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Title: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 01:14:16 PM There is a lot of low grade griping and blaming and inviting me to fight about stuff coming in via text. Claims she is out of money... or down to $150 and change because an Amazon item was erroneously charged to her card instead of mine... .at most... 2 to 300 bucks worth of stuff. However... .I can "see" a balance only to her account when/if I try to transfer money... and there $900 and change in there. I haven't responded... . She assures me they are having a good time "in spite of" me and my attempt to "ruin" things Do I dare text anything or just let it burn out? I would like to say something validating and show a boundary... .but my gut says don't text back at all. Who knows... ? FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Skip on July 02, 2018, 01:27:01 PM Why not just fix the error?
Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 01:35:02 PM Why not just fix the error? Ok... it seems I have a bit more time. I thought I had to run out the door. I asked my wife a few days ago when she pointed this out to me if she wanted me to audit the account to make sure everyone had paid for their own stuff. I haven't done so... .but it would overwhelmingly go in "my favor" and not her. I've removed my card from amazon and only put it up there when I purchase... it goes through... then I remove. My wife didn't respond... .so I didn't do anything. Today she responded. essentially she said (via text... .) My lack of putting money in their means I meant to do it to stop their trip and if I want to audit the amazon account I should file for divorce. Honestly... I've not even checked to verify the purchase in question really is on her card and not mine. I suppose my "boundary" is I won't make a correction unless we have a conversation... .a kind conversation. Gotta run out the door... I'll check back in a bit Thanks for speedy response. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Skip on July 02, 2018, 02:20:42 PM I suppose my "boundary" is I won't make a correction unless we have a conversation... .a kind conversation. That's not really a boundary, that's squabbling after a trigger. There error needs to be corrected (either she is owed or not owed). You feel her request has attitude, you want to respond to the attitude more than the issue at hand, because you don't like it. Is it possible there is no attitude and your are triggering (real question)? If this is attitude, is it a 3 or 5 or 10 (on a scale of 1-10)? If you don't respond, is that rewarding bad behavior (you want ti opick thesebattle carefully)? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: I_Am_The_Fire on July 02, 2018, 02:46:10 PM Skip has some great questions and I agree.
Also, is it really an error? Meaning, are you able to "trust but verify" the error? If so, that may help you decide what to do and how to handle it. Having said that, I do have a lot of trust issues with my ex. I caught him in several lies trying to get more money out of me. I don't know if you wife would do this or not. I'm putting this out there just in case. She may have an attitude about it which does not help the matter. If she seems to be trying to bait you into a fight, I would recommend not going there and if anything, just try to address the issue at hand. Stick to the facts and only the facts. Engaging in an argument generally won't help. It is tough to decide whether to respond or not and what to say if you do respond. Maybe just trust your gut on how to handle it. I hope this helps. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Sunfl0wer on July 02, 2018, 02:57:05 PM I suppose I do not understand why there is a “sense of urgency” when she is having a good time?
Why not say your glad she is having a good time... . Not sure what to make of money dear Remind me about it later if ya like... Have fun! ? Seems there is a balance of... . Being drawn IN to the communication Vs an observing posture and responding in reflective manner. Money issues will not go away no matter how u reply. They are inherint in every relationship? Yet... .practicing not being triggered into reflexive posturing vs reflective posturing... .maybe worth pondering. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 03:01:18 PM My "financial boundaries" are well known to her. If she exhibits disrespect... .my wallet stays closed. If there is a kind request, the "normal" thing that happens is a brief back and forth about the subject and then money is transferred over and the deal is done. Given the history of "agreements" with my wife, I only do agreements that are "right now". I suppose it has been a trigger in the past, I didn't feel particularly triggered by this. Before opening a can of worms I wanted to know how she wanted it handled. What I think I will find is that a purchase was made on her card (I'll take her at her word) but I think if you look around... even in the previous few weeks that the number of "oopsies" is in her favor (she owes me money and not me owes her money). Big picture: I had relaxed some and not removed my card from Amazon after each purchase. I don't really remember when, it just wasn't on my mind. Once I noticed it... .I removed it. So... .I was content to let things stay. But... if she wants to make sure everyone pays for her own stuff... we can do that, I wanted to make sure that's what she was asking. If she was asking me to pay for my errors and pay for her errors... .if she actually was bold enough to say that. Well... .I'd cross that bridge when I got there, but I can't imagine I would agree to that. Sorry I was in a rush earlier... .the texting seems to have stopped. I was trying to see if there was something nice or validating I could say... .but I didn't respond at all. I'll give it some more thought tonight. Hey Skip... I appreciate your quick response. Going forward... I would appreciate asking about my feelings rather than apparently mind reading... or perhaps challenging or "pushing me" to see if I really am triggered. Not sure. What was your intent there? I'm the son of multi-generational bankers, part of the way through an MBA course (with lovely accounting courses) (I could go on about financial stuff). Anyway... point being... .in my world math matters. Those are my values and apparently not my wifes. So... my refusal to move forward on financial matters without clarity and a conversation were not a squabble to me, but a thoughtful way of relating to my wife that protects my values. I get it that way sometimes rubs my wife the wrong way and I've thoughtfully considered that my values are more important (on these financial matters) than her ever changing feelings. I'll trust her to work through all that in whatever manner she chooses without me trying to control her. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 05:29:17 PM So... .this was what got me asking. I was trying to figure out if there was anything helpful I could say. I really didn't have much time... which was the purpose of me reaching out here. (please ignore the time stamps... .something weird is going on with some of my accounts... time zone wrong or something) Anyway... .since I couldn't figure out something helpful... .I figured I would keep my mouth shut. Subsequently I got a call from the Navy base she is going to... .wanting to coordinate the check in. I gave them her number and encouraged them to call her directly. Excerpt Black mulch on sale at Lowe's $2 a bag. We could use 10 - 15 more bags 10:30 PM Me: $1.80 per bag was the price for us with the military discount. I got some ordered... will pick it up later today 6:37 AM Me: wishing you safe travels... please take lots of pictures! 6:38 AM FFW: Hey can u put $100 in Wells Fargo so we can fill up the van 11:34 AM FFW: 1/4 Here are my thougts on Amazon... .We are married... .if you would like to go they the account and make sure we each haveeach paid for our own purchases then 12:41 PM FFW: 2/4 file for divorce. If charging several hundred dollars to my card days before I leave for vacation was a mistake them put the money back into my account.12:41 PM FFW: 3/4 You can see my checking account on pefcu... .After your 'boo boo' using my card I had $150 left. Not sure how you thought the kids and I would be able to12:41 PM FFW: 4/4 make it to the and Pensacola? 12:41 PM Me: butt dial... .sorry... .in the middle of something... .let me get back to you in a few minutes 12:44 PM FFW: 1/2 While you served in the Navy 20 years I was raising our children. Not earning a salary or retirement of my own because you said that the military retirem12:44 PM FFW: 2/2 ent was both of ours as we were both working whether or not we both got a paycheck. 12:44 PM FFW: 1/3 Yet now you have given me no access to it. You lost my retirement. I am working now to support myself. I am starting at 45 years old where you began at 2 12:48 PM FFW: 2/3 0. You will be getting retirement pay for 20 years before I have been working long enough to get retirement and then you will get it for only a few years 12:48 PM FFW: 3/3 before I die. 12:48 PM FFW: 1/2 You are the one who took everything and then commanded 'tou control the income you earned'. You should have said this when we first got married so I coul 12:50 PM FFW: 2/2 d have chosen a different path. Instead you promised me we were working together for us not just for you. 12:50 PM FFW: 1/4 I stopped at a gas station yesterday after I discovered you spent hundreds of dollars from my checking account and I cried in the bathroom for almost 20 12:55 PM FFW: 3/4 ot make the trip. What you didn't know is that on top of building a retirement for myself, I had all so been saving money and I had some in savings. You 12:55 PM FFW: 2/4 minutes. Not because my trip was ruined. It is not. But because you took money from my account leaving me with only $150. You did that knowing we could n 12:55 PM FFW: 4/4 did not stop our trip to Pensacola. 12:55 PM FFW: I cried in the gas station bathroom for you. What kind of person could do that to another... .his own wife and children. 12:56 PM FFW: I am praying for you FF. 12:57 PM FFW: We are having a wonderful time in spite of you. 12:57 PM FFW: And if you really did not purposely use my card... .You have not put the money back. 1:00 PM FFW: 1/2 You say I am at fault for the decline of our marriage. You are the head of our household... .If I did something that you did not like you should have lovi 1:03 PM FFW: 2/2 ngly came to me and let me know rather than make recordings to show others. 1:03 PM FFW: 2/2 vity towards me became yours. 1:08 PM FFW: 1/2 Tou have your opinion about our marriage... .looking back I can beour marriage began to decline shortly after your parents moved in with us. Their negati1:08 PM FFW: 1/2 I thought ignoring their rants about me was the best option. Had I know their negativity towards me would become yours I would have talked to you about 1:11 PM FFW: 2/2 it after the first time hearing them in the basement complaining about me. 1:11 PM FFW: I have made my ahare of miatakes for sure. I only pray you can see and admit that you have made just as many and just as big. 1:12 PM FFW: We are human... .We all make mistakes... .none are better or more deserving than another. 1:12 PM FFW: 1/2 I have no I'll will towards you... .You deserve your military retirement as you worked for it. I may get no more etary compensation for my hard work and d1:16 PM FFW: 2/2 edication but I am reading the benefit of great relationship ahipa with my children who love me. 1:16 PM FFW: I am reading the benefit of great relationships with my children who love me ... 1:17 PM FFW: Reaping 1:17 PM FFW: Wouldn't trade that for all the retirements in the world. 1:17 PM FFW: Enjoy your time with your mom over the fourth. 1:18 PM Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 05:38:43 PM So... .here is the text from a day or to previous that she was apparently responding to. I gave a couple lines before and after to give some context of when my wife chooses to communicate about money and some of the flavor of how I text about random things. Essentially... they had just left on trip and I was bringing them something and remembered an envelope in the van that I needed. Apparently a little while later she decided to reach out about money. Listen... .I know this is not a system I would recommend to anyone... .but it works the best of any system we have had since 2014, when my wife abrogated our financial agreement that had worked for years... .(and she will sometimes say she was wrong to do that, yet "i made her" or "she had no choice".) And it's much better thant the chaos of my wife having direct access to "my" money. She has a full time job of her own... .I'm vaguely aware of how she spends her money. Excerpt FFW: Yes... .although I do not see an envelope in the driver's door 10:51 AM Me: if you can rummage around and look... I would appreciate it... perhaps I don't remember correctly. I had taken the van through the wash 10:52 AM Me: it would be one of those envelopes from sams club for gift cards... .and some passes and maybe a gift card or two inside 10:52 AM FFW: Found it 10:52 AM Me: oh... good! 10:53 AM Me: Yeah... I'm on my way in just a few... in the rental van 10:53 AM FFW: 1/2 Please put $120 into my checking account the Amazon Prime membership was charged on my card. Please put a hundred 5144 in my account the steam cleaner wa 11:51 AM FFW: 2/2 s charged from Amazon to my card 11:51 AM FFW: That was $151. 44 for the steam cleaner 11:52 AM Me: Oh goodness, sorry that happened. Are you suggesting we separate our Amazon purchases from now on? Would you like me to audit the account and make sure we've each paid for our own purchases? Please let me know your thoughts? 11:54 AM FFW: Also I paid $40 at Norman and Miller Eye Care 11:56 AM FFW: Then $14. 82 for the warranty for the steamer 11:56 AM FFW: June 23rd Amazon $89. 32 and $98. 76 12:00 PM Me: congrats! We are the proud owners of 3 "non-motorized lake permits"! They just came in the mail 8:05 PM Me: (dogs name) was looking for you this morning ! 5:42 AM Me: Imagine her jumping by your side of the bed 5:42 AM Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Skip on July 02, 2018, 05:48:11 PM What was your intent there? My general suggestion is always to focus on resolving the matter at hand in whatever way is equitable and not get caught up with the attitude... .drama triangle 101 - move to the center... .unless this happens to be a hill to die on. I asked some questions to qualify that. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 05:59:37 PM unless this happens to be a hill to die on. It is. Well... money is. It's taken me around $40-50k to get through my noggin that she can't be trusted with money. To be fair she has paid some back. Perhaps as much as $500 and that was over a couple of different issues. The last time or two I asked for repayment for something... or some consideration... .it was painful... she didn't pay it back and I took the lesson to mean it's up to me to make sure that "my card" doesn't get in the way of "her spending". When I have made a mistake and left it there... .I don't ask. I'll check Amazon in a bit, this wasn't my intent to "teach her a lesson" but she has removed her card. So... since last fall when I severed the last access she had "to my money" (money that comes in that is only in my name)... .she has been testing, threatening (although much less than I figured she would)... .but life goes on. When she is "kind and reasonable" she has access (despite her claims to the contrary) by asking. Most of her requests have been reasonable. The few times she's gotten yippy or disrespectful... I've gone about my business and somehow she has figured things out. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 06:13:16 PM Is it possible there is no attitude and your are triggering (real question)? If this is attitude, is it a 3 or 5 or 10 (on a scale of 1-10)? If you don't respond, is that rewarding bad behavior (you want ti opick thesebattle carefully)? I suppose it's possible. All I have to go by is the texts... which I have provided. I'm interested in your opinion about any "attitude". Honestly... I don't see any in the request... .she said please. In my response to her I was careful not to accuse and asked for her thoughts on how to solve this (again... you guys read and decide for yourself.) While I'm not surprised it went in the direction it did, I also wouldn't have been surprised if there was a more reasonable response. (there is history of reasonably working out stuff like this for "right now" things). Yes... doing it via text. In person breaks down much quicker. So... was I triggered by this? It's possible, but highly unlikely. I did have a million other things on my mind and my big "emotional" thing on my mind was worrying about a mare that is "constantly in heat" and when I mentioned I was "running out the door"... it was to meet the vet over at the farm. I'm still concerned about the mare, we'll know more in a couple weeks. Gave a shot to see if we can break up the constant heat (several months of constant heat). Now... I was "concerned" enough about my wife and the texts to want to do something helpful (or not do anything at all)... .which was why I reached out here... .in the off chance someone had a helpful text suggestion. (if it was attitude... what was it) Again... I don't think it was... and if it was it was mild. For clarity... .no attitude in her original ask. She chose to not respond and I chose to not pester her. I was trusting that she would think about my response... in whatever way she decides is best. Lots of attitude today. I would give it a 6 (but my scale could be way off) Please expand more on last question I think I could be rewarding bad behavior by responding without clarity of a conversation. I can't imagine a way I'm rewarding bad behavior by not responding at all (but please let me know if you have more thoughts on this Did I answer all the questions? (sorry... didn't have time earlier) FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 02, 2018, 06:31:30 PM So my plan is that I'm not going to reach out to my wife during the vacation. Hopefully she will enjoy herself. I'm open to your guys thoughts on this, but nothing about the texts seems like she wants a conversations. It appears to me she wanted to get all that stuff out... . I'll try to check Amazon and do some more thinking on this later tonight. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Enabler on July 03, 2018, 10:10:29 AM but nothing about the texts seems like she wants a conversations. It appears to me she wanted to get all that stuff out... . I don't disagree with you there FF. The way I see there and yes I am extrapolating out some lines of thought from sketchy info BUT... .she feels like the naughty kid who's been on the naughty step for many many years now. My guess is internally she knows she makes 'mistakes' with spending but you have taken the moral high ground for an extended period. She feels like you've been punishing her... .you think you've been ring fencing your financial stability by retaining the keys to the family vault (your income and saving). You have a longer memory with mental scars of the 40-50k experience... .maybe she has minimised that and was 'entitled' to spend that money. By the sounds of things W has spent a long time formulating a 'reason' to justify/turn the 'mistake' into an entitlement. You are now punishing her/controlling her/abusing her for her necessary and rightful entitlement. So, when she finds an 'error' by you, well of course she's punishing you for it. I have found in the past that when I take the moral high ground and push for better standards (especially with money) my actions are not seen as being sensible, but punitive. It doesn't matter how long the better standard has to prove out that it is better e.g. "I will send you smaller amounts of money until you can show me that you don't go overdrawn, please get alerts set up on your account so you are aware of your balance". I have not restricted the number of times she can ask for money nor controlled her spending nor really question her spending, just want her to stop going overdrawn incurring bank charges (we tried larger transfers and that made things worse as there was no incentive for her to regularly check her balance). This was perceived as coercive control... . Unless you are prepared to stop 'penalising' her there is very little to discuss. If you were prepared to address her perception of being penalised you could discuss (after vacation) how to transfer more income and more responsibility together with more accountability. Appologising unreservedly, making yourself accountable is is also a good way to show her what accountability looks like... .and eat her disrespect/gloating. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 03, 2018, 10:50:10 AM I've tried the apology and more accountability route. When I said I severed ties last fall... .it was really the last thing I could think of to do. I wish I had done it sooner. All of my other actions had this "thought" that there was a reasonable person that would "appreciate" it with some sort of consistency. There was a while where she managed it all... .of course she claimed she could do better. She figured out it was hard... .said I tricked her into doing it and quit. Granted... .my real estate part of the finances makes it a bit different that a "normal" family budget. Thanks for the thoughtful response! FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Fian on July 03, 2018, 12:26:39 PM Here are my thoughts on the situation:
1. The goal of having separate finances is to prevent her from draining accounts, and spending large amounts of money (often on her family). By having separate accounts, you are protected from that. 2. Going on a trip does have a lot of extra expenses, and it is not surprising that a person with BPD wasn't able to budget effectively. IMO, a better plan would be to have had a discussion with her before the trip, and allocate additional money into her account for the trip. 3. The Bible says "If a person sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well." My counsel would not be too worried about whether the mistakes add up in her direction. Your goal was to protect the lion's share of your money from her misuse, which has been successful. If refunding her some money on some extra charges is what it takes for marital stability, I think that is a small price to pay. 4. I think you are focused on the way that she has asked. That is a harder issue, as I understand the fear of if she is rewarded for bad behavior, she will keep doing it. Is there a way that you could solve the financial issue, but let her know that the reason why you delayed in sending money was due to the way that she asked? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: juju2 on July 03, 2018, 01:35:34 PM Hi F.
kudos for pausing, and pausing again. in hindsight, not every molehill becomes mountain, did i really need to get in the middle of. Women like to talk it out (text). It doesnt mean you have to solve the problem. Sometimes just getting it out for me, releases the power behind the presenting issue. Usually the issue isnt the real issue. Its something else, down deep, that keeps feeding into this recurring "issue". No one knows what it is, something gets triggered, the deep seated issue bumps the other recurring issue, and also at the same time, lets take your peace and serenity, i want to still know i can mess w your serenity. I think its all from insecurity. From what i have read, of your story, somehow, despite all you are and do for her, she is insecure in her role. I could be wrong. It wouldnt be the first time. Its good she is getting everything out, she is sharing, being vulnerable. All good. Happy 4th, you have helped a lot of people, j Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 03, 2018, 02:52:20 PM Fian,
Since it was "her trip". I didn't discuss finances with her at all. She didn't ask or bring it up. Had she asked for money for "her" trip... .well... .I'm not sure. It depends on a lot of things. Clarity... .I have no problem with the way she asked. As you guys can see, I sent back some clarifying questions and was patiently waiting a response. (that part I'd do all over again) Once she unleashed the next day... yeah... I have a problem with that. Yes... I'm not going to reward bad behavior. Bad behavior=wallet closed. Good behavior=ears open on hubby (and likely wallet as well). Pretty simple. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 03, 2018, 03:35:54 PM FF, I think there are two issues here. Your wife is focusing on one, you are focusing on the other.
The reason you are controlling the money is that she is not responsible with it. If she was a responsible wife who earned less than you, and she was also responsible with money, you would have no issue jointly sharing the financial resources and responsibilities with her. I think this situation is probably typical for the members in your church. I am not of your religious denomination but I know families who are. They tend to be traditional, with the wife taking on the role of home and children ( even if she works some but many don't) and the husband being the breadwinner. However ideally both husband and wife are equals in terms of making financial decisions, budgeting. One spouse is not taking the kind of control you are doing. Ideally they should not have to. But you tried this and it was not good for your family. It didn't work, so you did the correct thing by taking control. I don't think spouses should micromanage finances to the point of controlling everything the other spends. If they can afford a new dress, or shoes, or starbucks coffee, they should not have to ask permission for that. But I do believe that major expenses should be discussed first or there is a loss of trust. There is a term for this- called financial infidelity. It is when one spouse does things with large amounts of money behind the other spouse's back. The damage to the relationship is not just financial but also emotional. But so is taking control of the money. So FF, she is going to feel like she feels and IMHO, many people would in her situation. FF- you have 8 kids and when you did have a career, someone needed to take care of them and if she did, then she didn't have time to devote to building a career and saving money. The disconnect is that she is having these feelings without looking at the real reason she is in this situation- she can not be trusted with money. You are between a rock and a hard place. On one hand you have a marriage where both of you are equals with the money and she abuses that. On the other hand, you control it like you do and face the kind of issues this causes to a marriage. IMHO I think it is best to focus on the real reason- "Wife, I understand how you feel, but my reasons are because I can not trust you with access to the money". She's taking about other issues that are the result of the control you took. But this is the choice you made. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 03, 2018, 03:55:48 PM Yep... .I agree. For years we had a set budget that just happened (and we periodically talked about it and made adjustments). Then... .for the rest of the time our "agreement" (back when she kept them) was that if it was less than $100... .you were cleared to get it without asking first. (assuming it was not covered in budget) However, we both knew it would be discussed later. If it was over $100... .ask first. Or make sure the deal can be completely undone. That "deal" lasted for years... .looking back I'm amazed. It was rare that either of us asked the other to undo something. By and large... we talked about "outside the budget stuff"... before hand. She abrogated that agreement for paranoid reasons. Other agreements since then have lasted up to a year before she abrogated. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 03, 2018, 04:12:52 PM Keep in mind, she is likely going to see this from victim perspective.
I think the $100 limit is a good one. If more, at least discuss it. Once trust is broken, it is very hard to re-establish that. https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/overcoming-financial-infidelity Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 03, 2018, 04:16:23 PM Keep in mind, she is likely going to see this from victim perspective. I think the $100 limit is a good one. If more, at least discuss it. Once trust is broken, it is very hard to re-establish that. https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/overcoming-financial-infidelity I assure you that she see's it from that perspective. Since my family and I "manipulated" her into thinking that I was about to divorce her... .so the correct thing is to empty all the accounts. Had I not "made her think that"... .it wouldn't have happened... .so... "she was tricked". From time to time she does see it clearly... .I used to get sucked in and do another agreement... .very unlikely I would ever do another one, unless it was a post-nuptial of some kind. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 04, 2018, 08:18:21 PM May I ask you, FF, how do you feel about having to control the money for both of you? Brave Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 04, 2018, 08:56:59 PM May I ask you, FF, how do you feel about having to control the money for both of you? Brave It's fine... .simpler because I don't get "ambushed" anymore. She controls money she earns from being a teacher (public school). I also have to run the money from the farm and real estate business... .so I'm talking to and giving stuff to CPAs. Really sucks to be running a business like that and have a bunch of working capital disappear in an emotional fit. I was shocked... .I just didn't think people would do that... . FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 04, 2018, 09:21:32 PM Really sucks to be running a business like that and have a bunch of working capital disappear in an emotional fit. I was shocked... .I just didn't think people would do that... . FF I get it... Must have been hard to take in. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 04, 2018, 09:38:06 PM For years we had a set budget that just happened (and we periodically talked about it and made adjustments)... . That "deal" lasted for years... .looking back I'm amazed. It was rare that either of us asked the other to undo something. By and large... we talked about "outside the budget stuff"... before hand. She abrogated that agreement for paranoid reasons. Other agreements since then have lasted up to a year before she abrogated. FF What would you think made for heavy feelings when the switching in attitude happen? Looks like something in your trust broke for both of you than but not before. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 04, 2018, 09:48:31 PM So... who knows exactly what processes drove my wife to abrogate her agreement. On the day she did it, she had announced to me that I would be showing up at a certain time to sign over a vehicle to her... or perhaps add her name to a vehicle. She believed (paranoia I guess) that they weren't "hers" as well. I had an appointment on the other side of the county (I was county manager) and cell phone reception was spotty (very rural). I let her know I already had appointments and would discuss vehicles with her later. She sent lots of threatening texts, threatening voicemails... .most of which I ddin't get until I got back into cell service. I did not sign vehicle over. At some point that day she cleaned out the account and put it in her own account. I discovered the move a few days later... .she wouldn't put it back. The rest is history. No idea to this day why cars being in her name suddenly mattered. I simply don't understand that part. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 04, 2018, 10:41:25 PM Eerry... Paranoia can be weird.
It can make people do weird things. I would not give excuses to people acting out on paranoid thoughts. I'm asking because sometimes inequalities in financial bases can make the person with a lower income feel trapped while the other person would not have same vulnerability. Since the issue seems to come back around I thought there might be insecurities at play that are not necessarily obvious. Yet, you have to protect yourself and draw the line somewhere. Especially if she did abrogate other agreements after that. That's tough. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 04:43:34 AM I think Bravesun makes a good point about discrepancies in earnings between spouses and insecurity.
I actually think it is rare to see both spouses earn the same amount- especially if one takes on the major share of house and kids while the other advances in career. Was your wife financially independent before marriage and children ? My H and I both worked full time with similar earnings until kids came along. He then earned more than I did . It was a tough transition. I think some couples handle this better than others. He also had the car in his name and I recall wanting it in both. ( I didn’t do what FF wife did ). It was more symbolic to me than material . I wanted to feel like we were equal players on a team. He didn’t understand that. I can understand how your wife may feel. ( minus the paranoia ) It’s what she does with the feelings that is the difficulty. I think many marital issues are common. It’s the addition of BPD that makes them more complicated to manage. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Enabler on July 05, 2018, 04:59:27 AM One of the 'rules' of marriage is to not take more than your fair share. In FF's case he cannot trust his W to take her fair share. In my experience with my W often the person who has a penchant for taking more than their fair share is very much up for pooling money, whereas the person who consistently attempts to take their fair share (or less) progressively feels run over. It's a bit like that couple who always suggest going dutch on group meals out, surrounded by drivers and pregnant women they proceed to get starter/main (always fillet steak)/desert/coffee/shots/champagne/cocktails... .then smile sweetly as they divide perfectly by the number of people at the table.
I suggested that we had 3 accounts, moving away from 2 separate accounts. The 3 account model would be one where we each had our own personal accounts but we had a joint family account for general household things. This model wasn't optimal for me since when I constrained my W on her personal spending, she just moved to increasing household and kids spending, but I was willing to offer it knowing I would have visibility on the joint account and I would be showing 'trust' and promoting grown up behaviours. I believed this was also a good way to make her responsible for her own personal spending such that she would have no one else to blame for her errors. The model would consist of both of us being left with the same disposable income in our own personal accounts to spend/save with our discretion. The idea was rejected as she felt offended that I didn't trust her to spend wisely out of pooled money... .so nothing changed. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 06:38:18 AM That's a great description.
I think marriage and friendships need a casual reciprocity. It may not be 50-50 all the time or ever in some cases but there is a sense of teamwork, fairness, and consideration for the other person. With someone with BPD, they can take most of the resources and still feel that the situation is unfair to hem. It's not just with money but with other things- household tasks, activities. I think this stems from victim mode. If someone is in victim mode, they are focusing on their own emotional pain and not aware of the other person. FF, I think this may have motivated your wife to do what she did ( not to excuse it). She felt she needed her name on the car as well. ( I do understand how she may have felt this) and you didn't do it when she asked. You had a perfectly good reason to not be able to do it at that time- but she didn't see things from your perspective. She felt abandoned and like a victim when she could not get a hold of you. She then took what she thought was "her share" you had the car, she took this money and put it in her name for security ( to her). You felt blindsided and betrayed. I'm not excusing the behavior. I think it isn't fair to take a large sum of money without consulting your spouse. But it could make sense to her. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 07:20:25 AM Especially if she did abrogate other agreements after that. There are no financial agreements since early 2014 (the van/money move) that she has not abrogated. Even something like "I will never again give money for over $50 to my family without asking you first... " (her proposal even... I accepted it without modification) It lasted for about a year until she perceived her Dad needed something... she cleaned an account out of about $300ish and had my oldest give it to him in cash. This one she did eventually give back because she had the money in her account. So... it wasn't about the money... .it was about taking it from me and making sure I knew it... and a child was involved. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 07:52:47 AM Was your wife financially independent before marriage and children ? Yes... .100%. Her FOO wasn't very good with money, but they did pay their bills first (as opposed to my wifes sister and brother). They were from poor but hardworking background. Unfortunately there are "dad issues" for my FIL and MIL. Neither of them grew up with anything close to "normal" father figure. Even worse... there were affairs, drinking, physical abuse. Affairs and drinking seemed to be "nipped" from one generation to my wife's parents... .my MIL was physically abusive to her children, in a "spanking gone overboard" way (closed fist hitting and such). My wife was the first person (even among her cousins) to graduate from college. Many started and flunked out. I meet my wife and she is struggling to be a vet (still in the bachelors degree part of it). She grew up rural, likes animals and saw vets were always in demand (although she didn't understand they often didn't get paid on time by farmers). Anyway... .organic chemistry was just about to kill her. She was complaining to me... saying she didn't think she would make it. I asked her what her family said and figured out they didn't support her at all. They didn't "drag her down either"... just left her alone. She liked "caring for things" (animals, children... etc etc) and somehow being an educator came up. She had done something around kids and really liked it. When I asked why she didn't switch to that as a major... .she just kinda stared at me. What would people think... etc etc? I encouraged her to do something she enjoyed and was good at. Somehow assured her that lots of people find organic chemistry "insurmountable". She switched to "early childhood education" (preschool through 3rd grade) and became a much happier and successful person. I remember once she thanked me for encouraging her to do what she loved and me thinking it was odd, because "that's just what people do for each other". Anyway... she put herself through school with loans and working. She worked in a nice pre-school in our early marriage and planned to return after 1st baby (baby could go there for free). Anyway... .our first guy was a NICU baby but recovered quickly. As it came time for her to go back to work I ran some numbers and figured out the "extra" she was bringing in from her work and the "cost" of her staying home to the budget. Pretty much if we drove and kept "paid off cars" (and I worked on them) and my wife was diligent about buying clothes at yard sales and second hand (vice full price at mall)... .the math worked out. So... she stayed home and was heavily involved in women's groups at churches we attended (moved around due to military). By and large she stuck to budget Anyway... .it appears that I've "nipped" the financial issues from passing down to another generation. My oldest three seem to have really good financial habits... . FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Enabler on July 05, 2018, 08:11:22 AM I mentioned this in another thread but Delayed Gratification is a learnt skill and plugs into Executive thinking model. You are showing and teaching your kids the benefits of delayed gratification by illustrating what they can get using restraint and choice... .which is tough in a world of millennial's who want immediate gratification.
Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 08:42:54 AM Yep... I'm currently a "city slicker" and don't live on a farm. We moved off farm several years ago. I hope in the next few years to find the right piece of ground to move back on the farm. Much easier to raise kids with values and do the kind of parenting where they pick their own consequences and rewards. My oldest (computer engineering masters student) is quite clear that he sees a life for himself of living in condominiums... .far from the world of chores. I often chuckle and tell him he is going to fall in love with a gal that wants horses, goats and all of that... .and that I will "enjoy watching that"... . Anyway... .he made quite a bit of money in a goat and horse business with his sister, which he has successfully recounted in various interviews for jobs and internships. Invariably he will say something about a "goat business" and the interviewer (usually another tech type) will stop the interview to clarify... "goats... like 4 legs and horns?" (yep... those... ) I do see a world of difference between how our kids operate and many of their buddies... .that was intentional. Very glad to have been able to teach that without BPD getting in there. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 08:58:34 AM I also grew up with financial insecurities. My father made enough money but BPD mother's out of control spending put him into debt. I was mostly on my own for college. I don't recall feeling supported by them for who I was- just raised to please my parents.
Being financially independent was the key to not being controlled by BPD mom. She controlled every penny, so as long as I didn't need money from my parents, I was not controlled by her. I had started a career when I married and worked until kids came along. The housework was always my job and kids added to that. When kids came along, I worked part time ( a mutual agreement with me and H) The income discrepancy changed the power structure in the marriage. Later, H and I decided it was best for me to be the primary caregiver at home. I felt vulnerable being in a financially dependent position, even if it was by mutual decision. I recall feeling uncomfortable about not having the car in both our names. My H was the one who committed "financial infidelity". He didn't realize at the time that the emotional toll of the breach of trust on the marriage was greater than any financial consequences. I am certainly grateful for his providing for us and that spending the time with my children was a privilege, but from my own FOO background, I also needed the emotional sense of being an equal team partner in the marriage. Putting the car in both our names would have been a symbol of that. How people deal with money is closely tied to emotions and FOO issues. I think the money grab was actually an emotional security grab for your wife, and I don't think she was thinking about the emotional consequences to you when she did it. I think it is different for my BPD mother. Her overspending is on lavish things, I think to bolster her low self esteem. It doesn't work for long, so she needs more of it. She has mentioned feeling vulnerable being dependent on my father, but she also seems to feel a sense of entitlement. Perhaps understanding this may help the two of you come to some resolution. It's difficult if she is not trustworthy with the money. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 09:38:45 AM My wife and I are "comfortable financially". I have a multi-generational background of this, but also a history of most of those assets being tied up in real estate and farms... .things that aren't "liquid"... yet produce income over time. So... .no shock that I continued this. My wife was interested in learning and she did great at it for a long time. In the early 2000s I got into "house flipping" as a side business with a couple Naval Aviator buddies. We made an a$$ton (naval aviator term) of cash, a lot of which we plowed back into the business. When real estate "rolled over" we have ended up being landlords for a long time, rather than selling at a loss. I also have quite a bit of real estate outside this business, in fact... .I only have 1 property left with those guys. My wife was right in the mix... she would bid on property at courthouse steps... .help out and yes... .she got to spend quite a bit of the money. In fact... .the house that I made the most money (as a percentage of initial investment) and potentially the most money in total (I'm selling the house with an owner held mortgage that is paid monthly... so I won't know for 25 more years) I bought sight unseen after my wife did a walk through and told me how good a deal it was. Sadly... .that was last house we bought together, since BPD was just showing up. I realized I couldn't do business with a "partner" that was that erratic. For instance, I'm at the house working on a toilet that the new owner had complained about (warranty work... part of the deal)... new owner is female. My wife showed up to "catch" me doing the nasty with the new owner and she "caught" me with my arm down the 4 inch plumbing pipe. Literally... laying on the floor with my arm down pipe. The new owner was very unsettled (as was I) by the entire experience. The biggest financial "hit" we took was the natural disaster (flood) that forced us off the farm. Even though I had flood insurance (it doesn't pay a lot of stuff) we lost a lot of money in that event (well into 6 figures)... .I've never had the heart to calculate it exactly. That's when my wife "went one way" mentally and I kinda "went the other way" and clung harder to facts and truth... .she clung to paranoia. I invalidated for a couple years and the rest is history. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 09:56:39 AM Somehow the lyrics for Shaggy "it wasn't me" came to mind.
That kind of paranoia is tough, and certainly compounds the issues. Keep in mind though that relationships with or without BPD can have issues with money. BPD just seems to compound it. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 05, 2018, 10:07:23 AM Please, forgive me, FF. I was writing this while you posted more of your background story. Wow!... All and every details very relevant. Both my spouse and I have also gone through a major disaster (Katrina) and the upending that it did cause into our lives. I would like to go back to this topic because I see it central in my own reflection. I find that the issue of trust between my spouse and I is the most difficult and painful experience, way above the real, life-changing material loss. We are both living comfortably, and man, we too, have changed a lot since the storm. Amazing to read your story FF!... :thought: May I please add this to Notwendy's comments? When kids came along, I worked part time ( a mutual agreement with me and H) The income discrepancy changed the power structure in the marriage. Later, H and I decided it was best for me to be the primary caregiver at home. I felt vulnerable being in a financially dependent position, even if it was by mutual decision. I recall feeling uncomfortable about not having the car in both our names. My H was the one who committed "financial infidelity". He didn't realize at the time that the emotional toll of the breach of trust on the marriage was greater than any financial consequences. I am certainly grateful for his providing for us and that spending the time with my children was a privilege, but from my own FOO background, I also needed the emotional sense of being an equal team partner in the marriage. Putting the car in both our names would have been a symbol of that. How people deal with money is closely tied to emotions and FOO issues. I think the money grab was actually an emotional security grab for your wife, and I don't think she was thinking about the emotional consequences to you when she did it. There is a lot in this whole thread that's touching very important sensitive points. Notwendy has it there with the power structure in the marriage being changed. I can relate to that myself. I chose to move into my spouse's country and as a result of that, didn't have any income. This made me feel very vulnerable to my spouses' directiveness in regards to how and when she would share her money with me. The need for me to be in this as team together became super acute (consider here the paranoid thinking about me wanting to take her money). Interestingly enough, we did have a car sharing issue. And at some point, (considering her B&W thinking and rigidity), she did cut me off from her money and went on a campaign to refuse to buy foods I wanted or needed (for recipes), did turn to buy only thrift store clothes and started to threaten divorce, and than going to see divorce lawyers. This was terrifying for me. I did take a certain large amount from our joint saving account than, because I was terrified I had to leave and I didn't have a penny for legal counsel, not to think about living expenses if I had to leave. I didn't clean the account, did it very cautiously, alerted some supportive friends of why I was doing it. I am wondering if threats of divorce had been exchanged at that time. Because this can skew judgements even in the most stable person. We all have to prepare in some ways. It's striking to me that your spouse was financially responsible, and that she did break financial trust there, and thereafter. And, if I may add, FF, she took the $300 from your joint money without consulting you, but she did return it. That doesn't excuse the financial betrayal. From what I can see here, it appears that if there had been a breaking point in your trust, there possibly was very few other serious financial acts of betrayal after that. Or that the $300 one was rather of a minor level. I say that because if I look at this from the perspective of the one who has been disempowered by financial decisions, it might be pretty good that from her part she has paid back the $300. About the non-obvious discrepancies in vulnerabilities. I know as the lower incomed person that even though I live on a just sufficient budget I may sometimes pay for something unplanned and than later fix it one way or another. In dealing with my spouse, though, there have been times when smallish temporary discrepancies ($100-$300 range) did have the temporary effect of blocking me in my cashflow. I don't means to say that your spouse should not have discussed it with you first. I think sometimes the person who doesn't have the tight budget doesn't see first hand when there is a need to make adjustments, and that the onus to bring it up comes back to the person who needs it the most. It can be tricky. Example. Sometimes my spouse and I are discussing something and I decide I will get it on my card. Than later the adjustment to my monthly budget doesn't get done, and I have to ask her again. This over time feels disempowering, and ultimately humiliating. Because even though we both did agreed that I would do it, if I end up not having enough left in my account for some end of the month bill or foods, or my own plans, that's not right that my spouse did not check it up and deposit the adjusted amount in my account. Another example is the thrift store clothes. I can see the value of that in your situation it makes total sense. Only that if I am living with someone who is comfortable and it turns out that my clothes are thrift store bought while hers are online (in my case) bought, it doesn't feel right over a long period of time . Just examples coming to mind... Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 10:31:24 AM ... All and every details very relevant. Both my spouse and I have also gone through a major disaster (Katrina) and the upending that it did cause into our lives. So... the car thing. Different states treat military spouses much differently. Federal law protects the person in the military. So... .I was able to keep vehicles registered and tagged in my home state (where I joined military from) during my entire period of service (over 20 years). So... it was simpler if they were in my name and if something needed to be done, car sold, traded or whatever I would send a specific military power of attorney form... .and things went smoothly. My wife expressed she was fine with this and under my state law the car was actually hers as well, even though it was in my name. (anyway... those are the facts) She expressed a desire to put her name on there and I agreed. However, I wasn't going to break an important work appointment to do so. Katrina was very "healing" for my wife and I. We traveled with many of our children and spent time on mission trips to help people recover. We had many faith based groups help us and it felt good to "give back". Frankly... .after seeing Katrina... .I would pick my flood. Katrina and the impact on peoples lives was "orders of magnitude" worse. My particular farm property "was not in a flood zone". It turns out this was an error in FEMA maps. So... my flood insurance cost me about $250 per year... and I didn't have to have it. I bought it because I lived within sight of a river... and it seemed wise. Once the flood came my property was not worth anything. Nobody would buy it. Yet it was valuable to us... it was our piece of ground. Well... .it was obvious there was no future there. The state came out with a program to "buy back" flood properties and turn them into greenspace. We participated and moved back to my home state. This was same time I retired and also got the county executive job in my home state. The sale to the state was a "short sale" take it or leave it thing. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 10:34:29 AM Not all of my wife's financial habits are bad. She can take a clothing dollar and stretch it... .in amazing ways. Organizing totes of hand me down clothes... . We have a total of 10 people in family... .I would guess our clothing budget is more for a family of 4. Which... .also leads into why I would want to be so careful about laundry... .so that clothes stay in good condition and can be passed down. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Enabler on July 05, 2018, 10:57:43 AM Sadly... .that was last house we bought together, since BPD was just showing up. FF, can I take you back to this comment. My W's experience of BPD pre-dates her meeting me. I know her childhood sweetheart, he lives round the corner. His words "yeah, F... .she used to cut all the time and when you tried to stop her she would slap and punch you." Also an assortment of letters suggesting similar experiences to me. However you're wife's issues seem to have just materialised mid way through your relationship. Have you pieced together / rationalised how this can happen? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 11:21:00 AM braveSun touched on some things I also experienced. The two people living on different incomes is one of them. Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls.
As you can imagine, two married people living at different income levels is triggering to me. In a family where there is an income discrepancy between the spouses, the one with the money holds potential power. Abusing this can damage the marriage. My parents' marriage was a mystery. Dad made the money, mom had the power. FF, I think you have little choice besides taking that power, but I don't know what to do about the issues that would cause. I guess it's a choice between two outcomes, one which damages the welfare of the whole family, one that damages the marriage? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 11:35:08 AM Have you pieced together / rationalised how this can happen? Yeah... that is something I've given a lot of thought to. It was always there, but at a very high functioning level. Sure, there were disagreements, even some that were particularly intense... .however we reconciled... solved things... .and they stayed solved. Plus... the coming and going of military life helped extend a honeymoon phase... and helped "push pull" stay in "pull" mode. Plus... .if we were starting to irritate each other, we each could think... ."Ok... just a couple more weeks and then (something different)". I'm blessed to have the family I have. There are NO DIVORCES... .for generations. The weirdest thing is a couple generations ago 1 guy and his wife got "kicked off the farm" for not pulling their weight. They moved to town... got jobs and stayed married for almost 50 years until he passed away (he was the cousin... she "married in" So... .I had no history or had ever heard of family weird stuff... bad FOO issues. The cousin move off thing was more of an honest disagreement, they just couldn't agree... .therefore he couldn't live there anymore... .vice an unreasonable thing. That patriarch at the time was my great grandfather, who by all accounts was a very mellow fellow... .so perhaps there is more here. Well... my wife acknowledged issues in her family, yet said them in a way of "these people are this way... so I choose to be "my way" (very different from her foo)... .and that seamed reasonable to me. And it was for about 15-16 years of marriage. For instance... .in our current will, my wife plainly states that "no way... no how... should any court ever give custody of my kids to my sister", yet recently I've driven to sisters house to pick up my kids after my wife left them in her care. My wife thinks her sisters has "reformed"... (reality... she has gotten worse) My psychologist says it's completely understandable that the flood "triggered" long dormant seeds... and I "watered" those seeds with invalidation (proving I didn't have separate families and a harem) for a couple years. That "ingrained" the behavior. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 11:45:34 AM The two people living on different incomes is one of them. Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls. I'm usually the one that pushes my wife to say it's OK to get a really nice outfit. Especially since she is back in the classroom, has meetings with parents and other things like that. Even then, she buys things on sale. I had to buy nice clothes for my executive position, but it felt a bit un-natural to me. Personally... .jeans, t-shirt... dirty with oil and stuff from working in the shop is where I'm most comfortable. I don't think anything of running out the store in work clothes (farm clothes back when that's where we lived). I do buy nice things, but focus on toughness and functionality. Funny story... and the place where I spend to excess: I've never met a trailer I didn't want to buy. They are so useful... .and I buy a lot of them. So... .I finally found a deal of a 7x14 dual axle dump trailer and was so pleased to get it. Much easier to move my skid steer (actual Bobcat... not a "lesser" brand) around. My wife just smiled... a bit of an eye roll. She knew I'd make it work on taxes and business deductions. Well... .shortly after that I was out of town with military. She was bitching and moaning about having to go get a bunch of bags of mulch for her flowers at the farmhouse. I suggested the dump trailer and a bulk load. She hooked it up... .drove and got a load full... and then was able to back it up to various parts of the house and put the mulch exactly where she wanted it. Well... I get back... and she kept going on about how useful the trailer was... .I was like "See... .! I told you!" :) FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 05, 2018, 12:17:58 PM Yeah... that is something I've given a lot of thought to. Same with us.It was always there, but at a very high functioning level. Sure, there were disagreements, even some that were particularly intense... .however we reconciled... solved things... .and they stayed solved. Plus... the coming and going of military life helped extend a honeymoon phase... and helped "push pull" stay in "pull" mode. Plus... .if we were starting to irritate each other, we each could think... ."Ok... just a couple more weeks and then (something different)". We've had some back and forth similar to this in our history as well. My psychologist says it's completely understandable that the flood "triggered" long dormant seeds... and I "watered" those seeds with invalidation (proving I didn't have separate families and a harem) for a couple years. That "ingrained" the behavior. My T last year said that possibly there was a vulnerability and when life brought a disruptive patch, the brave people who have worked hard with strong foundations could cope better and the brave people who have worked hard, but did have the vulnerability, could not reset themselves as well. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 05, 2018, 12:27:18 PM FF, although I am not diminishing the difficulty of living with a disordered person, it is a spectrum and your wife seems to have many relatively stable qualities.
A main issue seems to be her paranoia and weird religious views. My comparison point is my BPD mother. Emotionally unstable, raging, screaming all over the house and trashing the house- breaking dishes, throwing food out of the refrigerator all over, sexual inappropriate behavior in front of the kids, constant lying ( to the point we don't know if what she says is true or not), unable to hold any kind of job or do household tasks ( executive function not working), over the top spending sprees at high end stores, demanding luxury vacations and so on. There is more but I think you get the picture. You have a wife who somehow managed to have 8 kids and keep them cared for - even if it is chaotic, finish a degree, hold a job, doesn't over spend on herself. Yes she has done some crazy things- accuse you of cheating, been irresponsible with money, but it isn't frequent maxing the credit card at stores. I think trauma and stress can bring out behaviors in people, but so can other experiences manage them. If you can find some way to manage the money that is win- win for both of you. Some room for error on her part and some room for a sum of money being kept stable. I try not to sweat all the small stuff. A lot of the big stuff works in our family, maybe not in the way I would do it, but it works anyway, and I think for you, in a lot of ways, yours does too. Your wife messed up, but is there anyway she can redeem herself even if she is prone to occasional mess ups? I can't even imagine a divorce with 8 kids and with a functional wife, surely the courts would split the custody at least evenly. You'd still have mixed finances, shared kids, and two households instead of one. You are pretty much together no matter what . Is there any way to make this better? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 12:44:02 PM A main issue seems to be her paranoia and weird religious views. Is there any way to make this better? Well... the less time she has to ruminate... the better. Summer has been bad for her. No job to go to, she will enjoy herself... and her "enjoying herself" too much is bad. Then she "flips" the other way for a while. (pattern P and I identified) My "plan" is to leave the door open for her to make this better... .and gently encourage it here and there... .but I'm not going to "poke" or persuade or "push" her for better. I also won't bring up the text dysregulation... .at the same time I won't save her from it either. We've had a couple conversations since the dysregulation that were perfect. Today a few texts were "fine". By and large... .Notwendy... your analysis is spot on. Sure... we can divorce... .but that doesn't "get rid of her". Any "thoughtful analysis" shows that divorce makes "it" worse. I've been quite restrained in intervening in household stuff... religious teaching. The upside is everytime I have intervened... I've stopped it. For instance: My wife teaching my kids it's their job to figure out who the Christians and non-Christians are... .teaching them to be judgmental. Done... over... .not in my house. No. She apparently values appearances more than teaching the lesson... .so she "submitted". I don't remember my percentages... .perhaps flourdust can check me. 80% good. 10-15% weird... 5% off the charts freaky. The breakdown of my marriage. The "off the charts" is so weird that I just back away... don't engage... "poof" it's over. The "weird" can be confusing, because it's hard to know if engagement is helpful or hurtful. Hope that makes sense. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Cat Familiar on July 05, 2018, 01:12:12 PM A bit late to the conversation, but I thought I’d add my two cents to the income discrepancy part.
I was the one with assets when my H and I got together. I spent most of my assets adding onto my small house so that we could live together. We’ve got a beautiful place, mortgage free. Then he inherited a ton of money. Since then he’s spent some on property improvements and gives me an “allowance” since I’ve depleted my accounts and don’t have that interest income to live on. He spends wildly upon his own needs at times: does someone who is retired really need a dozen five-figure watches? My issue is that he usually forgets to give me my allowance, and I’m down to a few dollars by the end of the month. I do have a credit card that he pays for, but typically I spend it only at the hardware store and sometimes at the grocery, but never for my personal expenses. I absolutely hate asking him for my allowance. I feel like a child, or worse—like a failure. I’m so busy with chores, I don’t have time to work and even if I did, the things I’ve done in the past—freelance journalism and entrepreneurial ventures—either take too much time or deliver too little financially. And in this rural area, jobs are hard to come by and pay poorly. A large chunk of what he gives me goes to pay for help on the property. He’s a city boy and does virtually nothing other than go to the dump once a month and take care of the pool. He doesn’t even take out the garbage. So he seems to think he’s giving me a generous sum, while most of it goes for animal feed and expenses and I have very little for personal whims. The guilt trip to ask for more isn’t worth it and I manage OK, but income inequality can certainly trigger resentment in a marriage. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Cat Familiar on July 05, 2018, 01:15:46 PM Oh, and I’ve asked him to set up a direct deposit a few times, but he’s not done so.
Sorry for hijack, FF! Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 05, 2018, 01:27:52 PM Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls. I need to add that my spouse has offered to buy nice clothes and the good foods I want at times too. Sometimes I am pleased and want that, and sometimes it just feels right to be included, and I prefer to pass. To ant up my contribution in my own ways, so to speak. As you can imagine, two married people living at different income levels is triggering to me. It's not that clear cut. More like depending on moods fluctuations. I like what Notwendy brings here because the idea that it can come as a trigger seems to fit for me too. It's not all the time like that. It also adds confusion, naturally. Wondering as well, about the possibility to regroup these things, but gradually, over time... Like in small steps at a time. I've read on some other board about 'building credit' between spouses to help heal the marriage. That was about doing nice things for your spouse, even if you find yourself in a low place in that department and you didn't reach your goals in a one time shot (read discouragement). Personally I like the idea of 'building trust credit' for a small shared account. I would have it with no big essential nor future-building consequences attached. My mom used to grow a small savings on her very small salary, sometimes just for Christmas presents. Along the way, she would help us grown kids, if we did get in a pinch, and we felt that much responsible to return the money to the pot as soon as possible. Do you think such an idea could be of interest to your spouse as a matching partner, say for a short term gig? I think trauma and stress can bring out behaviors in people, but so can other experiences manage them. If you can find some way to manage the money that is win- win for both of you. Some room for error on her part and some room for a sum of money being kept stable. ... .it's hard to know if engagement is helpful or hurtful. Sounds to me its more like fishing... Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 03:44:40 PM Sounds to me its more like fishing... Except... .I enjoy fishing... even if nothing gets on the hook... . :) FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 05, 2018, 03:49:32 PM And a small "shared" account would bring up the "issue" of who shares contributions and who shares expenses. I'd be happy to discuss it and come up with a compromise... .however, she likely understands that would me she would have to START contributing to family finances from HER money. Here is the thing... she kinda does now, whenever she buys groceries or whatever she does with her money. But paying mortgage, light bill, insurance... etc etc. 100% from "my money". My gut says she would rather keep status quo... .rather than open up a discussion about "sharing" household expenses. The time or two she has realized the impact of wanting to share... ."well... .you are supposed to do all that anyway... ." (at which point... my wallet and my ears close) Just to give you a flavor of things. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 06, 2018, 12:54:39 AM The time or two she has realized the impact of wanting to share... ."well... .you are supposed to do all that anyway... ." (at which point... my wallet and my ears close) Would she mean that you are supposed to do that because you are the one with the most income? That's why I was thinking of something small that does not change the current structure of your finances at the moment, but adds flexibility. You brought the idea of her paying for a share of the household expenses with her money. Would that be a goal you have in mind? You also say that she already pays for some of it with hers. I’m going to try to guess it a bit to make my point. For you it may be meaningful that she contributes to the household expenses just like you do because it gives more perspective to both of you. She gets to keep an eye out and be responsible for the whole picture and you get to feel she is fully on board as a team member. For this to stimulate good will, there would need to be full transparency from both parties. Thing is, she's making less than you. If you would be interested in setting up a third account for the household, could you consider proportional funding according to both of your different incomes? But I was not even going there. I was thinking more of some kind of 'cash flow' type of house pot, so it does not have too much consequences on the stability of the household finances nor the future. More like an in-house money pot (the glass jar on the top of the fridge). Has to be small enough that it can be repaid back by next pay cheque. And nobody needs to ask for money. Everybody knows at all times how much there is left in the pot. It’s possible to use this as a way to encourage all people's initiative and good will rather than prescribe it. To start off the person with most discretionary income funds it. A smallish amount. (Example $300). Than either her or you can borrow from it while in a pinch, but must reimburse the money asap. What that does is add some ease with everyday spending, but it also acts as an accountability buffer for the strained times when, say, this month it's all borrowed, so there we need to go more thrifty. In other words, it allows for both parties to take charge of their own oopsies. Now this is best case scenario. There will be oppsies and it is suspected that FF will have to help to pay. But, if there is FF showing that he's not interfering with the oppsies, than it takes the heat off a little. My mother used that for a Christmas fund. So there was an end goal attached to it. Which naturally comes second when there are smallish emergencies along the way, but it’s also positively compelling to re-establish the balance regularly. My idea was to create ways to rebuild a bit of ‘trust credit’ within the couple, and at same time stay within a small range that empowers any level of earners. You might have a common small dream you might share, and would go for a mutual (reciprocal) saving gig for it. Has to be a mutual interest. Even if she fails it and you end up paying for all of it 80% of the time FF, in the end, would it be worst than being asked for the money and have to go through the whole shenanigan on and on and on? Would she be interested in that if you start by acknowledging that she pays for some household expenses as it is anyway, so you thought of adding something that can help with the everyday 'situations'? Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 06, 2018, 05:50:52 AM I was going to ask the same thing. I agree that both spouses should contribute to family expenses but what is a fair arrangement when one spouse earns less than the other?
When we were both making the same amount ( and even for a brief time I made more), we both contributed equally. As my salary decreased compared to my H's it has gone to to savings ( college funds) , retirement fund, and extras such as summer camps for the kids. These aren't daily household expenses but they still are contributions. Where does household labor factor into the equation? One idea- although your military benefits cover some of your kids' college expenses, you know there is always the extras- dorm stuff, school supplies, computers, and most scholarships don't cover everything. Would your wife consider contributing to a long term savings ear marked for college such as a 529 or 5 year CD. Something she can't get into and spend impulsively? It could be a small amount in case she did, but it could be a "testing ground" for a joint account. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Enabler on July 06, 2018, 06:30:22 AM I would feel comfortable with both people having the same disposable income... .some feel very happy with a different setup.
Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 06, 2018, 07:06:54 AM "I'm supposed to" is a religious view. A christian man takes care of his family and provides everything. The wife stays home and raises the kids. Since I don't provide... I'm not a christian man and I'm "forcing" her to work. Note: When we were on good terms and we were considering a move, the "deal" was that she applied for job... and if she got it... we would move. Since my vocational status would be up in the air (disability and some other issues). She got the job, we moved... .now she wants to change the story. I don't debate the story... . Also... .only once or twice have I asked questions such as "If I don't provide... how did the mortgage get paid?" (yeah... that was fun to watch the reasoning) So... .in truth, I don't earn w-2 income at the moment. Due to real estate things, the last couple tax returns have been close to or at our all time high (after CPAs work them as hard as they can). I'm hoping for a similar result this year. Big picture: I'm reducing (selling) much of my real estate exposure because prices are good and I need to simplify my life. So... money is an issue... but it's not "THE" issue. I'm certainly open to working on things and trying different stuff... but I won't "push" any of it. She is discovering the limits and benefits of her choices through her own actions... .I'm reluctant to interfere with that. My understanding of the "root" of all this is she wants to be home and wants me in a job. I'm where she is "supposed to be"... .and percentages, accounts, college funds and oopsies aren't going to change that... . Perhaps I'm wrong... .and I'm not saying I won't try if she brings things up... .but trying to keep in context. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 06, 2018, 07:40:55 AM Hey guys... wonderful thread... keep up the ideas about splitting money and all that. I was responding to jrharvey's thread about physical stuff (he got a door slammed on him) and was reminded of the last physical event between my wife and I. Where she hit me with a debit card. jrharvey's thread https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326766.msg12981192#msg12981192 the result of my wife hitting me with the debit card https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315549.0 Anyway... .this likely helps "inform" you guys about why I've taken the "stance" that I have about financial things and "solving reasonable" problems. My wife was wanting a way to know for sure that money in an account was "spendable" by her and what on. The bank we use allows some free text with a transfer. So... I could transfer money in and say "money for steel workbench sams club". If my wife saw the transfer and the money was there... she was free to spend the money at sams club on a steel workbench. That note was the "proof" that we had discussed it and both agreed. Her basic claim was that I was "forgetting" our conversations and she had "no way" to know when she could spend and not get into trouble. So... .we did problem solving... came up with a solution (I believe she then realized she would loose a dysfunctional "tool"... .which made her mad... .and she threw and hit me with a debit card. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 06, 2018, 07:52:11 AM I think you have touched at the heart of this and the emotion behind your control of the money.
I know families that are in your denomination of Christianity. They tend to be large families, the wife at home, often home schooled and the husband is the provider. I don't know if this is a requirement of your denomination but it seems to be also common and I can imagine that your wife had hopes to be in this situation and was at some point. Aside from the fact that this arrangement is not the only one among couples who are members of a variety of denominations, this is the one that matters to your wife, and she is disappointed. IMHO, I think your wife's definition of who is a Christian is a narrow one, and she may even be wrong about that, but it doesn't factor into your situation because she is your wife and she feels what she feels and wants what she wants. Your wife is going to feel/believe what she feels and if feelings are facts to her, looking at facts, or Biblical definitions, or any logic on your part is not going to change her feelings. She wants what she believes is a traditional Christian marriage arrangement and she doesn't have it. How will the two of you work through this? She has to be able to feel her feelings, express them and feel validated. I know you probably feel you have done this as much as you can stand, but you are a logical guy with a feeling wife. It seems your wife likes her job. Would she choose to do it even if you were the sole provider? She may be in victim perspective when she says you are forcing her. I wonder if some of what she is saying is just her venting- and not something you need to change. You may just need to hear the venting and not feel triggered. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 06, 2018, 11:20:35 AM A few things...
I would feel comfortable with both people having the same disposable income. I'm like Enabler there. I realize it can be a slippery slope, and I also know we're talking about your spouse being on the high end of the spectrum. Fairness to acknowledge there is a layer in the situation that's well, usual financial stuff between spouses. With that layer in mind we go for the deeper feelings of both persons and we kind of get warmed up for a middle way type of arrangement. But she is also on the spectrum. My take is, she may have an understanding of the situational unfairness, and she might respond to this with the expected emotional reaction of people with her condition. Both. In this case, doing nothing and keep full control is not ethically advisable. Thus the appeal to the religious precepts. Yes, she may be self interested. Yes, she may take advantage of an opening for good will. FF has that on the corner of his eyes I'm sure. I certainly would if it'd be me. From what I see, the issue is still pending and the discourse on the texts seems to have quite a specificity. So we know that. She also addressed your letter in some of her text, so that means she heard you. You did acknowledged that you have different views. Quite frankly you're both coming in from different backgrounds, AND you've had some good years in the past, even though you did have these different perspectives all along. Would there be some interest in experimenting about including both FF's and FFW's feelings in something that is designed to change the direction of focus, while at same time allow for both FFW and FF to experiment on self regulation for those deeper emotions? Would there be a temporary possibility to experiment in some sort of sandbox in order to figure out if indeed you two are disagreeing, or you are both saying the same thing in different ways? It appears to me that you both are being reasonable with the money right now. You are in a long term relationship. How do you allow space between both of you to grow out of your own ways, so to speak? She might not be able to discuss with you on those terms, considering her difficulty with emotional regulation. But she might get along with something she feels makes sense. This... My wife was wanting a way to know for sure that money in an account was "spendable" by her and what on. The bank we use allows some free text with a transfer. So... I could transfer money in and say "money for steel workbench sams club". If my wife saw the transfer and the money was there... she was free to spend the money at sams club on a steel workbench. That note was the "proof" that we had discussed it and both agreed. Her basic claim was that I was "forgetting" our conversations and she had "no way" to know when she could spend and not get into trouble. So... .we did problem solving... came up with a solution (I believe she then realized she would loose a dysfunctional "tool"... .which made her mad... .and she threw and hit me with a debit card. FF I have mixed feelings when I read that FF. I did have a similar experience with my spouse, where she was giving me a credit card and did not reveal enough information about her own finances for me to know how much spending was OK and how much was too much. I could not make any decisions there on my own solid grounds because I didn't know the grounds. Does that make any sense? It felt disempowering for me, and humiliating as well, because I'm usually pretty good with managing my own finances when I'm alone. I do have to know the whole budget, though. Figuring out the consequences is not really an issue for me. The experience was however quite scary, when I realized that my spouse had control over me with the whole financial situation, and was not inclined to share some of the information. Yet she only said "It's my money" when questioned (bad bad me!... ), or "I don't have enough for your needs" when I tried to bring in some perspective of inequalities. All in all, for me, it was a sheer lack of transparency from her part. This lack was because of her own issues and she is being triggered, no doubts. This is not because I am not trust-worthy. But she feels that way!... . That throws me out in the boonies. (bad bad me again!... ) Ok. So. With your situation, I tend to want to see another meaning with what your spouse is saying. AND, ... I also know that the debit card hit did not hit your wallet but your heart. FF, I owe you a BIG favor. That was just a no-filter throw. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 06, 2018, 12:04:58 PM And... .to clarify the story. My wife knew that I hadn't approved buying the workbench. We had both discussed it verbally... and were in agreement that where there was "extra" money (after bills paid)... and we both agreed... .we would consider the steel workbench again. (but I assured her I thought it was good idea). I'm a detail guy... .and so as I do financial things... and email to her served as "notes" for me as well. These receivables came in... these payments went out... .I'm expecting a low point around here in cash and a high point around here. My wife expressed concern that there might not be enough money for a tank of gas. I told her I was confident she could get a tank of gas and there would be plenty for that, even if expected receivables didn't show. In other words... fill up the car and don't worry. I let her know a couple mortgages were paid and I was holding on paying one or two (until receivables actually showed) because I didn't want to draw the account down that much. The mortgage I was delaying paying was mid $800 range. I knew $$ would be there in a few days and well before any penalty. My wife knew all these figures. So... she took my assurance that she could get a tank of gas... got a tank of gas, withdrew $300 in cash, spent $700ish on steel workbench (rolling thing for garage) and a few hundred other bucks on random Sams club items. Yet... I tricked her... because I "said there was plenty" (as she conveniently left of "for a tank of gas" This was all done via email... .was all black and white... so no "mishearing"... no bad connections. She looked at the emails and said I "designed" them that way to "make her look bad"... as if I knew she would abrogate... .so iron clad emails of what I had actually said... that contradicted her version... .was "proof" of me tricking her (I hope I got that right) I'm all for working on things... and her feelings... but at the heart of this entire discussion. How do you make financial agreements with someone... .that doesn't keep financial agreements. We can validate all day long... .we can listen... .understand... .but if she has access (without going through me)... .she will eventually buckle and blow it. That just doesn't work for me. (not trying to shut down discussion... .but give clarity on my "bottom line". If there is an idea that doesn't "honor my bottom line"... well... .not much use in discussing it. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: braveSun on July 06, 2018, 02:22:57 PM FF I'm sorry that this happened to you. I see that an experience like this can make it impossible to further want to make agreements that could affect your bottom line. I don't think I would want to take that risk too. Pooling money in a way that can have consequences on one's financial stability is already a factor of vulnerability by default. It must be hard for you to see that you could share this with her in the past and now you can't. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: formflier on July 06, 2018, 02:50:54 PM It is hard to wrap my head around this. Notwendy did a good job talking about costs... both financial and to the relationship. I suppose I've decided that the further cost of letting her do these kinds of things is "too expensive" for the relationship. So... "I've paid" to take away this "tool" from her. I suppose I'll continue to pay for this, yet I also "reap the benefit" of her not doing this anymore. A balancing act I suppose. FF Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 07, 2018, 07:28:48 AM Oh FF that sounds awful. It also sounds like she was paranoid that you were trying to trick her and that you really had the money and so she spent it.
It's hard when someone's thinking is so far off base. I support you for putting the breaks on the money. That's about all you can do when the thinking is that irrational. With my BPD mother, she has high end tastes and when she wants something she "has" to have it. What makes her want something could be a comment from a total stranger " this looks good" then she decides she has to have "it". She wants the best of things but often the "best" is because someone said it was. My mother is not technically savvy but she likes to use e mail and shop online. She had asked someone "what is the best computer" and someone told her "this computer is the best". Yes, if you play video games. I was with my father when she sent us to the store to get the computer. Mom is not going to be the gaming champion as far as I know and needs a basic computer. I noticed another one on sale for a much better price with equal capacity to do what she wanted to do and suggested it. My father became very agitated and snapped " Just get her the one she wants". Well he knew the consequences of bringing home a different one. I think this kind of spending stems from victim mode. They feel bad, and so they buy to "rescue" themselves or have someone else buy it and rescue them. With your wife, I think she may have believed you were tricking her to keep her from spending money that was really there. To do nothing is reinforcing disordered thinking. Somehow my mother believed she needed a computer that had more than she needed, and to not buy it would invalidate her, but it also reinforced disordered thinking. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: Notwendy on July 07, 2018, 08:38:13 AM I can relate to Cat and braveSun's situation. H and I met as students and after that had roughly equal modest salaries. It was always our agreement that I would work a part time job when kids came along if we could afford it. Later we decided I would stay home with them until they were older and I have gone back to working outside the home.
We had a shared joint account that we put both salaries into, and another joint account that I used for household expenses. When I worked part time, I paid for food, diapers, household items out of my salary. He paid mortgage, utilities and other expenses out of the larger joint account that was mainly his paycheck. Then one day, I noticed a lot of money missing out of the joint account. I thought it was a mistake - a banking error- but when I checked, he had taken it to buy expensive items I had no idea about. I was shocked. He didn't think he did anything wrong. He maintained that - well since he made the money he can do what he wants with it and if I made that money, I could too. This shattered the illusion of the agreements I thought we had. I also later put money from my earnings in a savings account in my name. A counselor recommended that to me too. It wasn't my "spending money". It was security - something I felt I needed to keep safe from his spending. A counselor also recommended the 50-50 discretionary fund and we tried it but it didn't work. Mentally, he sees the money given to me for household expenses and kids as "giving all of it to me". A discretionary fund for me on top of that feels very unfair to him and he resented it. I think the household allowance is generous though for what the kids and I would need. Thankfully, he is all in with college funds and has cut back on the spending for that. That is different from what my mother did. I had feared that and it didn't happen. Title: Re: FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not Post by: flourdust on July 07, 2018, 08:50:37 AM *mod*
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