BPDFamily.com

I’ve been married for more than 15 years. The last few years have been especially challenging. It’s been a strained marriage from about 6 months into it but it really turned a corner about 2 years ago. Leading up to my wife sperating and taking the kids with her for almost a year. We’ve been back together almost a year now. But there is no progress towards reconciliation.

I’ve been seeing a psychiatrist for 2 years plus now and the psychiatrist  knows my wife and she’s been to very few sessions. My psychiatrist says he believes my wife has BPD tendencies. Of course he can’t formally diagnose her with BPD but based on the blaming, non logical reasoning , and exempting herself from any responsibility for where our marriage went and is now ( she’s doing everything right I’m the one with issues and need help ). My psychiatrist recommended I come hear for extra support and to not feel alone, and maybe gain a better perspective on where I’m at.

It’s unnerving to me my wife will say I’m the one who needs help when I’m the one seeing a psychiatrist and on citalopram and trying my best each day even if she’s pure evil that day I keep trying. I’ve asked repeatedly for her to go to couples counseling and she declines. I try to talk, really talk , to her from my heart without anger or anything negative about where we are and that we need to move forward. She loops the conversation back to the past and all the years of our marriage and all the things I’ve done wrong during courtship and marriage and how it’s impacted her and broken / changed her.

She will go on for an hour like that while I sit and listen but we don’t get to talk about going forward and she minimizes or ignores anything she’s done that’s hurtful and the conversation dies and is non productive. She’s accused me of so much and deeply hurtful things. I’m having a hard time detecting when she’s exhibiting BPD behaviors and how to shield myself from allowing it to keep hurting me. Having a hard time accepting she may or even does have BPD and that it won’t go away or change so I now have to adapt to this being the new normal that I have a spouse That I don’t want to give up on and don’t want to end our marriage but she thinks and tells me I don’t care for her. It’s dizzying and I’m trying to process it all.

I do not trust her due to multiple actions she’s taken even after getting back together and all of this is not healthy for us or our kids. I’d love any help suggestions thoughts on how to still be there for her be her husband and a good dad but also not get railroaded emotionally like I have been to the pint of depression and physically feeling sick on my stomach for days based on what she says to me  and does.

I’m trying to change my mindset on this to focus on what I can control in all of this which is me. My choices my attitude etc... .I want to love life everyday and not feel like a lamp in the corner of the room of our lives. only approached when needed, then used and left alone just waiting again for the next time to be victimized by the one person on this planet I’m supposed to have as my best friend.

I’ll feel like dirt for days after the blaming and she seems back to normal within a few hours. Even asking “ hey do you want to go get lunch together just the 2 of us. Or ask why I don’t treat her like when we were dating and really care for her when a day or so before she’s done something that completely destroyed any trust I was starting to feel in her. I don’t know what to expect day by day or sometimes hour by hour and it feels to me like I’m in the middle of a forest with bear traps in every direction as far as I can see with no where I can step without getting hurt, the only safe spot is where I’m standing. .

But I somehow have to get out of the forest because that’s not a healthy way to live / exist and I can’t stand in one spot forever I’d die from no food water etc... I’m darned if I do and darned I’d i don’t. I get fussed at for taking no action. And get fussed at for the action I do take. Please help.

It makes me sad I’m not alone with this kind of scenario since that means many other people are going through this too. I’ve been on this journey for a long time I just didn’t know my wife has BPD or at least strong BPD tendencies and I’ve been taking the blame and just taking it period for so long I believed it is all my fault and that I’m an island as she puts it I have no friends on this planet that she’s the only one who really understands me. That she knows me better than my own mother ( which my mom died 4 years ago ) so it hurts when she rails me with that statement.

She comes across so put together with a million facts and windsom words of her efforts and what’s wrong with me etc... .I start to believe it and self Blame and internalize  and I’m so tired and drained I don’t put up a fight any longer so to outsiders what she says may be plausible to them from the outside and I’ve been through so much / heard so much I really don’t want to talk about our past or ill feel guilty if I want to go out and do an activity with my friends or my family so I go to work come home be with her and my awesome kids that I love then go to sleep and repeat the cycle the next day.

Sorry to ramble. A lot to say to give my background. Basically I would love to not feel alone, learn how to shield / detach myself from internalizing the barrage of guilt thrown at me , learn how to have as healthy a relationship as possible with a BPD and turn a corner in my own life to be the best me I can be, to not let this get me so down I’m a shell of a person so I can and do have something to offer as a husband and Dad

Looking forward to hearing from you all and hoping somehow to contribute in helping as well if I can

I can assure you that you are not alone. That is the exact question I came here with. I can definitely empathize with your story. My husband is very quick to point out and question my mental health. He will tell me I should go inpatient, etc, all in an attempt to deflect from himself. Unfortunately I am a sponge for responsibility and blame and just soak it right in. He knows exactly the right thing to say to push the buttons of my worst fears and biggest doubts. Most of the time I remain convinced that if I were a better wife... .he would be okay.

Hi Subie20,

*welcome*

Glad you have joined us here! I hope you will stick around, get to know us, and come to consider us an important part of your support system. There are a lot of people here who have been there and understand. We've been working our way through the maze of issues this raises ourselves, and would appreciate your support in time as well. I think you may even come to find that by supporting each other here we all have the chance to become stronger and don't have to feel like we are facing our situations alone.

Have you had a chance to check out any of the lessons to the right of the board here yet?  |--->

There are a lot of issues here, but one I want to ask about now is is she doing things that undermine your parenting? Did you get to see your kids much during that year she was away with them?

What kinds of things are you do to not slip into depression if you can?

with compassion, pearl.

Thank you all for responding. It’s good to know I’m not alone in this. To answer your questions @pearlsw: I did find the lessons and have begun reading and enjoying them. This morning was the first morning in weeks I woke up and didn’t feel sick on my stomach or so sad and anxious just from reaching out here the other day.

You asked what do I do to avoid depression. I meet at least once a month with my psychiatrist, he recommended me to engage the forums here as well , I have a few close family members and friends I talk to regularly but beyond that my responsibility as a dad of 4 ( with one autistic child ) my work and trying to grapple with everything keeps me busy and I don’t get too much time for anything else.

You asked if she limits my parenting. Yes she does. While separated it was like the feeling of loosing a loved one in death not being able to see my kids except once or twice a week then to have to say goodbye to them and try to act like all is as well as could be and just enjoy them while I could. Only to experience that pain again and again over and over each week. Only to have her curtail that time to at one point no contact. When she left she accused me of inappropriate behavior with the kids and creating an environment where she nor they were safe, citing this for her reason for leaving.

About 14 months prior to this i was in the shower getting ready to go to work and my wife came in our bathroom to talk wanting me to take a vacation for myself away to recenter / recharge. She’s a stay at home mom and I’m the sole source of income in a commission based pay. So for me to take on a whim one or 2 weeks off would significantly hurt the income stream. I would’ve loved time off but couldn’t do so without it being detrimental to my family especially on a whim just take off. She didn’t like my responses to her asking me to take time away and all of a sudden she yanks the shower door open and begins beating on my chest which she’d never done something like this before I knew she was frustrated so I let her continue until she began hitting me repeatedly with balled up fists at first on my arms then she began punching my face and that’s when I put my hands up to block her hits and began telling her to stop only to have my oldest daughter hear the commotion and walk in on this scene. We worked through that. IF I ask her about the time she hit me she says it never happened now, even though she at first admitted it to my psychiatrist and another person.

After this along with everything else daily life brings. I was feeling so tired all the time i saw my family Doctor and he said I had low testosterone and recommended I begin Low T treatment. I had been on the hormone treatment for low testosterone about a month and a half and one day my wife was in my face for 2 days straight over an issue and for the first and only time in our relationship( first and only time really in my life with any person ) I walked pushing against her arms towards the corner of our room Until she was in the corner and very lightly slapped her face asking her to stop.

I’ve never been that way before or since in my whole life. I felt and still feel deep regret for that and have apologized profusely and took immediate action to address it. I contacted my Family doctor who had prescribed the hormone and informed him of what happened and that I was stopping the treatment and sought out the psychiatrist I’m still seeing now to address the action as it scared me. My wife and I worked through it together and life went on. I’ve never nor would I ever do anything inappropriate to or with my children nor am I unsafe to be around. Stressed out a lot yes but not unsafe.

2 months after leaving with the kids to live at her parents ( only a few minutes away ) , she filed a domestic violence protection order against me the way she filed it made it appear she and the kids were all living with me still and she wanted me out of the house and no further contact claiming amongst other things I had weapons at the house ( I’ve never owned a weapon of any kind and she knows this ) that her & kids weren’t safe. That I was possibly hurting the family pet ( we have no pets ).

She checked all the boxes on the form that had some canned statements of possible things happening.  This order was served on me at my work and this was first time I literally dropped to my knees in my life. My workmates were and are so supportive. We had a court appearance one week later. I had to scramble to get an attorney for which I’m still paying off that bill. The court date arrived judge calls out each case to make sure each party is there. When he calls our case ( she came without an attorney) we all said we were there she requested right then to withdraw and cancel the case and drop it all. Judge asked her if anyone coerced her to request this she says no it’s her request of her own free will and that was it. All cancelled and dropped.

Because she filed the type of order she did even though court case dropped child services had to complete their case work and the whole time from court until child services sent written letter stating all claims against me had been unsubstantiated she would not hardly email or talk to me and I could not see my kids or even talk by phone with them nor visit them at school lunch etc. after child services all over I got to see the kids once a week and a few phone calls each week up until she came home with them.

Since they came home I sleep upstairs in the guest room and they all sleep in “her” room with no end to that arrangement in sight. At first I was very excluded from true involvement with the kids. She once had my son visit doctor and dr placed him on meds which she implemented and didn’t tell me this had happened until almost 3 weeks had passed. I had the courage to confront her on this and after that along with other things I’ve simply had no other alternative to discuss/ confront her on she has increased communication and transparency with me on the kids but nothing like I would think a normal healthy mom & dad relationship would be like when it comes to the kids.

With all the past and background I’m afraid if I confront her even if I’m right I could loose her and the kids again so I’m trying my best to navigate. Sorry to give all that background to answer but I feel it’s important to give the background.

Long story short it’s getting better on the parenting but not what it should be. I feel if she ever presented herself as just unsafe to be around or did inappropriate behavior with our kids. I nor my kids would be around her period. So it kills me that she asserts those notions all the time at me and has her family on her side but will leave me and the kids all at home while she goes out with a friend or drives to do errands. Or we all go on a family outing.

If I were truly unsafe or harmful to the kids why would she take these actions of leaving me with them or us going places together? only to turn around and state/ accuse her current actions ( actions like sleeping in separate rooms and not letting me Change my sons diapers etc... common everyday things that inhibit reconciliation)are based on her fear of unsafe environment and my supposed inappropriate behavior.

Its not reasonable behavior nor logical. She won’t go to counseling with me. I don’t know how to process her doing that. Is that BPD behavior?

Hi Subie20,

Thank you for sharing more about what has been going for you! My heart really goes out to you to imagine all that you've been carrying on your shoulders.

There is a lot here so I will try to focus on one piece of it for now, I am sure others will join us and offer their support and insights as well.

I am glad to hear you do have a therapist and some people in your life for support. We can provide a lot here too as we get to know you more and more.

I hear that your wife is not acknowledging this horrible shower scene. When our partners start to mess with reality, on top of all else, that is terribly invalidating. Many of us have experienced such things, if not the violence, the ever changing versions of reality.

I was in a situation once a couple years back with my SO where I had to physically defend myself and I have never heard the end of it. It was pretty quick and I stood up and moved away, but he would not stop trying to awaken me in my sleep for sex (and he wasn't being deprived of it and had had it that day) and would not take my body's "no" signals as an answer. He got a push to get him away from my body and choice words to knock that persistent sexual aggression off. (With a partner who was not so hypersexual waking me up for activities would be welcome, but he is never satisfied, and emotionally insensitive to my needs. He is less so now but was very demanding and emotionally abusive regarding sex when I look back now.)

Anyway, I mention this to say this stuff unfortunately happens. It sounds like you are wise and trying to stay in control - that is very important - to not take the bait or let things escalate into dangerous territory. But you don't have to absorb these blows either. She needs to learn the limits and not to do such things, and you deserve to be safe. You deserve to be safe! And it is important for your kids too that there is not domestic violence in the home. I am so saddened that your daughter witnessed this scene. Have you ever reached out for any help on the DV? I know that is not so easy to find for men, but have you tried, via your therapist perhaps?

I hear ya! We can get pushed pretty far and find ourselves in situations that seemed absolutely unimaginable. I think that could be a slogan for my relationship actually - things that once seemed absolutely unimaginable.

with compassion, pearl.

I'd like to join Pearl in welcoming you to the site.  You've come to the right place for support and I'm glad you reached out.  



You've certainly had a rough time.  I feel for you.  :)o you think that your posts above cover off all of the actions which have caused you to mistrust her?  It's totally understandable for you to feel this way and want to get to a healthier place for your family.  When she attacked you in the shower, had she ever shown any signs of violence previously or has she since - either towards yourself or anyone else?  

It saddens me to hear that she has made false allegations against you of this nature.  It could possibly undermine any genuine cause for you to report violent behaviour on her part.  I'd be inclined to take advice on that so that you are aware of where you stand, just in case you need to know in the future.  You are just as entitled to and have a right to the same support as any female when it comes to domestic violence.  Being informed doesn't mean you are committing to taking any action.  :)id you tell anyone what happened and/or have any visible injuries?

Just out of interest, here's an excerpt from an article by Hotline.org (http://www.thehotline.org/about-us/contact/):


You can read the full article HERE (http://www.thehotline.org/2014/07/22/men-can-be-victims-of-abuse-too/)

Love and light x    

 

Subie20,

Oy, brother, I've been there.  You are in an awful situation.  My first bit of advice is to become a regular visitor to this board.  I know you're busy.  I was sole breadwinner with three kids in an impossible situation that included domestic violence against me.  When I first reached out here, I asked a question and then left.  It was six months later, and after things had deteriorated substantially, when I finally came back here and started visiting regularly.  The help I've receive here has been, no exaggeration, life changing.

You said that your children are sleeping in the same room with your wife.  How does that work?  What are their ages and genders?  Who sleeps with who and what do they sleep on?  That's a lot of kids, of varying ages, in the room with your wife.

Can you tell us a little bit about each child, and your relationship with them?  Are there activities you're able to enjoy with them?  I know that between work and your wife's behaviors your opportunities may be limited; I'm just trying to get a sense of the landscape.  Supporting your relationship with your children is very much on my mind here.

WW

Hi Subie20, I'm so sad to read about your situation. Like Wentworth I have experience with violence, both towards me and towards the kids. Seconding him that here is where change begins. 

The last time my wife was violent, I reported it to the police and let her know I did it, with the pretense that as long as this and other destructive behaviors stopped, it need go no further. We are up to 2.5 months with no violence, theft, property destruction, and subsequent police visits from my side.

Are you keeping a detailed record of her behaviors in case you end up in the legal system again? It will be of immense help to have a clear narrative of the situation if you ever end up in court.

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld 

Thank you all for your replies !

@Wentworth , I will circle back with more information  and details - I have limited time where I can post / update

@RolandOfEld , I keep a accurate and detailed information as I can, and agree with you that it is good to keep the records in case anything happens.

I do have a question though for you all.  You have all been so supportive of me with the incident of my wife hitting me in the shower that occurred in September of 2015. But I am curious why no one has bashed me for my incident where I became physical with my wife in late November 2015. Is it because I took actions immediately to address it and am the one going to see a psychiatrist?  She holds this incident over me quite a bit and we can't get past it, but I am supposed to have gotten past her being physical at me. She denies she ever hit me or at best sometimes will say " it didn't happen that way " or "I was reaching out to you in love". She left me in November 2016 with the accusations about my actions with my children and my being physical in November of 2015,and references to this day I am unsafe to be around based on what happened in November 2015.  I was afraid to post all the details here as it really exposes my personal life, very deep parts or my personal life in a forum setting.  My psychologist encouraged me to really try hard at taking part with the forum here, so it was a big step to let all of those details out.  I am ashamed of what I have done and my contributions along the way my shortcomings and things I did not do that I should have that have lead to where I am at to this day. The consequences that have come along with all of this I experience daily.  I expected to be slammed here about this. I do not want to be slammed as I have taken all actions I can think of to address my actions. But I am curious why no one has talked about my actions, but focused on my wife's physical incident. She I am sure keeps a log of events etc... that she feels may be of note to her. She has recorded conversations as well.  I keep notes I have recorded a few conversations but I hate doing all of that. But I have been hurt so much that I have to take steps in some way to protect myself. To me our relationship should not be like the TV show survivor with all the drama and psychological twisting. We have both agreed that if either of us feels things are headed towards an event like the past we will call the police as we have both stated we will not tolerate any actions of that sort going forward. I simply want peace and reconciliation. I cannot get her to go with me to counseling. I have tried to talk about things as best as I could to get the elephant of the past out of the room of our relationship. But when we talk its basically me starting the conversation then 90 minutes of her talking and rehashing our entire relationship and all things I have done wrong and made her into a different person etc... and maybe me talking for 5 minutes total during this time eventually with me saying we need to stop the conversation and try again at some other time.  I don't want the kids hearing us talk and I will not even talk if she gets aggressive or loud I will remind her that the kids can hear and if she continues aggressive or loud  I will let her know I am stepping away for now and will be back here in 30 minutes or whatever a reasonable time is at that time if she would like to continue the conversation we can at that time.   

I constantly tell my psychiatrist I do not know what to do , how to I keep moving forward?  How do I stay positive and be there for her and my children when I feel like dirt.  Im having trouble now getting up in the morning as all of this is really wearing me out, I think the constant stress and strain of all of this over so long a time with no positive end in sight is sending me into depression. Thats the only thing I can think of that is making me this tired and worn out. I never realized how much emotional matters can effect you physically to such a degree. 

Thank you all for listening and being here.  Please let me know on the above . Im trying all I know how to do and just want to try to get my mindset in a positive place where I am happy with what I am doing and that I am still standing and that all of us my wife and kids are all under one roof together i want to push forward somehow and not be tired / depressed. How can I work on that part ?  please let me know any ideas.

Thanks again so so much

Subie, you take responsibility for your actions and acknowledge it was a mistake.  As you've said above, you took action because you wish to ensure nothing like that happens again.  You also seem to carry an appropriate amount of guilt (and undue shame).

Aside from that however, with respect to your wife, we are here to support you.  You are here seeking help to improve things in your r/s and you will not be judged here.  We all make mistakes.  It took real courage to post about what happened and we can all respect that.  Criticising you would achieve little towards improving your situation.  You can share here in safety.  We're here to offer help, information, advice and the support of a community - many of whom are able to relate to your relationship difficulties and share their knowledge and experience.  I'm so glad you were directed here.


It's great that you're seeing a P.  Are they in agreement that you are suffering from depression and if so what is the recommendation from them?  What does self care look like for you Subie?  What are your hobbies, interests, social connections outside of the home?

Love and light x

Hi Subie20 

    I commend you for all that you have been through and are still going through, and your perseverance. It's difficult to try to make sense out of the senselessness of BPD. You have good support here 24/7 and with your therapist, do not ever feel alone.
    Recently, my therapist asked me if I'd ever seen the diagram about the 'stories' people tell themselves. It has to do with the stories that are told in peoples minds that are sometimes untrue, but they nonetheless believe them.  The reaction (feelings) are catalyst to the behavior.  For me, I came from a violent home, so whenever there is a loud or angry reaction, I coil. The difference is that with the pwBPD, they have a scenario that they run in their head, that is nothing more than made up and untrue. My therapist said that the only way to tell if our scenarios are real or made up, is to ask ourselves as we are discerning actions, is it true? She said that at the appropriate time, I should bring it up to my husband. I did this a few weeks ago, and it seems to have helped him. He was like a broken record, telling the same story, sometimes with more fabrications over and over again. A few days ago, he said he was working through some things and that he was close to the edge again. I have learned that this is the time that the best action is no action. and to leave him alone.
    As difficult as it may be, when the stress comes and your wife is dysregulated, give her space and wait to engage later. It may have been impossible to do in the shower, but perhaps letting  her know at that time your boundaries were up may have disarmed her. Make sure your children are safe, take them for ice cream or do something you like to do. This has worked for me.
     I hope this helps you.
     

Subie20, you asked a great question about why we are supporting you against her action and not taking you to task for your use of physical force.  You want to make sure our validation is legitimate.  Simply the fact that you've asked the question speaks to your integrity.  Harley Quinn's highlighting of the fact that you've taken responsibility and addressed the issue immediately while she hasn't is exactly why we are backing you.  While what you did was clearly a foul, and I'm sure she's holding it over your head, the fact that you addressed it early and came clean to third parties speaks in your favor.

Let me know the answers to my questions when you get a chance.  I am concerned about your situation.  The fact that she has left with the children before, that they are sleeping with her, that she has been physically violent with you, and that she is highly intelligent and persuasive make your situation particularly difficult.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but your psychiatrist is right, you really do need a lot of support.  If she were to leave with the kids again, you would need to take a much more assertive approach, and in fact even in your current circumstance you're going to need to learn how to judiciously learn and exercise some assertiveness.

I was first exposed to this idea of assertiveness in a book by Bill Eddy, titled Spitting.  He wrote it about divorcing someone with BPD.  I'm not advocating that you do that, but since you've already had some exposure to the court system, I think you would find reading Splitting to be helpful, as you'll see that her actions are not uncommon, and there are ways to deal with them (I imagine part of your experience is not feeling able to stick up for healthy behaviors for fear of what she might do in the future).  Eddy's philosophy is to not be passive, and also not be aggressive.  Assertive is the Goldilocks "just right" approach.  He's got quite a few books.  You might give It's All Your Fault a try.  I haven't read it, but here's a quote from a review:


Since you essentially have potential child alienation going on in your home, it may also be worthwhile to read, Don't Alienate the Kids, also by Eddy.  I know I'm throwing a bunch of book ideas at you and you're completely strung out trying to manage a family and a job but honestly the books I've read have played a critical role in my education, resilience, and ability to guide my family through a situation of similar complexity to yours.

Dealing with a high-functioning, persuasive spouse with BPD can be tremendously isolating.  You are not alone.

OK, I won't throw more questions at you.  Get to the other ones when you can.  You didn't end up in this situation overnight, so it's going to take a while to make things better, but you can do it.  I understand the iron will that it's taking just to survive under your current circumstances.  You can get to a better place.  We will stick with you on your journey.

WW

Subie20, yes and yes. That is where the line is drawn between you and your wife. You lost control for moment – which I think was understandable considering you were more or less under attack – and you took responsibility for it.

I also commend you for your candidness on this here. That is the only way you are going to get real help.

I’m going to get a little personal on this one. I’ve been struggling with how the stress at home makes me around my kids, particularly S5. I get physical sometimes. I never hit, but I grab his arm or hand and hold it too tight. He doesn’t cry out or say it hurts, but this is NOT OK. I also sometimes slam doors and hit walls. Like you I have sought out a therapist, psychiatrist, and the help of this board for support on this problem. I can’t say its fixed yet, but I have some coping mechanisms in place.

These include removing myself from the stressful situation (where possible), putting an ice pack to my head, deep breathing, and trying to stay mindful.

Like WW I’m far more concerned with how your wife is leveraging your mistake against you than whether you present any danger to your wife or kids.
~ROE

Subie20, I would never entertain the thought of "bashing" you for a momentary lapse of reason where you were immediately remorseful and have sought much help. I've been there. Exactly where you were. One night, before I was aware of BPD but knew of many other mental health issues my husband has, I lost my temper and punched him in the bicep repeatedly. Losing control of myself was so frightening that I try to go the extra mile (sometimes literally) to avoid being around him when I feel myself getting to that level. I have wanted to hit him many more times since then. That was almost two years ago. He frequently brings it up and a threat of manipulation and tells me he will call the police and file a CDV charge, because I've hit him that once and have been honest with him at times that I wanted to but refrained. He has also used this to threaten taking the children away from me, etc. I know this is broken thinking but in the middle of his verbal onslaughts I have often wished him to hit ME rather than the things he was saying. At least then I would have the legal freedom to fight back and defend myself. So much of being a spouse of a pwBPD is NOT saying anything, NOT responding, NOT replying to the most hurtful words anyone could ever speak. It is quite a helpless feeling. I would never judge you or demonize you for that one moment. The struggle is real. Maybe no one else has because we've all been in a similar fight or flight situation and if we haven't physically fought, we've at lease honestly wanted to at times.

Thank you all for the support - this is I can say the hardest thing I have ever faced in my life and the longest lasting thing as well with the deepest and reaching impact to me and my family. 

I have a question. What is a pwBPD  ?  I have seen a few folks use that acronym and I know what the BPD is but not the pw part.

@ Wentworth you had said:

You said that your children are sleeping in the same room with your wife.  How does that work?  What are their ages and genders?  Who sleeps with who and what do they sleep on?  That's a lot of kids, of varying ages, in the room with your wife.

"Can you tell us a little bit about each child, and your relationship with them?  Are there activities you're able to enjoy with them?  I know that between work and your wife's behaviors your opportunities may be limited; I'm just trying to get a sense of the landscape.  Supporting your relationship with your children is very much on my mind here."

I will try to lay out as much detail as I can here - let me know any other questions after you have read it over.

How does that work?  What are their ages and genders?  Who sleeps with who and what do they sleep on?"Can you tell us a little bit about each child, and your relationship with them?  Are there activities you're able to enjoy with them?

I have 11 year old girl with dyslexia, 7 year old boy with high functioning autism and SPD, 4 year old girl with SPD, and 2 year old boy he too young to see if he has any SPD tendencies yet.  They are the love of my life.  I have not been there for them in the way I need to for so long.  All of this has made me focus on them but I fell limited in what I can do due to the circumstances of all that has happened.  Plus even before all of this i was afraid of becoming a parent as I don't fell qualified, but I am trying all the time to do better & better. Before she left me I was so focused on making ends meet and hoping one day our relationship could settle and normalize that i was a lost soul for sure. Looking back I see what I should have done but hindsight is always 20/20. All my children have ADD or ADHD which she states i don't understand my special needs children and will use that in discussion with me as well that I need to have a good relationship with my kids or they won't have a relationship with me once they are old enough to realize all and make that decision. I hope my kids will realize all the truth of everything as time progresses and they get older and that I love them and the one thing I want is a great relationship with them all and to really understand them and that I truly Love them.

when its bedtime all the kids go into what she is now calling " her room " which is really our bedroom but I sleep upstairs and have since my 2 year old was born. She told me after he was born she wanted me to get good sleep and not be up at night with the new baby but I wanted all of that and did not understand her wanting me upstairs. But I went anyway not knowing I would never sleep downstairs in our room again.  Looking back lots of signals were there on why this was her request but I didn't see them. I think for a long long time she has wanted to end the relationship, but we both firmly believe in not divorcing.  So at bedtime she and the kids go into her room. They all pile on the bed and we say night night prayers. Then I excuse myself  ( this kills me to do so each night my heart dies - my little boy recently cries for me after I close the door and that really gets me ). So my wife and the oldest girl and my 2 year old boy sleep in the bed. Once they go to sleep my wife moves My 4 yr old girl to sleep in a fold up crib like you would use when you go on trips to fold out in a room and put a baby / toddler in to rest and sleep. and moves  my 7 yr old son to sleep in a toddler bed that is in the room as well.

My 11 yr old girl  is so sweet but hitting starting to exhibit teen behavior now so its been interesting but she is a sweetheart and loves art and cooking , being creative.

My 7 yr old boy is sweet as well, but I have noticed he can be aggressive and before she left with them he never said " i want to die" but he does now when he feels disappointed or something doesn't go his way.  He loves robots and inventing / tinkering , being creative

My 4 yr old girl is sweet and sassy  - she will say sometimes to me " your Daddy, and I'm awesome "  it always makes me smile.  She loves Pink and Purple and cooking and being creative , she loves sometimes to watch her shows as well

They all love playing outside - especially playing frisbee with me - and I love that too

My little man 2 yr old is a bundle of fun. He loves playing cars and trains with me and throwing ball  etc...

I get time with them but its between 6 pm ( when I get home from work )  to 8 pm ( bedtime ) and its never enough time - we get time on weekend as well. Sometimes I can take my 11 & 7 year old on special daddy daughter / son mornings on Sunday morning and be one on one with them - that is rare. I cannot take the little ones 4 yr old and 2 yr old anywhere on my own.  She will not let me  - i guess she thinks if I have to change a diaper or pull up I will be inappropriate or something which is ridiculous since she will leave them all at home with me for hours with her not there.

So I get time with them and make the best of it and I love and enjoy being with them all I can - in fact I'm wishing I was home right now with them.

Hope that helps give some of the landscape

Also - Id love to know how I can break this downward cycle of feeling so tired and worn out.  My psych says I have anxiety and stress is whats making me tired. He hasn't said depression yet - I mentioned depression based on the little test you can take on one of the boards here in the forum - my score was in the 70's which the chart on the test said indicated severe depression. Ill check with my psych. I just have to get my energy back so I can be the best me possible.

Any help or insights on the above are welcomed.

I will look into those books - I needed to have been assertive ( in a friendly way ) for so long now. I feel it would have curbed so much - but i am pretty accommodating and if its not life threattiningh I usually let things slide instead of speaking up.  I get along with most everyone, so it hurts that I cannot get along with the one person on this planet that is supposed to me by closest friend, my wife.

Thank you all  - and thank you for listening and helping

pwBPD= person with or maybe partner with BPD

From a mother's perspective, you sound like a great dad. You may not have a quantity of time to spend with your children but it sounds like you make what time you have quality.

I may have missed some things in this thread. Does your wife acknowledge she has BPD? If so, is she working to get better? Do the kids notice the behaviors? I found a couple of excellent children's books that explain BPD in a way kids can relate to. I am fortunate enough that I was able to show the books to my husband and get his perspective on whether or not they were accurate. He agreed.(Even though he doesn't formally admit to having BPD.)

I'm not sure, but from what I've seen on these boards, it may be even harder for a dad who is married to a pwBPD. The world tends to stand on the mother's side. I try very hard to explain right and wrong behaviors to my children without passing judgement on their dad. It isn't always easy. The last thing I would ever want would be for either of them to not like their father or remain angry at him, if that makes sense. I'm afraid when my husband is in that Borderline Beast mode, he would not extend the same courtesy.

@iluvaborderline. My wife does not think she has any deficiency or anything going on with her. I’m the one with issues according to her . Before she took me to court we went to 2 sessions with a talk therapist. I was at the first one and my cars timing belt and gears exploded so I could not make the 2 nd and last session. The therapist asked for insurance which of us to put the diagnosis code on for insurance/ billing. My wife  said since I already was seeing a psych put the diagnosis code on me under my name. She does not want anything to hint she may have an issue. My psychiatrist thinks she does have BPD or at least BPD tendencies but he can’t formally diagnose her since she doesn’t see him as his patient.   I’m not sure what she has but not sure how to make sure if she does have BPD when she won’t go to counseling. I’m not sure the kids notice anything odd with my wife’s behavior. Hope the above provides some clarity.

Thanks for all the details.  Your kids sound wonderful!  They are all at great ages!

One of the most important things you can do is to develop a support system outside of your wife.  And you need some sources in that support system that can give you feedback on your parenting.  Your wife is being possessive with the children and multiple fears of hers are driving her to push you away from them and undermine your confidence in your parenting.  You need to be a calm, confident, assertive, loving Dad.  You've got a long road of child rearing ahead, and you'll need support.  You've got your psychiatrist.  You've got us.  What about other sources?  Do you have close friends or family you can be open with?

The fact that kids in that age range are sleeping with your wife is concerning.  I know just enough about attachment disorders to be dangerous, but that seems like a red flag.  Have you run this by your psychiatrist?  Have you considered seeing a therapist or psychologist on a weekly basis who is experienced with personality disorders?

WW

@Wentworth. I do have a few very close family members and friends I can be open with andvthat have been through all of this with me. I see my psychiatrist once a month now. I’m not sure what seeing him more frequently would do. I just saw him last week and he says I may be at a plateau that will take a while of my continuing actions and consistency in doing the right things regardless of what she does to break the plateau and see movement. Even if I had a team of people tell her the kids need to start sleeping in their own rooms she would not care what they said. I have learned very well she has her free will and cannot be made or even reasoned with to take action if she doesn’t want to. Thing is I think the kids are getting very use to it and the kids aren’t inclined to ask about sleeping in their own room. I don’t know how to be properly assertive and balance that with being kind caring and good husband / Dad. When I’ve spoke up in the past she says I’m not being reasonable and in some instances that I’m being selfish.

I found the following in a psychology today online article and it sums up my feelings on my thoughts and their value.

“”the more you’ve come to depend on their ( The other person in the relationship)  validation, or (however unwittingly) given them the authority to determine the “worthiness” of your wants and needs, the more susceptible you’ll be to their reactions. That’s why in intimate relationships it takes so much courage to be open and honest, rather than simply hold your tongue till, ultimately, your frustration morphs into anger and—self-defeatingly—you lash out at
them. Or, over time, sink into a depression filled with feelings of hopelessness and despair because you never felt comfortable enough to voice your concerns to them.””

I told her the other day after I found the article above I will no longer let her thoughts or feelings on matters devalue my feelings or thoughts on matters or who I am as a person. That I have value and matter. She really didn’t say to much to that. 

That article sounds like a great resource!  It definitely describes my experience, and is why it's so important for you to be able to self-validate, as well as receive validation from close family and friends as well as members here.

I have not had much experience with psychiatrists, but they are medical doctors who tend to meet with their patients infrequently in many cases.  That can be good to provide a bit of support and adjust medications, but is not a great way to learn tools, to get someone to deeply understand your complicated situation, and to get support on parenting challenges and relationship issues and decisions.  It also seems like it would be helpful to have someone who has expert knowledge of personality disorders, so that they have a more realistic view of what you're up against.  That's why I was thinking a therapist or psychologist.  You might be able to search for one that practices DBT in your area, which would mean you'd be talking to someone who understands BPD and has a supportive attitude.  Does that make sense?

WW

@Wentworth. I’ve made an appointment at a different office where DBT is offered and hope to see if that office is a good fit for me to get more help. They may have a cancellation tomorrow but if not I have an appointment set for 16th.  We’ll see. I’ve been thinking about the book you mentioned called Splitting but I’d only want to read it if it gives coping tools and helpers. Not if it encourages divorce/ splitting up. Does it encourage splitting up? 

Also to all. How can I really tell if my wife has BPD or if not BPD what is going on with her?  I’ve been in denial of her having BPD  or any illness and just take it all in me for so long. But my health is getting worse now I have to pep talk myself out of bed each day and my stomach doesn’t settle down until around 1 in the afternoon. I think I’m a reasonable person and I don’t think everything is my fault but she lets me know my faults. The only thing I think she feels she made a mistake on was our relationship/ choosing to date and marry me.

Here is some landscape of her behavior of something that happened about a little over an hour ago. I’m pretty upset that it occurred. i mowing the yard with a riding lawnmower and a storm was approaching fast. I could see the dark clouds and wind picking up etc...   I made a pass around the side of the house and came back towards the front and I thought I saw our van leaving the neighborhood and thought maybe Shes taking the kids out for ice cream or something. I checked my phone and no text messages from her so I kept mowing thinking she’s got the kids.  It soon started to pour down rain. I came inside to find out from my 11 year old My wife had left and only took Our 2 yr old with her and the rest of the kids were on their own in the house. My 11 yr old daughter said she thought mama had told me. I Looked at ring camera footage and she left at 7:47 pm And came home at 8:05 pm. Not sure where went or why or what was so important to leave with a storm approaching in the way she left. when I questioned her later on why she left especially without letting me know she said she ran real quick to her parents house and had yelled out to me while I was mowing she was leaving but I must not have heard her. Which I did not hear her I would have stopped and came inside to watch the kids so she could run her errand. How can she say I’m unsafe and afraid of me and afraid I’ll do something inappropriate with the kids yet completely leave the house like that. If I ever had suspicions she was inappropriate with the kids or someone to be afraid of my children and I would not be around her period. These types of actions she takes make me frustrated as they do not align with her words at all yet she portrays me as an unsafe inappropriate person.

I’m not happy and I want us to be a happy family and not live this way which feels like disgruntled roommates that happen to have kids together. I hope the new office can give me more perspective on all this and more tools to help / cope.

Subie, I would not put too much focus on the diagnosis or confirming if its those three letters or not. There are other mental illnesses often mistaken for BPD and vice versa. The point is recognizing that she is mentally ill and how you confirm that reality for yourself. For me, I contrast her normal behavior and her dysregulated behavior and that's enough to confirm it for me. For someone to be smiling and chatting with me one moment and cutting my clothes to shreds an hour later is a pretty sure sign that something is objectively wrong here.

And just reading about your wife's behavior here, I can objectively tell you that something is wrong and its not in your head.

I fully understand about the denial. It is an incredibly scary thing to wake up and realize the person you are sharing your life with and raising your kids with is mentally ill. It's like suddenly realizing the person driving the car you are in is drunk and there's no way to get out. In spite of how much I've managed to improve my situation since learning my wife was sick, I often pine for the days before I knew and could live the fantasy that we had a normal relationship.

Think back on her past behaviors. Which ones best make a solid case for mental illness in your mind?

~ROE

@ROE. Thank you for your reply. It makes a lot of sense. My psychiatrist says not to focus on why she does what she does. I felt if I could understand the root cause I’d be able to fix it or at worse case be better equipped to handle / cope with it. But that’s not the case. My psychiatrist says I can spend the rest of my life trying to “ figure her out “ and never really know and in the meantime look what I would have missed out on while focusing on that, everything thing else in life.

I need to focus on what I can control and what I can control is  me. Right now I’m trying to shake this funk of me being extremely tired 24/7 and getting back to being up and at it.

@ROE it sounds like you’ve had a tough go of things. I’m glad your still standing and trying and trying to help others. It means and says a lot about you. Thank you.

@ Wentworth. I don’t know how you do each day but your help here is very impactful. Thank you!

To everyone:  I’ve not been on the forum very long but thank you all for your help. I’m not alone and it’s not all in my head. THose are reliefs I’ve gained in a short time.

Hope you all have a good nights rest and a great day tomorrow

One other thing I forgot to mention. My psychiatrist is encouraging me to detach myself from my wife as I think she should be, and focus on getting myself better so I can be there for my kids and my wife ( in best way I can ). He doesn’t mean detach like let her go or in a negative connotation but in order to preserve and start to rebuild myself I have to set healthy boundaries that I won’t let myself cross or be manipulated to cross etc... because of all that has happened I have to be very cautious while still being best husband I can be. That’s proving to be tough as I feel i may be inhibiting relationship growth by doing this  but at same time I’ve been hurt over & over by her so I don’t want to be nieve either

Yes! I nearly burnt out my brain trying to understand 1) why she did things / what she was thinking and 2) what was wrong with me and how to fix it. Now I know its the equivalent of trying to figure out why a two year old suddenly screams to take all their clothes off or why a tornado goes east instead of south.

Can we turn back to your life for a moment? What do you feel like you are "missing out" on right now, and what do you think its possible to get back even in the context on your marriage?

I gave up singing, one of my greatest passions, for over 10 years. Next week I start an accapella singing class. It was very scary to tell me wife I was doing this since she would need to watch the kids for more time but I'm making it happen. I think it will bring some joy back into my life.

~ROE

I think your psychiatrist has some good advice -- letting go of worrying about root cause of our pwBPD's behaviors, and letting go of trying to change them are both important ways to focus our efforts elsewhere, where we can make a difference, like on our own behavior.  That doesn't mean we take 100% responsibility for the relationship, just 100% of our 50%, as they say.

Splitting does not encourage divorce; Eddy has a pretty balanced perspective.  But it is specifically about divorce, so now may not be the time to read it.  He has another book, It's All Your Fault, that may be more appropriate.  I've read a couple of his books, and have been impressed at his dedication to low-confict resolution to disagreements, but I have not read that book yet.  Have you read The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/essential-family-guide-borderline-personality-disorder) yet?  That is probably your best go-to book for learning tools.

Regarding the lawnmower-errand incident, I can imagine myself and my wife in that exact same situation, and I'd be annoyed, but that sounds like a typical parenting misunderstanding, not something BPD specific (though as a mowing guy I'll back you up on the fact that you wouldn't have heard her talking to you over the mower!).  Arguing the point later was likely not worth the effort.  Remember you'll keep friction lower if you remember not to JADE
“justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0).

WW

@ Wentworth. Thanks for the suggestions on books. I saw a different Bill Eddy book and am reading it and like the book and his style. It’s entitled: Shifting High-Conflict People from Blaming to Problem-Solving in 30 Seconds and I’m trying to pull principles and how tos from it. I also came across Brené Brown on you tube and got her audiobook entitled: The Power of Vulnerability. It’s helping me with shame resistance and feeling the it’s ok to be me and a encoages a healthy view of myself that I can be enough and not deemed insufficient. Also, to your point on JADE I didn’t feel like I argued with her I just brought up my concern that I didn’t know she had left. I’m all about keeping friction lower but how can I express my feelings and thoughts to her so I don’t feel like a doormat? I think your saying I can as long as my Doing so doesn’t involve JADE is that correct?  That can be hard sometimes if she’s pushing on sore spots and triggers but I am trying hard to keep communicating and not shut down but also to not fuel any fires.

@ROE I hope singing class is going well. I feel like I’m missing out on connection to my relatives and friends. I feel like I don’t get time with them like I would like. I feel especially after being separated for 9 months that I want every moment with my kids I can have and that I need to be here and with my wife as well with no time for other things since my marriage is a mess. But also feel I’m loosing myself too. As far as what I think I can get back. I don’t think the full trust and intimacy will come back but I do think we can all be together and have fun as a family. Beyond these things I just don’t know right now honestly what can be attained/ achieved or what things I can do in a balanced way to maintain and have self care

Hope you all are doing well and off to a good week!

That's a good question about whether or not telling her you didn't hear her was JADEing.  How did she receive it?  Tone of voice and context matter a lot.  But your question reminded me of an excellent point made by Mustbeabetterway in another thread today that sometimes we are too afraid to say the truth about something or about how we feel for fear of upsetting our partners.  Balance in all things, I suppose!  Here is her post:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326659.msg12982302#msg12982302

And while we're talking about books, here's an excellent one about communicating with less conflict.  It's written by a BPD expert, but doesn't mention BPD at all, so a couple of members have even read it with their partners (this was not successful with my wife, however  )

The High Conflict Couple (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple)

How have things been going in the last few days?

WW

@Wentworth. She took it fairly ok. She just said she thought I heard her. Thanks for the book recommendations. I would not be able to get her to read any book like that with me but I enjoy learning as much as I can. It helps.

As far as how I’ve been doing. I’m still having super hard time getting up in the morning because of the stress all this causes and that it seem like it won’t resolve. I’m not able to really work like I should or engage the way I want to I’m just tired and the only thing that makes my day is being with my kids. That’s only time I feel happy or feel at all. I have appointment with a psychiatrist office this Monday that does offer DBT and I’m interested in what help I can get there but it’s the day to day that is the challenge and honestly right now I’m struggling very much to keep going. I don’t feel like I can talk to my wife at all as I just don’t trust her. She’s used my confidence in her with matters before against me. This past Friday I ran an errand and got talking with a good friend on the phone while I was out about how things were going. An hour shot by and my wife called me to check on me. I ended the conversation with my friend and switched over the phone line to talk to my wife told her I would wrap up the errand in a bit just needed some time to clear my head. She then asks what’s wrong. I do not like it when she asks that as she knows that I’m having a difficult time and that it’s our relationship and how things are going  and she can see what it’s doing to me and I’ve tried to talk before and all she’ll say is that I have to think positive. That that is what she does every day and then she proceeds to talk for a long time like that and I don’t really get to “ talk” it out with her at all. Then I get to a point where I can’t really stay on the phone any longer with her talking so saccharin and dismissive so I somehow excuse myself and end the call. 

My friend tells me things won’t get better until she & I really communicate and I agree. But how can I effectively and honestly really communicate when she doesn’t want to reconcile?  It will take both of us working at this and she doesn’t seem to want to at all. Meanwhile I’m literally physically sick and feel like I’m going to give out. I just don’t know how to get going where I’m not depending on her or her perception of me as my validation point for my life to have meaning and worth. Is any of this making sense ?  How do I truly love someone that isn’t reaching out for a relationship while balancing home & job life with 4 kids who all have their needs and whom I love and not collapse under all the stress.

My psychiatrist compares my marital relationship to a twin engine plane where one engine is out now. That illustration is fitting as it feels like I’m trying hard to keep the plane going but can only do so much.

My wife just went through 2 surgeries and I feel like a money faucet right now and can’t trust her enough to go over our financial info yet she keeps saying she and the kids have needs. I get that but we have to try to stay within budget cause right now we are waaaaayyyy off. Whenever I bring it up she points at me as the cause that if I eat out for lunch at work or breakfast that’s what is causing the debt spiraling. So I’m going to go back to packing lunch and eating breakfast from microwave each morning to lower that cost. But honestly that’s all I do that causes “ extra “ expense. I only like doing that since I can eat around people at places. Instead of an empty break room at work and I get to know the folks that work at and regulars at the eating places in my community and that connection feels great.  Sorry for so many posts tonight. Just kinda had it with feeling this way and sounding like a pitty party.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head with this one.  You know things are out of whack.  It's very insightful of you to identify this problem.  It's just not sustainable the way things are.

What are some things outside of your wife that do make you feel like your life has meaning and worth?


I feel the same way!  Been there, done that.  Being able to get out of the office and go to one of my favorite lunch places is a nice respite.  A small "feel good" thing I'd do for myself when the rest of the day was about keeping my head above water at work or keeping the wheels on the bus at home.  You can do the math and see how much of an impact lunches out have on the budget compared to other spending.  This might be a place to practice validating yourself and looking out for your own needs.  Make a plan that you feel is responsible and balanced (perhaps eating out three days a week? Or two or five -- you decide what feels right for your spirit and your budget).  You might try using the S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0) tool to introduce your plan to her.  You're not asking for permission, just respectfully letting her know what you're going to do.  Could that approach work? 

WW

Hi Subie, everything Wentworth said.

Yesterday I was examining my life now compared to when I discovered my wife's BPD close to a year ago. My wife has made very few strides in improving her illness, but I have made massive strides in improving the quality of my life (emphasis on the word my ), which in turn has enhanced my ability to cope with her BPD.  These efforts include taking a class, reconnecting with family, buying a much softer mattress to improve my sleep quality, writing again, etc.

Your wife and marriage don't have the full proprietorship on your life. A large swath of that is still yours alone and you are free to do what you want with it (within financial reason of course, as WW mentioned).

But easier said than done, right? How do you visualize your wife responding to you doing something like the above, or a personal lunch? And how would you respond, bearing in mind that regardless of what she says you  are 100% right to do it?

~ROE 

Hope everyone’s week was a good one !

Just had a good afternoon/ evening with my wife and the kids at a local science museum they all love that has outdoor playgrounds and butterfly house etc... I cherish stuff like this as I don’t know what tomorrow may bring.

@ Wentworth. Having time with my kids makes me feel great and worthwhile, but my wife is usually always there too. I don’t get much one on one time with the kids. I’ve been so focused on marriage and the kids i honestly haven’t done anything for myself like visiting my relatives or planning a day or weekend with my cousin who is the closest thing to a brother to me in this ole world. So I don’t know if doing things like this would make me feel more worthwhile and balanced, more like me. Or if I’d feel like I’ve neglected time I could have with my wife and kids given our marriage is in a dysfunctional crisis, I’d probably feel guilty. I’d like to start by just going to visit my uncle one Saturday afternoon and hang out with him for a bit. I know I have to pop out of this rut soon for my work or I’ll be having issues on that front too. I feel numb and tired all the time now. I know it’s like when a planes oxygen masks drop. Your supposed to take the mask for yourself and breath so you can then help others. In my role as husband and head of the house. It’s hard for me to realize if I don’t stop and breath I really can’t help my family. I just feel really guilty if I do anything for myself. Obviously what I’ve been doing isn’t working so I need to change but I’m lost on where to start / what to do. Plus I feel my wife catalogs any hiccup I have in my efforts and is waiting to use it at her convenience against me.

As an example. A few months ago we agreed that after I leave the house in the morning and am driving in to work she would call during that time to read a paragraph of an encouraging article we’d picked so that it would encourage us to talk everyday in the morning and get things off to a good start. This went like clockwork until about a month ago she would miss or something would come up then the kids got out of school so the morning schedule was not the same etc...  So instead of letting it die out I’d call and read even if it made me late for work. Then it became me doing this to keep it going. She’d thank me for doing so on occasion but in the back of my mind I’m thinking you agreed to be the one to reach out and do this each day , how is it now that I’m carrying this. Basically it to me is a measure of how seriously she takes what we agreed to and it’s contribution to us. So some days I would not call in the morning I’d wait till lunch to see if she even called ( cared ) and she didn’t. Yet if I talk to her about it she’d blame me saying I’m the head of the house and she’s waiting to see if I will take the lead and make sure it happens each day. She would flip it on me, even though we talked it all out ahead and agreed on it. I know when the kids are out of school her schedule is not the same but to go a whole day without calling me for something that takes maybe 2 minutes and keeps us talking, especially under the circumstances.

I need help in figuring out how to talk to her. If she calls during the day it’s not to just check on me & say hey. She does ask how I am but then it’s. A slight silence which now I know is the signal she’s now going to go into why she really called me. Then it’s 90% of the time something involving money needing to be spent or something needed. It’s never a call to simply really to check on me.   @ WW & ROE - I don’t know how to approach her and talk where something actually gets accomplished to help our relationship no matter what method of delivery I try or how I try to structure it in approaching her. The conversation starts ok then digresses into the past and I’ll end up listening to her talk for such a long time then when I do get to reply or speak again I’m made to feel small and broken and me being 100% at fault for where we are.  So Im loosing my gumption on trying to talk to her which she will peg as I’m not fulfilling my role and not really wanting this to work / not wanting the relationship. When really I’m simply just tired of spinning wheels getting nowhere and being made to feel worse in the process.

Hi Subie,

It's wonderful to hear that you had some family time that was enjoyable for all of you.  Those times really are special.

I just wanted to pick up on one part of your post above.  If you get a lot out of being with the kids, how about planning a day or even an afternoon of dad time with them?  What does your wife enjoy?  Could you wrap it up as an opportunity for her to also benefit by getting some time without the rest of you around?  If she is tired, she can rest.  Perhaps she would relish the chance to catch up with some friends, or to go pamper herself?  Especially during school holidays, child rearing is full on.  Just a suggestion on one way to have guilt free positive time for yourself, whilst still being there for all of your family.

Love and light x

@Harley Quinn. That is a great idea as it balances so many parts of the equation. The only thing is my wife would reject it if I approach her with something like that using her fear of me possibly being inappropriate, which I never have been nor would I ever be , with my children in her absence. As she In the past accused me of being “ unintentionally inappropriate”. Even though in the past few months she has for very short periods of time and a few long periods of time left me at home with the kids while she was out. I cannot figure out how all of this reconciles in her mind that it’s ok to leave and let me watch the kids one day but not another. As I agree with you Harley Quinn that it would give her a break and me some Dad time and be an all around win win for everyone but against all of the logic and sense it makes she rejects it.

I can totally relate to the feelings of guilt about doing something for yourself.  I absolutely did not follow the "oxygen mask" philosophy, and paid for it.  You will be a better father and husband if you can learn to do this.  Even if you don't get encouragement from your wife, it will help her in the long run (ironically, if you were to get better at taking care of yourself, this would be some of the leadership she is asking for, thought I don't suggest you point it out to her  )

You said you weren't sure where to start, but you suggested two places -- A visit to your uncle, and time with your cousin.  When is the next Saturday that makes sense to visit your uncle?

One thing that I think would help you here is working to release yourself of expectations of her behavior.  I find that some of my worst feelings come when someone doesn't do something that I feel passionately they should do.  I'm not saying you can't hope for things, but expecting is another story.

Reading to each other is a fantastic thing!  I totally see your disappointment that it got knocked off track, but the fact that she was willing to do it in the first place is, frankly, very impressive!  It's still summer.  And it does make sense that her schedule might be different.  Even if she simply wants a break from getting up early to make school lunches.  Have you thought about talking with her about it, validating the heck out of the fact that she did it in the first place, and asking her if she has any ideas about adapting it for the summer schedule?  Maybe she could read at bedtime -- but better to see if she has suggestions.  Make sure she feels heard.  If you are driving for a particular outcome, she is going to feel controlled.

Regarding the work calls.  It sounds like what you're hoping for are short, encouraging calls from her.  But instead, the calls go a little longish, and degenerate into negative territory.  :)oes that about sum it up?  Releasing expectations here may be helpful, too.  If she is talking to you about family logistics like things that money needs to be spent on, do you think it might help her to feel supported by you?  When I'm at work, the main thing on my mind is having a good work day.  If I need a pick-me-up, I eat lunch out   If my wife calls, my main focus is on meeting her needs, and I hope to keep the call to a reasonable length so I'm a good worker, without her feeling like I'm rushing her off the phone.  Could you try an experiment for a week or two, and anytime she calls, just take satisfaction in meeting her needs, within reasonable bounds, and call it a "win" if she stays positive or at least neutral, and you're able to keep the call length appropriate?

Looking at everything above, I think the take-home points are:

1.  :)oing more to take care of yourself and meet your needs
2.  Releasing some of your expectations of her behavior
3.  Meeting her needs sometimes without expecting something in return

Your needs must be met.  Her needs must be met.  By directing a little less energy towards expectations of her meeting your needs, and more towards meeting your own, you'll be happier, and there will be less pressure on her, which may actually make it more likely she'll feel able to meet your needs.

Perhaps go visit your uncle, and use all your good energy from that to win an Academy Award the next week for Best Supporting Husband on the phone from work? (within the limits of keeping your boss happy  )

WW

Wow it sounds like you are in a really tough situation. I am also in a situation where so much of my self worth is determined by how my wife decided to treat me that day. It sucks. The other day I was in the phone with a friend after my wife wanted to talk to me about mediation, and my friend, who has lymphoma by the way, said to me as I was distraught, "she really has your number, she knows how to get to you and bring all the attention back to her." Yesterday my wife was hungover and I spent all day catering to her. Then today we went to the beach with our kids. I packed everything up, made the kids breakfast. She went to work out. After the beach, I made dinner while she took a shower and got ready to go out dancing. After dinner I cleaned up the dishes, she left, then I took the kids on a bike ride to the ice cream shop.

I decided a while back to just live my best life possible and support her through whatever she was going through - I thought it was some type of midlife crisis. Now I am wondering if it is BPD. It seems unreal some times. What happened to the loving, fun sweet woman I married? People keep telling me I need to grieve and get on with my life, but the hard part is my kids. I love them so much and don't want to be away from them.

When she is cold to me like she was today I feel like nothing. I wonder what my kids think of how she treats me. There was a stretch back in the winter after I asked her to try to be more engaged that things actually seemed ok. It lasted for about a month. Then we went to counseling one day and she said she didn't want to work on it anymore. Sometimes I can feel her getting more connected to me, then she usually pushes away.

Today, as she left to go dancing without her wedding ring on, it was probably the first day I actually have thought about what it would be like if she moved out. I'd maybe like to find someone who appreciates me. But I know my kids need me. And I don't want them to have to spend their lives going back and forth between the two of us. Even as I write this it makes me cry thinking about saying goodbye to them every week. I am new to this board and this is all pretty new to me too.

@k54 I wanted to thank you for posting here. All of this is new to me too, being this open with folks I really do not know about very personal things.  I want to respond to you in more depth but need some time to process it as again this is all new to me and I'm not the best with things like this for sure.  I will say for now like one commentator said to you in your thread to be the best Dad you can be for those fellas you have & love so dearly.   that will mean so much to you and them and be a great source of joy and stability in your and their lives. Focus on the things you can control and work on, its harder to do in every day real world for sure as I have expectations of my wife and family relationship. Wentworth told me that I may have to adjust from having expectaions  to keeping a hope.  That is helping a bit.  Sounds like you are taking lots of steps and actions which is great, those things you can control, things you can do for yourself and for the boys.  I will circle back to you, it may take some time as again I am new at all this and in circumstances that are mind numbing at times as well.  My psych recommended keeping a Gratitude Journal each day, and there are lots of smart phone apps to help you with this. Where you each night / end of day simply write 3 things , specific things you are grateful for that happened that day. You can't repeat the same entries on the next day you need to think of 3 new things from that new day, the apps let you include pictures of something from that day as well.  Then you can always go back and review them when you need a boost.  Each day we although going through tough times do have good things that happen, even if its waking up and breathing and being alive with the chance to try again that day, we have much we can be grateful for and it helps you.  Its helping me and I'm a mess LOL. Please take care of yourself so you can be the best Dad and love those boys and be there for them come what may.

To all : I hope you are having a good day today and hope to update you all later on about my meeting with my new psych yesterday - I think it was good and may help me to break through the plateau I've been on.

Take care 

Subie20, it's been a few days.  How are you doing?

WW

I have developed a lower back issue since my wife and I have been in crisis mode. I started on anti-depressants this fall and that has been very helpful once the dosage got right. I find it has really helped me sleep better because my mind isn't racing as much when I lie down. The emotional pain passes more quickly. She syill can hurt me, but I get over it a little quicky. Also before I hurt my back I was exercising pretty regularly. I have a couple of go to friends - one a social worker, another a fellow teacher who is very empathetic. Both of them quickly on identified that my wife was dealing with a mental illness.I didn't want to believe them, hoping that if I took responsibility and changed myself things would changed. It almost feels like my wife resents all the work I out into changing, she seems to almost project more stuff onto me now.

The main thing I do is take pleasure in my children. I am so fortunate to have them and they are so much fun. When she goes out at night - she is out right now, I feel sad at first but then I forget about her and love being with them. They are beautiful people. My counselor has encouraged me to "be a rock" for there sake, which I have managed to be. I almost look at myself as a single parent, with three kids instead of two: my wife is more like a rebellious teenager.

I read the "stop care taking... ." book and have begun to immerse myself in it. I know I cant live like this forever, it has helped me to realize that.  But for now, my kids need me to hold things down. I'm fortunate to have some great supports, but I have also had to be smart enough to decide to use them.

I have recognized that I need others and that has pretty cool for me, because in the past I have always tried to gut things out.

The lack of intimacy is hard though. Hang in there. I'm sure you have people that love you and can help.

@Wentworth : Well i thought I was doing a bit better.  But I have had a downturn.  My new psych is good and i know it will take a few sessions to get up and running. I began a gratitude journal the same day of my first visit with my new psych per her recommendation which I like doing. I am taking my vitamins again along with some magnesium to help relax my muscles from being tense 24/7 and fish oil to help ( didn't realize it helps brain functionality but I can tell its helping me) I had been off just vitamins and supplements for a while now and can tell the difference being back on them is making. She recommended a daily walk in the morning to encourage me to get out of bed and help my health and I know exercise would help me but I'm doing good to get up right now and am working on things the best I can. I am keeping my current psych as well but only get to see them once a month or so for medicine refills / adjustments and checking in on me. So I'm excited about the new psych since get to see them once a week. I can only afford 2 months of sessions with the new psych for now so I'm trying to make the most out of the time I have. I feel this is going to help me.

The day after my first session with the new psych I felt great. Lots of energy , felt like my self  ( haven't felt that in a long time ) , like I knew who I was, why I was here and that I'm going to make it out of this come what may.  That I am going to do the good and right thing regardless of my wife's thoughts of it , that she is not my validation point. That I'm going to be a great Dad and despite her I feel not caring about me I am going to be the best husband I can be. That I want to live the golden rule... do unto others as you'd have done to you... .treat my wife and kids the way I would want to be treated. That if I want results then I need to be the best I can be and do all that I can do and can control so that I could look back when I'm old and weathered knowing I did my best and was there for my wife and children weather she cared for me or not. That I'll take this one step at a time and seeing myself like Rocky in the first Rocky movie when he runs up all the stairs to the " getting stronger " famous theme music.  

Then the next day I felt a little lower key, then by the weekend I was a mess.  I woke up Saturday morning and before I got in the shower I was feeling so much anxiety in addition to my normal med for every day of citalopram I had to take one alprazolam. The alprazolam makes me sleepy and very slow, buts its all I have to combat when I feel like that, as the alternative is to allow the anxiety to push through which is worse. Same thing happened Sunday after I got up and going I had to take another alprazolam around 2:30 pm before we left the house for services. I've been trying to figure out what triggered 2 days of the anxiety hitting me like that as i haven't had it do that in a while.  I was anxious about day to day stuff like bills and money, small stuff like thinking am I the only person in the house that knows how to take the garbage in its bag tied up to the garbage bin , also seems like I'm the only one who does dishes , mops,  etc...

I know we have 4 kids and I know that takes a lot of attention every day so I'm not trying to be a jerk on the day to day chores and I'm coming to the realization after soo many years I'm just going to have to set a schedule and do all chores with the thought in my mind that this frees her completely to devote all attention to the kids, but it still irks me that she will for days just put stuff in the sink and let it pile when the dishwasher is literally right there.  - sorry to vent on chores but it gets me sometimes. Also I think feeling disappointed and upset that Im trying all of this , I can't really talk this out with my wife because I feel she will tear it down, that it exposes me to her and will be perceived as a waste of family resources/ weakness / that I really do not have a clue how to be a husband / Dad etc... .My wife once told me ( its been a while since she said this so ill have to paraphrase since i can't remember exactly )  that I cannot talk my way out of this, that until I take responsibility , true responsibility for my actions and all that I have done. That I won't be able to heal and will be living a lie.  

I still to this day do not know what more responsibility  she would like me to take. Plus I've been thinking is this what I am to do with the rest of my life. Wake up , get myself pumped up for the day only to be reminded by the time I get down stairs from " my room " that in all honesty I am not living as a married person with a loving supportive wife, but that even though we are in the same home we are separated, married in name only. That my wife will not go to couples therapy or talk with anyone that we have in the past about this at where we go for services, so she is basically declining any outside help that I feel we really need as we haven't been able to get things in a good place for 16+ of our 17 years of marriage. That with life being the challenge it is I'd love to know and feel at least the security of a loving marriage , that home life is a respite to be able to have and go home to each day.

I feel she may think the same way from her point of view. That she probably has her own thoughts on each day and what her life is etc... but she seems to just go on like all is what it is and can carry on like she's perfectly fine and always will be. I don't want to dredge the past up but I'd like some sort of communication and talking about us and where we are and where we are heading. If I mention us talking she will say she's waiting on me to take the lead in that. I get the husband is to be the head of the household ( meaning caring for his family watching out for them leading the family through each day with their best interest in mind & heart , foregoing hisself for family , someone the family can look to always for help and security against the windstorm of this world ).

I feel sometimes when I approach her on things  that involve accountability asking her about her participation her 100% of her half of the relationship that she throws it back at me that she's waiting on me to take action to be the leader the cheerleader as the head of the family. But I have to be honest most of the time i don't know exactly what to do or say, and that I do feel substandard as a husband and Dad. I fell like 40 + years have flown by in the blink of any eye of my life and Im none the wiser on being a good husband / Dad. Wishing I could be like my Dad or Grandfather or good friends of mine's Dad's and Grandpas who always seemed to know what to do and say. That I'm flying by the seat of my pants and building the plane while I'm flying it. Then when that feeling / realization hits me that i don't know what to say / do so therefore I'm substandard I retreat from conversation/ retreat emotionally/ just plain retreat.  

This is not good and I know it. Then my wife will use my retreat against me to say she always has to be the cheerleader , team player etc... she can't break down or have someone to go to. Its a rough cycle. Most people I know respect me and think highly of me and value my opinion except my wife and I'm beginning to think my children do not respect me or value my opinion , and I want to in a healthy way change that ( any help here on this is appreciated )

 My wife for a while I feel scapegoated on her Dad and how he was treating my mother in law for 40+ years of marriage ( although they never separated, they had at one time told us all at a family meeting they were going to not many years into my wife and I's marriage - which I could not believe they were going to separate and they never did but their marriage I found out was a rough one more rough than even my wife knows of ) Even though she would be on him and talk to me about him she would still take his advice over mine on household repairs , timing of purchases etc... looking back I wish I would have had the courage to speak up very early on and stress to my wife we need to be our own family and rely on each other , that her dad and mom's input was nice & valued , but not the gospel that we would live by.

Within the past 2 years or so my in-laws started to really get along, my father-in-law says he turned around and they seem to be doing good now. So I wonder if with that " scapegoat" gone did my wife flip over to me as a scapegoat / or someone to project on etc... because that aligns timing wise with when our relationship started to digress rapidly.  My mom never got involved in my marriage even when she had strong feelings she would not step in. My mom passed in July of 2014 and never got to see my 2 youngest children ( my wife recently tried to go down the road that she knows me better than my own mother  and has spent more time with me than my mother in an effort to try to get me to " realize I need help and something is more wrong with me than I know of... that I'm messed up and can't see it... that I don't have any real friends on this planet ( which when she said the part about on this planet I wanted to say in retort that all my friends must be aliens then, but i never said that no point in doing so  - the old adage that where there is no wood the fire goes out is one of my go toos now ) " even though I'm healthy per my last physical and have been under a psych's care since late 2015, and get along with most everybody I know  - i thought this was poor taste to say the least to reference my deceased mom and told her that while she may think that, that it's not the truth)  and  My Dad passed in July 1996.  

So i don't have a mom or dad to bounce anything past, and boy do I miss them.   My new psych and I have really only had the one meeting last week, but I mentioned in talking with her that my wife had asked one day how I was doing, so my new psych said well she doesn't sound like she is totally ignoring me or my needs etc... I told my new psych my current psych feels my wife has BPD tendencies ( tendencies as there is no formal diagnosis ). Clarified too that my wife sees me each day, refuses to go to counseling with me , doesn't exhibit any modicum of desire to really work towards healing. So for my wife to ask " whats wrong " to me is more either facetious  or she's trying to act like the past never happened and move on. I told my new psych that there is no intimacy hasnt been for 2 + years. That I don't trust my wife and I am afraid to even touch her ( like a pat on the shoulder to her or any touch )  for fear of rejection and the I do not want intimacy and I know she doesn't. My main focus right now is trying to establish solid meaning fully communication and trust, that those are the building blocks this needs to go forward with. But my psych asked me again about possibly massaging my wife feet , asking her permission to do so to show her i want to do something completely for my wife's benefit with no gain for myself in it.  I kinda get the angle the psych was taking on that but I don't want to go there right now. I know that sounds odd but i am very hurt over everything and how things continue to progress, and I don't think my wife wants anything to do with even holding my hand.

My wife said something odd the other day and I'm not sure how to take it. She said If i treat her like my wife she will be my wife, but if I treat her like my sister ( which I'm an only child ) then she will be my sister.  That to me seems again like her putting it all on me. Then again I wonder if were both waiting on each other , if that's the case we'll never get anywhere. But I feel I have and keep doing things that show i want to make this work , really work  and offering to go to counseling. ( any recommendations here are welcome I'm kinda out of ideas as I thought for sure she would agree to go to this new psych with me for couples therapy since she sought out this psych years ago for some testing for our oldest daughter so my wife had researched her etc... )

I am reserved but after all thats happened that should be understandable that Im just not going to wake up tomorrow and act like nothing has ever happened and be naive. Then too I wonder am I in the way of progress in the relationship because I am reserved.

I lost a whole day of work today and most of last week and am getting further behind because my personal life is consuming me and my thoughts and energy, ability to prioritize and get my self in gear.

I hope since this week is my monthly with my old psych and 2nd session with me new one that something can come about to help me get out of this rut.

Hope you all have a good rest of your day / evening and great week ahead  - i know I'm trying to  ;p)

I'm sorry you're feeling so low.  It's a lot to be coping with depression, raising four kids, and a BPDw.

You should have at least five different kinds of support.  Let's count your psych's as one, since you don't see one very often and the other is only for a limited time.  bpdfamily is one.  Do you have others?  It could be close friends you do fun things with, even if you're not talking about deep relationship details.  Group support would be very helpful.  Any chance that you have any alcoholics in your background and could go to Al-anon meetings?  Are you aware of NAMI support group meetings?  The idea is to get you in a room full of supportive, like-minded people on a regular basis so you don't feel so alone.

Take a look at this page, Is Your Relationship Breaking Down? (https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down).  What stage do you think your marriage is in?

WW

@Wentworth. I have a few family members and others that I can talk too. I need to let them know I’d like to talk not about my problems but just normal stuff cause I think I’m wearing them out on problems. No I don’t have any alcoholics in the family and I don’t know what NAMI is. id my marriage relationship is an amalgam of stage 3 & 4 in the reference material you mentioned.  My best route I think is restablishing  relationships with my family and friends since I’ve been off their grid since about year 2 of my marriage.

To all :  Here is where I’m at and need help with please:

I'm scared of some things
1) my new psychiatrist who doesn’t know all my detailed happenings and have had only 2 meetings with is  encouraging me to ask My wife on a date and I'm very hesitant as nothing is really resolved and I feel like a date just says I'm ok with shoving it all under a rug and going on. i get that eventually spending time with my wife like that is a goal and that if I never try something I’ll never get anywhere I’m just afraid of being hurt more and asking her out feels very exposing. I’d just like to see and feel little things daily that show our relationship is growing & respect and trust are being established and maintained and then have a date or other bigger things come into the picture vs. trying to take a big step too fast for me. I want to do this correctly and on a solid foundation.

 2) her parents want to take her & I out just us and them in mid September for an evening " with no agenda ". Last time it was just us there were agendas for sure. Plus I’m not welcome at my in laws house or in their property even when my kids are there I do not and am not welcome to go inside their house. I’m not sure why my in laws are suddenly starting to do these things , giving me a used riding lawnmower, then offering a night out “ with no agenda” they said. My gut is telling me there is more happening here than I’m aware of. I’d feel very uncomfortable in that circumstance and like it’s 3 vs. 1 and I’d have no way to leave on my own if for some reason things weren’t right.

Please let me know your thoughts on the above. I am not trying to put a stumbling block in the way of what could be positive steps in relationships but something is telling me neither of the above are right to do at this time.

Hi Subie, I'd like to focus on your family questions, both hers and yours.

For your family, how was the relationship with them before your marriage? Are there any family members you think you can particularly confide deep things in? Since I've brought my family and one friend in on the situation I've found they can support me in different ways. My aunt is great for listening and compassion when I'm having a hard time. My dad is not so good at above but has offered financial support if I need to go to court or for anything else. My best friend is a mental health professional and great at helping me discuss strategies. Each member of your family may be a different resources.

With regards to her family, I would say follow your gut and avoid if possible. It is weird for them to suddenly be nice to you like that and invite you out. What do you think is on their agenda?

Sending you strength,
ROE

To all:  I’ve been getting emails from a local bank since mid this month that my wife and I use to bank at over 15 years ago. I thought at first they were spam. Got another one today with some very specific information on it. So I called to make sure nobody’s running with my identity and found out what I believe is that my wife opened an account mid month there. She’s not working so not sure how she’d find the account. I don’t care if she banks wherever. Just hate finding out this way. Just makes me feel a tear in trust again

Regarding the date -- I believe we are either working on the relationship or are on our way out of it.  So avoiding chances to make a connection doesn't seem good.  But getting hurt isn't good either.  "ate" implies high expectations.  Can you take some inspiration from the psychiatrist's suggestion and try some lower-stakes activities with her, perhaps a fun daytime activity that doesn't have the romantic expectations of an evening out

Regarding her family -- It sounds like your instincts are telling you to be concerned.  Can you tell us more about her parents?  Are they the ones that won't let you in their house?  Can you explain how that came about?

WW