BPDFamily.com

I eventually got to have a conversation with my canon law expert contact. The clickbait headline for this post is ":)ivorce not necessarily a sin, says Catholic Church."

So I thought the Church had this backwards in making you commit the sin of civil divorce before going into the annulment process which would tell you if it was a sin or not (at least in this country - in Italy an annulment counts as a civil divorce). I queried this with my contact and he said it's not the civil divorce that is the sin, because the Church doesn't actually recognize it on a spiritual level - to the Church you would be a separated married couple. [BL thinks at this point: Wait what?]  So that is why the annulment process is usually only relevant if you want to remarry in the Church.

This needs to be seriously nuanced as my contact was looking at this from the typical situation of a couple seeking or having already done remarriage and needing an annulment, and here the main sin issue is the public act of remarriage. Civil divorce is considered sinful for some reasons and situations as we will see shortly. But I had no idea at all that the Church thought civil divorce could be morally okay depending on the situation.

This is from the canon law regarding separation - www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P45.HTM
Can.  1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.
[Also from that page, did you know there was a six month deadline for splitting up after discovering adultery? Me neither!]

This is from the canon law regarding divorce -
www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM
2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. [footnote is 1151-1155, i.e. the page linked above about separation]
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
[You can read here what it is the Church thinks is sinful about civil divorce.]

Well, color BL gobsmacked, this was entirely news to me. I then Googled, found, and binge-read everything under "Resources" on this beautiful website by Rose Sweet, starting here:
www.catholicsdivorce.com/Is-it-a-sin-to-divorce
This and the other Resources have an explanation of all the nuances of what does make a civil divorce sinful and what you are supposed to do before taking that step. I have bought her book which should show up today.

Unexpectedly pushed into the place of second most interesting thing in that conversation was the canon law expert's pointing out that for personality disorders to be grounds for an annulment, there needs to be sufficient weight of evidence that the disorder was present at the time of the marriage and affected the validity of the individual's consent. This could (and usually would) include medical evidence and also evidence from those who knew the couple at the time of the marriage.

I hope this is of interest. I can't necessarily follow up much on this thread till next week, by the way. I do recommend that website to Catholics wanting to know more.

BetterLanes

I'm not a Catholic (I'm Baptist variety).  At one of my shore commands my chaplain was Catholic and it was very interesting to have discussions with him.

A few impressions that should give you hope.  

The Catholic church and their rules seem very thoughtful and seem to have a purpose that is "logically consistent" (certainly as compared to some Baptist "rules".

The church has experts (like you have apparently talked to) that seem to focus on consistency of the rules and interpretation of those rules.

So... if civil divorce is possible and not a sin, I think you will find a clear set of answers AND how to go about partaking in that process.  Process seems to be big in the catholic church... .I'm a "process" guy... .so I respect that.

I would advise you to check with several experts to make sure you are getting the same answer, but I would be shocked if you get much variation in answer.

Best to you... FF

PS:  
 An example of "illogical" Baptist rules.  Many churches forbid drinking of any kind because "the Bible says it's a sin" (ummm... .no... .it doesn't... .drunkenness yes, but drinking is not)  So... in one of my first experiences with one of these really conservative churches and the senior pastor was "pushing back" against my reluctance to join... .I explained my conundrum.

"By your rules... .if Jesus came back to earth and performed one of his miracles (turning water into wine) an he drank some and some of your members drank some, you would have to kick Jesus and your members out of your church... or choose not to follow your constitution.  That doesn't seem logical or wise... .

He conceded I had a point... .

I doubt you would find silliness like that in the Catholic church.

Thanks Formflier! I love process too and it does seem from Rose Sweet's website that there is an established process for handling people in this situation. Now I know that exists I can go ahead and get into it and see what happens.

I think my problem was I didn't know that was a thing at all - there is a lot of talk lately about how to deal with Catholics who have already divorced and remarried (as my contact said, this is the presenting sinful issue), but I have never heard any discussion in church of marriage difficulties and separation. Or of marriage or relationships at all, actually. There is the sacrament of confession, but that's about confessing your own sins, it's not set up for telling about other people's sins towards you. Catholic Marriage Care have not yet provided any help after 6 months now of waiting.  So I guess what we have here is not a failure of the process but a failure to advertise the process. I can see why not advertising it would have apparent moral benefits for the church as a whole, but for individuals, well, I was very low indeed, and there might be many other people out there in the same mental situation or who left the Church because of it. I will be sure to explain this to whoever ends up listening. (In a nice way of course :) )

Best wishes,
BetterLanes

PS About the drinking, good answer! There are a number of Catholic rules that I think are as much as or more for the good of society than directly based on the Bible. I think maybe that is what you have here and I think that is fair enough as long as you say so. I think it would be perfectly legitimate for a church to say "no drinking at all because alcoholism is a big problem in society, we want to dissociate from it completely, and we want ex-alcoholics to be able to participate fully in church services and socials without fear." That would then not be a silly ask at all. But if you label all drinking as intrinsically sinful you'll have a hard time properly proving that from the Bible as you say.

So... from one process guy to another... .my advice would be to clarify how far you can go in the process by "investigating" and "preparing" and that you understand precisely the point where you start "filing" or "participating" in the process.

Very similar to talking to a lawyer about divorce and actually filing the divorce.

Then... let's perhaps back up here and talk about your "real" goals.  My understanding is that you desire healing in your marriage... right?

My understanding is that catholic marriage care hasn't been responsive or hasn't worked... right?  I would put more energy over there... and make sure you have "exhausted" that avenue.  Especially if you are waiting.

Similar to my situation:  I thought there was an avenue for the church we attend to help.  We went to their counseling and I'm convinced there is not an avenue there, they simply don't understand PDs (it's actually more complicated than that... .but that will do for now)

I would think that the "annulment process" would flow better if you can show them that you have done the "healing process" without success or that you wife has refused.


FF

PS  I agree... they meant no harm with their church constitution, it was just not "thought through".  Also, the senior pastor was confused because it wasn't like I wanted to drink... at least a lot.  I'm a fan of "craft brewing", so from  time to time, when I can get a ride or Uber I will go check out some locally brewed beer. 

OK... another FF rabbit trail.  I certainly had a wonderful life/career flying off aircraft carriers... .so it is rare to meet people I am jealous of.  So... I've done some Uber driving off and on over the years, mainly to meet people and talk... .and make some extra bucks... but mainly the social part. 

Anyway I picked this guy up and was chatting with him and his wife.  I was taking him to a local brewery.  I asked what he did for a living and he said he was a journalist for a beer magazine.  (my interest level went way up)

So... I'm like... "wait a minute... .you get paid to travel around the country and drink beer... and write about it?"  He and his wife both smiled  "Yes... I get paid well to do that... ."

All I could say is "Nice work! "

Hi Formflier,

Thanks again! I don't think I have actually got to the point of deciding what I want yet. It's pretty much the one month anniversary today of me finding out that BPD was a thing at all. It's been a wild ride of a month!

I've been focusing on finding out what my options are and discovering what help is available, rather than spending time introspecting what I actually want. I'm not really much further on in that respect than I was a month and a day ago thinking "I can't continue being in this marriage as is with no change for the remainder of my life". I will get to that introspection, but as it happens, as far as I can judge from Rose Sweet's website, the Church separation process expects you to have attempted joint marriage counselling as an early step anyway. So one next step is to ask on here after the weekend what approaches might be safe to raise that as a prospect with my H, from a position of having never seriously asked him for a significant behavior or relationship change before. (Apart from adding a child, and that was really traumatic for him.)

Another next step is to identify someone in the Church who does have the necessary knowledge to discuss my situation, as you say that's important. This would be the equivalent of the lawyer to discuss with. I have been waiting since January for a solo phone appointment with Catholic Marriage Care and have chased up a few times with them, had a few callbacks saying "you're still on our list", but nothing yet. On the plus side, I only now know exactly what I would want to ask and say if I finally get those calls, but I won't rely on them to be that person to discuss with. I'll look around for someone else.

The Church process from what I read is really more a kind of spiritual counselling system up to the point where you file for an annulment, then it becomes the real deal with a special court and everything.

Back after the weekend,
BetterLanes

PS I agree, best job ever! :) Also, yes, craft beer is surely the least sinful of drinks.

OK... that post helps.

You seem at a very "rational" place with this (this being ? is this BPD thing).  I'm sure your emotions are still raw as well... .hang in there.

I'm going to suggest you "investigate" and "gather data" for 6 months.  Part of gathering data is using tools on this website and seeing how you wife "reacts" to them.

Here is the thing.  Most people find there are enormous changes they can make for the better, without involving their partner at all.  Use the "dance" analogy.

If you start dancing to a different tune and refuse to do the "old dance" when your partner encourages you to do so... .well... they will eventually start doing a different dance.

This is the good part about "fear of abandonment".  They don't want to lose you, so if that means doing a different dance... .so be it.

This isn't a precise method... but it usually leads to "more stability"

I will tell you the first time I "held" a boundary and it went "textbook fashion"... .exactly how the "old timers" on here said it would... .that was massive for me.  It gave me hope... and energy to do more.

You will then hopefully get a sense of how much improvement can be done without your wife "having a vote".  Then you can see if she actually wants to improve.

This is a marathon... .not a sprint. 

You are obviously a person of deep faith and part of that faith is honoring your marriage.  That's going to take a while to work through.  I obviously hope for a good and healing outcome.  However, people that have eventually decided to split seem to feel better knowing they gave it a "full chance" and "left no stone unturned".

FF

I am in this period of learning and discernment myself. Although mine has been escalated somewhat by a recent suicide threat on the part of my wife and total dysregulation towards the children. My T after consulting with her T and our priest has suggested that I give an ultimatum. I am not sure what this looks like. He seemed to indicate either she goes to marriage and family counseling (she refuses to even talk to me- six months of almost complete silent treatment) or I file for legal separation. My priest seems to discourage the latter. I am trying to discern what is a strong enough ultimatum without triggering a massive extinction burst.
Lots of discernment in the queue for me this week. I don't think this will end well whatever decision I end up making.
I know legal separation is allowable under canon law. If this happens I intend on remaining celibate unless she seeks annulment or passes away; this is morally permissible in the Catholic Church. The only way I think we could receive an annulment is if she was in fact diagnosed, and it was shown she had BPD at the time of marriage, which means she would have to face her worst fear (that something is wrong with her), which may just be the only thing that brings us together again. As I'm typing this, I am starting to think this may be a solution. IDK. It's a conundrum for sure.

LongGame,

Can I encourage you to take several "smaller steps" towards an "ultimatum".  Can you put off making a decision for at least a month and focus on educating yourself (we can help) about what you face.

There are books and resources that we can share... .to help you "deliver" an ultimatum so it has a better chance of being "heard".

Thoughts?

I'll look for your other posts!

Best to you!

FF

This episode has been going on for almost exactly one year... .
We have a lot of children which makes it difficult.
She has created a narrative in her head which I think she truly believes, of which almost nothing is true. I have been painted black, and this has been the focus of this episode. She had a previous episode several years ago but she couldn't pinpoint a reason for wanting to leave; it was a lot of general fear around people out to get her and me not protecting her; we lived as brother and sister for many months and then she snapped out of it one day. There have been several interim episodes, some of which have been focused on other people.
This one though- this one is bad. I need to take action to protect the children as she has started to paint the older ones black because they see this for what it is. It is a full out distortion campaign.
I have read SWOE (and gone through the workbook in its entirety), I Hate You Don't Leave Me, Splitting, Loving Someone with BPD, the whole bit. I have been in therapy for the better part of a year, so has she. I have learned not to JADE and be validating.
She has shut me out completely, given me the silent treatment for the better part of 6-8 months, and the only times she talks to me are when she is exploding or asking for money. She has drained our bank account several times and has racked up a ton of debt. She is now dysregulating on the children. Severely. It is now crossing the line into abuse.
I am not sure an ultimatum is the best thing to do; I know it has the potential to make things worse, but she is making things worse all on her own and then blaming me and the kids for it.
I think I have done a good job taking steps to make things better but ultimately I am only in control of myself, my actions, and the steps I am taking to protect our children.
Spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and seeking good counsel is the way to go I believe, but ultimately I have to do something. Suggestions are welcome.

Hi Formflier and LongGame,

FF, thanks for encouraging the considered approach! This might be what I end up doing. I have some situational time constraints at the moment. BTW, I'm female - H is my husband - don't worry, I know I write like a man! My H said I address and solve problems like a man (a rare compliment), I skip the whole complaining and empathy step and dive straight for the solutions. Rational as you say. I'm pointing that out just in case you think the power balance in the marriage is different than what it actually is.

LongGame, did you check out the website I linked to? It is worthwhile. I have bought her book but not read it yet. The site indicates that you pretty much have to have attempted marriage counselling before getting a separation processed - though I guess that a flat out refusal by the other party would count as that. My MC said if they spot red flags in a joint session, like one party not taking responsibility for their own behavior, they would stop that anyway and recommend "separate work". So even if you feel that isn't going to be worthwhile to fix anything, you can think of it as extra evidence gathering by professionals, and it might not last long. I also read somewhere, maybe on that site, that as part of the annulment process you have the right to request a full psychological examination of the other party. I have pressed my contact for information on this, and there is no guarantee of an annulment for BPD, it goes on the weight of evidence. That *usually* includes expert testimony (medical) according to my contact, and also testimony from friends and family who knew you at the time of the marriage. I would like to have a guarantee before starting anything but we won't get it. I think this will have to be a matter of faith - you know the truth about the marriage and so does God, and the annulment process is carefully set up to get the truth out there.

Both, regarding ultimatums, I promised my (solo) marriage counsellor I'd post this week asking about what to say in the event of an emergency situation. I have never said seriously and explicitly to my H that there is any deep-rooted issue in the marriage or with his behavior, I've only ever made specific requests for a few important non-behavior related things I wanted, which typically provoked a bad reaction. He is not aware I now have a therapist, a marriage counsellor appointment, a Catholic marriage counsellor appointment pending, a book on annulments, four books on BPD, membership of this site, and a bunch of other online activity. I have also concealed all the payments for this, so the account and total he keeps in a spreadsheet for my personal expenditure (I tell him this verbally) is now pretty fraudulent. He is, to be fair, right that I am quite poor at handling money, and it probably won't be long before I slip up somewhere in my false accounting!

So I need to work out soon what to say if/when I'm busted - as you put it well LongGame, "what is a strong enough ultimatum without triggering a massive extinction burst." I don't know whether that would go inwards or outwards, both are possible. I'll likely only get one line out before the reaction starts (based on past experience) so I need to make it the right one. The best candidate seems to be something like "we have to get marriage counselling" but the obvious followup is "why", and then it can only escalate. My MC suggested explaining that I feel unhappy in the marriage, but I see little evidence that he would view my feelings as a valid reason for doing anything, and I'm more likely to get blamed for having them. An alternative is to lie (eg claim some other reason for the financial discrepancy if that's what is discovered, or put it just on the therapist for "my own issues" and buy some more time. I'll ask that on a separate thread anyway, with some suggestions.

BetterLanes x

Can you expand on the time constraints some... .they may or may not be relevant.

Sorry about getting the pronouns wrong.  It's always good to understand your natural way of approaching things, so you can be deliberate about working on your ability to use other approaches. 

FF

Thx BL; I did read through almost the entirety of the site you linked to; it is quite good and explains the truth of the Faith without compromise, which is rare in Catholic "divorce" media!
I did see what you mentioned about the counseling before separation. This is actually what my T recommended as Part 1 of the ultimatum; which he recommended I do with our priest present. We have been seeing a priest for MC since the inception of this episode but it has fallen off at the request of my wife for the past six months.
So much of this is actually behind us at this point; I have tried everything I think I can.
It's a lot to bear.

Might want to start a new thread to "inventory" what you have tried and your impression of what has worked or not worked.

What is the biggest success so far?  How did it affect the hope you have for your future?

FF

Formflier, no need to be sorry, I took that as a compliment too!

The time constraints were originally due to (1) needing to decide whether or not to sign up for participating in a local schools ministry for a further two years (deadline about August for deciding that), and (2) my daughter starting at a new school in September, so this summer being a good time to kick off any extreme changes in the relationship, particularly if there is the potential for those to lead to relocation. I've since added (3) various clandestine activities as mentioned above that may come to light at any point. And to be honest, (4) I doubt I can sit on all this much longer knowing what I now do. I really doubt we will get through this summer without some sort of a confrontation moment from either (3) or (4), and also this summer is the most convenient time for that to happen due to (1) and (2).

LongGame, that's interesting, I didn't know you could get MC directly from a priest. That might be an idea to try rather than waiting on Catholic Marriage Care any longer. I'd be interested too to read about what you have tried jointly, I have yet to try much of anything actually involving my H.

BetterLanes

Have I mentioned "love must be tough" by Dobson (google that will get you to Amazon)

I would encourage you to move that to the top of your reading list.

There is a spiritual element to it and much of it will likely strike you as counter intuitive.


I'm all for "confrontation", especially when you have prepared and are ready.  So... .if you think it's coming... .I encourage you to get ready.

Also... you never know when YOU will be the one ready to "start something"... again... get ready first and then be considerate of what works for you.

I wait on your response before adding more or asking more.

FF

Just to weigh in with my experience in obtaining my annulment. When over two decades of struggles with xW's inherited troubles began to spiral, I sought out the counsel of the priest who had officiated at my wedding.  Never one to sit one-on-one with clergy, I was nervous, but after a three hour conversation this attitude was changed forever. During the conversation, which was while I was still married,  Fr. B related the situation to a "train ride to a train wreck" and that it could be expected to get much worse.  He brought up the eventual process of nullity, which was probably the furthest thing from my mind at that time.   

Fast forward to xW filing for divorce, and that becoming final years later.  Devastated at losing my  family, my children to alienation (I've posted much on this subject prior), I visited my local church for information.  I met a bright, young priest who was well versed in psychological issues, including BPD.  There was no dogma involved, this was a very caring and practical effort.   I was put in touch with the "Tribunal" that handles annulments, and assigned an advocate  to guide me through the process. 

I can't tell you how supportive my advocate was, and how "positive" the nearly year-long process leading to my annulment was.  In fact, this was a major factor in me reconnecting with my faith,  an aspect of me that had been shunted aside along with friends, family etc., via the well-known impact of dancing on eggshells for so long.

When my petition was finally heard in the Canon court, there was a judge and a psychologist present.  Personality disorders were clearly in their area of expertise, so different from the experience I had in the Hell of Divorce court.   

Hi Stolen,

Thanks, that's really interesting! I'm sorry for what you've been through, I know it's harder for men in the divorce process. I'm really glad you got such good help from your local church. I'm keen to know more about your xW's involvement in the annulment process. Did your xW have a medical diagnosis when you went into the process? Had the psychologist interviewed her? Did she submit a response herself?

Hi Formflier,

Thanks, I've just ordered the book and I'll take a look ASAP! It does sound like it will be very helpful for managing a confrontation. I'll post soon too, hopefully later today or tomorrow, I promised my MC I would before our next call.

BetterLanes x

Hey... .I'll pass along some FF homework for you!  When you get the book... start a new thread about it here.  Post your observations and thoughts as you read... and your questions.

The book is not "about" BPDish people, but you will see lots of similarities.   So, when it comes time for "applications", I would encourage you to work through that with people on here to make sure "BPDish nuance" is added appropriately. 

I'm looking forward to what you have to say about the book... .it was very impactfull to me.

FF

Good idea Formflier! I actually ordered it on Kindle so it's waiting for me right now as soon as I can carve out some time. I think from what you and others have said about it I should read through it before picking out my best one-liner. I'll ask the MC if I can get an extension on her assignment to do yours first! :)

Yes the "BPDish nuance" is definitely going to be important and the reason why I want to run my ideas by the board. The MC made some suggestions for wording which I felt right away would be great for regular people but not work for BPs (they were based on my feelings, so not a valid argument for anything). I hope the book will get me nearer to some better ideas, and also point out some general principles of what it means (including spiritually) to allow unhealthy relationship dynamics to continue.

BL x

BPD nuance and "religion".

Most of this is so that you can actually be "heard" and you don't waste your effort in communications.

Now... .a preview for you and other "religious types".  Did God have lots to say about "being heard"?  Did he encourage people to take "the truth" and say it directly to a person?

Or...

Did God (via the Bible) encourage people to communicate their truth in a certain way... .or in a certain order?

What "principle" comes to mind?

FF

xW was alerted by the Tribunal at all major touch points of the process, and encouraged to comment.  She never communicated a single word. And she never had a medical Dx, since she also avoided those pesky doctors.

Hi Stolen,

Thanks, that's really encouraging. So you got your annulment without any involvement at all from xW based on the evidence only you presented, and with no diagnosis. It was also a long time between the marriage and the annulment for you, which is a concern for evidence gathering, but that aspect worked out. I read that the process was generally a positive experience and quite therapeutic for the participants and I'm glad that was the case for you!

BetterLanes x

Yes, over 26 years since wedding date, and zero input from xW.  So - how can you go back and show "pre-existing" issues that would invalidate a marriage?  Remember that nullity is not designed to wipe away a marriage-gone-bad, but a process to nullify a marriage that never should/could have been.   So how does this happen?

Like the process that gets discussed so often on this site - by looking at our role in the folie a deux and taking ownership of it.  Specifically, by showing "our" failure to execute due diligence to ensure the validity of the marriage.  In the lingua franca - revisiting the red flags of the past, and understanding how they relate/related to the resulting toxicity.

It wound of being a soul-searching deep dive, to come to the conclusion it could never have worked, regardless of how much dancing upon the eggshells was offered.   

The required witness statements certainly become a challenge after such a long time - how many family/friend relationships do you have that predated the wedding?  Don't let that dissuade you - you will be guided through this. 

And yes - a positive and therapeutic process to be sure.  But also one that will have you examine yourself, perhaps deeper than ever before.  Since we know so well - you can only fix yourself. 

Peace

Thanks Stolen! I remembered I didn't reply to you yet. I read and valued that very much. Thank you for the encouragement. I soon need to tell the whole story to a suitable priest and get his advice like you did. The priest who officiated at our wedding has actually left the priesthood now, my canon law contact is a busy guy and not local so I doubt he could do that, and I don't want to talk to the parish priest just yet since my H and I are both active in the church. I was hoping Catholic Marriage Care could do this but that hasn't happened yet. If push comes to shove it will have to be our parish priest.

BetterLanes x

I'm curious... .why not talk to the parish priest?

I would think he would be interested in the "health" of marriages in his parish.  Perhaps he can also push some of the other processes to go faster.

Thoughts?

FF

My thought?  I am all for going local - I was introduced to the concept by "my" priest of 20+ years ago, but the process was all initiated and executed locally, with clerical and lay people who I had never met prior.  This will not be new to them, I found the modern Church to be well versed in the challenges of society... . 

Hi Formflier and Stolen,

I guess because the parish priest is a "real person" who we both know. Nobody at all in our joint lives knows yet that I have any complaint about the marriage. It's only been six weeks or so since I let myself look at this as an issue that I could actually work on by my own actions (rather than just God's problem to sort out somehow at the right time, which is also happening on schedule, but I hadn't expected there was a way for that to involve my actions).

I haven't talked to any "real people" for a variety of reasons. Pride is a chunk of it I expect. It's embarrassing to describe the interactions in the relationship and to be someone that tolerates them, and it's embarrassing to ask for help when I try so hard to project the image of a competent and strong person.

Also, I would have to be convinced enough that I'm right to have a problem at all, which I find it hard to do having been so long in the relationship. I have previous for crazy. Talking to a "real person" requires me to be sufficiently convinced that the problem is not only in my head and my character as I'm told.

Also, I have the idea that I could use the fact of not having told any "real people" as a bargaining chip to try to calm my H down in a confrontation and give him a reason to behave calmly and rationally. I don't know if this would work, but it's the only chip I can think of that might matter to him in a conflict situation - it would make it easier for him to believe that I have the problem just in my head and he needn't accept anything right away.

Also, I have always had a very fundamental conviction that other humans can't or won't or don't want to help me with my problems, which my marriage has only served to reinforce. That is starting to break down now mainly thanks to you all here, but it is still a big driver for my behaviors and attitudes.

Also, I feel like if I tell a "real person" that is a very final irrevocable step and I might as well have decided to get a divorce, especially if my H becomes aware I have done that. It feels like I can't go back from there and like it will precipitate a huge crisis. It's the scary step. My H is very angry and stressed and quite cold at the moment with kind of a mean edge to his comments and behaviors. My MC says I am probably "leaking" in terms of my feelings and attitudes so my H knows on some level there is something going on, but nothing is explicit at the moment. I need to maintain that for another two weeks for my D to finish school. So I have a couple more weeks to identify the right "real person" and a couple more sessions with each of the T and MC to get some additional support that I'm not the crazy one.

BetterLanes x

BetterLanes,

We think very much alike.  I have memories of not wanting to tell others.  Once I read SWOE and realized this type of behavior is much more common that I could have imagined... .that helped... somewhat.

I'm going to assume that you've been around lots of priests... right?  Where would you "rank" your current "real person" priest? 

I have a few thoughts for you to consider... .

You seem like a very logical... rational person.  That's good in many respects.  I think... that you are overthinking the disorder to try to "keep" bargaining chips. 

The logical and rational impact of his actions is that you tell.  He gets to feel how he feels.  And you get to be "upfront" with people and perhaps come across sources of help that you hadn't considered.

However this relationship turns out for you (and for me to be upfront with you... .I'm rooting for you and the relationship to "turn the corner" to something better).

The logical and rational impact of seeking help and involving others (appropriately) is that manytimes situations get better.  I can remember me "not wanting" things to get better and then other times wanting it more than anything in the world.  Right now I'm "hopeful yet realistic".

The logical and rational impact of involving others is it will force choices and clarify things (over time).

I'm certainly interested in your responses but a preview of my thoughts is I want to build you a support system of "real people".  Some of those "real people" will "know" about your reality and others will be people you enjoy.

There is only one way to figure out where your priest is... .or should be.  I think you will find the conversation liberating...


FF

Hi Formflier,

Thanks, I do really appreciate your support! The parish priest is a good guy, and I'm sure he would want to know. I know it's logical and rational to get this out in the open. Two more weeks and I have a good clear space to do that. I don't doubt that the T and the MC will tell me next week to do the same (I've told them both we have to stop sessions for the summer and that will be their last session for the meantime). The concerns are for my side, that I haven't had long to fully internalize the fact that I have "permission" to do this and may cave when it comes to the moment, and for my H's side, that he has very, very little emotional resilience and may act out or in in a more extreme way than previously observed. I have wondered about enlisting a "real person" to actually be physically present for the conversation, which would help to deal with both of those concerns. I don't know to what extent that would help, or just cause another problem.

BetterLanes x

I can't imagine how "real people" would "really" hurt.

Don't buy into disordered thinking... .

FF

From Formflier on another thread


Thanks FF - you have again identified one of the key issues in my situation.

I think the issue is that it is my own attempts to interpret the Bible, from a Bible-believing perspective, that got me into the mental situation I was in prior to discovering about BPD and what was going on (a couple of months ago). Specifically, the combination of these inputs
(1) My own Bible reading and study
(2) Christian reading materials, mainly Baptist/conservative US for practical application (esp. Chuck Swindoll), plus C.S.Lewis and similar classics
(3) My knowledge of the advertised parts of Catholic doctrine around marriage, divorce, and annulments
(4) My own and my H's psychological issues and attitudes
had led me to conclude that marriage was indissoluble and that the only way out of my one was death or the Rapture. None of the grounds for Scriptural splitting as mentioned by Chuck in Dobson's book (conversion after marriage, adultery, abandoning unbeliever) or the grounds for Catholic annulment that are reasonably commonly known (non-consummation, preventing the other party practising the faith, entering the marriage with the intent not to have children) applied to my marriage. I had already thrown it all up to God as the fixer of impossible things - Jeremiah 32:17  Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee.

So now arrives the idea that BPD could well be the key issue in the marriage and that you can get an annulment for BPD. This concept has showed up about two months ago like (to reuse Enabler's picture) a magical unicorn shaking its rainbow mane on the lawn of my theology. The annulment unicorn showed up
(a) Unexpectedly from an unanticipated source
(b) At the precise time I was expecting God was waiting for to act on the issue (suitable point to end involvement with my local ministry if needed)
(c) Explaining all the stuff I thought was wrong and strange in my marriage
(d) Offering an exact solution to my exact problem
This definitely has to be God's solution, right? Revelatory, on time, fixes everything. Jump on the unicorn and ride away. But a big but: Unicorns and annulments are nowhere to be found in a literal reading of the plain sense of Scripture. I can totally see how the concept makes sense psychologically, is useful socially, is a great way to increase your church membership, and absolves you of guilt spiritually. What I don't know is whether it is Scriptural. I am rarely one to conclude that an intellectual discussion is above my pay grade but here I have to concede. I really don't know if annulments for BPD can be easily traced back to the Bible, or if they are one of the Catholic teachings that are a logical outworking of some other set of concepts but can't really be traced back to Scripture (e.g. Purgatory) or even contradict the plain sense of the Bible (e.g. Mary having had no other children after Jesus). I haven't been able to read Rose Sweet's book on annulments yet but I hope to this week, perhaps she will explain.

So here I currently stand, staring at this magical unicorn and wanting very much for it to be sent by God to help me out. What I do know is that the Catholic Church very specifically is the owner of the unicorn and no other source is likely to be able to justify its existence to me and convince me that it can help me. This therefore is why I am keen to talk to a priest or similarly qualified person about it. Hopefully that can happen soon. I completely agree that making one's decision on the basis of one's own considered reading of Scripture, and running it by a Bible-believing pastor or house group, is the best course. Unfortunately I had gotten myself into a thought hole and didn't have a pastor or Christian friends that I felt able to approach about it. I feel like my best shot at the moment is to figure out the nature of the unicorn and go from there.

Hope that clarifies! Thanks again for your insight.

BetterLanes x

BL,

I, too, have seen this magical unicorn. Coming from a fairly informed Catholic perspective, it makes perfect sense to me and seems totally justified and in accord with Catholic doctrine, and doesn’t contradict the scriptures.

The funny thing is, now that I have the option, I have come to find out that I don’t want it anymore.

Someone mentioned on these forums a little while ago that having the option and the freedom to get out places things in perspective and helps us figure out what we really want. I think it’s true. I believe you mentioned something a while back about the same phenomenon in reference to an OM. For me, I decided not to give the ultimatum I was considering a while back. The freedom to consider it a possibility made me realize it was not something I wanted to choose.

Pope John Paul II defined freedom as the ability to choose that which good. I think he was right.

God gives us what we need for our sanctification, and sometimes it doesn’t make sense why. Job wasn’t part of the discussion between Satan and God when all that crap started happening to him. But he was faithful. For me, I realize now my wife is very sick. My vows were “in sickness and in health”. The problem is, the sickness isn’t palpable or measureable with a white blood cell count or a fever. It’s an emotional sickness and it is an emotional gun pointed right at me. And her. And our children. It is a sickness nonetheless. I’m just trying to figure out the right medicine and how to administer it. You all are helping a lot.

My wife has given me the silent treatment for nine straight months. She won’t talk to me. She has painted me blacker than black. And it messed with me pretty badly for a long time, until one day in confession my priest said something that struck me. He said “you know what your problem is? Your problem is that you don’t know how much God loves you.” He was right. My penance was to go home and ask God to show me how much He loves me. He did. It doesn’t matter how much my wife loves me, it matters how much Jesus Christ does. And that love is infinite. The amount of grace He gives us in this suffering we are experiencing is amazing.

I’m not saying one way or another which is the right choice, just sharing where I’m at right now.

And if all else fails, I’m trying to laugh a bit more. On that note, here is a funny, totally inappropriate excerpt from “Crazy Ex Girlfriend” to make y’all laugh... .https://youtu.be/9Rtvwu75K3I

Hey... can you expand on the reasoning to get the annulment or for Catholics to grant it.  I'm very curious on the "grounds".

I'm not Catholic, so trying to learn some here.

FF

Sure. For Catholics, marriage is a sacrament, which is defined as a sign instituted by Christ to confer grace.
In order for a sacrament to exist, there has to be two parts, the matter and the form. The matter is the “stuff” the sacrament is made of. For marriage, this is a man and a woman. For the Eucharist (communion), it’s bread and wine. The form is the words that are said (for the Eucharist it’s “this is my body”, for matrimony it’s the vows.
If either the matter or form is missing, the sacrament is invalid. For instance, if a priest took a Snickers bar and said “this is my body” over it, no dice. It’s not the Eucharist. The matter is wrong. If he took bread and wine and said “let’s have lunch”, no dice. The form is wrong.

In the case of marriage, there are a few things that must be in order before it is valid. One of these is that the man and the woman must be properly disposed and have the right intent to confer the sacrament (in the case of matrimony the man and woman are ministers of the sacrament to each other). If a mental illness is determined to be present at the time that the vows were said, it could mean that the marriage was never deemed a sacrament because they may have been acting out of the illness when they took the vows. The sacrament could be deemed null. That’s what an annulment is. There are other things too, like if a person was already married they can’t get married again, the vows would be invalid.

There is a lot to it, hopefully that helps a tiny bit.

Thanks LongGame and FF! I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees unicorns :)

LongGame, I know what you mean about the difference in how it feels to have a choice. It sounds like one difference between us is that you are getting regular spiritual counselling and in-person help to deal with what's going on. I was taught that confession was something for confessing your own sins and getting spiritually cleared of them, but I didn't really think there was any more in-depth and personalized help available. I think that would have improved my situation. I have very much experienced God's love and care directly, which helps a lot as you say. I'm glad this board is helping you too.

Thanks for the explanation about the sacrament, I didn't hear that before (and will remember it for the Snickers bar!). There is surely a lot more to it than I had heard before starting to investigate. Formflier, this is a good quote from Rose Sweet's website to add some examples to what LongGame explained:
 www.catholicsdivorce.com/Annulment

Catholic annulment addresses the possible invalidity of the marriage due to defective consent.This means when the couple said "I do" maybe one of them really didn't mean it fully, or was unable to live up to it for some very serious reason. ... .

The Church presumes (and defends) every marriage bond as being valid until proved otherwise. Despite heartfelt and good intentions, some people simply aren't able to live up to the vows they exchange, due perhaps to an addiction, severe immaturity, or some grave pressure such as an out-of-wedlock pregnancy. Some have reserved the option of divorce even though they hope it never happens. That reservation invalidates their "I do", changing it to "I do... .only certain conditions". And there's more. 

What could make a marriage invalid?
Defective consent involves: Who, what, when, how, and why you said "I do".The Church recognizes - in her wisdom- that some people just aren’t capable of entering into a valid union ... .like some children are not capable enough to drive a car even though their feet reach the pedals and they really want to drive. Some people who attempt to marry are extremely immature and--in a sense--may truly be unable to marry the way the Church requires.

And the church also recognizes—with the same love of justice and desire for mercy as Jesus—that imperfect people enter into what are called “attempted marriages”. Despite their good intent, their best efforts, and maybe a very long time, something vital was missing or in the way that prevented a true marriage bond from forming on their wedding day.

Like what? Maybe one spouse was married before and not free to marry again. Or one was grossly immature, under age, under grave fear or pressure to marry (shotgun weddings), severely addicted, or refused to remain open to the gift of children.  These are areas where the union can't reflect the free, total, faithful, fruitful love of the Bridegroom for His Bride and therefore can not be valid.

>> BL notes: BPD and other personality disorders and mental illnesses fall into the category of defective consent due to emotional immaturity. The idea is that due to the disorder the person didn't have the necessary maturity with respect to interpersonal relationships to understand the responsibilities of marriage and give a free and adult consent to it. As LongGame says, it has to be something that was present at the time of the wedding (or at least the basis of it, if symptoms aren't obvious then) rather than something that developed later on. So for example you couldn't get an annulment because your partner developed dementia in later life. Because personality disorders are considered to be lifelong they can be used (and also abused, I read) as evidence for an annulment.

I did also run "refused to remain open to the gift of children" past my canon law contact, due to my H's biologically incapacitating fear of procreation when the question arose, but he said this one probably won't fly after you actually have had a child.

BetterLanes x

Very interesting.

I think I've said it before... I'm a process guy.  Catholics seem to have process down pretty good.

At one of my commands, my Chaplain was Catholic.  It was fascinating to have discussions with him "about the way things work" in the Catholic church.

Where I grew up (mountains of Appalachia) there was 1 Catholic church in the county.  54 Baptist churches.  About 11,000 people (to put that in context).  Also... there was 1 Methodist, 1 (fill in the blank).


Anyway... back to process.  My hope is this process is something you "can withdraw from" at the last moment, should things change. 

I would recommend going full speed ahead until you get to the last step and then have a period of thought, reflection and prayer.

Also... .to make sure there is a clear period of time where your spouse understand there are two pathways... and he gets to choose which one to walk down as well.

FF

BL, great example with dementia, that is a helpful way to look at it. Also, there is the presumption of validity as you clearly stated- the Church always assumes good intent and that the marriage is in fact valid. The only time this is ever looked at is if one of the parties asks for it.

I do have regular spiritual direction and a prayer team of 20 or so people that have been praying a near constant novena since October 2017 for our marriage. We communicate daily via a WhatsApp message. Just last night I blasted them asking for prayer as I am not sure I can take it anymore. I know some of them met at midnight at the adoration chapel to pray. I know this is a great blessing. Even with support like this it is difficult to keep going.

If you don't have access to a spiritual director, I have two book recommendations for you (besides Scripture; that one is a given). The first one is "Interior Freedom" by Jacques Philippe. It is an amazing book on allowing yourself to experience the love of God in any circumstance. The second is the Diary of Saint Faustina (Divine Mercy in my Soul). These two books have helped me immensely over the past year or so in my walk. Also, almost all priests offer spiritual direction- but you have to ask them. It's not something that's ever publicized or advertised, because of the time it takes to do it. If you have a priest you feel would make a good spiritual director- go ahead and ask him- chances are he would be available. It doesn't have to be a priest, either- there are lots of deacons and lay people trained in spiritual direction. This link may help too: www.jenniferfulwiler.com/2009/01/how-to-find-a-spiritual-director/ (http://www.jenniferfulwiler.com/2009/01/how-to-find-a-spiritual-director/)

FF- you can always stop the annulment process up until it is finalized. It's not something the Church wants to do necessarily- it is there if needed in extreme circumstances. It can even be put on pause for a while. It's more like a service than a court of law, if that makes sense.

Thanks FF and LG.

Formflier, a significant issue with the annulment process is that (in England anyway) it has to be *preceded* by a civil divorce, proving that the marriage has already broken down irretrievably. Like with Stolen earlier on this thread. What I'm doing by looking at it now is not normal, typically you would divorce and then enter the process when you wanted to remarry or make valid an existing second marriage. (If you ever did bother - I think quite a number of divorced Catholics just leave the Church.) I'm trying to see whether the marriage I am currently in is actually valid, which is not a usual thing to do. Frankly it feels spiritually and psychologically very much like it isn't. But I can't actually even get into the official process to find out without making my own decision first to end the marriage irretrievably. All I can do for now is as LG suggests getting spiritual direction for input on whether that would be a good idea. A friend who ended up with a divorce (not of her initiating) and annulment had spiritual direction and found it helpful.

LongGame,
LongGame,

This raises an issue that Jackie59 highlighted from his discussion about the rights and wrongs of the situation from a non-Catholic Christian perspective. About enabling someone to sin. I have concerns around this. All of the SO's of the people on this board are sick, that's very true. To what extent does that absolve them of responsibility for their actions? It's a difficult question. I don't know whether you have tried to confront your wife over her actions and what her response was (I haven't tried with my H really at all yet). I assume if she is not talking to you she is also choosing not to do other things you could reasonably expect a wife to do, and she probably qualifies as abusing you, at least emotionally. What level of responsibility does she have for that before God? To what extent should we be allowing our SO's to continue with their sinful actions and just working on our own tolerance of them? I know her mental state impairs her ability to choose to do what is right regarding the relationship, but is she so impaired that it is unreasonable for you to take any further action (going back to the dementia example again, where that clearly would be unreasonable)?

As far as I can see there are four options I have (where confront means to start a discussion about problems in the marriage):
(1) Leave the relationship, then confront my H with the issues.
(2) Confront with the intention and/or threat to leave.
(3) Confront with the intention and/or promise to stay.
(4) Stay in the relationship, don't confront, and use tools on this board to manipulate the relationship for incremental improvements.

(1) and (4) both seem morally wrong to me. They both remove the possibility of a rational choice from my H. Whether he has the capability to override his emotional response enough to make that rational choice, though, I just don't know. How do these options look to you? Is (4) what you are doing or has there been some confrontation already?

Also, I wonder how might your assessment differ if you were a female in the situation you are in and receiving the treatment you are getting from your partner? The power balance in the relationship spiritually and physically is important and different. AFAIU being the male partner has positive effects (e.g. you are on average physically safer) and negative effects (e.g. you are less likely to get responsibility for children in the event of a breakup). I wonder what your priest would say to you about this relationship in confession if you were a female, compared to what he says to you as a man.

BetterLanes x

^^ Probably about 75 per cent of this is me projecting, LongGame. I didn't get time to edit yesterday. So please don't take this as criticism of your current standpoint. I am concerned about your situation though as you are at the point you are not sure if you can continue. It sounds like how I worry my relationship would be after any kind of confrontation.

I just sent an email to the diocesan Marriage and Family Life project worker asking if she could help me to get confidential Catholic marriage advice in the form of a phone call with an expert for a couple of hours. I read the link you posted about spiritual directors and very nearly called the parish office to ask about it, but I hesitated and did the above instead, because I realised the questions I would be bringing to the spiritual director would not be anything like the questions in that article, and it would be fairer to ask for a specialist (I requested "a Catholic with knowledge of marriage and relationships and psychological issues". Possibly this is me dodging the "real people" issue again. I'll see if I get a response soon.

BetterLanes x

BL,

No offense taken! I didn't get a chance to post yesterday either.
In the beginning of this episode (current episode has been going on for 1 year), there was plenty of confrontation and discussion, usually in front of our priest. That has long since gone and now it is just complete silent treatment and her ignoring me.

Currently I am at the #3 scenario. I have set really clear boundaries and expressed my intent to stay. She ignores me, literally no interaction. This is what is so frustrating because there is zero progression on any front.

I ask myself the same question- where does the sickness end and the responsibility for her actions begin? I realize I will probably never have an answer to this question. I know it's not my job to decide if her actions are sinful or not; only the Lord can judge her culpability from a moral standpoint. So what can I do? As far as I can see, I can (a) remain close to the Lord and make sure my actions are in accord with His Word, and (b) not judge her culpability while setting strong boundaries to protect the children and me from the consequences of her actions. In other words, from my standpoint it is irrelevant if she is sinning in all of this, but it is extremely relevant if her actions are harmful, and I need to address her actions as opposed to her intent. For now I am focused on providing for my children, focusing on the next school year, and spending time with them. Also just keeping up the house as she has not felt it necessary to contribute in that regard in any way, shape, or form... .Basically I have zero expectations of her and live as a single dad in the same house with my wife. She leaves as soon as I get home every weeknight and weekend, and shows up after the kids are all put to bed.

From a spiritual standpoint, this is a gift from God. I am forced to rely upon Him for every.single.thing. Each.moment.of.every.day.

This is a gift. This is exactly what He asks of me and I don't think I would have ever realized this if things were peachy between my bride and me. And I know my wife turns to Him as well, constantly, sickness or no sickness. So this suffering is bringing us both closer to Him in some deep mysterious manner.

So glad you reached out to the diocese. Keep us posted! I will pray.

-LongGame

Hi LongGame,

Praying for you and your troubles as well! That sounds so hard, your wife has basically disengaged completely from your married life. It's lovely though that you can see how you are both growing spiritually in this process. I know I have and I think my H has benefited spiritually from our marriage too.

The lady from the diocese office actually replied already, which is great. She has given me the contact details for someone to talk to who is currently on holiday, so I won't be able to talk till the week after next, which suits me as next week is likely to be mostly radio silence from me.

One thing besides the question of responsibility that I find it hard to wrap my head around is applying the concept of annulments to someone currently in a marriage. Particularly regarding their retrospective nature. I don't have a real handle on how this works, do you? This is a key difference between a Catholic annulment and a Baptist/similar divorce. The latter usually means basically there was a Christian marriage that was spoiled by sin (except in the splitting after conversion or departing unbeliever cases). The former means basically there was never a sacramental Catholic marriage at all.

So if you or I were to get an annulment in the future, spiritually that will apply retrospectively and mean we are not married now, as we are typing up these posts, right? It would mean we are in "attempted marriages" (and I can see you are attempting yours very thoroughly). What does this mean for God's grace in our marriages? Does it mean God is looking after us all as individuals, but not as such planning to improve or fix or sanctify or bless the actual marriages? If it is a sacramental marriage, it can get better, right? If it is an attempted marriage, can it get better or not? How can we know without going through the annulment process (to determine whether the marriage is sacramental) whether the right choice is to stay (in a sacramental marriage) or to leave (from an attempted marriage)? This is why I have a problem with the irretrievable breakdown and divorce having to come first (with a reduced level of indignation about that now I know it isn't actually classed as a sin in that situation). Really, it's a church-permitted separation with guided attempts at reconciliation that comes first in the process, but I worry that for a pwBPD that will be a huge deal and possibly finalizing in itself.

Also I wonder about what are our rights and obligations as the "aware" parties who know that an annulment could be a possibility. I don't know if your wife knows this, does she? Maybe she does if you have discussed with a priest. My H I assume does not. For a pwBPD there is the difficult obstacle of having to acknowledge the BPD in order to obtain the annulment, although having now skimmed Rose Sweet's book I think I would actually have grounds in my own right for defect of consent due to immaturity and various teenage issues. Do I have any kind of moral duty to discuss my feelings and findings with my H? Again for a pwBPD this action might be finalizing.

Let me know if any of this has also crossed your mind and what you thought about it!

BetterLanes x

BL,

So glad the diocese was able to contact you so quickly; I pray spiritual direction brings a lot of peace to your situation.

Regarding the very interesting questions you posed- the Church always assumes a valid marriage and only investigates annulment at the request of one or both of the spouses. So right now, there is no sin.
If an annulment was granted at some point in the future, again, no sin, and the children from that union are legitimate. Going back to the old Catechism days, what are the three conditions for a (mortal) sin? Grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. If you entered into a marriage in good faith and then that marriage was nullified, you would be missing the "full knowledge" part of these conditions. So no culpability... .Also, we as married persons questioning the validity of our marriages should echo the Church's position and assume it is a valid union- because it very well could be. So our actions should reflect the fact that we are married.

In my case regarding your last paragraph- my wife has yelled at me (in front of our priests) several times that she wants a divorce and an annulment. Our priests are students of JPII's Theology of the Body and know all the ins and outs- they maintain it is valid. Just because it doesn't feel valid or we don't want it to be doesn't nullify the union! So they never go there- they just deal with the emotion at the time and move on. They are a good example for me. In my case, I have no desire to seek divorce or annulment; my spouse does. But in typical BPD fashion, she hasn't done anything to push it forward- I think she wants me to take action to save face for her. Also, I can't read her mind but I suspect she doesn't really want it, I think it gets blurted out when she is feeling it just like any other emotion. Her feelings are harder to read now that she hasn't spoken to me in nine months, but one would guess after nine months she would have done something if she was thinking about it... .So I don't feel a responsibility to discuss it with her, quite the opposite. You may feel differently though as your case is different than mine. But I don't think it is a moral issue either way, I consider it more of a discernment issue predicated upon the individuals involved and the circumstances therein.

Hi LongGame,

Thanks, that's interesting! I think you are right about it being a discernment issue, that's why I'm looking for some in-depth church advice.

I didn't realise it was your wife who had raised the idea of an annulment. So your priests knowing all the evidence actually think the marriage is valid, correct? I wasn't quite clear if you meant that or if you meant they think her request for an annulment is valid. If the priests think she couldn't get an annulment and your spouse knows that, that might be a very important factor in her behavior. She would then be in the same thought trap as I was, thinking the marriage is indissoluble and unimprovable (which would be the case if you were in fact as bad as you say she thinks you are). My response in that situation was to wait on God to provide a solution by some kind of unknown future change in the situation that He initiated, which was what did in fact happen. Maybe this could be what your wife is doing? It sounds like she is taking actions of extreme detachment from the emotions and practicalities of the marriage as well, which I guess as the BP partner she feels she can do, because you are the caretaker after all. I couldn't do that response of detachment to that extent, but it's definitely been there on the inside, and to a small extent on the outside.

Regarding sin, yes, I'm not at all suggesting staying in the marriage is sinful. I can see that it's a righteous choice to make. I also do understand that our actions need to reflect the current fact of a formally unchallenged marriage, and I've done that under some provocation, as you have. My canon law contact took a moment to clarify this too. I guess the questions I've been asking since discovering I might have a choice about the situation, are to try to confirm the reality of that choice (essentially, would I get an annulment?) and also the rightness in practical and spiritual terms of each option, and their possible consequences. If for example I chose to stay in the marriage and take the Church's position of assuming the marriage is valid as you say, does my choice itself make the marriage valid and sacramental? I guess this is the heart of what I don't know - is there some objective way in which my marriage is invalid and not sacramental, or is it truly valid and sacramental all the time both spouses choose to claim it is? I've just checked and the canon law indicates the latter regarding consent, which is interesting -

Can.  1159 §1. A marriage which is invalid because of a defect of consent is convalidated if the party who did not consent now consents, provided that the consent given by the other party perseveres.
§2. If the defect of consent cannot be proven, it is sufficient that the party who did not consent gives consent privately and in secret.
§3. If the defect of consent can be proven, the consent must be given in canonical form.

So we're back to discernment and church advice, because I don't feel qualified to make that kind of choice as an individual without expert advice. I'll think it over for a bit myself as well!

BetterLanes x

BL,

To clarify my statement earlier, yes the priests think the marriage is valid. She has accused them of "making" her stay in the marriage because of this. I know she feels trapped. I would too in her shoes, if any of the things she claims I have done were true. The only problem is, they aren't true. From my standpoint, she is reacting to a narrative she has created out of thin air and to be honest, that is where my heart goes out to her.

She is definitely trying to push me to make a move, my T pointed this out to me. It would save face for her if she could create a self fulfilling prophecy and remain the victim.

This canon law stuff can get confusing. The one thing to keep in mind is that all of it points back to the day you took your vows. Anything after that is irrelevant to the decree of nullity. What the Church is trying to do in the paragraphs you quoted (in my opinion) is to try and bring the vows up to speed with the actions that may have occurred after the vows were taken. She (the Church) is trying to preserve the sanctity of the marriage at all costs. So if there was a defect of consent at the time the vows were taken, an act of consent afterwards at some point could initiate the sacrament. That's what I am reading into the canon law. I'm no lawyer though!

Thanks LongGame! Yes I also think that quote is about validating the marriage if there was some defect originally. I think I'm just (a) overthinking this and (b) trying to reverse engineer what is the theoretically "correct" decision to make in my situation in order to avoid having to be responsible for it myself. :) Marriages are hard and complicated and the Church does now get this to an extent (Amoris Laetitia) but it's still a very new thing and I think the level of service isn't yet in place really.

I'll pray for your wife as well as for you. There's a part of me that still thinks my own narrative (as BetterLanes has posted here) is not the one to believe, and the positive narrative I've previously tried to impose on the situation is the one to believe. I meant actually to ask my T in our last session if she thought I showed any signs of a personality disorder or some other mental health diagnosis (it can be either party's defect of consent, right?), but I forgot, I will next time. My MC was kind enough to say she doesn't think I do! I can see how it would be horrible for a pwBPD to be locked into their own negative blaming narrative. Do you have any idea what she does with her time when she is out? When my H occasionally pitches a fit and walks out, he doesn't do anything meaningful as far as I know, I don't think he takes any money. I think he probably just walks around.

BetterLanes x

BL,

I think the hard thing for me is I believe the Church does get it (think JPII's Theology of the Body); I'm the one who is resisting her teaching... .in other words, the road is narrow and I want it to be wide, I want the Church to step in and tell me what to do sometimes. That would make it easy. But the Church isn't like that, she respects our freedom and free will. In other words, it's my responsibility to follow the Gospel!

Thanks for the prayers. I will pray for you as well, especially regarding you approaching your T.
I don't know what my wife does, besides shopping and Adoration.

Update - the lady suggested by the diocese office is not able to help me. She says she only does counselling face to face in order to get a better therapeutic relationship. That's that then I guess. No stranger is going to go ahead and tell me the right thing to do :)

It was pretty clear from her reply that I didn't come across enough like a victim in my email. I think this is a chunk of my problem. I hate self-identifying as a victim and try to project competence and coping. That and thinking the marriage was indissoluble also made me minimize and never catalogue the various issues in the relationship that could be categorized as abusive (there I go again). I've been trying not to take the approach, which I know is viable for me as a female, of going to some suitable real-life person and claiming domestic abuse and dropping into a victim role and letting them sort it all out on my behalf, poor me. I can't decide what I dislike most between that idea and the idea of talking to my H about it.  I just don't know if there is a point in time or a state of his mind where he would be able to make reasonably clear rational decisions about the matter, or if that's never going to be the case. I wondered about doing talking to him last night when he was in a very cold sulky mood to see if he would make a decision based on that mood. We have a holiday booked in three weeks and with the current state of things that would probably be quite unpleasant. I'm pretty stuck, it has to be said.

BetterLanes x

Is this not possible?

Any chance you can post her email here with appropriate redactions?

Said another way... .I think her response is appropriate.  If it was me, I wouldn't do half measures.  Either counsel in person... or skip it.

What am I missing here?

FF

Sorry Formflier, I gave insufficient detail there I think! My original request specified I wasn't looking for long-term counselling/therapy, just a quick expert interaction. I think she misunderstood though and thought I was looking for the former. I work at home and don't drive so it's very unlikely I could attend a face to face appointment. Certainly not before the end of the summer as my D is home.

The request part of my email was:

I would like to get confidential advice from a Catholic with knowledge of marriage and relationships and psychological issues. This is what I was hoping to get from Catholic Marriage Care but haven’t. Ideally that would be a phone call probably for a couple of hours.

The reply was:

I am so sorry to read of your concerns and from what you have written can appreciate how difficult and complex this must be for you.  Seeking the right sort of help and support is so important as you are clearly trying to do, which, although not always easy, is a good thing as it can help to gain support and clarity.    Unfortunately, I have to say that although I do sometimes offer counselling via Skype/Googlehangouts and on some occasions via the telephone, I only offer this when it follows on from some face to face sessions.  This is because, in my experience, I feel a better therapeutic relationship is developed in those initial face to face sessions. ... .
Based on the information in your email it is important that I let you know ASAP that a telephone session/s is unfortunately not something I am able to offer.  That said, I can see that you are resourceful, and, looking after yourself and getting the support you deserve and need is something you are rightly striving for in order to get the best outcome for you.  Also, that you are approaching this from a faith perspective is clearly something that is rightly important to you and I wish you well for the future.

- I didn't reply yet but I probably should soon. I am inclined just to quit with that line of inquiry here and call it having made a reasonable attempt to get advice and assistance from people who my H won't encounter in the normal course of his activities. I'm not seeing the T or the MC again till after the summer so apart from you great people here it seems like I'm going to be on my own with this until I involve a "real person" now.

BetterLanes x 

This is tough. The waiting part, I mean. I can empathize for certain; it seems like the name of the game (for me anyway) is wait and cope.
My T told me one time it is OK to just... .sit with things for a while. I was kind of taken back when he said that but realize it is pretty wise. Kind of like Saint Ignatius in the Spiritual Exercises when he says the best action in a time of desolation is inaction. Never make a decision in desolation! Wait until you are in a good head space and make decisions then, and stick with them when you are in the trenches.
That's my game plan anyway... .:)

Here is a proposed response:

Thanks for the information.  Much of this is new to me.  I'm limited in transportation, but can occasionally get rides/ubers (perhaps modify this some) to attend necessary functions.

Is it possible to set an appointment soon so we can have a face to face meeting?  :)uring that meeting I would like to better understand the services you offer and I hope you can gain a better understanding of my situation to make a judgment regarding the appropriateness of the help you offer.

Best,

Better Lanes


What do you think of that?

Here is the FF big picture.   I think you owe it to yourself to spend an hour with this person with a list of questions and some highlights of your situation.  Just lay it out there.

Then... let this person consider things for a few days and you can consider things for a few days and decide if there is something here worth pursuing.

What I read is... .if you will put out the effort to come see me... .I'll work with you via chat/skype/phone.

IN FFs therapeutic relationship about 75% is in person and then sometimes based on my T's needs and sometime mine... .we talk use the phone or other means.

Thoughts?

FF

Thanks LongGame and Formflier!

FF, I think it would be a good idea to ask about whether something can be arranged face to face. I think it would be good to talk to her. I'll send a reply later on today and see if anything can be done.

LG, I agree it would be good to further improve my headspace before making decisions! I suspect I'm about out of time for that though. My H has developed a really nasty and cold edge lately and I think we are both giving each other a touch of the ST. I feel like what's happening now actually is what I've been waiting for and I am pretty much out of options to progress it other than speaking up to a real person. I wonder if that is the point.

We have a family holiday booked in three weeks and I don't honestly know how that's going to go. I don't know whether to "say something" before that or after that, and if I decide on the latter, I think there's a fair chance of something happening during, with the amount of alcohol freely available! Actually, my H is more pleasant and calmer when he is drinking, I guess it relieves the anxiety. I on the other hand get braver, less inhibited, and also super annoying (even compared to usual). I suspect this will be a dangerous cocktail :) On the plus side, that would be a public setting with lots of other people around who could (a) assist with any immediate problems and (b) never see us again. And it would give us something to talk about!

BetterLanes x

Oh, found the one more book I absolutely have to read before making my move 

The Emotionally Destructive Marriage: How to Find Your Voice and Reclaim Your Hope
by Leslie Vernick
from the writeup:
 
You can’t put it into words, but something is happening to you. Your stomach churns, your heart aches, and the tension in your marriage is making you feel weary and a little crazy. The constant criticism, disrespect, cruelty, deceit, and gross indifference are eroding your confidence and breaking your spirit.   
 
For any woman caught in an emotionally destructive marriage, Leslie Vernick offers a personalized path forward. Based on decades of counseling experience, her intensely practical, biblical advice will show you how to establish boundaries and break free from emotional abuse. Learn to:
 
·         identify damaging behaviors
·         gain the skills to respond wisely
·         promote healthy change
·         stay safe
·         understand when, why, and even how to leave
·         recognize that God sees and hates what is happening to you
 
Trying harder to be a perfect fantasy wife won’t help fix what’s wrong your marriage. Discover instead how you can initiate effective changes to stop the cycle of destruction and restore hope for the future.
 
“Women in an emotionally abusive marriage do not need another book on how to have a good marriage; those books rub salt in raw wounds. No, they desperately need this book so that they can diagnose just how bad their marriage is and then, with Leslie’s clear expertise, develop a plan that will either begin to turn their marriage around... .or give them a wise route of escape.”

>> Currently devouring this. I think this is much more relevant for me than "Love Must Be Tough" which was mainly from the perspective of the problem being adultery and the goal being to keep the marriage intact. That was a useful learning experience (especially highlighting the respect issue), but the advice in this book seems much more pertinent so far. It's not procrastination if I read it really quickly, right? 

BetterLanes x

Vernick is a really good author.  I've read lots of her books, including the one you mentioned here.

She also has FB group... email chains and some online seminars.

If you haven't finished "love must be tough"... .I would encourage you not to get distracted and finish it first.

There is a potential to be distracted by lots of new and interesting... .seemingly supportive information coming your way.

While I agree "love must be tough" generally covers the subject matter through the "lens" of adultery and trying to win a spouse back(probably best to say "win a marriage back" (or let them go)... .my memory of the book (been a couple years) is that there is a more "base message" about marriage.  

What is your impression of what the book is telling/showing you to "demand" be present in a marriage and that most people go about "getting that" in a wrong way... .or counter productive way?

FF

Hi Formflier,

I did finish "Love Must Be Tough" before I posted about it - I wouldn't have been so critical before reading the whole thing. I'm a pretty quick reader so don't worry. It did talk about respect in the marriage being a key issue which was very helpful. It's just the perspective was wrong for me. This book is the right perspective and much more relevant to my situation.

I also replied to the lady from the diocese office, so we'll see what happens there.

BetterLanes x

Good... .I was pretty sure you got it... .yet with such important matters at hand, "pretty sure" isn't a good standard.

I'll keep my challenge out there to not focus on "perspective"... .it's about respect... period

Here is the thing, even though infidelity may or may not be an issue at the moment. 

If there is no respect in household chores and if there is no respect in a conversation and if there is no respect in (insert some other more "minor" thing)... .then it goes to follow there will be no respect with infidelity or "financial infidelity" or (insert some other "major" thing).

Remember in the "love must be tough book" Dobson (if I remember right) said he wife would "get on him" if he forgot to left her know he would be late for dinner.  Then he went on to explain how she was on solid "Christian" ground for doing so... .and also how grace could play in there.

If there are still concerns about "perspective"... .please keep after me... perhaps we are looking at different things.

FF

Thanks Formflier. Yes the respect is a two way thing - I find it hard to respect him due to his behaviors, and he finds it hard to respect me as a person.

What I mean by perspective I guess, is that LMBT is written with the underlying assumption that you still love the person and still want a relationship with them like it used to be before the infidelity. Also, the focus is on infidelity for which there is a pretty clear biblical justification for marriage breakup. The key principle of not letting the partner continue to walk all over you is applicable, but the rationale and goals and suggested methods are fairly specific to restoring a wanted relationship after infidelity.

This current book (TEDM) is written for a woman in a marriage where ongoing emotional abuse is the primary issue, and importantly for me it recognizes that this causes you to have very ambivalent feelings about the relationship at all. I highlighted "When someone repeatedly and seriously sins against us and is not willing to look at what he's done and is not willing to change, it is not possible to have a warm or close or healthy relationship." It also addresses biblical justifications for standing up in emotionally abusive marriages and confronting your spouse's behavior. Also it lays out a specific plan and techniques for women to have the difficult conversation with their husbands, and what to do in the event of a negative response, and what the husband needs to do in the aftermath of a positive response to demonstrate that he is changing. So it is very specifically directed at my situation and has advice and conversation plans I can use right off the page. It is much more actionable.

Hope that clarifies,
BetterLanes x

From his perspective... .why does he find it hard to respect you as a person.  (very likely you don't agree... .)

Again... it's been a bit since I read the book... .so I'm not going to argue "specifics" with you... .but I would want you to consider the perspective of the "principles" of the book

I get it that you and many can see it from the point of view of a spouse that "wants" the wayward person back.  Dobson does  a lot to show that many of the "tactics" that people use to get someone back are counter-intuitive.  Begging, appeasement... .lovey dovey usually don't get it done (especially with an entitled person).


One of the reasons I "pushed" you to read the book is your Christian approach to marriage.  My memory of the book is that Dobson "pushed" the principle that it is the "duty" of a spouse to "demand" respect.  I'm likely not using exact words... but go back to the example Dobson gives of his wife "demanding" respect when he was coming home late for dinner... .and not calling or being considerate of her.

Many Christian women erroneously believe that a call to "submission" equates with "being a doormat" or "being passive" about "demanding respect". 

I certainly don't want to accuse you of those things or suggest the marriage problems are all you.  What I do hope you "get" from the Dobson book is "What would my marriage look like now, if I had consistently demanded respect for the last xx years"

Perhaps you would already be gone from the marriage... .perhaps you would look towards the future with more hope, the actual outcome is really "unknowable".  That being said, if there is a "wish" that you had demanded more respect during the relationship... .why not start now.

You husband may clearly say "no... I won't give you respect"... .or he may say yes... .or he may wrestle with it for a while.  The only way to know is to "demand it" and see.

I see the two books as "complimentary" and would be hard pressed to see where they conflict. 

My understanding of Vernick is that if you start "doing" her stuff... .and there are signs of repentance (i get it... deciding "what is enough" can be tough) that she calls women to push harder for the marriage (from the Christian perspective).

Complete clarity:  Dobson and Vernick both seem to suggest that after "doing their method"... .if your spouse is running away... .you don't chase them down.  The nuance seems to be that Vervick focuses more on "how to kick a spouse out" whereas Dobson seems to focus more on "how to let a spouse go".

Big picture:  I love debating books... .especially when others seem to "grab" different lessons from them.

Good thread... keep it up.

FF

Thanks again for your insight FF! I'll reply more after the weekend. This part caught me. I do agree it would have been different if I hadn't been in the thought trap (which Vernick very much acknowledges, and Dobson too) of thinking the best strategy for the wife in a troubled Christian marriage is to doormat.

I have actually set up to have "the conversation" this Saturday night - I have hastily arranged a sleepover for my D as Vernick suggests. Provided that arrangement goes ahead and my courage holds then I should have something interesting to post after the weekend. Those of you who are praying people, please pray for me.

BetterLanes x

And on the guys side... .there is a thought that "we are supposed to lead like Jesus" and sacrifice.  Ephesians.

And... .we are supposed to do that... .and wive's are supposed to submit and show grace... .to a point.

Somehow the Christian community has fallen down on the "to a point" piece.

I think it has to do with whether or not there is a pattern over a long term.

Let's say a spouse has a concussion, doesn't sleep well for months... .and is a complete and utter a$$hole.

I think grace and sacrifice can cover that while things recover.  

That's very different that someone that has for years adopted a  "stance" of BPDish blame, projection... .etc etc... .a stance that lasts years

Switching gears

Are you going out to eat to have the talk?  I forget exactly how Vernick recommends things.

FF

Hi BetterLanes, it is challenging to sort through all the church theology related to the sacramental aspect of marriage on top of addressing the practical daily living in the middle of a relationship that is emotionally destructive. I know, I've been there. I've wrestled with what submission looks like biblically (not just what women are taught - but how did Jesus and the disciples do it). I've read TEDM, and many other books about how to work through difficult relationships.

As far as church, I'm anglican (we have a sacramental view of marriage and the Eucharist) - and I'm "fluent" in other theological views, like baptist. One the areas that I had to come to terms with was how to think theologically about the covenant and sacrament of marriage. I'll be honest, there aren't a lot of good resources out there for it. I have read the information from the USCCB about the causes for annulment, and there seems to be an acceptance that abuse is a valid ground for annulment. I also have a friend who went through RCIA a couple of years ago and who was divorced many years ago and has remarried. She is working through the process to get her former marriage annulled on the emotional immaturity ground (her ex was abusive).

One of the books that I read comes to mind, though. It is "Second Chance" by Ray Sutton. It's fairly old, but he comes at the issue of divorce from a sacramental viewpoint. It was very helpful for me to read through the book.

I'll be praying for you; it's a hard road to walk.

Thanks Formflier and Empath!

Empath, yes it is confusing isn't it. A problem is that a lot of the material, especially Catholic, is targeted at the already divorced and remarried like your friend. The main concern regarding the currently married seems to be avoiding pre emptive adultery by someone who thinks the marriage is invalid. It's all kind of after the fact. Pope Francis in Amoris Laetitia does acknowledge this and says the church has been all about the avoiding sin angle and not so much about the assisting troubled couples.

Formflier, she does say to eat out, but that's fairly unusual for us and the UK, we probably eat out only once every couple of months. So I just arranged the sleepover. In fact that fell through so my D is at home now in bed. But I was pumped after reading the book and decided to go ahead with the talk anyway. It was very strange. I have no clear idea what just happened or what happens next! I will post a new thread for it in a moment, it is quite hard typing on this device. You are right, it is about the long term and repeated behaviors, but I don't think I conveyed that adequately I guess. More in a minute.

BetterLanes x

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