BPDFamily.com

I have come full circle and to the end in my journey here. This is the end for me as I think it took this long to figure out what is going on and that I don't belong in bettering, I don't belong in recovery/detach, I just belong back in the real world with an open heart (thanks to her) and doing so with some of the tools I've learned here imperfectly but non-the-less am open to. So this thread thus endeth the story of 1sttimer and the Possible pwBPD.  For a brief overview for anyone just joining the party (feel free to explore my links with my username if there is an abiding curiosity) and my epiphany/decision follows:

The Summary:

• Met a girl who really liked me and wanted to date and have serious/committed relationship
• Declined because I was both not super interested and in a very bad place to date at the time (family illnesses, finances, emotional state)
• Eventually we became closer and entered into a somewhat casual relationship with my citing inability to give more due to still trying to get on feet financially, emotionally, her pushing hard for a real relationship with a future (e.g buying a place together, meet the parents, etc)
• She started pushing hard for commitment both by playing jealousy games and insisting I ask. Finally realizing we had something I did, this became a huge week long gauntlet where I had to PROVE I was asking and do so over official dinner which culminated in our first night as a couple with her going full-bore Future Bomb (where we'd move, buying new bed for us, what days were our official date night, who I needed to meet, pet names, what our roles would be e.g. me provider/protector and she'd keep her job, etc)
• Very next day after our first as an offiicial couple planning a future together, she met me and said 'You're a great guy but I don't want a committed relationship with you' AND told me she had done nothing wrong we just 'see things differently'. When I said you ASKED me to ASK you she just said 'Why do you keep repeating that?" as if it was not THE relevant thing to repeat. I flipped feeling utterly manipulated (even considered she had done an 18 month game to throw my words back in my face) and yelled 'Thanks for opening my heart I'm going to go share it!'. Because basically she was saying just that after getting me to commit to just her: "I don't want to be with just you" which hurts like hell from someone you not only have been committed to in your heart for months but just exchanged 'vows' to that effect and held in your arms the night before starting your new life/relationship together.
• Came to this forum after being in agony and discovering BPD and Idealize/Discard since the girl never called/texted/emailed and I was certain she would to explain she'd just had a melt-down after realizing she got everything she wanted (side note: this 35 yo had not had a committed relationship in over a decade so a committed relationship was HUGE) and we'd hardly spent a day not texting in a year.
• Sent her a letter a month after all this without rancor/blame to let her know how much she'd meant to me and wish her the best in her life and thank her, again, for opening my heart (had been closed for years). Got a 'thank you for the nice note hope you've been well' which I found super strange from a girl that had practically planned her future around me for over a year (seemingly had)
• Did some work on this forum on my self and realized that I'd also not been fair to her and even if she did have BPD I'd contributed to the situation by withholding appreciation/acknowledgement/affection due to my fear of opening my heart and falling in love.
• With great fear in my heart texted her a very sweet/semi-romantic note to see how she was. To my surprise she texted back immediatly very happy and sweet and even implied the desire to talk. I cautiously replied not wanting to assume anything and she texted the next day asking me if I wanted to meet her at the bar we met and sort of 'wooed'. i said yes, she ignored me for two days and took a giant step back saying 'lots happening. can't make firm plans'. No way back in really from that other than waiting since there is no finite end.
  
  
• Sent her a very nice letter since I wanted to just push this one way or the other and not wait around while she made her decision, if that is what she was doing, w/o knowing my insights into my own behavior and my feelings for her:
  
  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326317.msg12978248#msg12978248
  
  explaining that and apologizing for not showing appreciation for what she did do for my life and said I had found the man I was, was ready to give her all she deserved now fully and invited her back into my life for us to start from the beginning and rediscover 'us'.
  
  • Got an immediate reply, not so different from the first: "Thank you for your nice flowers and note. I'm open to talk truthfully' (and asked if she could simply call whenever she found a free hour and see if I was available then i.e. no plans/date I should wait for her). I hated having the 6 page romantic letter I'd printed in script on card stock and had spiral bound and accompanied by flowers a note but agreed.
  
  The above all summarizes my journey from Recovering to Bettering. And here I am Sunday back on Bettering after my Epiphany.
  
  
  The Epiphany:
  
  I realize what I am circling around trying not to acknowledge here. I realized it in the thread you sent 'you can't control the people who rejected you'.
  
  As much as I try to fight with you over who HURT who it is really that I know who REJECTED who. And she did. Fully.
  
  Once she actually had me she rejected me. Because then the truth of her feelings couldn't be hidden anymore. She rejected me and did not EVER reach out to me again and did not plan to. Whether it was BPD, terror of committment, or fear I didn't really love her or someone else.
  
  Not to say "hey wow I freaked let's do this!" not to say "Hey wow I freaked let's take a step back" but simply never. ever. contacted me again. Which is what led me to this forum.
  
  My "I really love you" letter didnd't change anything so her issue wasn't if I loved HER. She was polite. And she never reached out. Because it didn't matter that I loved her she did not love me. That is how you reply to a love letter from someone you don't reciprocate; thank you for the nice thought.
  
  As apparently happy/excited her replies to my text were, once the excitement wore off she never followed-up.
  
  When she got my love letter/apology her reply was again polite, non-reciprocal and even her desire to meet was pretty clear that there is no reconciliation/reciprocation. And that the priority to speak is on the very bottom of her list and *I* want to hear her 'truth' I can do so on her terms... .whenever. A girl that loved a man and was without him for two months and got that letter would not have him sitting (now for 5 days) waiting for some undetermined hour she finds in her suddenly busy life or refer to his love letter as a note or call it 'thougtful' or need to find some last minute hour to meet him. She'd make it a priority.
  
  That is a woman who decided she does not want me. Who would have been fine never contacting me again and has not spent two months pining, figuring things out with her therapist, hoping I'd call. She moved on when she realized I was not 'the one' and likely had 'the one' lined up (which explains the utter inability to make plans).
  
  I've been fighting over whether I got hurt or she did and the fact is even if we both did I dont need to address that in person to 'court' her. The issue is she is gone and no letter or meeting in the world will change that.
  
  The rest of this is just sound and fury literally signifying nothing. I'm moving on with this knowledge as I don't want nothing in my life anymore.
  

Hey 1stT, 

Hold on a minute here buddy!

Okay, yes, she replied and it did not meet your expectations. But that is the issue here - your expectations. That is where the pain you are feeling is coming from. Let's be fair. We do not know how she feels.

You feel hurt though, right? You wanted a Hollywood scene and haven't gotten one yet? You know... .My SO disappeared once for about a month and a half. It was agonizing. I texted, emailed, called - not a word. We'd spent a summer together in his adopted country and it wasn't perfect, but we were still in love. I thought. But when I went back to my job in my home country he was gone without a word. It was agonizing and confusing. I was left to guess.

Just at the moment I was ready to give up, guess who was back? (And then flew across the world to see me).

She said she wanted to talk to you. Yes, she is being slow about it, okay. Fine. But who knows why for now.

Stick around, no need to rush off. We're here for you. Take it easy.

with compassion, pearl.

Hiya Pearl! I hope your weekend is going great!

It isn't the Hollywood Reply. I'm looking Gestalt here. Let's face it; if I never contacted her after SHE pulled the bait-and-switch (cut-and-run, dine-and-dash, whatever) she wouldn't be contacting me.

Skip said something that resonated re the rest of my life that I'm holding on to my wounds (from the past) and I think she is just another wound from the past and one that pulled all the others with it. I don't want the past. I want the future. I somehow don't see her being part of it and I don't see her really wanting to be. She's had ample opportunity to do some of the work I've done here and reach out at LEAST to say 'man I am sorry I got so scared. I really care for you never forget that'. Nada.

Anyway. You did say once you wonder what you'd do if your ex didn't contact you for two months but it seems you were close:

So yeah she want awol on me I went semi-awol on her. at least she got something from me for solace. We don't know if it was agonizing for her. It does not seem so from here. And so you can repair something where there is something even with utter NC for a couple months.

I'm still in it for one reason and one reason alone; the letter is out there and she is (supposedly at some point during the history of western civilization) going to reach out when she discovers an hour pop into her lap :| to spare me. So I can't very well pull the plug on her then EVEN if I wanted to cause that would be uber-crappy.  I'm awaiting my invite from my sis to their summer house next week to see my NIECE one of my all time favorite people who loves me back as much. A week on the beach with her, my sis/bro-in-law, some wine, good sunsets, away from all of this will give me some perspective.

If this woman DOES want us her window is closing. I think/hope you'll agree I've done as much as a man could be expected to do under the circumstances of HER implosion and exit stage right. And to be honest if the letter were not out there I'd be closing this door completely. Feeling like I've done good work, feeling good about myself, seeing there are many opportunities for me besides 'her'. Doesn't mean I don't want her but there is a limit to what I'll give up of myself. Just like you cautioned me about in my first draft of my letter remember?  The World, not The Universe.

Hi,

I agree w Pearl.  And you are in the right place.  Glad you found us.

What i did after a long time in the relationship, was ask for space.  What i saw after coming to this board, i dont understand BPD at all.  What i had been doing was making things worse.  it can be complicated.  You, and none if us, know the future.
When i would react to my pwBPD, it always made things worse.   There is a lot to learn here, at your own pace.  Thank you, j

Thanks JuJu! I forget after all the 'work' I've done on myself here I came here because of the signs of BPD she displayed. Might or might not but damage for sure; no committed relationships at 35 since 24, Short live. Some sham marriage. Father abandone family at 8 yo (get this he has my name so she won't call me by my first name) who reappeared while we were 'getting started', in expensive therapy because she has black out drinking episodes, lost her best friend in a car crash a few years back (I get the sense she was involved somehow), a string of emotionally and physicially abusive "boyfriends", a rich boss who slept with her and promised he'd marry here but told her to 'wait' for him for years while he slept with dozens of other women. A perfect storm for a cut-and-run when the guy who's treated you great but withheld 'love' and has the same name as your abandoning dad does a 180 and commits himself to you utterly on demand and there you are, with him, in an actual real committed relationship at 35 not having any idea how to have one. Throw in my ten years of self-enforced solitude and walls and emotional unavaiability which was suddenly total availablity and I guess the only thing that would have been surprising is if she HADN'T cut and run.

I'm still of the opinion that the run was final, we'll see... .

Hi 1st,
I hadn't followed your story until I read your summary just now.

The way it looks to me is that the timing has been off between you. I can offer some speculations, but I have no idea if I'm off base here, so please just take these ideas as possibilities:

* When you first got together, she was ready for a relationship. You weren't. She may have been very hurt by this, even though you had good reasons to not get as deeply involved as she had hoped.

* You say she was playing "jealousy games". Could it be possible that she had actually met someone else during this time?

* If she has a vindictive streak, she may have been "making you pay" for not committing to her earlier and thus, the turnabout where she rejected the idea of you being a couple.

* Then there's always Woody Allen's phrase "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member." Perhaps it was the lure of the chase that she was after and when she "caught" you, then she lost interest. Lots of pwBPD have such shame and low self-esteem that this is a possibility.

*You're jumping to conclusions that she never wants to talk with you nor get back together with you. That's a possibility, but at this point, she has not made that declaration. If she is seeing someone else, she might want to tidy things up in her life before reconnecting with you. It might take a while. Lots of times pwBPD really don't seem to be aware of how their behavior impacts other people. She might just be focusing upon her own needs and could contact you tomorrow, next month, two years from now. This is unknowable unless you reach out to her and ask.

It sounds like you're very uncomfortable with the situation as it stands, and I totally understand that. But how it will unfold in the future is up for grabs. It sounds like on one hand, you're tired of dealing with her and feel like she's mishandled your open heart. Yes, that can be very painful.

But my question for you is are you really certain you totally want to close the door on this relationship?

Cat

Hi Cat thank you for the interest and questions. I will try to reply as best I can:

I get that and tried to address it in my letter (not sure if you read that). To be fair I was also hurt by her utter disregard for where I was or came from and simply wanting what she wanted. For instance: when a man tells you he is not ready to date because he wants to have his business/finances in place so he can properly do so and take care of a woman/date and yet you tell him he needs to start courting you (when he is already telling you he can't date you) it is quite hurtful no? Am I to be ashamed now I cannot when one of the biggest reasons I can't and have NOT dated is I cannot.

Sure. Except when she brought up the 'dalliance' she had one night and the date she 'might' go on (and then freaked me out telling me she knew she'd cheat on him if she dated or married him but would never cheat on my which honestly is what spun me out of control for good) I withdrew and said ok I don't think I want to continue then. In other words... .enjoy but I don't want to do this for either my emotional or sexual health. She got very upset and ran up to meet me so we could walk in the park and told me she told me these things to get me jealous so I'd understand we should be in a relationship, that other then that one 'dalliance' she' not been intimate with anyone else and I should start staying over and holding her in my arms every night she wanted ME. So if she did meet someone she ignored my decision/right to move and and pretended it was me and me alone she wanted in her life and future.

When I did do the whole 'be my one and only' AND she came uptown to confirm again the next day and then did her whole 'not your gf until you OFFICIALLY ask me nonsense' I point blank asked her if she needed the week to 'not be my gf' because there was someone else, needed to get someone/something out of her system, etc since as far as I roll either you are committed/monogamous to someone in your heart of not and words don't change that and that they mean a lot to me. I said if you are not ready or not committed or there is someone else do NOT ask me to do this whole 'Official Ask' dinner. We actually had to have (yet another) meeting about this and she texted me once I explained that she was not the only one who needed reassurance "I am 100% committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me tomorrow night officially". And I did

So my point in all this AND my pain is that I attempted multiple times to disengage if there were other people or she did not in fact want the very relationship she pushed for and each time she pulled me in telling me I was the one.

So could she have met somoene else? Sure. And making me then climb over mountains to ask her waht she said she wanted for months and months only to make me feel like a fool the next day is what brought me here in the first place. I cannot begin to tell you what it felt like to have lowered my defenses over the months and weeks and the last week of the (inane) asks and confirmations and officiall asks and future bomb to simply be dumped the next day as if I'd gotten it all wrong and then never contacted again.

Which is horrid. Here is one thing; if I had sat down (as I tried to once, the day she revealed the 'I'd cheat on him' and said "Hey let's make this thing official between us" and she'd said 'no sorry I dont want that anymore" (even to be vindictive) it would have stung but I'd have gotten it.

But that whole intense month long campaing to pull me in when I walked away (giving me keys to her apartment, showing me two drawers she emptied in her bedroom for me to move in with, "Im falling in love with you" and "we have our lives to figure it out" and "you will ask me to be your boyfriend by the end of the month mark my words", the walks in the park to make sure I did not walk away, the meeting after I asked her to be 'my one and only' to confirm I said that and tell me how many people were going to want to meet me (since she hadn't had a realtionship in 10 years at 34), the utterly inane week of having to 'wait' to be official after having asked and answered (yes yes yes!) to do the official dinner and the night/day of future bombing would make that not vindictive but almost criminal.

It is exactly what I thought when I stormed out however, that she'd spent 18 months finding a way to reverse my original 'sorry I don't want a relationship with you' back at me.


Considered it. She could stil lreach out however no? Sorry I got freaked out. Something. She just carpet bombed me the day after this whole campaign and Official Night and never once texted/called/emailed to explain/apologize. Just disappeared.

But I did reach out. I sent her a beatiful text out of the blue two weeks ago expecting notihng, she replied in an hour very happy and implied we should talk. She then without prompting followed up with a text inviting me to the place we met and 'wooed'. Once I acceptd she ignored me for two days and finally texted 'lots happening. can't make firm plans'.  In other words, retreat. And no way back in from that open ended 'not available'.

I then decided to just lay it all out and send a letter to her (there is thread somewhere here with the content) I in fact took ownership of not having appreciated her more as I should have sincei I knew that, any of her possible BPD/damage/behavior aside I'd contributed to the damage and hurt her. In fact I printed it on card stock, reduced it, bound it at Kinkos and delivered it to her apt with flowers. Not a gesture or a letter many women will get in their lives. Especially from a man you supposedly as of a little over two months ago were planning a life with.

Anyway if you didn't read my letter to her, here is the end of it and her reply, which is what has led me to disengaging:

End of my 'mea culpa' (I can't find the thread here sorry):
"If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice. We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours"

The invitation is crystal clear as is the open-ended nature of it. Contact me if and when you want to reconnect, if not I'll always think of you. You can put it in your drawer, give it thought for a few months, come running into my arms. But the meaning is clear.

Her reply (almost immediate):
"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to speak truthfully". Then some crap about how could she reach out at the last minute whe she finds an hour at some indeterminate time in the future, now going on week 2. In other words, reduced my 'poetry' to a note and asked if I could sit by the phone and wait for her summons. An overly negative summary to be sure but man to get a letter/gesture like that and treat it with such lack of importance rankles me. SHE is the person who should have reached out to me after her implosion, she never did, and I think my gesture deserved more respect. The fact it does not speaks volumes.


What no one seems to get is I am not just uncomfortable with it because of matters of the heart. I came here in agony and pain after her stunt and doing online research and finding out about BPD since there was definite Love Bomb and then what appeared to be a discard. I mean how can a woman who was planning your entire future together Saturday AFTER you did the Grand Gesture she insisted on  after months of relentless pushing to be with her  dump you Sunday as if you are a confused suitor and never ever contact you again.

I did a lot of introspection to see where I was wrong and where I wronged her. That does not change the fact that all of her behavior from the day we met to the day we 'broke up' and since is distrubing and highly indicative of BPD and that my letter to her utterly opens me up to addtional devastation. I put my hands own by my side once and got kicked in the face the moment I did. I wrote a letter that did more than put my hands down I opened my soul to her and gave her the keys. So why wouldn't I be terrified? She's not just a woman she is a damaged one with likely extreme BPD tendencies. And now she has a letter where I bare my soul and she has carte blanche to contact me when she finds a free moment and has not.

I got here and to disengage because the response is not positive to me. My "note"? Talk truthfully? Can I reach out when I find a free hour one day? Does that sound good to you? My concern I keep saying is possible devastation from this from *BPD*. Not just a woman. Almost any non BPD woman would read what I wrote and my invitation if she had moved on for whateve reason and say 'nice letter, I'll reply nicely (or not reply) but let him know I've moved on'.

But a BPD woman might not even consider that reaching out so she can hurt me in person for her own needs would be devastating. She had no compunction about making me 'ask' knowing she would run. She had no problem running and never giving me the courtesy of contacting me again leaving me in limbo. Everything about her behavior is BPD. So yes I am terrified of contact, and on top of that I despise that she asked and I allowed her to put me in a position where she can just call me when an hour pops up in her life and I'll come running and likely so she can 'tell me the truth' which, given how things are progressing, does not sound good.

I had my heart broken by a woman I reallllly loved years back and this is 10x worse even though I did not love this woman. It is as you know if you have or had a BPD SO soul and reality crushing.

I want to believe we had something and could Cat. At what point do you beleive the evidence though? I was upset even early on that her need for a relationship for me trumped any needs/limiations/fears I had. Even before we were dating (or had even touched) she was upset I'd always put my mother first when I was trying to save my mother's life at the time (father passed away my mother was slowly emotonally dying and was suicidal).  Her stunts to get me to commit and her 'official ask' (not to marry; to be my girlfriend) were sophmoric and scary, her future bomb was, while appealing, also scary, her imposion and attempt to whitewash what she did and then never contact me was beyond alarming, her reacitons to my love letters was robotic, her immediatw withdrawal after inviting me to 'our place' with the inane 'can't make firm plans' and her response to a letter/flowers most women who actually loved the man would make her swoon "thanks for the note" and her thinking it is ok to ask me to sit by my phone all make me say no, I don't.

If I don't get a text by Friday, I am sending this. Mostly to take some power back here because I really despise the thought she thinks she treat this gesture and me with such disdain where I'll just sit by my phone waiting for her to find a free hour and summon me. She lives 10 blocks away. Her gym is two blocks from 'our place'. She has no kids, few friends. Is this just to show me how unimporant this is? Then just don't reply. In any event I don't want the sword hanging over me. My invite in my letter gave her the opportunity to just wait and contact me if/when she was ready. Not to ask me to sit by my phone so we could 'talk truthfully' when she found a free hour that was meaningless to her. This goes out Friday (11 days after she replied!). It gives her an out for one thing and takes me off the hook waiting and wanting. It makes her make some effort to reach out and if not gives me some closure besides  waiting on her pleasure:

Look *** the letter was not meant to put any obligation on you to reach out or reconnect. Just take the letter for whatever it means to you, there are no strings attached, it is just for you. I do hope it brings you some clarity or peace or happiness. I am as happy and at peace and... .myself again... .as I've been in many years, not in small part from you coming into my life and the things I've figured out since. Let's both enjoy whatever peace and happiness we've found, if our paths are meant to cross one day they will. As always, peace and love... .

I wanted to answer this question Cat since it is key to everything. I had an amazing love years back which I, unfortunately, I guess compare everything to. Love at first site, endless affection, connection, stupid hollywood love.

This was not that, not even close. As I got closer to her though I think I realized not every 'love' is the same and started to trust (trust being the key word) that her intense love bomb of me was not just damage/bs but that she was actually on to something about/between us and my closed heart was what was really in the way. I started to trust how she felt and that it was about me/us and in turn started to open my heart to her and our connection.

Since I don't have an abiding pitter-patter breath-stopping fuzzy lens feeling about her and never did, the only thing that makes/made it special or would make me want an open door is that connection and trust.

If she was in fact seeing other people while pulling me in and asking me for parts of myself she knew were tremendously hard for me to share, then there is no connection or trust is there?

If she set me up for a fall to get back at me, ditto.

If she got terrified and ran from everything she had (I am in this camp given the fact at 34 she'd only had one committed relationship and that 11 years ago) and didn't care enough to reach out with  text, letter ,call, flowers after she caught her breath and just let me... .suffer, then there is no connection or trust is there?

And if she'll take the kind of gesture I made and treat it with such disregard vs cherishing it and treating it with the respect it deserves, then there is no connection or trust.

In all those cases yes I want to close the door. If this were my ex from San Francisco, I'd do the swim-the-deepest-climb-the-highest because I loved her more than any one or thing I've ever seen in my life. I can't replicate that or wait for it.  But if I'm going to accept that there are still valuable relationships I can have with someone I bond with and connect with based on trust and caring, then those qualities are simply required or there is no reason for me to be there. I didn't trust her in the beginning, opened up, let my guard down and paid for it. I've tried to open my heart based on insights into my own failings which caused her pain and let my guard down further and laid my soul out for her to boot. She has one chance to show me that that and I mean something to her and I can trust her. So far she has not and that door is very much on it's way to being closed.

1st timer- if you do wish to disconnect- then that can be done on your part without further contact with her. The more you send emotional messages to her, the more you wait and wonder for a reply.

I don't know if it was meant to hurt you when she pursued you, then you finally reciprocated, and she then became distant.

One red flag in your story with her is that after one night she is planning the whole future with you, and you went along with it. As you know, planning the details of a life together after one night is moving pretty fast.

One very honest response from you - which showed integrity and boundaries- was being forthcoming that her initial interest in you was at a time when you were not in a place emotionally or financially to reciprocate. This isn't a rejection, it is being true to yourself, and it is also real- there are times when people are not at a place to start a new relationship.

The push/pull is an element of high intensity and dysfunctional relationships. She pushed, you were not available. Then you pushed and she pulled back.

If she has BPD, then people with BPD have immaturity when it comes to emotions and relationships. Another red flag is that she has not had a long term one. BPD relationships involve a sort of idealization but the real thing involves real people, and relationships take time, effort, communication and maturity. I guess it is up to you to decide if she was really being vindictive or this is who she is emotionally- short unstable relationships may be who she is. What happened may be less about you but about the level of relationship she is capable of.

It's important to know what you really want.

Hi Notwendy, thanks for the reply. I do get that except that the last reply from her puts me in an untenable situation; she asked if (in reply to the flowers and bound letter/poem) she could 'reach out an hour or so before I know I'm available' and I stupidly said yes. So now I am in a situation where I put my soul/heart on the line and allowed her to basically keep me in thrall. My follow-up as I see it basically says 'look never mind just take the letter for what it is worth'. Sure she can still reply and sure I can still wonder but I take the 'sitting by my phone waiting for you to decide we can 'talk truthfully' at a moments notice and still exit nicely and say basically 'not sitting around waiting'. Then if she does want to reach out she has to do so more honestly IMHO and with a little respect. I deserve it.

I still do not think that. I mentioned when she came uptown to confirm I'd asked and would officially ask friday for her to be my gf that she got so excited and said 'so many people are going to want to meet you I haven't had a real boyfriend in over 10 years'. From a 50 year old divorce not so alarming from a 34 year old girl? Major commitment issues major abandoment issues (dad left when she was 8). I don't think she did this on purpose. I jsut think she could have rescued the whole thing with a text 'sorry I freaked out I can't do this!' I wouldn't be here then


Oooh that was not our first night. I mean when she first met she was very much about 'us' and a future, but this was our first night together officially as a couple after 14 months of contact/pursuite and 4 months of undetermined relationship but very close. She made it clear she wanted a real relatoionship, said if I did I needed to ask her to be my gf, I did, I asked her to reboot and have a real first date and we did where I asked again, and that is when we spent our first night together *officially* as a couple (whatever that means I never did that in my life I just ended up in what were clearly relationships, some clues are the girls giving you keys to her place and empyting drawers in her bedroom).

So it wasn't like we met, had sex, she planned a future. She just saw the official 'be my gf' as I see it now as a 'be my fiance' thus the discussions on what roles we'd have ("you did say you want to be provider and protector right?" and "I'm going to keep my job I love it" etc). She saw commited/monoganous relationship as precursor to engagement. I saw it as I could now start giving myself fully and we could see what we had. I did buy into the whole future bomb as I had not had that in years so got caught up in the friday nights in our new king size bed, saturdays exloring city on official date night, her supporting me in growing and sharing in my business, meeting family, etc. But no it was not like 'hop in sack then plan future'.

Yah she jsut didn't care. And here is where I think I deserved some 'credit' from both her and her family in terms of 'treating her like a lady'. She made some very forward sexual suggestions on our first 'date' (she pressed me for) and next day told me about how much iked me, wanted relationship etc. ALL of my male friends were like 'dude man take her up on the ABC sex thing. She wants you bad. Take her to nice place, tell her nice things, she is yours to do with as you will'. And I did not. Because taking something from her based on false pretenses to get what I wanted was wrong.  The funny thing is her Mom and Sis would have loved these guys (at first) since they would have been 'courting' her all the while all they cared about was sex not her. I think it said volumes about how I respected her, women, relationships, etc.

She on the other hand had no problem asking me to not move to California and stay and buy a place with her (in a city she knew I depsaratley wanted to get away from as it reminded me of all my family loss), to take care of her when she was sick, to take her keys, to move my stuff into her bedroom, to go to family events, to officially call her gf, etc.

But the thing is notWendy I didn't push and she pulled back. She pulled HARDER and I  finally agreed. She made me jump through hoops to prove I was agreeing and did want full on commitment. Once I did she pulled back. To me a critical distincion. Otherwise it would just be a story about bad timing.

Totally i get that. I knew (or think I do) why she ran the moment she got it. The girl had one short relationship when she was 22 nothing her entire 20s and through mid-30. Mostly (if she is to be believed) emotionally and physically abusive men. I treated her fabulously depsite my holding her at arms lenght. And then she went from me being at arms lenght to me giving her everything she wanted, jumping through all the hoops and ending up holding her in my arms at night the way she'd always asked me to and discussing which bed we'd get and our roles etc. I bet if fr-eaked her out. I get it. My whole issue and why I ended up here is that she never reached out to say "I am so sorry. I know I pushed you for all that and I know you didn't just 'misunderstand'. I'm scared. I'm terrified. I'm not good at relationships". I could have worked with her, taken a step back, gone back to being friends or helped take the pressure off. But she just imploded on me and never contacted me again.

Believe me I get where she is coming from and can step back and see things like her reply to my (IMHO) amazing gesture was to protect herself. I'm guessing no on in her life ever sent her something like that and, again despite my arms lenght, treated her like I did. I get it it is scary.

If she's the scared woman/girl looking to cirlce back into the relationship and really meant all the things she said, I want to work with her to get there. If she is a full of s*** BPD who goes from man to man doing this, I want to run for the hills. All I've been tyring to do is find a way to reconnect in a way I can protect myself at the same time.
[/quote]

1st, I've excerpted some sentences from your posts:

I was also hurt by her utter disregard for where I was or came from and simply wanting what she wanted.

I think my gesture deserved more respect. The fact it does not speaks volumes.

I mean how can a woman who was planning your entire future together Saturday AFTER you did the Grand Gesture she insisted on  after months of relentless pushing to be with her  dump you Sunday as if you are a confused suitor and never ever contact you again.

all of her behavior from the day we met to the day we 'broke up' and since is distrubing and highly indicative of BPD

So yes I am terrified of contact, and on top of that I despise that she asked and I allowed her to put me in a position where she can just call me when an hour pops up in her life and I'll come running and likely so she can 'tell me the truth' which, given how things are progressing, does not sound good.

At what point do you beleive the evidence though? I was upset even early on that her need for a relationship for me trumped any needs/limiations/fears I had. Even before we were dating (or had even touched) she was upset I'd always put my mother first when I was trying to save my mother's life at the time (father passed away my mother was slowly emotonally dying and was suicidal).  Her stunts to get me to commit and her 'official ask' (not to marry; to be my girlfriend) were sophmoric and scary, her future bomb was, while appealing, also scary, her imposion and attempt to whitewash what she did and then never contact me was beyond alarming, her reacitons to my love letters was robotic, her immediatw withdrawal after inviting me to 'our place' with the inane 'can't make firm plans' and her response to a letter/flowers most women who actually loved the man would make her swoon "thanks for the note" and her thinking it is ok to ask me to sit by my phone all make me say no, I don't.

Since I don't have an abiding pitter-patter breath-stopping fuzzy lens feeling about her and never did, the only thing that makes/made it special or would make me want an open door is that connection and trust.

And if she'll take the kind of gesture I made and treat it with such disregard vs cherishing it and treating it with the respect it deserves, then there is no connection or trust... .In all those cases yes I want to close the door. I didn't trust her in the beginning, opened up, let my guard down and paid for it.


Reading these excerpts, I see some patterns:

*She has repeatedly shown that she is more focused upon her own wants and needs than yours.

*You feel she has disrespected your openness to having a relationship with her.

*Her behavior seems consistent with BPD.

*She felt that she was more important than your mother's needs for emotional support.

*Her behavior has been scary and hurtful and you don't trust her.

*You are not in love with her and never have been.


Here's my thoughts on this: I've been married to two men with BPD. The first was violent, financially irresponsible and repeatedly cheated on me. The second is kind, loving and responsible. Had I known what I was getting into beforehand, I never would have married the first, and possibly not the second. That said, I never was in love with the first; he roped me into a relationship and the next thing I knew, we were living together, just because I acquiesced to his plans. Years passed, I tried to make it work, we got more entrenched and life became hellish.

I was madly in love with the second. It took years before the BPD behavior became obvious to me. We still have a good time together and from what I've learned here and through counseling, I'm quite happy. Still, it's not like having a healthy relationship with a psychologically normal man. I do the lion's share of the emotional lifting. It seems unfair at times and it is.

So, knowing what you know about her, do you even want to contact her again or like Notwendy says, you can disconnect by doing nothing further?

If she's the scared woman/girl looking to cirlce back into the relationship and really meant all the things she said, I want to work with her to get there. If she is a full of s*** BPD who goes from man to man doing this, I want to run for the hills. All I've been tyring to do is find a way to reconnect in a way I can protect myself at the same time.


What is closer to the truth is that a woman with BPD is actually both of these. They can be both a scared girl/woman wanting the relationship and then also an angry and hurtful person when dysregulated. They are prone to unstable relationships so the man to man thing could be part of that. Some pwBPD have had long term relationships- my BPD mother was married to my father for decades until he passed away. As expected, the marriage had it's challenges but they both chose it.

She is who she is- the whole package. The woman you fell for and the woman who hurt you. If you get together with her, you will get the whole package. It's your choice to reach out to her, but there is no way to tell how she will respond. Ultimately, it is you who can make the choice to stay involved in some way, or to move on from it. No matter what you said to each other, neither of you has made a more permanent commitment to stay with each other. ( marriage, engagement)  Either of you can walk away without explanation.

Hi Cat, I'd agree with most of those. I lost site of that in my 'journey' to understand my own role in this and/or to explain why/how she could implode and leave on me the day after she got the committment she wanted.

In terms of not being in love with her; no never. But I did realize I'd gotten very close to her, that she was, in many ways, very good to me, and felt if I put my guard down finally and started giving to her without withholding there might be something really good there. I also got sucked into the future-bomb; waking up with a girl I liked in my arms and lounging around half-naked doing nothing was a far cry from the last ten years. Having her interested in supporting my hugely difficult endeavor and speaking to her about it and her sharing in the success likewise is something I dream of and was now (for the next 18 hours) part of my life. So I was not 'in love with her' but cared about her a lot and felt if I started putting the energy into the relationship I know I'm capable of it might well ignite off hers.

I suppose I wanted to reconnect for answers. If the answer was she got scared and didn't beleive my feelings and now does and there is a real woman in there I think there may be something really nice. I mean let's face it; we 'dated' for 4 months if you can call it that, we only made love once, only slept in my arms once, only had a real date as a couple once. Yet clearly we are both still deeply connected to this. I can dismiss her language yet she has reached out pretty hard each time I do and could easily have ignored the flowers/letter or just sent a nice "Thanks. No need to reconnect" but did not. She could have said ":)oing fine hope you are" to my text but reached out to meet immediatly. There is clearly something there (just witness the amount of energy I've put into it).

I can't really do nothing further as my move was "I am ready to have you back in my life if/when you are reach out" and hers was to reach out (as guarded as it was) to meet.  Except now I have to wait for the call. So as I see it if I want to diffuse or change the narrative I need a reply that calls her on not calling and says as per my post basically "Look never mind just keep the thoughts in the letter and let's go our own ways". It can either serve as a good bye or a good way to see if she'll walk in on those terms.

Of course. Except doing so to someone you care for (especially after eliciting a 'formal' committed relationship the day before) is cruel. As I believe is replying to my gesture and asking me to wait by my phone. Revenge in both cases? Who cares. I just thought my reply would extricated me a bit and not leave me vulnerable to either

a) her thinking I'm waiting by the phone at her leisure

b) her reaching out and my needing to find a way decline (which would be quite screwed up) and I am quickly reaching that point

c) her reaching out just to meet me and tell me something crappy, that is where I entered this site

d) her emailing me something that allows her to end it crappy e.g. 'thought about it I think best not to seeing someone' etc.

In other words opened myself on every front to her whim.

This way I basically tell her I'm not waiting for you to call, let's just call the letter a nice goodbye.

I mitigate A-D which, for petty reasons or not, are important to me not to deal with after all this. Because honestly all I've done then is walk myself right back into that coffee shop the last day where she wanted me to be and I walked out with some dignity.

Hey 1stimer , as I read your post and all the others I see a very immense similarity to mine (very similar).As I read this post I could literally feel how you felt writing this because I’ve felt that way myself .I won’t rehash my experience but it’s on this site to read ,you will see how all over the place I was as well at the beginning.I think I can help you here if you bare with me a moment. Allow me to explain all the mistakes I made at the beginning with my exGF who today is my friend and how with the help of this site and a therapist and change of mindset  I fixed a lot about myself . I was as you were someone who fell in love with my exGF who has BPD and is in therapy only now for this .My expectations were very very similar to yours in the moving forward with the relationship, the annoyance and anger at the push and pull .Overall I was angry and bitter at things that I thought should move one way but didn’t .Now I’m not saying being angry and things not going our way isn’t normal ,what I am saying is it doesn’t help things.Yes you are hurt and disappointed as was I .When I would get angry I “checked out “ of the situation , then when she would “ check out” if further be upset.It was a viscous emotional circle of who’s more angry and who’s right who’s wrong.Whos hurt more and who or what was the cause .When people would point it out if always try justifying my side and my actions because I thought they were right? I thought hey shawn you are the normal one here so you have to be correct ? Well ... .nope that wasn’t the case ... .allow me to explain why

Upon entering therapy and reading the posts people made to me here, as well as stopping the drinking and finally feeling sorry for myself I said enough! How and what do I need to change so that this never happens again , and how do I stop hurting someone that I claim to love and why/how did I hurt them ,I needed to understand.How did I do that ? I stopped putting myself first .I stopped saying to myself , how could she have done this to me, how can she not see I love her.I started replacing these thoughts with , how did she feel when I left her once? How did she feel when I said I didn’t want to keep the baby? How did she feel when she let me go that Saturday ? How do I make her feel when I do and say the things I do? How does she feel when I don’t agree with what I believe she should act like as a response to my request or comment. Once I started doing this (even though we were no longer together) , a light bulb flipped on in my brain! All I said to myself was oohhhhh sxxt , what did I go and do? Now I get it , This epiphany was as good to have in a normal relationship ,it had even more value in a relationship with someone who has BPD.

Where I’m going with this is the following.Please try this exercise although hard to do it has great value in it,my therapist helped me to do it.Write down all the moments that didn’t go so well for you and her these past months as an example : The day after we decided to be officlal she said she didn’t want to anymore . Etc etc do as many as you can .Then read them one by one and write down what or how you think SHE felt during those moments (not you ). Then once you do this read both the example and response then ask yourself why do you think she felt this way.Be as neutral as possible , then put it away , read it again in a few days see if you still think the same things.Why did this exercise make sense to me? And worked ? Because I realized then and there I never really took her feelings into perspective at those moments because my feelings were in the way.Training yourself to push aside what you want,what you think,and why , to put someone else’s emotions first ,is very tuff and goes against human nature.

Right now my best advice I could give you is to take a step back.You did what you needed to do with the note and flowers .Do not assume these things went unnoticed,do not assume they had no effect .Just step back and do yourself a favor ,work on yourself .I foreone have a huge character issue that I’m working on (one of many but this one is the worst one for me), I hate feeling vulnerable.Maybe for you it is something else .Work on yourself keeping in mind that you are only human and beating yourself up about what happened or trying to see who’s the blame , or guessing or assuming how she feels about you or the situation , will heal nothing,fix nothing .and everyone comes out losing this way. I went no contact (not blocking her just me stepping back) for one full month.One of the tuffest months of my life and I was in the military so we had some ruff times there but that no contact month was worse.Not speaking or reaching out to someone you love immensely is brutal but in situations like this necessary.

Why you ask? Because coming back or reaching out at a later time ( if it works or not doesn’t matter) , you will want to be a better version of you today.Better tools at hand ,better mind frame , better emotionally stable just over all better again why? For yourself but also for her or any future woman... Because if she does decide to see or speak to you in the future (never assume she won’t), she will want/need a more empathetic version of you.Think I may be exaggerating,well it worked for me it really did.How ? When I met her two sundays ago for dinner , I had my confidence back ,my self esteem back ( all things she was attracted to at the beginning as I’m sure your ex was ), but the most important part? I listened to her every word, I didn’t expect anything from her,I was whole heartedly there to listen and be with her happy for her hearing some good news coming from her.I was happy to see her again and just to relish the moment of being there again with no (shawn expectations) no (shawn wants or would likes ) nope none .It felt very good to be able to encourage her and her the good things she’s doing in therapy for herself .I still love her very much but I understand/ understood that a lot of the anxiety and bad feelings I stimulated because I never put her truely first were huge mistakes even more so with someone troubled with BPD whose emotions are much more intense than ours .

I didn’t want to copy and paste and quote on your post for one simple reason... .  it hit too close to home before I centered myself .All I ask if you have the time ,read mine take that 20-30minutes you will see a striking similarity in the emotional state  I was I. When writing it ,it frankly reminds me of you now.You can do this 1sttimer don’t give up don’t throw in that emotional towel ,use us here ,learn from our mistakes brother.

Thanks  Shawnlam, I do see similarities indeed, I think we connected a couple threads back on that. I also have done a lot of work to 'step out' and understand what I did and how she might have felt, even in the day she cut-and-ran. As you know if you read my letter to her i did reach out to let her know I'd realized where I let her down and how and most of it stemming from protecting myself and not appreciating or understanding her in the process.  I too did the VERY reactive responses and realize as i re-read some of our exchanges she handle those (likely with the direct help of her therapist) with aplomb and I just get reacting. I get all that and I think I've got a handle on it and am, as I said in the letter to her, ready to be that man she was attracted to at first that did listen, care, protect, appreciate.

I suppose I dropped the ball on the last step and jumped back to reactive vs empathetic. Sure I didn't love the seemingly tepid reply to the gesture yet knowing her and how she (at least professed to have) felt, that letter and words must have meant a lot. I reacted harshly to her request to reach out on an hours notice too as it seemed disrespectful of such a gesture and seemed to say it is the very least important thing in the world to me but if I ever find an hour to meet you be ready at the drop of a hat.

Naturally that is me at my most reactive, exactly what I'm trying to learn to stop doing with her.

Since it became very clear on comments she made the last couple days she was shocked and almost disbelieving of my 'coming around' with comments such as 'I'm shocked to hear you mention me to your friends' or 'I'm still trying to take in the new way you are treating me, I love it but am trying to get used to it' or even her insistence on a grand gesture or her comment that really slayed me "I didn't even know you LIKED when I sat in your lap at the dinner we made' when I was in heaven I realize that that was one of her big issues; trusting my motivations and my feelings which seemed clearly to her to be out of the blue.

It is what led me to write the letter to her; clearly I did not do a good job of showing her my appreciation of her if so many things she did she had no idea what they meant to me. Even when she (according to her to make me jealous) messed around with a guy in the apartment she had offered me the keys to and made space in her bedroom drawers for me and I got upset. I realized I couldn't very well get mad at her for sharing something so intimate to us if I never even expressed how much those gestures meant or my joy in her sharing them with me.

Which gets me to understanding the response to the letter; sure she got a nice letter a few weeks after we broke up but nothing like this. The fact she even replied immediatly is amazing because it would be a whole lot to process. This guy you chased for months and thought couldn't care really one way or another, whose motivations for committing to you you did not trust, has now poured his heart out to you two full months later. Not about how he felt about you per se but with a deep understanding about how his inability to really show you his appreciation let alone reciprocate affected you AND how he in fact deeply appreciated you. AND how he wants to return to your life having 'found' his way back to himself and the man she fell in love with (or deep like at least). So expecting her to just come running was not reasonable. Not if I'm stepping back and being the man I professed to be in the letter is it? I said in the letter "Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts... ."

So I guess that man should give her the time and space to really process what she has read. If she needs time to reach out when SHE is ready I should let her have it and not put all sorts of negative spins on it (she's back with abusive bf and trying to find an hour when he is out shopping) and just let her have the time and space to remember the man she wanted so much and to wonder what it would be like to have him back in her life as that man.

Pearl had some real words of wisdom on the first draft of the letter where I had all these options e.g. freinds in the sunlight or whispers in the dark etc etc and she said 'just open the door to being with who she loved again and let HER run with the possibilities. She did once right?

So thanks for the insights and pointing out the similarities. Coming back to empathy/validation and away from reactive/fear is a constant process apparently.

She has the book to read whenever she needs reminding, she has her memories I'm sure that triggers. I'll live up to the "Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles" since that is the man I'm asking her to return to.

Hey 1stTimer it seems like you are giving this relationship a lot of thought. 

Listen man... .I'm a recovering "overthinker"  (some others on here that know me well might be saying "recovering?"

I'm an ESTJ... .so I'm very thoughtful about the way I consider things.  Time after time I get myself in trouble by "thinking" that I understand how someone else is "perceiving" things (basically... .that I think I know what someone else thinks).

Is it possible that's what you are unintentionally doing here?  Perhaps a bit of overthinking?

I've got to run over and do some work on my horse trailer and some other farm chores.  I'll be considering your situation for a bit here... .hopefully we can connect again later this evening.

FF

Probable. A lot of. :)

See my last I think I came to a bad spot. I'm an overthinker in general (serves me well in my work) but this was just like a vortex of everything in my life over the last decade plus so it all exploded into one big mess I've been trying to unravel and see what fits where. Most of this is likely not even about her.  Heading to the gym for my double road-class that usually shuts the old brain off.

Hey... .great on the quick reply.

Listen... from one overthinker to another... .can we add in "more analysis" (yep... more thought) and less "action" (no more texting or letters for a bit)?

I was worried when I saw the "she better (fill in the blank) by Friday or I'm gonna... .   (I just can't imagine anything good would come of it)

That will give me an others time to sort through this. 

I'll give you a quick preview... .I've learned to somewhat use "push pull" to my advantage.  My first impression is you don't grasp the reality of push pull (again... very early "preview judgment".

Just know I see a lot of hope in this!

FF

Nope, I don't control Push Pull like I should I react to it. I'm trying to stop being reactive. Then maybe Push-Pull will work for me too :)

You see a lot of hope for "this" meaning my learning of this me and her?

Anyway if you care to see my reply a couple back

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326613.msg12980341#msg12980341

Wherein I got past my reactive stage to my considered one and basically summarized the way you did:

So I guess that man should give her the time and space to really process what she has read. If she needs time to reach out when SHE is ready I should let her have it and not put all sorts of negative spins on it (she's back with abusive bf and trying to find an hour when he is out shopping) and just let her have the time and space to remember the man she wanted so much and to wonder what it would be like to have him back in her life as that man.
... .
She has the book to read whenever she needs reminding, she has her memories I'm sure that triggers. I'll live up to the "Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles" since that is the man I'm asking her to return to.

Hey 1st,
This is beautiful! And very courageous, bold, romantic--you're on the right track! Kudos!

We have no guarantees in life as you well know, but by bringing our best selves forward, we are more likely to find reciprocity and happiness.

I hear her insecurity in the anecdotes that you wrote about--wondering if you really cared, surprised that you talked about her to your friends, not realizing that you liked her sitting in your lap.

I was very awkward as a young single woman, not reading the signs correctly, not realizing that some young man I liked also liked me. I had a lot of insecurity--how could anyone really like me? Dating and relationships were scary. You say she's had quite a history with abusive men. It's no wonder that she would be gun shy.

You come across as sort of the "strong silent type"--the classic honorable gentleman. You didn't want to lead her on when you weren't ready, but at the same time, you apparently weren't sending out signals that let her know how much you liked her.

One way to look at this situation is that your signals were crossed and neither you nor her were reading the other correctly. Now you've laid your cards on the table. She knows where you stand. The ball is in her court, to mix metaphors.

Yes, you put yourself in a vulnerable position. You want an answer and waiting for it is not what you'd hoped. But that's what is.

Looking at your situation from a different perspective--you've been very brave and shared your honest feelings. You've had time to examine your motivations and wonder how she feels about you and the relationship. You've learned some very important lessons that will serve you well, whether or not this particular relationship bears fruit. All in all, you've been heroic and gallant and let her know that she has touched your heart and that you're a better person for knowing her. Isn't that a beautiful message that you've given her?

Good work, 1st!
Cat

Hi Cat, thanks so much for that it made me day. That's the man I want her to want again :) I was decidedly not heroic nor gallant at the end. I'm off to the gym for an insane 120 minute class so this post will help get me through a good part of it. I might just turn to the person near me during the treadmill sprint part of the class and say "I'm heroic and gallant!" and increase my speed :)

BTW not sure if you ever read the whole letter or even care to but if not and if so I'm including below so you can see what I put out there and why feeling so vulnerable and what she is processing now. FYI I printed it in cursive script, had it put on card-stock, reduced, and spiral bound into a book with her name on top and then attached that by twine to a bouquet of flowers:

~~~~

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you, and each I might have, and let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say  to you or even myself.
  
Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of the most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day”. Words I wish I’d shared on a magic night and words I wish I’d lived by.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated. I still remember texts from you that took my breath away you never even knew I saw because I couldn’t find the courage to tell you how much they meant to me.

And then I remembered that being a man is putting aside your fear and making your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated
always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these long years.  

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.  

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place.

I believe he’s the one you knew you could trust with your dreams, with your smiles, with your tears, with your life.

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.
 
We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours

Beautiful piece of writing, 1st.

Let this be a promise to yourself that you will express your love, devotion and appreciation in the moments when you are having those feelings.

As FDR said, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself-nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance... ."

Well, I would say there's lots of things to fear, but we are not protecting ourselves when we don't express our feelings with those we care about. If those feelings aren't reciprocated, it's gonna hurt either way, whether we've let our guard down and shared or if we've kept them bottled up inside.

Well I definitely know how :) My last relationship was astonishing as we both did just that endlessly and it just fed on it self like... a star. I was ready to start sharing that part of myself at the same time (I think) she was questioning if I even really liked her or why I'd turned around. When I did my 'official ask' it wasn't 'let's not sleep with other people' it was "I'm ready to give you everything I have" but I think we just miscommunicated the hell out of each other. Tragic sort of; she's on my lap in the candlelight at the dinner table thinking 'he doesn't even like this', my eyes are practically rolling in my head.

So we'll give her time to process how I felt the whole time and where I've come to. I'm sure it means a lot more than she let on.  I'm also holding out 'hope' since she did reach out to me to meet before I sent this letter at 'our place' on her own so she wanted to meet at a special place even then. Now she has some real information to process before she does.

Stay tuned... .


[/quote]

Well everyone I have come to a conclusion; although my initial reactive reactions are often overly emotional and often ill-considered and should without a doubt be kept to myself at least a day I should not simply throw out those gut insights in favor of the rational/empathetic reactions I come to the next day which often veer too far in the opposite direction. My goal is to learn to synthesize the two (means keep reactive stuff to myself, revist once I do rational next day).

That said I think my reactive reaction to this Grand Gesture was spot on. It doesn't even matter why she has reacted the way she has so I'll remove the various emotional states I ascribed to her previously. I for one think there will be some revelation down the road far and away from just 'conflicted'. Not sure if this is a third-party (grandma:  if you see him again you are out of the will) but something is amiss besides just conflict or hurt.

From the moment this girl said in early April 'you will ask me to be your girlfriend by the end of the month you just don't know it yet but count on it' all the insanity started and I was basically herded down (what turned out to be) a slaughter chute.  By which I mean the girl with full planning and intent made damn sure I was asking and committing to everything she wanted. That last week alone with making sure the Official Dinner her goal was single-mindedly that that dinner was happening and that commitment was being asked and made by me. That is not 'conflicted'. Where the next day tear it all down comes from I don't know. However the pattern is now crystal clear:

1) Months long relentless and then month long intense campaign to get me to commit to her not just as boyfriend but as her future. The next day she changes her mind entirely as if I was the one who asked, tears us apart and I never hear from her again (yeah I know I stormed out but it as incumbent upon her to explain/reach out not me given the circumstances)

2) When I reached out two months later, she immediately reached out to invite me out, of all places in NY to 'our place' where she picked me up and we met/wooed. The moment I replied she went radio silent and when I followed up shes shut me down just like she did when she pulled the plug; making it seem as if I was asking for something she could not give 'lots happening. can't make plans'.

3) When I reached out with the Grand Gesture, she again immediately replied and asked me if we could meet that week (my letter making it clear I was offering her the chance to reach out to me and have me in her life again and see if we could start over again) but could she reach out an hour before she found herself free. I agreed because since the gesture came out of the blue and she wanted to meet ASAP, she'd need to juggle time to make that happen. I agreed to be available to her. That was almost two weeks ago. No call. No 'sorry can we make it next week'. Nothing Exactly like the first two disappearances.

WHATEVER the reason is, BPD, multiple personality disorder, grandmother threatening inheritance, possessive ex-bf back in picture who reads her emails and controls her time, just plain selfishness, utterly not caring about me, it really doesn't matter. Because do I want her in my life in any case?

Here is what I know I'm getting even if she DOES reach out and it is lovey-dovey and why I am going to close this Conflicted thread and go back to detacthing. I'd love to be supported in this as my goal is to get myself mentally/emotionally prepared for her inevitable reappearance which will not be good why or when or how it happens. I know that now. To re-cap:

1) She disregarded every boundary I had when I could not date and asked for things she knew would cause me stress w/o caring; for instance on the Birthday I refer to in the card that I did not 'appreciate enough' what I don't mention is while we were sitting later on she asked me if I thought I could stay in NYC and buy her and I a place when I made it. Knowing that I was reticent about getting into dating again she is basically putting marriage on the table, knowing that my ex-fiance left me when I lost everything and women/money is a trigger basicaly implied that money was her goal, and knowing that I desperately wanted to move out of NYC to get away from a decade of loss and despair she asked me stay anyway to be with her. So unsaid in that 'beautiful letter' is one of the reasons I withheld appreciation from her. Ditto her and her mother/sister always telling me I should court her, when one of the main reasons I told her I had NOT dated in ten+ years as that I could not properly woo or date or support a woman so asking only made me feel like crap (never mind I was NOT dating her for that very reason)

2) She made some extremely disturbing comments about fidelity which she later recanted but it was tool late IMHO, to wit that she would date this guy knowing full well she'd cheat on him and that she knew she'd even marry him knowing the same thing. She'd steal his right to a faithful marriage and make him a laughing stock in front of her and his friends so she could have what she wanted, which sort of mirrors #1 above. People getting caught up in infidelity I get, a woman who actually premeditates is terrifying and this comment is actually what set me spinning like a top and ruined every interaction after.

3) Her insane last week of us NOT being committed until I officially asked as if that has any bearing on where a person stands in their heart and sould and the single-minded focus she put on making sure that dinner and official ask happened. Other things happened that night that all made it seem like I was dealing with a 15 year old and the prom, not a grown woman, from the way she handled being picke up by car, to the way she didn't know what to do when the hostesst took us to her table, to the entire NEED to ask officially to be girlfriend/boyfriend i.e. going-steady. It was and is very distrubing and made me wonder at the time if the 'things you need to know about me' included being institiuonalized for many years. Seriously.

4) The fact that instead of taking responsibility for her cut-and-run whatever the reason, she tried to make it sound like I was simply a f-buddy who got my wires crossed which compouned the awful and sudden loss with a break from reality itself.

5) The fact that she never reached out once to see how I was, to explain via text or phone or email or mail or with flowers or a card what had happened and simply disappeared from my life like I didn't exist. This is why in fact I ended up AT bpdfamily in the first place

6) The fact that when I sent a totally undeserved love letter 3 weeks later, probably the first time she'd ever heard the extent to which I cared about her so much, this woman who had spent 18 months pressuring me for a relationship and less than a month ago had been planning our lives together called it a note and didn't give me a thing back "Thanks for the note. hope you've been well"

7) The fact that she could call a 6-page card-stock printed spiral bound almost poetic apology and acknowledgement of what she meant to me bound in twine to a boquet of flowers, along with a sentence most women would cherish "I believe I have found the man I was both from having you in my life and losing you from my life" a 'thoughtful note' is demeaning and I believe intentionally so. I'm going to guess she never got anything like this in her entire life. Most women I know never did and this girl is as plain-jane no make-up shy as you get so it's not like she's a model with suitors. And even then you don't get letters like this. And she has had no long-term or serious relationships except for one as she called it sham marriage. So this has to be a near one of a kind gesture and she diminishes it to the status a 'Honey I took out the trash don't worry' note.

8) The fact that she would even reply if she did not want reconnect as the letter is quite clear that if she WANTS to she can and WHEN she wants and if NEVER that is ok too but it is still crystal clear I am saying reach out if you want to reconnect with me and try again with open hearts. So either don't reach out at all, say Thank You but no Thank You, or Thank you but I'm seeing someone or Thank you I may reach out one day or nothing. But the worst thing is replying IMMEDIATLY, asking me to be available at the drop of a hat in the next few days and then, as with her ther reach outs, simply disappearing. Not a 'week got away from me, i really want to see you" just the exact same implied "I changed my mind" or even "I forgot all about you".

What I am saying is that even in the 'best case' scenario if she reached out professing her undying love, there is something fundamentally wrong with her. or to put less of a value judgment on it, something fundamentally different in almost every category than what I want in a woman or partner or friend. It disturbs me top to bottom.

So I am still happy that the gesture, while probably over and above waht she deserved, was "Heroic and Gallant' and will, despite any of what she shows to me in her replies, have an impact on her and her life. I'll leave it at that as I don't want her life in mine, I think it can only be continually toxic and disturbing.

Thus I am starting a thread in Detach which documents in detail the situation, as I believe it is important to do so. Much of what happened here got derailed by me in trying to understand, make amends, take ownership and the actuality of what happened started to sound more like a guy who didn't appreciate a woman until it was too late and then got mad when she said it is too late and lashed out at her and broke her heart. I get where my letters and mea culpa may have given that impression, that is not what happened and I think it is good to come full circle and start a detach with what did so that I can hopefully be supported there in preparing myself for her inevitable reach out so I can be in a place to protect myself from further harm.

I do thank everyone who has supported me in Bettering from Pearl to GemsforEyes (great name man!), Shawnlam, Once Removed, and of course Skip. See some or all of you in Detaching.

Finally I will say what I got from her is invaluable, my heart IS open again to loving, and what I got from here is invaluable, tools for learning to communicate with and appreciate the person I do end up loving.

8)

Well everyone I have come to a conclusion; although my initial reactive reactions are often overly emotional and often ill-considered and should without a doubt be kept to myself at least a day I should not simply throw out those gut insights in favor of the rational/empathetic reactions I come to the next day which often veer too far in the opposite direction. My goal is to learn to synthesize the two (means keep reactive stuff to myself, revist once I do rational next day).


You've articulated this very well. It's a challenge harmonizing thinking and feeling, but that's where wisdom resides.

It sounds like you're finding resolution and are congruent with your thoughts and feelings. Good work!  |iiii

Thanks Cat. However I'm feeling like a fool here as I keep thinking I've 'found resolution' and I just keep bouncing all over the place. I probably sound like a self-indulgent fool given some of the situations with pwBPD people find themselves in here from physical abuse to long-term marriages and children getting torn apart.  Yes this was 'just' a short-term relationship but, if you read any of the history, was my first real human/romantic contact in well over a decade filled with high-drama conflict, death and loss. The first 'morning' we spent as a couple (day before she pulled the stunt) was the first day in many years I didn't start off all alone on my pc working out of starbucks but on a couch, in my tee-shirt with a girl who was crazy about me in my lap, discussing our future no less. So it was a huge thing to have ripped away the next day. I can hardly type that sentence man.

So I guess I'm keeping this in conflict now because man I have no idea how I feel. Besides crushed. Besides utterly confused.

If I do keep this in Conflict I'd like the board/groups "permission" to recast the support discussion narrative away from where it veered which is largely my fault due to a very complicated story, long rambling narratives, and my changing the focus to my taking ownership of my own behavior and how it affected her. I think that in turn recast the narrative to something like this "Boy meets girl. Girl wants relationship. Boy wants casual. Boy one day decides he wants a relationship. Too late for the girl who says no since she has moved on. Boy lashes out in anger and leaves the girl high and dry, confused and hurt on top of the months of unrequited love she dealt with.

That more or less colored the response/narrative I think into this just being an issue of bad timing, of her being hurt and me needing to understand that. The actual narrative is far different and painful and is what led me her originally (before I transitioned into letters to make amends).

What I'd like to do then if possible is re-articulate the last 5-6 weeks which ended up leading me here, so I can try to get some support while conflicting centered around that actuality and get some insight/tools into how to either detach or at very least to be prepared for her eventually reaching out to me. Clearly after 11 weeks I'm as raw as I was then and clearly there is heavy stuff for her too. Pretty amazing given sporadic textng for a year, a 4 month semi-casual relationship with a little heavy petting, one actual day of love making, one day of staying over at her place and very little dating so I'm guessing there was something very real there. Even if not it is somehow very real now and I can't get past conflict to Detach and I can't bring myself to take any more steps to Better so my best bet as I see it is to see if I can re-narrate the end that drove me here to see if anyone can give me some insights into moving one direction or another away from conflict and I'll hold off moving this to Detach as I planned.

OK. What I see is that your heart hasn't yet caught up with your head. That's OK. Feelings just are. And you opened your heart and then the unexpected happened.

As you now know, there's something really compelling about pwBPD. So often, those of us who aren't as emotional seem to get caught up with them and then wonder how the hell did we end up in this situation.

I stayed in a marriage with a man that I never fell in love with for nearly twenty years. I didn't even like him that much. And why? I dunno, but there was something compelling about him that allowed me to tolerate awful behavior over and over... .until I couldn't.

PwBPD can certainly create a melodrama and recruit us to play a part. Maybe that would be of use to examine what your part in this relationship was. I could see her casting you as the knight in shining armor out to rescue her. Does that have any resonance with you?

I think the whole issue was acknowledging she was pwBPD instead of my owning the issue. She never did knight in shining armor per se. She was very high functioning (good job, good credit, immaculate) but I did help her with quite a bit. She never played damsel in distress and never acted like she needed rescuing. She did start to open up about her boss, being treated for blackout drinking etc but more as a person getting closer to me.

Not sure if it is my heart not catching up on the detach per se. Just think I am re-processing this by going back to the original scenario vs the guy-asked-too-late-lashed-out narrative i.e. the one I wrote the letter for. It was a clear and very intense 4-5 week period of spinning me out of control into commitment. No damsel stuff per se.

Right now since I just can't honestly honestly say I'm in detach as I have no idea what I'd do (or WILL do) when she reaches out. What I hope to be is in Detached by then, if not at least with some tools to protect myself (vs court, validate, understand HER which is where we sort of ended up). Unless she is EVIL there is a reaosn she worked so hard to get me to commit, there is a reason she reached out to meet 2 months later, there is a reason she reached out in response to my gesture/offer immediately. So since there is clearly something between us I need to be prepared for when she reaches out one way or the other.

I managed to avoid the Devaluation and skip to Discard I don't want anyway for her to get a chance to hit me with Devaluation after the fact and that letter gives her carte blanche to do that. The invitation was clearly only to reconnect with me in my newfound appreciative man way and see what we had. A pwBPD who says "I am open to talk truthfully" may just mean I don't mind devaluing the crap out of you in person and spitting all over that letter and thought. I'd like to avoid that or be in a place to handle it. Because really all I have from this relationship is that letter which I am very proud of; by which I mean the effort it took to get to that place despite my pain/hurt/confusion, to write it so nicely and to share it with someone I cared about even if they did hurt me. I don't want that destroyed too.

I think my part was this; years back I found the most amazing love I ever experienced, a (non BPD non overvaluing) woman who thought I was amazing and vice-versa and I didn't holdback at all and neither did she. At some point she had some horrid male friends who turned her against me and made her believe things (using 1/2 truths and evidence which are the most damaging kind) so she ended up despising me and always will. That also went from amazing one day (as in planning my proposal) to horror the next day out of the blue. That took YEARS as I loved her almost from the moment I met her.

So in a way that was a real life version of a BPD cycle and this sort of tapped into that; havent dated in years because I couldn't, BPD girl comes along things I am the greatest thing since swiss cheese, gets me, etc, then BAM the next day it is all gone and so is she.

I think that is what has resonated here, just made that connection.

This world is full of lessons and unfortunately most are when we least expect them and when we least want them ! I for one am still in the process of learning mine and I don’t know when this lesson will end to be honest .I hope you learnt want you needed to learn this time around and it makes you stronger and better prepared !

I've certainly learned some lessons about my own life, mistakes I made shutting down for no really good reason, trusting my instincts etc. I'm not sure if I'm prepared for the possible repercussions of this situation however, one reason I'm still in Conflicted here.

Well I gather 'bad news' is on the way

For one thing, no reply for now two weeks. So the 'I am open to talk truthfully. Perhaps this week? Can I reach out to see if you are available an hour or so before I think would work for me?' was not a girl replying to my unexpected letter and offer to reconnect as soon as she could find the time that week. It was 'whenever' and more to the point likely, as with when she pushed me to commit and then ran and as when she reached out to ask me to meet at 'our place' and backed off when I accepted, once again 'something' made her run away and clearly this is not happening. 2 weeks is not 'processing'. It is running or avoiding or not-even-thinking.

In any event I sporadically check her FB (I hardly remember what she looks like) and she hadn't updated it since October. Now all of a sudden a new profile picture with two giant flower stems. I think a Status Update: In a Relationship in in the works as it fit with the whole 'lots happening' and a person who updates very sporadically and not once when we were together and suddenly puts two intertwined flowers is, if not in a relationship, likely in love. I'm going to guess it is not due to my recent beautiful 'note'.

This was really my issue with sending as it just gave her the opportunity to repeat the pattern; reach out and disappear. I'd have really thought the gesture (meaning not just the things I said but how I said and presented them) deserved a follow-up vs leaving a person hanging who just said 'sure I'll be available on an hour's notice'. I didn't mean for the rest of my life.

I guess the 'thanks for the note' then is not 'BIFF' but what it sounds like. When you get a love letter from a person you don't reciprocate you say 'Thank you for the nice thought'. When you get a letter like tht from a guy you said you wanted a committed relationship/future with 10 weeks ago whose feelings you were unsure about you certainly don't say that. So the conclusion can only be that she never meant those things nor wanted the committment but wanted the words and the thoughts. 'Thanks for the note', asking me to be available at a moment's notice, and then never calling all simply suck and are in fact exactly reflective of the girl whose actions pushed me here in the first place. I somehow went from a guy in control to Charlie Brown in a matter of weeks.

So... .a quick comment.

The above quote is how YOU think about this and I fully support you making decisions about your life, based on your feelings about your pwBPD's actions (or lack of actions).

That being said... .

It is unlikely that the quote represents how your pwBPD thinks about this. 

If you assume that is true... .how does that (or does it) change things for you?

FF

Hi FF. Which quote are you referring to sorry? I dpn't really have a decision to make as I already launched the Grand Gesture.

Nope no idea what she thinks of this that is true. It is in keeping with the rest of the pattern; push hard for complete committment/Official Statement I give it I get Future Bomb, carpet bomb and run away as if *I* were overeaching... Reach out to see if I want to meet at our place, I agree, more or less pulls the plug on it as if I were over-reaching. Reply to flowers wanting to meet that week (note was clear on what I was proposing) I agree to the 'on an hour's notice', she disappears.

I have no idea clearly. One part says the pattern says she keeps reaching for me and either gets terrified or strong-armed away. The other parts says if this were actually important that now that she clearly knows I felt the way she was unsure of, she'd reach out. Which she did. And ran away.

Yup I have no idea. I just saw the first post on FB in 9 monhts of flowers and figured it meant something. Would be nice to think she spent two weeks thinking about what I said and came to a point of happiness but that is Hollywood isn't it?

So yup I know nothing. Except a girl who (supposedly) wanted me as her future in April and was unsure of my feelings now is sure of my feelings and is still running (or not caring).

If I assume that... .she is in love is true? It won't change anything, will just confirm that whole slaughter chute of commitment was utter BS since that is certainly one way to explain what happened and why no contact.

I'm really thinking I should get in Therapy. Never been but clearly it is not this girl, just the last 15 years of loss. I mean I see her pic it doesn't move the needle at all, I visited a page of my ex from 2002 and my heart still soars. So clearly this obsession and pain is not about this girl.

That said I think if she decided to NOT call me (Mother, Therapist, grandma says no inheritance, who knows) after all that given the depth of the gesture I'd deserve to not just sit around. That is crappy.

Her new FB profile picture makes me wonder if there's a lot about this woman that's hidden.

After college, I knew a woman who now I think about it, is likely a pwBPD. She was a total playa--she cultivated multiple romantic connections at the same time, telling each guy a similar story. And guys fell for her like crazy. It wasn't that she was great looking, she was pretty average, but somehow she wove a tale that ensnared them and they got hooked with the highs and lows of her drama. And she would shed them like clothes, when she was done with them.

I had a lot of contempt for the way she treated men, but in a weak moment, I introduced her to my ex-boyfriend as a bit of revenge. He certainly got dragged through the wringer with her. She cheated on him with his best friend after he proposed, but ultimately they got married and now have two adult children, and I believe they're still together.

I'm not saying this woman is like that, but there are a number of red flags you've listed: a history of abuse from "bad boyfriends", no serious relationships (or so she says), trying to make you feel jealous by having intimacy with another guy.

To me, it adds up to there's a lot of secrets that she's hiding.

I think it would be great for you to do therapy. You're a smart guy still dealing with grief from your previous relationship. Sometimes those of us who are very logical and rational have a hard time moving through trauma and loss. High intelligence can be a stumbling block in that we think we can solve any problem through thinking. Well, the heart feels differently.

Therapy certainly has helped me over the years. Find someone you feel comfortable with, who is a good fit and also who will challenge you. It may take a few tries, so keep at it until you find the right therapist.  |iiii

Hmm why does the new picture make you think things are hidden? You mean because she does not update often. Aside: I think one of her 'things you should know about me' is that she was institutionalized (guess) because there is like a 5-6 year gap (er after her first and only 'Status: Relationship;. Anyway she posts very infrequently over say 10 years (20 posts?) It is weird as hell in fact. Says In relationship in 2009, then not  a single pic of him/her. You may be right. Who knows?

I just saw the pic as something good is happening in her life and heck it may be processing my gesture but who knows?

And yes she is quite plain looking, doesn't dress up (sweats mostly) or wear make-up. I had a super-hot friend that openly treated men like crap and loved it.

I really just never got that vibe but the comment that is most telling and the one that spun me out of control until the very end (colored all of my interactions and my 'running' was she said she was going on a date ("It would be nice if you were even a little jealous" and then said "I don't want to, I know I'd cheat on him if i dated him".  Problem was that was about when I was falling or deciding to commit and it was the record scratch moment; it was like deciding to finally take the sled down the hill, jumping with joy down the hill and seeing lava on the bottom. It spoke to fidelity, promiscuity and total lack of caring that goes against every fibre of who I am. She said later she was speaking hypothetically and she is a one-woman man.

As per above thread, I thikn I'm getting into therapy as this is not about this girl, I'm pretty clear she is a mess and would be a mess to get back with.

On the other hand of course it would be nice to know/believe that the connection was real and her running is because of that not because she is a 'playah'

Well to summarize my initial posts it isn't loss of prior relationship; that was preceded by loss of career/money/city I loved, then long term father illness who passed, now sick mother, breaks with close family (as happens during extended illnesses), lost career, etc. so the theme is really... .loss. It is the main reason I was so (as per the letter) fearful as I could not really handle more. That is the reason that ':)ay' is so traumatic; finnnnaly agreed to let down my guars and give her myself fully, my future, and the next day it is all ripped away like a giant cosmic joke. Therein lies the pain, not her. Again I see her pic, nada.

In 9 YEARS not one picture of a man. Not one COMMENT from a man. Just one 'In a Relationship' back in 2009 followed by... .nothing. This is the one she referred to when she said 'A lottt of people are going to want to meet you I haven't had a real boyfriend in 10 years' Yeah there are a lot of dark secrets back there. As she'd keep saying 'There are things you need to know about me".

I'm clearer each day it is not her I pine for. Just the life that was presented in front of me again after 1 1/2 decades.

Interesting because I keep wondering how any woman let alone a plain shy one who spends e... g her birthday alone can respond to that gesture as if she gets flowers and a love-letter like that on a daily basis vs hardly or never. Maybe she IS like your friend and she is used to this pattern, 'oh it's the please-take-me-back-whiny card ho hum'. I'd think most women would be moved beyond words let alone from someone they were nuts about.

Therapy here I come :)

In fact: Does this site have any resources for finding BPD-'friendly' therapists?

  1st timer my therapist isn’t BPD specific and just my two cents neither should yours .The most important part of therapy is for you, not her.Once you identify and work out your issues  you will find that her having BPD had little to do with it ( at least that’s what I came to as a conclusion).Getting that confidence and self esteem back to high levels will undoubtedly attract the woman you want or for that matter the woman you may have had.

Another point and mistake I made and most men make kinda goes back to “nice guys come in last “ therory.Its not about being a nice guy it’s about being a good guy.Good guys are genuine,they do things for a woman because they can and want nothing in return EX: sex,wife,trophy,gf etc etc. The “nice guy” theory always has some alternative motive and I used to make these mistakes .Sending flowers after an argument or jewelry after a trip etc ,never once thought about why I was doing  these things (to entice a reaction of forgiveness or neediness are reward for having gone out together on a weekend I planned).Woman (with or without BPD) pickup on this like blood to a perhanna! Now I just do things completely random with no occasion for it.Ive stopped the constant texts and no more letters or emails either .When I got something to say I’ll call her,when I want to see her I’ll tell her just that .If I chose to get her something you can be sure it will be completely not tied into anything in return.When she offers to pay for something I simply go with it,without a second thought about it .I try and flow naturally now ,and I pay attention to how she’s feeling before acting.I don’t reward the over dramatic good moods she’s in anymore that reacting to the heavy drama moments ,just being a steady yeti (very tuff to do ,I distract myself through training and bettering myself).

In your own therapy you will see these things matter a lot and the BPD very little .Once you are centered and figured out your issues ,then learning about BPD and how to deal with what will come is doable .A lot of people (me included) thought learning everything about BPD makes them experts and they can deal(manipulate) their way through it ... .FALSE! The partner with BPD needs to fix themselves and realize themselves there is a problem , you becoming a better version of you will keep them attracted to you ,in hopes long enough to seek help to keep you.I couldn’t go back with my ex if I hadn’t fixed (still in progress)my own issues ... .just no way.Id be taking everything personally,get defensive,angry,try manipulating her with BPD knowledge,what a train wreck that would have been ! Good news is you realized you also need therapy this will flip that light on ,just don’t worry about them being BPD experts it may not even be required.

Good luck

Quite an excellent point Shawnlam, as I realize my issue now anyway is not "her" she was just sort of (especially our first/last night together with the Future Bomb) re-entry into... life which I'd sort of had to step away from and then hid myself from for most of this century. I know if I ever did get back with her I'd be done with her in 3 months. It was really having it all ripped away from me the moment I was (fool enough) to finally open myself up to all the things she asked for/offered. It isn't her. I'm amazed on her FB I feel nada.

So I think you are right it is not BPD it is me, and figuring out how to re-enter the world.

I don't consider myself a 'nice guy' in fact, I have a good (usually) sense of boundaries and caring. I don't curry favor or fawn or do things to get things. Even the flowers were (mainly) to reach out and rectify a mistake I'd made. I'd have been 'fine' with her not replying or even replying 'Thank you beautiful, maybe leave it as is?'. It is the continuation of the same BS that I opened myself up to that pisses me off. It was hard enough to come up with the courage to look at myself, to write that letter and to deliver it. Not 'expecting' anything is one thing, but a measure of caring and respect from a woman who said she wanted to spend her life with me essentially would have been nice, and calling all that a 'thoughtful note' and asking me to be on call within an hour of her finding time (implying it was important to her to do ASAP) and then just never getting back to me sucks. On the other hand it clarifies is not the BPD that she is not a cool person or partner and as everyone tells me I dodged a major bullet. I knew this when I met her and most of the time I was with her and just got caught up in the last 5 week maelstrom she created. I'll never know WHY she needed all that just to destroy it, my job now is to just get my head on to move forward and back to my life. Thanks for the support and good luck with all your new found strenght and centerdness and... .lady :)

Removed the messages from her. Blocked her phone. Doesn't matter if she is terrified, conflicted or just plain and utter *****. I'm sure at some point I'll check my Blocked Messages since I can on my phone but at least won't sit there and jump when she decides on day to contact me which will buy me time to detach.

Sorry to say but the only consensus now is I ran into a truly horrid woman. That whole slaughter-house rush to committing to her at the end, the future-bomb on the official night and the 'you're a nice guy but' the very next day was not terror of getting what she wanted it was, exactly as if felt that day, a set-up/revenge for my saying the precise words to her 18 months earlier. She didn't contact me not because she was scared or couldn't own 'running' she didn't because she did not care. She treated each of my very beautiful gestures to assure her of my feelings for her (as she'd expressed hurt that I did not have those) with a pat on the head and at least twice reached out on her own to test if I wanted to see her and then intentionally pulled away.

We can explain and BPD personality disorder we want here, I'd prefer to use old fashioned terminology; she is a complete and utter b****. She deserves the lifetime of pain and inability to connect and endless stream of unsatisfying sexual partners looking for the connection and love she'll never get.

I am done.

Sounds like a ruff night you had there 1st timer.I can see the sheer anger and insult you have towards what she did to you and the reactions .All I can say is if she does have BPD it explains a bit more than the standard b*** theory, if she doesn’t  have BPD I guess your end theory may be correct.All I can say is many people on this world have been through some bad things , some turn out this way with very little reason and some with too many reasons,and some come out just fine given abnormal circumstances.Anger is a part of healing,god knows I’ve been there a lot myself these past months.Its perfectly normal feeling this way but it will pass, you may pivot back to sadness or even feeling nothing like being in a trance , all normal steps in the process.

Just don’t forget the main factor in any circumstance in the future good or bad , that factor is yourself.Keeping centered and focused on yourself has this very odd and satisfying affect that allows you to not care so much about outcomes? It allows you this safe zone you can live  in where you feel confident that rejection or personal attacks like as an example (being cheated on or lied to)  goes from being ultra upsetting and devastating to a more ( I guess this person attacking me really lost out on something great. Me), type of feeling.

As I continue my journey to better myself it has become more and more  apparent how little control we have on our surroundings especially other people.I often tell myself “wow how foolish I have been spending so much of my life worrying about what I could not control anyways “.I wish they’d teach children about all this stuff in school , life would have been a lot easier knowing what I know now.Obviously by what I wrote above I don’t mean do nothing because you can’t control anything,far from it.I just mean control yourself and what you can do for you.Thats about the only garantie we have in live that’s ultimately in our control, “us” and what we chose for ourselves.

Upon my endless reading on BPD ,complex b disorders,motivational videos,books, radio shows ,alpha/beta males, neediness ,self esteem etc etc etc , There iare strikingly similarities in every lesson that seem to orbit this one factor , be the best version of you always .Thats what all these endless programs sell,that’s what all these articles speak of, and when you read the success stories on here ,same thing pops up.Can you imagine if the education system would have taught this? World would be a better place .

Thanks Shawnlam. Well yeah I'm done with trying to understand and/or own what happened. My not reciprocating/appreciating didn't cause her behavior. The worst it could have done is make her move on. Even if she'd moved on when we were doing our 'casual' thing it would have been understandable and I'd not have been upset/hurt (except for a little) even as late as late March. EVEN after the upsetting bar conversation (she slept with someone, was going on a date to make me jealous, knew she'd cheat on him) etc just saying hey look you didn't want a relationship (which she ignored so we were now IN one e.g. .keys, drawers, emergency rooms, etc) so I'm dating someone.

That would be the way the cookie crumbled and I'd have not opened my heart and future which I'd been very good at keeping boxed away (in large part from not trusting her). But to almost maniacally push me into a verbal and official relationship/future commitment over the course of 4 weeks that spun me out of control only to rip it away the next day and disappear is nothing that should ever have been excused, explained and certainly I should not have taken ownership of.

Yes I am HUGELY angry at myself for doing so, yet I think as my female friend said last night (talk about an AMAZING lady) it was an amazing and brave and gallant act and a gift I gave someone who might not have 'deserved' it but a gift I put out in the world non-the-less and it made me stronger too.

But damn man; you read the letter. Printed on card stock and spiral bound and twined to flowers and hand delivered. This girl never got anything like that in her life (content AND context) and she freaking SPIT on it. She didn't ignore it. She didn't return it. She didn't say 'Thanks for the beautiful thought I've moved on'. She called it a freaking NOTE as if I was some unwanted suitor she was being polite to, not the guy she wanted to introduce to her family as her first boyfriend since George Bush was President who she'd made climb over glass to prove he really wanted her. THAT guy who did THAT gesture deserved more than 'thoughtful note' and the part that really got my female friend pissed and concerned was the hole 'can I reach out an hour or so before I am think I'll be available'.  She said in addition to being hugely disrespectful it shows something very much wrong in her life (controlling bf?). It fits right in with 'can't make firm plans'. Whatever it is thought, why ever she reached out two weeks ago to see if I wanted to meet at our place and then pulled the carrot away when I said yes again, it is all looking like utter freaking cruelty not like utter fear.

Revenge for my never saying yes to invites to museuems or tea or family events? Do I deserve to have 'revenge' foist on me for not being in a place I could or wanted to do that AND being upfront about it? So now she has some power and is going to make me pay? I never did anything like this.

I don't care if she is terrified of me/us and I don't really even buy it; this latest is just utter disrespect and contempt from someone I didn't deserve it from. I treated her amazing well, was a fantastic friend to her (she knows this "you are probably the closest person to me outside my family" and she said even her mother would say 'he's been a great friend to you', and when we were intimate didn't 'use her' but made her pleasure my priority. I put aside all of my own concerns/objections when she needed a commitment from me and the way she needed it and I treated her like an absolute lady on our Official Night and gave her her dream night; picked her up by car, escorted her to it, opened the door and helped her in, escorted her to the table at an amazing restaurant, held her seat, ordered her food (she asked me to), sat through her freak out at 'committing', asked her again to be my 'one and only', took her home made love to her held her in my arms and stroked her hair while she slept and kissed her cheeks in the morning to wake her up. I did every single thing she wanted and needed to feel secure that we were in the very relationship she'd ASKED for, I jumped through every hoop, I said every right word.

I'll never know why she ran the next day as if I had the plague, I'll never know why she reached out to meet me 3 weeks ago the moment i reached out to her and then pulled it away, I'll never know why she called my gesture a 'thoughtful card' and thought it was ok to ask me to be ready to meet on a moments notice or what is going on in her (or anyone's life) that made that the only way to possibly meet, or why two weeks later she has not done me the courtesy of ... .anything. All I know is at the end of the day even IF it is driven by fear, which I absolutely do NOT believe anymore, it comes down to utter contempt and hate and disregard, none of which I earned. I'm no a tissue you get to throw in the street.

What is most galling about it is the woman I spoke with last night is everything I DO in fact like in women, unlike this little girl; unfortunately she has a bf but she is clearly crazy about me. And I sit talking to her thinking why in GOD'S NAME did I waste a minute of my life on a messed up little girl instead of a woman like the one in front of me. So all I can take that is good from this is this messed up person at least opened my heart and mind back up to having a real relationship with a real woman and I'll just try to jettison needing 'answers' to behavior from a person who is deeply disturbed (and knows it). There are no answers.

So erased her stupid reply so I don't keep reading looking for clues like it is hieroglyphics, blocked her number, deleted the pdf of the note I sent her, and I'm making some plan/committment to redirect my thoughts EVERY time I chew on why-this why-that. I've lost 20 lbs and instead of the flabby guy I had become by the time I met her I look like a boxer and have attention in the gym and streets and bars and am going to use that to go take an open heart and find an actual functioning real lady.

I think people, and particularly women don't know what an Alpha Male even is. This one's ex (whom I think she is back with now) she called an Alpha Male. He was her Dom. She was his Sub. He didn't allow her to SPEAK to other men and checked her emails, phones, etc. (part of where I think the vague 'nice note' and the 'cant make firm plans' and the 'can I reach out an hour before I think I'll be available' comes from).

Before she and I dated (when I'd rejected her) she showed up at 'our place' and she said she was not supposed to talk to me. I asked 'who says?' she said the guy she was dating didn't want her interacting with men outside. He is an Alpha. I laughed. I said Alpha men do not worry about their women and 'Beta' men. They have no FEAR their women will WANT the other men, they don't need to check phone calls and emails out of FEAR the women won't be faithful or obedient. He beats your ass red in bed, insists you call him Sir and Mister and controls your communications because he is a SCARED LITTLE MAN not a Confident One.

On our single day of being a couple she asked me if I would make her give up her platonic male friends and I said why would I do that? She said he did that and I said I am neither jealous of or afraid of other men. Not a girl who will ever get the distinction between strong and weak men I'm afraid.

You would be correct an alpha male would never check or spy on his woman it just screams insecurity.When a real alpha man finds out his woman is interacting with her ex’s behind his back(we always find out ,the truth always comes out) ,there is no drama ,no crisis, he simply walks away as easily as he walked in her life.Drama is pointless , when people aren’t worthy of your time you simply don’t provide them with said time anymore so simple once this is understood.Having the casual open minded nothing should be complicated perception on life (including relationships) ,things get a lot clearer fast.

If you are a man <~~ and I stress the word man, you will invest and give time to someone who deserves it.If trust is breeched to a large extent ,there is no need for huge arguments or justifications, concret evidence (not assumptions) usually lead to just movement in the right direction.It all comes down to , does this fit with me here yes/no? No , then walk away as solid and centered as you live every day , Yes, then live with how it’s going as solid and centered as you live every day.

This has become my new philosophy because it’s working for me ,with work,friends,finances,health, and presently relationships.The interesting part is other people are noticing it in my life more and more and so far the comments have been positive and also impressed.Ive even taken it as far as posture, walking , eye contact, hand positioning and voice tone.

Prior to training myself I used to slump, walk fast almost in a hurry ,look down a lot when speaking , hands crossed on my chest almost in the form of no please don’t bother me .

You would be surprised how good you feel walking slower ,more even footed, looking at your surroundings and noticing stuff you’d ignore usually like sun setting or art on buildings .When you look people in their eyes when speaking you can sense their emotions as they listen or watch them look away because they are insecure like I used to be.Hands at the hips or in your pockets with thumbs out feels more solid to me, chest pushed out,head up and shoulders back feels good (especially having gone back to weightlifting).

I just feel alive again being this way ,like I’m on the planet and not much is gonna bother me if I can help it.I rode into the city yesterday parked my motorcycle and just watched maybe 100 people walk by on their phones most of them oblivious  to their surroundings,walking fast like they had a time limit to their existence that day .What I thought was 15min was actually 1.5 hours that went by , it was crazy watching the zombie like society we are in.All the while  I received 2 texts from my gf and 3 from friends and I never thought to check my phone until I was about to hope back on the motorcycle and pick my music on the phone.The old me I’d of looked at my phone 20times hoping she texted me or a friend.Self validation makes life a whole lot more pleasant,and in being in such a good place allows that to rub off on others making you more attractive from what I fathom.

 It sounds like you are in a good spot Shamnlam. I don't know if I agree if you find your woman cheated you just calmly accept it and walk away, and don't know if being a 'man' means you accept everything calmly and stoically. I do think it means you don't continue to accept behavior from people just because you are afraid of not getting other things you need, youd have the confidence to know someone else would treat you right and you'd be worthy of them. But I don't think you need to accept it as a monk or a saint.

I agree walking with confidence feels good and gets you noticed. As I mentioned took the time since 'her' to get from flabby (not because of her, my mother handed me a picture of me at 25) and I have a boxers body now and I walk with confidence and look good and for the first time in years women are smiling at me on the streets again. And my own smile is naturally cool and confident.  So this girl hasn't crushed me into 'no one will want me' at all, she in fact is the one to have given me back my confidence initially. I just need to let go of the mystery. Because I realize it is HER mystery.

In your case it sounds like you were in a relationship with a far far healthier woman than I and you have  become a far better man because of it. I'm pretty sure she'll notice and respond.

I'm glad you said this, it was one thing I kept stressing to Skip. That I did now know if I wanted to court this woman, she'd have to first show me by her behavior that she deserved to be courted. She asked me to early on to court her, which I found interesting given she was pursuing me and I was largely not interested. And I tried to tell her the same thing; give me a reason to besides being just being a woman who wants me.

  In all fairness to my gf ,she took it upon herself to seek treatment and I’m in a place now mentally where I can give her the benefit of the doubt and trust her again.All that is in her hands really I refuse to worry about it anymore , if trust is breeched I will know and act accordingly, if not everything will flow naturally from now on. To my point about a woman cheating (or man for that matter) with or without BPD I’ve come to the realization it will happen regardless if you think about it all the way up to the event or not.If someone cheats on someone else there is nothing one can do to prevent it.So when I say I’d walk away having found out , I really would .My mentality would be ,” I guess she doesn’t want a stable man who loves her ,she’s rather a variety and live alone “, ok then time to find someone who will appreciate what I have to offer.The art of simply leaving isn’t a lack of backbone , taking a tantrum or vengeance would be infintile ,and wasting even more of MY time on someone who would be unworthy of anymore of it.Thats where I am now frankly,I prefer this to getting drunk or feeling sorry for myself like I used to .Its not so much ignoring the pain,the heart would feel the sting for sure ,it’s just not giving the other the satisfaction of an emotional reaction . How does that quote go? The best revenge is to show them your life is getting better after they’re gone? Learning to ignore things is one of the great paths to inner peace.

My female friend last night had great insight from reading the text too; she said the whole 'can I contact you to be available an hour from when I thing I can be free' was creepy not in terms of me but in terms of her and that she sounded like her time was not under her control. She didn't even know about the possible return to the abusive ex. But when I told her she said it sounded spot on. Busy people check their calendars, they don't find a time they can 'escape'.  

So as I give this more thought this seems to me like the likeliest scenario, I'll use it to move forward. Doesn't change her being a ****************** :| but gives me some 'reality' to hold on to moving forward so I can do so vs why this why that this makes no sense that does not since this scenario answers EVERYTHING

On our ':)ay' together as a couple, after the whole weeks and week-long 'I need to be asked, officially' and after the Big Dinner and our first night together and during the future bomb, she mentioned that the day of our dinner she saw him and was crushed and was going to cancel dinner (THE DINNER she pushed for so hard) until she got my nice email about it and it made her so happy.

I said I thought he was just a fling she said no I had real feelings for him (the insecure 'Alpha Male' who destroyed her self-worth and whom her friends said do not tell me if you get back together with him).

When she was kissing me at some point she said "So now YOU are the one who... " and would not finish. Later she said 'God puts people in our life for a reason'. It didn't sound good at the time, I think she had come to realize something like 'YOU are the one who made me want to be with HIM not the other way around'. As much as she'd tried to make us happen she realized, finally, she wanted him.

Suddenly next day she breaks it off after all that work to make it happen and the day of Future Planning? I can only surmise they were in contact that night and they reunited and he told her to get rid of me (she is not allowed to talk to other men let alone date them).

This explains
- never contacting me again.
#1 he is controlling and monitors her communications (one reason she got so careful about her text/email communications in general)
#2 she is 'in love' so there is no need to deal with her feelings about me.
#3 what can you really say after making someone ask you to commit and dumping them the next day that WOULD make any sense?

- when I send my first 'love letter' 3 months later her reply 'Thanks for the nice note. hope you are well'. I said at the time it was written like someone is reading her mail since it gives nothing away. And I assumed him since she had mentioned when they first 'dated' he monitors and controls her communications with men (little d***)

- Her immediate excitement when I texted her, her immediate inviting me to our place, then going radio silent and two days doing the 'approved' communication "lots happening. can't make firm plans'. Shut DOWN.

- Her calling my letter again a 'note', and telling me she'd need to contact me within an hour of knowing she'd be available. That isn't busy. Busy people make plans. That is a person looking for a window to escape and hoping I can be part of it.

- Her disappearing. Again.

- Her overall lack of anger or hate towards me and in fact happiness and instinct to reach out and come to me.

It explains the way she runs the moment her instinct is to see me, it always seems like there is an 'entity' forcing her not to right after. Each time her gut seems to be genuinely calling her to me and I said before it seemed like e.g. her Grandma maybe kept threatening her with inheritance or something else like that; some OTHER person shutting her down and dragging her away.

This fits the entire scenario. She pushed me to what she did in fact want, he came along and it soured the entire dinner (she was almost manic), the next day and I believe WHY she did the future-bomb; terrified of him looming trying to close the deal and talk me and her into it and finally "So now YOU are the one who... .never mind God puts people in our lives for a reason" realized she wasn't going for the good guy who treated her great, she simply had to go back to the abusive "Alpha Male".

I can't compete with someone who beats her ass red the right way, makes her call him Sir and Mister when she has older man/daddy issues and destroys her self-respect when she has none. I don't want to. I want healthy.

I feel FANTASTICALLY much better now. Yeah I might be telling myself a story, it seems to me to be highly plausible, but what it gives me is what I needed. An "answer" I can use to free myself from this case, since I think what I wanted all along was an answer not a girl.