she is beginning to understand how it effected me as well as her work associates.  She is, for the first time in her life, considering her disorder as something which needs to be addressed. 

A wedge is slowly being driven between the woman I love and the OC(PD) which has been a pall for her.  I wish we could have had this discovery without my infidelity -but in my heart of hearts I do not believe she would have ever entered couples counseling, much less individual therapy without this shock.  Please understand I am neither expressing, nor implying my affair was a good idea --but there is a silver lining in an otherwise very dark chapter in our lives.

Here I have to say you are lucky.  I never saw this level of introspection from ':)ream Come True'.  I have said over and over I am not a mental health professional and may not diagnose people -but in my opinion she suffers profoundly from BPD like symptoms... .(cutting, dysphasia, disassociation, flirtatious relationship with the truth, risky behavior, past suicide attempt and so forth). 

She is very young and had steamrolled all of the men in her past relationships.  It wasn't until I left her that she gnashed the gears and went into a full reverse claiming her transgressions were a 'threat' -trying to make me stronger.  The poor girl never saw I have terrible strength.  Yes -I am a codependent.  Yes -I am a people pleaser.  Yes -I am a nice guy.  I also have a sense of self, truth, and justice.  My point here is if you husband has some empathy and is willing to express some level of responsibility there may be some hope in therapy.


I certainly understand this statement.  It was true for both my wife and ':)ream Come True' --but how many people really are 'ready' for a healthy relationship?  We find ourselves here today for whatever reason and happenstance.  The question being is there something worth salvaging? 


Do you wish he could change?  If he could would you be willing to work with him through this change?  These are not easy questions.

My wife asked me if we are not simply staying together for financial wellbeing and out of fear of being alone.  I answered 'We can never go back to what we had.  My affair destroyed our old marriage -and even if we could go back we should not'.  If we were not both in therapy as well as couples counseling I would not have returned and considered reconciliation. 

I did not have an affair because I was 'thrill seeking'  I had an affair because I was deeply unhappy in my marriage and with my perceived life path.  --This was not a methodical or conscious decision -but an eruption from my subconscious.  This issue dominates my time in individual therapy.  I need to reconcile what I did and why.  I need to find a way to be content and happy with myself and my marriage  --it will be a hard road for me, but one I believe worth traveling.

Please take everything I have said with a grain of salt -and accept it in the spirit it has been offered. I do not know you, your husband or the level of pain and abuse you have suffered.  I am simply playing devil's advocate and offering my situation as possible parable.

Wicker Man

Hi MeandThee29,

Oh, thanks for these kind words! I always remember the tile of a book one of my teacher's in High School gave me: "You can't keep a good woman down." Always loved that, and that she gave that to me when I was only 16! :)

I really appreciate the company and support - sorry to be slow getting back, some days I am not so free to be on the boards! :)

~pearl.

Hi WickerMan,

Up until January of this year I was entirely willing to give this relationship my all. I am not feeling strongly about that at the moment, but that may change. It would take some kind of spark or inspiration at this point, or if he could go more than a week or two without ending the relationship. It's pretty hard to battle on from that place of constant off/on. I've done this for 7.5 years. I've had enough of the on/off when his emotions run high.

Again, to be clear, he was breaking  up regularly from the first week we met, and it just got more and more frequent, on top of other symptoms of his as well. Because of my actions it added a lot of complication to this issue. He had/has every right to break, and I felt I had to do a certain amount of atonement, but I have to draw the line at abuse over it all. Yes, I hurt him, but I would not treat him with the same level of terrorism, indignity, and excess as he's afforded me. I had to give him some leeway, but not be abused. It was not easy to walk that line.

Now, yes, in my background I am probably similar to you. I am strongly against breakups, and believe in giving it my all and not tossing something away lightly. He is actually very religious, but in his faith, divorces are possible - for the male. He just has to say three times "I divorce you" and it's a done deal in sentiment. By law, in the country we reside in, it is much, much more involved. We will likely try to do mediation if we go that route. I'd like to spare him the extra expense and get him the best deal possible.

Do you mean closure in terms of this relationship or my friend/lover? I would have liked closure regarding my friend. I couldn't get it before, so that is why I'm getting some of this out now. I've just laid the groundwork here though. I think I haven't gotten into the depths yet. I think there is more to say.

Or do you mean closure if this ends? To be honest, thanks to the support I have here, this could be one of the less painful breakups I experience - if I initiate it.

My SO just said yesterday he is ready to "pay any price to save our relationship". He offered counseling for himself and for me. I was surprised. This was new for him. Wish he had been saying such things and was this together last year. I'm going to think about it. I am not sure my feelings towards him are strong enough to merit such efforts at this point, after all he's said and done this year and last, etc., but I am willing to consider it.

I tried to get free help from a minister earlier in the year and he blocked that and threw a big fit over it. He also sabotaged my effort to do some online counseling last year too. Now that he is medicated he is a bit different and could perhaps not have big meltdowns, but... .we'll see.

Thank you so much for all your thoughts and insights! Your wisdom is much appreciated!

~pearl.

Hey Joe,  

I really, really appreciate you dropping by!   I was always impressed by how much of yourself you laid bare on your threads and it was always hard for me feeling like I could not get the full story out. It’s complicated and it was not safe!  

The loving two people thing has been too much for me! The way you write about it though helps me to make sense of it. It was so odd to have two people in my heart at the same time. I had no idea there was room for that! I cared for each one and…it hurt to see both of them hurting and feeling helpless to do anything…and just like I was sinking into an ocean over all this…

Yes, I wish there was a safe way to know. It’s hard but letting him go for “his safety” (and mine) helps make it easier to let go, but not entirely so.

When I picture you in the subway just wishing for some kind words and a hug! Oh Joe!   Yes, simple, and safe kindness has a great deal of appeal to me too!

Oh yes, living in two realities like this has been hard. It broke my life in ways I never even imagined possible. It has had such a heavy psychological toll on me. Really. And yet somehow I am awe of it all. I had no idea such things could even happen to/for a person!

Yes, I hit those low points where I feel like I don’t care anymore. I try to remember those are “just thoughts” and like clouds they too will pass.  

Oh yes, it is always good to remember there are other options in life - it can be so much more if we ever do start again - either one of us!

Awwww. What kind words from you, and I say them to you as well! We are good people and we deserve the best in life.  

with deep gratitude, pearl.  

This is a good sign.  It sounds like he would benefit from therapy whichever way your relationship goes.  My wife began therapy when I left her.  She realized she was unhappy with her disorder and knew she needed to get help for her own happiness.  I was shocked what a difference six months of therapy had made.  She really began to be a different person.

On the other hand my BPD ex did a full reversal when I told her I was leaving.  She went from raging to obsessing about keeping me in the relationship.  From what I heard a week ago she has still not let the idea of 'us' go.  It is interesting (I mean horrible) the same mechanism which would have driven her to destroy our relationship now presents itself as an obsession to keep the relationship alive --this will be the topic of my therapy session later this morning.  BPD is as fascinating as it is devastating -what a truly terrible disorder. 


Yes -what a difference a year makes.  This last year for me consisted of an affair, suing for divorce, a broken engagement and the beginning of reconciliation.   180˚ turn upon 180˚ turn... .  As you said -what I would not give to know then what I know now!  --but we do the best we can each day with the information we have.



This is what I was suggesting.  Find a way to clear your mind and figure out what you want.  In my limited experience couple's counseling is a pretty good place to begin to see how you feel about the relationship.  As the sessions go on you may get a preview of what progress might be made.


It may be worth speaking to him about a minister, online counseling or seeing a therapist now to gage his reaction.  His reaction, in my opinion, would be telling.  You may garner an idea of his commitment to bettering your relationship. --Once again if this is the right thing for you.

You are fortunate he is responding to medication.  From my understanding people suffering from BPD usually don't. 

If you two do decide to end your marriage mediation is a good route assuming both parties are willing to be fair and honest.  If you can trust your husband financially then mediation will be fine and save both of you a lot of money and time.  If either one of you is unreasonable then you will end up breaking mediation and having to lawyer up anyway.  My wife and I for all of our issues have always been in lockstep over money.  We have actually never had an argument over money --everything else under the Sun, but never money.  Even in the final days before our divorce we kept 1 bank account and shard credit cards.  --However if you divorce you must go into the mediation with no guilt.  Mediation is a business transaction -not personal.  It is surreal, but necessary to look at your marriage as a corporation in chapter 11.


Ugh.  Wisdom?  Have you read my posts?   I am opinionated... .That much  I will grant.   The jury is still way out on Wise... .

Further -having had an affair makes reconciliation even more difficult.  There is very little written about the grieving process the 'betrayer' must silently process. 

Affairs are chocked full of limerence and idealization.  Coming back 'down to Earth' into a damaged marriage from the 'high' of an affair is incredibly confusing and painful.  Putting any feelings of guilt aside, which further complicate matters, the unfair comparisons we inevitably make between our lover and our marriage partner are confusing at best and damaging at worst. 

Comparing an idealized future to a damaged past.  Even intellectually knowing how my affair would have played out, considering ':)ream Come True' had full blown BPD traits, I still struggle to push her out of my heart.

As you mentioned in your reply to Joe -I also never stopped loving my wife, but that love had become more of a fraternal 'care'.  In fact, this is what our marriage had devolved into over the last 20 years -roommates.  Even when I 'knew' I was leaving I spent my last weeks here in the US doing maintenance on what would have become her home.  Simply because I still 'loved' her and wanted to make her life easier. 

Interestingly this was one of the tells ':)ream Come True' was perhaps not the person I hoped she had been.  She could not understand why I didn't want to leave my wife's life in ruins.  She actually told me 'Anything you can't take with you should be burned'.  I suggested she speak her her mother about this -when her father left them he had left them nothing.

Ironically, I remember when ':)ream Come True' was raging about this I thought -Oh God if she would ever divorce me it would be a train wreck.  She is young and was speaking from her heart -but telling me she is actually quite a brutal young lady. --I have never been a big fan of brutality... .

My point... .Which I am slowly approaching... .   I am projecting my feelings on to you, but I am guessing you have a lot to process, perhaps even more than you currently realize.  Your feelings may take some time to sort out.  It is possible to love two people, but it causes extreme cognitive dissonance. 

I am six months into no contact with ':)ream Come True' and the reconciliation of my marriage -and this is only the beginning of a long process.  I should think my wife and I will be in therapy for quite a long while to reboot and get onto the right path.

I cannot imagine the pain you have suffered spending nearly 8 years in a relationship with someone who appears to be suffering from BPD -but give yourself the emotional space and some time to figure out if dissolution is right for you.  It may very well be, but take it slowly.  You are at a turning point in your life.


Wicker Man

I spent much of today's therapy session talking about how to come to terms with what I experienced during my affair.  This is 6 months out!  How to cope with, uncouple and understand the feelings I had for my lover.  --This is difficult and from what my therapist told me today there hasn't been much written on the subject. 

Loving two people, for me, has been easier to reconcile than to have been loved by two people.  There is no joy in this --no egocentric rush, just a sense of loss.  As I rebuild my marriage knowing there is another devastated by the loss of me is excruciating.  The reciprocal was equally true when I was leaving my wife.

It doesn't feel like a matter of guilt, but rather having empathy for the amount of pain I was causing.  This is once again true in the reversal of the situation.  I am working toward healing my marriage, but have left my affair partner alone to cope with her pain and the loss of our dream.  Yes -she pushed me away, or rather her disorder forced her to push me away, but we were deeply in love.  There is such tragedy in BPD.

Throughout the experience I was honest with both woman and perhaps this is why I do not feel guilt per se.  I never lied to my affair partner and now that I am reconciling my marriage there has been a full disclosure of the affair.  My version of doing the right thing in a bad situation I suppose... .

I feel I am walking the right path, but it is painful.

I have stated before I see the entire experience, both having had an affair and being in a relationship with B(PD) characteristics as a loss of innocence.  In the last year I have seen soaring highs and crushing lows.  More pain and tears, my own and of those around me, than in all my previous years.  I read, journal and apply myself in therapy to try to find some enlightenment -it is slow in coming.

In two hours I will appear in Superior Court and will move to dismiss our divorce.  I would have thought this would be a joyous moment, but I feel more resolved than joyful.   My wife and I have a lot of work ahead of us.  Work we have owed for decades -I hope with every fiber of my being we stay on the right path and do this heavy lifting.  I do not wish to fall back into the comfortable deadening slumber which had been our marriage. 

I cannot and will not allow another affair it has been devastating for me and those I love.

Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve --This is such a profound statement and one of which I wish I had no understanding.  --Innocence lost.

@pearlsw thank you for starting this thread.  It forces me to articulate more painstakingly some of the thoughts and emotions which continue to be a sticking point in my healing process. 

Wicker Man

Hey Wicker Man,

As I've said, your writings on this board were a big inspiration in getting me to put this stuff out there. Most people don't give a d*mn about the pain people in our shoes have experienced, so it is nice to find others who are willing to sit with that pain, articulate it, and share it - and you are great at this!

It's interesting, because I shut parts of my brain and heart down for so long about it, it is much harder to access, well, and because of shame it is hard. I have spoken somewhat openly about it at times, but there are such tiny bits and pieces that are just too much to bear.

Like today, I as I was driving back from work I was remembering the way my SO crawled up into my brain after this and ended up invading my privacy in ways I couldn't even fathom. I remember the threats he made against my friend/lover and his family, and business, and... .it when I think of the depths I've been degraded and humiliated all along the way... .I can't even imagine why I am still with him. And he just bops in and acts "normal" as if I should still love him. I don't know how to love him anymore I am starting to see... .because the conditions that led to this are still there - breakup threats. Weekly threats. So, I've never had that feeling I was in a relationship with him, not really... .I remember even at the time my friend came into my life I jokingly told him I was not single, but wait two weeks and I might be... .and two weeks seems long now!

I was thinking about your recommendations... .and I think I'm just the kinda gal who would rather sort this kinda thing out with friends over long extended discussions punctuated with a lot of laughter at the absurdity of it all... .unfortunately I've lost most of my friends living overseas and have not been able to replace that very well.

I don't really want to ever go to therapy... .but who knows with the way my brain was feeling today... .which was not good. I've tried it briefly a few times and it was typically nothing special and of little use to be honest. I feel like the biggest thing I'm missing right now that would make me feel better is just exercise... .feeling in control of my body and activating those good chemicals, but I have some injuries that are jamming me up a bit... .We'll see... .

I feel like I'm living under the subculture of my SO and also another larger culture of the country we live in... .and being a continent away from any native speakers I know... .and so distant from my own culture... .I exist as a culture of one... .it's just enormous... .this whole experience.

Oh, that is interesting, being loved by two people was not as painful as loving two at the same time for me. I just don't know what to do with that anymore. I am afraid somehow I've broken my internal systems. I dunno. But being loved by two also made me feel guilty - like I was "double dipping" somehow! And it is horrible because it makes you feel... .a bit shallow with each of them... .because you can go to one or the other as needed, and that's not right for anyone.

In an out and out polyamorous situation I'm sure that's a big upside of it. But when all parties are not consenting, not a good idea - for me at least. There were at least no lies between my friend/lover and I. I had to have that clearly spelled out. I didn't even plan this... .it was just one incident, then a big gap, then you get over it, put it behind you, and then it would spark up again. He was driving it really, but I was complying. When he had time he'd offer it up and then I'd think about it, not feel good really, but wanted to make him happy, and not lose him.

That was a hard part of it too - in some ways I was just making them happy and not myself. I kept losing myself in it all. I mean, as an immigrant alone with two other cultures dominating my world and these two men wanting me... .I really lost touch with my own needs - which was really to just be myself and be just in one relationship. This grew up in the cracks of the primary relationship. Cracks that were never repaired and kept cracking.

Please, please feel free to talk about yourself as much as you like in replies! It gives me insights and feels like a real exchange/conversation that way. I don't like the light on me! I feel better as friends over tea swapping tales of survival.

I have much more to get out so I thank you for taking the time to read this... .I'm a bit sleepy and look around and see if there are any folks in need before I jump off for a bit!

with deep gratitude for the generosity you've shown here, & wishing you peace, pearl.

Pearl and WickerMan,
It's been so interesting reading your stories and thoughts.  Like you, I found very little material out there to help me, as the betrayer, through my journey.  I read a lot to of the material on helping my husband recover from my betrayal, but I think there's an unspoken idea that any pain that I feel as a betrayer is well deserved.  I found lots of advice on how to help my husband through his pain, how to make him feel safe, how to make restitution, how to eliminate my affair partner from my life.  What I couldn't find anything on was how to stop loving and longing for my affair partner (trust me, I googled that question in every way I could think of), how to live with the crushing weight of my guilt, how to not allow the restitution I desired to make to turn into the humiliating degradation it sometimes became. 

I'm 4 years out now.  I did what I could to save my marriage and, at least on my part, I am confident that my affair did not lead to the end of my marriage.  I do believe that my dBPDxh forgave me to the extent of his ability and the downfall of our marriage was set in motion by the patterns that had existed LONG before my affair. 

It took a long time for me to escape the haunting memories of the time I had with my affair partner.  For probably the first 6 months those memories were triggered by the smallest things and both the longing they inspired and the guilt that longing inspired were overwhelming.  Things were complicated by my inability to go fully NC with my affair partner.  He is a colleague and dBPDxh did not want to have my affair impact our financial situation to the degree that my finding a different job would have likely done ( red-flag ).  I changed roles within my company so contact was minimal, but even those sporadic interactions would leave me curled in a ball sobbing for the first 12-18 months. 

It's interesting to hear you talk about loving and being loved by two people at once.  That wasn't my experience.  I would say that it had been at least a year since I had loved or felt loved by my dBPDxh.  We were going through the motions, as we had most of our marriage, but I had reacted to some things dBPDxh did a year prior to my affair by "giving up".  I still met dBPDxh's physical, financial, and sexual needs, but I did it with my heart safely in a box and my expectations for anything in return strictly at nil.  I didn't want to hurt him, but I can't say that I loved him.  And I never really had much guilt for taking advantage of him because I can't think of a single loving act he did during the duration of my affair.  When I confessed my affair he was actually honest about how selfish he had become and seemed to genuinely regret his treatment of me... .but not enough to stop, as I found out soon enough.

It has taken me a long time, but I am able to talk with my closest friends about the good that came out of my affair.  They understand that I am not glad it happened and that I would do almost anything to go back in time and stop myself from making those choices.  They also understand that doesn't mean I can't recognize and embrace the good.  That relationship was the beginning of me seeing that I was lovable, not just nice to have around because I make a pretty comfortable and enjoyable life for those around me.  That relationship helped me understand what intimacy looked like.  For the first time I was with someone who was willing to know and be known by me.  I understood that I was worth pursuing.  And the sex!  I learned that someone could see my body with all its flaws and be pleased by it but not treat it just as an object of pleasure.  I learned what it was like to be with someone who cared about my pleasure and didn't just hope that whatever they did to reach climax pushed the right buttons for me.  And even the fallout from the affair has created good.  I am a more authentic and compassionate person.  I am more capable of recognizing and empathizing with shame and pain in others.  I understand what repentance and forgiveness really look like.  I am a safe person for people to be honest and broken with.  I know the strength it takes to rebuild a life and that I possess it. 

Wickerman, I admire your commitment to make things work with your wife.  Despite the outcome of my story, I firmly believe that a marriage survive and be made stronger and more beautiful after an affair.  I'm really glad to hear that your wife is putting forth effort, because it really does take two.  I know the loneliness of working to build your wife and marriage up yet still have feelings for another person that you don't have a space to express and work through, so I'm really glad you are opening up here. 

Pearl, I know you're still deciding if your marriage is reparable and if that's even what you want.  I think you are wise to keep the extent of your affair relationship from your husband, but I also know what keeping that secret can do to you and how it can impact the level of intimacy you can achieve with him.  I am hoping that your heart will find it's direction soon. 

BeagleGirl

Particularly on this board so many people have been cheated on by their BPD mates it is going to be a difficult topic.  ':)ream Come True', I strongly believe, cheated on me in our year together.  I marvel at the fact she lied so frequently -but was horrible at it!  I lie well and choose not to. 

Something I learned in China -write these things down on a piece of paper and burn it.  It is how the Chinese write notes to the dead.  There is an amazing catharsis in it.  ':)ream Come True' taught me this and I have written a few notes to my mom in this manner. --We will come back to this notion of 'I shut parts of my brain and heart down'.


Since we have betrayed our spouses some extreme behavior on their part is to be expected.  Bear with me... .and forgive my candor... .but... .You have to look at this from his perspective.  As a man you emasculated him, as a wife you betrayed him, and culturally you shamed him. (still with me here?)  This is not an excuse for his behavior, but an explanation.  I am sure you caught a lot more hell than I did -but my wife has said some things to me which made me question my ability and willingness to reconcile and rebuild.  I remember one evening I felt myself falling into 'diffuse physiological arousal' fight or flight.  She had been so incredibly hurtful my instinct was to either fire back or just walk away -it took my entire force of will to talk myself down.

I had to let the vitriol wash over me and pick out the message which was shrouded in rage -her message was 'I love you, but you really hurt me'. In 25 years I have never yelled at my wife and never called her a bad name.  We argue, but I never belittle her.  Cui Bono?  Why would I call my wife an idiot?  That would mean I married an idiot... .  I attempt active listening and try to pick out the real message -it is hard, but no one 'wins' in a fight.  I feel in a marriage either both people win or they both lose.

From what I have been able to garner a spouse cheating is emotionally more difficult than a death in the family.  People are 'supposed' to die -loved ones are not supposed to betray us.


You affair was a 'tentpole' event in an otherwise damaged relationship.  You are not a sociopath, you are not evil, you are a woman who was in pain and acted out.  You did not wake up one sunny morning in a skittles and beer marriage and think -Hey!  I think I will have an affair.  More likely you felt lonely, unloved, misunderstood and this tableaux made you susceptible to behaving in a way which was contrary to your moral compass.

If you choose to enter couple's counsel your therapist will, after a little bit of time, address the issues of the marriage which created the context of your affair.  This will be the hard part for your husband.  He will have to realize, come to terms with, and change his part in the train wreck that is your marriage. 

My wife has not said it, but I know she is beginning to understand why I left her.   She has had three major breakthroughs in the last few months which are slowly creating a divide between her (the woman I love) and her personality disorder.  OC(PD) has been a pall shrouding our lives for 25 years.  She will never say in so many words -I know why you left me and I don't need her to -what I need is forward progress.  I need us to be happy and with a lot of work I hope we can be happy together.

All of my friends, literally all of them, told me to run.  OC(PD) is not nearly as difficult to deal with as B(PD) [What I would not give to have no knowledge of either disorder!... .]  After 6 months into the relationship with my wife sex stopped and rage began.  She weaponized sex and actually got sadistic joy in withholding it (this she has admitted in so many words).  She could rage for days at a time -not even ':)ream Come True' could wake up raging.  I think my B(PD) lover would have blushed if she could have seen some of the OD(PD) fueled mayhem in my wife's younger years.  My point being friends do not have the hammer and tongs to get you through this --therapy... .

No one wants to go to therapy.  Pearlsw I leave every session with my shirt damp.  It is diabolically hard work if you do it correctly.  I come to each session with an agenda written out, I track the time to make sure we are on track.  I avoid digression and hardest of all I 'actively listen'.  When he speaks I clear my mind of thoughts, stop my inner dialogue and listen.  Once he is done speaking I spin up my inner dialogue and respond.  It is not an easy thing to truly listen -it is a skill and an important one.  Most people are so busy thinking about what they will say next they never truly listen.

Ok... .'I shut parts of my brain and heart down'  It sounds like you had to do this for self preservation.  I understand -but repression is bad debt owed to the loanshark of your subconscious --the longer you hold it the worse it gets.  It is precisely your statement above which leads me to continue to suggest therapy.  You have a lot on your plate.  You have a marriage with someone suffering from BPD and maybe bi-polar comorbidity, since we are not mental health care professionals we can use 'hot mess' as a layperson's diagnosis.  You had an affair and further you put so much of yourself into helping people on BPD Family.  What you give here comes at an emotional cost --once again you have a lot on your plate. 

Amen sister!  In my last round of work in China I worked 178 days straight with an average work week of 110 hours.  I ended up with a repetitive stress injury in my hip.  I can't run right now and it is killing me.  Running has always been my escape.  See if there is something you can do -walking, swimming, biking.  Get your body back in order.  It will help.

Living with the subculture of your husband will be a double edged sword, good and bad.  How much good and bad will change with the perspective on the marriage.  I found this when living in China -when things were good it was a great cultural experience -when things were bad the differences were taxing.  Living in a different culture -or two different cultures in your case is enormous.  It takes a lot of bravery, a lot of effort.  When I would go to the store I would have to ask people to read packages for me -I could not read at all.  So even going to buy yogurt was an 'adventure'.

It is a mess, a painful mess and not at all easy to sort out.  I have said over and over my experience, affair, divorce, reconciliation,  has been an incredible loss of innocence.  My blindness to how badly I felt in my marriage caused a repressive debt covered in layers of denial. 

Therapy :)

From what I read in 'State of Affairs' polyamorous relationships are becoming en vogue.  I simply cannot see how this would work.  Triads always break down into a dyad and someone is left out in the cold.  Simply watch three people converse -millennials... .ugh.

I think this is a vitally important observation -well done you!  Even in your affair you were not being selfish.  You are at a turning point in your life --considering divorce.  You need to find center and figure out what is best for you.  What does Pearl want?  What does Pearl need?  Perhaps even more frightening who is Pearl?

My affair was different it was selfish and I knew it.  When I saw ':)ream Come True' I was drawn to her.  I did not know what I wanted other than I had to speak with her.  Never had I felt such a compulsion -it wasn't her beauty.  I work with beauty daily (models, actresses etc).  It was a spark of life in her.  Once we began speaking I knew I was risking life as I knew it -and frankly didn't care.  With in the first 5 minutes speaking alone with her I told her I was married and my age.  The Chinese have a very tough time judging occidental age.  She told me my complete and utter honesty was something she had never experienced.  We fell in love -and tore each others hearts out... .  but I digress... .

If you choose to try it is possible to have a rebirth in your marriage.  From what I have read if both parties apply themselves there is about a 40% -50% chance of reconciling. This should be taken as both hope and a warning.  If you choose to go through all the counseling there is no guarantee your marriage will get better --but if you don't try then there is no chance at all. 

When I began on the path I am now traveling I told myself either we will fix our marriage or at least get the closure we both deserve after 25 years together.  To be honest I can't remember how long we have been married, we have been together 25 years.  We actually got married in an airport to save money on capital gains taxes from a home we were selling -our relationship has been a mess from the onset.  Life is messy.  We are literally trying to start over.  Dr. John Gottman (Marriage Clinic) talks about couples having a marriage map -good times they can reflect back upon when things are hard.  Our 'marriage map' is covered in land mines and barbed wire.

Ugh.  Be careful what you wish for.  Looking back as some of my posts I am afraid I am my own favorite subject... .



Sure I get it 'Schadenfreude'  -I was a German major :) ... .

"Everything is funny, as long as it's happening to somebody else." --Will Rogers

Joking of course -I figure we are due for a smile.

Please take care of yourself first.  You are clearly a thoughtful, empathetic and giving person, but even you have limits.  Make sure you take some quiet moments for yourself.

Wicker Man

@ BeagleGirl  I still get triggered by the oddest things.  I was speaking with my therapist yesterday about a song ':)ream Come True' and I would listen to.  I found it for us and,in my opinion, it so completely describes the BPD dynamic .  Even then, perhaps, somehow I knew we were on a path to destruction.  The song is called Great Escape -I heard it yesterday and wept openly.

I'll pull your arms tight behind you back
Use myself as weight
And wonder while you fade

She ultimately pushed me away violently and completely over a 7 day rage. I now believe my being away spiked her fear of abandonment, she lost emotional control and went into a rage cycle.


I am fortunate.  There was nearly no overlap intimately and the two women will never meet.  The year I spent with ':)ream Come True' was almost completely spent away from home. 

When ':)ream Come True' broke up with me I was here in the US finalizing divorce papers and preparing to sell one of our homes.  I was to have gone back 10 days later to buy a home with her. 

Since ending the affair I am shutting down the China market for my work -too painful to ever return.  I am trying to process the loss of her, her family, her country and her culture.  This has been a year of many losses.


This is a concern both my wife and I share.  Are we looking at our marriage as an LLC or a union of two people in love?  We have to keep a weather eye on this.  Security is great -but not at such a great cost.

I am sorry you had to go through this -but I have some understanding.  My wife and I had fallen into drinking too much.  She would pass out on the couch and I would spend the evening sending notes to China.  It was a very lonely time.  We were sexless and had fallen into what I called 'a comfortable slumber'.   

":)ream Come True" told me I was the first person she had been with where sex was not an obligation.  --Who knows if it was mirroring and hyperbole.  Irrelevant now anyway.

What has been difficult is resuming an intimate relationship with my wife.  We have 25 years of sexual bad history to overcome and personally I have my affair partners memory to contend with.  There was a warmth and passion with ':)ream Come True' I had never experienced.  Maybe mirroring -but it was profound. 

My wife does not care for children and I adore them.  ':)ream Come True' told me she wanted to have my child.  I took this as the deepest expression of love and was blinded to all else, once again perhaps mirroring -but it was profound. 

The day she told me this I walked around feeling like the ground was soft and mushy.  I was so shaken I literally felt I was walking on a cloud.  She was my Gaia. 

My wife has always loved me.  She told me 'You are my perfect man' -but she didn't know how to show me her love.  I knew intellectually I was loved, but didn't feel it.  We are currently working on this.  It will be a long road.  With OC(PD) she feel anger at herself constantly -all I see is anger and disappointment.  It wasn't me she was disappointed with, but herself.  We are now learning how to mitigate this and have a more openly loving relationship.

So far I cannot see any good which came out of my transgression.  My friends all have the typical response about leaving a person with BPD -you dodged a bullet. 

Well I did not dodge the bullet. The shot struck home I was hit me hard -it just was not a lethal injury.  I know I will never feel love like that again Dream Come True's love was love verging on psychosis -an impossible high.

Intellectually, I know I very likely made the right decision in leaving her -but emotionally it has taken a heavy toll.  Her family accepted me completely -I now believe they simply wanted her to be with someone safe.  Her grandparents accepted me hoping she would be cared for once they are gone.

She and I had planned to buy a home and move her grandparents in with us -such a lovely dream.  We would call her grandparents every evening and spend 30 minutes on the phone laughing --Usually at my terrible Chinese.  It was warm and wonderful.


Sex with passion and love is unfortunately all too rare.  I am naive, but the child in me rails against this with the ever present question 'why?'.  Why is it so hard for people to express love intimately during sex?  How can one make love and not care for the feelings of their partner?  Personally, empathy and the experience of the person I am with is the best part.

The brain is the most important sexual organ -people just don't get it... .ugh... .people... .  Touch the body to touch the mind, touch the mind to touch the soul.

The first night I spent with ':)ream Come True' we woke the next morning still holding hands.  It felt like she had always been there.

Who knows how much of what we experienced was new to her, mirroring or simply hyperbole -but for me it was unique, profound and haunting.

You have travelled a hard road and found enlightenment.  Growth is impossible without pain and it sounds like you have had an enormous amount of both.  I admire your strength and commitment to a life extraordinary -too few people are able to ask the hard questions of others and themselves and seek self betterment.

Esther Perel (she is worth reading) would agree with you... .  We have made a good start. It will take a life long commitment to overcome this last year.  Since there is a personality disorder in the mix it will also take a life time of management -they don't do away.  She is my wife OC(PD) and all, so I will do my best to give support where and when I can.


@BeagleGirl Thank you.  It is an emotional quagmire.  I have a wonderful therapist who challenges me weekly.  He asked me yesterday if I was certain I have made the right choice in leaving China and coming 'home'.  My sessions with him are excruciating and enlightening.  I am fortunate he treats several patients suffering from BPD and has an understanding of the dynamic from both sides of the equation. 

Thank you for joining the conversation!

Wicker Man

@Pearlsw I was thinking back through my posts these last few days and please take everything I say with a grain of salt.  I am not a healthcare professional, I am a middle aged man with a bit of anecdotal life experience. 

I was thinking about the Epimenides paradox... ."... .all the Cretans are liars"

I am not lying --but please do not assume I know what in the hell I am talking about.  I give advice... .share experience... .  However... .my background is a 25 year cold marriage and an affair.  --Maybe we need to find some Cretans... .  :)

I am happy to listen and give opinions --but remember to consider my words through the lens of having come from an empathetic, mildly depressed, emotionally bruised man in the midst of trying to sort himself out.


Wicker Man

Hi Wickerman and BG, 

Thank you both, it will take me many more writing sessions to get to all of the great stuff each of you shared here! I can’t thank you enough!

You know it’s funny when people look back on affairs tales of great sex probably predominant. I certainly have tales. But to be honest the best part was just seeing very short messages from him, knowing that in his very busy life he was thinking of me. A simple smiley face, or a good morning or good night was light years better than the sex.

The sex with him was the most unselfish sex I have ever experienced in my life. I took notes on him when I met him many years ago in our twenties when we were single and free and it is etched in my brain. He had such incredible strength and control. He could walk on his hands for goodness sakes, who does that? It might not sound sexy, but he could ride a unicycle and juggle! ahahahaha. It was so cool because the amount of strength and concentration that must take! And he was just funny! I mean, we could barely communicate when we first met…and the way he handled everything…I mean, we had a week together and he was ready to consider moving across the world just to be with me when we were finally able to talk again after he finished his months long trip - we were heading in different directions when we met on the street in front of the hotel we were both staying at in a foreign country, then changed plans and had an incredible, though imperfect time together. I felt so safe and protected by him though. He was a good guy. I could be with him, no sex, and be fine…just to see him trying to cheer me up…he saved my life really, both times. That is how I saw him…in one sense…it was all so complicated…

We saw each other for years secretly as friends with no sex. I finally started to break down when one time before we had to part he came to me and wrapped his giant body all around me because he just needed a hug. Here was this “Sex God” (As opposed to your Dream Girl) that I had idealized for years and simply wanted to be friends with, now in a sexless marriage. My dear friend with no intimacy or love…and…I could not hold myself anymore in the face of his pain and my own... .

I thought, though not my responsibility, I can give something to this. Months after that, after sexual/health threats from my SO I just thought, that’s it. My SO does not get to get away with everything - with total disrespect and emotional abuse of me and neglect, and insults and for what? I consider all his words, actions, and cr*p betrayal, he does not. I don’t care what he thinks on this point.

Well, at his most broken down moments he does recognize he destroyed us as we were…destroyed what we had. And after all he did, and not in a world of my own making, I pitched in and helped with the breakdown by taking my friends hand and asking for more out of my cr*ppy life. My intention was not to hurt him,  my SO, I just lost my fierce sense of loyalty that I’d had toward him. And I mean fierce. I had sacrificed and protected him and fought for him and I felt totally betrayed and disrespected, everything was dumped on me and I was treated like a total piece of garbage…all it took was this extra voice in my ear saying…”It’s your life. Do what you want.” and I was off on this path... .

I must admit, I may have already said this, some of the best times we’ve had (my SO and I) have been since this happened, but of course, there have also been the absolute worst of times. I marvel at my ability to still stand. I think I am just propped up by values inside of myself that likely make no sense for the situation I am in. That is what has always been hard with him. I am coming from a certain place in the world, applying all I know about myself to the situation and the values I have been carrying around my whole life and he brought his. I don’t see him as ethical, honest, trustworthy, fair minded, honorable, you name it. He has good points, but he is also corrupt, lies, and is short sighted... .I could go on. I lost a lot of respect for him over the years. He always said I was “better than him” and he’d still say that now on a good day. It is mind-blowing.

I ultimately don’t think I can live under his thumb…somewhere along the way this year I…I mean I really offered all I could to save and protect him in a divorce even, out of a desire to salvage some honor for myself, but…I will ultimately let the courts decide. I am not going to go to heroic efforts to protect him anymore if we do split. I worked very sincerely to stay together to have my life totally shattered by him. And for what? I came to him with innocence and honesty and faithfulness and hope and lots and lots of love and he turned love into hate right before my eyes in every way he could cook up.

With my friend/lover, the next to last visit, it felt like we were cursed. His back went out, he was miserable, embarrassed, I was happy to help him as he’d helped me out when were much younger and travelling together. But again, as I say, to eat a simple snack with him, to see him worry about me when I didn’t come back from an errand as fast as I expected…the tiniest of things were the best parts of the memories. Even just the last looks we gave each other as I headed toward the train and he in another direction, those last looks of “Why can’t we be together?” that was the beauty of it. But it was mostly pain. I was in pain on both sides, completely. Every moment with each of them was painful for me, with small bits of pleasure/relief.

He is great, my friend/lover, but he is not the best man I’ve ever met actually. I have another great love that got away too. I am feeling a little doomed, but I guess…you have to either be brave with this stuff or sit on the bench. I know one day I will find a way to be brave again, I am just not there yet.

with much gratitude, pearl.

I miss her smile.  I complimented her on her smile once and she said 'I am glad you like it -it is yours you made it.  Before I met you I never smiled.  I miss her laugh.  Without a smile and a laugh sex is meaningless.  I am afraid I understand you feeling of loss completely.

 
In my opinion the single best attribute a friend can have is a sense of humor.

My affair echos this, however I was the one doing the saving. We were content to just hold each other, spend countless hours listening to music or watching movies.  Sharing our different experiences with art.  For me, in the moment, it seemed simple.  Drop everything and be with this person.  As Lucky Jim says so often 'not built to last'.  Looking back I now see she had initially tried to withhold sex as a bid for control -I was just so happy to be with her I didn't care and she gave up.  This was when she told me sex didn't feel like an obligation with me -I told her that was fine I didn't look at it as an obligation with her either... .  God I must have confused this poor girl... .

Life and love are full of irony sometimes approaching tragedy.

When I decided to proceed with my affair it was a cool decision rather than a hot one.  In the moment I no longer cared to go back to the marriage as I had known it.  I was fortunate when my wife asked me to consider reconciliation she had made some great strides in therapy and I saw hope.  For the first time I saw there was some movement and change in her outlook on life -her life and ours.  The stars must have aligned because her asking me to consider returning coincided with my ending my engagement with ':)ream Come True'.  It was a lucky turn of events.

Once again, I completely understand.  I wish I didn't, but I do.  It is a strange realization.  To have one's feelings of what is right and wrong change -morally, emotionally, and psychologically. 

Dear Pearl you have been through so much.  You are still standing; be proud of your resilience and determination.  You seem to be confronting these issues and it really is the first step toward resolution and salvation.

If you do decide to try to reconcile you will have a very hard road ahead of you.  For him to regain your respect, your trust and for you to like him again would be incredibly difficult.

No. You cannot and should not.  This is to say, from what I am reading, you (you plural) need to change things or move on.  You describe a marriage which is functioning badly and is hurtful for you -this is neither healthy nor sustainable.

When my wife and I were going to divorce I drew up an offer -it was likely far more than it might have been had we gone to court. 

':)ream Come True' was furious -in fact this may have been one of her triggers which caused the rage and ending our engagement.  So incredibly  ironic --money of all things.  I was ready to walk away from houses, cars, and plenty of money to be with her.  I was preparing to help her grandparents through elder care -Dream Come True had no idea what this meant.  Having helped my mom through her final battle with cancer I knew what I was offering.  Hell! I was already considering how to ensure her retirement and college for a child we never had.  So incredibly ironic.  I have said it before and I will say it again... .Ugh!  people... .

If you decide on the dissolution of your marriage, in my opinion, at that point it becomes a business transaction.  The corporation of your marriage has failed and the assets need to be reallocated --just business.  It should not be done with spite or malice -that will only make the lawyers rich.  Mediation can save a lot of money -iff (if and only if) both parties are being honest and reasonable.  If they are not mediation will fail and lawyers become necessary. 

I recently had two friends in a divorce attempt and fail in mediation -I kept telling him to stop being greedy.  He couldn't... .  It cost them 20% of their assets once the dust settled.  The money was wasted because he had made it a principle issue -he fell victim to his spite and malice. 

All of this is still within you.  We learn and grow though experience.  In the right tableaux you will find your innocence, honesty and faithfulness again.

On December 7th as I walked away from her I told her I will see you in two weeks.  We will never meet again.  I can't remember what her voice sounds like now.  Her laugh.  All fading.  I am so sorry for your loss and by God I wish I didn't understand.  Our situations are reversed you are in the throws of leaving someone suffering from Borderline personality disorder and I am returning from one -but your sense of loss resonates loud and clear.

Pearl I re-ordered and edited your statement together to show you. You are not doomed.  You attract good men.  There are good people out there.

In my opinion you are being brave.  You are recognizing a problem and preparing to solve it one way or another.  It took me 25 years to begin to address the most important relationship in my life.  You are way ahead of the game :)



Wicker Man

I read here and there a bit... .But I can't take all the posts and answer carefully.

Even on TV when I face infidelity, it opens a can can of worms, and it's painful.

See, I ended up with my affair partner. I tried to end my marriage in its own right, because it was headed that way before meeting this new woman. But it got all confused when I fell in love, of course, and then I had to second guess all my thoughts and feelings. I broke up with both of them, and after a while I decided to not let this new woman go, she felt as my soulmate at the time.

For me, the moment my ex was out of the picture, and I could ask the new woman to be my girlfriend, she stopped understanding me, trusting me, and treating me right, and she started hating all things romantic alltogether. Before that, it seemed she could read my mind, she would have the same ideas and thoughts I had. But as she stopped believing me, she feels I'm a stranger. (If she doesn't believe who I am, the person remaining is not me, so it's impossible to know me).

Well, to the point, I'm not only the betrayer, but the leaver. I never came back to fix the pain I caused to my ex-wife. So the guilt is different. Even as I was a great husband for all our marriage, and she'd been labeled as abuser by my therapist. In my mind, due to how things ended, I'm the bad guy. I'm unforgivable. I have forgiven and forgotten the bad things from my ex, and what survives in my mind, is that I paid all the years of good things, of friendship and companionship, and good moments... .I paid them with abandonment.

As my new GF thought (wrongly) for years that I was seeing my ex, and obsessed about her, I never processed those guilty feelings properly. She talks about my ex with great contempt and disgust, when she has never met her. And to me is trashtalking about the "victim". The fact that I don't have rage and resentment towards my ex, must have meant to her that I was still in love with her (I know, jealousy doesn't have to make sense, and I get the insecurity).

The fact that I cheated once in my life, doesn't let me defend myself: "I'm an honest person!". You know? I think you would battle that with your spouses too. And with yourselves.

It seems that reading this posts, and taking part properly, it could be therapeutic. But it still feels like too much to tackle right now.

I do want to offer you all my understanding and support, and I wish you all the healing that you want.   

JoeBPD,
I'm so glad you joined the conversation.  I can understand if all of this may be more than you want to tackle now, but I hope you stick around and maybe start to wrestle with a few things.

I highlighted the comments that stuck out to me in your post. 

I definitely understand the discomfort of having any reference to infidelity on TV, in movies, etc.  I will say that it's gotten easier as I have gained some distance from my affair, but I think I will always be hypersensitive to it.

I can also understand the shift you have seen in your affair partner/girlfriend.  I'm sure you know the saying "If s/he'll cheat with you, s/he'll cheat on you."  I think that fear is one key reason that relationships with affair partners have such a low success rate.  That said, it does not give her the right to mistreat you, nor does it condemn you to stay in a relationship that is not all it could be.  Have you asked your gf to work through this lack of trust?

As far as your relationship with your ex-wife goes, I think I can understand the guilt that would come from not having at least attempted to "make it right".  I know that the knowledge that I did all I could to repair my marriage has contributed greatly to my ability to reconcile myself to my divorce.  The option of working to fix your marriage may not be open to you, but I think that there are other ways that you can achieve that closure and freedom. 

The closest comparison I can make from my own experience is what I have done to try to "make right" the damage I did to my affair partner's wife.  I can't go back in time and "unsleep with" her husband.  Ultimately, that's the only way to really "make things right".  I owe her a debt of restitution that I can never repay, and to attempt to do so would cause her more pain.  I live with that debt every day.  The only action I have taken that she is aware of is to write her a letter of apology.  I put weeks of thought into that letter and I did not send it until it had been reviewed and approved by a friend of mine whose husband had cheated on her.  I wanted to make sure that I did no more damage in an attempt to release myself from guilt.  That letter contained a brief but clear acknowledgement of the wrong I had done, an apology, a list of things I was doing to ensure she need not fear that I would do anything more to cause her pain, and an offer to do anything she felt would help her healing.  She never responded, and I will probably never know if she even read the letter.  I can only trust that the best restitution I can make is to live a life that will never cause that kind of pain again. 

So that brings me to your comment about not being able to say that you are an honest person and the way that having an affair can become a part of your core identity. 

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my affair partner where I told him the words I was trying on for size; adulteress, homewrecker, whore, mistress, the other woman, and the like.  I would say that I probably wore those words for over a year after I left my affair.  They were the garment I wore to express the shame I bore in the presence of my husband.  They were the shield I held between me and my affair partner.  They were the ball and chain of my guilt towards his wife that I kept as my constant reminder.  I knew that I had not been coerced or tricked into having an affair.  I had chosen.  I knew that nothing my husband had done warranted my betrayal.  I had chosen.  So who must I be if I could choose that?

The answer that I've come to over the past 4 years is that I am BeagleGirl.  My affair is a part of the journey that has shaped who I am, but it does not define me.  My affair uncovered parts of myself that I wanted to deny were there, but that has allowed me (forced me) to deal with them honestly.  My affair was both an outcome of who I was and out of character for who I was and am.  It's hard to get to a place where those ideas can coexist.  It requires an acknowledgment that I was and am still capable of incredible self deception and selfishness, but I am also capable of incredible love and self-sacrifice.  It requires that I understand that I am responsible for choosing to have an affair and equally responsible for never doing so again.  I am an honest person, but I chose to lie.  I am a faithful person, but I chose to break my vows.  I am a loving person, but I chose to hurt the innocent.  I understand why I made those choices and am working diligently to ensure I never make them again. 

I was often a proud and self-righteous person before I was an adulteress.  I believe that love is killed by both pride and shame.  So I'm recovering from both.  I am working to shed both the illusion of perfection and the garment of shame that covered up who I am.  I strive for an authentic life that allows me to shine a light on the darkness in me.  Hopefully I'll be able to chase out that darkness, but if in the meantime I will learn not to allow the fear of it to control me. 

I hope to find a partner who is equally aware of my flawed nature and his own.  I think that the very nature of our relationship bonded my affair partner and me in that way.  We both knew that what we were doing was wrong.  We both knew we were betrayers and yet we could love each other.  I could love him even though I knew what he was doing to his wife, so he was free to show me other aspects of his darkness.  I did the same.  He knew more of me than anyone ever had, and yet he still loved me.  Who knows if that would have lasted, but it did give me courage to trust others when I left the affair.  That trust wasn't always well placed, BUT I did find out that there are people who can know the deepest darkest parts of me and love me.  My two closest friendships came out of that time.  I would have called us friends before, but now I know what friendship really is. 

Back to you, JoeBPD, (it's so very easy to get to talking about myself  :) I am going to give you a piece of advice that I don't know if I would have been ready to hear or been able to act upon when I was leaving my affair.  You are never going to be able to fix/find/maintain a relationship with someone else if you are not actively working on understanding, owning, and shaping who you are.  Making amends can be a part of that, but living under a pile of guilt can't.  It's also really hard for someone to trust us if we don't trust ourselves.  And... .this is a big one... .a relationship where one member is acting out of fear, guilt, and obligation does no one any good, regardless of whether the FOG is being imposed or self-generated. 

I really do hope that you continue to share.  It is incredibly helpful to share this aspect of my life with people who have a better understanding of what I've been through/am going through.  Both the similarities and differences in our stories have helped me understand myself better.

BeagleGirl

@Joe It sounds like our experiences are similar.  The time tables are a bit different, but the idea is the same.  I filed for divorce and then proposed to my lover as the divorce was in processing.  My state has a fairly long cool off period.  This is America... .So you can get a gun quickly, but a divorce takes quite a bit of time... .  Ugh.

It must be awful for infidelity on the media to be a trigger for you.  I have been rewatching the Sopranos -Don't look!  There are several episodes showing infidelity with someone suffering from BPD -I couldn't believe it.  Just what I needed to see... .  What it worse they did a pretty damn good job of it too.  Personally my triggers, beyond her birthday and the day we were engaged have been mostly music and movies we watched when we were together.  The pain comes back in waves.

I felt the same soulful connection to my ex.  When I met her family there was also an instant connection.  Upon first meeting her grandmother she and I would walk hand in hand.  Her gandmother's hand felt just like mine had.  It took me right back to being a little boy walking hand in hand with my mom's mom.  I was immediately adopted as an uncle figure to her little brother and was helping him with his English homework nearly every evening.  --It was a warm and wonderful time.  I suppose here we would call it enmeshment -to me it felt like becoming a member of the family.  When we parted the first time her grandmother gave me a 'red envelope' (welcome to the family money) -I thanked her and gave it to my fiancé who then handed it back to her.  We all had a wonderful laugh.
My ex began suffering from 'retroactive jealousy' as well.  Not toward my wife, but from a previous girl friend.  Someone who had been out of my life for a very long time, but my ex's jealousy consumed her.  I had experienced the same retroactive jealousy from my wife -I ended up missing a lot of 'red flags' because I had experienced rage over this issue in the past.  I had done a lot of reading into the phenomenon and had supposed my ex's rage was solely caused by this.  As I have said before I had forgotten about BPD -having not studies psychology since college.  It wasn't until after our relationship ended that I began to guess she suffers from BPD.  She had been (in my opinion) misdiagnosed as schizophrenic and bipolar -having spent a year 'observing' her behavior I now firmly believe she is borderline.  Ironic I would have given anything to have had her merely be schizophrenic... . 

Joe 'betrayer', 'leaver'... .Add 'human' to the list.  You did the best you could at the time.  Might you have done things differently in hindsight?  Sure.  As would I.  What I wouldn't give to be able to go back in time and undo what I have done, unsee the things I have seen, and unfeel (Hey! I just made up a word... .) what I have felt.  We cannot. 

All we can try to do is learn from our experiences and grow from them. 
I had been the 'perfect' husband for years.  Hard working in and out of the home.  Hell... .When my wife arrives home from work I take her briefcase and hand her a martini  --dinner is on the stove.  When I am not working I am Donna Reed (showing my age... .) at home... .  Ok... .I don't wear a dress or pearls -but you get the idea.  In all of this perfect husbanding 'if I care for you the way I want to be loved -then you will love me that way too' I was dying inside.  I felt unloved.  If the monkey dances hard enough everything will get better... .25 years slid by.

My wife will never say it in so many words, but she is coming to realize why I left her.  Yes... .I acted out terribly having had an affair -but I am human.  I don't always like being human -but I am fallible.  I also have the ability to learn from my mistakes -the upside of being human.

In whose eyes are you unforgivable?  It must be your own.  Over 33% of people in marriages admit to having had an affair!  I am not saying this is right, but it is unfortunately common nearly to the point of banality.  What we did as 'cheaters' is bad, but not unforgivable.  Is it hurtful to ourselves and the ones we love?  Yep.  Is it hard to reconcile our view of ourselves afterward?  Yep.  Is is extraordinary? No.  I have spent my entire life attempting to be extraordinary and it turns out I am still just human. 

Joe find a way toward self forgiveness.  Find your own redemption and salvation.  For me that has been through therapy, reading and journaling. 

This must be human nature.  I had to journal a list of my ex's behaviors, both good and bad in an attempt to exorcise her from my mind.  She is still very slow in leaving my heart.  I had to separate her from her family in my mind.  I had not gotten engaged to her family, but to her.  As I have read often here with relationships involving borderline traits the highs are very high.  For me her bordering on psychosis was actually not completely a negative thing -it made her an incredibly sensitive artist.

I say this because you will drive yourself mad if you only remember the good and not the entire picture.  In my opinion no one has an affair because they are happy in their marriage.  An affair is a tentpole event in a larger context of a relationship.  My wife and I are now beginning to explore this in therapy -building a better stronger 'affair proof' marriage.  I know I will not allow myself to have another affair --it was frankly too painful.

Again --I am a big fan of journalling and therapy.  Ok... .I don't like therapy, but it is necessary for me.  It is hard work.

So by this logic if you tell a single lie then everything said after that single lie is suspect?  Life is a contact sport and sometimes we get a bit beaten and bloodied, but we must continue on as best we can.

Yes --I was a cheat, betrayer, a liar.  What I did could be seen as monstrous, even diabolical.  I am also human and I choose to no longer allow myself those behaviors --I am learning and growing. 

Life must be seen in shades of grey! As a point of observation people suffering from borderline personality disorder don't seem to see shades of grey and this forces many of us to leave them.  As relatively health neurotics we must not fall into binary thinking.

Personally, contributing here on BPD Family is a form of live journalling and it seems to offer a similar catharsis.  Writing forces one to process and articulate one's thoughts and emotions.  Believe me Joe I represent a 'coping model' certainly not the 'super man model' --but I am doing the best I can each day with what I have.

Wicker Man

@BeagleGirl --Well said... .  I like your post better than mine... .:)

I've been thinking about what WickerMan said here this morning, especially in the context of how my view of myself and the way the world should work got distorted in the aftermath of my affair. 

In the months and years after my affair my dBPDxh never yelled at me.  He never yelled.  But he did degrade me sexually and use the pain of my betrayal to excuse irresponsible, harmful, and eventually abusive behavior.  I understood these actions on his part - as WickerMan says, they were easily explained.  I understood them, endured them, and forgave them.  Where I think I erred is that I believed that I DESERVED them.  Now I would say that a world view that would say that I deserved his treatment of me because of my affair would also say that he deserved my betrayal of our marriage because of his previous treatment of me. Like you, WickerMan, I was the "perfect wife" for many years while he consistently behaved selfishly and irresponsibly in ways that hurt me very deeply.  That made my affair "understandable", even to my friend who had suffered the pain of having her husband betray her.  But it didn't make my affair justifiable. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". 

I don't believe that anyone deserves to be treated with hate and intent to harm.  I don't believe that a relationship can survive in an environment where either of both believe they have the right to punish the other.  That doesn't mean that I did not deserve to face the consequences of my actions.  I deserved to lose the trust of my husband and, if he was not willing/able to try to extend it any longer, my relationship with him.  I deserved to see his raw pain, because I had caused it.  I deserved to fear an encounter with my affair partner's wife and her pain.  I deserved to lose time with my children, marital assets, and the marriage that I had betrayed.  I did not deserve to be treated as a slave to my husband's feelings, an object to satisfy his desires in whatever form they would take, or a "fixer", cleaning up any messes he made.  I endured that behavior for 2.5 years, until it became clear that he felt justified in this behavior and therefore I had no hope that it would change.  I won't take any actions to "punish" him for his actions.  I desire his well being, despite continued hurtful behavior on his part.  That doesn't mean I have to remain in relationship with him.  I choose to separate myself from him to whatever extent is possible.  In some ways that means we both "lost", but I hope that it leaves us both open to "win" in another relationship.

Any perceived wisdom I have is purely a consequence of my age.  I am 42, and as any nerd will tell you, 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything is 42.  I'm really screwed when my next birthday hits.   :)

I am sorry to hear you endured so much pain.  It is all to easy to feel guilt and through this guilt feel we are due -we deserve to be punished.  I have apologized to my wife and in couple's therapy offered full disclosure without making it a confession. 

There is a danger in looking for absolution through confession and inadvertently hurting one's spouse further.  Disclosure is a delicate process, in my opinion.  I offered as much information as my wife needed without being any more hurtful that I had to be. 

She has only slid into being punitive a few times.  The first time she evoked enough anger in me I had to take a deep breath to avoid a fight / flight response.  I remained quiet and continued to listen -it was a herculean effort.  She actually apologized the next morning -it was a pretty rough evening.

The subsequent two episodes I was able to say -the conversation is become unconstructive we should take a break and pick this up in 20 minutes.  It isn't easy -but I feel there would be no sense in me firing back.  I do not think I have ever 'fired for effect' toward my wife.  I believe I can honestly say I have never said anything with the intent to do her harm -I am doing my best to keep it this way.


This was the point I was attempting to make to Joe --you did a better job of it.  A woman's deft touch versus my overly direct ham fisted male modality of discourse... .

I am guessing Hammurabi would have made an awful husband. 

In a perfect world no.  I am afraid this is all too often the human dynamic.  I refuse to live in this manner --Ultimately I think this is the crux of our discussion in this thread.  We should all strive for a loving and nurturing relationship  -care and reciprocity.

I agree we have to take responsibility for our actions. Understand the context, accept, understand and grow from our life experiences.  This is where we are different from people suffering from personality disorders, we are more easily able to understand how our actions effect those around us. 

I have nothing but pity for my ex.  I am as certain as I can be she suffers from borderline personality disorder.  She has a beautiful soul, but lives in an incredibly dark world full of pain and fear.  I cannot see a happy ending to her existence.  It was ultimately my compassion for her which lead me to begin posting on BPD Family.  She treated me poorly, but in her way loved me dearly.  I have no ill will toward her -we both did the best we could. 

I have often wished I could find it within myself to be angry with her -I cannot.  Anger would be a quick fix to quench the longing I still feel of the dream we lost.  'Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve'. 

I feel in pushing me away, I believe, she lost her best chance at a nurturing relationship --however I could not allow myself to very likely be consumed.  It appeared she was making progress, but from what I have read about BPD she very likely would have become 'tolerant' to my love and the curative effects would have wained.  Such a tragic disorder.

As human beings we must introspect, learn and grow from our life experiences.  The good and the bad.  We must accept our fallibility and love ourselves. 

We must learn to say 'I' and mean it with the full weight and understanding such a bold statement implies.


Wicker Man

PS I helped an elderly woman with her groceries a few moments ago... .She said 'You are such a gentleman'  I answered to myself... .'That depends upon whom you ask'

"It takes Deep Thought 7½ million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42"

43! You will be in the 'prime' of your life. 

... .and yes -- I know where my towel is.

If I were not so big I would have never had my lunch money... .


Wicker Man

I         that!  Now I am actually looking forward to my next birthday.

And I'm still chuckling about Hammurabi being a bad husband.

Oh good!  It just occurred to me on the off chance you didn't know what prime numbers were you might have taken my remark wrong.  This has been a year of over thinking things on my part. 

I'll be prime again next year at 53.  My next birthday will be better than the last.  Dream Come True was raging on my birthday, forgot the date and actually broke off our engagement.  ugh... .people... .



Wicker Man

Hi all,

Again, a lot to talk about here! I’m sure we’ll have to do a second thread as we’re rapidly approaching 6 pages! I like how this has become a group of us sitting around in chairs, facing each other, talking and sharing and not just a spotlight on me! :) I hate spotlights on me!

I think one of the things that made my situation particularly hard is my friend and I…we actually didn’t see each other in person a lot. We wrote. Or rather, I wrote, he read, and I daydreamed. So, he was in places I could not avoid once it ended - my computer and everywhere I daydreamed! I did a lot of daydreaming in those times. Rather than take up drinking, sometimes I kinda wish I had just done that and only hurt myself, or find some other escape from my pain, I could just call him up in my thoughts, replay the movies of us in my head and just escape the rest of my often miserable life.

So, he was in the clouds, in the flowers I’d see while walking to work, the bunnies I'd see on my bike rides, heck, even in a wrapper for a type of mint that stayed on the same spot on the ground for years that I would pass on my walks that reminded me of him. I never wanted to pick it up, the wrapper,  because seeing it there was a reminder of him, made me feel less alone. (It was a type of mint he had on him when we traveled together years ago when were young.) Pretty sad how I needed that as a form of happiness in life…that that piece of trash on the ground was one of the happiest things in my life.

It made it hard not to want to contact him. I really struggled with that, especially because I was still not sure, and am still not sure, this relationship is off or on…That is the crux of the problem for me and why this, for me, is more about a psychological break for me…I dunno. Being told we’re together, we’re not, we’re together, we’re not made my brain malfunction. I’m scared I don’t know how to pin this down. I can’t in the long run remain with someone who does this, no matter how nice a white phase might be. And the white phases aren’t that great either really because it is just a lull before another wave of degradation, mistreatment, and pain.

So anyway, after it happened I let myself miss him a little, my friend, but only when alone, and not much then either because I was afraid of my own thoughts due to the way my SO invaded my privacy (more on this later). If a smile ever came over my face at the wrong time, and I didn’t have a “good explanation” for it I’d catch hell for it.

Oh, I am reminded of one times I saw him, during the 9 mo.’s, and how I just doubled over in pain while driving when a song came on that reminded me of a night we were together. “Let me photograph you in this light incase it is the last time…” the lyrics go. It was never sure I’d ever see him again or these were our few hours and all we’d ever have…and it was all we had. I paid dearly for those few hours…but honestly…I’d gladly give up the rest of my life for just a few truly happy hours with someone who loved me like he did, made me so happy.

We were so shy and tentative with each other. Neither of us knowing what to do…and the sadness that hung over our meetings…I remember he drove me to romantic spot, we talked a bit as it started to lightly snow outside, we got out of the car to see the view of the city and he wrapped his arms around me from behind and gave me a brief hug, then turned me around, after telling me some nice stories about his city, and then asked to take a picture of me. That moment, to see him want to hold on to a small piece of me too…Oh that view, and to be that close to happiness, for just a brief time. It was such a beautiful night…despite it happening at the wrong time in my life…

I still think of him in some of these spots I walk by, though the pain of attachment is mostly gone now. I hoped if I could wait it out it would fade and hurt me less, and it mercifully does. For awhile I carried a deep dream he’d be back at some later point in my life when his kids are grown and he’s free, in his mind, to make other choices. I think in some ways just that small hope consoled me from the abject pain of my life post him, but I have nearly given that up now…Honestly, him as a good memory in my life, that was all I really wanted. Not a tainted sad memory. I wish we had not found each other again because he was much more valuable to me as a purely good memory in life (from our 20s). That is one of the biggest parts of the loss, to have lost this pure, dear memory by having it tainted by all the troubles and pain of the present era of my life.

thanks, pearl.

Hi all, reading this thread with such a lovely flow, and it's meaningful to me that you all are very free to express your innermost selves. Very soulful.

I'm sorry Pearlsw that you have gone through such torment. And Wicker and Beaglegirl too. I've never had an affair but was sorely tempted toward the end of my marriage, so deep was my unhappiness. I'd awaken every morning thinking, "Why do I not drive off a cliff today? There must be a good reason but none comes to mind." I left him instead, who knows that may have left more scars than if I'd stepped out.

This comment especially stood out for me:


I think many of us had moments like this with bpex, me among them. But for me that moment has passed, and I yearn more for, and am in fact receiving, the gift of friends who connect with me for who I am, can talk things out and be present for both the quotidian and the deeper emotions. People who are steadfast. Maybe I'll feel this longing again. Feelings are ever shifting, and that very deep deep longing I associate with longing for union with the divine. For now the calm is welcome, another passage on the way to union.

But I hesitated to post here, because by no means would I want to steer this conversation in another direction than it's been, a raw and unedited recitation of the feelings, dreams and deepest wishes of our heart. It's beautiful. Brings to mind... .

Psalm 77:6: "I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search."

And Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living."

And one of my favorite quotes... .the Gospel of Thomas says, “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.”

This whole post strikes me as a marvelous manifestation of this outlook. It's beautiful.

Pearlsw You have started this robust conversation and I would ask that you let the light shine on you.  When you being a new thread please consider setting our agenda.  Let us know where you would like to take this conversation. 

My race is run and the die is cast.  I have a firm idea of where I am heading in my relationship and how to get there.  --I would ask you to consider the question what do you want and need from this thread?

"Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire" -Churchill

The affair in the modern era.  I remember like it was yesterday waking up each morning to see what she had sent me.  I would write her loving letters daily.  There is an amazing seduction in the anticipation. 

Now I check my phone and continue to be proud of her for not contacting me -I should imagine it is excruciation for her.

There are no answers to be found in a bottle.  I am of Irish heritage and I have seen all too well what actually lies in the bottle of a whisky bottle -it killed my grandmother, 2 great uncles, an aunt and ultimately my father succumbed.  I keep a weather eye on my drinking.

You seem to be a marvelously sensitive woman and it would be a tragedy to drown yourself in that drug.  Like any drug you become tolerant and slowly start chasing it --more and more to get the release.

Once again here I am the 'coping model'  Since returning home I am drinking a bit too much again.  It was a habit, I believe, which began in  response to my wife's OC(PD) --alcohol was the only way for her to stop the intensity of her disorder.  Her drinking was one of the things which made me want to bolt.  I was drinking too, but never to the level she had been.  We are working on it currently. 

While I was with ':)ream Come True' we had completely stopped drinking.  She could literally forget about our relationship when she drank -borderlines seem to have issues with impulse control -she could not stop drinking once she started.   One of her suicide attempts was drinking herself to death and she nearly succeeded.  The few times I believe she cheated on us alcohol was involved.  BPD and alcohol seems to be a very bad combination.


Pearlsw there is no doubt in my mind your marriage cannot continue in its present incarnation.  From what you have written the decision seems to be whether or not you are willing to spend the time and herculean effort to try to change it.  Therapy is not magic -it simply allows us to examine what is within. 

Couple's counseling gives both parties in a damaged marriage a safe place to discuss topics too loaded to address on their own. 

E.g. disclosing my affair had to be done with the moderation of a couple's counselor.  When my wife would start to shut down or her rage would spin up the therapist would ease the throttle down on the conversation and bring it back to something constructive. 

I spent nearly 100 hours preparing for this disclosure balancing the information, vetting it and distilling it.  As I mentioned earlier, it could not be 'my confession'. The disclosure had to be a throughal account of the events which transpired.  The goal was my wife's understanding, not my absolution.  I give this merely as an example. 

I am not implying you need to say any more or less about your affair to your husband -but there are plenty of other highly loaded issues for the two of you to discuss from what I understand about your marriage.

It is statements like this which reinforce my believe something has to change.  Dissolution or reconciliation, but change.

Pearlsw this is heart rending and unfortunately I know the feeling precisely.  I am a photographer of sorts by trade and there are few songs which will bring me to tears.  I took photos of her which I am hoping I will be strong enough to never see again and songs which will never be the same.  I archived the photos but could not bring myself to destroy them.  There is one in particular I took of her sleeping while we were in HongKong it is a lovely portrait and she looks completely at peace.

There is love in the world.

'We don't find love by chasing after it; we simply open our hearts and find it within us'  --Charlotte Kasl

As beautiful as your time with him had been it is, in my opinion, important to focus on yourself in the here and now.  You have so many conflicting emotions and you are being pulled in so many directions it will be a tall order -but try to find your center.  A quiet place and think about what is best for you. --let the spotlight shine on you.

Pearlsw I would like to reiterate what I said to Joe -You are human and thus fallible.  We do the best we can in each moment.  Accept your past and focus on the present. 

I do this will limited success... .  Day by day I am getting stronger and the world seems a little less grey.

Wicker Man

Pearl,
I'm going to second WickerMan's encouragement to start to ask yourself what you want and need as you move forward.  It is entirely acceptable to stand at the edge of the unknown and turn and look at what is behind you.  I believe that you started this processing and grieving with a purpose that you may not even have acknowledged at the time, but I think it may be time for you to start asking "I am letting go of some things, leaving my hands empty and ready to grasp... .what?"

That said, know that we aren't going to sneak up behind you and push you over the edge or abandon you if we feel like you're camping out in one place too long.  This is your journey and we are honored to be companions on this journey.

BG

Hey BG,

Thanks very much! Thanks all! Wickerman and spacecadet too! (Still catching up on replies here)  I think part of what I wanted was just to turn on shut down parts of my brain again to have a look and see what's what. I notice I am a lot more emotionally numb than I realized. This is something I am observing and mulling over a response to for myself. I like to work with myself to fix me or let me be.

The downside of talking about this stuff is it does bring up a wee bit of longing for my friend. After all, it occurred to me many times along the way, that all I had to do to end that part of the pain is leave my SO and then we would be free to be in contact again if we both wanted, as friends or as more. For various reasons, I did not choose that route. I put myself on some kind of path to "redemption" and wanting to lead an honest, singular life, but I know that this relationship has significant issues, and I am grappling with those on my own and sometimes here.

To be honest, I've done what I can, but the therapy route is not super appealing for me in life anymore. I know people like to recommend therapy for all manner of things, and I think it can be helpful, but I've personally never found sitting in a room with a stranger (who makes me feel like a human/cultural oddity) and airing my thoughts (I'm articulate and can see myself clearly) that helpful when compared to talking to friends, or turning to myself, and simply getting on in life. I am not as emotional as my SO and his emotions are overwhelming at times because he cannot manage them. I have gotten emotional at times too, but I can manage mine as needed. I can be supportive, but I am not going to do his emotional work in life.

I can see my thoughts clearly (eventually if not right off the bat) and know that basically the best things for me in life are exercise, having a few good friends, meditation and looking at/listening to my own thoughts. And it's free. I am amazingly healthy I think, though I see the parts of my brain that do break down at times, the thought patterns that make life harder at times. I am insightful and resilient and that has taken me far.

To be honest, I am not sure I have enough respect or trust for him after all that has happened in order to save this the "proper way" or better, the way that is working for you. I do believe this relationship could go on and on for a long time if I keep showing up for it, but nothing will get better until the fundamental flaw is put to an end - the break up threats. It is the fundamental psychological damage of this that led to the problem. I am clear on that and insist upon it unwaveringly. I was/am being emotionally abused and it was/is too much for me. Even he agrees to that stipulation. I cannot continue on with such emotional abuse, that is the hardest part, wanting it to work on some fundamental level and knowing it is unlikely to because he has so much trouble controlling himself. He insists he'll stop doing it, but he hasn't so far. I believe he has multiple mental health issues, and the health system isn't likely to help us. (Geez, it's taken him 5 fruitless years to figure out and treat his back pain, and we can't even get that sorted out entirely.)

I would prefer he recover and heal separately from me in terms of his feelings regarding me and my friend. I have done what I can and cannot do more with someone who is so extreme at times. I will not revisit the level of emotional explosions I dealt with for the last year and a half, they have damaged my health and I cannot heal his wounds on this. I need peace and calm more than emotional volcanic eruptions, even if it means I'm alone in life in the long run without a life partner. In my view, he does not have the background knowledge to make a trip to therapy efficient and effective enough for my tastes to be honest. In some ways he's great, in other ways he's like dealing with someone from another century of human history in terms of his grasp of psychology. It requires building an entire foundation beforehand that I am not equipped to build, a common vocabulary/world view that simply does not exist between us.

My concern is me and should have always been me, not this or any relationship. I am not convinced there is way forward together because the climb is too steep. I got in over my head when I got pulled into his orbit. I thought he "had himself together" when we met and was a reasonably minded person and would heal and recover in time with some loving support from me as an extra bonus. Instead he sucked the life out of me and destroyed our love and damaged as many parts of my life he could touch - that is how I see it, and he'd actually probably agree.

Wickerman, are you and your wife from the same culture? Share the same values and common vocabulary around the benefits of psychology?

warmly, pearl.

From what I was reading yesterday anytime we have 'positive' thoughts about our affair partners creates a tiny burst of dopamine -a small high.
 
As I have mentioned I have having a hell of a time getting ':)ream Come True' out of my heart.  It still brings me twinges of pain and emotional confusion.  Slowly I am trying to extinguish these thoughts and focus on myself and my wife.  My wife triggered yesterday over a conversation we were having about clothing.  It does take time to re-earn trust.

Ha! yes... .I am one of those people.  I had never gone to therapy before.  I consider myself to be introspective, insightful and fairly well grounded.  I also got myself way in over my head.  My 25 year relationship with my wife had taken a toll on me glacially -the debt I was incurring with myself emotionally crept down into my soul day by day, year by year.  I thought I was myself, but I had slowly become someone else.  The affair was this altered self erupting through the mist of my subconscious. 

I find myself now trying to relearn who I am, to reconcile who I thought I was with who and what I have become.  My therapist has helped me with strategies for reconciling my marriage -he has also help me ask myself the tough questions -Was I right to leave Dream Come True?  How much has leaving her cost me?  It is right to reconcile with my wife?  How much can I expect from my wife regarding her personality disorder?  How to deal with the changes in my career?  I had far too much on my plate to contend with alone.
 
I have challenged my therapist as well.  Apparently in our time together I have changed his view on how to disclose an affair. I am fortunate he is a good man and very committed.  One session he told me his next appointment cancelled -so we ran over by 45 minutes.  If I send him a note he responds. 

On the other hand our couple's counselor throws us out at 50 minutes and will not respond to any discourse.  He is a tool -in every meaning of the word (tool can be used as a pejorative in America slang) -but he is good enough to give my wife and I a safe place to talk about emotionally charged issues.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you, but here I am going to offer you a word of caution.  It is diabolically hard to step out of a system and observe it, much less change it.  As I said I consider myself insightful and spend a good bit of time on introspection -but I had no idea how unhappy I had become.  I read a good bit of philosophy but found myself blinded to my emotional state (the system I was in).  Now rereading the very same books I have found they take on a different meaning. 
When I read 'A Road Less Travelled' right after I announced my divorce it told me to run to Dream Come True -the same book now reads with a completely different tone.  Der Ton macht die Musik (the tone makes the music).  Art changes as we change.  I simply could not see that I had changed.

If I didn't see this in you we would not be having this conversation.  You are special, gifted and rare.

We are doing this the only way we know how.  I am certain if we had not had the 'safety' of couple's counseling we would have never gotten through the disclosure of our affair.  With all the Kings horses and all the King's men there would have been nothing I could have done to staunch my wife's rage. 

I could have never caused the breaks in the conversation which the therapist was able to enforce.  When someone falls into diffuse physiological arousal -fight flight response they can't hear you anymore.  This is similar to when the border lines we all have know and loved dysregulate --they can't hear us. 

Even with all the vetting and all the care I took with what I disclosed it was unimaginably painful for my wife to hear.  It hit every panic button she had at once.  She was demanding detail which would have only been hurtful and the therapist was able to explain and mitigate.  If I had attempted to 'withhold' any detail on my own it would have been seen as 'stonewalling'. 


In my opinion the breakup threats at symptomatic of deeper issues in your husband and the marriage.  I should guess if you attempt reconciliation there will be a lot to unwind.  If he does in fact suffer from BPD, from what I have read, there will be a lot of work ahead of you.  It is not common wisdom here on BPD Family, but from what my therapist has told me when a relationship with a person suffering from BPD works it can be quite wonderful.  On the other hand there are thousands of posts here which clearly illuminate the other edge of that sword.

In my opinion if there is any hope for progress it would take your husband not just attending therapy, but embracing it.  If he suffers from BPD this is a tall order for him.  Hell!  I am just a normal 'neurotic' and it is hard for me.  It was hard to admit to myself I needed help -I made it 51 years self nurturing, however, slowly the wheels flew off and I needed help.

From what I have read it is all but impossible to help our BPD loved ones if they do not embrace therapy.  Personality disorders are a world view, always there and always on.  If he suffers internally, as I have read they do, it is a long hard road to finding any level of solace. 

Dr. John Gottman (Marriage Clinic) writes that contempt is the greatest single marker to predict the failure of a marriage.  I wrote in my journal 'The contempt in our marriage must stop --it was the contempt my wife feels for herself to which I was referring!  Her suffering from OC(PD) means she has an endless dialogue of contempt -she can never do enough, be good enough, smart enough and so on.

Now... .Compare this to the inner dialogue of someone suffering from BPD!  People suffering from personality disorders, B cluster or otherwise, cannot get any relief on their own.  I did my best to be supportive and 'help' my wife for 24 years and I was never able to give her any lasting relief. 

Therapy has slowly begun driving a wedge between her and her disorder.  OC(PD) is a walk in the park when compared to B(PD).  I have read B(PD) has aspects of many personality disorders it incredibly painful, hard to diagnose and even more difficult to treat.

It sounds like you are describing most men... .  I realize some of the other issues you have going on with culture and language, but it might be worth a try.  He might surprise you (I mean in a good way this time).

I agree.  You have done the best you could without outside intervention.  Even if you choose not to consult a therapist for yourself, in my opinion, the only hope for a healthy reconciliation would be for him to go to individual therapy and for the two of you to go to couples counseling.  Your marriage as it stands, in my understanding, is simply too much to handle without a good bit of outside intervention.

Yep.  Pearlsw first.  Perhaps it is not worth trying to fix your marriage --this is a decision for you and you alone.  Anyone who tells you definitely to go or stay is in my humble opinion an ass.  This is a huge life decision and one only Pearlsw can make.  There are a lot of factors to consider, but they are for your consideration alone.  We, as concerned, bystanders may offer advice, listed and commiserate -but we cannot make a decision for you.  Too often people on this board say 'run' -they mean well, but we must not make other people's decisions for them. 

Oh my God you said it sister!  Dream Come True shook me to my foundation -we tore each other's hearts out.  As I have mentioned she is still wearing my mother's engagement ring.  I have experienced depths of pain previously unimaginable -a loss of innocence.

Dream Come True I have to believe would have done the same to me.  I am not certain how she would have felt about my destruction. 

My best guess is she would have simply one day disappeared.  I would have found myself homeless, with a baby, an expiring visa, a damaged career and an empty heart.  This is a hell of a thing to say about the person I loved most on this Earth isn't it?

I see where you are going with this... .Well played... .  Yes my wife and I are both originally from the Mid-Western US.  However, her mother made my wife very suspicious of therapy and sensitive introspection.  Of the two of us my world view is much more feminine than hers. 

I like to talk about feelings and my wife is quite uncomfortable with the notion.  Her mother was a rage fueled monster -my wife agrees with this assessment.  Her mother actually would plan evil -premeditated evil!  Her mother enjoyed creating discord and pain.  It has been incredibly difficult for my wife to embrace therapy.  As a point of fact I believe we would have never gotten the help we need without the shock of my affair. 

Previously I had threatened to leave her if we didn't go to couple's counseling.  I backed down.  We were on a cycle of abuse any my work.  I love my work so much it was an escape, just as the abuse would become too much I would get another job and it would reset the clock. 

something... .something... .25 years later.  Time flies whether you are having fun or not.  However, after so many years... .one day I didn't come back from work --more accurately I came back, but left my heart in China.

Wicker Man

Man Wickerman!

You write the best replies! So insightful, thoughtful and they stimulate me to think and go into new areas with this!

I will reply more soon, weekdays I can write more, but just wanted to acknowledge how much you give here to us all!

with deep gratitude and respect, pearl. 

Weekends are the same for me.  My activity here is the last of my ‘deception’.  I do not wish to confess having needed a support group to process the loss of Dream Come True.

Have a pleasant Weekend. 

Wicker Man

I hear ya! I am a bit conflicted over this. I feel I need a support group to function in this relationship and yet my posting here, having to hide it, has actually caused me a lot of grief and turmoil. It's a Catch-22. I am not sure how to resolve it yet... .

Talk to ya soon!

~pearl.

What is more when we post here, at least speaking for myself, I get that little dopamine hit -similar to when I have a positive thought about Dream Come True.  There is an element of escapism for me here -I have been trying to keep an eye on myself. 

Yes -working things out on this BBD is cathartic and important --BPD Family is an irreplaceable resource.  However, personally I have to take care I am not using my time here on the boards to avoid working on myself and my relationship with my wife. 

My situation is unique -in that my wife is not my person with BPD and my ex lover is no longer in my life.

I guess what I am saying here is... .Yep... .Catch 22.  Great book -but a tough paradeigm to live in.

Wicker Man

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