Print Page - Matthew 8:23-27 [Christian Discussion]

So, I'm in church yesterday and the reading is the following:

Matthew 8:23-27 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Calms the Storm
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

So, we're asked to break-out into small discussion groups and discuss what we feel is important in the reading. After listing to some other people I asked:

"If Jesus was surprised that the disciples woke him from his sleep and disappointed they did not have enough faith... .what does faith look like and therefore what should one do when your own boat is being overcome by the storm? Does God expect you to have complete faith that he resolve everything, does he expect us to bail out the boat and do everything we can without ever questioning it's not going to be okay in the end, or does he expect us to put our feet up and trust that everything is in his plan?"

I am in a boat in a storm. I am hopefully making wise choices based on thought and values. I'm in control of the things in my control, I'm holding onto the sides and bailing out periodically and I accept that I can't do anything about the storm that rages around me.

Is this all that faith expects of me? Doing very little is what I believe I'm being shown to do... .so that is what I am doing!

This could be a metaphor for relationships.

Faith can be stepping out of the way and letting people learn to solve their own dilemmas. It isn't necessary to be an emotional fixer at times. It actually takes away the learning experience for the other person. Doing little while your wife is in an emotional storm may be the best thing.

This is different from doing nothing for your own betterment. If we want to buy something, we need to earn the money for it. I don't think God wants us to not do what we can for ourselves but we also need to not step across other people's boundaries. We should give to charity, help others, but not take away their ability to help themselves as much as they can. People with a mental illness may be limited in that extent, but even with limitations, people need the self pride of also doing what they can for themselves and others.

I believe that in addition to "free will"... .God also gave us, graced us, .blessed us with common sense, .

I have always thought to myself, that God is always very busy, and if I can take care of something on my own, then that "frees up" the Good Lord to do more important things, like get those poor kids outa that cave in Thailand!

I meant that as humor... .and thank God that those kids are being recused !... .but seriously, God wants us to ask for help, for courage, for guidance in our everyday lives... .which are fraught with many pitfalls, and obstacles to be sure.

I ask the Good Lord daily for help, protection, guidance, and the ability to see the path before me... .for the good of all, not just me.

The ability to ask for these things, and not to expect what we want, but what is Gods perfect will for us, that's where the faith part comes in in (imho).

In relationships, there are two people, both "creations" of God, and both have the "free will" programing, .I have come to realize, after many years... that God cannot, and will not "change" someone's else's heart for us, .that is up to that individual person... .that's the hard part to understand... .I prayed for years for God to restore my first marriage... .but in the end it failed to survive, .it was kind of a "Lot's wife moment" I guess... .and in the end, I got my kids, and we escaped... ."free will"... .powerful stuff !

Good thread !

Red5

Red,

I believe (and there could be a healthy slug of cognitive bias in this) that god puts little road humps, prompts in front of us. Our interpretation of these humps or messages is kinda up to our free will. Here’s an example:

W is driving along the road listening to Christian music, she’s pondering about her current enslaved position married to Enabler feeling imprisoned and pondering whether her current course of action (divorce and affair with OM in the church) was totally cool with god. Anyway, a removal van with a big oak tree and Eanbler (and W) surname pulls in front of her. She takes a photo and tells all her friends at church that this is a sign from god that god wants her to have strength (as an oak) and crack on with current plans. My instant take on it was “if god wanted you to divorce and thought you were doing the right thing, why was he saying the oak came from enablers surname not yours? Surely it would have been an oak coming from W maiden name?”

Similarly she sees messages about “sanctifying herself” in a lot of talks and scripture... .which she takes to mean get ride of Enabler... .rather than what I took it to mean as actually look at her own life, her own behaviours and her own treatment of others... .her own BPD. To tackle the long held wounds from childhood once and for all so that she can be a good Christian servant.

I pray that someone helps her revisit these “clear messages” from god as she calls them and maybe see if there’s a different “clearer message” which she should draw from them. She has a heart of gold, but with an inability to introspect her free will leads her to destruction rather than betterment (obviously betterment being what I want... .tumbleweed!).

Jesus of Nazareth spoke a lot of marriage in the New Testament... .

Here are a couple... .

Matthew 19:8-9 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Matthew 5:32 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

... .pretty explicit imho !

Paul also had a few words... .

1 Corinthians 7:
1Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

6 I say this as a concession, not as a command.

... .continuing in verse 10,

11 But if she does (separate from her husband), she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

... .boy, I surely messed this all up, .I certainly feel now, that after having divorced my first wife due to adultery, and abandonment, .that I should have stayed single, but my carnal urges did get the best of me, and so I re-married, .to my current wife, who also divorced her first husband due to adultery, and abandonment... .and she I suspect is a pw/BPD (udx)... .

Ah' free will !

... .it got me Enabler !

What was it that Jesus said about beams... .in your eye?

The "A" word is in the "top ten" !... .and holds the seventh position, #7, the judgment number... ."Seven is the number of completeness and perfection both physical and spiritual (ie' marriage)."

God has a plan for us all I reckon, .albeit now I think I believe its more like a (to channel the Blues Brothers)... .more like a "mission from God"... ."should you choose to accept it", .(free will)... .ie' caretaker role... .as I did in my first marriage, and now this current marriage.

Hang in there Enabler!... .I for one WILL be praying for you, and your wife and children!... .as I would wish no one would ever have to go through what I did when my first marriage ended... .no, .no I wouldn't... .so I will be praying for you Brother !... .yes I will !

Red5

Well yet another non-work day has come and gone and the forms she needs to complete and return to further the divorce process have stayed in the pile, buried deep with kids school things. The envelope has been opened, the forms viewed
No doubt but popped back in for more consideration. It’s been 3 weeks now.

I think talk of divorce and ‘abuse’ from me gains her connection with people... .mainly her family and her bully pitying sister. Families are odd like that, for all their dysfunction we find ourselves relentlessly attempting to get it to work above all other things. If only she knew that it was impossible unless her mum has a biblical amount of therapy and a life U turn. Pity/rescue = love to her.

OM is a nut job and I rest heavily on the following verse

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

The boards have taught me many many things about what to expect with any potential divorce, my behaviour now is magnified like a ripple into the future. I can’t control what happens then but I can control how I deal with it and the things I prioritise during the process. Remain outcome orientated.

I 100% agree and believe this is what is happening. The frustration that they cannot be together is killing her. Every time I attend an event where they might be able to spend time together socialising as a “couple”... .sorry, as “friends”, she gets all narky, as though I’m depriving her of some kind of entitlement.

The thing is she has a fight on 2 fronts. One front is the affair, which she’s convinced most people isn’t going on and it’s just another arm of my abuse, and the second front is all the people she has enabling her to get a divorce. The people involved in the divorce will start to expect progress... .they will expect to see her stay in the lifeboat not just jump back in the sea. She runs the risk of alienating those who are rescuing her... .then she reaches the new low. Those who rescued her will all turn to perpetrators.

She asked me this evening whether it was okay for her to go running at 6:30am leaving our D5 / D8 & D9 at home alone... .she feels a sense of entitlement to the exercise that keeps her emotions medicated! But really?

Faith, church, and BPD -- should be it's own category.

For me, about 3.5 years ago, I entered a personal "storm" that involved several different fronts converging (only part of it was BPD related). I really couldn't do anything except what I had been given to do and even that was dwindling. I would talk with God about what was happening and had a deep sense that he knew and was my safe place. For a while, I had a sense of darkness without a clear direction for a next step. I trusted that he would show me the steps he wanted me to take when the time was right.

My h was serving at his church under a narcissistic pastor who was abusive. There is an interesting and powerful connection between NPD and BPD. Anyway, h had people in his life telling him that he needs to divorce me because I have put some boundaries in place and because we're just bad for each other (church leaders... .). They told him he needed to move out and start divorce proceedings, so he moved out. But... . Darn, it would cost a "lot" to get a divorce and it's not a quick process. I think his family and friends offered to 'help' him with it, even. Then, he decided they were all 'controlling'.

Meanwhile, I'm somewhere else just minding my own business... . Taking the steps that God has laid out in front of me. Trusting that the truth will come out.

Hi Enabler and all,

Regarding the balance between faith and action, this is the "process" that has worked out for me at a number of significant times in my life (mainly career-related):

1. Acknowledge the existence of a problem or an area in which you feel your life circumstances could be improved.
2. Pray for God to help out with that and ensure you are following His laws to the best of your knowledge and ability, both the ones that apply to the problem area and generally. << I understand from the Bible that this is a precondition for the process to work. If you aren't doing that, you can always start from now. Also check that your request from Step 1 actually is compatible with God's laws, and modify it accordingly if not. For example, is what you really need just something to deal with hurtful feelings that you are experiencing, as opposed to a specific change of circumstances from X to Y?
3. Take some kind of a practical real-life step to acknowledge and be involved in the improvement process (start actively job hunting, start house hunting, get an MC, etc.) Continue doing this level of involvement. Keep praying. << I have found in my experience that taking a practical step is important, I can't prove this theologically and YMMV. Maybe it functions as a commitment to show that you are serious about wanting the change IRL.
4. Wait. ... .Repeat. ... .Wait some more. ... .Wait till you think you have waited for ages and you can't possibly wait any more and this is really unfair and you want the thing NOW PLEASE. << This right here is the part where you grow. Like working out, if you stop when it's still easy you haven't made any strength gains, but if you keep going till you are not sure if you can actually do one more rep, then you have made a strength gain.
5. In God's timing, an amazing solution or blessing shows up which you would not have thought of or discovered by your Step 3 human activities.
Congratulations! You have just levelled up. Repeat as often as you like.

I'm well aware that God is not a slot machine and this is not a magic method to exploit Him for blessings. What it is is a series of events or stages that I have experienced on a number of different occasions for different reasons, that has always followed the same pattern and worked out in the same way.

This includes my current "problem area", and recognizing the pattern was how I knew for example that my OM-of-interest was not the solution (step 2, check compliance with God's laws, Number 7 as Red5 and NotWendy point out, not happening, please modify the request and proceed to Step 3 + 4). I would love to be able to tell your W about some of the "signs" there that I could have taken as such if I'd been her way inclined. It's true God sends to His children signs and angel messengers, but it's also true that He allows for His children tests and Satan-originated temptations. It sounds like your W is lacking in discernment in this respect, and/or having what discernment she has overridden by all the contrary reinforcement, especially from the OM.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

I have two big thoughts... .1 religious and 1 "practical", that might put enabler back in control... vice reacting.

Prov 4:23 (protect your heart) is a great verse. I'm a fan of the entire passage. Passing down advice on how to best "serve" in this world.

I find it interesting that "protecting your heart" is critical to service... .because "all else flows from there".

I simplify it for me personally to say (in my head) "protect myself from the worst, so I can be of service to the best... "

Second idea (about OM): Remind me again if this guy is in a leadership or official capacity in a church? Do the laws allow you to go after someone that is knowingly interfering in your marriage.

Some states/countries have laws that basically say "you may be held liable for knowing interfering with a marriage".

Anyway... .it would be interesting to expose them, especially if there could be real consequences. Shining the light on hypocrisy usually has interesting results. Said another way... .there is a reason they have said those things in private, vice preach them from pulpit. Once there is real risk of actual beliefs and actions becoming public... .there could be very interesting results.

FF

Morning FF, wise words as usual. On your second point he’s not in any leadership capacity in the church (fortunately). He’s just very ‘involved’. It’s a very very small church and frankly I think most people have a pretty good idea about what is going on but plead ignorance. Small churches suffer the dilemma of doing what’s right and biblical be potentially alienating 2 energetic members and 100% of its Sunday school attendees... .or turn a blind eye and carry on. For many of the fuddyduddies in the little parish church, this is their life, all their friends, their leisure time... .they will do anything to see it go on another few years.

Meddling in things seems to have made things worse in the past. I know I have more staying power than she/he does!

Quote from: Enabler on July 12, 2018, 08:40:10 AM

=

There's a fine line between helping people see what's in front of them, and a smear campaign.

Enabler... .

In a Christian spirit (sometimes hard to convey in writing) I would hope to point you to the scripture.

Any plain reading of the discipline process in Matthew would seem to suggest that you keep involving others (it gets bigger and bigger) until the church takes a stand or the person(s) in sin repent.

If a church or church leader chooses to ignore adultery so a church service can be more vibrant (is that basically what you are suggesting?)... .then that (to me) shows a stunning amount of disregard for God's word.

My guess is that you have stopped short of "removing all doubt" so a church leader was able to press on "without knowing the full truth".

In fairness to church leaders, it's not their job to investigate. It is their job (and other Christians) to hear what is brought before them (matters of sin).

Again... .I don't see a fine line... .or any line really, as long as you are speaking the truth.

Now... .if you went to your husband job... .or neighbor (not in the church)... .or other people "that aren't involved"... .then again, there is no fine line it is a smear campaign

Said another way, I don't see anyway that bringing this to the church is a smear campaign. "any" is a big word... .I was thoughtful when I chose it.

There is no suggestion in the Bible this will be an easy process. I also don't see any suggestion that it's OK for you to "ignore" this.

Your spouse appears to be ignoring the importance of your marriage vows. Those vows were made to who? (very serious question actually... please answer it)

I would encourage you to take your vows seriously... .

Thoughts?

FF

Quote from: formflier on July 12, 2018, 09:15:10 AM

Your spouse appears to be ignoring the importance of your marriage vows. Those vows were made to who? (very serious question actually... please answer it)

They were made to me in front of God.

She has devalued those promises and annulled the marriage in her head as per Dobsons p101-104 "to resolve martital guilt... ."I know what I am doing is difficult for you now, but someday you will understand that it is for the best. I never really loved you even when we were young. In fact, we should never have gotten married in the first place. Furthermore, this divorce is really your fault. You drove me to it by _______(insert greivance here, such as frigidity, in-law problems, nagging, overwork or all the foregoing)"

Extracts from Whatsap last years from her:
"It would not be okay for me to stay married to you because I feel guilty in causing you so much emotional damage when we were first together. I know that has been one of the drivers in the past for me staying when I didn't feel our relationship was okay. "

"I simply can't have my husband trying to pin a mental health issue on me, following all the anger, coercion and controlling. Irrespective of whether past behaviour of mine led to such behaviour, or whether or not the behaviour was intentional. It's all just too much. The bottom line is I have never felt heard, understood, cherished, accepted, comfortable, safe, emotionally supported, so never actually felt truly loved. I know you love me, but I cannot reconcile the anger, control and coercion with love, it's confusing and is damaging. And you have done it to the kids too. I tried to get you to hear me and understand my need for boundaries so many times but I just received venom and denial back. This has all been going on for so long, for so many years, and I just need an end to it."

Quote from: Enabler on July 12, 2018, 09:47:51 AM

for me staying when I didn't feel our relationship was okay. "
The bottom line is I have never felt heard, understood, cherished, accepted, comfortable, safe, emotionally supported, so never actually felt truly loved.

I know you love me, but I cannot reconcile the anger, control and coercion with love, it's confusing and is damaging. And you have done it to the kids too. I tried to get you to hear me and understand my need for boundaries so many times but I just received venom and denial back. This has all been going on for so long, for so many years, and I just need an end to it."

I guess I could have quoted the entire thing... .it's hard to know what to quote and what to leave out.

Perhaps there is a mental health issue here (I'm almost certain of it) and I'm certain there is a spiritual issue here.

There are wide variety of wedding vows, do you know exactly what you guys vowed?

How does that compare with her "reasoning" now?

FF

Enabler & FF;

Please pardon my "sidebar", these verses of scripture came to mind as I was reading Enablers posts at:
*Today at 12:56:59 AM & *Today at 08:40:10 AM

In regards to the "OM"... .who is walking in your corn patch,

Matthew 18:15-22 New King James Version (NKJV)

Dealing with a Brother who is sinning against you,

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again[a] I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Pretty straightforward, .but the body of the Church has to be strong enough to support and sustain this.

Red5

N, will you take N to be your husband?
Will you love him, comfort him, honour and protect him,
and, forsaking all others,
be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?

Followed by

I, N, take you, N,
to be my wife,
to have and to hold
from this day forward;
for better, for worse,
for richer, for poorer,
in sickness and in health,
to love and to cherish,
till death us do part;
according to God’s holy law.
In the presence of God I make this vow.

I made my vows to her in front of God.

Red, I have told him (multiple times) and he sent me an 8 page email. They both deny what they know I have read... .what you have read in fact... .and threatened that if I show anyone else any “private communications” they will report me to the police. There is no sense of guilt, no send of shame, or maybe there is so much that it has to be covered up with threats of “the law”, and the “the law” is not biblical, it says that I should have had access to their private communications and therefore I am in the “wrong”. Morally and biblically maybe I/we can argue not... .but we live in the real world where people can lie, people can deceive and people can get an awful lot of rescuing whilst they are committing horrible sins in the background. I have to strike a balance between the 2.

Quote from: Enabler on July 12, 2018, 11:37:13 AM

I have to strike a balance between the 2.

I would hope you can examine your thinking, prayerfully... .regarding "having to" strike a balance.

Red quoted the scripture that was mainly on my mind. Certainly there are other Biblical principles in other places that support this.

Just because you believe someone else will lie, doesn't mean you shouldn't Biblically involve the appropriate people.

Frankly, my view is that is exactly why you involve the appropriate other people.

I would think inviting in the police and "legitimate" investigators would be a good step, although I would suggest you do it and this point.

If they were to ever do that... .I can't imagine how an accurate... or even close to accurate view of their actual communications in anyway hurts you.

When you read your vows... .is there any hint or thought of "balancing" things?

Seriously?

FF

Any kind of police record, jumped up or whatever and my career is gone... .if that’s me counting earthly wealth then that’s just going to have to be a line wheee my faith stops. I’ve read enough posts from gents on the board who’ve involved the police in domestic business and it’s not gone well for them.

I have imvolved the right people, hell the pair of them have imvolved 5 different sets of Christian groups/leaders in an attempt to convince and gain validation that their “friendship” was blessed as sent by god! Each group told them to stop (excluding their local church whom they didn’t approach obvs) in no uncertain terms yet they continue unabaited... .and yes, these religious consultations were after the meaaages I shared in another thread. THEY KNOW but as Notwendy says, narcissists don’t believe the rules apply to them and BPDs can’t freaking help themselves when they feel it’s right!

Certainly I would involve a consult with a lawyer, but generally speaking, as long as you are presenting the truth and have evidence to back it up, it's not slanderous, libelous... .or any of that.

What exactly are they going to "go to the police with"?

Seriously... exactly what will they claim?

And... .if it's your value judgment to put your career above biblical clarity of your marriage vows... .that's an OK judgment to make. I certainly support anyone and everyone to make value judgments about what they are going to believe or not.

If that is going to be the case that you arrange your values in that way, I would suggest that you evaluate that value judgment against your other values to make sure they are consistent.

Use the same scale to measure yourself in different areas of your life... .also make sure the same scale that you measure yourself with, is one you are willing to measure others with.

Matthew 7:2 would be good to study on and I would certainly recommend reading surrounding verses to make sure it is in context.

I believe that general message to be consistent throughout the Bible. Said another way, I'm not sure of any place where it is suggest to measure someone else by a scale you are not willing to use on yourself.

Thoughts?

Again... .they are getting a consistent message, yet their local church doesn't know. I think it is entirely in your purview to let the local church know or ask those counselors to let the local church know... .or more than likely go with you.

The Bible is not big on doing things anonymously.

FF

Quote from: formflier on July 12, 2018, 05:41:24 PM

What exactly are they going to "go to the police with"?

Invasion of privacy accessing personal data, coercive control (which is pretty easy to claim with very little evidence at all), general "abuse" (which again is very easy to claim with no evidence at all). She has already shown interest in restraining orders but not gone there and I believe she has opened an "abuse" file with the police as she received a letter from victim support. At that point I massively freaked and realised she was on her own on this one. I'm all for being proactive and trying to sort this out... .show people the truth... .make them see... .but there's a point where I am playing with someone with a gun and I'm not sure anymore whether or not she is prepared to use it as her delusions fueled by others that I am trying to destroy her are making her dangerous and unpredictable. Fighting to the death is not in anyone's interest.

Here's an example of how others are fueling (I might add I am fueling by the very act of trying to stop her from blowing up our family, snooping, trying to tell her, telling the church, telling her parents... .etc etc):

Her Mum recently bought her a book called "Unravelled" by Vikie Sharks... .“September 15th 2007 is a date that will stay with me always. For it’s the day that Paul, my late husband and father to my seven children, decided he’d had enough of the life he had created for us all, and took himself off to the woods on the edge of our property, and fatally slashed his neck and arms.” I was thinking, hmmm this is kinda positive reading the back summary, maybe this is something about BPD... .anyway, I read a bit and looked online and then watched the film on Netflix called "Kingdom of us". Turns out it isn't anything to do with BPD (although one of his surviving kids now suffers from BPD due to the childhood trauma), it's about the fact that the Dad was controlling, he had a model of happiness that he imposed on his wife and kids and when that model didn't provide the happiness he expected he planned to lock all the kids in each of their rooms and kill them one by one. Fortunately he changed his mind and instead committed suicide. My MIL thinks that I am the one that is controlling my family, the one attempting to derive some utopia, who's forcing his family to do xyz, to live here, to go here on holiday. She could not be further from the truth. So now, she's injected the idea that I plan to lock everyone in their rooms and kill the whole family... .because that's what 'Paul' did.

I see life in the grey, I am rarely Black or White about anything, in fact I'm the worst contrarian. I'm not even that Black and White about my wife's affair. On some level I do get it. I don't condone it, but I get how it happens. Sometimes I do feel like God is telling us to 'stay in the boat, keep your hands in and just bail out'.

Proverbs 20:22 - Do not say "I will repay evil"; wait for the lord, and he will deliver you.

Ephisians 4:1-3 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

My values are for me... .I will not have a relationship with another woman whilst I am married to my W. I will protect my family (I cannot protect them if I have a restraining order against me). I have realised that I cannot protect my wife from herself though.

Do you have your own lawyer, Enabler? Even if you personally are not interested in divorce, it seems you could need a lawyer to defend you for these false allegations.

Your MIL seems to have some distorted thinking too. With her, your wife, and OM all building a case against you, you may need someone competent with the law in your camp.

This reminds me of when my BPD mother was angry at me and called up relatives to give them an earful of lies about me. Then she told them not to tell me what she said. The one mistake she made was to call my in laws ( who are on to her ) and they told me about it. Otherwise I would have had no idea.

As a result, her FOO stopped speaking to me altogether. There were a few family occasions where I was there and it was embarrassing to think they really thought that what she said was true. I thought about approaching them to clear the record, but it would have put them in the situation to either believe her or me, and it could also backfire if I was perceived as speaking poorly about my mother- and that was consistent with what they have heard from her- "her daughter mistreats her".

Like you, I decided that Truth would prevail in its own time and so I went on living according to my own values. If they didn't know the truth, God did. But what was not at stake was a divorce, custody of children, my finances or my job. She did considerable damage to my relationships with her FOO, but not the other things I mentioned. You have a lot at stake in this. I hope that you have some solid defense.

I wish it was overt enough to defend. I don't 'know' about most of this stuff ((or at least I am not supposed to 'know' and have 'found' most of it out by my snooping. I can theorise as much as I like about what has been said and what has gone on but only W knows the full picture. FOO's tend to rally around and protect the injured fawn... .in my W's case there are 3 injured fawn's all protecting each other... .MIL who's the root cause of the mayhem, SIL who's very spiteful and condescending (bullied W as well when younger), and my W... .FIL just nods and keeps his head down whilst taking endless verbal from MIL. I have had informal legal advice from a friend who is a lawyer and works in a large law practice. He spends a lot of time chuckling at the absurdity of it all. I also have a friend who's a police office who advised me about what would be the polices likely course of action there.

My hunch is that W has said I have abused her to FOO by "controlling her", MIL has drawn her own conclusions based on me having a job and have provided for my family and that I don't tolerate her kind of abuse (like FIL does) that I must be a psychopath who has some insane ideas of what a loving family should look like... .who will then go and kill his whole family! FWIW MIL's idea of a loving family is standing at the kitchen sink calling my FIL a useless idiot, whilst painting everyone black, blaming anyone but herself for the fact that the roast potatoes were ever so slightly more crispy than she'd like... .before ignoring everyone for 2 weeks. FEEEEEEEEEEEEL THE LOVE.

Notwendy, like you I have decided that there is enough 'evidence' out there to point people to the truth if they choose to see it. Every time I try and point to the factual evidence, it somehow reinforces to her supporters that I am abusive as they see the emotional evidence. "Can you not see you're upsetting her?"... ."I can but what does the fact that she's crying mean I actually did anything worth of her tears?"

I have a lot of evidence that suggests a pattern of behaviors which predates me. How this would help me I don't know really. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Quote from: Enabler on July 13, 2018, 04:09:31 AM

My values are for me... .I will not have a relationship with another woman whilst I am married to my W. I will protect my family (I cannot protect them if I have a restraining order against me). I have realised that I cannot protect my wife from herself though.

Doesn't God have some instructions about "how" you go about protecting your family from this kind of thing?

Your values are for you... I agree... .I would hope you would also agree they are for your marriage, at least what you can control.

So... .is there a criminal code that covers the items you listed? Those sound very general.

I'm not minimizing them in the least. This sounds like the kind of thing a conversation with a lawyer could clear up.

FOG ... .there is a heavy "fear" element based on her potentially doing irrational things.

FF

Quote from: formflier on July 13, 2018, 09:48:24 AM

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship

The definition is intentionally vague and focuses a lot on "causes the victim to xyz". Since intimate relationship deputes are predominantly focused around a lot of he said she said, especially in cases where there is not "incident" to speak of. It comes down to who the police believe. Just refer to the member a week or so ago who was slammed on the head deliberately by his dysregulating wife then proceeds to almost be arrested by a nearby cop! Anyway, my relationship with my wife is not under my control, I can offer my side of the relationship such that if she chose to offer her side we could reconnect... .but I cannot actually control the marriage because that is between 2 people. I fear that if I further provocate her it will be easy for the authorities to 'prove' abusive behaviour or at the very least harassment. e.g. she has told me that she wants a divorce and she has started the legal process. There is nothing stopping her from having an affair and in the eyes of the law since she has informed me she no longer wants to be in a relationship with me and started the legal process to action that (even at a slow pace) any attempt of me to involve myself in her personal matters (religiously right or wrong) could be seen as slander and harassment, especially since any evidence I would have would be from personal private emails between her and OM (albeit old now).

JADEing regardless of whether or not directly to her or via the church is counterproductive, we know that, as her reality is not based on a foundation of facts. Each time I have done this to 'save' our marriage and 'show' her the error of her ways it has further pushed her towards OM and reinforced their perception that "people don't get it". As we know, regardless of insurmountable evidence, people with BPD and NPD (maybe applicable to OM) will reject what evidence points to. She has to find out the error of her ways on her own. Where I can control that is by not allowing her to escape via enabling her delusion (OM can do that and she will find out he is wrong). Not enabling her delusion comes in the form of not giving her what she feels she is entitled to which isn't reasonable (despite tantrums), not providing her with an excuse not to look at her own behaviour (being as emotionally chaotic as her in response to her), not rescuing her from situations with the kids that she creates, not standing in the way of the legal process of divorce, not allowing her to take a "Mummy and Daddy don't love each other" line with the kids when we tell them, not making grotesque promises about financial or practical support when we get divorced. I'm not sugar coating it in the slightest for her.

Her downside to irrational behaviour is very limited, mine is very high, she knows that. I feel some big educated F, limited O and no G. I'm playing smart... .I wasn't for 19 years.

There is a weird, intense bond that happens between npd and BPD people - even without sexuality being involved. Also, men with narcissistic tendencies tend to be seen in higher than proportionate numbers in church leadership contexts.

It is very, very difficult to get people to admit the truth, and even if they admit it, they may not be willing to do anything about it. Sometimes, the web of lies is so thick that the truth is confusing and gets rejected. I know because I have been trying to speak truth into a web.

My h was involved in church leadership (he was clergy) and was serving under a rector who had some strong npd tendencies. They fed off of each other; I could see it, but others didn't seem to notice. Others were being told lies about me. I was told to worship somewhere else if what was going on at their church wasn't okay with me; I did. Then, they had to come up with lies to tell people about why I wasn't there.

Oh, h has lied and complained about me and my boundaries to his family who haven't really talked with me since much of this started.

For my part, I kind of knew that eventually h's instability would become apparent. I like to think of it as "stable instability". It did show itself again about 5 months ago when his church situation blew up. I also knew that keeping a safe distance was most likely the best course of action since it seemed to be the only one available to me.

I would encourage you to document the objective reality of what it going on during this time.

Do you have another church that you could attend?

Empath,

The "things going on" at the church that you were invited to go somewhere else... .if you didn't like them... .were they clear Biblical matters of sin (such as adultery... .I'm not aware of any way around that) or did they fall into "debatable" areas (I don't know... such as full immersion versus sprinkling versus role of women)

On the debatable issues I certainly have my own opinion but I completely acknowledge there are scriptures that suggest either way is ok... In theory, Christians are supposed to "give grace" in those situations and are not supposed to try and "force" each other to change. Debatable issues really aren't appropriate for Matthew discipline process either.

Anyway... I'm curious.

FF

Empath, I attend another church, a church that I do not believe this situation would have evolved in. We were married in the church and my wife attended a great home group there (she has always been more active in the church and involved in church life). The home group was a good grounding for W and she still seeks guidance from the group. They have consistently said to cease any relationship with OM although they understood it to be just a friendship. She is intentionally frugal with the bits that might appear to make her sound guilty (for obvious reasons). She decided unilaterally to change churches due to the children having friends at the other church (namely OMs 2 kids) and I did not want to change churches due to new church being a very conservative CofE church. The new church doesn’t have any interest in seeing the truth and it’s pretty evident that neither does our local community, many of which tell me they ‘know’ nothing is going on between W and OM... .and refute any suggestion that I may have seen evidence to the contrary.

FF, I hear you, I really do. I feel I have done what the bible and my conscience tells me to. I am not a strong Christian and as I have mentioned before re my father I have felt let down by gods promises and confusing messages before. God needs to do something, it’s in his hands, I will be patient and trust he will help me but it’s out of my hands. Every time I try and do anything similar to what you suggest it fails. It’s over to you god.

Excerpt

FF, the things that were happening were clear Biblical matters of sin; I have grace for the "debatable" areas as well. I wouldn't have brought the issues up if they were preferences. When I've described what was happening to other Christian leaders, they are shocked that something wasn't done.

Enabler, I'm glad that you are at another church that seems reasonable and willing to take a stand. When I needed to find a different church, I went back to our former church that wasn't going to endorse what h was doing in our family life, and h wasn't going to attend there for the same reason. H's (former?) church wasn't interested in doing anything about the truth until they had to do something because the situation had gotten very bad and there were some serious consequences. The church believed that their leaders were going to bring them back to their glory days.

Quote from: empath on July 15, 2018, 02:46:30 AM

Did you put it in writing... and did they respond in writing? Did it keep going up the "chain of command" so far?

Did the entire church body hear the matter?

I'm curious... because I'm curious. I've also stirred the pot some going "outside" the church I currently attend, to bring visibility to some things that are unethical (by their own written standards).

I'm going to be curious... .interested in where it goes.

FF

Quote from: Red5 on July 15, 2018, 11:11:27 AM

I hope that you have a wonderful day, hang tough Enabler, we are all here for you

So it’s been scortchio here in many respects here today, in fact the temp in Enabler towers seems to be at nuclear level and has been for a couple of weeks now. Friday night started the fun with a social event in the village tainted by a death of an alcoholic husband of one of the popular village mums. W was upset and so my guess is that she contacts OM. I find them out the front of the pub on their own having a heart to heart, looked very private. I had planned to leave anyway and was actually attempting to find her to let her know I was going home. I spoke with appropriate abruptness and then proceeded to vent walking back through the pub. W confronts me “why are you doing this enabler?” “I’m allowed to be upset, the man is a @@@@, you know what I know and I think it’s acceptable to be angry and upset. I’m going home.”

Yesterday and today she has been spitting venom, silently of course.

I am sitting in the garden, it is late for under 10’s to be going to bed and there’s a whole host of dysregulating people. Some whom you might expect to be because they are too young to control their emotions, and one adult.

Yet I’m sure it’s all my fault some way or other.

Red... .pray harder, your prayers are ALWAYS appreciated.

Oh... .took D9 & D8 to the old church today and they liked it a lot. W made it clear there was no moving back though.

Old Church - Church where we married, progressive Church of England Church, reasonable youth population, multiple congregations

W's New Church/Local Church - VERY conservative 10th century village Church of England Church. Our kids are pretty much the youth ministry, predominantly old people. W believes it is her calling to transform into a similar church to 'Old Church'. Kinda an odd church when every event seems to come hand in hand with a drink in the local pub... .not something I am used to being raised in a Baptist church.

W decided to stop going to old church because our kids were reluctant to go to the youth groups because they had no friends there... .they enjoyed it when they were there but it was always pitched as optional and running battles ensued. OM's kids went to 'New Church' so they were happier to go to Sunday School there. I felt no religious enthusiasm for 'New Church' and since W was more into Church than me she felt like she 'knew' and I didn't and made her own unilateral decision. I think she retrospectively generated the idea that it was her calling. W has done some good things at the new church but nothing has gained it's own momentum due to the lack of youthful bodies... .I also wonder if the fact that it's pretty common knowledge that her and OM are having an inappropriate relationship is a bit of a barrier to new people attending as they think "hypocrites"... .I certainly know some do.

Do they go to the same church?

A friend of mine once described churches as “a golf club for non-golfers” it’s such a shame but many many churches are just that. You have the leaders who are power hungry monkeys who like the sound of their own voice and prove their “vision” by pushing through their grand ideas to build their Tower of Babel. Then you have the people who make the tea and coffee and they’re painful in need of something to organise and gain a sense of significance... .I could go on and on. It’s harsh and judgemental, and I guess we all need some sort of motivation, but it’s a shame that true altruism is few and far between in a lot of church institutions. I love those small churches in a shed, they feel very genuine. We judge the ‘success’ of a church on its size and youthfulness rather than whether it meets the spiritual needs of the congregation.

Xx

Enabler

Hi Enabler - I have been following this thread with interest but little time to post on it lately, sorry!

Your W's new old church sounds very much like our local parish church before the new vicar came. The Catholic church is also a surprisingly good place to hide out - if you don't actively take your own sins to Confession, you can just go ahead and keep them to yourself. I think the system probably works with people with more developed consciences, and/or people who are genuinely concerned about ending up in Hell or Purgatory due to some unconfessed sin, but the latter tend to be in the older generation (I have met some). I have taught my D "once saved, always saved". If you don't have any internally or externally generated fears and can justify your behavior, you are quite free to turn up at Mass and say the words and never be called out. There are also no home groups (and few Bible studies) - you say the group gave your W correct advice which she is ignoring. I'd love a home group to participate in.

Praying for God to act on this for you soon! Psalm 10 is a good one:

Arise, Lord! Lift up your hand, O God.
Do not forget the helpless.
Why does the wicked man revile God?
Why does he say to himself,
“He won’t call me to account”?
But you, God, see the trouble of the afflicted;
you consider their grief and take it in hand.

BetterLanes x

Thank you Betterlanes that's a lovely verse and very pertinent. I went to an ecumenical school which crossed the boundaries of Catholic, CofE and Free churches. I know what you mean about the Catholic structure. Sometimes it seemed more like symbolic ethnicity rather than meaningful faith.

My W and her OM sought counsel from 5 different religious groups/wise people. They prepared for it from what I could see on my snooping with OM he tried to primer her as to what to say:

"the important thing for tonight is about the overpowering and unbreachable need for support that we've given each other, I don't expect your group to buy that though because it has just complicated things for you. Let me know what they say and we'll have to plan a workable recession in the contact I guess, but not sudden, that doesn't seem to work. We both must be stronger than ever in our lives to do it, it's a pity that friendship should have to yield to such pressure but nobody else seems to get it like we do."

They kicked themselves when these interactions didn't come away with a validating response of "it's okay" or "that's God working in you both". But whatever was said, however vehemently the relationship was rejected as inappropriate... .they continued unabated.

To give you a feel of my W thoughts, they both read a daily email from a popular London Church, they believed it was Gods way of talking to them. They believed they were special... .and arguably different rules applied to them:

"Psalm 91:9-16
To me, those were the words you were giving me during our phone call. I needed you to speak that to me, to reassure me, at my time of real fear. It worked and I was so immensely grateful to have you on the other end of the phone. And here I am now, this morning, reading it.

Corinthians 2:6-16
It feels like I am reading about my experience last night. Boy was His Spirit in me! The whole spiritual experience, plane, extraordinary, God's Spirit and mine in open communion. Christ knows and we have Christ's Spirit. My comment about me not knowing what was going on, what I was fighting, but not needing to know because His Spirit knows. It's all in there in these passages.

And then... .

• This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words’ (2:13).

This to me, this is what happened when I was talking in tongues last night.

The below also explains why OM's W and Enabler cannot fathom it. Simply because they do not yet have His Spirit. As it was with me, it is the only thing that brings true understanding. "

Yes, very very much so. That's what he does. It's his cloak of respectability.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

1 Peter 5:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

See the thing is my W searches out people who validate the bad/ immoral/ disrespectful/ inconsiderate/ impulsive things she does. She searches out people who validate her delusional thought (which then leads to paranoia), OM is just this type of guy.

A long standing friend said to me a 18m ago... ."Oh Enabler, EnablerW doesn't speak to me about these kinds of things, because she knows she wont get the answer she likes." Which really sums it up. I can track the rollercoaster of our relationship based on the people she was associating herself with.

Excerpt

Notwendy wrote: I don't understand what OM is saying. It sounds like he's making up stuff... .Is OM sugar coating what he wants in religious phrases?

Excerpt

Enabler replies: Yes, very very much so. That's what he does. It's his cloak of respectability.

Oh' Man!

I have to add, the scripture is VERY explicit about anyone who attempts to use the word of the Good Lord, the actual verses of scripture to bad (evil) ends, .yes "very", .and wow !

That's "whole affair" is not going to go over very well with the Good Lord... .and'... .to use the scripture to validate it... .wow red-flag !

Jude 1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and LORD.

2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Revelation 22:18-19 18;I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19;And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Woe be tide to "OM"... .hmmm,

Red5

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting => Topic started by: Enabler on July 09, 2018, 08:28:17 AM