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A new issue has reared it's ugly head.  Today, our youngest started playing in the sink.  He tried to fill his fire truck up with water and carrying it around.  I told him no, tried to take the toy away.  Ended up with him hollering and hitting the toy loudly against the sink.  Woke up my bph which caused him to yell for him to shut up and then proceed to berate me about how I can't control our child and how I am doing it on purpose.

Fast forward to him flying off the handle about how everyone is a bunch of @ssholes, etc.  He was hollering and threatening.  I was being quiet by being side blinded so he goaded me.  Telling me to go ahead and get angry, get my attitude, tell him that I want to leave again, yell and hit him, cause he was ready, ready to brawl, that he was ready to blow up... Egging me, saying come on.  All the while yelling.

Anyways, we had a long chat.  He was really spiteful, seething with anger, telling me that he could make my life bad since I want to play the victim.  How he was tired of being the boogie man I make him out to be and throwing it back in my face when I asked him if it ever occurred to him that he broke me.  I said it when I was pretty mad.  I mentioned we both agreed that we have said some pretty mean things when we got mad.  Told me it didn't matter, I said it (double standard).

It's moments like this I want to tell him if I am so horrible to go call his gf he would rather go out drinking with then be with me.  Oh and I have become more ballsy apparently.  Like... Excuse me for believing that you are going to put your hands on my neck anymore.

By all rights, if I left him, I would be justified for all the physical, emotional, and verbal abuse he has put me through.  Today, I am extremely pissed off to where I want to tell him to go be alone like he seems to want to be.

Help... I need some self soothing tips.

Okay... .so... Wtf.  He called and apologized.  Said I did nothing wrong, he doesn't know why he is like that today, that he has calmed down.

Seriously had him just totally blow his $hit on me, basically tell me how a horrible, disloyal human being I am... And now... Baby, I am sorry... You did nothing wrong, it's me.  

Like a gawd damn tornado that comes back to apologize for destroying my house.

Can you take a walk... .go to the park with your kid?

 

I am mobile... .will check in on you later.  Be kind to yourself.

FF

So your H blamed you for your child waking him up and then he got started trying to trigger you into replying in an angry way. It sounds like you had a lot of self control, but would have liked to rip him a new one.

Now, some hours later, how do you feel? And how do you feel about how you responded to him?

I feel okay with how I responded.  It was clear that he was in a way with his anger that me trying to reason with him, pacify him, or even try to calm him down was pointless.  Better let him hang himself.  I am still upset with him.  He pulled the crap on Sunday, ruined our outing Monday, and now today, he blows his gasket.  I have done nothing wrong to deserve any of it and I think he's an a$$hole for his behavior last few days.

I'm not going to play victim though or join his little "I keep messing things up" parade he has going for himself.  I'm keeping my mind straight because if I do that, I have nothing to say I'm sorry for.  He's the one acting like a jerk and me not blowing up on him, gave him no ammunition to blame me for anything.

Still a little upset if anyone can tell.

You did great, Frankee!  |iiii  You kept your cool and didn't get rattled. You saw when he started to dysregulate and realized that JADEing was useless, and didn't try and calm him down. Good work.

Of course you're upset. He made it very unpleasant to be around him.

Did he apologize to the child?

I'm thinking, since this is a "new" you, that you need to sleep on this and then find a good time to chat with him about it tomorrow. 

You DO need to tell him you appreciate his apology... .I suggest after that you ask to hear his thoughts about what can make next time better.

Still thinking about this some... .

Thoughts?


FF

He hasn't apologized to the chld.  He's said on more than one occasion he doesn't like the "new" me.  Mostly when I don't take his bs like I use to.  Once I was able to mentally recover from his explosion, we had that chat.

I get so dang mad that he throws me into a lose-lose situation like that.  He gets mad because I am being quiet, but when I talk in a calm manner, he blows up saying he doesn't care, he thinks I am lying, etc.  I even had to bite my tongue at one point from saying something really nasty.  He yelled that I wasn't doing what "I know" would help calm him down, which is to hug him and tell him everything would be okay.  Didn't really feel like hugging the person that was calling me an @$$hole, disloyal piece of crap, who caused him to start yelling.

Just to make sure:  He is trying "to get the old you back".  Sort of an "extinction burst".

How old is the child?

Have you said you accept his apology?  Has there been a discussion about the future, how to avoid these things?

My big picture:  His outbursts should result in more of what he doesn't want.  Times when he is reasonable should give him more of "good Frankee".

This will take time... .but I would take this as a "badge of honor" for you.

FF

Morning Frankee,

I have been known to have a rant when I'm woken up by the kids so I'll not stand on any soapboxes.

3 observations:

Well done on cementing the new you in yet another incident, soon it will be just you rather than 'new' you.  |iiii sounds like you have reasoned with yourself as to why you shouldn't bring yourself down to his emotional level and appropriately detached your emotional volatility from his. Top work.

One response to him goading you would be "Why would I do that?". He wants you to join the angry party, he likes a fight, you're not giving him that 2 way fight... .it's just him shadow boxing. Don't wrestle with pigs, you get muddy and they love it.

Apologies are a difficult one... .I read a piece recently which was very thought provoking (annoyingly can't find it on web search). It basically says that you shouldn't accept an apology but acknowledge the apology. An apology is in essence for express benefit of the person who has something they wish to say sorry for. Asking you to accept their apology exonerates them from guilt and puts the onus on you to forgive them. This is a way of shifting responsibility from them to you. Actually, responsibility should sit with the offender to SHOW that they are sorry, make amends and be ACCOUNTABLE (accountability being a combination of taking responsibility and making amends be compensating and amending their behavior). If I had a choice between my wife's words of apology or her showing me in her actions that she wanted to make some meaningful changes in her behaviour, I would take the latter every day. My response to his apology would be, "I acknowledge your apology, what are you going to do about it (applicable to me and kid)?", then no further comment.

Enabler

Reconciliation can have some religious connotations, yet I think it is applicable across all types of relationships.

Apology is an expression of sorrow

Asking for forgiveness is a "step up" from apology
 
Granting forgiveness essentially means that the "wronged person" will no long seek "redress"or "punishment" towards the offender.

Reconciliation:  Generally takes both parties (wronged and the wrong doer) to actively take steps to "bring the relationship back together again"... .this is a step up from granting forgiveness.

What I have said to my wife on some issues is that she is forgiven, yet the relationship remains reconciled and that I'm open to working on reconciliation.

Here is the thing, that is perhaps particular to the "conflicted" board.  :)o we want to reconcile?  

It is entirely possible to grant forgiveness, yet express that you don't want to reconcile and move on with your life.

Frankee... .I would sort through these concepts in your head and "encourage" your husband (leave door open for him to keep "upgrading"... .but I wouldn't "demand" it... .very different than letting him know what you expect.

The hard part... .is that they will "feel shamed" and not want to.  Let them connect the dots on that.  The shame is NOT the reconciliation... it's the actions prior to... . If they don't want shame... .don't do the actions.  

Don't save them from that uncomfortable truth.

FF

I have been trying to practice this.  Since I came back in February, I will admit that I have acted unfavorable and at times, pretty nasty.  Think I went through a period where I had a lot of rage and resentment built up that was showing itself in a few of our fights.  I did smack him a couple times.  Even beat on his arm until it was sore when we had a pretty nasty fight in the car.  Have even gone off the rails and gone like crazy psycho on him.  Again, not moments I am proud of or want to do again.

I'm working on being more grounded again.  I do want to reconcile and move forward.  There are still times where I doubt if I still want this.  I try to be honest about my feelings or things I have doubts on, but they still seem to be popping up. 

A few weeks back I talked to him and said I wasn't sure if I wanted anymore kids.  At the time I was thinking seriously of calling it quits for good.  If he wanted more kids and I didn't, I don't want him resenting me for him not having anymore.  His feelings is that people have kids when they love each other and shows they want to stay together.   All we do is fight about the kids we have now and I am so sick of it.  Now, when gets mad (like yesterday), he throws it in my face that I am making him choose between me and future kids, how he's pissed off that he can't have anymore, how I am holding him hostage because we already have the one together and it isn't fair I get my two when he maybe wanted one more. 

That may end up being a deal breaker in itself.

Hey... .Frankee.  That was very considerate of you to put his potential feelings first about kids.  However, given the "temperature" of the r/s... I'm not sure it was wise for either of you.

Figuring out how to not wail on each other and whether or not to have more kids really aren't thoughts that go together (IMO)

Step 1.  Reduce temp... .stop destructive behaviors... .let the r/s develop for a while.  Then have "hear to heart". 

I'm guessing if you can get 6 months of "calm" (again... likely relative)... .then perhaps bring it up again.

Thoughts?

FF

What would your relationship need to be like if you did want to have another child with him? If you were to discuss your needs for this, how do you think he would receive it? And how do you think he would be able to comply with such an agreement?

It sounds like you've been able to work past your resentment and anger and get to a very strong place where you're now able to hold your center even when he's being exceptionally difficult.  |iiii

What about the relationship and his commitment do you doubt?

As your arguments tend to revolve around the children you already have, you are wise to be thinking deeply about this.

ditto!

Some of my doubts are if I even really love him enough to have another child.  I don't feel our relationship would survive another child.  It is something I have put on the back burner, but is still in my mind. 

Nowhere in any of my future plans, does iy include having to take care of another baby by myself.

When our youngest was very little, he got to do whatever he wanted and I was always left holding the screaming baby with a dirty diaper.  That's another reason.  I don't trust him that he would be any different the next time.

I would like to know that he will help more.  Knowing that he won't run off all the time and leave me to deal with the baby.  Not having another child be something else to argue over.  Feeling safe that I can trust him to let me be honest about all my feelings without it being thrown in my face when we fight.

The blow up he had yesterday was just a reminder of how unstable and emotionally unbalanced our relationship is.  I struggle to hold it together some days and on those days, I still think about just leaving him and being done with all of it.

So you're not sure you love him enough to have another baby with him and you remember how little he helped you with the last baby. He's shown a pattern of running off to do whatever he wanted and leaving you with the responsibility of taking care of the kids. And you don't feel safe about being able to disclose your feelings without him turning it back on you.

It's good that you are looking deep within about this relationship and assessing how it might play out in the future.  |iiii

Frankee,

I think you have your answer about children.  You "know" the answer.

OK... so I have 8 kids.  She was pregnant with number 7 when some of the first symptoms of BPD started to appear (after a natural disaster). 

We waited a couple years and during of the "good phases" where I thought "things were fixed" (I hadn't read SWOE or heard of BPD) we got pregnant with number 8.  It was intentional that we were ok with another child and she was pregnant soon after.

Pregnancy made things better and then the cycle down and up after number 8 was born is about the time I discovered SWOE and BPD. 

Not long after that... .I "knew" that having another child was unwise.  My wife has arrived at that conclusion as well and we've taken steps to make sure there are no more.

I obviously like kids... .working through this was/is part of the RA of what it means to be in a r/s with a pwBPD.

   

FF

Cross post with Cat.

In your case, it seems that he was not helpful with parenting.
 
I love having a little baby around and honestly, my wife and I were good with that part.  I would change a diaper get the kid ready and then hand over to Mom for breast feeding.  Usually then bring Mom something while she was feeding.

So... .you've got practicalities to think about, in addition to the stress on your romantic relationship.

FF

I appreciate all the insight on everything.  There are just reminders here and there that are enough to reassure my feelings.  

Even this morning.  Some events unfolded that I had no control over that caused my H to be woken up.  I had to go to the store.  I don't go every morning.  I told him and he blew up.  Going on about how I am wasting gas, blowing through his money he is trying to save for us, what could I possibly need from the store?  Told him stuff to make dinner and drinks.  He carried on about how I go every morning so who am I meeting?  I must be going off to bang somebody, who am I banging?  I just sighed and said nevermind.

Grocery store is about 5 minutes away.  I don't go every day.  We have a smaller fridge that doesn't hold a lot.  I enjoy the short little drive to get out of the house since I stay at home.  I take the youngest because he is the nosiest in the mornings and helps relieve some stress.   None of this matters to him.  

It is such a double standard with him.  He's the one who went off drinking with some chick, he's the one who gets to leave whenever he wants, he gets to take a break from the kids, he gets to go to the beach by himself.  I wouldn't mind any of this, but he's insecure, he doesn't want to watch the kids more than 5 minutes, if I want to go anywhere, I have to take at least the youngest.  Yet I am the one that puts the double standard on him.  We are going to counseling on Monday.  Should be interesting.

It sounds like he gets cranky in the morning. Do you think this is related to drinking or drug usage? Or maybe he doesn't sleep well?

So you're going about your responsibilities of getting dinner preparations and taking the youngest so that your H won't be disturbed.

You give your H the latitude to go off by himself and do things he wants to do, but he doesn't extend that courtesy to you and instead accuses you of wasting money and infidelity.

What sort of issues would you like to discuss in counseling? How about sharing this with us so we can help you phrase things to make them less triggering for your H?

I would like to bring up the whole money issue for one.  He spent that money Sunday and then wants to complain about me going to the grocery store too much.

He's just a bear in the mornings majority of the time.  He has night terrors sometimes and has trouble sleeping.  

I have been going back and forth about the whole fidelity thing. It's all his insecurities, knowing I can do better.  I caught my ex in the act of cheating once.  I don't throw that in his face because he didn't do it.  Honestly, I think actual cheating would be the end to all end.  I have let so much slide on his thing with women.  Gaslighting like a MF'er.  

What's even more messed up is how he talks about women.  When he gets on a tangent, he talks about how disloyal we all are, how we all jump ship when things get tough, how we all just have kids and break families up.  This is all him again.  His experiences, his mother issues, his insecurities.  I grew up with parents who have a normal and healthy relationship, majority of my friends are still married to their first husbands and have kids by that one man.  

He talks about his trust and bs issues with women, but loves when they give him attention, threatens to cheat, goes to hang out with them, stores their crap so this woman can stay in a shelter after losing her kids... .I can't be the only one who sees the irony of all of this.

It sounds like you're really seeing the incongruity between how he behaves and what he expects from you.

So how do you think he'd respond if you trash talked men, loved getting attention from them, threatened to cheat or hung out with men he didn't know.
Not good, huh?

He tells you that you're a party pooper who won't let him have fun, yet he's doing lots of things that make you uncomfortable.

How do you feel about being aware of this and how does that bode for the future with him?

I use to buy all this bs behavior, not so much now.  Ever since I have come back, I have felt different.  I am trying to figure out the routes I want to take.

I gave myself a pat on the back today, after the nonsense he pulled this morning.  I thought about how I wanted to handle the current issue.  I wanted to call him and chew him out about the mystery woman on Sunday and say, what about that.  Accusing me of being unfaithful when you are the one drinking with some chick and then agreeing to pack up our truck with some chick's stuff and asking after the fact and then ruining our outing Monday.  I decided I wasn't going to.  I already moved past it and I wasn't going to sink to his level of insecurity.  I called him back and did the emotional validation.  I had to read on it before figuring out what I wanted to say. 

I had to  realize that validating an emotion does not mean that I agree with the other person, or that you think their emotional response is warranted. Rather to communicate to them that I understand what they are feeling, without trying to talk them out of the feeling or shame them for the feeling.

The only real thing I am holding onto is that is see he has changed.  He's not nearly as bad as he use to be and he actually apologizes for his behavior when he knows he is in the wrong.  There are still things like this that we are trying to work through.

Good work, Frankee! |iiii

It takes a lot of self-discipline to validate when another part of us wants to get down in the mud with them. At those times, when I'm tempted to shoot my mouth off, I remember words of wisdom from another member, Grey Kitty, who says, "No good will come of this."

It's great that he apologizes when he sees he's been in the wrong. And I'm sure it's because you've changed your behavior! Good work!  |iiii

Thank you!   


Think I need to engrave this in my skull.  He's been doing a lot of instigating this week.  This has been a rough week honestly.  Last night he snapped at me about how he says the house is a sty.  He's acting all high and mighty because he's working hard and the house makes it seem like I sit on my a$$ all day and acting like fat and lazy people.  Even complained about the whole store thing.  Because there wasn't a lot of cinnamon toast crunch.    Told me to go to the store yesterday (the day he carried on about me wasting gas and cheating on him. 

I've been thinking about the counseling thing.  I am wondering if I should talk to him the night before about things I want to discuss.  Money issue, the fun sucker thing, the being a stay at home mom, how he thinks I am lazy and stuff when even he said he doesn't know if he can do it.  I admit there are days I slack.  Mostly the days when the boys won't stop fighting or screaming or getting into every little thing.  I've seen him on his days off where they get on his nerves and he tells me he needs to get out of the house.  Another double standard nonsense.

So tough when you’re dealing with three unruly boys!

You definitely need time to recharge your batteries. So if the house isn’t perfectly clean, so what!

I’m divided upon whether or not to give him a preview of what you want to talk about in counseling. If he’s in a good mood, maybe.

You don’t want to dump a whole load of stuff at once, so which issue is the most pressing in your mind?

If he already doesn’t “fight fair” you might wait until you have the counselor to keep things on the rails.

Whatever you choose to do, it’s a good sign that he’s willing to go with you.

Sometimes I try to think of him as one of the kids throwing a fit.  He's just meaner about things. 

I can definitely say if this morning is a tell tale sign of the rest of the day, I'm not going to talk to him about anything.  Neighbors woke him up with their lawnmower early as cr@p.  I could clearly see if he was in a bad mood, so I was being aware of things occurring.  The thing that made him blow up, say this was the thing that was going to pi$$ him off, and storm out?  Because I hadn't put soda in the fridge.  Seriously. 

Is anyone else aware of this nonsense?  They are stewing in a bad mood and some stupid thing that they think we "messed up", they use that to word vomit their bad mood on us and take it out on us?  Either he will apologize or he will use this incident to justify all other "wrong doings". 

I cleaned the house yesterday.  I started to prove a point, then ended up doing it because I actually got motivated. 

Anyways, I let him go.  I didn't try to stop him and I'm not going to call him.  He was being a jerk and I didn't deserve the way he acted towards me.

You are really getting the hang of this Frankee!  |iiii It's not fun, not fair, but it does defuse things and can make our lives much more tolerable.

It seems he has a pattern of getting dysregulated when he's woken up early. Not a lot you can do about that considering you have young boys and you cannot control exterior noise such as lawn mowing.

What this tells me is that his sleep hygiene is not so good. IDK, but I would bet lots of pwBPD are running on empty regarding good sleep. The latest research on sleep deprivation shows that even mild sleep deprivation as a regular pattern (such as 5-6 hours a night) can produce mood swings and be as debilitating as being legally intoxicated--regarding driving and other tasks that require full attention. Lots of people say they get by on little sleep, but the data says those folks are a true rarity.

Alcohol and coffee further contribute to poor quality of sleep and inability to fall asleep if they're consumed in the late afternoon or evening. And who drinks alcohol in the morning? That indicates other issues. So if not enough good quality sleep impacts emotionally healthy people in ways that undermines good intellectual functioning as well as emotional regulation--you can imagine how it affects people who already have problems with emotional regulation.

My husband used to stay up regularly until 2 or 3 in the morning then complain about not being able to sleep well. I tried to talk him into having a regular bedtime. You know how JADE works! 

So what I started doing was to go to bed every night by 10:30. Having a good night of sleep certainly gave me a lot more emotional resources to deal with him. And to my surprise, he's started to go to bed earlier on a regular basis too.

Yes, any excuse--even the flimsiest such as no cold sodas--is good enough for a pwBPD when they need to blame someone else for their bad mood.

It all finally came to a point.  He fnally had it and tried to blame me for not doing the one thing he asked me to do when he gets angry.  Hug him.  Said that I could had easily calmed him down and I knew he had been mad last couple days and have done nothing about it.  I had to seriously take a moment to where I didn't completely lose my $hit with him.

All of it came out.  Told him I was really upset he keeps taking stuff out on me when I know his bad mood is not my fault.  Tried to tell me that I am his wife and of course he was going to take stuff out on me and I know there is a bigger issue than cold sodas or water.  I explained that I do usually know there is a bigger reason he is upset, but doesn't mean I am going to keep allowing him to talk to me the way he does and hug him and say every thing is going to be okay after he bellows at me about something small and stupid like friggin sodas.

It was a pretty bad fight.  A lot of issues were brought up than are still not resolved, but seem to be less intense.  At one point we were even discussing custody of the kids and taking stuff to court.  I actually got so tired of everything and over the past week, just compounded negative emotions.  It finally ended with me telling him that I was even entertaining leaving again because I was so flippin mad.  He seemed okay with me saying it because I was just so mad and frustrated.

Think I learned to not let things built up.  This last week was rough and I was aware of more things happening, but not really sure how to handle everything going on.  If a simple hug and everything is going to be okay is all it takes next time he whines about nothing cold to drink, I guess I'll do it.

Sometimes it feels good to clear the air, as though you've actually had a good clear out of grievances. He's given you something he feels would be a solution, something that he feels in hindsight was all that he actually wanted. In reality my guess is that this wouldn't have worked and in his state of dysregulation a hug would have just felt invalidating to him and likely escalated the argument even further. The problem for you is working out at what point you can initiate operation "hug it out". I'm sure there is a time and actually it's very very common (based on the pwBPD that I have spoken with) for them to say "all I needed was a hug" but in reality it's like trying to hug a wasps nest.

The point of the tools is to allow the pwBPD to safely get their #&$% out of thier system, say their piece in a way that reduces the time they do it... .also in a manner that doesn't reward them for doing so. The time in the red zone is reduced and the time is the green zone is increased. Hugging in the red zone might be what they want internally, but my kids also want sweets when theyre throwing a tantrum... .and what message would I be giving them if I did that?  "I understand that you feel that a hug would have made you calm down, getting a hug when you feel hurt and upset is what most people want, but I don't want to hug you when you're talking to me disrespectfully, I feel threatened and unsafe. I want to hug you when I feel that you are calm and loving. Discussing your concerns in a calm way makes me feel connected with you, I want to feel connected with you."

The "clearing of the air" will be even more powerful if it is tied to consistent action on your part to avoid (boundaries) the behavior you don't want from him.

Is there any reason whatsoever for you to ever buy or stock the fridge with sodas for him?  Seriously... .let him solve that for himself.

And... .here is the "pop quiz".  I can think of a reason for you to buy sodas... .what would you guess that is?

FF

I'm certainly not an advocate of giving affection to someone who is behaving badly. That reinforces his bad behavior and leaves you feeling like an object whose purpose is to ignore your own feelings and soothe his.

I know this from experience. With my first husband, I'd often have sex with him when I was internally seething with anger--hoping to calm him down.

It's his responsibility to take care of his emotions, not yours. And that you're his wife does not entitle him to take his anger out on you for insignificant issues.

I'm glad you have a counseling appointment coming up. It was good that you both could clear the air and were able to talk about big issues. Counseling will certainly help with that.

Cat, Enabler, Flier... I agree with all of you.

I have pointed out to him that when he behaves in a way that is threatening or when he is taking stuff out on me, it acts as a repellent and I do not fell comfortable "just hugging him" when he's disrespecting me.  I tried to approach him at one point and he rejected me because he has to "beg" for it.  Point exactly.

I have brought up that I am not a fridge monitor.  I buy sodas and water because I want to have some also.

Counseling went really well Monday.  He opened up.  Even cried... A lot.  We talked about the fight.  He mentioned at one point that he knows I try and understands why I don't hug him at times.  He understands it is hard to just walk up to someone that is yelling at you and hug them.  That he has seen crazy people yelling and not making sense and you really can't do anything about it.

She asked if we could do a time out during these fights.  She asked him if I am this supportive at home as I am in in counseling.  He said when he gets to a certain point, he doesn't let me walk away.  That he knows I have tried to talk to him like this, but sometimes it doesn't work.  He gets this rage and he doesn't know where it comes from.

During our counseling, I went up to him and hugged him.  He was admitting to knowing that he gets so mad at me sometimes when he knows it's not my fault and that I am trying and he feels horrible.  All of this felt real.  The emotions and tears were far from fake.

When we left, we talked about the session.  I said it seemed like she didn't say much and we were the ones talking mostly.  He said, when we talk, it works a lot out.   That our marriage doesn't need counseling really, but he really needs individual.  I thought he was about to say he doesn't want to go, but he said he wants to keep going because he thinks it is good for us and it's nice to have a third person in the room to be a mediator.

If you have the money to do both individual and joint therapy that could be very very productive. Accepting that we all have sensitivities and working together to put those into practice in the real world could be very rewarding for you and your relationship with H... .if of course that's what you want.

One point is that he said he reaches a point where he can't walk away. I can empathise with this. Things get said and I feel hell bent on correcting the narrative with my W. The key for me has been sitting with the emotional anguish of walking away because now is not the right time, even though every sinew in my body wants to get my point across and sort it.

You can work on calling time on arguments before they reach this point. This may mean that things don't get resolved for a bit.

Excellent, Frankee!

You’re doing great and it’s wonderful that he has accepted responsibility for his behavior. It will take a while for him to remember this in the moment, but it’s a great first step. And that he’s open to counseling individually. |iiii

I agree with Enabler that it would be good to do both individual and couples therapy, but you might schedule more individual sessions and maybe a monthly couples session if finances are tight.

Luckily we got approved for counseling services for lower income families.  They may not be top notch counselors, but they are licensed and I actually had to be put on a wait list for them.

He may not think I need individual as much as him,  but I kind of do.  There are things that pop in my head that are still negative from past problems.  Things I have forgave him for (to some degree), but haven't forgotten.  I promised myself I wouldn't throw things in his face.  I don't want it done to me either.

Enabler, it does sound like him.  Most of the time I can sense when he's getting to that point of no return.  I try to remember the safe word, hasn't always worked, but I try.  He likes to just word vomit it all out when he gets like that.  Almost as if he will literally explode if he doesn't. 

I could go on and on about problems has, mental and physical.  He doesn't feel well in the mornings and we think he may have panic attacks that affects his left arm.  If we had full coverage insurance, I would make him go to a doctor.  His insurance covers a physical and I may have to insist he goes.  He hates doctors, but I am honestly worried that one day he will have a heart attack.

You've been through a lot, Frankee, especially in the last few months. I can see that those experiences, extremely difficult though they were, have helped you grow your compassion and understanding. It would be good for you have individual counseling too. It's great for everyone. No one gets through life unscathed--we all have issues to work out. You've made great progress on your own and doing counseling will give you another perspective on how much you've grown.  |iiii

To add to that, T's can also act as trainers for BPD. You can focus on situational training on how to deal with high conflict people. Regardless of your path these are skills you are likely to need to hone.

That would be really helpful.  He is definitely one of the high conflict.  When he gets mad, he goes for the throat.  Even today with a small inconvenience, turned into how I always ignore him, never do what he asks, how he works so hard and never gets what he wants around here.  Oh and how he'll quit his job and make us real uncomfortable so he can make sure he has everything he needs because nothing is going to change. (Another jab at me quitting my job and being a stay at home mom).

I remained calmed, looked at him when he was talking, didn't try to make excuses for the infraction he got mad about, didn't try to justify my actions.  I sit here and wonder if any of it made any difference.  He's still going to be mad.  He stormed off and is gone, just know that whole "hug" nonsense definitely did not apply to this situation.  Starting to wonder if that will really apply to any situation when he's barraging me with his word vomit.  It's like trying to hug a honey badger after you just poked it in the eyes.

Good work, holding your center, Frankee, in the midst of his meltdown!  |iiii

And why should you need to hug the honey badger? You didn't poke it in the eyes. He did that himself.

Frankee,

There is an interesting dynamic here that I don't often see.  Most of the time I leave conflict with my wife.  Seems many other people are the ones that leave.

Yet in your situation, you seem to have found a place of calm... .that eventually upsets him enough to leave and "deal with himself".

Very interesting to me

Have you ever left him?  

I take his actions as a good sign.  At some level he realizes he can't continue and removes himself.

Thoughts?

FF

You are right cat.  He's the one that poked his own eyes out.

I walked out on him once and led to me leaving for a month.  I've tried to leave before... Very bad.  He bugs the hell out.  He's the one that always leaves.  Sometimes he goes to sit in his car, sometimes he goes to the beach for awhile.  I'm usually just happy he is gone.  Only because things are getting out of hand and he gets to far gone.

I know I am the healthy one here.  There are so many things I can say and point out, but I have learned that fact pointing or how he is being a hypocrite does no good. 

I could easily point out him texting a woman in the middle of the night to drink as way more concrete evidence he would be the one cheating.  Since he likes to make up imaginary boyfriends I am always seeing or texting.  I'm better than that.  I know my worth and I refuse to sink to his level of insecurity. 

Hi Frankee -

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I was curious as to what the counselors said at the women's shelter about how your kids were doing? Is that why you left the shelter, because the kids were not adjusting?

Now that you all are back home, how are they adjusting now?

I read your posts with my fingers crossed every time because I am wishing you and your kids the best.

L

Regardless of who leaves the encounter, it’s good to get breathing room for both parties. It takes time for emotions to settle and for pwBPD, that’s especially true.

You’re doing great, Frankee, both for having the awareness that pointing out his hypocrisy is worse than useless, and having the self control not to do that.  |iiii  It took me many years to finally get to that point.

Wonderful that you keep validating yourself for being aware and secure in knowing who you are and what a valuable person you are. You are providing an excellent example for your boys as far as how to deal with difficult people.  |iiii

My oldest one was sad.  He kept saying when we go home.  He didn't like it there.  My bph making promises to change and begging for me to come home.  I was gone for a month and had time to reflect on a lot. 

I struggle still with the hugging thing.  He gets made when he has to "beg" for the one thing he asked me to do when he gets mad.  Keeps saying I will never do it etc etc.  I am sure I will eventually be more in tuned when I find I am escalating within myself to where I get so mad that I would rather throat punch him than hug him.  *Disclaimer*. I would never do that, just feel like it sometimes.

I know it's not too much he is asking his wife to hug and comfort him, but with him and his word vomit, it is still a work in progress.

Hey Frankee,

     Please be kind to yourself and your feelings.

The hugs are really important to him... .let's use that to your advantage.

Will he go to any kind of T with you?  Will he have short conversations with you about how things go when he is dysregulated?

Couple things:  When he is having a tough time and asks for  a hug... .give it... spend time with him.

When he starts with word vomit... .the hugs go away. 

Done consistently, this may cut the behavior somewhat.  Focus your talks on how he can get hugs... .stay away from much talk about how he "looses" hugs.

He'll connect the dots.

How do you think that conversation will go?



FF

Well... I tried this morning.  I could tell he was in a grumpy mood.

He was fine going off to work. Then he calls.  Some noise with the truck.  I knew nothing about. He asks me if I knew about the sound.  I told him the truth.  He didn't believe me.  Kept trying to get me to confess that I knew about the noise and I just forgot to tell him.

He came unglued. Insisted I was lying, said I had no problem lying before.  Asked why couldn't I have lied to make him feel better.  Sat there dumbfounded.  I was like, you don't want me to lie to you, but you want me to lie to you now to make you feel better... but you get mad when I lie to you.  It's a double standard and when I said something, he comes back with I lied so much in the past that it's hard to believe me.

He blames me for starting a fight.  Because I wouldn't lie to him.  He wanted me to say a certain thing.  It just goes back to him holding a box and if what I say doesn't fit, he's set on getting me to say what does.

He said some things that I didn't let slide, I couldn't.  He was being a straigt up a$$.  I did yell a couple times and tell him he was being an a$$hole.

I had every right to get upset.  I had every right to feel the way I did.  I did my part though.  I held my $hit back together.

   

Frankee

Going forward... .I think after one instance of him disagreeing with your version... you end the conversation.

How many times did you guys go round and round about this?

What do you think you would say to him, while disengaging.

FF

Frankee,
What I remember from some months ago is that he accused you of lying when you didn’t tell him some details about something in order that he not get upset. I think it was something inconsequential like your son not having clean pants for school.

When he found out, he was furious and accused you of lying. Certainly it was not “lying” by any consensually accepted standard—omission, yes, but not lying.

He seems to have a real trigger about lying, which makes me wonder about his own relationship with the truth.

So now he wants you to lie to him that you’ve heard the noise the truck makes in order to make him feel better?  SMH   

He wants you to hug him when he’s being a jerk and lie to him to make him feel better, yet he cruelly berates you if you omit telling him something and calls you a liar.

If you’re doing couples counseling, this would be a good topic to bring up. You might start writing a list of things like this for your own next therapy session. It’s hard to make sense out of the nonsensical.

Like formflier says, your best move is to exit the conversation ASAP.

Cake and eat it

Don’t lie to me because it hurts when I find out you’re untrustworthy, don’t tell me the truth because it hurts when I hear it. Either way I’ve decided already what the truth is and I’ve had to because people have lied to me my whole life.

I don’t want you to like me, but hug me like you do and hug me like I deserve it. Hug me like a parent hugs a child... .unconditionally.

I punched you because I loved you

I was unfaithful because you didn’t love me enough

I am not in control of me, other peoples actions are... .  sure there’s something in the 20 rules of BPD about that.

I definitely went more than once.  A few times until I could plainly see there was no way he would believe me.  I tried to disengage by telling him there was nothing else to say.  He asked a question, I gave him my answer.

He gets mad I "lied" so much in the past.  When I try to do better, but it doesn't make him feel better, he gets mad.

Once I settled down, I saw right through all of it.  I did absolutely nothing wrong.  I don't care if he believes me or not.  I told the truth and I had ever right to get upset when he screaming to shut my lying mouth.

Enabler made good points.  It didn't matter if I tried to soothe him before he left, I didn't "love" him enough to put up with him screaming at me for lying about something I wasn't because he was in a bad way. 

Told me I was a horrible wife and he wanted a more compassionate woman.  I told him I am a wonderful woman and I do not deserve to be talked like that and he was being a f*ing @$$hole right now.  That last part slipped out cause I had smoke coming out my ears.  He apologized, but it doesn't change how I feel.

I'm wondering if you "inserted time" between the question and the answer... .perhaps even offering a hug while you "consider his question" would be wise.


On the phone... perhaps you can consider it and talk about it later... .in person.

Important questions shouldn't get snap judgments.

A big picture to try and take on... .I try to never go "round and round" twice... and if I make it to three times... I feel it's a failure.  Personally... .I'll consider one question... .and try to give a solid answer.  On the second "round" when it's obviously repetitive... I'm "100%" going for tools of some sort.

How often does your husband ask your stuff like this... .and it's a "legitimate" question.  In my r/s... it's often enough that I need to give her one chance.

FF

 

We were on the phone.  He asked me to question, I gave him a plain straightforward reply.  Was taken off guard when he started going off about how he didn't believe me.  So I think I will shoot for the one time and then the tools after.

He asks questions on a daily basis usually.  I pay the bills while he usually budgets.  It has been working good, mostly.  He is still bitter about me quitting my job.  However, when I offer to go back to work and he can stay home, he shoots it down real quick.

Most of the time "legitimate" questions are handled well.  Just days like this, it wasn't even about the truck really.  He was mad before the truck thing.  I honestly feel like he wanted an outlet/excuse to word vomit all these bad feelings because he couldn't contain them anymore.

You are a quick study, Frankee!    You are picking up things about BPD so much faster than I did and are able to control your own responses and use what you've learned here. Good work!   As you continue on this path, it will get easier. You've had to deal with a lot, more than many of us here, and you're doing it exceptionally well. 

*mod*

This thread has reached it's size limit and has now been locked.  The OP is welcome to continue the discussion in a new thread.

Thanks for your understanding.