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Hello. I have been married to a person I believe has BPD/narcissism. What confuses me is that the rages in the past 8 years have gotten progressively worse. He is truly a Jekyll/Hyde, but the majority of our marriage, he was mostly sweet and caring. A shift seemed to happen eight years ago. This year, when I needed him most, he went into horrible rages. For example, I was pulling all-nighters in the hospital with a deathly ill mother. He went into a rage at me. During her rehab, he went into a rage at me. My only and beloved sibling was diagnosed with an inoperable tumor, and within 48 hours he was in a rage. When he is not raging, I'm the greatest thing ever (splitting, I guess). Last month, he went into a rage and left me on my birthday. Told me and the children within hours of each other. There was no discussion. Now I hear from one of my children that he wants to come back. I feel so heart-broken and confused (though given the circumstances, why should I be confused?). I'm hoping that this group helps me find my footing. Thank you

Hi maried,

How are you feeling about this? What do you want? Would you take him back?

Do you think it's likely he rages when you are having crises because he senses your attention is going elsewhere and he's trying to get it back? I notice my SO is more difficult when he feels like he is not getting attention, but he makes life so difficult at times that it is hard to want to spend time with him. It's a tough pattern to have.

with compassion, pearl.

Not sure if I'm replying correctly. Thank you for responding. I do believe he gets more fragile when I am focused on someone other than him. Sad, that instead of supporting me during emotionally difficult times, I get attacked. I have been with him for decades and of course am super attached. However, we have had a month separation and I'm seeing how hard my life has been. It's hard to give up my magical thinking that he can change and be sweet. Yet my stress levels have been so high the past year that I think if I could be wise and detached I would just make the separation permanent. I just can't comprehend that I can never make him understand how hurtful and wrong his behaviors have been.

Hi maried,

This can be so tough. Sounds like you are bringing logic to the table and he is bringing emotion. Those can be like oil and water!

When I see my SO make the same mistakes over and over it's pretty tough. He knows he is doing things to drive us apart, but he can't stop himself. I try to be accepting of this, but it does hurt that he continues to do this. I predict it will break us up in the long run. It's tragic for me to have this relationship not work out after all I've invested and sacrificed for it.

It is definitely important to prioritize your health! Long term levels of stress can be very damaging!

Are you still deciding or certain you want to make the separation permanent?

with compassion, pearl.

What I struggle with most is our history. I used to feel that he was there for me but that person left about 8 years ago. He always had rages, where I became the devil, but their frequency and duration started increasing and increasing. His inability to see grays is terrifying. My mother has BPD. When my caretaker father who always protected her and never made her own up to her horrors was dying a painful death, she made it all about her and not him. I look at that now and see that is my future if I stay with my husband. Yet, like you, I've invested so much, have so many nice memories. It's so confusing. I just wish there was something that could get him to empathize and see. It's hard to know when to cut it off. In some ways this would be the time for me, since he left me and told my sons we were over at my birthday.

Hi maried,

So you have heard in a roundabout way that he wants to come back, but he has not communicated this directly yet? Do you expect him to try or was he hoping to find out second hand through the kids?

Has he ever sought out any getting any medication or therapy? Does he ever show any regret/remorse for the rages?

I think a lot of us share this fear of growing old with someone who does not seem capable of putting our needs before theirs. I know I do!

What happened 8 years that changed things in your opinion?

take care, pearl.

He asked to come see me to say hello, but I said no, that I wanted a therapist with me when we talked. Eight years ago he was under a lot of pressure from work, our oldest son was really struggling, and a house remodel was a disaster. It's like something broke, and the rages started happening more frequently and lasting longer. This was the first time he "broke up" with me for my than 24 hours. It's been over a month. He meditates and smokes pot, but obviously they aren't doing the trick. Boy I would love to trust him again, but that seems a bit insane.

Hi Maried:

I am sorry to hear of the turmoil that you are going through.  If I may ask, how old are your children?  How has his behaviour affected them?  How are they coping with his leaving?

I ask these questions because he has not left just you behind, but the children too.  You and children are a package deal... .bounds of love dictate so.  His communicating his desire for reconciliation through children and not directly may be putting them into a position where they will end up being in the parenting role. 

Please do read the term, "Triangulation".  It will help you clarify as to how to manage the situation.  Secondly, when I first arrived on this board, what helped me the most was not just reading through the thread that best described my situation or my state of mind.  I achieved a great deal of clarity by reading posts from different boards.  It gave me a wider perspective. 

Please do stay with us as together we are quite a loving and formidable force for the better.  Please feel free to post all the different hypothetical/real scenarios.  While there may not be very clear cut future paths, together the process of healing all around can begin. 

I wish you peace and good health.

You are probably still in mourning, still grieving for your loss,  probably still suffering from the effects of being a child of an enmeshed relationship, and on top comes the recent turmoil.       

Thank you for your caring post. Fortunately my sons are in their early twenties, so no custody battles at least. I told the older one not to share any information about me to his father--so at least I'm not triangulating.  Interestingly, the older son, who has more difficult encounters with his father than the younger one, is pursuing a relationship with his father. The younger one does not seem interested. Neither is pressuring me or expressing any desire for me to allow my husband back.

So much of your posts have resonated with me.  I am so sorry for everything you are going through.  I am currently separated after a decades long marriage, so honestly, every single thing you wrote resonated.

You are not very far into your separation.  You are wise to hold firm as you get your bearings.  A separation can offer a time to think with clarity -- to think thoughts that there have not been space for while we're in the middle of the storm.  Tell us more about what you see now that you couldn't see when you were in the thick of it.

What does your support system look like?  Are you currently seeing a therapist?  Do you have close friends you can spend time with?

WW

I've only been separated a little more than a month. What is really resonating is how I would do anything to keep my husband calm (i.e., walking on eggshells). The moment I got fed up and showed the least displeasure, he would rage (and in this last instance left me on my birthday--which he had done virtually nothing for). I have a lot of good friends, but they don't replace the intimacy of a long-term relationship--and that's what hurts the most. This weekend I had a fever for 3 days and was all alone, and it felt so sad. Waking up to a quiet house with no life is also dreary and difficult.  However, I'm giving myself at least 2 more months to decide what to do. Hopefully I get clarity. Why does someone truly decide to stay with a BP spouse? What do they really offer?

BPD is not a one-size-fits-all thing.  It's helpful to think about BPD as a set of behaviors.  A certain individual can express more or less of the behaviors, to a greater or lesser degree.  Folks involved with a pwBPD are each individuals as well.  Two helpful traits for them to cope are being able to consistently provide support without drama, and having a strong sense of boundaries.  A patient person with strong boundaries paired with a person with milder BPD traits can do well, especially with effort with the coping tools.  A person with weak boundaries paired with a person with strong BPD traits is going to be vulnerable to having a much more difficult time.

Other reasons to stay are that pwBPD are full people with personality traits besides BPD.  Many of them have wonderful aspects -- they might be full of energy, creative, gifted in areas that we find attractive, etc.  Then there are the common reasons for staying in a relationship, like wanting to do it for the kids, not wanting to leave the shared history, having limited economic opportunities, etc.

A month is a very short separation.  Take your time.  Giving it at least two more months sounds like a good idea, but honestly, give yourself more time if you feel you need it.  Sadness and loneliness can be very common.  I completely understand what you mean about waking up in a silent house.  Sometimes I find it's difficult to get out of bed.  The sadness and loneliness won't all of a sudden go away, but if they are super heavy, it's hard to get a lot of perspective.  You want to get to a place where you can feel some optimism about living independently, where splitting or going back both feel like real choices, before you decide.  It's hard to put a schedule on this.

Often when we are in a relationship with a pwBPD we start to lose part of ourselves, or even most of ourselves.  Now that you are free to spend your energies as you wish, are there parts of yourself you'd like to reclaim?  Music only you liked, hobbies that you used to do?

Do you have the support of a therapist?

WW

I was actually going to my first meeting with a therapist today, and missed the appointment because of a minor car accident (apparently I'll be car-less till the end of the week). It doesn't rain, it pours. I think I have extreme caretaking tendencies. I'm not sure if that made his BPD become more extreme. Don't know if there is any going back, but like to hope life will at least get better than this month.

What a rough day!  I'm so sorry to hear about the accident!  I'm glad you're OK.  Have you been able to reschedule with the therapist?

You mentioned the possibility of getting together with him and a therapist to talk.  That may or may not be a good idea.  Therapists who do couples counseling usually assume that most often each person owns 50% of the dysfunction.  Unless they are very experienced with personality disorders and understand the lopsided dynamic that can occur with them, a false assumption of equivalence by a therapist can undermine and invalidate you in dangerous ways.

It's good that you're seeking out therapy.  Work to build multiple sources of learning and support.  It might help to read Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-caretaking-borderline-or-narcissist).  How about friends?  Do you have close friends you can spend some time with who can back you up as well as get you out and about?

WW

The therapist called me (she's a DBT person). She doesn't think my husband has BPD/narcissism (even though she admits he has all the symptoms) because she says symptoms are steady and don't get worse with age. As I stated my husband has definitely gotten worse with age. Is this true? If you have all the symptoms what does that mean?

I have heard that there is research showing that many folks with BPD get better with age.  My therapist feels like the reason for this is that BPD behaviors are not effective and the "school of hard knocks" eventually teaches them to adopt better behaviors.  I think this sounds pretty believable, but the problem with research is that it tells us about trends in large groups of people, not necessarily predicting what will happen to one individual.

It's also true that stress can make BPD symptoms worse.  I feel that my wife's behaviors steadily got worse over the last 9 years (we are both middle-aged) as we proceeded through a series of stressful life events.  Another thing that was going on in our relationship was that I was a caretaker who bent over backwards to tolerate her dysregulation and to smooth out her world (though she will certainly disagree).  I'm thinking that my caretaking, boundaryless tendencies may have prevented her from learning in the school of "hard knocks," and combined with stressful life events, things got worse.  It sounds like your family had stressful events eight years ago as well that may have kicked off the downward slide.

Really, though, it boils down to behaviors and their effects on you.  It doesn't matter whether a diagnosis is official or not. 

Can you help us understand the therapist situation?  Is the therapist you were going to see today the same one who is telling you your husband doesn't have BPD?  Has this therapist also seen your husband?  Has your husband done DBT or any other therapy?

WW

My husband doesn't think anything is wrong with him. I'm going to see the DBT person to teach me how to interact as I navigate through separation and possible divorce (luckily I actually have decent insurance). Our stories sound so similar. As things got worse 8 years ago, I started bending over more and more backward, repressing my needs and anger. It didn't help him.

That's very wise of you to be investing in learning coping tools for yourself to build your strength and get you through the times ahead, whether it leads to divorce or not.  The Bettering board here is a community of folks learning coping tools for living with their pwBPD, and many of them are in long term relationships.  What you can learn here, for example, validation, overlaps with what's taught in DBT.  One of the great strengths of the community here is that implementing these coping skills in real life is messy.  When we try something that doesn't work, our partners blow up, we feel beaten down, and we need some help and support making sense of what we did right and what we can do differently.  I'm hoping that others will join us here to provide you with support and their own perspectives.

You're currently separated, and have been for a month.  Can you tell us how you are communicating with your husband, and how much?  Are you happy with the communications?  If not, how would you like them to change? (More, less, different?).

WW

We communicate through infrequent emails. He always signs them love, but they have a very paternalistic tone... .he's all knowing and I need a lot of work. He does imply he misses me, but takes no responsibility or shows no remorse for raging at me when my mother was dying, my sister was diagnosed and on my birthday. Those seem to go poof, while my having a certain expression on my face is worthy of divorce.

I can share my experience.

I’ve been married 12 years and we have a large family. I put my and my chuldren’s health and happiness aside to ‘protect’ him and keep myself in denial.

I look at our history and he raged at every vacation, every important party for me... .if I was excited about something he always ruined it.

So why did I stay? Fear of being alone. I was still looking to fill the empty hole within me. If i could make him love me then maybe we’d really be happy and then I would be happy.

I’ve taken time aside from my marriage to reasses myself because I can’t fix him. I have co dependency trademarks, I’m also dissmissive avoidant in my attachment style which triggers my husband. I feel a lot of guilt, which is co dependent behavior.

So he wants back, and you’re not sure? You don’t HAVE to decide anything right now. Tell him you need time. Reflect inward, are you strong enough to keep doing this if he doesn’t change? Why are you drawn to this relationship? Why do you want to save it?

These are answers only you can come up with. There is no right or wrong.

My best friend is married to man with BPD and decided to stay. She FOUGHT to make changes and for the marriage to work. She is satisfied with the outcome. But even on his best days he’s still BPD. He’s not recovered, just coping.

So look to yourself have an honest and painful examination. So when you decide, you’re confident with it.

Hi Maried,

Welcome to the BPD Family!  I certainly empathize with your situation. I have been married to my uBPDh for decades as well.  We have been separated for about 6 months now. 

I would also recommend the book that Wentworth suggested.  Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist in Your Life, How to End the Drama and Get On With Your Life by Margalis Fjelstad.  That book was very helpful to me. 

In my situation a change was needed and as much as I wished to change my husband, to make him see, as you have said, how much his behavior and choices affected our relationship, I could not change him.   I have learned that I can  only change myself. 

There are ways to get yourself to a better place by practicing self care, getting more  enjoyment from life through mindfulness (being present as opposed to being distracted by turmoil), examine core values (what is most important, what defines you) and setting boundaries to protect those values. 

There is a wealth of information on this site.  Take it slow, it’s a journey and you don’t want to get overwhelmed.  Most of all take care of yourself.

Peace and blessings,  Mustbeabetterway

Thank you for your kind post. We have been separated for a month and a half now. Mornings and bedtime are so hard. The house feels so empty, and I actually miss him. It appears he no longer wants to come back, so I guess I do need to move on, but the loneliness is so hard to deal with. I have friends, but I don't want to be more than the pest I have already been. How long did it take you to deal with the utter loneliness?

Hi maried,

Having been with my husband since we were teenagers, I have many good memories and I have cried a lot.  Father’s Day, our daughter asked me to find a certain picture to send to her dad and I looked through old photo albums and the memories flooded back and I just cried.  But, the reality is, we had many good times, but he was verbally and sometimes physically abusive and had a very bad temper.  I had anxiety because I was constantly trying to make him happy or not make him mad.  It has been a way of life for me.

In the past say 8 years, the stresses of life that come with aging have definitely made his behavior more problematic.  I started to doubt if I would have any peace in my older yesrs.  He built up resentment toward me and I was becoming physically ill from coping.  At last, he threatened me and he became physical with me and locked me out of the house.  I managed to leave and stay with our daughter and family for a few months. 

Now I am living on my own (with my dog

second half of my post was cut off.  I will try to post it in a bit

Now I am living on my own (with my dog

Continued... .  It is lonely, but also peaceful.  I have friends, but you're right, it's not the same.  I think of my husband and think that was a love of a lifetime, but I cannot live with him.  My path has taken a different direction.  I'm building a peaceful, productive, fulfilling life on my own.  It's not for sissies

I am working on healing myself.  I have my own issues, obviously.  It takes courage to change.  I am treating myself kindly.  Wishing him well.

Only you can decide your path, what is best for you.  I hope sharing my story helps you not feel so alone.  Have a wonderful day.

Peace and blessings ,  Mustbeabetterway

Thank you for your encouraging words. Like you, I've been with my husband forever. I have never lived alone. I guess I have to reframe aloneness as not a bad thing. Glad you've found peace.

I feel like I'm on such a roller coaster of hope and despair. As I wrote earlier, my husband told my son that we will be getting back together. Of course this is secondhand information that my son might have misinterpreted. Then I get an email telling me how much he loves me but that he's happier than he's been in years since we are apart. Then today (a few days later) I get an email that he misses me and hopes that we will start talking again. I feel he wants to talk to tell me that he wants to be friends, that we as a couple are hopeless. How can I move forward with all this. We live in a small town, so I also keep getting reports about him from "friends."

Hi Maried,

I know exactly what the roller coaster feels like.  I think you have to decide what you want and work to that end.  It seems that you are looking for his desires and reacting.

Have you read “Codependent No More”?  I think you have a lot of options but have to decide what you want.

Mustbe

Thank you Mustbe. I've actually read your post multiple times--each time I catch myself trying to read my husband's mind and wondering what it all means.

Hi maried,

I am so sorry you are feeling down.  You have only been separated only a short time.  You say you are giving yourself at least two more months to reassess, so you don't have to solve everything at once.

If you click on the Boards button above, there is a link to Library:  Tools and Skills
Workshop. There are a lot of resources there that may help you with communication with your husband, coping skills, understanding concepts, etc. 

Be gentle and kind with yourself,

Mustbeabetterway

I'm so sorry you're having a tough time.  I've been separated 8 months after 30 years together, and have been extremely lonely at times.  It has gotten better over time.  It comes and goes.

What does your support system look like?  Do you see a therapist?  Do you have close friends you can spend time with?  With friends, I found that each one has a certain level of info that they can handle.  But even the ones who don't want to go too deep can still get you out of the house and doing something fun.  Do you have supportive family you are close to?

WW

I have supportive friends... .sort of. Two are wonderful. Others seem to either have little patience or almost seem to enjoy my sadness. I have no relatives in the area. I have a wonderful cousin and sister, who are doing their best but are quite ill, so I don't want to impose to much. Luckily I have a therapist I think I can trust, though he refuses to use any labels, such as borderline.

So you were with your person almost as long as I was. Did your partner get worse with age too?

Hi maried,

My SO was 52 when I met him and he got worse and worse, but I would put a lot of it on extreme life stressors, unresolved cultural/religious issues, lack of communication skills, and lack of any prior healthy relationship modeling or personal experience. Now that he takes anti-depressants he is much easier to deal with, knock on wood, but... .there are still behavioral issues. It can be very hard to get a handle on what issue or combination of issues our partner's are dealing with. On top of all this my SO is drinking more now.

So, all that to say, I think as WW says, that studies may or may not pick up on all the factors. Many of us have undiagnosed partners and just focus our understanding and changes on the behaviors, because are clearly affecting us greatly.

So, with medicine he's more balanced, for him, for now, but I can easily imagine with dementia, or cognitive decline of any kind, a bigger drinking problem, additional life stressors, my SO could worsen again.

Has your husband had an increase in life stressors as he ages?

take care, pearl.

I think he is struggling with getting older, losing strength, energy and stamina. Plus our last child left for school, leaving us with no "project" we did as a team. Also, a lot of physical abuse he suffered as a child is no longer being suppressed. He had a very violent father, and a mother who did not protect him.

Yes, things got worse with age.  Things really started a downhill slide about nine years ago, with a string of life stressors, none of her making, but all made worse by her behaviors.  Violence and controlling behaviors, which were only rarely present in the first half of our marriage, increased considerably in that time. 

I see I asked that question about friends twice -- sorry!  But you gave more detail the second time, which is helpful.  Yes, stay away from friends that feed off drama, unless you're feeling well enough to have a regular time with them and deflect questions about weighty topics.  I've heard it said that you should have five solid sources of support.  You've got us, two friends, your cousin, and the therapist.  Five!  But that's a minimum, not a maximum.

You didn't give a resounding vote of confidence for your therapist.  It'd be nice to "know" you can trust him.  His reluctance to use labels may not be concerning, since he may be reluctant to diagnose someone he hasn't evaluated.  But the label isn't particularly important.  Behaviors are what is important.  And in particular, for the purpose of your therapy, the impact of the behaviors on you is important.

Some therapists have a hard core "everyone owns half the responsibility for relationship issues" mindset.  That's fine for normal-range folks, but not when there's mental illness.  Do you feel like your therapist believes that your husband's behaviors were out of the normal range, and that you may have been coping with some unfair challenges?  Do you feel he believes your experience?

WW

I find your posts so helpful. I am actually going to ask my therapist if he finds my husband's behaviors abnormal--funny I never asked. I know he is of the 50/50 mindset, which I think is a bit worrisome.  The more time away (12 days away from 2 months), the more I think it would be impossible to live with him again, which makes me sad and lonely--but I've been on my own for such a short time.

Thank you!  Yes, the 50/50 mindset without any acknowledgement of the special challenges of BPD is not so helpful.  One strategy would be to find a DBT-trained therapist who presumably would have experience with personality disorders. 

The first few months after separation were so full of reflection for me. You say that you are thinking more that it would be impossible to live with him again.  What kinds of things are you discovering as you reflect about the past?  What kinds of things are you discovering about yourself, either reflecting on the past, things you've rediscovered about yourself, or thinking about the future that you want?

WW

I guess the biggest thing I'm surprised about is my emotional separation from him. I still care but I feel a distance. Also, I visited a friend of mine and stayed for 2 nights. I was surprised at my friend's relationship with her husband. They bickered about politics and they bickered about friends, but there was no underlying instability or fear when they argued. They argued but it was almost if the arguments weren't personal, so there was no fear of escalation. Basically, no one was walking on eggshells. To see that was a bit of a revelation.

That is an amazing revelation -- a relationship without fear. 

Where did you see fear playing a role in your relationship with your husband?

WW

The slightest conflict or even when he thought there was going to be conflict, it would send him into a tailspin--panic attacks and then typically rage. What confuses me is how all that seems gone now that he left me... .he apparently has no panic attacks now. I guess when you're by yourself there are no conflicts, but it still seems unsettling that leaving me would take him to a place of peace and happiness. Decades of attachment mean little.

It wasn't that you were bad and now that he's free of you he's all better, of course.  Seeing you triggered his relationship fears.  You hit the nail on the head -- by himself, he has no conflicts.  I can understand it's hard not to take it personally, though, after a decades-long relationship.

How have you been doing with the loneliness and emotional roller coaster?  Do you have work, volunteer activities, or hobbies to keep you busy?

WW

So I'm back. I left because I had a scary medical issue come up (I'm fine now). During this time my husband came back to support me. For two months he was incredibly loving. I remember thinking how good things were for the two of us. He was having panic attacks about work he said, but he did not want me to try and fix things (also what our counselor said). So Saturday night we went out to eat to celebrate my son's birthday. We had a great time. I woke up the next day and he had packed his bags. He left and emailed me that we were over. That he gave me a chance to work on our problems and I did not. I should mention, he was writing me passionate emails every day up to this point. I feel so sad. Any input is appreciated.