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Full Disclosure - this is cross posted from the 'Conflicted or Just Tolerating It'... .A few additional new details have been added.  The other post can be moved/locked or deleted if necessary.

My uBPDw has stated many times, as I have outlined in other posts, that she has provided free childcare for my kids over the several years.  Today, she told me that they were her kids and that she was going to do what is best for them and she didn't care what I thought or what anyone else thought.  Setting aside the last part of the most recent statement for a moment, how do you deal with something like this? 

The background on this is she went with the kids to a youth retreat last week.  She went with them because she wanted to make sure they were supervised 'appropriately'.  Prior to leaving on the trip, the youth pastor and his wife took us out to dinner to talk about the trip.  He requested that her and the kids come up with a hand signal to use if anyone felt like she was being too overbearing.  He explained that she would be going as a 'supervisor' for all the students, not just as the children's mother.  Her direct response to that was a very passionate, 'I am the children's mother!'.  She came home from the trip angry because of the hand signal that he requested even though, according to the children it was never used.  She claims that it was completely inappropriate and only used to usurp her parental authority.  She claims that they wanted the hand signal because they believe she is a bad/abusive parent.  She went on to say that the youth pastor is young and unwise and criticized the age difference between him and his wife, which is apparently about 10 years.  She refuses to explain exactly what happened on the trip, telling me that she believes that I just want to know so I can have a different opinion and that I do not support her at all.  I responded that I would really like to understand everything be treated as an equal, it would make it much easier to understand and support her.  She asked me if I would have a problem with having a hand signal if I was in her place.  I told her that I did not believe that I would but that was just how I felt and did not expect her to feel the same way.  She went on to tell me that she plans on attending every youth group meeting from now on to make sure that things are done properly.  Our son has been going to the youth group for over a year and has benefited greatly from it.  Our daughter just started going a month or so ago as she just reached the age limit to be able to go.  I have been the one to take them to the meeting every week as well as almost every other function and have been quite involved.  This is the first time that she has really had any involvement in the group and now wants to have control.  This is just another instance where it is either her way or no way.  I understand being a parent and having the ultimate say/authority/responsibility for your children but this just seems way out in left field.

New details-
My wife met with the pastor to discuss her concerns.  I was not included in the meeting.  I found this out when I asked her this morning when she was planning on meeting with anyone from the church.  Her response was that she already had and that it was none of my business.  I asked her how it was none of her business as the issues concerned our children.  Her response was 'I have nothing further to say.  If you wanted to know, you would have brought your happy a$$ to camp.'.  With what I have learned over the past few weeks, I waited and formulated a response that was at least in a sense validating and not getting sucked in to the comment.  I simply responded, 'I wish I could have gone'.

Woodchuck

I've been there before. Takes so much energy to keep up the fight.  I just resigned and started living my own life which I would not advise you to do.  You must keep playing the game and learning how to communicate with her better.  Also validate her feelings so that you can figure out what she is planning and jump ahead of her.  Of course if you could fix some of these problems through marital counseling that would be great.

The pastor (he) told the kids and she (your wife) to signal if she (your wife) was being too overbearing? Why would he tell that to your wife? That's majorly invalidating, and kind of clueless. 

Turkish -
I can see how that would seem that way.  I will try to give a more thorough explanation regarding the scenario.  The trip was announced a few months ago.  Both of our children wanted to go and my wife eventually told them that they could go but that she would also be going with them to make sure that things were done 'properly'.  I attempted to talk to her about my concerns about her going and the reason behind her going but she was dismissive and set on going.  I decided to just drop the issue as I thought the most important thing was that our kids could go.  We were contacted by the youth pastor requesting that we all meet for dinner to discuss the trip.  This is where I believe I could have possibly done things differently but am still conflicted on what the best coarse of action would have been.  Under the circumstances, I decided to let the youth pastor know about my concerns about my spouse going on the trip due to what and how she had communicated with me.  Looking back, I believe I was trying to 'rescue' both her and the pastor from potential conflict.  I could have just let everything play out.  I simply told him that I was afraid that she would be overbearing/controlling.  I went on to tell him that I hoped I was wrong but that was my concern.  He simply responded that was part of what the meeting was about.  During the dinner, he explained that when they have a parent of a student/students go on a trip, they like to come up with a hand signal that everyone can use in the event that anyone feels like the parent is 'hovering' or something along those lines.  He explained (and I agree) that it is normal for a parent to focus more on their child/children in a situation like that and I thought it sounded like a good and non confrontational way of communicating. 

AnuDay -
I cannot resign myself to living my own life as tempting as it is.  I would love in many ways to just walk away but I know that would be devastating and unfair to the children.  In this particular situation, I felt like I did learn what her plans were and tried to jump ahead and prepare everyone etc.  That did not end well, but in reality, I don't think it would have gone well one way or another.  She has a major issue with me not feeling the same about things.  While I fully understand that it is very frustrating not feeling the same about things, I believe that she needs to understand that we are not the same person and that it is just as frustrating to me to not have her feel the same way as I do.  The main difference is that I typically do not stand in her way and let her do things the way that she wants. 
We have been to probably a dozen marriage counselors and most have ended the same way, with her being upset about something that they said or suggested etc and stating that they were not a good fit for us or they did not know what they were talking about. 

Woodchuck

I think it helps to consider the Karpman drama triangle in these situations. I think you can see how your rescuing behavior could add drama to the situation. I think adults should be accountable for their actions, and unless a situation involves harm to someone, we can let them deal with their own disagreements and conflicts. The other option would have been to say nothing, and if your wife's behavior was overbearing on the trip, let the pastor handle it.

With children, it isn't as clear cut. Their ability to handle conflict and disappointment changes with age. I think it is important to protect them from abuse, and decisions that may cause harm to them, but we can't protect them from all disappointments. The truth is- having a BPD mother isn't easy and there are likely to be disappointments that are unreasonable. There are also going to be disappointments that are necessary. We can't give kids everything they want- every toy they see on TV, candy for dinner, the car keys if they haven't done their homework. Sometimes we have to say no- and just as kids need to learn to deal with these disappointments, we parents also need to be able to manage our own discomfort as seeing our kids upset and angry at us- when it is in their own best interest. We should not "rescue" then, the other parent or "rescue" ourselves from our own uncomfortable feelings.

We also should not invalidate their feelings about someone who emotionally abuses them or violates their boundaries. This can be tricky when that person is a parent. However, we can cause more harm by invalidating them and insisting that they should love someone who abuses them, or make excuses for it.

One example of rescuing behavior from my childhood ( there were many) was when my BPD mother wanted to get rid of our puppy. I don't know the reasons ( we were very young) but the results were that we kids would be upset. Dad steps in to rescue her from that consequence and tells us " we have to give the pup away" and then, rescues himself  by saying it was her decision" because mother wants us to". So we tearfully pack the pup up and Dad drives us somewhere ( don't know where- the pound or a shelter).

There are also times where we need to stand firm and our kids aren't happy about it. I have had to say no to something and faced a crying child who, in that moment, really feels anger towards me. I have to be able to manage my own feelings about that and keep in mind the reason for the "no". It's uncomfortable. I don't think children of BPD parents are able to express their strong feelings to that parent and in families like mine, those feelings were not validated.

In your other thread, you were worried that  your wife might decide the kids can't do youth group, and they will be devastated. It is very tricky to try to step in and rescue them without getting on the drama triangle. One idea would be to step out of this and let your wife be the one to tell them, and let them feel what they feel. Perhaps if she faces their disappointment, she may think about her decision. If you rescue her or them, she won't face the consequences. They may, in the moment, really dislike her and even eventually struggle with disliking her as they grow older, but this is their feelings, their boundaries. When your wife attends the meetings, I suspect she may irritate the pastor and other adults. This is the consequences of her behavior. If you protect her from that she may not learn from it.

Sometimes you may need to step in. I suspect that if my father told my mother " you tell the kids that you don't want the dog" all H*ll might have broken loose in my house. I am sure my father had enough on his plate already and wanted the quickest solution with the least amount of stress to him in that moment. Maybe there are times you have to do this too, for your own survival and function and to remain sane enough to work and support them. I think it is important to choose what we will stand for and what is less important- that is how we support our boundaries. The well being and safety of children comes first.

Your kids need your validation. Don't triangulate with your wife and talk about her. Focus on them. If they are sad, disappointed, then validate that. "I know you are sad, and it really hurts to feel that way" may go a lot further than rescuing your wife from that, or yourself if the kids are upset. They may have real reasons to be upset - help them to manage their feelings and how to protect their boundaries. To do this, you will need to gain skills at upholding yours and managing drama.

Notwendy-
Thank you again for all your insight!  It is interesting that you used the example of a puppy that you had growing up.  I have wanted a german shepherd since I was very young.  My wife is more of a cat person and really dislikes dogs.  Last year, she surprised me and told me that she thought that we could handle having a dog.  I jumped on the opportunity and found one within a few weeks.  At first she seem to accept him, even holding him on the trip home from the place we got him from.  Things relatively quickly changed and she became angry when he would relieve himself in the house.  It did not take long to house train him but it was too long for her.  From that point on, she had constant complaints about him.  She wanted me to keep him outside on a chain (we do not have a fenced yard)  She told me that dogs don't belong in the house.  I told her that I would not do that, that I felt that was cruel and that if I had known that was how she felt, I would not have even entertained the idea of getting a dog.  Over the next several months, I did everything I could do to make things better from getting a shock collar she could use on him since she claimed he would not listen to her to putting in a dog run cable so she could put him outside for a few hours.  I also trained him to go into the treeline on our property to relieve himself so he didn't make a mess in the yard.  None of this made anything any better and he just became another source of conflict.  I would end up getting frustrated with him due to the conflict.  One day she texted me while I was at work stating that if I did not find a new home for him that day, she was going to take him to the animal shelter.  She would not explain why.  One of my coworkers offered to take him so I went home and packed up all his things and went to my coworkers house.  I explained to the kids what was going on.  They were unhappy to say the least as they enjoyed the dog as well.  As I left, I saw her walking up the stairs with a big smile on her face.  I ended up staying with my coworker for the rest of the week to help the dog adjust as well as to cool off myself.  When I came back to the house, she wanted to talk about things.  I told her that I would not talk about it, what was done was done.  According to her, that was rude and disrespectful.  A few months later, she said that she thought that we could try bringing him back.  I told her there was no way that I was going to do that (I guess that would be setting a boundary).  I still see him from time to time when I visit my coworker.  It is bittersweet as he gets very excited whenever he sees me.  I am glad he has a good home but I know the kids and I miss him quite a bit. 

I do plan on letting my wife 'make her own bed' with the youth group.  I do not anticipate that it will end well.  I think that I do a pretty good job of validating my kids feelings while at the same time not talking bad about their mom.  I try to help them look at what they can do different.  My son is a very sensitive person and wants his mom to know that he loves her but from he has said, he feels like she doesn't feel like anyone in the family loves her. 

Woodchuck

Thanks for the insight about the dog. While I think it would have been better to let my mother handle her wish to get rid of the dog, that might not have been the best outcome for the dog. I don't know what happened to ours. I was too young to remember but it wasn't another home, so I suspect it was taken to a shelter.

Which comes down to making the best decision in the moment for creatures who can not defend themselves. ( kids included). You did the best thing for the dog- find a home where he is wanted and loved.

I think your decision to let your wife make her bed with the youth group ( and not intervene unless someone is in potential harm) is a good idea.

It's almost as though the pwBPD has to have something to get triggered about, something to complain about.  That way it's always someone else's Fault and pwBPD always 'justified'.  We figure once the problem goes away, then life will be simple going forward.  It isn't, there is always something to get triggered about.

I discovered that my spouse, who gradually became immersed in the Paranoid/Borderline PD perceptions, increasingly refused to reason with me, she was always (emotionally) right and I was always (logically) wrong.  Doesn't make sense, but that's mental illness.  Eventually the marriage imploded, literally.

Expect things to continue to get worse.  Yes, careful conversations and using communication skills advocated here are so very helpful, but the elephant in the room is unbalanced perceptions, a hyper sense of entitlement and an unwillingness to resolve things amicably.  The only way things can get better - long term - is whether therapy is diligently applied long term, that she lets go of her Denial that she is responsible for the lion's share of the friction, interrogations, ultimatums and demands.

Concerning your topic, my ex too claimed our son was 'her' son.  The Custody evaluator even noted  that in his report.  I always said he was our son.  It only got her riled up more.  It's been that way for over a decade.  Interestingly, when I used that phrase recently in a text she responded that he was her son or my son, not 'ours'.  Who would have guessed she was okay with him being 'my' son?  News to me... .

The part that is frustrating is that she refers to them as 'hers' when she is speaking favorably of them but when she doesn't like something they said or did etc, they magically become mine.  I don't expect anything to truly get better until she seeks help.  This stuff has been going on for over a decade and has slowly become worse.

ForeverDad said it best.  There will either 1. Always be drama or 2. impending drama.  There's just no hope without therapy and willpower. 

Also, yes, I have heard our children referred to as "her" children.  We all go through the same things here.  Some of us nons resign, some of us nons push back.  I guess most of us nons are in between or we cycle back and forth between pushing, pulling, and resigning. 

I look at it like a game... .a sick game that you have to play with a mentally ill person.  That's the only way that I can relate to it.  Like when that crazy homeless man is staring at you at the bus stop and he starts screaming.  You don't engage with him or stare him down, you look away and try to deflect his attention and hope that he becomes distracted by something or someone else.   You need tactics, tact, and strategy. 

Your wife seems to be holding a lot of cards, especially with her MA in psychology.  She'll see what you're doing way before you even start.  Despite that, everything people responded here about the children is dead on.  You must refrain from being apart of the drama triangle AND you must do everything in the best interest of the children at the same time.  These two things always seemed to be in direct opposition to me. I could not figure it out and still have trouble with how I can protect the children and stay out of the triangle.  Mainly because 99% of the time it's about drama the BPD created themselves.

The pastor hand-signal stuff was a misstep for you.  You can NEVER let a BPD know what you are doing to avert them.  Now, for the next 4-8 weeks you're going to have to suffer her wrath... .that's just how it goes, until the moon phases change, or whatever it takes for her to get out of this cycle.  Then perhaps you can move on.     

Agree with AnuDay.

Hand signals for children to use when mom becomes overbearing that mom knows the signal is definitely not useful. They need anonymity to take on mom. My S12 goes to a T, which is great because he can communicate his feelings about his uBPDm or me and know that the T has his back, no matter what. My S7 is now at the stage of needing that, too.

I know it's not funny, but it is kind of funny that your wife went off the wall controlling and overbearing upon being called out as ... .controlling and overbearing. I have been there, too. Some day, I will have to relay my uBPDxw adventure to get the family to go to a 4th of July parade with her group of Happiness cheerleaders. Let's just say, it wasn't all that happy. Funny, yes, but not very happy.

The crazy stuff of our lives ... .

I can agree that under the circumstances the hand signal would probably not be useful and I guess I have been looking at it and putting myself in the same situation.  I know that it is easy for most parents to unconsciously focus on their own children when they are in a group of children and I don't believe I would have a problem with a 'gentle reminder' to get me 'back on track'.  So am I the 'crazy' one for personally not having a problem with it?  Am I not 'normal'?  I think that even if it has been a signal between the group leader and the kids, she would have found out about it and the result would have made the Trump/Russian collusion look like nothing.  I say that a bit in jest but I know that she would have been extremely angry that there was 'collusion' behind her back.  So, it is a loss no matter which way you slice it unless you just let her run free with no constructive feedback/boundaries/accountability. 
I may have mentioned this in another post, but she is apparently looking for a counselor for our son and possibly our daughter.  She has not mentioned it to me at all, I have heard it through the grapevine as she has asked for help to find a good counselor.  I will not approach her with the subject.  I am all for them going to see a T as it will shed even more light onto what is going on.  The part that is bothersome is the fact that she is again acting as THE parent and not even communicating to me what her intentions are.  It is as if I am not even here.
It is a bit funny how she went off and became even more controlling and overbearing after what transpired.  What makes it heartbreaking to me though is how it is affecting the kids.  Our son really wants his mom to trust him.  He tells me that all the time.  He was talking about that just last night, how he tries so hard to do everything right so she will trust him.  I told him that I understood and that it would probably be best if he shifted his focus on why he was doing 'right'.  I told him that he needed to do it for him and focus on just building good habits for when he starts his own life.  I used the analogy of preparing for a marathon.  You train for a marathon so YOU can run the marathon.  You don't train for your coach, you train for YOU.  I went on to explain that it can be difficult if your coach is dictating everything you do and that the coach could be too overbearing but you still have to train and focus on why you are training.  I think he understood but at the same time still has the yearning for approval from his mom.  He probably gets that from me and sadly, I don't think that he will ever see that to the extent that he wants to.

If she chooses the counselor, she surely will only select one who fits her criteria... .one who listens and agrees with her, one who does not listen or agree with you, one who declares her wonderful and declares you irrelevant, yeah, a disaster.

One idea that courts love is when both parents are involved in the selection.  What that means is that you the reasonably normal parent need to build a short (or not so short) list of the best possible counselors that are experienced, respected by the courts and children's services, not easily gullible, not easily intimidated, etc.  Then ask the other parent to select from that Most Excellent list.  Sure, she may not agree but that's just about the only way to avoid getting stuck with a counselor that echos whatever pwBPD claims.

That does feel really terrible to watch our kids go through that. A parent with BPD will likely not be able to validate their child, no more so that they validate their spouses. it just isn't something they can give ... .to themselves or anyone, which is why they are always demanding validation from everyone. I am sorry for you and your son. Just keep being there to validate him. Even though you want to fix this, more than anything, just let him know you understand and see how much he wants his mom's approval, and maybe ask validating statements/questions when he doesn't get that trust from his mom, like "It hurts when we try so hard to make someone trust us and they don't. It can feel like you're not seen, can't it?" He needs help with the emotional side as well as the functional, logical side.

I remember when my oldest was maybe 8 or so, and his mom called out for his little brother (3 or so) to give her a hug and make her feel better - she had been lying in bed depressed most of the morning. My older son leapt out of the room where he was playing with his little brother and ran in to hug his mom, and she said "I didn't call you, I want [little brother]" My son walked out of the bedroom with his head down, didn't say a word, and got his little brother to go tend to their mom. I went to him, put my arms around him and told him that I saw how he wanted to make his mom feel better, that I was sorry that she didn't see it, and that he was a good son. I tried to let him know it's okay to feel angry, but he couldn't really receive it. In retrospect, I should have just stayed with his experience, instead of my own anger that I was feeling. Sometimes, just seeing what they are going through and letting them know that you see it is enough.