BPDFamily.com

I felt compelled to start a thread for those of us who are married to a Borderline spouse and have children. Our struggles are unique because our decisions impact more than just ourselves.

About me:

I grew up in a single parent household with a father who had mental illnesses that remained untreated and undiagnosed until he was elderly. Because of my relationship with him, I was bred to be a people pleasing person who would try to anticipate the moods of significant people in my life and attempt to circumvent any type of negative behavior. If I failed, I blamed myself. The thought processes I had as a child unfortunately carried into my adult relationships. I have extreme codependent and passively enabling behaviors. I often find myself crushed by the weight of attempting to hold boundaries in place. Many people have described me as a strong woman but that is not how I see myself at all. I look intimidating but I see myself as cowardly and passive, easily manipulated, and controlled, often feeling still like a scared little girl.

I got married at 19 to the man I had been dating since I was 15. He had a history of alcohol and drug abuse. I grew up with this so abnormal has always seemed normal to me. I loved him deeply. Eventually, alcoholism took control of him and things spiraled more and more out of control. He died drinking and driving when I was 6 1/2 months pregnant with our first child.

I remarried just after my son's first birthday to a man I'd had a huge crush on when I was 14, dated for 3 months and happed to be the first cousin of my now late husband. (Can you keep up?) I had always idolized him as being the "perfect" man because when I was around him, he was. After my first husband died, he was there for me from the moment it happened. Helped me while I was pregnant, even took me to the hospital when I went into labor, stood outside of the delivery room, her my son's first cry and was one of the first people to hold him. It was only natural that I would develop strong feelings for this man and fall in love with him. When we acknowledged feelings for each other, he told me about different things he had been diagnosed with and a couple of times that he had been inpatient. I was in love and clueless. I was unprepared for what those diagnosis' actually looked like on anything other than a cliched television show. Things started to go immediately downhill once we got married. Our first anniversary, I was sad because my fairytale wasn't going how I thought it should and he was ecstatic because we had been together a whole year and he honestly hadn't thought we would. I can look back now and see that as a classic BPD thought process. Fast forward to 2012 when I gave birth to our daughter. During the time we were trying to get pregnant and especially during the pregnancy, he was amazing and I felt hopeful again. Things really started to decline in late 2012 and stayed a mess for the next two years. At the time he was working the same job he'd had since he was 18 and drinking quite a bit at nights when he would get home from work. He always worked nights.

In December of 2014, he was saved and became a Christian. I have been a Christian since 2007 and it's honestly those beliefs that have gotten me through the hardest of times. I say this not to invite comments or debate on "religion" so please refrain. But because the changes in him following that were significant and also pertain to the evolution of the place we are currently at. He stopped drinking cold turkey the night he was saved. His whole demeanor changed and suddenly here was this amazing man again. There were a couple of warning signs there that I didn't understand until I looked back in retrospect. Three months later he had a psychotic break and has been disabled since. It was obvious that the OCD had assigned itself to his relationship with God, obsessing over getting a belief "right," being very works based and "religious." There is a term for it called Scrupulosity if anyone is interested in further looking it up. Because I was unaware of BPD at the moment, I could not see how that was effecting him and taking it's toll. Imagine, for a moment, whether you believe in God or not, what it must be like for a person who very sincerely does but who has also lived a life being terrified of being abandoned and rejected by those he loves most. What happens to a person's mental state when they believe it is possible for them to be abandoned and rejected by Whom they see as the ultimate source of love? This fear still plagues him on a daily basis. Since 2015 his mental health has spiraled downward. I had hoped getting a diagnosis of BPD and then looking at treatment options specifically for that would be a tremendous help but such is not that case. Things have gotten worse. When I get upset by BPD behaviors, I am accused of punishing him for being 'sick.' I think in large part it has been an excuse or reason for him to further let go of his emotions and act out. Like the diagnosis sort of gives him a reason or permission to really act out but these are just my thoughts.

Our son knows he has another biological father but in every way that matters my husband IS his Daddy. That is one amazing thing about my husband. That boy IS his son and he has never felt otherwise. On a positive note about a person with BPD, the emotions they feel so deeply also translate into how they love. I know he loves our children fiercely. Just writing this are remembering all the reasons I fell in love with him is helping to soften my heart that has begun to harden towards him. Our son, whom I will call BoyChild, loves his Daddy. He absolutely does not like any of the outbursts of behavior, damage to the house, etc. BoyChild is extremely sensitive to times that I am in tears or stressed, etc. He longs to spend more quality time with my husband and is often fearful of talking with him. My husband has never raised a hand to me or either of the children or said ugly things to them. They see the evidence of what OCD (they use that as a catch all term) does to their Daddy and to me. BoyChild has often said that he loves his Daddy but hates OCD. The times my husband and I have lived apart, BoyChild will comment that he wants Daddy to be home but only if he doesn't break things or get so angry anymore. He wants him to get help. He remembers his Daddy going inpatient several times to get help. (Us not knowing at the time that inpatient is usually unhelpful for pwBPD). I can see how BoyChild is affected by all of this at times in aggressive behavior, misbehaviors, etc. I have always tried to maintain a safe place to talk about honest feeling without getting in trouble, etc. I've also taken him to our counselor for one on one and family sessions with me and even his sister. Right before this last bad patch, he even went with his Daddy once. What the boy wants most is quality time with his dad. The older he gets, the more he notices how different we are. He is almost 10.

Our daughter, GirlChild, just turned 6. She is closer to her Daddy than our son, most in part because I think that just naturally occurs with Daddies and their little girls. Not to mention time with him always means getting spoiled in some way. As far as she can remember there has always been some sort of turmoil around. Abnormal really is just normal for her. It's sad. She gets angry at me when her Daddy isn't living with us. It's a valid feeling for a 6 year old to have. She doesn't like the outburst or the broken things but it is just a normal way of life for her and she would rather have her Daddy at home. She has no fear or nervousness around him and won't hesitate to ask about something newly broken, etc. I worry about what all of this is doing to her because she is so young. Honestly, my biggest fear in relation to her is that she will grow up viewing me as malicious and won't want to have anything to do with me when she's older. Her direct experiences with him are all good. She is a very strong willed child and she and I go at it on a daily basis. Daddy isn't much of an enforcer or disciplinarian and will often call me in to discipline because he "can't handle it.' I pray when she gets older that she will have a more even understanding of our household. I also worry very much that my husband could easily attach his BPD fears onto her and she will grow up like me, constantly feeling responsible for someone else's happiness, etc.

I am currently staying. I don't see much of anything changing my mind about that. After some extremely bad moments, I have no doubts as to what my husband is capable of in the worst of the Borderline rages. I know that most of the general population would tell me to leave. Divorce isn't what I want. I truly want him to get help and for ours to be a success story in the end. I would like to think that any direct Borderline outbursts on the children would be a deal-breaker for me but I pray I never have to find out. I have read my children books on BPD, etc, to help them better understand. They have a great-grandmother with dementia and as sad as that is, it does help them understand how a person who looks healthy can still be very sick. It also helps them direct their anger and feelings towards the illness and not the person. I admit that all of this is very confusing to me. Especially the responsibility that a pwBPD has for their own recovery and treatment. I almost feel like if he had dementia, it would be easier to accept, if that makes sense. The diagnosis would be cut and dry. They cannot help their behavior, period. Whereas, BPD is a whole other story. Also, with all of my husband's comorbid diagnosis', I never really know what he is or isn't capable of. What do I expect? I never know from moment to moment, day to day.

I would like to here the stories of other people who are married, staying and have children. If you left or are planning to leave, what was/is your ultimate reason why? How do you explain BPD to your children? Does your spouse acknowledge and take responsibility for their diagnosis? Does your spouse defame you to your children? Help me glimpse through the window of your life, now that you've seen mine.

":)ivorce isn't what I want. I truly want him to get help and for ours to be a success story in the end. "

Divorce isn't what I want either. At the same time, I have learned to just accept that my wife might not truly ever get or accept help. I have seen others on this site whose spouses actually got worse over time. I do not say this to be a downer. Rather, true healing begins when you radically accept that this person simply might never want change. This truly might be the way that it is for the rest of your time here on earth. When I started to accept that, it helped with some of my bitterness toward my spouse. What happened to my spouse as a child (neglect and abuse) is truly horrible and I feel so very sorry for her. Even when she is raging or giving me the silent treatment, I try to just remember who badly she was treated during those formative years.

We come from a strong Christian background. We also have several children.
He has been verbally and physically abuaive with the kids. I called the authorities last time it happened. Since then he’s been more careful. Our religious beliefs are helpful to guide him when he wants to be self destructive.
I worry and the effects of divorce on the kids. I also worry about the effects of his BPD too. If I’m not there, I can’t protect the kids.

It’s just a mess... .

Walkinthepark,

My husband also suffered a traumatic childhood. This is something I remember when he is raging. I feel as if I am moving towards the whole radical acceptance thing. I believe I was close to that spot until I found out that there was successful treatment out there for BPD. Even had a new Christian psychiatrist tell him so. My hopes got lifted high and at his refusal, my hopes came crashing down again. I can accept, live through and endure a lot. After a recent especially bad episode, the worst I've ever seen him have, I feel a bit lost. A little numb inside. My first responses after that night were mostly a numb compliance with whatever he wanted. Over the weekend some of the feelings have returned in flashes of what happened. When I remember these awful snippets, I am over taken by anxiety. I don't ever want to experience anything like that again. Thank God the kids weren't home... .but what if they had been? I asked him that question and his response was simply to thank God they weren't. I want to be free of bitterness and resentment towards him. I want to not only forgive, but I desperately want to forget. I worry about the children.

You said you have several children. Do you share my fear that BPD will appear in one of them? I especially worry about our daughter who is completely biologically his. She has such a strong will and personality that she exhibits traits of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I have spent time learning on how to best communicate with her in light of that possibility. Things have gotten better. Because my husband does have such a strong history of mental illness, I find myself experiencing a lot of anxiety when either of the kids start to do anything that resembles a behavior that fits one of those definitions. I try to neither make a big deal out of it, nor encourage it. My husband sometimes encourages these behaviors that I fear may grow into something more than quirky, saying he/she is just like him.

Above to Jade... .

Hi ILuvABorderline and thank you for starting this thread and so candidly sharing your story. There are a lot of new members coming to the board recently asking the stay / dont stay question for the kids and I hope this can become a base for good discussion.

To answer your initial questions:

If you left or are planning to leave, what was/is your ultimate reason why?
Though I haven't decided yet, if I leave it will be because I think it would be better for the kids to have a happy father who is separate from mom than a very unhappy and frustrated dad who stays with mom. My mother was deeply depressed and it gave me a model for how life is and made me believe I couldn't be happy. 

How do you explain BPD to your children?
S5 and D2 are too young to understand BPD, so most of my time is spent countering the bad messaging they get from her when she's not around ("We would never send you away, you will always be with us, mommy and daddy love you," etc).

Does your spouse acknowledge and take responsibility for their diagnosis?
Acknowledge, on occasion. Take responsibility, might be starting to. Saw psychiatrist with me a few times, got some medication, and hasn't objected to the social worker interview our doctor wants to arrange. 

Does your spouse defame you to your children?
Yes this happens sometimes, false accusations of hitting her, saying dad doesn't care about you, etc. Again, instead of arguing, just counter the messaging. Her defaming seems to have little effect as the kids still like me a lot more than her, so it's not working (yet).

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld

Wow ILuvABorderline what an awesome thread and very pertinent to my thinking at the moment. Small background on my current position. uBPDw is having a emotional/religious/physical?/spiritual affair with someone at the church she goes to with. She claims I have verbally & emotionally abused her for our entire 20yr relationship and abusive to our children and has petitioned for divorce. I am still living in the family home and refuse to leave much to her dissatisfaction.


If you left or are planning to leave, what was/is your ultimate reason why?

I am standing for our marriage. Although I am religious (despite struggling with scientific argument), my reasons for standing for the marriage are based on values... .primarily the value of my vows. My reasons fro staying despite a vast swathe of popular opinion that I should leave is 3 fold. I see a positive impact on the children each and every day, not only in that despite being accused of abusing them I am left to care for them whilst my W runs around socialising e.g. 23 evenings in May (yes, I record it now), but also because I can unravel the ball of string she creates in the kids heads owing to her uBPD (will describe below). I believe that as soon as my W life doesn't pan out in her utopia with the OM she will have no one else to blame for the mess she has created other than me (since blaming herself is off the table), she is highly likely to parental alienate. Therefore building as strong a relationship with kids in the interim between now and divorce completion will hopefully be something that kids can reference in the future. Finally, when I moved out in Sep16 for 3m OM used that as an opportunity to build his relationship with my W with relative freedom thus defeating any point of being a therapeutic separation.

How do you explain BPD to your children?

My daughters are 9/8/5 so explaining BPD is not on the table. However, they do get concepts like emotional dysregulation if described in the right way. D9 is very emotionally sensitive and knows it so it has helped her understand her emotions better as well. I got a glass (our emotional cup) and put it in a metal tray. we took a jug of water (stress) and started to fill up the glass bit by bit suggesting what each bit of water (stress) is. When we got to the top I explained we were in control. We added the next bit and water flowed over the top. I described how we weren't in control anymore and we all talked about what happened when we weren't in control. We then talked about what we could do to try and get control of the water and bring the level down. I have also talked to them about the Karpman triangle and got my D9 to run through her own situations telling me where she and her sisters were in an argument.

Arguments typical to a family happen all the time, however rather than it appearing like there is one adult and 3 kids in the room, it sounds like there are 4 children in the room. W throwing around poorly thought out extreme threats, ignoring, withholding love etc etc I used to join in the chaos before I was aware of my own total stupidity, now I try and centre myself and act as coach. D9 regularly says to W "stop getting so stressy about everything" as she flips out and storms around the house. My kids see me as fair and ordered.

Does your spouse acknowledge and take responsibility for their diagnosis?

Although she is aware that I believe that she suffers from BPD traits and been to T for a year, she mysteriously stopped seeing her T as "it reached a natural conclusion". I believe it got a little too close to the truth and little too conflicting with her fantasy that I was the one who had a problem. My W definitely took no responsibility for her actions whilst I was similarly riding on the emotional rollercoaster with her... .But since I have gotten off the ride her own dysfunction is becoming more and more and more visible by the day. 

Does your spouse defame you to your children?

Yes, in discipline situations there was a huge funk of 'trauma reenactment'. Her discipline is chaotic which results in the children believing that if they push push push "we" will fold. She will typically flip flop, I will not. e.g. D5 shouted "I hate you" to W, W said "please don't say that to me". She shouted it again so I said "It's not nice to say that to Mummy, if you say that again you will be on the naughty step". D5 shouts it again. I took D5 by the hand (not forcibly) and led her to a step in the garden where I said to her "It is not appropriate to say I hate you to Mummy and Daddy, we will sit here quietly for 2 minutes and then you can go and play again, time starts when you're quiet." I clearly communicated this to her in a calm way and stayed calm throughout the next half an hour where she screamed, kicked, punched, threw things at me... .periodically informing her that time started when she was quiet. Eventually W storms up the path, looks me square in the eyes and says "you're cruel" picks D5 up and goes into the bedroom where she cuddles her on the bed for half an hour. As far as the kids are concerned Daddy is cruel.

Incidentally this was all on holiday with her OM and his family. He recently sent me a bizarre 8 page email telling me how abusive I was and I didn't realise it. His exact words about that incident was "The D5 incident the same holiday is a different matter though, however much you justify it to yourself, it certainly wasn't 'authoritative' parenting... .it was a despicable exhibition of mental abuse of a child that should not go without mention: you think you got away with it but I saw it, you know that, you exposed your worst features without me having to do a thing". ... .So, either I'm smoking rock (as is my T) of OM has full buy in to the delusion as well and I'm very sure helps to perpetuate my demonification.

Does your spouse acknowledge and take responsibility for their diagnosis?

I wanted to revisit this thread when I had a little more time. I can only write during limited times at work. My experience in this regard has been rather similar to what Enabler said previously. My wife was seeing a therapist and really seemed to be making some real progress. Recently, she stopped and I am on pins and needles worried that the next period of intense dysreguation is going to occur. There was a calmness to my wife while she was seeing this particular therapist. Previously, she was seeing a therapist that was wholly unprepared for the situation and seemed to make the matter worse.

This is in the exact same vein as a post I asked recently and Wentworth asked me to follow up with a new thread. Admittedly, I dropped the ball. I hope you view it as adding to your original post.

Going back to the pins and needles statement for a minute. I truly believe that I was suffering from some sort of PTSD last summer. It has subsided some, but it is always in the back of my mind. The question that I had asked, which is similar to yours, is whether it makes a difference for the physically abusive pwBPD to apologize or recognize that violence is wrong. Because, I have never heard that acknowledgment and that concerns me. The question I raised earlier, is whether it should concern me or should I just move along so long as things seem to be improving? 

How do you explain BPD to your children?

The other day, my wife was really lacing into our D5. I mean just reading her the riot act and not really making a lot of sense. I stepped in and forcefully told D5 to go to her room. In her presence, I also told my spouse that it wasn't ok to yell at her this fashion. Sometimes I view myself like a bouncer. Later that day, D5 came up and took my hand. She looked right at me and said "thank you for stopping mommy screaming at me. It scared me." Part of me thinks (hopes?) they will ultimately understand on their own that mommy's behavior is quite bizarre and irrational at times. I certainly don't have all the answers. 

Thank you all so much for your input and replies.


Enabler, I LOVE the water glass demonstration! I will absolutely be using this with my children. I would like to encourage you to consider the possibility that your older children might be able to understand BPD. My son is 9 and I'm amazed at his ability to grasp his father's illness and even simply and effectively explain it to others. Of course, each child is different.

For other parents, here are two books I purchased to help explain BPD and mental illness to my children.

"Millie The Cat has Borderline Personality Disorder"

"An Umbrella for Alex"

Hi ILAB, wow, I had no idea these books existed. I think I will definitely get them when my kids get older, thanks!

I think my mother may have been BPD or something related and if I had been given context as a child I think things would have gone a lot better for me.

~ROE

Morning,

I dont doubt this in the slightest. I have a couple of things holding me back from being explicit about BPD. Firstly my W is undiagnosed therefore I feel it somewhat reckless to start brandishing around BPD, as she gets older and possibly runs into more emotionally sensitive people I may well apply the label to it, but at this point I think it’s better to talk more about emotions in general than PDs. Secondly she is emotionally sensitive herself, gets pretty intense abandonment fears and other feelings she cannot describe. I don’t want her to label herself with BPD given there’s no certainty that these sensitivities won’t soften with maturity and validation from me. We talk openly about her abandonment fears which has eased her anxiety a little as she’s learning to understand when it happens.

Talking of abandonment fears, there was a ‘funny’ incident when I observed my wife getting exhasperated about the fact that D9 wouldn’t let her go out to the pub one evening (one of many and one of many when D9 kicks off and refuses to let her go). I laughed to myself because the argument was almost exactly the same as the arguements I used to have with W in the first 10yrs of our marriage. Me not understanding why she objected to me going out for a few pints occasionally after work. I had no clue about irrational abandonment fears. My W ability to self reflect is so limited she cannot see her own behaviour in other people... .even her own kids. It was almost word for word comparable.

Enabler

I have read here some wonderful things and admired the wisdom when it comes talking to kids about difficult things, like stress and example with water. Brilliant. But one thing mentioned here haunts me even in my sleep. I was going let it slide, but as it kept me awake at night... .I don’t want to offend anyone, everyone knows best what it is best for their kids. It just food for thought.


When kid says I hate you mom, dad, he doesn't really mean it. There is reason for that. And it is adult’s job to find it. It is not up to 5 years old to stay within the reason when talking to people, especially ill people. Yes, kids need to learn what’s right and wrong, but usually their actions and words are how they express their emotions. It is for us to recognise those emotions and help kid to recognise them and express it in a healthy way. There is no bad or good emotions. When kid says, I hate you mom. It’s painful. But let it go. And later that day, just ask: earlier you said that you hated me, it hurt me a lot, why did you say it? And kid will tell. Maybe someone was mean to him/her at school, maybe you didn't notice something he/she did, maybe he/she just anxious about mom's health, or feeling that dad is stressed and it is defensive mechanism to say I hate you. They don't know better. Talk talk talk. They did nothing wrong. They are learning. Forcing them to take responsibility for their words is not helping them to cope with their emotions. It is letting them think it is not ok what they feel, they shouldn't feel it. Straight way in developing BPD.

Speaking of which. Last few days I was reading about all this validating thing. And it struck me how much living with BPD is like raising a child. I do all that everyday with my kid. I understand she doesn't reason like me, I listen. I try to see from her point of view, reminding myself she hasn't faced with this before, she doesn’t know it yet. If I feel I m losing my temper I step away. And it is easy. Which is not easy with my husband, because I assume that he has experienced and learned it all. But that is not the case with BPD. He has not experienced, he hasn't learned how to respond or express feelings. Or when he says smth that hurts you, wait, and talk about it later. So knowing this I should be able to communicate with him as easy as with my kid, without too high expectations and judgement, but it isn't easy. I still want to resolve things in the heat of the moment. Which leads to more pain. I don’t say we should talk with them as with kids. No one would like to be talked as kid. Just we need to use the same techniques that we actually know already (those of us that have kids)!

I am sorry, maybe I am of topic. It is nice thread here. I didn’t really had time to think about the impact of BPD on my kid. It is to new for me. It is up for me to offer emotional stability. I know one thing, if it is not stable environment, if I feel like she’s too anxious, or there’s too much anger outbursts towards her or me, I’ll leave without hesitation. For now, it is under control. And he is trying. And I think he is trying only because he doesn’t want to lose her.

desperate.wife, no offence taken at all. The last 2 years have been a huge learning process for me, not just about BPD, but myself and how to raise kids. Disrespect from my kids used to really bother me and you're right, I possibly shouldn't have felt the need to discipline her for that outburst... .I flip flop about that. I certainly could have dealt with it differently, and now I do. Now I say "Owww! That makes Daddy feel sad when you say you hate me, why do you hate me today?" Unfortunately at the time I didn't know this and I forgot how a child thinks when I stopped being a child. I know that I certainly wouldn't have said that to my own parents when I was 5. However, I did choose to discipline her and I was not unreasonable in doing so. The method I chose was not abusive yet the suggestion from my W was that it was abusive. The discipline didn't go to plan at the time but at any point D5 was capable and understanding enough to be able to stop, sit still and be quiet... .but she chose not to. W's reaction could have been to come and support me or suggest another way, but she choose to place me in the perpetrator position and call me cruel.

Funnily enough OM's W came up to me whilst I was exasperated by my W's reaction and said "I could see what you were trying to do there, it didn't work. Next time sit her down, tell her the plan and walk away." The following day the same thing happened and I followed her advice. D5 was good as gold, I thanked her for being quiet, repeated the reason why she was sitting on the step and she went off and continued to play.

There's no rule book for raising kids, we do what we can and try our best. However we don't need to be accused of being abusive when things don't go perfectly. Sometimes there will be distress. I have now found better ways as part of my continual improvement... .actually through reading the communication tools, ju-jitsu parenting skills and the book 'When Hope is not Enough'.

"When kid says I hate you mom, dad, he doesn't really mean it. There is reason for that. And it is adult’s job to find it. It is not up to 5 years old to stay within the reason when talking to people, especially ill people."

I've noticed in my household that my D5 has really learned to push her pwBPD mother's buttons. D5 will say things (which I certainly don't condone) such as calling you dumb or boring (her fav go-to) when you punish her. For me, I just roll my eyes. But, for my BPD wife, she really takes it personally. Half the time, I don't think that D5 knows exactly what she is saying. When my spouse gets really emotional after being called a name, my D5 will sometimes laugh at her. It's like she knows she can get an unreasonable response from her mother. It also perpetuates this endless cycle. My spouse has a horribly low self-esteem, to begin with. So, even a 5-year-old calling her a name sends her even lower.

Thank you, I slept good :d

You are doing great job in raising your kids. It is hard when we are tired and have to be alerted all the time about our second half. For me it sometimes feels like I am having a teenager at home :d So I do get tired and lose my temper, then I feel guilty. I’m scared how hard is to get rid of frustration that comes when I am tired and she wouldn't obey immediately because she is tired too. However, I am aware of it and I try to distance from that. Luckily, that doesn’t happen often. I try to get all the sleep possible.

Funny thing, it is me usually contradicting him when it comes on parenting. He hates it. But I can't help. We have our ways with my girl, and we do good. I am with her all the time. We have our habits. And he jumps in from time to time without thinking, confusing her. I know it is not right to contradict other parent, but there's things I can't let go. I usually try to solve this by saying it was misunderstanding... .Which often is. As we talk in different languages to her and he never bothered to learn mine (except some words or sentences that he caught up through years), he doesn't know what I've just said to her.

Kids learn fast such things. They get reaction and they repeat. Maybe more reaction than when she was saying good things? Each situation is different. I have read somewhere that all kids learn by  being explained  things, just for some it is enough to explain few times, for others 10000 times. Patience. Maybe it is true with BPD people too?  We just lose patience faster with adults. I try to explain my husband when we are calm what was the situation, how everyone felt in it, how it would be best to react. He accepts, but it takes time to learn to apply it in the heat of action and depression. And I keep repeating that it is not personal that she didn't hug him now or said this or that. I don’t know if it works. And I do tell her listen to dad, he loves you, he is tired.

Children and adults learn a lot of things by reward and pain. I think as a parent 2 years ago I held each tool in equal regard believing that the pain side of things was actually important. I still believe it is an important tool but thinking about it rationally and the proportions I would like to use pain/pleasure to instruct my kids... .why would I want to use pain other than when absolutely necessary. Couple this with the serious acknowledgment that what I want for my kids firstly might not be what they want... .nor might it actually be in their best interests, and they might actually know better than me I've pretty much eradicated pain as a tool... .HOWEVER... .and this is a big HOWEVER and where the BPD traits really step in, children need consistency. Lack of consistency means there is room for debate, if something isn't always a certain way then it's up for debate and debate often means conflict. I am consistent, with age appropriate boundaries marked out by rules. My W can't do consistency... .why? Because she acts on the basis of what is good for her, what will make her feel good and what is best for her in the moment. This is never disclosed so invariably it's pitched as what's good for the kids, but since her ever changing rules don't tie with their needs, nor any level of consistent rules... .guess what... .the kids reject them and argue everything... .and INVALIDATE HER.

He lack of consistency and emotion led rules system ultimately leads back to the very thing she hates, invalidation, conflict / emotional abandonment... .which leads to feeling like a failed mother, unloved by her own offspring.

I think this article sums it up very nicely:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

"Parenting
It is interesting to note what is most likely to occur when the borderline becomes a parent. Typically, a borderline adult gets exactly what they feel they have always needed when they have a baby. That is, while it has proven almost impossible to merge with another adult, while simultaneously maintaining control over the relationship, with a baby that is exactly what the borderline achieves. The situation is, at first, tantalizingly perfect. The borderline wants perfect recognition of their own independence and that is what they perceive within their merger with the infant. As long as they respond to the child's biological needs in the first few months, the child is very likely to seem to be giving perfect recognition of the borderline's independence. To the borderline, the fact that they are now a parent, seems like individuation. To the baby, the soothing the borderline can accomplish makes them gaze contentedly into the glow of the borderline's eyes, thus giving recognition of the borderline's independence.

Predictably, however, as soon as the baby has independent striving, the borderline parent experiences abandonment at the hands of their very own child. Such abandonment or individuation is impossible for the borderline to tolerate and thus they react to their own child with distaste, anger, ignoring behavior, and they use any other means necessary to thwart their child's independence. The child learns that independence and individuation is horrifying to the parent, on whom the child absolutely depends for everything. The child then adapts to the parent's needs by maintaining some level of merger with the parent, and denying their own need for recognition of their true nature and/or independence. The behavior developed by the child is only the behavior that is pleasing to the parent, and thus does not reflect what is specifically special in the child.

The cycle continues in this way. The child now desires true recognition of their independent striving which has been abandoned. They desire merger and cling to others, but fear others taking over and controlling them, just as their parent did. Sometimes they rely on rage to help prove their separation from, and control over, others. They attempt to be in control over their merging or withdrawing from others. They are left, in this way, unable to maintain any real lasting relationships in which they are capable of getting their true needs met. They constantly look for true recognition but cannot achieve it because they are unable to tolerate the vulnerability of truly acknowledging the extent to which they feel starved for real love. When someone appears to have enough control to bestow true recognition on this new borderline, the borderline's reaction remains defensive withdrawal, clinging, and rage, often with suicidality and clear blame toward the desired other, all in the attempt to regain the sense that they are indeed the one in control of the relationship."

Enabler