BPDFamily.com

This is a very long post-sorry.

My topic is really about my marriage, and while I contemplated posting on Conflicted or Detaching, the more I've weighed the options, I feel it belongs right here on PSI. We are a unique group, us adult children with a BPD parent. I have the weight of having had a uBPDm and then the added weight of a disordered/dysfunctional spouse. He's never been diagnosed with anything but depression, but something isn't right. I see so much of my uBPDm in him.

We finally began marriage counseling a couple weeks ago. We've gone once as a couple and once each individually. We have another couple's session this Tuesday. The T is good. He is smart, smarter than DH by far, which is necessary imho because the T won't be intimidated by DH. He is balanced in his approach which is also absolutely necessary for DH to not quit and say I'm favored, and perhaps most importantly, the T is male. DH has little respect for the female gender, but he will tell you he believes quite differently. I know because I see the life lived before me, how I'm treated as a female, and the myriad of words he has said and continues to say over the years to degrade women. I'm sorry, but one or two sentences of 'niceness' about women every once in a while does not give credibility to the beliefs he claims to have. Our actions talk more loudly than our words.

I feel as if I've gathered up all the wisdom, validation, growth, healing, courage and confidence I've gained over the last 7 years of individual T and placed it firmly within myself to now go forward and face this major foe: my unhealthy marriage relationship. Before now, I have not felt strong enough to confront the N traits that live in my husband. He is formidable, passive aggressive, and as he says, "I grew up having to be right." No winning against that, and what would winning prove anyway? Nothing really.

Believe it or not, all of my past ties into this current time of marriage T. The extra intensity that is focused within those walls of the little room where we sit,  then the hours and days in between sessions has brought up all the stuff that was the foundation of my childhood. I battle what I know to be truth now and try to remember it, while at the same time falling into the mindset of my little inner children who believe the truth of their past, that fear is the truest component of all to be seen. They fear what they remember (which comes back in living color memories in my mind) of the DV of my dad towards my uBPDm, or my uBPDm's verbal and emotional violence against my dad. Was she physically violent towards him? I do not know, but she certainly was towards us kids and my dad was physically abusive to us as well. So I have these memories popping up when DH and I have the tiniest of conflicts that are really just disagreements and not fights. To DH though, they are fights because his FOO had no conflict whatsoever. Compare that with my FOO conflict, and he has no clue what fighting is all about. I'm attempting to be healthy in my disagreement, and I know I am. I've gone from a place of 'must-avoid-conflict-at-all-costs' to 'some expression of feelings is okay.' DH wants zero conflict. He doesn't like the manner in which I express myself. Firm and sometimes intense is not throwing things and raging and screaming like my parents did.

The triggers to the past are tough to deal with right now, and I find my body is in an almost constant state of hyper alertness. I am learning that especially now I must limit contact with DH because my reactivity is so on edge. All those parallels to my mom. After my parents would rage against one another, then mom would come after us.

Last night I lay in bed just trying to go back in time to see what I was feeling during those fights. It was great fear and aloneness, from the age of 5ish on.  My brother and I wanted to hide and make it stop, only to be roused with a rush when uBPDm would burst into my bedroom in the middle of the night and say, "Pack you suitcase, we're leaving." She'd drive around in the blackness of night on the country roads with no place in mind, crying and furious while we sat hushed and afraid, never knowing if we'd go back or not. We always did. It was a common occurrance that happened a lot.

In some ways I feel as if this present time is also connected to my past so that I can heal from the things I've not yet dealt with from my childhood, from what I saw in my parent's marriage. Dealing with the messages I absorbed is one thing; dealing with what I saw and experienced is another.

I go forward knowing that I must, because I have chosen to no longer live in a marriage filled with dysfunction. It's like in my personal life when I reached that same crossroads as those of us here, knowing we had to begin to heal from the wounding. I don't think DH is capable of meeting anyone's emotional needs due to the damage from his own childhood, and I need an emotionally safe place. I can however, set up boundaries that can help me to stay safe and be safe. Isn't that what we need to do with our pwBPD as well? "Radical accepatance" as The Board Parrot says. I'm seeing the need to radically accept the situation and therein remain healthy for me. If DH is not able to contribute to that safety but rather contributes to my being and feeling unhealthy, theat's where my fences need to be established and remain firm. I guess I'm digging the post holes to put that fence firmly in place.  |iiii

Thanks for listening.
Wools

Hi Wools.  I am so proud of you and inspired by your courage.  It has been a privilege to be able to watch you grow over the years.  I know the struggle is not over but boy are you shining bright.  *)  It may not feel like it, but I can see it.  

I am here if you need me... .oh hell, I am here even if you don't need me  

EDIT:  keep posting.  We can work through those triggers. 

Wools, what Harri said. I’m here for you too. You got this thing and you are moving forward.  

  L2T

Hi Wools,

I'm glad to hear you are going to take the relationship with your husband on.  You have been sharing some issues here for awhile now.  It isn't easy to do this stuff but you are facing it... .brave llama!

I can hear your self-awareness... .wise mind... .that's good and will be helpful and so is a "smart" Therapist.

I'm with the others and here for you too.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/598881382472011776/13n_Ru7B_400x400.png)

Panda39

Lol Panda! You're as bad as The Parrot! Good to bring a sense of humor to a heavy subject. Thanks.

Harri, I'm glad you're there no matter what.  

L2T, you are an awesome encouraging voice on these boards.  |iiii Keep it up.

I'll let you all know how session goes. Hopefully I won't be triggered so that I can post soon after. Last time was when I got that horrible migraine that lasted for 4 days-worst ever and like what I had as a child. I think I'm more centered... .at least for this moment.

Keep calm... .keep calm... .Practicing my llama deep breathing.

 
Wools

On all of your years of marriage,  did your husband ever know about what you went through? Was it ever safe to share?

Everyone deserves to be safe.  Llamas deserve to be safe  

I'll love up my little girl even more,  and hey brother also. I think I knew it,  but coming here I realized how critical it is to show love so that our children feel safe.

Hi Wools, your post resonated with me. I think it is great that you two have found a therapist that your H at least agrees to see and seems to have the upper hand with him. I had the same issue with my H walking out of a marital therapy session because he thought the two of us were ganging up on him. We also later found a wise MC who was female. In my H's case a male would not have worked as well. His FOO issues involved his father and there is no way he would open up to a male ( if he opened up at all). Our MC was able to form a good therapeutic bond with him.

I would not rush to have your T  "label" your H. Our MC labeled me. ( co-dependent). There were times I felt she was ganging up on me and let my H off the hook which I think he enjoyed- me having the problem not him. I was angry about this at times, until I realized it was working. With him off the hook, and liking the T, she was able to work with him some later on his triggers and responses- with no label. Had she done this another way, he would probably have quit. It didn't seem fair that I had to work more than he did on my own triggers but the work was worth it. I think she knew who would be more motivated to do this kind of work because of our FOO issues. Mine was full of conflict. His had zero conflict ( it was there but handled covertly). So he assumed there were no issues in his FOO and I was aware of mine.

The work isn't easy but it is worth it. I encourage you to continue. I can't remember how much time it took  but one day my BPD mother was saying some triggering things to me on the phone, and I realized I didn't feel triggered. I didn't even feel any agitation or upset when she said them. It was amazing. Then, my H didn't trigger me as much either, I became less emotionally hurt and reactive to him and the conflict in our marriage began to get less. This wasn't instant it took time but I noticed it. I also felt better about my ability to handle hurtful comments.

I read a book- Passionate Marriage- and despite the steamy title and contents, it deals into marital issues. One line stood out to me. The book uses the term "differentiation" for emotional maturity and good boundaries. It says " We tend to choose partners who match our level of differentiation" and then- the very revealing next line " and each partner thinks he or she is more differentiated than their partner". It also discusses how our FOO affects our differentiation.

That was an eye opener. I matched my H. And he thought he was the more stable one too. But is FOO didn't have a raging BPD mother, so how could it match mine? And my H thought his was perfectly normal? But lack of conflict and over the top conflict both lead to poor abilities to handle conflict. His Dad had a temper but one hardly saw it because his co-dependent mother managed it. I found the match- my father was codependent and I was too.

Like you, I was done with dysfunction and knew that the answer to that was with me. Although I wished my H would deal with his own issues and FOO issues, realistically that was not going to happen. Fortunately, my H is not like my mother in many ways, and it was a mystery to me that some things he did made me feel as if I was with my mother. We both brought our own stuff into the marriage and surely my own co-dependent tendencies would match someone with whom to be co-dependent with. Some similar patterns between my parents were in my marriage too. I also read that, even if the marriage doesn't last, if we don't work on our own stuff- we are likely to attract someone with whom we have similar dysfunction. What was the point of breaking this off only to end up in the same situation? The answer still came down to working on me, for my own better growth-  no matter what happened with the relationship. It isn't without it's issues, probably every relationship has some, but it is more manageable now.

Hang in there Wools!  

Yes, Wools, Llamas deserve to be safe.     

Turkish, you are such an awesome wolf pack papa.

Notwendy, thank you for sharing this!
I think you've given me access to a missing piece of my puzzle this morning. Mind. Blown. Thank you for this, more exploration to do... .:thought:

I look forward to whatever you’ve able to share whenever you’re able to share it, Wools. I suffered with migraines in my youth and young adult years and understand how disabling they can be. Please be extra kind, loving and compassionate to yourself today—and every day. You are absolutely worthy.

  L2T

Turkish, to answer your question, no,I've not felt safe to share with DH. DH knew that I had some stuff going on with my uBPDm and that it would affect my self image. He never had a clue how bad it was until I told him a few things in the past few years. I typically chose carefully what I shared (or it would just slip out too sometimes when I had a memory that I needed to tell someone or a nightmare that I woke from). Yet I've not shared a lot because when I would, he would then either turn and validate my mom but definitely not me, or when I thought he understood, then he made it about himself and talked about how he had been treated in a certain way or felt a certain way too so that even those times were not validating but all about him. I had to save my validation needs for T session or with my few closest people who were supportive of me as I heal. Plus there is this place here with my online family who also validates and love llamas.  :)

NotWendy, thank you for sharing your story. We've lived a pretty parrallel journey it seems. I appreciate the bit of hope that I was able to glean from your words. Interestingly enough, this T shared an article about differentiation with me when I met with him individually earlier this year, before I was ready to start MC. I had never heard about it and was fascinated. Last week when I met with him individually, he brought back up the idea of differentiation again and said it is key in his opinion. So I shall pull that article back up once again. Might be a good thread topic too sometime.

L2T if you've gotten some helpful clues from this topic already, then it's all worth it.  |iiii

Tomorrow afternoon is session #2... .
My Little Wools who is 5 to 7 years old, she's the one who is afraid and keeps hearing mom and dad fighting. DH and I don't fight at all like that. It's quiet disagreement. Yet my Little Wools, she cannot see anything but what she knew and knows from those years. Maybe I will get more understanding as we move forward.

Wools

We used to have some big fights but I was concerned it was scaring the kids, so I entered into a years long stretch of walking on eggshells and appeasing to keep things quieter. That was not the right thing to do as I learned later when dealing with my own co-dependency, but I was worried about my kids experiencing the kind of fights I witnessed as a child with my parents.

They picked up on it anyway. They are older now and have told me. They can see where their father and I are compatible in some ways, but also recognize we are different people and have arranged our marriage to the point of cooperation even though we may not be on the same page about everything. My H adores them and has a good relationship with them. Thankfully, our issues have been mainly between us and he is a good father to them.

I would feel it is triangulation to discuss his part of things with the kids, but I am open about mine. They know I get help for co-dependency. They understand what BPD is and are able to have boundaries with my mother. One of the issues in my FOO was the secrecy and pretending all is normal. I don't think it is a good idea to go into details with children, but they are old enough to know that there have been issues in my FOO, and that their father and I went to counseling. What I want to role model for them is that- we may have grown up a certain way- but we can get help and work on ourselves. I also want them to have good boundaries and I reinforce them.

I admire how you are leaving no stone unturned in your healing. Thank you for posting on this Board about your MC, and setting an example in having the courage to face how the wounds of the past and present are interconnected, which is a long and painful process.

Hey Wools.  I've been thinking of you off an on all day (I am writing this at 1am on Wednesday but i mean on tuesday!)  

Differentiation is what we once talked about with boundaries and helps explain how i think of where I begin and end in terms of other people, especially my mom.  It helped me to separate from her emotionally.

Read this on Family Systems theory by Bowen.  He talks of 8 concepts, one of them being differentiation.  He also talks about triangulation https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

And then this thread here has some interesting stuff. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=208665.0

There is another thread I was thinking of but can't locate right now.  I will keep looking.

Hi Wools, I just want you to know you’re being thought of very kindly this morning. I so admire your courage and pursuit of healing. You are smart, strong and brave.

I hope you’ll do something extra wonderful for yourself today. You are so worthy of amazing love, joy and peace in your life.

  L2T

Thank you to all for the kind thoughts sent my llama way. 

I was quite anxious before session but no headache so that's a victory.  |iiii I also happened to have my own individual session yesterday morning which was very helpful. The main topic was about my Little Wools, my 5 year old inner child who is so stuck remembering the fights right now (which I know I touched on earlier). 

My T asked an interesting question. He wondered what my 5 year old self was hearing when her parents were fighting and where was she? I said I was hearing the fighting and was usually upstairs in my room or standing in the doorway to my room. He asked if I was hiding, and you know how you have that sudden knowing that comes? I was hiding, and funny how this week, in the present, I went to bed one night and pulled the sheet up over my head and ear as I often do, the other ear buried in my pillow. I did this so I could drown out the night noises of the fights from my childhood. I even heard myself say in my head, "I can hide now." How interesting are those subconscious thoughts which sometimes we can pull out and grab hold of.

What I was hearing besides the fighting was... .I was alone, intimidated, afraid, and that it would never end, that no one cared. Those were the silent voices heard only by my heart, and I believed them. How permeating they were, to the depths of who I was, but those words no longer need to define me now. It was so helpful to begin to see what I couldn't before, yet I knew there was much more happening and there was a reason why I couldn't let go of it. A good example of how T can be so helpful.

I think I'll end with that for tonight and try to pick up about MC tomorrow.

 
Wools

 That must have been so scary for little Wools. I understand why your voices were silent except for your own heart. What a strong little girl you were to endure that time.

It is so good that you are peeling back the layers to get to this level of healing. Thank for sharing this, you are helping me recognize some things too. Sending you much love and gentle hugs, sweet Llama.

  L2T

(https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23380183_2039549722990403_4185734447224299701_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e2955590e8d90717b334f6e9d325b79c&oe=5BCDCEBD)


Indeed for as Pete Walker says in childhood, fear and abandonment felt endless - a safer future was unimaginable. Fortunately now in your adult life you can work on creating a safer environment, even when that environment contains a difficult spouse because now you are in an adult body with allies, skills and resources to protect you that you never had as a child.

Take care

The Board Parrot

Yes.     My friend, you are love and cared for.   



Plus, I mean, the Parrot gave you an origami llama!   Now that is love!

The origami llama is way cool!  |iiii Thanks Kwamina!

I'm super sad tonight. My discovery after work is that DH has been transferring $ out of the business account where he puts the money he earns from his part time job, and he's putting it into that little building that he has put so much money and time into chasing a risky investment. In the last 2 months he moved $3k. This account is the one that we have used for years to support us. It's the only source of income he has besides his small SS. He never told me about what he was doing. When I asked him he said he never thought about it.

I guess I had beliefs that it was how it had always been, and I had expectations. Maybe I was wrong to have them the way they always were.

I kept hoping he'd contribute some to the home bills. I'm struggling to get us by. Last month he put in something like $60 to home and said he was helping a little. And moving $3k?

My emotions are pretty much all I can see at the moment, yet I know whatever I feel is okay because they're just feelings, and it's how we see the world. I'm not trying to talk myself out of them. I'm just a very sad llama at the moment. 

Like in childhood I think this will never end. But there are options. May be time to split our income and financial responsibilities. Many sighs and a heavy heart.

Wools

 

I am sorry to hear this.  It must be incredibly frustrating to be working two jobs and so many hours to support you only to see him shifting money away without telling you.

I think you are wise to just sit with your emotions.  Just Be.

Oh Wools  . I am so sorry. I understand. I too have felt that glimmer of hope only to have it squashed over and over, just like in childhood. And there is a very specific pain that goes with it, isn’t there?

My heart is heavy for you. Please accept my sad puppy paw placed gently on your sweet llama shoulder. You are not alone. 

  L2T

Harri and L2T, Thank you. 

I'm better today, less sad. I went to our grandson's 5 year old birthday party yesterday and was 'reset' emotionally. I determined that nothing was going to take away from that joy.

The drive down was quiet. I had already planned that if DH wanted to talk on the 2 1/2 hr drive that I didn't want to be captive in the car as I was so often with my mom. I planned ahead and took along an audio book for us to listen to. That covered much of the drive. It's so important that I keep myself and my inner children safe to where I can walk away as needed to escape. Being in the car together doesn't allow that so well.

I wanted to talk about our MC session and let you know how that went. The T opened by asking us if we had any particular issues to discuss since last time, and I think we each brought up something. DH said he was ready with a paper he had written, and he pulled it out of his pocket, but the T kept us moving and thankfully didn't go there. DH sat with his eyes closed, slouched for much of session. The T asked at one point if he were with us.

He gave us a handout about conflict resolution and had us begin to work on it. We had a conflict come up during the previous week which worked as a perfect segue into what he wanted us to do. It was a typical conflict with the same merry go round way of working on it. We certainly got off the merry go round with this approach though. It is an approach based on the Gottman Institute of marriage. Has anyone ever heard of it?

We expressed how we felt, and he strongly encouraged us to not take on the other person's feelings but to be aware of our own. I realized after session that I had a moment when my own heart began dropping into grief as DH said what he was feeling, but then I let it go. For once I didn't hold myself responsible for how someone else felt as if I were to blame.  |iiii I cannot emphasize how powerful that is for me. When I first began my own T years ago, I couldn't separate how I was NOT responsible for how everyone felt, because I assumed it was something I had done that caused them to feel the way they did. We each have to own our own feelings.

I was overall encouraged by learning a different way to approach the resolution or discussion after a time of conflict. I suppose we'll need to tackle this most recent episode that way too. What he showed us in MC is one step. There is no instant fix.

I noticed that I fell into a typical behavior pattern afterwards though. My response over the years with conflict (and learned so well growing up too) is that once the pressure lifts from the intensity of my uBPDm coming at me, for example, I go about my day/life as if nothing had ever happened and as if all were well again. It's really a false illusion though, one in which I feel temporarily safe and don't want to know the truth that I really am not safe. I've just managed to take the bomb apart before it explodes. Then I assume safety when there are landmines all around me. Does that make any sense?

How does that apply to MC? One session and hope was instilled in me. Has my reality changed? No. DH still needs to own his stuff, I still need to keep learning what healthy boundaries are and putting them in place. I don't think it's wrong to have hope, yet I also need to be cautious that it's not false hope. If I learn skills to help me in my life, then that's good.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself well. I only see that I was ready to cover it all up and happily move on but nothing is resolved. That is what concerned me because that is a pattern that I think I need to explore. I don't want to hold bitterness against DH, but neither do I see it as healthy to just blindly go on. I am pretty sure my reaction's foundation has to do with my FOO, and how often we've mentioned that our pwBPD would go on as if nothing had had ever happened. I guess it has to do with my conflict resolution style. For me maybe the conflict is resolved when the pressure is temporarily lifted. This is new ground for me to explore.

Wools

Yeah that makes sense to my parrot senses, I can totally relate to feeling like you're living in a warzone and also becoming desensitized to it. A win is still a win though, and managing to take a bomb apart before it explodes I would definitely categorize as a win. Does not mean that you have or are going to win the championship yet, but it's still a win and each championship consists of several little wins together. Just take it one win, one day and one step at a time


I also don't think it's wrong to have hope for “Hope” is the thing with feathers - That perches in the soul - And sings the tune without the words - And never stops - at all. It could very well be that Emiliy Dickinson also had one or two parrots :) As long as the hope is based in reality, there is nothing wrong with having hope. Sometimes hope is all we have, so we definitely gotta hold on to that thing with feathers then.


This sounds like an old coping mechanism you indeed might have developed growing up in your FOO. Can you envision other ways of coping with these kinds of situations?

What is it you feel you are covering up and what would happen do you think if you would not cover it up? Would you be able to sit with and through those thoughts and feelings?

I admire all the hard work you are doing in MC with your husband. I hear your heartbreak and frustrations. You talk about once the pressure lifts, you go on as if nothing has happened. A way to prevent the feelings from piling up and ignoring them is to spend around 45 minutes a day being quietly present noticing your feelings and letting them come and go. The key is to do this practice every single day. This is one of the main things I did to overcome my family crisis which started my posting on this site. Kristen Neff and Jon Cabot Zinn have written a great deal about practicing daily mindfulness. I find that being raised by a mother with BPD taught me to ignore my own feelings and spend my days in fantasy instead of being present in the moment. You talk about not wanting to be bitter, and I really believe you will not be at some point, as you are blessed with a capacity to face the unimaginable and have tremendous compassion for others. I am learning from your posts to other members on this site how to be more compassionate and to meet people where they are in the present moment. I am thinking you will come out happier and healthier by doing MC as you have with all the challenges you have faced by growing up with a mother with BPD.

Hi Woolite!  Happy 5th to your grandson!  What a fun age.
 
  :)  This is fantastic Wools.  Differentiation!   :)

I am curious why the T did not let your husband speak.  Does he typically monopolize or something? 

Retreating into the land of everything is okay sounds very familiar.    Of course I felt safe even with land mines all around... as long as I didn't trigger one we were good   I got used to dealing with the explosions because I could not diffuse them or avoid them.  My feeling was always one of relief... .no one died, not knowing there are worse things than physical death or harm.   I could breathe.  I think the release of pressure you describe applies to or fits in here as well.  Let's poke this around a bit!

I think you having hope is good.  However this plays out with your husband, you have reason to have hope for you and your future.   As kwamina says, feathery things are good!   :) 

Is this what your T used for conflict resolution with your husband?

https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-the-six-skills/

Harri,

Closer to this although that link was excellent!

https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-the-aftermath-of-a-fight/

I think some of what I read on the site may be revised from what the MC shared with us. Both links are very good.  |iiii Thank you!

I didn't mean to indicate that DH wasn't allowed to speak up. He chose not to. The MC tried to draw him in but until we got to the handout to work on, he really struggled to interact. He was not tracking well, and it wasn't because of the MC but rather the questions, I think. The paper which DH pulled out of his pocket was most likely the summary of all his thoughts about me since we'd last met. DH doesn't always process well. It can take him 3 to 5 days to formulate his response and by then he's mulled over it enough that no argument works well against him. That's why he writes it down. I had the idea that the MC wanted to hear the summary from DH which he did, but he didn't let DH derail the session and take us down an unproductive rabbit trail.


I hadn't really thought about it that way. That's an encouragement.  |iiii



Definitely.  |iiii I think it's a good subject for here as well as with my T this week.

Zachira, .

Do you think that is why journaling is helpful to me where I write about my thoughts? Sometimes though,  I need to sit quiety and think. If I don't take a bit of time each day, things definitely build up inside of me.


Thank you so much for your kind and hopeful words. They tell me that others see me differently than I usually see myself. So many of us here struggle with seeing ourselves in a positive way at all. As hard as this MC time is for me, the stretching and growing is good. Bitterness isn't a part of me so far, and I hope I can continue to avoid it.

Wools

Quoting Harri:

Definitely this!   You are smart and strong and loving. Direct it toward yourself and follow your path. I am on a similar path but not ready to talk about it yet. I suspect you would tell me to be as loving and compassionate with myself as I am with my husband. I am simply here to reflect your wisdom back to you sweet Llama. 

  L2T

Kwamina,

So nice to hear from you my wise feathered friend! 

I like this:

It's good encouragement, thank you. We adult kids of BPD parents can be so hard on ourselves and forget to focus on the positive steps forward. Emily Dickinson would like that too.  :) Impressive that a parrot quotes poetry!   :)


I think part of what I'm covering up is the need to deal with the conflict at hand. I'd much rather live in a world of no conflict but that is a broken coping mechanism that doesn't work and isn't healthy. We didn't learn healthy when it came to conflict. My Littlest Wools is scared to death over the conflict with DH because the conflict says "uBPDm will come after me and be angry and hurt me!"  I suppose it would help me to recognize as Pete Walker has said that I've hit an emotional trigger that is a flashback to that parallel time when I felt the same as in the present. I feel as if I'm stuck in an emotional flooded place in time for now. I know it's a chance to deal with what I have not yet, but it feels like a free fall that is hard to stop. I haven't been here in a long while. It shows how far I've come that it's not very common anymore.

I try to remind her that she's not alone and not a little child anymore. My tool box is being used. Gonna take some time. I'm glad I am going to see my T soon. I had no idea that MC would trigger my Little One so much.

 
Wools

Wools, this is the ultimate crux.

Dealing with the messages I absorbed is one thing; dealing with what I saw and experienced is another.

It’s destabilizing, isn’t it? It hinders our decision making and sense of self. It’s not fair. It’s utter confusion. The positive is that you recognize the conundrum. You see the conflict. This is important, and again, another fine line that is very important. It hurts. It should. If it didn’t, we would be the topics of the threads on this site.

How do you separate what you absorbed from what you saw/experienced? I believe that this another fine line. It’s painful, but necessary. They avoid pain at all costs, only creating it. Thank you for directing me to your thread.

Hi Wools!  I'm a latecomer to this post but wanted to say that I'm proud of you for facing all of this, and for pursing MC with your H.  It's no easy task, and you should be proud that you're facing things head-on.  I'm also so sorry about the $ issue with your H - I can't imagine how stressful and saddening that must feel for you.  I'm glad you're allowing yourself to feel it though - that's a big step in itself! 

This really struck a chord with me:


I do this exact same thing.  After an argument or an uncomfortable situation, I put on a facade and pretend like things are fine.  It's as though I think that if I pretend long enough, the problem will go away and things will be okay.  I think I picked it up from my uBPD mom for sure.  If I tiptoed around her and pretended I was fine, she'd eventually move on... .for a little while, anyway.  So pretending I was safe would eventually make me "safe," even though I knew it was temporary I still was able to glean some comfort from it.  Confirmation bias at it's worst, for sure.  I didn't really realize I did this so blatantly until I was in MC with my H.  He was able to express that it made him more upset when we'd argue and then I'd pretend everything was fine and nothing had happened.  To him, it was invalidating - we had just gone through something and I was acting as though nothing had happened at all, like my memory was erased.  He saw it as childish - not feeling any negative repercussions from an issue and just being able to brush it off and forget.  In actuality, I hadn't forgotten, I was essentially just acting - but on the outside that is how it appeared.  It was really eye-opening to hear that from him and I've since tried really hard to be better about showing him my feelings and not putting on that mask as I am often so comfortable doing.  Seeing this small piece of the effects of 1 behavior made me see how often I put that mask on in my life.  I often have to remind myself that my little CC is safe and I am safe to express myself and feel whatever comes my way.

Please keep sharing your insights from MC, not only is it helpful to write out your feelings, it's helpful for us to read them and I appreciate your openness and insight.  Hugs to you, and to your little Wools

Wools,
You had a question about comparing journaling your thoughts versus sitting quietly observing feelings. The journaling helps to process thoughts and some feelings, especially if you are present and calm, and feeling your body sensations. The sitting quietly is actually observing feelings and shuts off as much as possible our cognitive mind. Observing feelings without judgment allows the feelings to move through us rather than stay stuck. The sitting quietly is actually a form of mindfulness, and journaling can be depending on how it is done.

Thank you, Zachira, that was quite helpful. I can see that each aspect is different. Observing our feelings is one of the things the MC suggested, and not to focus on the feelings of the other. Now that's a new one for me, to imagine that I can focus entirely on my own feelings. Who knew?

Tomorrow we go back for another MC session. I'm not looking forward to it though. DH and I had a rough interaction mid week that sent me spinning. The accusations, and what is real and what isn't? What's mine to own and what isn't? DH plans to cover some of this in session. My friend said to think of it as a way of helping me to know if DH will change or not, rather than being afraid of me being put on trial. Good reminder.

I did have time to step back and think over this past weekend when I went to visit our S23 and spend time with him. I felt as if I could almost forget what was going on back home. I think I was able to stay present for much of the time I was gone and enjoy my son.

Today I was thinking that if this were any other relationship other than a marriage, I'd be putting up some strong boundaries to not being around someone who treats me the way DH treats me. That was a startling thought, but also a very honest and truthful one. It helps me put our situation into a different perspective.

Wools

I think your friend is smart to tell you to look at your hubby talking as a way to gather information you can use to choose your path.  That right there puts you in a much better position Wools.  Don't go in there with a sense of fear.  Some anxiety is okay though... .use the adrenaline to keep your head clear!   

Let us know how it goes.

I would just sit with this and with everything else that is developing for awhile, so you can get to that big picture of your situation, and so you know all the options... .right now it's a fact finding mission.  I'm with Harri don't go in there with a sense of fear, how about with some curiosity instead. 

Take Care,
Panda39

Keep CALM
and be a
Curious Llama

Sorry, the Beautiful Beagle and Pretty Panda planted the meme seed in my puppy brain.  

  L2T

        Silly Pup! 

I think you guys are great cheerleaders to have.   

I went to MC pretty relaxed, and mentally kept reminding myself that I wasn't on trial. DH definitely put me on trial though, but I remembered I'd heard most of it before. I did my best to answer questions and offer thoughts when the T spoke to me but tried to be conscious of letting him run the show. He asked good questions and was quite direct with DH. At one time he looked at DH and asked how well it was going for him when he attacks me. There was no answer.

I went away feeling okay about it all, but there was no resolution. There was realization for me that DH believes what he does, regardless of anything else. He was projecting, even going as far as to say that I have bankrupted the (his) company. That was a new one for me to hear. I have not heard much from him about his thoughts in reflection since then, but I keep expecting to hear the other shoe drop and for his anger to come out because of what I shared. However, my individual T said he wouldn't be surprised if DH says nothing because he was able to put me on trial and accomplish what he intended. I hadn't thought about that, but I do know the pattern is for DH to unload his frustrations on me with accusations, and then he's good for a few days until the next need to do the same thing again. It's a pattern. I guess we'll see what the rest of the week holds.

I feel as if I'm detaching though. During the interaction at home and at the MC it was suggested by me that perhaps it's time to separate our finances. DH seems to agree. There'd be less conflict over money that way. I had the expectation that he would continue to take care of me, the way I see a marriage to be, helping one another. Yet his focus is not there but on this friend of his and the building that he is fixing up.

My T pointed out some good things to me today when I saw him. He said I'm not freezing or fawning anymore, and I must say that he is right! That was exciting to realize, and how very different than ever before!  I was feeling stupid for getting pulled into the drama with DH midweek, but I was reminded that we are going to be patient and kind as I learn and go forward. Otherwise I give in to shame. The reminders are good and help to keep me on track.

Wools

That's a good way to put it,  that when someone accuses you,  the accusee is "put on trial." 

Woolsie    It sounds like things went well.  

I got flashes of Dr. Phil asking "How's that working for ya?"  Not making light of it though.  I think it is an awesome question.  The fact that hubby had no answer says, to me, he was not prepared to be challenged.  I am glad your MC was watching your back.  

Do you both ride to MC together and leave together?  If so, how is that?  

Resolution may be slow to happen if ever.  Either way, you will have your decision and you get to determine your own timeline.  Do you think he was referring to the money you took out of the joint savings in response to his blowing an equal amount?  Sorry, I might be confusing this with a thread you did on the Law board - oops.  Sorry, I just like things to make sense.  Regardless though, it sounds like an exaggeration.  

I am so proud of you for taking your future into your own hands Wools.  That is so big and so wonderful.  

More awesome stuff to read from you:   Well, let me add my voice to your T's and say you are no longer freezing and fawning Wools!  Seriously, I have tears of joy in my eyes for you.  <dabs with a tissue>

Want to know how I view this?  |--->   Wools, we are human and interacting with people who know us and know all of our buttons just like we do theirs.  It is natural to get drawn in for a bit... .if we had no reaction to it, we would not be human.  What counts is that you did not *stay* in it.  It is not like it was some small thing he poked at.  It was a big issue.  When someone hits a sore spot we will react.  It is how we respond that matters.  And you did so well.

   

Hello Wools  :hi:


I wanted to send you some encouraging words because I know how important this stage of your life is for you ... this is huge. And like the rest of the members here I am proud of you.

I agree with what Harri said "Wools, we are human". Don't forget that you are not supposed to be perfect. Part of your journey is I think to let that idea go a bit ... Could I be correct ?

You are mentioning you don't want to become bitter towards your H. I understand what you mean, being bitter is not exactly something we want for ourselves ... yet, I'd say, don't expect too much of yourself. If you'll become bitter, you'll become bitter, and it would be human too. And it wouldn't mean you'd be bitter forever, you would work with it and overcome it.

And also, being bitter doesn't mean being angry. Being angry and admitting it can be very healthy I think. It only becomes unhealthy if we express it in an unhealthy way. I think you have every right to feel angry with your husband. It's only an emotion and there are not really any 'good' or 'bad' emotions.

xxx

Harri,


Me too. He definitely does. That being said, he does a good job of balancing but definitely is not afraid of asking the hard questions of either of us. It's interesting to me how strongly DH believes what he does about me and what he says I've done. My T says that there is some truth in most of what DH says, but it isn't the whole truth, and that's part of what makes his comments all so darn confusing to me. I'm glad others see the truth more clearly than I do because they help me along the way.


We drive separately since I am coming from work. I usually have to leave work early to meet him there. I'm glad that we don't ride together actually. I find I need space afterwards to be alone.


Yes, that would be the amount. For the first division of $ he agreed to equal amounts so that he could do as he wished with his portion. He said he'd probably take out more later, and I said then I'd get an equal amount again. He did nod his head in agreement. The problem with the 2nd withdrawal was that he did it without informing me, and it was months later that I discovered missing $ from the account. When I learned what had happened (March 2017), I reminded him I had an equal portion coming. He didn't believe I would go through with it and move it. I am 99% certain that all that was left would be gone by now if I had not moved it to safety. That is what he said caused the near bancruptcy, the fact that I got an equal portion. Actually it wasn't equal. I took less, about 15% less. He has spent all that he had and needs more to complete his project. If he starts making some $ once he finishes this little building, it will take approximately 8 to 10 years to regain just the costs of the spent money.

Last night DH said he noticed I was kind to him on several different things. He didn't say what they were, but I had to pause and think. The strange thing is that I did nothing out of my normal pattern of behavior to be kind. I am just a kind person. So it's puzzling to me, but it's a possibility that since he 'put me in my proper place,' maybe he is seeing my kindness, but it doesn"t mean there's any change. He may see me as 'deciding' to be nice to him now that he said what he did. I don't know. I suppose time will tell.


This is so sweet of you!   I was sincerely so filled with wonder when my T pointed this out to me! It's even bigger when combined with the fact that DH is my last big hurdle in relationship struggles, and I am overcoming (despite a stress fracture in my foot that truly is stress related and also having a bad cold right now-my immune system is bogged down). Not that my struggles are over, no, they will be there, but this is equal to my deceased uBPDm type of conflict interaction.


Very good point. Fie also said something that I want to ponder on,


Hmm... .to be continued.

 
Wools

I like this direct approach!


Sounds like your husband is living in Lalaland and I'm not talking about the movie.


I think it was good you stayed calm. Sounds like he basically was portraying himself as the victim casting you as the persecutor. Then not surprisingly he himself quickly moved to persecutor. Good thing is that neither you nor your MC took the bait to persecute back or rescue him. Your husband might have felt good afterwards, but all he did was expose his extreme positions on the Karpman Drama Triangle to the MC while you remained calm and maintained a neutral central position.


Sounds like your husband is having less and less of a mental hold on you, I would say that's a good thing. Separating your finances seems like a very wise move to me considering your husband's pattern of making very unwise and very solo financial decisions.


It's not pleasant that it is this way, but it is what it is. Let his focus be on fixing up his building, while you're focus is on building up yourself  I am quite certain that your investment will have a higher rate of return

 It's been a week since our last MC visit. DH has not brought up anything that I mentioned in session. He has focused on the MC himself and made some comments about him that are not necessarily positive. When someone disagrees with DH, as with a pwBPD, there is a tendency to reject back. Hmm... .sometimes it is way too eerily familiar the behaviors I see in DH. The tools I learn here are so very helpful.

I mentioned to him this morning that since we have another MC session this week that we had better talk about the dividing the finances, what that might look like. I shared by saying, "These are my thoughts" and kept it very low key. I even asked some questions, "What do you think about considering this... ." No attacks or big confrontations. The idea is to get us thinking about it without the defensiveness. He is thinking-no response yet.

A couple of days ago I was copying something and was near his computer. He told me some of what he was typing on his 'list' of things to discuss, and it was very easy to read the lines he had written down. I nearly   at the first one:

I learned my passive aggressiveness from Wools.

Perhaps I'll share more of the others later. What I realize is that these are classic projections. There are a couple of places in the Bible that say "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." I recently read something that has helped me to understand.

by Patricia Evans from The Verbally Abusive Relationship, 3rd edition.

Now I also know that part of the reason that MC has been so intense for me is because we are talking about the elephants in the room. They've been there all along, and now we are talking about them. Things are no longer avoided and hidden but open and in front of us. I expect that this week will expose more elephants as the projection continues.

Lastly I wanted to mention another step in this journey, one that is about finding belonging as is written in the book Loveable that I've mentioned in a couple posts. The author mentioned something that struck me deeply:


I find all of these words to be so applicable to not only my relationship with DH but also to that with my uBPDm. It's the radical acceptance, the letting go of what I falsely hope will be. It's focusing on me and my health and taking care of me. Some needs that we have as humans can only be found by healing them within ourselves and then we can share with others glimpses of the journey we took to find that healing. Thank you for journeying with me.

 
Wools

I applaud you in being respectful and kind to your husband while setting healthy boundaries with him. Most people behave better when in the presence of someone who respects herself/himself and others, though with people with a personality disorder, it may bring out the worst in him/her. It takes a long time to be your best self when in the presence of someone who is mistreating you. I am still working on this. 

Hi Wools.  It sounds like you are really moving along and doing well in spite of this being so hard and painful.

Alice Miller is a favorite of mine.  I read several of her books years ago and they helped a lot in helping me gain the courage to face the past and work with my own inner kids.  I also like what you quoted from the book Lovable.  It speaks to me of radical acceptance and mindfulness.

One thing to be careful with:I get it, I really do.  It seems so incredible that someone can be so clueless about their own self.  I just worry given the way your husband seems to be repressed yet controlled and deliberate.  He is not clueless.   It is hard to hide that "I nearly laughed out loud" from someone.  Again, I get it, but i am concerned for you.  A lot of times, reaching this point means you are feeling contempt... .and once that happens there is no going back (in most cases).  All of that is okay, I just want to see if that resonates with you.  Tune into your feelings and see what is going on.  

In the meantime, we are here with you.  Thank you for sharing this very painful journey and letting us see you grow.

Hi Harri,

I wanted to respond to your thought:


I looked up the definition of contempt to make sure I understood. Sometimes things go right over my head, you know. I am thankful to say that when I said I nearly laughed out loud, I wasn't meaning that I felt contempt. I was thinking of how incredulous such a comment was, that I caused his PA; nothing about looking at him with disdain or disgust. I'm glad I didn't laugh because that would not have been wise given how seriously he believes these things. On my own I can just shake my head in wonder.

Thanks for watching out for me though, and I appreciate your concern. Definitely not a wise place to go with DH or anyone else for that matter.

 
Wools

Thanks for considering my observation Wools.  Sometimes it is hard to tease out the underlying emotions.

Yes.  It would have escalated things with him regardless of your intention given how invested he is in his own beliefs.

Always Woolite. 

Hi Wools

I want to thank you so much for posting this:


I have saved this for future reference because it means so much to me, it will help me come to terms with the fact that my uBPD son doesn’t want me in his life. It will help me to let go.

Thank you so much x 

FeelingBetter,

I'm so glad it is helpful.   I also need to remember it and feel as if I need to write it on my walls sometimes. If we can learn to apply the wisdom in those words, then we will learn what it is to be free.

 
Wools

Woolsie,

I just want to tell you how your learning and thoughts inspire me... .and I’m certain, many others. 

   L2T

How's it going Wools?  Just checking in on you.

Thanks for asking. I've been hermiting (or is it waif-ing as Turkish says?). Avoiding, 'don't want to talk about it' kinda mode.

Sighs.

MC was rough for me last week. Left myself wide open to attack, but knowing that to DH they are not attacks but facts and his beliefs. I encouraged him to discuss his list with the MC and I. The first item was about finances and puzzled me, so I took a pass on responding to it, just listened. The second topic we had discussed at home briefly, but in session I learned that my being inquisitive and asking questions had put him on the defensive. The MC handled it well, addressing that DH was presuming things that I didn't mean at all. I asked questions because I wanted to know DH's thoughts, and I wasn't in a bad mood or anything when I asked them.

That led into the 3rd topic on his list. He said I had been assertive when we met with the accountant because I took the paper that was being slid over to either one of us to sign. Apparently I had an agenda to prove and was trying to be in control. (I signed it because I had signed for our son last year and figured I might as well sign for it again this year.) He said I had done this 3 years ago too with someone else. I don't remember some of what he remembers because these things are not of consequence to me. DH is not my judge, thankfully, and I need to remember that and be at peace within myself.

One evening this week he brought up the money I moved, and that I took over control of the bill paying. I responded by saying I have a need, to hear something positive such as, "Wools, you are working so hard and doing a great job. Thank you for all that you are doing." He wanted to say something positive, and I asked him to wait until tomorrow so that he wasn't repeating what I had just shared. Then he was up nearly all night thinking. A couple days later he said he needs me to say things a second time to him if I want them to get in his head.

Tonight he seemed very depressed when I arrived home from work. He said he doesn't have enough $ to finish up the electrical so he's going to take a cash advance on his credit card to pay for it. He's never done anything like that. I am concerned, very much so. I will not try to control it or step in at all.

One day during the week when my D29 and son in law were here, DH's non verbals were scary, dark and angry. I asked if he was bored (he was just standing there), but he answered no. Then he sat and stared at the table, eventually going outside to trim some bushes. That night he told me he'd had an experience that he'd never had before, and as he talked I realized he was referring to this time I just mentioned. He said he had a feeling of not caring about anything and was staring at the table. When he started working on the bushes he began to feel better. I wondered if he was disassociating?

My T reminded me that I am worthy of being treated well. What in the world do I do with that thought? I know that from my childhood I have felt that abuse was somehow deserved. It doesn't have to do with trying to accept it in order to change someone anymore. It has to do with some belief that says why would I expect anything else? I'm pondering these thoughts that need exploring. They are adaptations to my childhood and my uBPDm I know.

Wools

Hi Woolsie.  Thanks for sharing that.  I know it was hard but you did it.

Breaking down these deep seated beliefs is so difficult.  If you know nothing else in close intimate relationships you won't expect anything else.  The good news is you are learning and you are breaking down these old beliefs.  You are worthy of being treated well.  You don't need to shrink down and make yourself small anymore so that your husband can feel strong and powerful.  He is going through a big change but that is for his to learn to deal with and you are doing a beautiful job os letting him deal with his stuff.

This is so hard and painful but so worth it  It is exhausting too so keep taking care of you.  Avoiding is okay sometimes.  Just saying no I've had enough today can be a huge help.

This evening I was informed that DH went to the bank and got a loan. Small and in his name. I only listened. There's nothing for me to say.


Harri, this is quite true and a good observation. Thank you. It helps me to make sense of some of the reasons why I don't know anything else.

He asked me to attend an event with him tonight which I did. My little inner Woolsie's are all anxious because this was a place where he'd gotten after me before for being too assertive. I was merely asking questions related to my field of expertise back then, a few years ago, medical information. So my inner ones remembered that tonight and the things DH had said at MC last week. I sat off by myself and wanted to hide. If I made myself invisible would that work? 

I find myself becoming quite afraid of saying or doing anything if I am with him, or in a group with him, or even alone at home, because I will just continue to be evaluated for each comment I make, and every action I take or don't will possibly be questioned. They are strong feelings at the moment. I guess I need to sit alone with my little ones and try to see what they are feeling too and perhaps learn why.

I'm heading out of town tomorrow to visit my aunts and am glad to be going away. I don't like feeling this unsettled.

Wools

That's sad.  Do you think that your H is afraid that you'll "one up" him in social settings? Has the marriage dynamic been,  "that's my Little Wife?" Better seen and rarely heard?

I see where this is sad, but it actually makes me mad!  I'm sure it's triggering all of those feelings I had of not being able to be me, but having to conform to someone else's view of what I should be.  The pain and frustration of not being allowed to be me because I was trying to please my mother... .(bring on the Psychiatrist Couch, Panda with mommy issues    )

It makes me mad that you felt you could not be you, that you had to be a faded, more invisible Woolspinner, I get that it was to keep conflict at bay and that compromise is part of marriage but this isn't about compromising on where you will stay on vacation, or what car you want to buy... .this is compromising who you are. (and who you are is pretty darn fantastic!)

IMO who you are should not be compromised... .it took me a long to get to that realization for myself and I am much happier for it.  Why would I ever be happy being some else... .someone I'm not.  Why would I be happy having friendships and relationships with other people based on someone I'm not.  It's wonderful that they like that other person, but what about me? The real me? What about the real Wools?  I see your empathy here for your husband and his feelings (that is very Wools) but at what cost to yourself?

Okay done with outraged Panda rant... .

It's just that I think your pretty darn great and you shouldn't have to hide it for anybody!

Panda39

Turkish,

I think he is afraid that I'll come across better than him in certain settings, especially where it may be a place that he considers more his territory. I think I am seen as a non individual, one incapable of having ideas separate from those of his own.

Thanks Panda39 for this:

This really is the place I had to come to, the recognizing that I could not be myself when with DH. How far do I let that extend to? It's not a healthy or good place to be at all, and I was deeply grieving that loss of myself or the realization that I would have to give up me in order to make it work. I felt as if I was dying a slow death inside myself.

We don't go back to MC until mid Sept. I may not go back, or I may go but have boundaries that if the lists come up again, I may walk out of the room. Still not sure.

In our local newspaper yesterday there was an article about four people charged with shorting tax payments from auto sales. It's the man my DH has been involved with. This is heavy stuff, and indictments were issued for 4 people including this man who is friends with my DH and this man's wife. There are felony counts involved. I hope to ask an attorney some questions this week. I can't help but feel that there will be fallout from this for DH although he is not a partcipant in the charges.

What a mess.

Wools

This may indicate shame, like he has an issue that people may not view him as #1 as he desires to be viewed.  Insecure.  

If you're not a ringleader in that scheme,  you'll be ok.  Hopefully the investigators won't come to your home,  but even if they do you sound like you'll be ok. 

How do you feel about that? I sense that you're worried,  but are you angry? I would be given that you warned your husband about this now perp.

Hi Wools.  I am concerned and praying for you.   

Keep us posted.