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The divorce is progressing at a glacial pace, I'm cooperating where required but have chosen not to enable on any level. I still believe it is not the best thing for me, the kids or uBPDw. I have no idea how we would ever rebuild, but I'm taking one day at a time at the moment and as comfortable as can be with all outcomes.

I struggle with the unrelenting seething hatred coming from my W. I have 99.9% confidence that it's not something I'm actually doing nor have done in the recent past that would provide her with legitimate reason to be angry with me so I'm trying to look through her projections to see what is behind it.

My suspicion, and this is a bit scratchy because our communication is minimal due to sustained silent treatment, is that I'm invalidating her just by still being there and by being different. She's built this fantasy world around the premise that I am abusive to her and the kids, I pushed her into the arms of another man and because of that her love affair has been sanctified by God. I should go (probably to hell in a hand cart) and I should proactively lead divorce proceedings work in penance for the years of hardship she has suffered... .thus allowing her to be together with her true love and spiritually transcended partner.

So, I don't rise to her seething anger, I don't call her out on the blatant lies she tells me, I don't run around trying to correct the narrative, I validate the valid and don't validate the invalid... .I just note it all down in an attempt to generate a genuine picture of my reality and focus my energy on myself, the kids and people who I perceive as people aligned to my values (a lot fewer people than I thought before this all kicked off).

So is it possible to invalidate her be being not the person she thinks I am in her fantasy? She hates the kids getting along with me, and since I no longer put myself in positions where she could parental alienate me or perceive any trauma reenactment that must bug the hell out of her. I'm pretty sure that she'd love for me to still be bouncing off the wall in abject panic trying to work out what's going on, freaking out that she's spending time with the other chap and shouting at the kids in an attempt to get some perceived control over my family life... .But I don't, I just show her the cage door is open.

I guess I'm invalidating her perception of being a victim. Has anyone experienced this when they have improved their own mental health, perception of reality and figured out the enigma code? I'd love to hope it was an extinction burst however I don't believe she has the self reflecting ability to see that she's the one who's been left naked in the sea whilst the tide's gone out... .nor does she seem to have a willingness to halt her current trajectory, if anything this is cementing her Good vs Evil battle mindset.

I'd love your help working it out for my own sanity.

Enabler

You have a  pretty good theory and I don't see any way to work around it.

You don't want to validate here... .because it's validating the invalid.

Be kind... .be yourself... .and the biggest thing is "don't take the bait".

So... .does she tell you her theories and if so... what do you say.  It doesn't sound like she does... .sounds like she is just a grump that you exist... right?

FF

Thanks FF, you’ve confirmed my frustration. No she doesn’t discuss her theories, she doesn’t discuss anything, she goes to great lengths to increase her secrecy and hide any detail that might give me any clue as to what she is thinking or believes about me.

On the secrecy point I figured that shame makes you want to cover up and hide, so that’s what she’s doing. She knows deep down her affair isn’t moral, but she can’t help hersel. I’m guessing the OM validated everything, including the invalid and she’s sucking on the oxygen... .incidentally the OM sent me an 8 page email describing how horrible I was to my wife and how I didn’t understand her. He suggested I’d knocked her about and I should show the letter to my T... .so I did, we discussed it and concluded that the chap was extremely messed up!

Actions and words aren’t lining up, neither is a consistent intent to an objective of full separation and life on her own... .which weirdly makes me feel like this is the right path to stay on for me now. Either way it seems the safest path to avoid being blamed for the breakdown in the future.

Hi Enabler,

You might also want to bear in mind that some of the behaviors and attitudes could be due to the affair as well as the BP. How long has the former been going on?

It's not necessarily a shame thing. I might be able to help you with an insider perspective on this as I had feelings for an OM for a while recently which I thought might be something God meant to happen. I actually didn't say anything to the OM or take any action about it because it was not in accordance with God's law to do that and I trusted Him to manage the process if I just carried on following the law. (That's the most righteous sounding of the reasons, anyway. There are others but I couldn't for my life rank them.) So I didn't get any validation like your W has been presumably getting, but the sorts of thoughts I had are interesting in this context.

I guess it's like a sort of emotional detachment from the existing relationship and focusing your feelings and interest elsewhere during the time you are still feeding the actual or imaginary new attachment with your thought time or physical actions. (I learned anything dies if you stop feeding it, and in your W's situation the OM is helping feed it too.) I think that most women in this situation would feel some resentment towards the existing man for existing, whatever their former attitude to him, and I guess with a BP who is quite capable of hating you some of the time as well as needing you some of the time, that must be quite easy to go over to giving you all of the hate feelings and behaviors and giving the OM all of the needy feelings and behaviors.

Also if the OM is in regular contact with your W he can be a recipient of her communication. We all like to have someone else to listen to bits of news about our day, our plans, our views and so on. In a healthy marriage we'd often exchange this information with our partner. This feels like we are communicating even if a lot of it is quite shallow. I guess in an unhealthy marriage where this communication gets rejected, causes agitation, gets invalidated, etc. on a regular basis (and/or in the BP's case, if they feel like you are doing that even if you aren't), we start to look for other outlets. That could be the kids or friends or Facebook. If an OM is available she can direct all this stuff to him and it builds their relationship too.

So I wonder if the silent treatment isn't to do with covering up out of shame at whatever level, so much as it is about not needing you to listen to her stuff because she has someone else to listen to her stuff. Have you ever noticed that since Facebook and Twitter and whatever the young people have moved on to after that, there's no more graffiti on the walls of public bathrooms? You don't need both outlets, it's enough fulfilment to have shared your news or clever thought or whatever it is one time. That's a terrible analogy in one respect because you shouldn't have to be the public bathroom wall here and the OM shouldn't get to be Facebook, but maybe you see what I mean regardless.

I agree there ought to be shame and probably is, and I wonder if the outworking of that could actually be her reluctance to be proactive in the divorce. She wants the OM but she also wants to be righteous. If you are a bad man and if you take the lead on the divorce and divorce her, then she is the innocent and righteous party.

So all that is obviously just my theory from a female perspective, but the bottom line of what I'm thinking is as you said it's not about you as such. It's about the role you're playing in this situation, and I can see how a BP could fail to nuance that at all with considerations of your previous good character and support, etc. and just cast you as the ogre.

I hope that helps,
BetterLanes

PS Who writes an eight page email? I know I am not the soul of brevity but really. That does bolster the theory that that's where all her communication is going to.

Hey Betterlanes,

I wholeheartedly appreciate your honesty and opinion here, I am in an information drought and any insight is good especially from a female. I also appreciate your honesty with regards to your feelings towards OM, that takes some guts.

Your insight certainly fits. Some background for you and I will start at 2012 since preceding was much the same just ex kids and 2 cycles of similar behaviour for different reasons. So... .2012 I lose my job, I was emotionally not on the pitch as much, physically I was but I was dealing with my own lack of self worth especially since it took 20m to get a job in a similar field. When I did get a job in desperation it was woefully beneath my previous role and I had a fair amount of depression off the back of that. Then in Dec13 father is diagnosed with cancer and finally dies 18m later after prolonged and upsetting fight. I think W held things together pretty well, or at least I kept up with her demands for attention and emotionally supported her just enough to keep the ship afloat. What I needed was her to be strong for me but as we all know, that was never going to happen. After Dad died and I had gotten a new job appropriate to my skillset I think she thought she could resume leaning on me and I would just revert to being her emotional rock. However, I didn't want or need to be leaned on constantly by her, I was grieving, I had a stressful job which involved getting up at 5am and getting home at 7pm so I tried to get her to stand up on her own... .massive error. I'd like to add that we communicated a lot in the day about stuff but I just stopped validating the invalid of 'my life is tough'.

In late 2015 she started to gather other people to lean on. As these other people took the emotional strain she also shared more and more of her daily life with them. Those whatsaps, pictures of her lunch, intraday chatter messages dried up and guess what, they were heading straight in another direction... .to the OM. Whilst I was invalidating her need need need need need and qwims about being stressed and lacking time to get things around the home sorted (I'm working 5:00-19:00 and providing her a pretty comfi lifestyle FWIW), this other guy is confirming that my behaviour is controlling, abusive, wrong, disrespectful, aggressive... .an animal... .he even validated that I was abusive to the kids for basic discipline. (I've seen the whatsaps and emails between them). She had other lefty feminist friends (no offence) who were on the hunt to rescue any woman with a hint of experiencing a bit of pushing back regardless of the context. So... .OM and girlfriends helped her to paint me black, it really took very little effort due to W's victim penchant... .communication with OM ramps up despite him being married (ironically to an abusive woman, I suspect BPD), they discuss their special god given relationship openly with each other and this has just escalated since end of 2015 beginning of 2016. OM is now separated from his wife and kids and both him and my W are being chaired around the room for being such outstanding examples of Christians. It feels like you couldn't make it up... .but it's almost scripted. You just have to read "Love must be tough" written in 2007 or the boards here to see it happening over and over and over again.

She now shares little to nothing with me. The brief discussions we have had where I might say something along the lines of "this is your choice, divorce was never an option for me" results in her denying it was her choice. She believes she doesn't have a choice because I was abusive... .she believed I was abusive when I stood at the end of her bed crying pleading her to stop messaging the OM 35x a day on whatsap months after I had printed out some of the emails I had found between them and asked her if "this" was an appropriate relationship to be having with another man? I didn't tell her what to do, I just asked her.

The OM is very very manipulative, he knows exactly what he is doing whilst being completely ignorant to what he is getting into. He can't see behind the masks and doesn't acknowledge/believe what happens behind closed doors. He's jumping from the frying pan into the fire yet is completely oblivious to it. Days after he sent me the 8 page email protesting that he only wanted the best for our marriage and wanted to help me as a friend, I see a whatsap pop up on my W phone left on the kitchen worktop saying "I feel okay now, have you gone off me? Calculated that we've spoken on the phone for 2 hours 15 minutes today... .and it's still not enough... .plus other mutual 'thinking' time of... ." then the preview ends... .I mean seriously, what fella spends 2.5hrs on the phone to anyone? The guy is 20yrs her senior, this is his second marriage, the whole relationship has been constructed on complete fabrication, I cannot comprehend how it has a future!

Re your reasoning she is not being proactive about the divorce... .I 200% agree and hence why I am not enabling her to avoid the shame and guilt she needs to feel to pursue what she wants. I am not being cruel, I am making to bare the consequences of her choices. It was not my choice to check out of this marriage and play away, it was not my choice to hurt our children. The cage door is open... .it always has been.

Thanks for your insight and apologies for the long post

P.S. as part of being sensible re any high conflict divorce I keep a spreadsheet on 'stuff'. It's as much a sanity check to refer back to things that were said and done to work out gaslighting and general honesty from W. Anyway... .

She was out 23 evenings in May, many of those involved drinking and many of them I suspect involved OM.

Similar story for the last couple of years. She's not just checked out of me but checked out of the whole family. The kids cry (literally) for her to stay in and not go out.

PPS... .W attended T for all of 2017 then decided in Jan (before petitioning for divorce) that the T had "come to a natural conclusion". I'd love to know what that natural conclusion was other than the T starting to get close to the truth and it being uncomfortable.

I still see my T regularly and will for the foreseeable, I see no "obvious conclusions" on the horizon.

Hi Enabler,

Wow, it sounds like you have had a really bad time the last few years with your job and the loss of your father. It's especially hurtful when things like that happen and the non-BP has to still keep on doing a lot of work to support the BP rather than it being the other way around. I do sympathize.

I have to log off shortly but I will post some more tomorrow. Can I just ask, have you ever fallen in love with someone else as an adult? Do you remember how that feels? If not I will try to describe that for you, not to try to make you sympathize with your wife, but maybe it will help to understand some of her behaviors and feelings.

BetterLanes

One of the toughest things especially when stressed out, and this is going to sound pathetic, is her flagrant disregard for using my brain instead of her own. I exported and read all our whatsapp messages since 2012, there's a constant dribble of questions like ":)o you know where the cumin seeds are?"... .at the time I was thinking, I'm at work and you're at home, you know where the herbs and spices are kept, I put them all in individual glass jars nicely arranged... .if you don't know what cumin seeds look like, use the internet. STOP USING MY BRAIN! And then I'd just respond with the exact location and description immediately. I partially get it now... .it's not how I'm wired, but it is how she is.

I met my wife in the first week of university, she was in a relationship with a guy back home so I assumed she was off limits. She befriended me and I had no expectations. I was pretty mature for an 18yr old so we used to have deep and meaningful conversations over a bottle of wine. She pounced on me one evening and I was somewhat surprised.

So no, I haven't and it's something I have consciously avoided any chance of owing to my wife's paranoia that I was.

I'd imagine it's awesome... .but then I recall the bit in our vows which says "forsaking all others". I didn't say "I promise not to accidentally fall in love with someone else".

The letting her use your brain is something you can work on. You can kindly reply something affirmative like "I know you are smart enough to figure that out and I'm working on something now so I can't look it up ( or answer). She might not like it - people who are used to being enabled don't in general like such changes but this is a small step that is doable.

You can validate someone but you can make someone feel validated or change their thinking. People feel what they feel. She will see you as she chooses to. I think it's more important for you to act ethically and also document what you might need to document in case she proceeds to divorce and makes unfounded claims against you ( legal board is good for that information ).

I think few affairs are accidental. Someone is either looking for a hook up or an affair gradually progresses from a friendship. Total strangers don't just meet for the first time and jump into bed accidentally-neither of them being responsible for initiating something. Your wife may not take responsibility and you really can't make her. Someone doesn't just slip into a lake- they have to walk to the edge first.

We are human and being married does not stop us from feeling attracted to others. To not have an affair takes boundaries. It means not having long intimate talks with potential attractions and not being alone with them where there are opportunities. If you were to fall in love with someone - how would you feel about yourself? I think it is important to be true to our values.

I understand trying to understand how she feels being in love but if fidelity in marriage is you value that doesn't make it OK for you. Couples have recuperated from infidelity with counseling if that becomes a choice.

Thanks notwendy, this was no accident and they as a couple took plenty of advisement along the way from at least 5 different religious groups (home groups, various vicars etc). I can’t imagine someone does that unless they know that there is something fundamentally dubious about their relationship... .despite getting the same response they continued with their special friendship. I’d like to blame it all on him luring her back in but she needn’t have responded and he offered her everything she needed with validation validation validation.

What I don’t get... .although maybe in a BPD’ish way I do is why is it I can tell her she’s the most beautiful woman I know every day, I can reassure her she’s got more potential than she has confidence and I can empower her empower herself day after day after day... .and fall on deaf ears. Yet some floppy haired 55yr old biker comes along who’s not even very good looking and she behaves like it’s the first time anyone has ever told her such things?

I’m open to reconstructing our relationship but I wouldn’t have a clue where to begin.

It may have something to do with BPD. BPD affects the most intimate relationships. You know her better than anyone. I think that a pwBPD is able to keep a mask on with people who don't know them as well. They feel a sense of inadequacy that no amount of complements can fill.

It may also be part of the drama triangle to be in a relationship with two people. If you are the bad guy, the other man is a rescuer. Marriage is complicated and takes work at times. She may have the fantasy with him. I know it's no consolation but if she leaves for him- she takes her disorder into that relationship too and it may not be idealized after long.

I saw this sort of thing with my BPD mother. She may ask my opinion about something and even if I am knowleagable- she won't believe me. Then she will say "the cab driver told me his uncle did this " and consider it. Advice from a total stranger is better to her than someone who is invested in her welfare. Kind of like saying "I won't join a club that accepts me as a member". I think they project their poor sense of self on people who are closest to them.

Personally I think an affair is more about the person in the affair than the partner. I do think both partners can work at improving the relationship- but your wife's choice of partners may reflect her more than you.

I had a very similar pattern of work and completely financially supported my BPDx girlfriend. 8am to 7pm. I never had the chance to take calls or respond to texts, I never controlled her choice of friends. Everything was on the surface - ok - except for the pattern that you highlight, I was simply not available to meet her ebmotional ends on demand. It never really registered that my going to work was a big deal, not validated at all. I could have easily worked fewer hours but this is part of the no win dynamic, she would have seen me as a bum and would have went elsewhere.

In the big personality context, I won, providing emotionally and financially, yet despite her sleeping most of the day into the afternoon, I wasnt there and thats when she felt the impulse to go elsewhere, hacking my phone etc meant she knew what I was up to, yet I was too busy and never entertained the thought of doing the same. Somehow in the midst of all this, her paranoia that I was cheating on her.

In terms of the making judgements, on the one hand when I was idolised I was the "smartest" person shed met, or was enchanted by having a boyfriend that could do so many things successfully. ie, in her world she held me up as "numero uno".

Yet I got the same on the devaluation, and the link here is whenever she sided with other people. Suddenly the manager at the fast food resutaurant with a chemistry degree? was conspiring to tell her what a bad person I was. I think when my ex got wrapped up in the idolisation of anyone it is to a completely devoid of logic extent. When I split up with her for the penultimate time before complete no contact, she wasnt going to him to get her electricity back on. The best that has resulted is she works there, which means she can have all the emotional needs fulfilled, I still find it hard to comprehend how she could manage to hold a job for a year, but it is entirely on that basis. Im not painted black by her, but when it comes to comparisons, there is a gulf of difference in attainment of success, as soon as I ghosted her, within a month she had a job there, shes never had a job during the 3 years together. i slept with her once during the last month and he called her saying how annoyed he was she wasnt going to see him that night. I really was just triangulated and an emotional safety valve for when my ex felt too engulfed by anyone.

In some respects, the fact that you are still living with her, I see it as a simalar dynamic, you are available emotionally and act as a buffer for any strain she might otherwise have felt from the OM. If she would just be with him 24/7, thats when the fissures start to appear. in some ways I believe you are propping up the r/s.

If youve followed Struggler123s, its a similar parallel, as well as my getting back in contact, she was more than happy for this. Id tell her to ask the OM where the cumin seeds are, I did similar things during the r/s, it worked she eventually shut up. some of her words "ok sorry, ill never ask you again". Which she pretty much kept to. "all or nothing" thinking. No middle ground. Black or white.

Nothing to do with intelligence, but some emotional impulsive thoughts that cant discern the fact that because im at work and unable to meet her needs at that time, then im either at not work im cheating on her, or im simply a bad person for being unavailable. When the electricity went off and shes alone in the dark, I became the "good" person again but because I rescued her each time there was no strain on the OM she triangulated with, I carried the strain unknowingly and they never got painted black. Its why leaving was the only remedy, take myself out of the equation. She probably has woken up at some point and realised, when the buffer is gone and she is engulfed, and/or others arent there for her. She told me that he told her "im there for you no matter what", with stars in her eyes, I never told her such things despite actually doing everything during the r/s.

My r/s was great with my ex until she started hanging around other personalities, i was summarily hated (she complained to them to get sympathy, then they would validate her in order to side with her), then when she woke up and realised it wasnt as she thought, (me making moves to leave her) i was subsequently re-idolised, and this became a rinse and repeat wash programme.

Wow guys and gals, thanks for the messages, really appreciated.

Notwendy and Cromwell, the Karpman Triangle is integral in my relationship with my W. I now sense in each situation where she is positioning me. What is seemingly a simple neutral conversation such as:

W - I was wondering whether or not to take some food as a picnic to the Jazz festival tomorrow night, maybe tuna pasta bake or something? <unsure tone of voice>
Enabler - Yeah, that sounds like a great idea, or even some cold pizza or something <upbeat positive tone, thinking she needs reassurance and alternatives>
W - Non of the kids like cold pizza <aggressive tone, snappy and rejecting>
D9 - I like cold pizza <positive, a bit confused at the suggestion she doesn't like cold pizza>

I'm lured into offering suggestions and reassurance but as soon as I rescue my knees are cut off. I just ended the conversation and walked away sensing the start of conflict.

In a macro sense I have been positioned into the perpetrator spot at the very least as some moral justification for her relationship with OM. The cornerstone of that relationship is him rescuing her, emotionally and physically. Examples like, W had smashed her Iphone screen for the 5th time and was claiming that she needed a whole new phone as it was slow anyway. Since she'd gone through 3 phones in the time I'd had 1 I pushed back on the idea... .OM bought her a new Iphone 6S. She lied about this to me claiming it was on contract but I found contradictory evidence. Similarly she told him that I was monitoring her emails between them so he bought her a new ipad and set up different email accounts so now they can communicate covertly... .about religious matters of course... .siiiiigh!

Notwendy, I very much liked your point about it not really being about the partner and more about the person in the affair. It's made to feel about me and when we went to MC the affair was dismissed as being a non-issue and there were more pressing issues surrounding my behaviour. For love nor money I could not get the issue addressed even though it was there like an elephant in the room. It was all abuse abuse abuse abuse... .that went well! However, when you strip events back, it was about the affair, it was all about the affair(s). It's always been about her sensitivities and her ability to push me away and self destruct in whatever way shape or form she should choose.

The rock and the hard place is that I am confident that any relationship with OM will fail and pushing her towards him 24/7 would inevitably expedite that process, however it would require me to self destruct everything that's important to me and hurt my 3 girls possibly irreparably. Had the girls not been in the equation this situation might be significantly cleaner.

Sunny day in London... .COME ON THE WEATHER! 

Hi Enabler, you've shared small parts of your story on my threads in dribs and drabs but this is the first time I've gotten a larger picture. I'm so sorry to hear about what you have gone and are going through.

Coming back to your original question, I have often felt as though uBPDw has constructed a total sh*tbag persona for me to wear when she needs to justify her bad behaviors. I used to not only wear it, but believe in it. Otherwise I would not have on one occasion moved out within 15 minutes at her behest and transferred nearly all of my cash to her. The worse she treats me, the worse I look, and the more it makes sense that she stole my money or ruined my clothes when a few minutes before I was cooking her dinner and comforting her about losing that job opportunity. Through your help and the help of others here, I'm getting better at remembering who I am when I walk in the door at the end of the day and not letting her throw that costume on me.

I think the most important thing above everything is that your girls know that person and not the one your wife is trying to convince everyone that you are. But my guess is that they already do. Kids know the good ones.

~ROE

Hi again Enabler,

As promised here's a view from the inside of this. See if this helps you. This might not represent your W's experience entirely or at all, but it helps me to understand and look at it this way.

Notwendy makes a good point about boundaries and not doing things that feed the attachment. Attraction involves a set of biological processes which you can read an overview of here https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/loves-evolver/201302/the-science-behind-falling-in-love
(dopamine, testosterone, norepinephrine, phenylethylamine) and a feedback loop that gets created for the brain's reward system.

I find it helpful to think of this thing as a creature. It's a specific instance of these biological processes between your W and the OM ("a love". It was born hungry. If the persons involved or others feed it (with things like communication and contact) it gets bigger and stronger. It'll take up all the resources (time, thought, plans, desire) that you choose to give it. You can just feed it on your own, but it does much better with feeding from others as well. If you stop feeding it (forsake it, as you pointed out), it gets weaker and eventually dies. You can leave it alone and wait, or take some specific actions to try to kill it quickly or gradually. It dies harder the more you fed it before you stopped, and it might well leave a ghost behind, but it can die. Read Christina Rossetti's poem "The Convent Threshold" for an illustration of how hard it is to kill these creatures when they get big. The trick as Notwendy says is to not let them get big.

It looks like your W has fed hers a great deal and so has the OM. They have also been dealing with their awareness that it actually ought not to be kept alive, by using religious counselling and your W's friends and stories they tell themselves about you and the OM's wife to justify its existence. So there's this creature now and it's hungry and wild and anxious and craving and it is capable of very great joy and sorrow.

Now this creature was born in a cage - the cage you talked about earlier. And the stuff it was born craving is outside the cage, and the creature gets fed on scraps of the stuff, but it can't possess what it craves. How does it feel about that? It rages and cries and sulks and worries and thinks all the time about how to get hold of more and bigger scraps and/or how to get out of the cage. It resents the cage for being there. It might do active things like chewing the bars or passive things like drooping in a corner. If the cage is strong enough and the creature is hopeless enough it might start doing things like biting itself.

Who's responsible for the cage? Well, for a young person still in the charge of their family it might be their parents. So if they wanted to get the creature out of the cage they could for example run away. Some people might decide that God is responsible for the cage because He made that commandment about adultery, or decide that their church is responsible for the cage because it made particular rules about relationships. So they could abandon the faith or find a more liberal church to get the creature out of the cage. Your W and the OM don't have that option because their faith is actually part of this creature's identity. Some people might think they themselves are responsible for the cage, in Christina Rossetti's poem the protagonist seems to have done this at least partly. But in your W's case, Enabler, I think the only option she had was to make you responsible.

So what can you do as the person responsible for the cage? You already said you tried asking your W to stop feeding the creature and let it die. That's a legitimate ask and you had a right to do it, but as she seems to be very involved with this creature I can see how she could have experienced that as abusive. The action you said you're currently taking seems to me to be the kindest approach after that, of opening the cage door and standing back a bit and seeing what the creature does.

Why is it still lurking in the cage chewing the bars and scowling at you? I don't know. It was born in the cage, and maybe on some level it is anxious about what will happen on the outside or feels it ought to be in the cage (or not to be at all). From what you said, it actually seems to want you to just dismantle the cage around it so that you are the one that set it free. Your W can also be having more logical thoughts about your family situation and her obligations that are helping her keep the creature in the cage for now. She still doesn't have to ever let it out and could still decide to forsake it. The creature is not the whole of her, although it makes her feel like it is. It's a thing with an independent lifecycle but that is tied into her biology. Who knows what your W and the creature between them will end up choosing to do.

So that's a way I find helpful to look at your situation from what you've said, based on my own experience of the process. Obviously it's not the whole truth of your situation. Maybe this metaphor could help you to look at the affair more analytically. Please discard it completely if it doesn't make sense to you or doesn't help you. It helped me to write it anyway.

BetterLanes

PS It's also my responsibility to find stuff in the kitchen.

That's an interesting analogy Better Lanes. I visualize my own BPD mother's emotional needs as vast, like a bottomless pit. I don't know if that is exactly true, but it feels like that. I don't know if another person can meet those needs. I think we, as individuals, need to be capable of meeting our own emotional needs. If we have a romantic partner, then that is a wonderful thing, but if we also have to be OK with who we are, just us. Not loners, we do best with others, but also not unable to be happy. I see someone with BPD as having a core sense of unhappiness and that is projected on others, or they look to others to rescue them, to reflect something back to them. My mother also asks me ( and others) to do things for her that she can easily do herself. I feel manipulated when she does that, but I don't think it is as much manipulated as her asking for these "mini rescues" to fill an emotional need.

An affair fulfills this in a way. A one on one relationship can have challenges at time. An affair can be a rescuer. Another way to fulfill this is to have both of the couple angry at a common "persecutor". pwBPD takes victim perspective and the partner rescues them from the persecutor.

Odd that someone would take great effort to morally, religiously, justify an affair. Moses carved that one on a stone tablet long ago. Some relationships are open, by mutual agreement,  but in a religious marriage, I don't see much room to justify that one. More importantly is that we adhere to our own values and boundaries- we can't control what the other person does but we can decide to accept the situation or not. It's a hard choice with other factors like children involved.

So... .when I see "the problem" and "the fix" expressed in a very succinct way... .I felt hecompelled to point it out.

The "issue" (core unhappiness and projection) and the solution (that we can control) are right here.

Sure there is another solution, which is "they" become self aware and do their "own work".  Sadly, we understand from these boards the rareness of that happening.

 |iiii  To Notwendy for putting this together in this way.


So... Enabler, if you take these things above as "truths" or "axioms", how do they affect the next few months for you?

FF

Firstly, BetterLanes... .what a post, thank you. My W was definitely born in a cage, the cage is comfortable for her. As a couple we thrived when we were both in the cage together (as per W and OM perceive themselves to be at the moment). The bars have been anything from her parents (her Mum is vile under the smallest amount of stress i.e. making a sandwich), university house mates, work, me and now the kids. So currently me and the kids are restraining her... .I think she struggles with overtly blaming the kids as that conflicts with her idea that she's a devoted mother.

Notwendy, the affair is as far as I know emotional only. They would call it a friendship but I don't know any friends who spend 2.5hrs a day on the phone to each other on a regular basis. Either way, and to me it kinda doesn't matter, she is funneling her positive emotions towards him and the beast is growing despite their attempts to kill the beast. Until (assuming they haven't already) tipped past the point the relationship becomes physical they can fool themselves into believing the relationship is "something supernatural" (her words) but a friendship.

FF, so to summarise,
- I know the affair isn't anything to do with me anymore however I am being made the scapegoat to justify the connection
- I know the core issue is unresolved childhood trauma resulting in BPD traits and core unhappiness, however I cannot force her back into therapy.
- She feels caged
- I cannot count on them having self awareness until the point where meaningful trust is required and the idealisation phase is complete.
- Forcing them apart, feeds the beast and strengthens the metaphorical cage bars
- I am fully capable of happiness independently from my W, I accepted this and have had moments of excitement about a life apart from my W, likewise I know that I can have happiness again with my W.
- I am pragmatic about the affair, I understand how it happens, but I also understand that most people don't allow it to happen.
- I have to allow her to play out the conflict in her own head, I cannot control it and shouldn't try.  Playing my own game quietly detaching, not validating that I am the perpetrator.

The beast has grown fat on hot air, hopefully it will pop!

Incidentally my wife has always had dreams of prisons and being caged, in the last few years she has taken these dreams, coupled them with her burgeoning Christian faith and concluded that God was telling her to do voluntary work in a prison. The dreams were a prophecy from God that she should be working in a women's prison. After training as a pastoral assistant she is now visiting vulnerable female inmates of a local women's prison to provide pastoral care. So far she has met quite a few inmates who not only have acute emotional needs such as self harm and depression, but also an inability to take responsibility for the crimes they have committed.

The cage is everywhere   

So... .define... as best you can, the hot air.


Then be careful and reflective about making sure you are not "blowing hot air in her balloon".

Think "hot air balloons".  I suppose they can pop if given enough, but I know for sure if no more hot air gets blown up in there, they eventually come down to earth.

Sucky thing is... .if you stop blowing hot air, she may find others to do it.  It kinda sounds she has.

Back to the core question... what is the hot air? 

FF

Hi Enabler,
Something about your situation as a "third wheel" reminds me of a very different experience in my life, which has some similarities.

I broke up with my first husband, a very abusive pwBPD. Almost immediately he began a relationship with a woman he met online. I was happy for him and supportive of this relationship, as I thought it would finally get him out of my hair.

We had not yet divorced, so we were still sharing the property. I tried to befriend his new girlfriend because I thought it would be nice if we all got along in the interim. I did thoughtful things such as bringing them pizza. It wasn't like I was trying to intrude in their relationship, but since we crossed paths regularly, I tried to be friendly and helpful.

When the new girlfriend got attacked by the neighbor's bull (she thought she was a "bull whisperer" even though she'd been warned that he was dangerous), I was the one who pulled her to safety, assessed her injuries and monitored her vital signs, told my ex what to say to the 911 operator so that a helicopter would be dispatched. He stood meekly in the distance when the paramedics arrived and they thought she was my girlfriend because I was the one keeping her calm. Had I not been there, she would have died from the blood loss, since he would have driven her to the local hospital, which doesn't have a trauma center.

So, you'd think that they would have had some appreciation for my assistance. Oh, and while she was in intensive care for 10 days, I was the one who went over to her house and took care of her animals.

But no. I was painted black. I became this evil person in their minds and they schemed to do all sorts of things to damage me: taking money from me, trash talking me around town, later during the divorce--he lied about assets that were solely mine, etc.

I'm telling you this, Enabler, because I don't think it really matters how honorable and upright your behavior is. They will construct a narrative to feed their reality. My opinion is that this "affair" will play out on its own terms and there's not much you can do to alter its course, sorry to say.

All you can do is to keep with your own values and do your best for your girls. And you're doing that already.

Cat

Hot Air

OM & friends validating the invalid... .examples of:
- Enabler is abusive to the children
- Enabler is abusive towards you
- Enabler controls you
- Enabler is violent and angry
- Enabler doesn't respect you
- Enabler has NPD
- Enabler forces you to work... .but Enabler also forces you not to work
- Enabler is disrupting the divorce process
- Enabler doesn't help out with the kids and the house... .Enabler tidies up too much and always puts away things I have got out
- Enabler is obsessed by money
- Enabler controls money and doesn't let me buy what I NEED
- You are so busy all the time, you are run off your feet and underappreciated (note enough time for 2.5hrs on the phone to OM... .and a run... .and some clothes shopping... .)
- Enabler is trying to destroy you
- Enabler is a stalker, the only reason he wants to snoop on your communications is because he wants to destroy you
- Enabler is looking to find evidence against you in a divorce
- Enabler constantly judges you
- You are responsible
- You are accountable
- You have sanctified yourself to God
- Setting up a 24/7 prayer room in our garden barn is an awesome idea
- Converting the barn in the garden into a yoga studio and becoming a yoga instructor is an awesome idea even though you've never done a yoga class in your life is an awesome idea
- Selling the 7 seater and buying a tiny car is a great idea even though most weeks you take 6 kids to and from and after school club
- You will be better off divorced
- God is working in our relationship
- Supernatural things happen like meeting on the steps of St Pauls Cathedral after a service that neither of us knew the other one was going to... .even though they did because W put it on a chat he was on... .owwww mystical!

I could go on. I will instead give you an extract from one of my favourite hot air emails from OM sent in 2016.

"So what I was saying before about the muggle explanation coming to the fore in the (temporary?) absence of the more easily-understood, yet still inexplicable, spiritual clarification, is better described as the pining of straightforward lovers, unable to deal with emotions that they might have initially sought out and embraced because it would be fun, as opposed to our recognition of this being delivered to us as part of a bigger purpose over which we had no influence and could not have avoided, so powerful was the connection that was forced upon us. The latter is definitely the truth, and we're both sensible enough not to have chosen to have a throwaway fling in our own back yards. We just definitely would not have done it, so our conviction that we've been brought together for a bigger purpose remains paramount: the question is how much are we supposed to be fighting the attraction bit, when He's undoubtedly delivered that at the same time? Again, we're both sensible enough to wish that it was taken away simultaneously so neither of us got hurt, we wouldn't hurt others and we could be mutual platonic friends for evermore. Surely, if that was what He wanted, He wouldn't be letting this get in the way of us moving forward with His purpose."

How can I fight against God?... .and in her mind OM is God embodied... .and actually in his mind he is God Embodied. What I say and do now is no longer relevant. The initial lies have their own momentum and Rescuers just fill in their own blanks. Evidence... .truth... .that died long long long ago.

I could barely get through that e mail without thinking how creepy and manipulative it sounded. You are not up against God- it's this man's way of thinking about God.

I agree with what Cat said- no matter how upstanding you are - it's not possible to control how others think about you. That's not the reason to be upstanding- it's about who we are and our own morals and values. You know who you are. Someone can't take that from you, even if they don't acknowledge it.

Good Morning Enabler... .from the Colonies !

I am very late to your post, but I am catching up.

I think you have the right and correct mindset, you are on the right track, clear, concise, and effective self worth thinking, keep it up!


I am thinking g-o-d with a little "g"... .in fact both of them (OM included here)... .a legend in his own mind he is (maybe)... .

The truth is, God with the BIG "G", lives in our hearts, not our brains... .God tells us in the scripture a whole wagon load about humility, and what that is all about... .I read the email too, .wow !

Seems folks will do almost anything to "justify"... .even bend the laws of the universe... .selfish pride is a very dangerous thing, .my first wife told me some pretty big "whoppers" about how I was going to "accept" her "fooling's round"... .oh' yes, the things of nightmares... .in fact in the end, she jettisoned God altogether, so as to "make it right" in her own mind... .so it was a "Lots wife" moment for me... .

I survived it, and so will you Enabler !... .so will you !

Best regards, Red5

Notwendy, I can't begin to describe the shivers that went up my spine when I read the things he wrote to my W, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Another special moment was when he sent her a facebook message inviting her on a biker trip to Europe, just a week after she'd told me she wanted a divorce in Apr17... ."Just keeping you in the loop, in case your new beginnings include being a biker's b!tch... .!"  And this is the person who claims to have our marriage as his primary concern.

A photo that was saved down on our family laptop from my W's phone at the end of 2016 whilst I was living at my mothers as part of a temporary separation said "The devil doesn't come dressed in a red cape and pointy horns. He comes as everything you've ever wished for". I shudder at the thought that he is everything she had ever wished for (what does that say about me), but how very true.

So... am I correct in the logic of the other man.

I'm doing this... .therefore "god" is allowing me to do this... .therefore this is "gods" will... .therefore we shouldn't fight it and therefor what we are doing is "right"... .because "god didn't stop it.

Are other's seeing the apparent thought process in that way?

Wow...

I mean... I've done wrong things and I likely will again.  Most of the time I "justify" to myself why this or that is "right" or "ok"...

Wow... he appears to just come right out and say it's "gods" will.  

FF

This is my W's attempt at explanation of how she see's it... .and I believe he 'might' see things the same way although I fear more evil hands on his part, since it has been clear from communications that he wants to guide the advice they receive rather than seek wisdom to determine what is RIGHT.

Oct16

Enabler, I will never ever be able to properly explain my friendship with OM to you. I was completely compelled to be in intimate communication with him, in what I can only describe to be something supernatural. It is not an excuse. It is nothing I have ever experienced before, totally unprecedented, and was not lead in any way by physical attraction. This is the complete, honest truth. I know that it was the same for OM too. That is also the truth, no matter how much you hate him or want to believe otherwise. Attraction did at times begin to creep in, which we recognised and openly discussed in our exploration of this very very strange compulsion to be in contact and communication. Our communication was, absolutely predominantly, discussion and recording of our contemplation on God and our spiritual journey that was undeniably occurring. We were both literally given words to write down and this was all spurred by being able to communicate with each other. I have never ever before felt compelled to write about God and my faith and yet here I was, waking at all times in the night, and being compelled at random times throughout the day, to splurge down these clear thoughts that were literally erupting in my head about God and my faith. It was weird, extreme and just impossible to deny. The words were literally just flowing out of my head and on to screen in a way that, again, is unprecedented in my life. I knew it was for a reason but I didn't know what that reason was. Is all I know is it was important. Important enough to risk hurting you over. I knew that this was unconventional and did not follow the rules, and yet I was compelled to ignore that and take the risk.
I still don't yet know whether I was right or wrong in doing this. I certainly never ever wanted to cause you any hurt or pain, and it was in no way an act of revenge for the hurt and pain I was feeling inside about us.
On numerous numerous occasions OM and I discussed distance and attempted to cease this contact and communication, knowing the impact it must be having on our partners and questioning how this could be right. And yet it just resulted in it all coming back stronger.
I do think it's certainly possible that the Devil has made attempts to distract the true purpose of our friendship and communication together. And I do 100% appreciate that it didn't follow the usual rules. But there is something undeniably odd and spiritual about the connection OM and I have. It may sound like convenient excuse, or that I have indeed been brainwashed or even groomed by OM to think all of this. But the honest honest truth is that I have never been more clear or certain about anything. I have spent hours and hours over the last year thinking about this all from all angles. Considering every possibility. It still didn't lead me to the conclusion that this was completely wrong. Wrong on some levels yes. But there is something underlying that isn't wrong. I was supposed to encourage OM and support him in his faith journey. That was a clear fact and something of extreme importance. I was supposed to write all the stuff that was flooding into my head at all hours. And the thing that was stimulating all this was communicating with OM. It was like a gate way to an extension and deepening of my faith and relationship with God. God has been so present in my life over the last year, in a mind blowing way. I feel His presence in an overwhelming, unprecedented way each and every day. This is very different to what I have experienced before. And it's something I do not want to turn my back on. I know He is calling me and wants all of me. And I want nothing more than to give that. It ignites me, it drives me, it fills me with joy like nothing else. I believe my passion for God and the path I may be called to take for Him, can run alongside my family and I trust and know enough to be certain that God is a good God who will not let this path harm me or those around me. Only good comes from giving yourself to Him wholly.
Now I know, acknowledge and indeed totally respect, your position, thoughts and feelings on both God and my friendship with OM. I can wholeheartedly see it from your side. And I meant it on Sunday, when I said how sorry I was for the hurt and pain I have caused you over this. I am very sure OM and I have mismanaged this in many ways. It's just not straight forward and simple though. Yet I am not using that to excuse the mismanagement, deceit, or hurt caused.
I am attempting to rectify how I have been mismanaging this. I am attempting to involve others for guidance and direction.
I only want to, and have only ever wanted to do what is right.
I don't know where this will all end up but I was compelled to write this to you this morning. Compelled to have one last attempt at explaining to you something which I don't understand myself!
I know that this isn't the path you are on right now and this could be seen as an insurmountable difference. Indeed I don't know whether it is insurmountable or not. Clearly something, that between us, we need to take a lot of care, thought and consideration over.
So there it is. I hope you can read it in the way it is intended.
I am still the same EnablerW, one that is human and has made mistakes along the way, but also one who has a lot of compassion and love to give out to her family and others.


Unfortunately this was all pre BPD knowledge so non of it made any sense and my response was a nuclear weapon into the heart of her shame complex. There was no SET... .just T.

One of the T's was:
"You and OM have created an unhealthy environment with which to discuss God or more importantly your interpretations of outside inputs to your beliefs…. You are not testing your PERSONAL interpretations and therefore not testing the conclusions you are coming to, which has led you to believe that your relationship with OM is omnipotent, which is totally contradictory to several of the cornerstone beliefs of a Christian faith, and the vows that we made to each other in front of God."

They created an echo chamber and weaponised God.

Bollocks, as you Brits would say. Quasi spiritual justification for violating the sacred oath of marriage.

I got the new-agey version of this once from my first husband. He had started an affair with this "spiritual" woman and one night he confessed it to me as we were lying in bed. It even went so far as him saying that he could "feel her presence at this very moment". Totally creepy. And somehow I was supposed to be OK with that because it was "spiritual".

Just another wordy BPD justification of being able to do whatever they want, the rules be damned. Of course, no one else could have those privileges. It's exclusive to them because they're just following God's directive.

Pure BS.

Cat, that was in essence my reaction, but I am mingling (was going to say fighting  but I’m not anymore) a whole world of different realities here, a world where unicorns with cake as feet roam in search of badgers to eat. Imagine a nanny who told your kid day in day out that the world was a cube and agreed relentlessly when your 4yr old said I hate mummy and daddy because they won’t let me eat chocolate for dinner!

It’s feels unstoppable

Well Jim Jones said that god told him and his flock to drink poisoned Kool Aid. Somewhere we need to use common sense when people speak like OM does. Three major religions adopt the 10 commandments which don't support that his and your wife's feelings for each other  are divinely ordained. I think that's enough evidence.

Keep all those e mails- they would be evidence should they pursue a divorce. I'm not a lawyer but could these e mails be evidence for "alienation of affection?"

Fear not they are banked in multiple locations for safe keeping. She is seeking a divorce and the petition is going through now at a glacial pace. Going down guns blazing is the work of pride, and pride comes before a fall.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds”

... .and let’s hope we don’t have to wait for his death to see his ends!

Your wife is going to think/ say whatever she does. What's important is that you maintain a perspective grounded in reality. Even your children will observe that their mother says things that don't coincide with their observations. It's important that you validate them in a diplomatic way.  My father joined my BPD mother in denying my own reality - even though he knew better himself. I would rather he reinforce my perceptions. Your kids are young but they will grow and have minds of their own.

The triangle is common and not just with romantic relationships. I was my mother's black child. She blamed her issues with my father on me. I believed that when I left for college, they'd be happy without me. They still had their issues after I left. Your wife can imaging that she and OM would be happy if you got out of the way. That isn't likely to be true. If you think about how your relationship started- it seems she found you when she had a boyfriend. Maybe they were having issues that she imagined would not be with you. But we bring our own dysfunction into relationships. She and OM are in a fantasy relationship because she is unavailable to be with him all the time. That's a lot of if only.

He might not want her once she is available to him. I know it is speculation but it could be her unavailability that enables this intimacy. He's safe ( so far ) from a real relationship with its ups and downs.

He could have his own issues-  If it was just the two of them it could be an unstable relationship.

Enabler, you say that it "feels unstoppable" and I would conclude that you're right.

My first husband had numerous affairs, some of which I became aware of. I tried all manner of sabotage and no matter what manner of monkey wrench I attempted to throw into the works, nothing seemed to slow down these affairs, nor make either of the affair partners aware of nor compassionate for my role as the cheated upon wife.

Over time, however, all these affairs eventually burned out. One of them, however, lasted many years.

So, I would wager that there's nothing you can say or do that would hinder the ardor with which they are pursuing this folly, which they believe is graced by God. Any interference would likely cause a further backlash against you.

That said, it seems your only choice is how much you choose to interact with your wife, and considering that you are still living together with your children, that seems hard to avoid.

She's got the best of both worlds: the fantasy partner, and you, supporting her.

Until one of those situations change, I think she'll drag out the divorce and milk your support for all she can get.

My ex was blinded by following his "passion" but at the same time was really cunning, in trying to get as much out of me as he could. I sense that your wife understands this calculus.

A few thoughts/questions.

Does she normally write this way?  Does she normally talk this way?

That was a "unique" piece of writing... .wow.

Last question:  Can you do a "fault" divorce?  Is there any legal advantage to involve the OM in a lawsuit for interfering in your marriage?

No clue about your laws over there. 

Do you have other... similar emails?

FF

There are many emails but the bulk of interaction was on WhatsApp post may16 when I confronted her with my evidence, something I would now advise members to not do unless they are prepared to give a firm altimatum since actually it just served as a learning experience to change behaviours not stop. I did scrape the WhatsApp messages via a backup on our home pc but again I spoke to someone else about this, she found out and had a guy erase the evidence. I now photograph things on a work phone and just collate evidence safely... .saying nothing. It makes little difference other than pride whether there is fault or not in the UK, the financials for example are allocated on a needs basis.

FF, interesting you should ask if she writes in this manner... .no, she doesn’t at all. The style of writing and words are OM’s style and his words, she is mirroring him. She also spent our entire relationship saying she hated motorbikes and would never marry a smoker... .he rides a Harley for leisure and smokes. She mirrors a few significant people, always has done... .hence her values change. I mapped out friends and our relationship over the years and there were huge correlations based on the different people she was idealising.

The evolution of our relationship has been almost exactly word for word as per the bpdfamily evolution of a BPD relationship piece, it also rang true from the article called “why we struggle with relationships” about how there was a period of calm when we had very young kids (sub invalidation age say 2). As though she had everything she had always dreamsed of. Now she looks back at young baby period with contempt.

D8 & D9 are already getting a view and whilst trying to avoid parental alienation I do validate their sense that mummy talks a lot of BS. I caught D9 on Sunday looking at W after W aggressively claiming she was so busy to do something (guilting D9 into doing an adult task of making lunch)... .D9 had suggested if she was so busy she shouldn’t go for a bike ride and was shot down... .anyway, the look was “I’m all over what you’re doing here and I know you’re wrong but I know it’s pointless arguing with you.” Later on I said to D9, you should have confidence in your gut, you made a very valid point earlier, to which she said “I know”.

As things stand at the moment, that is one of the primary reasons why I am here now, I see the value I add to the kids lives.

Just want to say how wonderful you all are and I really appreciate the support over the last few days. Xxxx

Whilst clearing out the filing cabinet today... .I know, how to spend a vacation day when it’s 30c outside... .I stumbled on a bunch of letters, some were from me, some were from my W ex from 14-18. It’s insane when you read the love letters, all bar none say “I don’t know why you’re angry with me, I love you and will do anything to sort it out”. Both me and the ex never seem to get why she was angry with us... .20+ yrs ago. One letter that stands out was one from me written in our first year at university. We’d obviously had a fight and there was a bit of a Mexican stand off, with me in the flat below wishing she would come down and rightfully apologise and her upstairs thinking... .something totally different. Anyway, I wrote this letter saying “don’t block me out of your problems, I can solve them for you”. If only I knew that I couldn’t solve anything for her. I might have been able to carry the bag that she should be carrying as an adult... .but solve the prpblem... .naaaaa, no chance.

Can’t drive life in reverse!

Given the relatively low percentages of PDs that are out there... .I've often wondered if I should "train" my kids differently than my parents did.

I mean... if someone is mad... .especially in a relationship... .see if you can work it out.

Does anyone raise their kids to say "I have confidence that you will work through your apparent anger... " or some sort of SET?

Sigh... .

FF

It’s interesting how we nons can get evidence that we disregard at an early stage in our relationship.

When my husband was moving in with me, he sorted through boxes of old correspondence and shared a letter his first wife had written him when they split up in their early twenties.

She pointed out his inability to self reflect. He thought it was a nasty unkind letter, but at the time, 10 years ago—when we still were in the honeymoon phase, I thought it was quite accurate and direct, not unkind at all.

So I knew then what’s taken me years to accept!

As the daughter of a BPD mom, I wholeheartedly agree that you should take steps to train your kids to look out for PDs.

Low percentage? I seem to find them everywhere—friends, relatives and acquaintances abound. I’m now actively trying to root out the ones I don’t need to interact with and put distance between me and the ones that I must endure.

Fortunately my relationship with my husband has become the easiest of the lot, thanks to what I’ve learned here.

But I can’t emphasize this enough: when you grow up with a BPD parent, the behavior you witness has a ring of normalcy and familiarity. And it becomes easy to tolerate behaviors that woul seem to be deviant to someone raised by emotionally healthy parents. In fact, it even can feel homey and comfortable and one can feel helpful and kind aka codependent.

So, absolutely, talk to your kids about PDs. That woul be a good topic to bring up with your P—ask how to delicately share the info without putting the onus on your wife. Kids will know something is off with mom—they just won’t understand what it is.

It took me years and graduating with a BA in Psych and some years in grad school with an unfinished degree, and years of therapy, and not till I found this site did I realize what exactly was “wrong” with my mother.

I remember telling someone years ago that it might be harder when a parent is high functioning in the external world to understand that they do indeed have a mental illness. For so many years I felt that I was to blame for her outbursts.

I think if someone acts crazy and everyone can see it, then you have a collective perspective. When only the family observes it, then it’s easy to doubt your own perceptions.

Said ex was deamonised to me, as far as I knew he was a violent druggy who played around... .this dossier would actually suggest she was the one playing around (plenty of letters from other randoms during what I thought was a continuous teenage relationship), she liked a smoke when I met her and I know she didn’t mind hitting her ex. I thought I could fix her, I thought “it” was environment rather than an integral part of her. Rather than her orbiting chaos, the chaos was orbiting her, and still is.

I think I realised this many years back, probably 2001-2002, post marriage. She had the environment for happiness yet tried to destroy it time and time again. This is when I aggressively changed the deck of cards, poorly asserted boundaries with shot guns and rocket launchers... .regrets... .of course. Mores the point I was shooting blind in the dark, from the hip.

I will be teaching my kids to look out for red flags, that said, I think by the time they get to adulthood they will know the full manual. I already teach soft skills and rather than opt for the traditional “just make up and move on” I opt for a more thoughtful process of “has this person got form in being horrible to you? Maybe getting back in the sand pit is not in your best interests, you decide”. D9 is making good friend choices and learning lessons quickly. Although PDs are only a small sub sect of the popn, they pull in a lot of people into their chaos. I would say 50+ people are whirling around my wife’s chaos, not to mention the maimed lives left in her wake in the past.

This is probably a topic for another discussion but as much as I agree with teaching children to look out for PD red flags that is IMHO insufficient to help them avoid a relationship with someone with a PD.

I saw the red flags in my BPD mother. The illusion was that I saw her as the only one with the problem. I idealized my father and perceived him as her victim. I only learned later that "normal" and even desirable in my family was equally dysfunctional enabling behavior. I had two role models for relationships. I knew my mother was dysfunctional and didn't want to be like her, so I grew up taking on my father's characteristics. This set me up to attract people who were attracted to emotional caretakers and not even realize it.

I was not allowed to stand up for myself with BPD mother and was punished by both my parents if I did. I did not know how to stand up for myself in a relationship and feared angry people.

With my own children, I encourage them to trust their gut. If they don't feel comfortable around someone- I validate their feelings. Their own boundaries are their best protection and I reinforce them, not deny them. I also am open about myself . They are old enough to understand that I am working on co dependency. I have discussed the drama triangle with them. Since my H is good to the children most of his issues are mainly with me. I would feel as if I was triangulating if I discussed him with the kids but if they ever ask me, I would be honest. By working on my own enabling behavior I don't role model it for them. Instead they see me applying the tools here, self care, and boundaries. With these intact - they are less likely to attract and or remain in a relationship with a PD for long than if I modeled enabling behavior.

My BPD mother is severe and has all the classic signs of BPD and they were obvious. I knew to avoid them. The issues with my H and his own FOO background were milder and I did not recognize them. I guess growing up with the obvious was a mixed blessing. I recognized major dysfunction but not other forms of it. There were clues, but I wrote them off because they were not as severe as my mother. What appeared to be "normal" to me was years of verbal abuse, circular arguments, days of silent treatment- all with a partner who didn't act like my mother because I was taught to enable and accept it.

This was me, Nw, and I'm guessing a lot of us here.

Enabler I think you've touched on something very important here and seconding Nw that this might be worth a whole new thread. It's inspiring to me that you are actively teaching your kids to watch for the red flags since they are a few years ahead of mine in age. Right now my kids are small so I really don't know how to teach them beyond not doing the horrible things their mother does. Also trying to control the messaging when mom is not around "mama and baba love you, you will always be with us, we will never send you away, etc... ."

~ROE

Ditto.

This is my D9... .I’m trying to change that, give her the confidence that her voice speaks truth. She is a lovely creature, I’m not perfect so I’m glad when she challenges me... .and when she does I give her little voice air time. Yes we argue but I take her points and we discuss in an appropriate way. I don’t shout her down for arguing with me, I critique her points but I see that as fair game. She’s entitled to opinion and often it’s totally valid... .hopefully she sees that I adopt her valid points and she’s comfortable that I’ve given her suitable reason when it’s not. Her M on the other hand wants no discussion, you will believe in unicorns!

Feel terrible about what happened last night in front of my son. Cross at myself for being so stupid and not coming on here to learn rather than seeking for a silent mode aggressive partner to engage reasonably and cooperate. I’m finding this a difficult lesson to learn, with shameful outcomes for my own urge for a reasonable engagement.
It’s been days of this silence, aggressive silence even ignoring my presence when I’m holding our son or simple things like asking to use the loo e.g I’m letting you know i really need the loo please can you be quicker?
She’s keeping him our son in soaking wet clothes for half an hour I gently ask if I should get a towel met with anger and aggression and defensiveness, I’ll get the towel he’s not been out for ages shortly after it’s f u this snd that... .I remain calm but I do implore: please don’t speak like this to me or you can’t talk like this to people... .
this is days of behaviour like this ignoring me when I’m there and our son is in the room it’s extraordinary as if pretending I don’t exist- I find this the hardest I worry about my sons experience of this alternate distorted reality she creates.
So it came to last night and though I was trying to meditate and I’d asked her to keep the music down just a little and close the door so we could concentrate whilst she bathed our son. Of course I’m totally ignored, I ask her to cooperate ... .anyway right now I’m thinking why didn’t I just get on and meditate and not bother about the surroundings? I must have known that she’s call the police to push me away so I feel angry at my self for not being more focused on avoiding conflict. I’m feeling confused and ashamed waking up from all this at my friends place. It’s like with all her threats and coercion demands and aggression she sets herself up as a natural consequence eg when I point out how aggressive she is to me and swearing at me, your getting what you deserve or well shut the f up then or as long as you are talking that’s what you’ll get. and this triggers me I’m like no your decisions are not  a natural consequence they’re your decisions snd dysfunctionsl behaviour. However whilst this keeps me sane as she Gaslighting me it doesn’t solve the bigger issue of getting her to realise her issues are her s and not me and getting her to treatment.