BPDFamily.com

Cat, thank you for your heartfelt comment. I read about your husband forgetting your allowance in another post of yours and it did get me thinking. First, I am sorry too, that you have to experience that every month. It's not a good thing.      

Something I believe is happening with these behaviors is that we get to feel that our needs are not worthy enough for us to be respected. We are getting sort of trained to expect to not be respected in some weird way. It's not a conscious belief, it's more of an after effect. Than is turn it's more difficult for us to imagine what our lives might be like if we were free to do what we want. We sort of stay within a certain range of expectations. To me it's a difference between surviving and thriving.

When I just read your words for example, I saw immediately that you were talking about finding a suitable job, in your little town, paying a worthwhile wage. These tree conditions are not likely to be met by your environment. Same was my situation living at my spouse's house (small town). But that doesn't mean for you to not research alternative opportunities like working from home, or even like training a young help for your farm to take care of the animals when you get nearer your goal for a better wage earning job. Thing is, this whole situation is more of a journey than it is made with a bunch of hard facts. Sometimes my spouse would tell me  something about our slow economy. And I would respond to her 'I cannot afford to bother about the economy.'

Because in survival modes, well, you have to live.

So I believe that if your spouse is not supportive of you, yet you get paid every month when you ask him, it does have an effect on your sense of reality. Notwendy was touching that concept when she said that she could recover her self-esteem while going to work. For me it's more than just going to work now. It's to find, or even better to create my own sources of income. My spouse has an entrepreneurial spirit and I do have respect for that. People working in the tech industry have an instinct for that. But it goes by trial and errors.

In fact, I'm even not sure I wish to establish a pattern of allowances between my spouse and I for the long range. I'm not sure this is a wise choice. I think that as much as I can try new ideas, within a safe-ish range of exploration, she can do that as well, and we are both much happier in our life as it goes.

I would love to hear about the money managers around, what your take on this might be.

OK... I have a bit of a better idea of the dynamic.

There is some radical acceptance that I want you to think about... .think about the "impact" of this on you... going forward.

I want you to understand that when she said don't get a job... she meant it... thoughtfully... emotionally... .with all of her mind, body and spirit.

"poof"

Then she doesn't mean it...

"poof"

Then she means something else... .

It is very likely that she has the vaguest memories of feeling a different way and also very likely she feels shame or other negative emotion about not living up to her bargain.

So... I'd like you to give us a quick answer.  Where does this leave you?

I hope I remember to ask you this again in a week... month...

Radical acceptance... .

FF

Bravesun- just to clarify - my BPD mother is severely affected. Many children of such parents become “parentified” at an early age and I was. Although we are children- we take on adult roles and/ or perspectives. My father made a decent living but went into debt to provide for my mother’s out of control spending. The tension was evident in the family and we all compensated for it. When it came time to apply to college, my mother was all for the elite ones but I knew my dad could not afford it. It was my decision to apply to one that was affordable. The golden child actually tried to do the same but BPD Mom intervened and insisted he apply to elite ones and Dad would have to pay for it one way or another. You are correct that as a teen I had no experience with money management on a larger scale as an adult would but I did understand that my best chance of freedom from the BPD dynamics in my FOO was to be as financially independent of my parents as I could be. In a more expensive college I would be more subjected to the whims of my BPD Mom.

I also wanted to add that I think most marriages are uneven in terms of wage earning. I think it would not be common for two spouses to earn equal amounts if they had different jobs. When they are one family, the money is pooled and decisions about it are hopefully made as a team but I know one couple who has equal earnings and they share the house and childcare tasks equally. The most common arrangements I see are one spouse more at work while the other spouse devotes more time to home and children- if they have children or the home if they do not. Many of my female friends had careers that they put aside to do this. They don't earn a dollar wage but they do valuable work managing their homes and their families, and their husbands hopefully value what they bring to the marriage and family. I know a couple of husbands who stayed at home too.

This works, if the marriage is not dysfunctional and both spouses are able to work together to manage the family finances. Each spouse is an equal team mate. It breaks down with dysfunction and money is used as a weapon, to control, or fulfill a sense of entitlement and the spouses treat each other as unequals.

It is interesting to see what happens when the kids grow up and leave home. Some of the spouses continue to stay home and be the home manager, and others go back to work. I think it  matters less what the agreement is than how the spouses communicate and treat each other.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a parent to control the amount of money a child gets for college and also discuss how college will be paid with the child and what is affordable and decide on a reasonable budget but the child also needs to know that the parents will be good on their word unless there are circumstances that make that not possible.

So does the dependent spouse. If the spouse is uncertain if there will be grocery or rent money and the other spouse is not communicative, it is a difficult situation and it affects the relationship.

Thank you Notwendy for sharing the nuances of your experience with your BPD mom. It is very much eye-opening. I see how the situation with your mom's erratic behavior would influence the lifestyle of everybody in your household, namely you all kids' judgements on what would be reasonable. Your father must have left a solid impression on you kids for you to elect the reasonable way. I also see the erosion effect on self esteem, yes.  Very enlightening.       

For a spouse, I'm not sure about the allowance method. I like to know about the whole picture and I like to know that I am taking good decisions while managing my own money. I prefer to apply my own restrictions on myself. Sharing with someone is so different. My spouse is not used to share the whole picture of her finances. Some parts I don't have a clue. But I also see she is not willing to look at her own patterns with spending, sharing, etc. Say if she spent too much one month and doesn't like if I have a peep into it because it's still only her money at this point. It's uncomfortable.

But because there are parts of her finances I don't know about, I can see the shame coming in sometimes, maybe a part of what FF you were talking about in the 'poof'... .She'll feel shame, and be angry at me for putting her on the spot (inadvertently, by default, just by being there).

Cat, I appreciate the clarity in your description of her pattern of control. It's hard for me to see plainly.

All in all, it's true that no matter the ways we decide within the couple, it's the stability, the communication and I'd add the transparency that matters in order for the two people to feel equal. Radical acceptance... a process of many layers...

Wow!... Such good thinking going on here!...    

I realize we're getting close to the thread limit. I'll be open to some more talks about this later... Will take you on on this one FF! 

It's interesting that I (personally) am on the opposite side of the money situation from braveSun

My wife earns a salary as a full time teacher... .I haven't a clue what she spends it on.  Perhaps that is a bit strong, she does stuff with kids... but I don't ask... she doesn't tell.

I bring in much more than that and last fall I severed the last financial ties with my wife.  The only way she gets access to money I bring in is by asking nicely and gaining my agreement.

Is it a measure of control on my part... yep.  Does my wife hat it... yep.

From where I sit, I see it as the "least toxic" of a bunch of bad choices.

I haven't asked... .but should.  Is there anything "of substance" that your wife complains about.

For instance... there was agreement you could spend $100... you spent $1000 without asking and then perhaps blamed her for your overspending.

I'm doubtful that it's there, but not a detail to overlook.

Hang in there... .I bet a roomie will show up soon

FF

I think the main issue underlying most marital problems is communication and agreements. In any marriage there are the big issues to consider when two different people combine their lives together. Money is one of them. It isn't a surprise that it is a common issue in a dysfunctional marriage. Managing these big issues requires good boundaries and communication skills which are lacking in these types of relationships. If we take all the different situations down to one issue it looks like this one: agreement ( lack of).

There was no way to make or keep a financial agreement with my BPD mother.

FF's wife repeatedly broke their financial agreements.

Cat's H made an agreement with her but keeps forgetting.

I assumed my H and I were on the same page when we discussed my staying home to raise the kids and then realized we both had different ideas about the status/role of the non wage earning spouse.

Basically ( for all cases) - there is the assumption of communication/agreement on our part but it either changes, or wasn't an agreement in the first place, or the agreement wasn't kept or forgotten. I think the communication issues affect more than finances, but finances are visible and essential to survival and that brings money into the spotlight.

And... .important to understand the "why"... .the agreement was abrogated.


My wife would sometimes keep the agreement for a long time... .then (to me) it would be inexplicable as to why she "went off the reservation".  There was usually some sort of emotional upset with her family... .that she would "project" onto me and the "fix" to things was to spend money on her family or give money to them.

For her (reading the tea leaves here... .) there would be a "quick emotional fix"... .people in her FOO took their positions on the drama triangle and for a short time "everyone was happy". 

She would be honestly befuddled as to why I would be upset... because "look how happy people are" (my happiness not being considered).

This was an emotional thing and not really a "cognitive" or "thoughtful" thing.

Note:  That really doesn't matter to me... .or a banker... or accountant.  Emotions don't change math (for me anyway)

Why go through all this.  My anger and despair over this really didn't help achieve "my goals".  Boundaries "fixed" the situation (at least from my point of view), yet my wife believes things have been made worse

So... .braveSun... .my hope is you can get "clear" in your head that money is about achieving your goals.  It's not about your partners feelings.  I would encourage you to control whether or not your goals in life are properly funded or not.

That would tend to mean that you see any money coming from your pwBPD as "bonus" money... .

How does all this seem to you?

FF

I can see the similarity with my spouse. I noticed she has strong beliefs about how things should be regarding the costs of things, time it should take, etc... , and when these beliefs are not met, she gets angry. It doesn't seem rational. More like a disguised fear. In BW mode.

About the agreement, she did agree to support me while I am starting up my new life in the country, but in application, she got angry and critical very early in the process, than month to month, so the general experience did not feel like she was supportive of me. I ended up feeling like I was a burden to her. That's why I did ask her if she preferred I take a PT job quicker.

I both see your point about the dry facts of numbers, yet I find that money is very much about feelings. It's been my experience that our relationship to money has been quite different between her and I, actually it varies person to person. I tend to see that money issues are attached to feelings about personal security and also a part of identity (status). And power for sure. The need for it, the lack of it, etc...


I've been thinking hard about this for a while now. I tend to agree that it's best if I don't let her have power over my everyday like it's been (food, bills, rent). The instability warrants this. On the other hand, it's obvious that there are discrepancies in both our levels of income. And that it probably will remain this way. She will always be the one who makes more and who has more. With that in mind, I will have to think about what all of this means if I want to stay in the marriage.

I still don't know the particular of how I would like my financial life to be if I stay. I know that keeping two different standards of living would not work too well. But than, maybe more on the overall structure of the money she would share, there could be something more like I take care of my personal living expenses, and she provides more for projects or trips or other larger expenses. That might be the more simple way.

As far as today goes, well today is the one month mark of the ST. Still nothing.

  For me it was that we seemed to agree in principle, but in application she would have fits and changes of mind, than it became a battle overtime. She would say, after we were all in it, that she didn't want to pay for it anymore. Said this from month 2 on. So to answer FF as well, yes, so far she did keep her agreement, but it's clearly because she had to. As things got going she wasn't fully on board with it.


     |iiii So true. 

Really good... clear answers... things are clarifying for me.  I hope it's helping you write this stuff out.

When she talked about supporting you, how long was that for?  What timelines were talked about... .realizing that there are no guarantees.

Did I understand correctly that the 2 month point was where she started getting weird? 

How many months in are we now?

How many months in did ST start?  What would you guess triggered her ST?

Did she tell you she was going to ST for a while? 

Is this ST different than previous ones... .?  How many previous ones?

Really trying to think of things I may have missed here.

When will you know for sure if the monthly support has shown up?  (how exactly does that happen?)

Do you have a credit card for emergencies?

FF

Initially, I had an idea of the monthly budget, but didn't know the details on any credit card max amount. For a while there was not a clear amount where spending was deemed over-spending. Until it got to be. I'm speaking about one incident where she was upset that I had spent much more than her on my credit card. But, (this is where I believe her feelings came in strong) since both cards were on the same account, and she paid for both, it didn't occur to me that if I did use my card for things we did together or for the household expenses, she would get upset that I had a high amount on mine vs hers.

I think she didn't like to see that amount, and something about me spending that much more than her, that I was a big spender. It was not exactly true.  I went over every item with her and most of it was for things we spent together. We had a 3 nights stay in the city on it, some restaurant bills, some groceries, some household stuff I ordered for her room, and prescription glasses for myself. Things she would normally pay with her card. (My prescriptions are usually running higher than hers. She didn't like mine would cost more than hers.) All in all, 2/3 of those charges were not for my own personal expenses. But the bill was 3x higher than the month before.

Months later, she'd cut my credit card off, and started her campaign to refuse to buy the things I wanted or needed. For weeks it lasted...

Another time she wanted to buy a bed, and was not sure about getting some night tables that were good match for the bed. She told me to ask for a bundle price, and when I told her the price she was OK with it. Only later on, when she saw the actual charges on her card, she got angry because of the amount. To me it was not logical. I would argue with her and get upset that she would continue accusing me of being sneaky. I just had asked her!...   That type of thing.

No timelines. Just making it work.

Yes. We were in a time of the year where she historically is tighter. We both knew that.

About silent treatment. She had fits. Most of every month. Once while she was angry she said that she didn't want to speak to me again until I was having it together. I came back talking about that later on, when she was not angry anymore. Used SET than. I didn't want her anger to take away our good times together. She didn't either. It's been about 9 months now. She started ST a month ago. No warning, except that sad weekend when I went to visit her at her house to go to the show and she decided to not go and to drive me back to the city.

Triggers probably change from time to time. Sometimes I think it's just the frustration of the moment.  I am not sharing too many details of my activities because of the more details I share, the more she finds there is something I did wrong, and she'll hook into that idea. It fuels her anger. But than she doesn't get to see the progression in my efforts, so it's not very visible for her. That's a concern for me. She doesn't like to be just the one who pays, and I can relate to that. I tried to enroll her on my team a bit, but there I'm still learning on how to approach this.

There has been concerns about the people around her she would help from time to time and now that I'm here she cannot. I did SET on that as well and it seemed to help at the moment.

Another time it's that we cannot take any trips together. But when I offer her to take maybe a smaller trip nearby, we can't seem to get any ideas going. Maybe the heat now is a bit too much. (That can be another reason. We're in that time of the year where everybody's nerves are stretched by the intense heat.) She's been sharing of her feelings of depression in the mornings last month. Also that she has mood swings.

Some frustrations of her own. Contact with one of her sons, &/or her grandson can be triggering for her. Also contact with the friend who is staying PT with her.

 
Monthly support timings have been variable, but in the last few months she has deposited some money mid-month (bills time), and some at rent time. This month she didn't deposit mid-month. No credit card, only debit.

So far I have pushed the bills' due dates for this month. I will know if she does deposit before Aug rent is due.

ST that long is very rare. Only happened before a couple of times when we did have a break up. We've had smaller ones, like two days when we had arguments.

So... if you had stayed instead of agreeing to go back to the city with her... how do you think that would have played out?

FF

Not sure to be truthful. I understand that you are suggesting that by letting her drive me back I did fail a test. Like I was not there for her. Am I getting this right?

If so (or not), can you unwrap a bit more on your idea?

Brave

Sometimes agreements are in the moment, and then reality is later, like with a credit card bill.Feelings can change and if they feel like facts, that is the reality in the moment.

We have taken some family vacations, mostly places my H wants to go. Finally, when we were talking about a family trip, I said there was a place I wanted to go and we had the chance to do that. The kids wanted to go and my H really seemed to like it and be agreeable on the trip. I thought we had a nice time. Then, later, when he was angry, he brought up the cost and said " I spent $$ to take you on that vacation" and acted bitter about it. This vacation cost less than some in places he wanted to go, but he didn't bring those up. Even if he and the children enjoyed the trip, somehow, because it was a place that I wanted to go- that made the cost my fault.

He'd invite me to dinner, and then later in an argument, say "I took YOU out to dinner". Yet, he invited me and he ate too. I thought it was " we went to dinner".


This too was said in the moment, and he doesn't mean it but he did in the moment.

But he is faithful with supporting us as a family, and that means a lot to know that. What someone says and someone does can be two different things, but it is important to see what they do.

I know you care about your marriage, but your wife has left you in a vulnerable situation. You can't control what she does, but if she has decided to not speak to you indefinitely, then your next step is what do you wish to do about it. Honestly, this situation is scary to me. You need to survive- food, a roof over your head and this situation is unpredictable.

Thanks Notwendy for those examples. It's like that between us too. That's a part of why I am conflicted. When we keep interacting on the day-to-day basis, I can manage to see that as 'that's the feelings of the moment' and 'feelings =facts on those moments'. I can modulate my fears, sort of. Not that I would want to continue exposing myself to that into the future. I am trying to sort this out for me now.


In the end, she did support me through the time I've been at the apartment. Begrudgingly, but did.
 
In my case, there is drug usage that muddles these good points. She also seeks counsel with her friends and family. One of her marijuana buddies who lives with her PT has multiple addiction issues and is kind of a bully. That friend is not supportive of our marriage. It has brought another dimension to the power imbalance between us. Right now I am not taken at face value, and my spouse is definitely scared that I am here to use her for her money. I don't want to panic regarding the ST, but it is scary yes.


If the rent doesn't get paid, she will get a notice about it. She is on the lease. She knows all of that. So that will come back to her in some ways and push for the conflict to come out in the open. We'll have to communicate than.

If things come to that, I don't know what I will do. There has been a few different scenarios in my mind over the last weeks. What do I want to do next? It appears that she may be going into a strategic plan to push me out. I don't know and I would prefer to witness that it's not the case, but more of some sort of 'feeling-oriented' type of reaction, not deliberate.

If there is deliberate strategic plan, I might have to leave the country. I will than ask her for money to leave and start over back in my country. Probably not the direction she wants to take, considering the recent new start she helped with in the city.

If there is not, I will see if and how much communication is possible, than take it from there.

Again, she might deposit money. There too, she might not deposit enough, and I might not feel solid enough to get another roommate on time for the beginning of the month. If that's the scenario, communication will have to be made. 

For now I don't know more.

I prefer to stay out of catastrophic thinking.

There is no way to know for sure... .and I can assure that the "thinking" likely won't make rational sense.

My gut says you "validated" abandonment fear on her part.  She "shooed" you away and "you ran"... .which "confirmed her suspicions" that you really didn't want to be with her.  I mean... if you loved her... you would have "fought" to stay by her side... she likes the city more anyway... .I'm not worthy of being loved... .and see how easily she walked away from MY show... .with MY art... .she didn't want to go anyway... .I knew it... .she only moved her to take my money... .because she doesn't want to be with me... or see my art... or go to my show... .

She even "made" me sleep by myself... .knowing how much I like to cuddle... .I can't believe I've been tricked again by someone that pretended to love me... .

Should I go on?

Again... clarity... .this is "reading the tea leaves" and we'll never know what she was thinking/feeling.  She probably doesn't remember either

By going along with it... "you" owned the abandonment.  If you had stayed and gone to show (alone even) and she ran away to the city... ."she" would have to own the abandonment... .and I don't think she would have done that.

Note... .she likely wouldn't have appeared happy if you stayed... .but I think (again best guess)... that she would have not triggered a big abandonment thing.

I get it... .I get it... .she "caused" the abandonment with her words... .that doesn't matter to her

FF

There is VERY LITTLE chance she has a strategic plan... .

It appears to me she is very reactive... that tends to be problematic for planning.

So... .if you don't have anyway to leave the country... you need to get one... .that you can fund... and you need to keep that private.  NO DISCUSSIONs whatsoever with your spouse.  Zero... zip... .nadda... . 

This should never be a threat... .it would just be something you do because it makes sense for you.

Is it possible you can earn some income and keep that private?

FF

Unfortunately I can totally see her hanging out with her pot buddy and through the smoky lens of disappointment and paranoia, talking about how you are taking advantage of her. I know you are waiting for her to contact you, but my thinking is that rent will soon be due and if you get in touch with her now, instead of at the end of the month, it might be a better strategy.

If she thinks you've abandoned her and neither of you has reached out for a month, I'm not sure that waiting for her to contact you is the best strategy. This is a tough one. You don't have any connections who have been in contact with her to give you a birds eye view of what she's been talking about or thinking. So you're flying blind.

What do you think about interrupting her silent treatment?

I'm with Cat Familiar on this one. 

How have other STs ended

Thanks FF, that shines a light in some ways... I used to say that she was 'discouraged' and 'giving up' pre-emptively on the relationship when we had arguments and she would pull back. But they in general didn't last that long. I do think that living separately does not help with the reconnection part.

I may have a hard time to see 'abandonment' there, because I tend to think that for her it's more that she 'feels treated unfairly' by me. Like 'not a good enough partner'. Than going outside of the relationship to find counsel on the situation at hand. She seemed to be rather independent and competitive than. She has good friends and is very charismatic. There is triangulation potential there. True triangulation, or simply it takes time for her to digest the feedback they give her. 

But there in your example, ... .I must admit that I have a curiosity for this more.

It's damned of I do, and damned if I don't. I did call her 4 times I remember within the last month. Twice after 6 days of silence, and twice again after 2 weeks. She didn't reply. Today I thought about sending an email with the info about the amount I'll need for Aug 1. Not pretty, if I don't find a roommate, possibly OK if I do.

If I do contact her, most likely she will think that I am doing this because money is my only motivation. Aka, I email her because it's time to get money from her.

So far I'm new to this ST thing while I am at same time dependent on her. It's not that I don't wish to reconnect. I thought I had to wait for her to contact me back since she initiated it. I agree I'll have to communicate with her at some point, like as in LC fashion.

Cat, I much prefer to contact her a week before the deadline, yes. It's more my usual way. I'd talk about it over the phone when I would see that I will not have enough for an upcoming due date.

In a long ST period in the past we were in a breakup and I was living in my country, had my own job, etc...   It was hard to live with, lots of grieving for sure, but I was not dependent on her for my subsistence.

On the small scale ST, it was merely just times we used to take care of ourselves when we were in disagreement, so that we would return to communication after a while. Now I don't know quite what to do.

FF, ST ended after several months with a nice card she sent in the mail, than I called her, and than we resumed talking everyday.

Another time I remember was near the beginning of our relationship. We were in limbo very much at times because I was in the country on work visas, applying for permanent residency back than, but there were serious obstacles at times, and there were break ups because we would not see a future together.  One time I was very sad to have to be working far away from the city. She, had a home in the city, and I missed the opportunity to come and play, besides missing her. I decided to take an apartment in the city because of being so bored. I responded to an ad, and the landlady met me at the apt for a visit, than told me once we met that the apt was rented, but she had another one just opening she thought might be interesting. I followed her, and it turned out the apartment was lovely, and located three houses across the street from my spouse's home. So after I moved in, I connected with her and invited her to come see my new home. She loved that, naturally... We both did.

Such a good question!... Here  I am, not very much in a good position right now, but that was a good time than!...

Another time was a month last fall. I was the one who left. I had contacted her a few times within that month however. ST maybe lasted 2 weeks. Than we tried to talk.  The reconnect was that I asked her if she wanted to try to discuss our difficulties to blend our lives better. She said no. I than asked her to pick me up to come back home, so I could search for a place to go at the end of the month. Than I decided to go to NO and she got interested in helping me get started in the city. We had a good time with the nesting part. As it turned out, the apartment is lovely and is located 5 houses from the home she used to own back than (she sold that house about 18 years ago).

Yeah!...   Looks like I need inspiration right now, hey?...

 

What if you show up in person and say, “I miss you.” What do you imagine that would be like?

I need a car to go there. I don't have a car now. One of her friend who lives nearby has a car, but she has gone to her sister in another state. I'm not sure she is in town.

I used to do that when I had my car before. Would drive there. Now when her smoking buddy is on the property I'd rather not. That's another limit on my spontaneity.

If I did contact her friend, she may or may not offer me to drive there. I wouldn't want to impose on her too much. I know she would not hesitate if my spouse was in an emergency. But for me to just go, she might not be so inclined.

It's kind of a big day, driving back and forth to the house.

But if I get access to a car, I think it's not a bad idea to go visit her.

Might not work for now.

Tell me more about that ST.

What started it?

What did card say?

Did the "reason" for the ST get talked about and "solved" or "understood"?

FF

The ST started when she came over to my home in my country to tell me that she was having an affair with a long time friend. We broke off.

It was a very nice card. A painting. And there were sweet words about our relationship over the years. A bit poetic. And she asked if I thought we had a chance again.

The reason for the break off was solved than. She had ended the affair.

Understood by her, yes. By me, overall yes. But I remained cautious.

This has all happened in the period we were in early recovery from a natural disaster. So there are vulnerabilities there that I would say are not necessarily resolved. Like recurring fears.

 

Brave -
I feel your pain with the dealing with the silent treatment.  It is one of the most painful things to deal with, at least for me.  The part that I find most difficult is that there is no set timeframe even when one is requested.  I find it extremely rude and disrespectful as well.  Over the past several months I have been able to start to focus on myself and doing things that make me happy when this starts happening.  It is not easy by any stretch but I believe it is beneficial.  I am usually consumed with anxiety due to whatever the conflict is and I just want to get it resolved and move on but she insists on laying in bed and not saying anything or simply stating that she has nothing to say.  I am able to start to preoccupy my mind by staying busy with a hobby or spending time with the kids, though the conflict never really leaves my mind.  It ends up causing more hurt for me when she snaps out of it and acts like everything is fine.  I have waited days if not weeks to talk and resolve things but suddenly everything is fine and the fact that I have left her alone for however long means nothing.  I guess just focusing on me and trying to realize that things are not going to change helps keep me a bit more calm.  As far as your anniversary, I don't remember the last time we celebrated ours.  We have been married 18 years and every year she states that she has not interest in celebrating x years of misery.  This year, I didn't even bring it up... .it was just another day.  Good luck and keep your head up!

Part of "dealing with" or "creating a strategy for" dealing with a pwBPD is to understand patterns.

OK... .so that was a significant silent treatment with a significant "reason" behind it.  While I don't know lots of details, it appears she owned this, reached out... .you appreciated this and cautiously re-entered the relationship.

Did you both consider the affair solved?  Reconciled? (whatever word you want to use).

OK... .between this significant ST... .and the current ST... .how many STs have their been, how long.  How did they end?

I think one or two sentences should suffice, unless you know something is significant.

for instance ( a two week ST happened a year ago because she was mad I let her dog run loose.  She figured out I had nothing to do with her dog getting out and reconnected with me.  We both agree we moved past this)

Patterns I'm looking for.  Do the STs end with "most" loose ends tied up.  Or do they end with with cover up and not talking about it.  If it is 50/50... .I'm even more interested in details to figure out "why" sometimes you can clean up a r/s mess and sometimes you can't.

Big picture:  I am still a fan of proactive action, however we need to be careful how to present it.  Relationship first and details (money) last.

I'm trying to figure out a SET where the support and empathy is talking about the relationship and missing the closeness and the "truth" is that in a marriage there are "business details" to handle.

Thoughts?

FF

The affair was solved in the sense that she ended it and we got back together later. It was not fully resolved in the sense that I was not buying the reasons she gave me (it was not her fault, she had taken too many hormone supplements). So that took a chip off my full trust.


Since that time, there have been plenty of small silences when we did have arguments once we started to live together. But those were just 'take personal space' small breaks, not punitive moves. We were encouraged to take time off of each other, so we could regroup. That was OK.

I'd say 3 occurences would qualify as ST.

One was when our communication went down over an expense I needed her to take care of, while waiting for my immigration papers. She did go ST for maybe 2 weeks, than accepted my budget list and paid for it. The expense was something out of my control, not my fault. Resolved.

Another was when she started to 'disappear' from home, for hours at a time, and would not respond to my phone calls. Than came back home and we would not talk to each other until the next morning. This would recur at least once/week, sometimes several days/week for maybe 3 months. This never got resolved because she did feel angry at me for requesting that she lets me know when she left for long, even though she stopped doing it eventually. That took another, bigger chip off my trust.

A third time was when her son came for a visit for a week. Normally we talk everyday or every other day, and while she had her company, she would briefly say hello, and than say she didn't want to talk too much now, something like that. But at that time she stopped answering my calls for days. Maybe 5 days. It was not that long, but it was the breakdown of our communication and the brooding vibe that made it ST for me. There too she resumed the regular flow of communication after her son left, but the issue was not resolved for me. There too, another chip.

So for 3 ST, all of the conflicting behavior stopped, but 2 were still unresolved for me because I could not fully trust her after that. I would let it go later, and we would have nice time together again, each time, but I could never let my guards down completely.


I can't forget that she can just ignore me abruptly, than doesn't apologize nor recognize my truth/experience in these situations.

Even if the behavior stopped, I am left thinking that the behavior can start again any time, and that what I want for a relationship I will not get.

No accountability for hurting my feelings and reserves the rights to do it again at her convenience.

Thanks Woodchuck.
 
If there is a set time, or at least some form of check-in from time to time, that is more acceptable because than our loved ones accept that our experience counts as well.

I am thinking about that now. It's painful at times to come to terms with that. One more layer of radical acceptance...

 

Brave

Well I did send an email today. I finally thought about her last email. She had sent photos. So I did that today. Went for a photo walk in our neighborhood and while I was sent her some.

Can you share the email... with names redacted of course?

I'm looking for places where you are inadvertently inflaming things.

FF

On the more immediate note- when is your rent due? What is the very last possible date to hear from her if you will have rent money?

From my own observation, pw BPD tend to push at boundaries until their fear of abandonment kicks in. I think they can sense when they have gone too far, and then can revert to "nice". Does she know the due date for the rent? She may stay in ST right up until that.

I also think you have to have your own limits about how much of this you will tolerate. She may do this from month to month- hang on until the last minute and change her mind, or miss the due date and continue the ST. Waiting on her decision eaves you in limbo. I know you don't want to get into catastrophic thinking, but a game plan for what to do if she does not come through with rent money isn't just that, but a contingency plan. I know you are looking for work, but a contingency plan could be you moving out as well- with a room mate to share costs, or a less expensive place, or even another place somewhere else.

Is her name on the lease? If so, she's also on the hook for rent money.

The email I sent yesterday.
 
Title: 'Summer things'.
Body copy:
'My walk today...
Brave'
I attached 2 photos. One from a tree, and another from saplings of the tree the neighbor gave me to take home. The second pic was taken from home.

Was this the email you were asking for?

Brave

Rent is due on the first of the month. That's Wednesday. She knows. Yes, her name is on the lease. And on the electric bill.

So there is a chance she'll snap back, yes.

I agree with the point you make for me to not being putting up with that for much longer. Sadly, once I get a survival job, I'll have a bit more leverage for what I want to do. I expect she'll act this way all the way till I get that job, yes.

If she doesn't "snap back"... .don't save her from the consequences of her choice to not communicate.

Also... don't nag her and express anxiety.  One or two succinct communications isn't nagging... we can help.

Big breath... .what does that mean for you?

If she pays... .this issue dies.

If she doesn't... .(fill in the blank)

FF

If she doesn't, that means we can't be friends within our marriage.

Or, not in the same way as when I did take my vows. I'll have to consider this and think more about what the relationship means to me, with the new information in.

Brave

My bet is that she pulls through at the last minute but also harbors some resentment. Yes, she agreed to the arrangement- and in that moment, really meant it but PBD feelings are all over the place. How people handle money is a reflection of their values and feelings- some are generous, some are stingy, some save, some are spendthrift. Money issues are common in BPD relationships because of this, independent of how much there is.

I've observed this with BPD mom and who she relates to. With my father, she controlled any money he gave us. Now, she is widowed and has enough to live on, and her emotions and relationships influence what she does with it. She has both controlled and been generous with her employed helpers- they have taken advantage of her at times and she has also controlled them with "bonuses". She sends her grandchildren generous checks for birthdays, holidays. She is trying to "buy" their attachment to her. (They aren't attached to her.) and if she is angry, threatens to not send gifts at all.

One of my siblings fell on tough times and she helped him financially, but also was emotionally abusive to him. I know she would not ever leave him hanging but she did the push-pull with money with him- giving him money and then berating him for needing her. Constantly being critical of his job choices. She's changed her will so many times that I don't even know who is in it or not and have no expectations but she will write us in or out if she's angry at us. He eventually found a decent job where he doesn't need her, but she still is critical of the job, says it isn't good enough.

The honest truth is that she does love him. She is very attached to him, and on one hand sincerely doesn't want him to be without food or shelter, yet she also can't manage her resentment at helping him and it is reflected in how she manages the money with him. She's also afraid of abandonment- so she pushes him just far enough and then gets scared and then is generous.

Think about money... .what does that mean for you?  And... to be clear... she has not come through before... right?  So... .if she doesn't come through... .is it fair to say we have a pattern that will most likely keep repeating.

FF

Wow!... Notwendy. This is so much like my spouse!... I thought you were describing her.


I always wondered if the word 'generous' could be correct in such case. For people outside it could certainly look like it's a generous gesture, maybe to even give more than he might have asked her. But from inside the relationships, this keeps the power dynamic on her side. Because both the withholding/over-reaching causes for him the (subconscious) hook. Expectation that 'there is cause', because 'there was more' than expected to begin with. And you can see how that ties into her thinking that his 'decent job' was not enough. There is a link there, between her expectations for his performance, and his expectations for his standard of living.   

Both people lose with this because both people end up feeling he is not good enough. 

In our case, she seemed to be doing something similar. But between spouses, that's not OK. I'd rather see a fixed amount being deposited every month to cover fixed/recurring expenses, and have a check-in when there are changes happening (ex, a job offer, bringing in x amount for now, so lower the deposit until notice). Than no resentment, but some sense of opening for what we as a couple can do to make both our lives better. Also expand room into the budget to include equal discretionary moneys for both spouses. Where each spouse knows that there can be enough to take care of ourselves when we are not in sync, or when we need a break from routine, etc... A straightforward and supportive approach has a much better chance to put the lower income spouse in the driver seat on her/his earning potential.

As far as I see now, it's kinda pie in the sky for us...

Yes. The pattern is so far, she has come through, like Notwendy said, but berated me for needing her support. I expect that she will repeat yes.

I'm still struggling with the she said/she said, because that has implications on how I want to be treated in the future.

Regarding money sharing, I do see that she gets what she wants in the end. I get off of her finances. She told me so once. But in terms of the relationship. It will take me a while to come to terms with my own meaning. I am good enough. And I will be able to manage my own finances like I did for so many years before I got in this situation with her.

My respect goes to Notwendy, and to all people who underwent this kind of treatment from childhood into their adult years... . 

One aspect of this is really sad. It's that if she did have a plan for me in her will, and she did feel righteous about pushing me this way, than she also changed her mind many times, and as an end result, the trust I once had in her is not finding grounds.

A second sad aspect is, if she did have not enough money to support me, and she did care truly about me and the relationship, she would not resent me. Or many just a few times, the time to learn about the way things are, vs the way she thought they were. There we would buckle down together.

This whole story is not about her money being 'her money', thus she can do what she wants. It's about emotion regulation issues getting entangled with the on-going support she gives people. This affects only people who count on her, when they do.

One shots off are fine. She is even generous, yes.

My guess is she comes through as well.

It would appear in the past she has been late here and there.  You are still early in this dynamic.

I'll start with "full disclosure" about my r/s and finances.  There was a time... 15 years maybe 16, where my wife had access to everything I had... .EVERYTHING.  Think about it... .part of the checklist to deploy and go to sea is to make sure people have powers of attorney... whatever is needed.

There was overspending here and there... .and other things came in well under budget.  Sometimes things happened that I could have fixed inexpensively if I was home, but she would have to hire out because I was gone with the Navy.

Anyway... .things were normal until BPD showed up.  I kept thinking it would go away.

I would make an agreement... she would break it.  Some agreements would last a year... .some a week.  Since her first act of "financial infidelity" (running off with $30k... .from a joint account to her account... .with most going to her family) there has been NO AGREEMENT she has kept.

So... .I stopped making agreements.  All of "my money" (that comes in under my name), is fenced off.

BraveSun, I really hope it never comes to that for you.  But keep an eye on things and keep this in mind... .when future agreements  are discussed.

If most of them are kept... then sure... make more.  If an agreement being kept is rare... .I would advise stopping making them.

FF

Thank you Bravesun. It was quite the lesson growing up.

I lived in the dorms my first year of college. My parents expected me to come home for the summer. I am my mother's "black child" but I was also useful to her, helping around the house and had become her emotional caretaker. I had other ideas. I found an apartment that I shared with some other students and found a job that barely covered my expenses and told my parents I was not coming home for the summer. She was shocked but couldn't do a thing about it. I was over 18, and could pay for it.

She controlled every penny my father gave me. Once in college I was out with my dad and I saw something in a store I wanted- It was a music tape- cost about $5. My father could have easily afforded that. I was already on my own and so it wasn't a matter of a kid wanting something they didn't earn. I told him I wanted to stop and buy it. The first thing he said was " Did Mother say you could buy this" and I replied " I have my own money Dad, and I can buy it".

I was a broke college kid, living in an apartment with no furniture with a bunch of kids my age with low paying summer jobs, but I was free from my mother's control.

I didn't cut contact with my parents- I still had a relationship with them. They also still helped me with college some but I wasn't subjected entirely to my mother's changing moods. This is one reason I encourage you to get something to bring in some money. You still have a marriage and other things to work out, but if you have some income, that element of the dynamics will be relieved.

Thank you so much, Notwendy and FF, for sharing your own experiences with pwBPD and money in your life. It really makes a whole lot more sense to hear the backstories and the values you stood behind. I will walk into this with a lighter heart because of you.

 


How would I do this now, to signal her that I will need her help for this month. Like, just a de facto email with numbers and a date?

Brave

 
Didn't you just send her an email?

Tell me about the last couple times you reached out.

We can go from there.

I've got a couple ideas, but want to make sure they are in context.

FF

Yes. I sent 2 pictures yesterday. No answer.
Before that I sent her a card around our anniversary 2 weeks ago. Email card. No answer.

Before that I called twice 3 weeks ago. Left voice messages and told her I wanted her to call me back. No answer.

Before that I called twice 4 weeks ago, and had a tenant check on her because of no answer. She sent the photo email at that time and I didn't email back than, just called her and told her that it appeared she was not answering my calls. I told her that this increases my anxiety than.

To be truthful, I don't think I did contact her only for money so far...

So... .you actually spoke to her 4 weeks ago... last time?  Right?

FF

You are kind of between a rock and a hard place. Of course you want a relationship that includes more than money and you want to speak to her for various reasons. But money is one of them, as you two have an agreement. Now, with her not speaking to you, you aren't able to communicate for any reason and the rent is about due. So if you do contact her about money, well, she can then say " that's the only reason you contact me".

She can think what she wants. There is no point in JADE or even validating that - you can't change her thinking and if she believes it, that's what she chooses to believe.

If her name is on the lease and utility bills- then she knows when they are due. I would bet she may come through on these last couple of days. If she doesn't then you have some decisions to make - quickly. Even if she does, this is possibly going to be a pattern from month to month.

She isn't going to change, but how you will deal with this is up to you- how many times you are willing to try to reach out for her or to get her to honor the agreement she made with you before you take action in another direction- move out of this apartment, etc. When is the lease on it up?

What FF's wife did can be called "emotional infidelity" which is a breach of trust between two people on handling money.

My relationship with my H is a bit different. He is very traditional- probably more so than I am with roles in the family. When we met, we were in school, then each had about equal paying jobs. As I understood, we both agreed that I would have the primary responsibility for home and children and work part time when babies can along so I could be their primary caregiver. He was very invested in his career. We both agreed that having a mother home with the children was an important value.  I have worked full time, part time, and also stayed home at various times in the marriage.

I would say he has kept his agreements to us, and I am grateful for that, but the resentment has been evident. It was hard to ask for any extras- like camps for the kids, and I paid for that out of my earnings as I didn't feel comfortable asking or discussing it. The issue was not who paid- I wanted to contribute. The issue was that I feared asking or discussing money with him because of the resentment.  

There was also an incident of "financial infidelity" on his part . I thought there was an error on the bank statement which turned out to be a large purchase by him. There was no discussion, he just did it and didn't say anything. When I was upset about the lack of communication, his response was "well it is my money, I don't have to explain it".

If he takes us on vacation where he wants to go, he's fine with that but if I mention I want to go somewhere, he resents it. I used to plan dates and activities for us, but I don't much now as I don't want to hear the resentment.

As was mentioned - money may be the topic but the issue isn't as much about money, or the amount of money, but that money becomes an avenue for expression of emotions and dysfunction- resentment, inability to discuss issues. Money is tied to power in a relationship. He earns it, he has the power. Ironically, it was reversed for my parents. Dad earned it, my mother had the power of it.  The $5 tape I wanted was easily affordable to my parents. My Dad could have easily said " I'd be glad to get this for you" and put a big smile on my face for all of $5 but this is not how things worked in my family.

We do bring our own FOO issues into our relationship which makes me very sensitive to emotional issues surrounding how money is handled. Most likely I was tuned in to the issues in my marriage while my H didn't think anything was wrong with what was going on. Thankfully, he finally has begun to understand that the violation of trust with the money missing did affect the marriage- we do communicate better when it comes to expenses, but I tend to be on high alert with these types of issues due to how I grew up.

I also wanted to mention that I felt responsible for the resentment and worked really hard to hold up my end of the agreement, in hope that he'd see the value in that. That is my own co-dependency- trying to prove my own value that was already pretty diminished from my FOO. It's a tough thing to do, but I feel I have done my best to do good for my family and I think the resentment more his issue than anything I was responsible for. It's tough to be seen as the "cause" of that though.

No. I called a little over 4 weeks ago because I hadn't heard from her in a long time (5-6 days). I didn't speak to her than, left 2 voice messages.

Last time we spoke was June 24th, day after she gave the ride back to the city.

Thanks for sharing this Notwendy... So much to think about.
 
Yes, I saw myself developing a fear of asking her for money. I even went to the wire with pantry and fridge empty and had to come post here just to get my own self-esteem back to a decent level with this. Now with the ST it's hard on me for that aspect.

And yes, I do feel like I have to prove myself to measure up to my spouse's standards, but it's a set-t-fail proposal in this case. I cannot let her set the tone on what's enough or what's too much in my life. Her judgements are driven by her negative emotions, possibly resentment, as you so kindly express. 

I think for me the idea of 'generosity' has done me in too many times. As friends, yes, it makes sense to see her helping a friend at times when they are in a pickle as being generous to them. But as a spouse, this positioning has to change. I see her telling me that other people in her life need her help and that with including my needs in her planning, she cannot help others as much like she used to. It's affecting her in her sense of identity somehow. She is seen by many people as someone who has money, therefore they'll ask her if in need. Thing is, some of them are feeding substance addictions, she is taking drugs herself, those are her habits she'll never admit may be affecting her judgements, finances, relationships with others, marriage, etc...

It's not that I care with that much intensity when I'm not around her. It's just a factor that does not allow me to see any kind of sensible stability in her finances in the future. You can't compete with drugs. They take everything. They affect the brain so that addicts won't desire normal ranges of pleasures of life in a real intimate relationship with a human being.  If I'd give up my own life to taking drugs myself maybe I'd feel no loss. But I don't use drugs. I value sobriety.

To be honest on the drugs issue, my partner has a medical prescription but she was taking recreational drugs as far as I could observe. There has been breaches of trust pertaining to that. More recently, since a few months, she shared that she had moved to only taking CBD oil, which could be a better way of doing it. She seemed to have toned down her usage a bit. 

Not that it always was this way between us. I'd say it became an issue for me after the disaster, when I saw that it was impairing her judgement on situations affecting our meetings together. She made poor choices a couple of times, and as a result could not come live in my country with me part of the year as I had wanted her to.
There a chip broke in my trust of her.

The idea of intimacy and trust is that over time we feel our partner is not doing things that put us in harmful situations or in situations of loss. She used to self-monitor her drug usage much better than she is now. I'm not surprised. Many people's kinks went over the roof in the years after the disaster. Because of what a disaster is, the trauma is across the board for everybody, so there are many painful discrepancies going on at same time in our lives. Everybody has suffered considerable material and emotional losses. Everybody. Including me. So we are somewhat bound to this common condition in our communities. That doesn't mean things are healthy.  Lots of boundary violations and enmeshment around my spouse. I have my own struggles with that too.

When you spoke about your sensitivity, I saw the same between all people around my spouse and me. If I don't take a survival job, than because some other people who are still living in survival mode around us, we do feel somewhat responsible to adjust our attitude and expectations.

For now, my coming down here has seen me processing a lot of my own losses, due to the disaster. It's like a sort of life review if you will. Many people around us have been there already, and they have moved on materially, so to speak. But did not necessarily process the emotional part. It's easy to get enmeshed into what other people think of me, my performance at finding a job, the costs of the apartment, my absence from her house. It's actually not my job in life to satisfy all the people my spouse loves. I think going through these pressures and staying being me, being enough the way I am, is a tremendous teaching.

But going for thriving into ones' life, ... .? What I am processing now is how easy it is for my spouse to gather support to her cause because of other people counting on her help as well. I cannot accept to submit into a life of survival.  I've had enough of it with the years we were separated as I was alone in my own country. We did have some good times together, and I did have some rough times back alone in my country.

Notwendy, I do have an appreciation for the suffering this dimension of growing up with a parent wBPD can bring. It is indeed a monumental teaching. Once you have decided to take your financial life into your own, you have decided to make the best of your situation with the means you had at the time. In your marriage too, you decided to make the best of it, under the circumstances of your H's resentment. You coped, and in a way maybe through your work for your family you thrived in these difficult situations. You in turn have gained a lot of wisdom regarding the nuances of human nature.

FF, I have drawn a draft for an email I want to send tomorrow morning. Just because of what you mentioned, I want to see if that would fall into what you had in mind with succinct communication.

Basically, only financial info on the help I'll need, and date when it's due. To make sure she doesn't deposit just a part of it, in case she thinks I found a roommate. Didn't yet.

Form goes like this:

Hello Mrs Brave,
August is this week and I have not found a new roommate yet. Here is the help I'll need from you this month.  Total: $$

Breakdown here:
-  rent                     $$
-  jul bills                $$
-  aug bill               $$
-  deposit return   $$
-  foods & phone  $$
 TOTAL                  $$

Next rent due: Aug 1
Next bills due: Aug 3

I am hoping to be able to return the new deposit from new roommate, and the amount I'll get for August if you need.

Thank you for your support
Brave

Personally, I would stick with facts and not promises as those could be misinterpreted.

Also, if you did find a room mate and your wife then cut you off or cut contact with you, you might choose to hold on to the deposit as you may need it for your survival. I do think you should pay it back when you have some stability from employment, but it may be all you have to survive on until then. If she asks for it back,then you should give it to her.

You can also be honest with the situation from your point of view, not mentioning her side of things, but how it looks from your end " I haven't heard from you" is different from " you have not written me back".

If the deposit return is if you have a room mate, leave it out, as you don't know when/if you will find one.



Dear Mrs Brave,

I hope you are well. I have tried to contact you several times but have not received a reply. I hope to hear back from you.

As it is the end of July, I am writing to remind you of the upcoming expenses. I do not currently have a room mate.

These are the bills and the due dates:
  Total: $$

Breakdown here:
-  rent                     $$
-  jul bills                $$
-  aug bill               $$
-  foods & phone  $$
 TOTAL                  $$

Next rent due: Aug 1
Next utility bills due: Aug 3


Please let me know if you will be depositing funds for these expenses. Thank you for your support
Love, Brave

Full disclosure:  ST is not something that I've had to deal with.  Many times I end ups wishing for ST (bad joke... .but gives perspective)

I have a very different take on this, but... .keep in mind my lack of direct experience with ST. 


Mrs Brave,

I’m perplexed by the silence between us.  It would mean a lot to me if you could share your thoughts about the timeline for us to reconnect.  I miss our time together.


(I would not to “love you miss you”... etc etc... perhaps something like “best” or just sign your name.  )  (goal is to express desire without “pushing” or triggering push pull)

(your name)

So... .I am a real estate investor... .I would find it condescending and insulting to be "reminded" of monthly obligations (granted... I've never ST'ed anyone).  My understanding is your wife fits in this category of  owning quite a bit of real estate. 

My guess is she is quite familiar with leases... right?

Your wife is an adult, she knows your capabilities... .she knows hers.  She knows the impact on you of withdrawing support.  No nagging or reminding.

If it gets close to the 15th... I would ask for her ideas on how this goes forward.  (but again... no reminding)

If in the future you decide to take your own action due to her ST... .don't inform her.  :)on't ask her... just do it.

Anyway... .thoughts?

FF

Thank you Notwendy and FF for your inputs. I just sent an email, worded as Notwendy suggested. I decided to send a 'reminder' because:

a)  I do see that she has not deposited for bills mid-July (while in ST).
b)  I needed her to know that I have not found a roommate yet, and
c)  I owe the deposit back to the last one. That deposit was used to pay my share of rent on another month when my spouse didn't deposit for rent. I had elected to not push on the issue back than because it was my spouse's birthday, wanting to let her have a bit of a break.

So this time there were more expenses to address.
A deposit is due, and July's bills are not paid yet.

d)  Oh, and about 'reminders'. She does that all the time, when I ask her for something, to remind her later when it's time. She can sincerely forget, just as much as she can pretend to forget, and than get mad at you, both.

Yes, I hear you FF. I too, don't need to be reminded to get rent on time. If she doesn't, we both will get a reminder from the real estate cie.   

It will be the second time within 6 months if that happens.

She knows, and she is also 'rebellious' to the idea that she is somewhere responsible.

I'll keep silent on the reminders thereafter. I had to make sure I made things clear first.

I like that. I will not want to send that while there is a money situation pending.

Open to more comments...

And... .I would not want to put "money" in front of the relationship.

Make it about the relationship... .and communications.  She knows you have needs... .you know it... .you are asking for input on how to handle the relationship in general.  It could be talking, money, taking walks.

Don't give money more power than it needs to have.

The relationship is more important than late fees... etc etc.  If you get close to the 15th of the month with no response, then... .I would advise you to send a different email, especially if you send this one with NO response.

That being said... .if money is more important to you than the relationship, perhaps let me know and we'll make a different email.

No judgment from me for either decision... .let me know.

Again... keep it in perspective... .let's keep "first things first". 

FF

 I had a different impression from the situation. I didn't get the impression that money is the main motive for the relationship but survival-  food and shelter is an immediate concern, especially when there has been no communication from her in over a month. If she is not going to honor their agreement, then he needs to know to make other plans

Paying the rent isn't the only concern, but it is the most immediate concern and sending a " I miss you honey let's talk" when he needs to know "what will happen about the rent?" seems disingenuous. She's going to see right through that and feel it isn't sincere.

It is my own opinion, but I feel that direct communication- limited to one concern per e mail- is most genuine, not trying to sugar coat the fact that, if she isn't going to help him, he needs to know that. The e mail was not only a request for funds as agreed on, but also for information. it was- "these are the expenses and according to our agreement, I need to know if you are on board with this."

She has the choice to say yes or no, and also nothing, but nothing doesn't help with making a decision.

It's been a month now, and I imagine there are all kinds of concerns about the relationship in addition to the immediate needs for food and shelter, but I don't know if any of this can be worked out easily or quickly.

I can see that point of view... and I don't disagree with it.  If it was me... I'd do it a different way.  Again... .no experience on my side with this.

Here is my proposed flow.

1.  This reach out info.  Your "real" problem is not money... .it's communication in a relationship.  This email is not disingenuous... .in my opinion.

2.  If she responds... .connect a bit and then bring up business stuff.

3.  If she doesn't connect, then you will reach out with a "business only" communication.  Most likely a fedex or something that she will have to sign for (for this thing... I don't want any chance of "I didn't get it"

Just my thoughts.

FF

Well, today August 4th and still no deposit, still ST. I had a potential roommate come visit, and she ended up not taking the room, said it was above her budget. I did offered her to give her a break in her rent share for a few months, while utility bills are higher. She still could not undertake it.

By Tuesday the next step will be that we both (my spouse and I) will receive a non-payment notice. The $100 late fee is now posted on our charges. So far I have been going through a wide range of emotions from being calm and collected, to nausea about what will happen next to me if I am being evicted, to deep discouragement and sadness, to flatness of emotions, fear again, frustrations that I am running very low on food and no money left, anger, to not much more interest in doing any of this further if nothing better than that happens.

Today I succeeded in disconnecting a bit from all that commotion, decided to just go out and play. Not sure what I want to do next yet, I have decided to not rush into anything, as I will need to know what to expect before making my future plans. Since there will be consequences to her not supporting me now, I expect there will be some form of communication soon. Until than I am going to take care of myself the best I can.

Notwendy you have touched a nerve, this is about survival issues. I don't think I can continue a relationship if I am forced into a poverty type of lifestyle. I do not want to continue living under these conditions. This is not what marriage is supposed to be like. I understand that now I might have to move into some form of survival mode temporarily. This could be necessary because:

a) My spouse did not make any financial plans to support me until I get a decent job. She only tried to help the best she could out of the seat of her pants and blamed me for causing her all this stress month to month. Since she has to make her own experiences in order to really get the way things are for me at this time of my life, it could take us some re-adjustment time where I'll accept a survival job, and she will re-arrange her plans to include proper time for me to meet my objectives while remaining in the relationship. Or,

b) My spouse did have some broad picture plans to support me, but she was not prepared for the time frame I needed to get a decent job. And now she's learning that what she had in mind was not sufficient, thus will need to come back with a different plan, and a different approach regarding her support. I'll have to accept a survival job until we can find our new ways. Or,

c) My spouse had/has no intentions whatsoever to support me in finding a decent job. Her plans for me were/are now substandard, and as a result of me discovering this, I have to part my way. In this case I will need to provide for myself the best I can, and I don't expect to find good paying jobs for a while. But than I prefer to not have to continue being in contact with her. 

In the light of all that I have learned on these boards, along with the recent events, I am suspending all my plans for the moment. Simply this roller coaster is getting too much. Either things go back to normal in a couple of days, we will resume communication, and develop a new plan where I will not be subject to be thrown in the streets, or I will have to part my ways.

FF, I like your communication flow. Still hoping I will not need to go Fedex or the likes. However, I do believe that this problem is more than communication. It's about mood dysregulation and money.

At least from my spouse's point of view it has been about her being upset that she has to share her money with me. Because she has expressed having a very low opinion of me, with this ST, I am challenged hard to not remember the harsh things she said. I clearly have the overvalue-devalue-discard process in my mind.

It's interesting because I also keep thinking that we both would have benefited in using a NC period to reflect more on our situation. ST seems to me more like a reactionary thing on her part. Considering the negative thinking she is struggling with. I am not sure of the discard, since I don't know to which extend her traits are going to play out. I kind of see this process more like a coping mechanism at this point, less like a way to destroy the relationship in order to get a new supply. 

There has been micro- emotional infidelity and triangulation with various people. More like some sort of boundary violations as a result of enmeshment with others at times. I don't think she's going to replace me with a new person.

There has been a progression of her alienating people around her. I am in contact with only one of her friends now, compared to having enjoyed a good connection with five of them in the past. Two of these five friends she has alienated the relationship. I have seen her becoming more and more intolerant of their  idiosyncrasies. Both I liked them, so as a result, I felt sad about it. Same thing with one of her cousins, who was very nice to us in the past. She has stopped talking to her for years now. With the three other ones she is still close to them, but two are not in good terms with me now. It's very sad.

I was also in much better terms with the one who is now living with her PT. I don't even remember her having disrespected me in the past. Now she has. But we were not having to live under the same roof before.

About the triangulation. My spouse has developed new friendships in the last few years. I have been very uncomfortable with at least one of the intense new friends.  Even with the new people in her life I did get along well with, I am not feeling like I am in a strong position. Some are friends of hers, but with strings attached. Like one is a tenant of hers, another is her massage therapist, who comes hang out at the house once in a while. Mrs Brave does have a way to blur these boundaries, than 'forget the strings attached'. She also can cut people off her life with a kind of ease I find perplexing. Now that I live in the city apart from her, I feel I am losing the regular contact with those people who were more, say neutral in the face of conflicts. People who cannot vouch for me confidently if they don't know me enough. I simply am not there, living with her right now. If she gangs up against me, there is not much I can do. 

I didn't enter this marriage thinking that I was going to live under poverty, nor that my spouse was going to push me around nor reject me. With this particular turn of events I have reached some kind of threshold. I know she lives comfortably, did so for as long as I have known her. I only see now that her paranoid condition can have quite of a difficult impact on me. I have walked in fear for a long time now. I will never be able to squelch the inner desire that she would put herself in my shoes at times. I have certainly seen her being empathic to me before, most likely when my pain was not caused by her actions.  Here she seems to not be able to. My decision to find a job is now more about finding my own way out of the unstable situation. If I cannot find a long term roommate, and in particular if I cannot feel confident signing a long term roommate agreement because I don't know for sure that I can afford to pay for my share of the rent (depends on the combo job-financial support), or that I could, but would have to live on the wire just to afford my half of the apartment, than it's just not worth it.

The apartment is something I have undertaken with  my spouse. I was not having all the details in my mind at the time, but I sincerely thought she was going to want to keep it for us, and she was going to make appropriate plans to help me while I was going to work on getting roommate and job. If she defects, I will need to go for a totally different plan. For me to move into someone else's apartment, that would mean we as a couple are needing to give up the possibility of our second home in the city. That changes things a lot in our outlook into the future. And, to be honest, considering the rejection (ST) I have experienced so far, that would leave me to live in the city on my own. It's a lot more painful than I thought this could be.

Now. I know communication tools can help with some of the conflicts, or reduce their intensity. I still will have to see my way with a new, better, more adjusted plan, with her. Not solo. I came to this country to join her. I married her. If I didn't want to live with her I didn't need to come here.

*mod*

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