Print Page - I turned off my phone for a couple hours to avoid the texts

It's been a long time since I've done that.

Basically... .a bunch of blather of her justifying herself or trying to apologize or ask forgiveness via text for telling me that none of our conversations on our trip were about anything that mattered and I was avoiding being intimate with her.

The actual conversation that we did have was about how I was processing my grief over my Father's death.

It was a wonderful trip... .a very intimate conversation about my grief and how things were going. I haven't a clue what set my wife off. After we got home she told me that we were in the car for 2 hours and nothing we talked about mattered... all I wanted to do is talk about rainbows.

She re-emphasized that NOTHING we talked about mattered.

I didn't yell or holler. I stayed calmed and asked her if my Father's death mattered or my grief mattered.

She denied talking about that or saying that.

Later... she acknowledged (via text) that we did talk about my Father's death but that I was being selfish in not talking about the things she wanted to talk about. (she brought up the subject about my Father... and all the other things she brought up... we talked about... again... I couldn't have asked for a more pleasant... satisfying car ride)

Then later in texting she tried to apologize and ask forgiveness via text... .I let her know that I would be home soon and available to talk in person, that I would accept either apology or a request for forgiveness via text.

More blather came in... .I shut off my phone. Went and had dinner... read the paper. Turned on the phone before I came home... .more random blather... .I likely would have responded had I had my phone on.

It would appear she plans on going to sleep with the little girls tonight.

Here is the thing. I know she is not capable of that level of intimacy. I should have refused the conversation.

Perhaps I'll feel differently after a good nights sleep... who knows.

How someone can say such horrible things... .and then complain about no emotional intimacy... .

Again... .I hope I feel differently in the morning... .to me... .this feels like a fundamental line has been crossed.
Whatever her intentions... or lack of intentions about my grief... .

FF

I don't want to discourage you from trying to have these intimate type conversations with your wife - but if she is not able to emotionally handle them - I hope that you can change your expectations of her reaction. Consider this: if she isn't able to handle her own emotions- and she has poor boundaries- she also may not be able to respond to you in a comforting manner when you are feeling a tough emotion like grief.

It really depends on the person's capacity for managing feelings- and BPD is a spectrum. What I have observed is that pwBPD are better at showing empathy for people who are not their intimate relationships. I think it has to do with boundaries. If you are in discomfort, she feels it and may dysregulate. If someone not as close to her is- she can see that it is their emotions, not hers and so can handle it better.

A term I have heard in my 12 step groups is " don't go to the empty well to drink". This doesn't mean you don't have these discussions with your wife- but don't expect to be comforted if she isn't able to do this in the presence of your own discomfort. Surely she sees you sad and feels sad for you but may not recognize this as empathy, not her own bad feelings- that could send her into victim mode " see you made me sad".

I can relate to your grief- losing my father was difficult. My H was supportive in his own way,but he does not handle it well when I demonstrated "negative" emotions around him. He reacts in a way one would not expect- he either gets angry, or tries to stop the feeling by negating it when what I really wish for is a hug and some empathy. Yet, he is better able to do this with someone else not as close to him. When I ask him what he is thinking later, he says " It upsets me to see you feel sad or upset". Well- that may be how he deals with his own uncomfortable feelings.

With my mother- who is at the severe end of the spectrum, it is like a boomerang. If I say to her " I am sad that my father died" her response is a cold " I am sad that MY HUSBAND died". It seems her focus is only on her own pain. Honestly, I think with her, she is so overwhelmed by her own emotions, there isn't room for her to be of help to anyone else.

Same as most of us if we are in HALT. Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. We are focused on ourselves- we are in need. We can't be emotionally present for someone else at this time. If you are grieving you are in HALT. You can and should still tell your wife what is going on with you, but if you have the need for emotional support it may be better to do that with your counselor. What I've learned to do if I want this is to talk to a counselor, or my 12 step group, sponsor for support for my feelings.

Notwendy

I know you are right.

My wife woke me up a couple times last night, but nothing was really said.

She woke me up this morning a bit early asking if we could talk and then she could make breakfast.

I said not now, that I was tired from lack of sleep and didn't feel well. I couldn't imagine a talk under those conditions helping our relationship.

She left the room... .remarkably calmly. There is loud music and banging in the kitchen. It's doubtful I'm getting any more rest this morning.

Notwendy

Does your husband complain about lack of talking about your feelings? Lack of emotional intimacy?

What do you think you would say if he asked/demanded a conversation about your feelings... let's say your feelings about your Father's death or some other topic that is obviously really important to you?

FF

That's an interesting question FF, because it is my H who is not a talker. This could be a Venus/Mars thing ( if you read the book, it discusses how men and women see talking differently) and also in his FOO nobody talks about feelings. Their idea is - if you don't discuss them, they don't exist. They "talk"- about the weather, what is on TV but nothing deeper than that.

So if I wanted my H to "talk " to me, his reply was " we do talk, we talk all the time" meaning we talked about the weather, the kids, politics, whatever but not anything deeper. I tried many times to go deeper and it was a monologue- I would talk and it seemed he would endure it- or even look as if it was painful. He may reply a few single words, then look at his watch and say " we've been talking for 40 minutes" as if he paid his dues for talking for now.

I just stopped. The idea of "don't go to the empty well to drink" resonated with me. He's an intelligent man and surely can talk, so I assumed he was not talking to me on purpose. I now have decided that someone needs to learn how to do this, and he didn't learn as a child, and at this point doesn't want to.

I also found a great book called "How To Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It" which helped me with other means to relate to him.

Ironically, my H says he does miss connection and intimacy. Talking ( deeper topics) is my way of connecting with people and it is a major love language for me. I stay faithful to my marriage but if I wanted to discuss something as emotionally difficult as grief, I do that with a counselor or 12 step counselor. I would say that I wish this was a part of my marriage but after trying many times for years to get this and failing, I felt I had to let go of this.

If my H actually asked me to talk, I'd be pleasantly surprised but I think he's both relieved and sad that I don't. Yes, he notices.

Demand is another thing. We can't demand someone talk to us. But there is some truth to the Venus/Mars book- for women, talking is an intimacy connector- she feels she needs that while men prefer a different kind of intimacy connection. ( you know what that is). Women like that too, but they want to be talked to. It isn't that men don't have feelings and don't want to talk, but they tend to see talking as a way to solve a problem and women see it as a way to connect. ( according to the book which I tend to agree with ).

She may want you to discuss your feelings, even if they trigger her. Maybe there is a way to do some of this without being reactive to her response.

I also wonder if my need for having a "heart to heart" discussion diminished when I worked on co-dependency. I think the 12 step groups have met that need for me in ways.

So... .I went for a long walk this morning doing exercises that my P has trained me to do, where I walk and breathe in a certain rhythm.

I feel somewhat better.

So... .second night in a row my wife woke me up with noise. 1st night she tried to apologize, last night... I have no idea if it was intentional or careless on her part... I don't recall anything in particular she said.

This morning she wanted to talk, as I posted earlier... I said I couldn't and was in no shape to do so.

She came back later with food. I said thank you.

I took my plate out sometime later and realized that she had put a hot plate to cook on next to a barstool I had placed a nicer shirt of mine on to dry (under a ceiling fan).

Bacon grease had splattered all over it. So I sprayed it and was preparing to put it back in the wash when she started yammering at me about it being her turn to do the wash... she would care for laundry.

I said "Please allow me to wash my shirt, it has fresh grease on it." (no blame)

She kinda approached me the laundry room, still yammering about her turn, so I left the room.

I decided to chill in the bedroom for a while. She comes in with her phone up... .either recording or pretending to record and starts announcing her apology for... .well... I have no idea what she was apologizing for.

I asked her to relent... .I wasn't able to have these conversations after not sleeping well, she got louder, I plugged my ears and left the room, she started following me around the house with her phone out, I got dressed (put on shirt and shoes) and left.

I'm much better after the walk. I've elected to stay home from church and attempt to relax and be thoughtful about things.

FF

Quote from: formflier on July 22, 2018, 08:11:00 AM

"At the start", did you guys have heart to heart conversations? If so, did they slowly die off over time?

Did they ever come back for a while?

Quote from: Notwendy on July 22, 2018, 07:53:30 AM

I tried many times to go deeper and it was a monologue- I would talk and it seemed he would endure it- or even look as if it was painful. He may reply a few single words, then look at his watch and say " we've been talking for 40 minutes" as if he paid his dues for talking for now.

Notwendy and I have often shared notes about how our husbands seem to respond from the same playbook, nearly word for word. The painful look I've seen that so many times.

To answer your question, FF, yes, at the beginning we had wonderful heart to heart conversations. Occasionally we might have one now and then, but it is very rare. Lots of times I feel he doesn't look at me, he looks past me. It's weird. I feel almost like a cardboard cutout.

This reminds me of a phrase my first husband, the husband from hell (HFH) would frequently say: "I'm not a prop in your drama."

I had no clue as to what that meant at the time, but now I'm thinking it's an interesting insight into BPD. He was thinking that I was using him as some sort of object to play a role in some melodrama that I was creating.

How this relates to your situation, FF, is possibly that your wife briefly showed you some understanding and compassion for your feelings of grief and perhaps felt: "OK, done. He should snap out of that." Not realizing that grief comes in waves and it's something we have to sit with for a while to process, rinse and repeat over and over and over.

Perhaps in her mind, she thought the conversation should then center on her concerns, now that yours were checked off the list.

I think we can all look back at the beginning of our relationships as easier times in a way. Although it seems that way - I realize that I brought a lot of my own issues from my FOO with me that felt “normal” at the time - a lot of codependent behavior. The communication issues were always there. I’d bring them up, he’d blame me, I believed him and tried to fix the problem. I didn’t see this pattern as abnormal - I grew up with it. Also he has none of the overt red flag behaviors my mother has and I didn’t recognize subtle dysfunction.

Like your relationship at first- these things seemed minor . I think you recalled flooding and water damage as when your marriage got rough. For us it was him starting a new job and we started a family. I think it was my strong emotional caretaking qualities that attracted him to me and some of these got diverted to raising children and he assumed I was deliberately withholding it from him and the devaluation started I walked on eggshells and continued to be codependent but I began to resent doing this for a grown adult but I felt I had to do it to keep the peace.

The issues for both of us were always there but different circumstances made them more obvious. My H may want the “former “ me- but that former me was codependent and enabling. Maybe that felt good for him but it wasn’t good for either of us for me to be that way.

Quote from: Notwendy on July 22, 2018, 08:59:19 AM

Like your relationship at first- these things seemed minor . I think you recalled flooding and water damage as when your marriage got rough.

Yep... .we were forced off the farm for about half a year.

Certainly there was conflict before then... .but it was "remarkable" that there was conflict and when it came up, it would be solved and it would stay solved.

I struggle to remember any example of a conflict that "came back" or would be "kitchen sinked" when another conflict came up

After the flood... .it was remarkable that something "stayed solved" for a period of weeks or months.

FF

Quote from: Cat Familiar on July 22, 2018, 08:48:42 AM

For a moment in the car, you felt genuine connection and concern from your wife about grieving your father's death. Then those feelings of intimacy and thoughts that she really cared about your process were completely dashed when she said that nothing about that conversation mattered.

After recently complaining about a lack of intimacy in her relationship with you, you thought you were experiencing genuine emotional intimacy when she opened that discussion. Then it was all shattered by her comment.

So sorry, FF.

Thanks Cat... .that's exactly how I see it.

You guys know me... .I'm always looking for a solution or did I do the boundary correctly... .

Very much like last fall... .when I knew that our financial ties were severed (quick version... after the hit me with ATM card)... .

Well... .I'm sitting here drinking coffee... .remarkably calm (the walk, breathe, rhythm thing is amazing). I can't imagine it ever being a good idea to be "emotionally vulnerable" to my wife again.

I'm hoping you guys can help me with the words... or what I call it... .

She shows "just enough" hope here and there that I get "sucked in" (I doubt she "plots" this)... .and I can find examples of emotional support that didn't get sabotaged. I actually can... .but they are "remarkable".

Hard to warp my head around... .I'm totally open to suggestions.

What do I say when she brings up emotional topics again?

FF

Maybe trade the idea of emotionally vulnerable to being emotionally secure and authentic. The more I am OK with me- as I am, the less someone else's comments bother me or ruin the moment. When someone says something about me to me, I put it through my filter ( boundary )of who I know I am. If it is true and it bothers me, then I say " that is interesting, I need to think about that" if it is hurtful and not true, then it becomes a pink elephant.

Someone wants to know what I think ? Well, I can tell them, if it is appropriate to do so. I think some things we don't need to share. I have to be able to radically accept that the response may not be what I hoped for. But someone can't ruin our feelings if we don't allow it to.

Also with your wife, feelings may be facts. You could have an intimate talk and the next day she is feeling as if she doesn't have it. The parallel to us is sex. My H says we NEVER have sex. It could be two days ago and he says that. It isn't a fact but in the moment, if it feels like it, well that's what he says. That also becomes a self fulfilling prophesy as it is doesn't make you want to feel intimate when someone says that to you, and I have felt very hurt by the fact that he doesn't seem to recall the intimate times. But it also isn't true and it doesn't help if I react negatively to that.

Yes, Cat, I think with both our H's- they are well educated and good at their careers. I think this got them a lot of reinforcement for that. It is a good blessing, but I also think it can take the place of developing communication skills. Successful men tend to attract potential mates and are socially admired. For my mother, she was very beautiful and popular, and I think people excuse other behaviors when someone is attractive. She was able to present herself well socially and people were naturally attracted to her. In her era, survival and success for women was to find a good husband. I think BPD exists on a spectrum and that also, pwBPD can have many positive traits and attractive qualities.

Notwendy,

More questions... thanks for helping.

So... .when you husband says you NEVER have sex. How do you react/speak now?

I just had a quick phone call with P... she has given me some pointers and "mindset" changes that may calm things. I'm still trying to process those.

Focus on what I can do to turn down the temperature now... .solve tomorrow stuff later.

P believes my wife "didn't feel heard" at work... .(after discussing some of the events of the ride home)... .and that somehow there was something she really wanted to discuss, but I missed.

That when she was saying that "NOTHING" we talked about mattered... that she was talking about how she felt about herself.

Sigh...

FF

I think your P is correct and when your wife didn’t feel heard she went into black and white thinking “nothing “ similarly to “never”.

Recently we had this discussion and I just started to cry. He said “ I don’t think you care” and I just said it all - I heard this when we were younger and now with menopause changes if I’m not enough for you then I can’t do any more than what we are doing now and I’m trying my best.

The difference is that I believe what I said. The complaint is not true. I’m a good wife, I’ve stayed in good shape physically but I can not turn into a 20 year old. That’s all I can do. I actually think he heard it .

Ironically when he isn’t in the moment of feeling “never “ he says he’s happy with things as they are. He’s not 20 either.

FF- we can do better but ultimately we probably can’t be perfect . There will probably be the “never” and the “nothing “ but I think these words are said in the moment and we remember them longer than they do.

Quote from: formflier on July 22, 2018, 09:27:59 AM

She shows "just enough" hope here and there that I get "sucked in" (I doubt she "plots" this)... .and I can find examples of emotional support that didn't get sabotaged. I actually can... .but they are "remarkable".

I admire your consistency with boundaries, FF. Yeah, I don't think she plots it either and I know exactly what you mean about getting sucked in over and over.

Though it doesn't feel like the kind of intimacy I would have had with an emotionally healthy partner, I keep my husband on "a need to know basis" and then only slowly parse out anything extra, monitoring his state from moment to moment. Sort of like not wading out too deep in the ocean before I know how the currents will impact me.

Reading this I had a couple of thoughts.

1. Did you talk about your father for the entire 2 hours? My guess is it was a short portion of the conversation, and her feeling of the overall 2 hours was that she was feeling a certain way. So she exaggerates (a common technique, not just BPD), which you took to mean she was talking about your father when she had probably forgotten about it.

2. She has made an attempt to have a conversation with you, but the time didn't work for you. The ball is now in your court to schedule a conversation with her. She is probably feeling that your insistence on a conversation not text, is a way to just avoid the conversation entirely.

My best guess is about 30 minutes talk about my grief and how all of that is going.

During my talk with P she questioned me pretty good and the biggest mistake she could find was that when (earlier in ride) my wife was complaining about something at work, I asked if she wanted some ideas to solve it, she said yes... so I gave her some ideas.

P says that I should have said "Boy FFw... ., I haven't a clue what to suggest you do about this, but that has to hurt to be ignored and made to feel like you don't matter."

She said I was too much in my head and not enough in my heart... .or "her heart".

Of course... .no idea if that was "it". My wife was frustrated with how an email chain was going about a bulletin board that was getting set up.

Her comments were odd to me because she said something along the lines of "all you want to do is talk about rainbows"... .and there was a particularly striking rainbow that we happened upon, during the last part of the conversation about my grief.

FF

FF- have you read the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus? I think it is a good explanation of some of the cultural differences between how men and women perceive "talking". I am not one to stereotype but I think the explanation helped for me to see how my H and I perceived it differently.

One of the premises is the reasoning for talking is different. Women tend to talk to connect and feel connected, and men tend to talk to problem solve. So when a women starts to connection talk to her intimate partner, he assumes it's a need to solve the problem and he responds with begins to offer solutions. The woman then doesn't feel heard or connected. Your P was right on when she suggested you reply with a validation of the feelings first, rather than start with coming up with a solution.

Sometimes the reason for the woman talking isn't only to solve the issue and may not be about solving the issue at all but to connect by sharing the feeling. "I had a hard day at work" may not need a solution- it may even be solved already, but to simply bond by letting you know what is going on. In return, your wife may also want a similar connection with you- want to know what you are feeling but may not be always able to handle it emotionally.

I think both men and women talk for both reasons. The book was about cultural tendencies but I think it helped.

Quote from: Notwendy on July 23, 2018, 05:03:56 AM

Women tend to talk to connect and feel connected, and men tend to talk to problem solve. So when a women starts to connection talk to her intimate partner, he assumes it's a need to solve the problem and he responds with begins to offer solutions. The woman then doesn't feel heard or connected. Your P was right on when she suggested you reply with a validation of the feelings first, rather than start with coming up with a solution.

I've certainly been in your shoes, FF, wondering what the heck has happened with the conversation.

Because I'm so pragmatic and logical, I've missed the boat too when people have needed emotional support.

Once I was having lunch at a restaurant with a friend who is a counselor. She's had a series of disappointing online relationships with inappropriate men. So she starts telling me her latest heartbreak, then began sobbing. I was clueless how to help her, so I went into my problem solving modality. She soon stopped me short and accused me of being an Aspie because I was completely ignoring her feelings.

Afterwards I learned more about how Asperger's presents in women and I do think she was right--that I am on the spectrum. It really explains my enthusiasm for talking about design and function with engineers and builders and why I'm uncomfortable with overt displays of emotions.

That aside, I also have had similar experiences with my husband. When he has wanted emotional support, I've tried to give him strategy. I'm learning to catch myself when I go there and I'm no longer so oblivious to other people's emotional needs. But logic, strategy, options, solutions--that's my default mode.

FF,

Not to add another idea in the mix but often I find with W that she has a weird perception of fair... .all things must be fair, in fact all things must be slightly unfair, as though the banquette table is slightly tipped down towards her. If I talk to her about X, she must have a conversation about 2X... .a bit Billy 2 sh!ts... .if you've had 1 he's had 2. You spent a long time talking about you, she felt like she was giving a bit too much and giving is not something that makes her feel massively safe. e.g. I would talk about my grief when my father passed in 2015, I figured I was allowed that... .nope, "I'm grieving as well". I wasn't allowed to 'take' for too long, as that was unfair.

You felt connected, she felt like she was giving.

Same here Enabler. Things have to be uneven and in his favor for my H to feel things are “fair” between us. He doesn’t seem to enjoy giving to me - materially or emotionally- in the sense of getting any joy from giving and seeing someone happy. Gratuitous giving to him feels like he’s being taken advantage of.

The other day he opened something I bought from a box and then decided he wanted to send it back so he came to get me to pack up the box. It was as if he’d already done his part and so I had to do mine. Sometimes he insists I help him take out the trash. I can do it alone but if he’s doing it - I have to help somehow.

House and kids are my job. If I ask for help once in a while he argues that it isn’t fair because he has his job and it would be doing two jobs if he helped.

I don’t begin to get it. As to talking intimately - ( back to the thread) I don’t go there much. It’s a lot of effort on my part and just leaves him agitated. If I want to “talk” I go to a 12 step group for relationship discussions and if it’s something else - I have a close female friend to talk to.

I keep score. I'm a data guy.

For instance... .the recent financial "explosion" on my wife's trip about spending her card on Amazon.

That was the first direct mention/threat of divorce in at least 6 months, likely over a year. I have a vague memory of something about 6 months ago... .but haven't been able to find further proof.

I then use that data to put a smile on my face... .and "remember"... .that things are better, even though my feelings were hurt at the time.

facts equals feelings for me... .and eventually my feelings came along... .and I waited for her to reach out in a few days... .and I was happy to hear from her.

But... .it works for me. I can totally see how it can go bad for some, especially if you are not willing to take action... .after seeing the data.

Hehe... .FF knows... .radar altimeter nearing zero with a high "negative " (going down) VSI (vertical speed indicator) is no good.

Yeah... I like data.

FF

I meant keeping score with the small stuff. Like when he insists I help him take out the trash when either of us can do it on our own. It feels as if he’s evening out some scoresheet so things feel fair. Sometimes he will sit and watch me scramble around to get things done. It doesn’t occur to him to ask “need a hand”? I know better than to bring this petty stuff up but I admit when he sits and watches me i feel resentful. I don’t mind if he’s busy or wants to do something else but when he is sitting in the same room watching me I just wonder what is going on. Sometimes I wonder if he’s baiting me to get angry to start some drama.

Being told you are worthless and don’t do anything isn’t small stuff. Neither is overspending the credit card or threatening divorce. Who takes out the trash is aggravating but doesn’t cause serious harm. Verbal abuse, unreliability with money, divorce threats can’t be shrugged off.

Quote from: Notwendy on July 23, 2018, 07:08:17 PM

I admit when he sits and watches me i feel resentful

Sorry to micro slice your post but, you do keep a slate, for moment at least... .I’m working and you’re not.

I’m not necessarily referring to some giant scoreboard where I calculate how many times I’ve taken out the bins vs her. I guess these momentary score boards do build up though, I’m incentivised to do so in emotional reaction to her critisism and insinuation that I’m lazy... .somewhat of a maladapted defence mechanism. The score board got soo big yet the critisism continued which results in contempt.

FFs data bank is not massively different apart from that it’s a positive act of defending himself against emotional hurt. “I don’t react to divorce threats because I know they are not genuine and the last time was x and that was y months after the previous one”.

Doing what we do because we choose to do it is important... .you can choose to ask your H to take out the bins and if he chooses not to the bins might not get taken out at all. No one will die in the first instance, so ultimately we had a choice. Yes it’s a battle of attrition but we have a choice.

I get what you are saying. What I meant was I don't have a numerical count of how many times each of us did what. I acknowledge that he is our main provided and so don't expect him to do much at home. I consider that to be mainly my job.

Maybe it's a matter of consideration. Regardless of who does what, if I wasn't busy and was hanging out with someone while they are cleaning the kitchen, I wouldn't sit there and watch them. I would pitch in and help. It isn't that he isn't working with me, it's that he's sitting there watching me, not really engaged, and with no attempt to communicate. I find that irritating. If he were in another room, I just focus on what I am doing.

For many nons we are the main breadwinners and do a lot of the jobs around the home. Like you, I can't put my feet up and read the paper knowing there is stuff to be done. I see that as poor teamwork... .although is it poor teamwork when someone has chosen to put their feet up all day and read the paper knowing full well that you will relentlessly muck in when you get home? I'm starting to ignore the quimming and passive aggressive behaviour which screams "I AM BUSY DOING THINGS AND YOU ARE DOING NOTHING HUFF HUFF HUFFF HUFFFFFF <Spitting Cobra>"

I get that. That is my mother. My father was the breadwinner by day, and the parent when he came home and also on weekends. One of the things we wondered as kids was "what does Mommy do all day". Once we were able to go to friends' houses, we saw their Mommies cooking, and cleaning and taking care of the house- doing things we didn't see our mother doing. This was the era where most women didn't work outside the home so this is the model we saw.

I'm fine with the breadwinner getting a chance to relax- in fact, I encourage it. On weekends, I would get up and take the kids on outings so my H would have a chance to relax. But I also saw parents on these outings together and it felt sad that my H didn't do these things with us.

Maybe this bothered me because it reminded me of weekends when my father took us out alone and left BPD mom at home. I loved the time with my dad. I truly have empathy for the breadwinner non who has to take on far more than his/her share of keeping the family intact but I also know that this kind of time with the kids forms strong bonds. I have many great childhood memories of these times with him and really none of being with my mother. It's not fair to you Enabler, but it hasn't gone unnoticed either- what you do for your family and your kids is having an impact on your kids and your relationship with them. So is what your wife is doing.

I think you have said what is the issue- the feeling of lack of teamwork and the wish to have your efforts acknowledged. I don't have a problem with someone coming home from work and putting their feet up - I guess I just wanted to have some teamwork on occasion, somehow it feels lonely at times but I also recognize that being the breadwinner and doing it all at home is a far more difficult situation. This is not the situation I wanted in my family and so I am very conscientious of not imposing house work or child care on my H- but felt it would be nice to hear an occasional " need a hand with that?"

I suspect my irritation at being watched is reminiscent of something from my childhood and BPD mom.

My first husband would let me shoulder all the work of unloading the car after I returned from a shopping trip. I got used to that.

We had a friend live with us for a few months and he was from the rural South. When he heard me return from grocery shopping, he'd run to help me unload the car, while my husband just looked confused. Over time, his helping behavior "guilted" my husband into volunteering somewhat.

I remember our friend's phrase: "How can I be of service?" As part of the cultural environment he was raised in, he expected to help whenever he could and his participation made work joyful.

So different than a pwBPD sullen selfishness.

Nowadays I will go to the big box store every other month and do a huge shopping trip. My current husband will hear me park the truck near the house and he will sit in his studio if he's watching TV and I will do all the unloading, except at the very end, he will pitch in a nominal amount of help--just to say he helped. Occasionally he will do a bit more.

What is shocking to me is where is the chivalry? Not that I need the help, but it would be nice. I think my friend from long ago really got a healthy ego boost by being so helpful. So what's with these guys who sit on their hands? If they knew how unattractive that behavior appeared to others, perhaps they might be willing to make a change.

I think you’ve got it Cat. It’s being unaware of someone else-self centered. I’ve also gotten the half way help so that he can say he helped. I don’t even try to discuss how it feels. It doesn’t go well. I also haul the groceries in but he will help if I ask him.

Once in college I was overwhelmed with school work. A guy friend came over- noticed I was overwhelmed and without asking -washed the pile of dishes in my sink for me and said “you look like you could use a hand “.

There were evenings when I was juggling a child with an ear infection, dinner, laundry, but didn’t hear “ you look like you could use a hand “. Once when the kids were little and I was up with one of them during the night -the next day a male coworker asked “are you OK? You look tired” and I realized I didn’t hear that at home.

I could not ever treat a spouse the way my mother did. I can’t even imagine doing so little to contribute and help out. I would think it was a terrible thing to do.

I thought I would give the perspective of a lazy non-BPD (myself). I do help wife with bringing in the groceries (in my mind, it is one of my chores, not me seeing a problem and pitching in), but I don't work just because I see her working.

My wife stays at home, and I work to bring in the income. Just as she doesn't help me do my job, I don't think it is fair for her to expect me to do hers. I don't like working, and I work when I have to. When she takes on a task or project without discussing with me (which is usually the way it works), I don't feel a responsibility to take on the work. I think my wife likes working more than I do. On the lazy side, being pushed into working more than necessary is not appealing. However, if my wife asks me for help on a project I will normally say yes (she usually asks for tasks that require strength or height), but I don't normally volunteer.

Anyway, I am not saying this to justify the behavior of your spouse, but to point out that not all character flaws are BPD related.

Hey Fian,
I would certainly not classify you as "lazy" since you bring home the bread and butter. And you deserve time to recharge after working at your job all day. I agree that projects that your wife undertakes on her own are not your responsibility and you're right not to volunteer.

I've had animals, small as well as livestock, for decades and when my husband and I got together, I was hoping that he would occasionally be able to help me with feeding when I was ill or injured. Well, fast forward 15 years and he still hasn't a clue how to feed any of them, nor has he volunteered, except once, the day I returned home from the hospital after hitting my head and having a concussion.

Then I had to give him detailed instruction as to how to do feed the goats, sheep and horses. And for the days following, even though I was seeing double and could barely navigate the uneven terrain, I was back to doing my tasks without an offer of help.

This is what Notwendy and I were addressing: the inability of pwBPD to be aware of our needs and offer a hand when we are overwhelmed. It's quite different than a non's need for recharge time after a long day of work.

Cat

Fian - my H felt the same way- that his job was his, mine was the house. This didn’t vary whether or not I was working too ( and I’ve done full time, part time, and SAHM at different times in our marriage.) He’s the main wage earner.

I’ve been supportive of his need for down time. I’d say our arrangement is traditional and I don’t expect him to do housework.

As cat said - there is a difference between a division of work and just being tuned in to your partner. If a child has an ear ache, or mom is under the weather- a simple “need a hand?”’is appreciated once in a while. Although I can’t reciprocate at his job exactly -if he needed a hand at something else I’d be willing to help. I understand the need for tough boundaries in this area if the stay at home spouse has BPD but I don’t push boundaries like that. It’s important to me to pull my share at home. I grew up with BPD Mom doing very little to help out and don’t want to do that. A hand once in a while would not result in taking on a job on a regular basis.

Notwendy and Cat Familiar... .I relate so much when reading your posts.

From my experience living with both my husband and his 2 adult sons, all diagnosed with BPD, I couldn't agree more that it's the self-centeredness related to BPD that prevents them from caring that someone may need help, for example by bringing in groceries. I do believe the person with BPD is "aware" that the other person may need help... .they have eyes and ears to see us pulling in the driveway. But the bottom line, at least in my experience... .is due to lack of empathy, they can't offer a care in the world.

This even held true when my husband's oldest was staying with us completely rent-free, also being cooked meals on a daily basis. One day, my husband actually asked him why he doesn't help with the dishes sometime. His son insisted that he washed dishes every day! As it turns out, he meant he rinsed off "his" plate after each meal. In his world, his was the only plate that existed!

Back to the original post by FF. I'm glad to hear that things have settled. I agree with the other posters that inability to feel empathy for a partner and general BPD self centeredness might have played a role in wife's reaction.

My brother passed away back in 2013 at 28 years old. We were very close, and I was grieving deeply. My BPD husband could not tolerate all the attention that was being given to the upcoming funeral and my late brother. The behavior included throwing a hot iron against the wall (we were trying to prepare dress clothes for the funeral). Finally, the night before the funeral, he told me he wanted a divorce... .because he knew that was the most hurtful thing he could possibly say at the time and he was desperate. My brother's death was just getting too much attention. Boy, did that mess me up. Since that day, I have not been able to feel emotionally connected to husband. I believe it's a coping mechanism my brain did subconsciously, to protect me. I wonder if others with BPD partner experienced the same?

I’m curious -with the division of jobs of wife at home and husband at work. The husband can help ( it he chooses ) but the wife can’t go to the husband’s workplace and do his job. If the husband helps with “her” job - what could the wife do to reciprocate?

To me - this creates an impossible imbalance. It’s a situation that I try to avoid by not asking or expecting help.

It did bother me to see my parents’ situation. My father worked and my mother really didn’t do anything. I wondered how she could do that and still be ok with herself?

If my H offered to help me once in a while I would be very appreciative but unless I could do something in return I would not be comfortable only being on the taking end.

Wow, FF, we really did a hijack on your thread here.

So sorry for the loss of your father and your wife's inability to empathize with your grief for more than a moment. As those of us who've processed these big losses know, grief comes in waves, often unexpectedly by the reminder of something your loved one might have said, worn, done, a place you've visited, a scent, a favorite meal. I used to walk in the cookie aisle in the grocery store and catch myself reaching for the type of cookies I always bought my mother, then I'd remember that she was no longer here.

Jacobsgirl, I bet you really miss your brother and I'm very sorry for your loss of someone who cared so deeply for you. It's so hard to deal with grief when we don't have the support of the person who should have our backs. You asked if anyone had been in a similar situation.

Well, my dad was on his deathbed in the hospital, so I flew hundreds of miles to be there. The day after he died, as I was consoling my mother, the phone rang. It was my soon-to-be-ex-husband who told me that I had to fly home immediately or he would commit suicide. I had just made the funeral arrangements, so all the necessary questions were freshly in my mind: burial or cremation, embalmment or refrigeration, viewing or no? I reacted far differently than I ever had before to his suicide threats and that was the last one I ever heard. However, his new girlfriend told me that he was holding her "hostage with suicide threats" so that was part of a strategy he was well accustomed to using.

Like you, something within me broke at that point. I was already well down the path of leaving that relationship, but when he couldn't respect my grieving process for even a day, well, I found a level of disrespect I never knew I could feel for another human being.

This quote intrigued me. This is my first attempt to quote from a post... .so I apologize if this doesn't come out right:
---
Here is the thing. I know she is not capable of that level of intimacy. I should have refused the conversation.

Perhaps I'll feel differently after a good nights sleep... who knows.

How someone can say such horrible things... .and then complain about no emotional intimacy... .
---

This made me wonder if pwBPD's are actually aware of their lack of ability to achieve a high level of emotional intimacy.

Back when I used to attempt emotionally intimate conversations with my husband, I was met with anger/rage or even "fight or flight mode". For this reason I don't even try anymore.

I do have friends with whom I can be emotionally intimate. I used to invite these friends over the house. We would talk and laugh. He never attempted to engage in our conversations, even when we spoke to him... .he would just stare at his iPad (something he always does when I speak to him.) Eventually, he would become visibly angry and slam doors. My friends would become uncomfortable, and for this reason they no longer visit.

Days later, once he calmed down, he would complain of feeling "all alone in a room full of people". Of course, he would blame us for that despite us inviting him into the conversation several times. It was almost as if he was lamenting his inability to connect.

I apologize for all the ramblings, I'm not sure if this is the right place... . have a great weekend.

Inability to have intimate conversations is common. But just because someone can’t doesn’t mean they don’t want to. I also pushed for this and it didn’t go well. It’s a dilemma because the less emotional I am at home the better we get along. I know he misses it and I do too but I don’t miss the drama. I wonder if the drama is a substitute for intimacy? It does create high emotions and focus. But I choose the peaceful coexistence. We do well if we keep to our roles. I’m involved with kids, home, my job. He’s got his. We can talk about most topics that are not personal. We have similar values about family, marriage, religion which helps as we don’t have conflicts about child rearing.

Since my situation is relativity mild compared to some other situations, I was able to reduce the drama using the tools on this board, counseling , 12 steps codependency. He’s a lot more relaxed, and I learnd to use radical acceptance. We have our strong and not strong points. Intimate talking isn’t a option I want to try at the moment . Maybe one day but not now. Its a journey so who knows I might try again when I feel ready but I know it will be limited, if it’s even possible.

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting => Topic started by: formflier on July 21, 2018, 08:19:42 PM