BPDFamily.com

Hey folks,

I was trying to talk with my SO just moments ago. Topic: mental illness. I ended up bursting into tears. I went to my room and sat on the edge of my bed. He went to his adjacent room. Moments later I stood up to get a glass of water. Out of the corner of my eye I saw him in his room with a rope wrapped around his neck. It is from a stretching device that is mounted from the ceiling.

I did not stop in my tracks. My forward momentum carried me into the next room where I took a drink, paused for a beat to gather myself, then turned around to check on him, and remove the rope. I was calm and did not say a word.  By the time I got back he was lying on his side in bed. The rope was still swinging. I placed my hand on him and saw that he was wanting to rest.

The next time he is out of the apartment I will remove these ropes if I can. The hooks can stay up, I can’t remove them, but I will take the ropes away. I may even do it sooner, while he is here. I do not think he’d stop me.

It’s Saturday now, but Wednesday we had a nice day. I was not ready to say I want a future with him, no, but I was willing to consider this. He has had a hard time in the last month or so. We had a fall deadline for deciding if we would stay together or not and he decided early and was “absolutely certain” he wanted to stay together and announced this to his whole family (without checking about how I felt). He promised he would "never break up with me" again, but he did while I was away on a solo vacation and he on vacation with his kids.

He can’t handle that my emotions have gotten less and less for him. He has a tendency, I think, to try to shock me back into having feelings for him. Sometimes, although I see what is happening, it does work. A bit. For a short time. Despite a sudden violent, possibly relationship ending outburst on Thursday, he does have some pull on my heart.

He was (and has been) upset that I don’t want to spend the holidays with him at the end of the year. He’s already made plans, on his own, but wants me involved. I want separate plans so I can relax, have a break, and see my own family. I have been hesitant to give him a lot of details, which raises his suspicions, but I don’t like to talk to him about specific family members because I am afraid he will target them and make trouble for me. (He’s done this in the past)

I wanted to go and see my family/friends and reconnect to my old life. I realize I want less time with just him so I can recharge. He wants more time together. I thought this might trigger him, but his response was stronger than usual, perhaps also fueled by some drinking he suggested today, and his background with his ex taking trips alone a lot of the time to see her family.

He could have had that this weekend, time with me, but it all got cancelled in the wake of the incident during the week on Thursday.  I don’t always notice, because I am used to time alone and can keep busy, but when I really look at it he is quite controlling, possessive, and jealous. And it is no way for me to live.

Anyway, I found an amazingly good price on a ticket and reserved a trip away in the fall without "clearing it" with him. He is upset because I already took two trips this year and he can’t stand when I am away. I wanted to tell him right away instead of hide that I was taking the trip for another month or so. He lost it.

He’s been drinking a bit more lately. And has been suicidal. He was suicidal while I was on my trip, but I did not rush to rescue him. I checked on him, but told him he should call a hotline and his doctor. He had broken up with me and told me not to contact him before this I should add. But even if he hadn’t my response would have been the same.

His suicide threats since the late Spring have added a new dimension to our relationship. The doctors here told me, tried to relieve me of any responsibility, that “if he does that it is his choice and you can’t stop him.” I felt like they delivered this pretty coldly to me. It upset me at the time. But this advice is all I have to go on really. I can do what I can, but I can’t prevent it. I hope with all my heart it does not happen. It would haunt me. I am already deeply burdened by the fact that I did not recognize and get more help for him sooner. I tend to tough out my problems and handle them on my own and I projected that on him a bit . He can’t tough this out. This is very serious and…

I am going to post here on Conflicted for a bit as I sort this out.

We have an appointment with a counselor/divorce lawyer to do mediation between us in mid-September. I elected not to file a report on him and let him make an appointment with a counselor to talk about the violence, suicidal ideation etc. (All of this is complicated by us both being immigrants in a third-party country. It makes me wary of laws, cops, accessing social services, though if I absolutely had to I would.) It is just sinking in (again) how serious the suicidal threats are, and they are increasing... .

What are my problems:

1) I am still trying to keep up appearances. (Following notions I have internalized about how you operate in a “normal” relationship that simply may not apply in the case of this one. This, and being very logical, as opposed to his very emotional state is tearing me up a lot.)

2) I am still tied by the dread/trauma over leaving an ill person. (My father had a terminal illness and my trauma around this gets triggered by relationships ending. And it’s worse than usual because my SO has a health issue. The health issue/break up combo is very tough for me!)

3) I am also stuck from the momentum of thinking this was my last relationship in life and I wanted to give it my all before I would ever end it. I am not objectively sure what "all" entails at this point. I know I can end it at any time, but the power of the beliefs/self-messaging I built up around this are strong (and limiting).

Solutions:

1) Screw appearances. It’s my life. Who cares what anyone thinks. They get it or not. I know the truth.

2) He is not my father. My father was my father, and nothing I do now will save him or bring him back to life.

3) This could be my last relationship. Oh well. I've had quite a run and had a lot of love.  Or I could start again when/if I am ready. I’ve done it before.

Gotta memorize this stuff.  

I   logic.

p.s. I will later post a list of reasons to stay together and reasons to break up.

Pearl,

Has the time come to put yourself first?   Is it time to put down that over developed sense of responsibility and just take care if you?   

This I know,    if I continue to bear the burden of another individual,  their well being,  their health then I will break myself.    It's only a matter of time before I burn out,  became a shell of myself,   become resentful.

What has to happen for you to put your health, life, comfort, serenity first?

Ducks

Hey Ducks!

Nice questions.

I just peacefully took down the ropes and stored them away.

I will think about your questions a bit and come back later to reply.

Thanks for your concern.

warmly,
~pearl.

It's a tough dilemma to feel the choice is between someone we care about and our own sanity.

I understand you may not be in the US, but in the US, I would call 911 if I saw someone with a rope around their necks.

It is possible that he wasn't serious and trying to get your attention, but one can't really know for sure. I understand not wanting to cause a scene at the time. But that would also be a lesson that these things are taken seriously and should not be used as a threat.

I wonder- his divorce threats used to work for him with you but they are less effective so he is trying this.  At the time, he felt more secure in the relationship- the fall deadline wasn't anytime soon, you were not asserting yourself by taking trips, you also felt more for him than you do now. He tried the divorce threat recently and it didn't stop your travel plans. Do you think he's upping the ante to get you to stay?

I think your own heart will lead you to the best decision for you. Staying because of his threats- divorce , suicide, isn't staying because you truly want to be with him. I hope he doesn't do something to hurt himself, but he may also be using this as a threat, like he did divorce, as a means of control. Since BPD mother has made suicide threats as a means of manipulation, we've come to the point of deciding we will call 911 if she does- because we can't tell the difference, and even so, someone can ( heaven forbid ) succeed even if they don't mean to. This is a huge responsibility to carry alone. I am glad his doctors have spoken to you. Do you plan to tell them what happened?

I wish I had better knowledge about your relationship and the patterns that go along with it.  So... .take this as a brief impression.

It appears to me that you have "turned a corner" and are putting yourself first "more" (that's the history part that I can't measure accurately)... .(so... more than what?)

My guess is that your SO feels this and is using his dysfunctional tools to "turn you back around"

Catch us up on his therapy status.  Good there is a doctor involved, but is there a health care team that includes a T?

Do you have a T and a team in place?


I don't have "personal" history with SI, but I do have "professional" experience.  In the military when we have concerns we send people off to medical and let professionals determine when they should get out.

Am I correct in my assumption that "you are the head of his team"?  I'm hoping a way can be found to shift that responsibility.

I think you likely (but I think you should get a professional opinion) did the right thing in removing the rope this time.  I also think you should get a professional opinion about next time the exact same thing happens.

Also, is there a way to talk to "911" ahead of time and ask how this would go? (realizing you are not in the US)

   

FF

Hi Pearl,
  I echo what's been written here. Is it time to put yourself first? I also like what FF has observed--it does seem as if you've turned a corner.
  When I first met my STBX, he played what I call the "suicide card," told me that he didn't want to live. I told him, and I meant it, that if really wanted to kill himself there was no way I could prevent it. There had already been three people (2 peripheral), who had either seriously attempted suicide or succeeded.
  He still played that card on and off throughout the relationship, and one night when we were married, he threatened suicide, and I attempted to call 911. He then threatened me. Weird because I was angrier than I was scared. I told him that I had a responsibility as his wife to call 911.
  Ahh, my memories are carrying me away.
  I don't know where you live, but I'd echo what others have said about the need to let professionals handle this.
  My heart goes out to you.   
TMD
 
 

Oh wow! This board hops!

I wrote this up before reading your replies. I will be back later with more replies!

Thank you for reading!

******

Maybe you can explain more what you mean about putting myself first? Perhaps I misunderstand?

To fill people in, I just took two pretty big vacations without my SO. I think those would be pretty strong indicators of making myself a priority. He would have preferred I not take them, I took them anyway. I was gentle but firm about doing this. Sensitive to his feelings, but also willing to live my life as I see fit. I can compromise and adjust, that is what you do in relationships, but I am not going to do it the point that I give up my life, not for him or anyone.

My plan is that I also will not be spending the end of the year holidays with him, even if we do not divorce this fall. Giving myself the holidays I want for myself is another way I am finding a balance between my relationship and my own needs. This is not easy. He feels abandoned. But I need a break and want to have other areas of my life - it can’t be all about him.

I am also not willing to stay in my “home” if my SO does anything to prevent me from going to work. I will move into a DV shelter if that happens. Work is a huge priority for me. And would be a major factor in whether I stay with my SO or not even if he was the greatest person to be with ever. I want better work and I want my independence back - I lost more than I expected in my overseas move.

I post here about my relationship, not all the other areas of my life. I have my own hobbies and interests which I pursue. Those are things I also prioritize. My life is not what I’d like it to be and I am working to make it better. I am dealing with my own personal set of complications around this and doing it at the pace that feels right to me and is true to my personal beliefs.

My relationship is a priority. Making it work or ending it are priorities in my life. I have an October deadline to end it or continue it for another 6 mo’s. I am working with my SO to see if his mental health issues are treatable or not, if they are too much and make life together impossible for us. They are at that point, I don’t know if we can dial it back or not. To the core of my being leaving an ill person is the last spot I’d like to be in. I would prefer an illness myself to seeing him suffer. He nearly killed himself just today in the room right next to me (he told me later he stopped because he heard me walk into the kitchen to get water) because he can’t bear to see me suffer. For us this is a personal tragedy if we can’t be together. But even after tragedy, life goes on.

We have a date set up to arrange a divorce in mid-September. It is our mutual choice to explore this option and move forward, together or apart, if we so choose. Laws here would allow either of us to delay a divorce for two years and keep the other bound together; neither of us want that. We would want to resolve it quickly. If either wants to end it in September, it will end. That will only take a couple months to wrap up paperwork.

There is a lot of planning and logistics involved if I leave and make an overseas move back to my country of origin. I would prefer a smooth transition if that is the case, but I am not counting on it. I have to have, and always have had to have in this relationship, two to three plans going at once.

I wish with all my heart my husband did not have this illness. But wishing won’t make it better. I would like to help him, to a degree that is healthy, achieve better health whether we stay together or not, but my life is not dependent on that happening. Great if it happens, but if not I know I will have done my best with a complicated and difficult set of circumstances. I will find my peace with it.

But ultimately I believe in relationships, and I don’t think people [meaning me/I only apply this to me] should quit them easily. That works with a typical healthy non, that has other limits with someone (with serious mental illness/abusive patterns) who it may be simply damaging to be with. I care about my spouse very much and I don’t want anything bad for him in life. He is taking medication, he wants more help, he is not resistant to help. There are reasons to try to make this work, duties and obligations and promises to try to keep whenever possible. There are also reasons not to. That is why I need to make a list to lay it out clearly. I usually do this privately, but it may benefit others to see my list and break up thought process and so I will likely share it here or on Detaching.

As hard as it is to be this raw and open I do it because I believe it helps myself and others through these difficulties, and that is a nice extra bonus in life that eases my own pain a bit. Sometimes the BPD family boards bring me more pain, on top of my pain, but I try to use it as a “practice” and as part of my own healing.

sincerely, pearl.

Thank you Notwendy!

Interesting. I did not think the call the police over this.

He does not know I saw it. Later after I took the ropes away he asked me if I did. He thinks it was a miracle from God that I thought to take the ropes down today "out of the blue"* and he explained to me what he tried to do and why he stopped. He had no idea, his back was to me. It was sheer luck that I went to go get water and this sound stopped him precisely because he did not want me to see this.

(*I didn't tell him what I saw so as to not to add to the drama of it.)

Would he make a suicide threat to prevent a divorce or get me to love him more? Maybe. But it was not planned what happened today. He was in pain from seeing me in pain and was trying to end his pain.

It is too much for him to talk, but we will get him more help for his suicidal thoughts. I am doing this for his kids and myself - it would be a big burden for us to all carry if he dies. I do not want this for them (I lost my dad at a young age) if I can help prevent it. I have no access to his doctors on my own.

I am not staying because of his threats. The divorce threats were because of his intense emotional pain in relation to me and not being able to have a stable, healthy relationship. The suicide threats are not the same exactly. They feel personal to him, not about me. I don't take personal responsibility for either. This is his brain at work.

I am staying (for now) because of the person I met and fell in love with and the hopes we had for a better life... .and wishing it could have worked out, but knowing it might not, but giving what I can until the last possible moment. (I hate breakups.) I have only ever been with him out of love. No other reason.

sincerely, pearl.

Putting yourself first might be a bit strong... .or unhelpful way to look at things.

Maybe better is to "put yourself higher" than 6 months ago... 1 year ago.  Make sure it is relative.

Frankly, there are times you don't put yourself first. 

I just got done talking with a neighbor in my hometown.  They are caregivers for ailing/elderly parents.  Their own "personal" lives are way down on the list, yet even then they set up care and took a vacation with their kids over the summer. 

Big difference... .they know this will end, even though it may be 6 months... .or 6 years.  Elderly parents pass away.

Well... .I'm not sure I understand you and his ages and "physical health" but my guess is you both have decades left, assuming nothing "happens" to alter that.

My opinion is you are being wise by setting "check in" deadlines and things like that.  You need to make sure the trends are towards health and "getting your life back".

Hope that puts things in different perspective.

FF

Being in a foreign country and having to do all (or almost all) in a foreign language is not easy. Just trying to get ahold of a shelter yesterday took me jumping over a few hurdles, international assistance to get back to local. I can manage in a language they primarily use here, but I need his cooperation/assistance to do many things typically. He has already contacted a therapist to set up an appointment. It is vacation time here so I imagine it will all move extremely slow. I am the front lines of this. But I can call the police or yell out the window if need be.

There was some recent drama in his family so I am hesitant to reach out to them. I do need more help though. We are both fairly isolated.

Man, reading your replies, I am remembering how not normal this is. Thanks for the reminder/mirror.

thank you FF, pearl.

Perhaps this is true, but I doubt it. 

Please understand, no intent to be argumentative. 

Is there a chance he heard you walking, then turned his back and did what he did?  Right now that is what my gut is telling me.  Then... you listened to him talk about it.  He "got something" from the entire interaction.

What if... .you had moved the ropes and then when he asked about it you pointed him to his health care team and declined to listen.

What if you didn't do anything with the ropes in the first place?


Please... .I'm not suggesting you follow my advice, I'm presenting alternate "points of view".  There seems to be a massive manipulative quality to SI.

Which is why I believe it is so incredibly important to have professionals involved.

   

FF

No. He was already in this position when I walked by. I saw it but did not stop and rush to him. I may have paused for a moment there too now that I think about it further, in the hallway outside his room, but he did not hear me until I walked by and did not expect me.

I was in the kitchen for a moment after I saw this, then I went right back to him and he was lying down in bed as if he was asleep. He wasn't. He was trying to hide it.

Believe me. He can make a show. The first time he made a device he insisted I look at it and threatened to use it at any time. Later I took that device too.

He was glad I took the device.

He told me yesterday something about his religion. What did he say? Oh, it's not allowed to kill me, he'd go to Hell, but if he kills himself he might still get into Paradise.

He seemed glad I took the ropes, but he thinks it is a coincidence. I am sure he is a bit suspicious I saw something, but really, his back was to me. He did not intend this. It was a spontaneous thing he did because he is upset his illness hurts me and causes me pain. He doesn't want to hurt anyone he says.

Who knows what would have happened had I not needed that water.

Thanks for your thoughts and the hugs too!

warmly, pearl.

Well that was kind of my point pearl.     When things get too much,   you go on vacation.   When he limits or if he limits your ability to work you have a plan,  a work around plan to gain some respite.   

You are right ,  this is "very not normal".    In no world is this ordinary behavior.

I'm not trying to be argumentative either.  I do share FF's concern about being deadlocked in manipulation and dysfunction.

So... .how do you know he didn't see/hear/perceive you were around?

Again... my understanding is that when you first saw him, his back was to you so you don't have any "direct knowledge" of what he was doing just before you looked into the room... right?

I get it... there is no way to "know" that my version... or someone else's version happened either, assuming you have no direct knowledge of what he was doing just before you viewed him.

He is getting a lot of attention from you with SI.  I can't quantify that based on your history, since I'm not super familiar with the story of your r/s.

I'm wondering...

What would you r/s be like if you stopped talking about SI (and related things like getting to Paradise)?

What is the status of his T and your T (T in general for you guys)

FF

You were trying to talk with him about mental illness, when you got upset and left the room. Had you not gotten up to get a glass of water, you wouldn't have seen him with the rope wrapped around his neck and he might have carried out a suicide attempt. He tells you that hearing your footsteps stopped him from going any further, because he didn't want you to see him do it. Yet, you would have seen the aftermath.

When he did "the apology tour" with you at the family gathering, he announced that you two were staying together, without asking how you felt about that. He promised never again to break up with you, yet he did it while you two were on separate vacations.

You have a September deadline for deciding whether to remain in the relationship and he's seeing that your feelings for him have faded to some degree, so he's trying to do things to shock you into having feelings for him again. You had a nice day with him on Wednesday, but on Thursday he did something violent, possibly relationship-ending.

You are making plans to spend holidays with your family, away from him, because you need a break from him, whether or not the relationship continues. He's not happy about that, wants you to be with him during that time. You don't want to fill him in on the details because he might try and sabotage something with one of your relatives, as he's done in the past.

The incident on Thursday was likely triggered by his drinking more than usual and his response to you planning your holiday trip. Because of how he reacted, you didn't want to go away with him for the weekend, as was planned. You're realizing how controlling, possessive and jealous he is.

The suicide threats are a new element which began recently. He threatened suicide when you were on your recent trip, but at the same time, he had told you not to contact him because he'd broken up with you.

You dread leaving him because of the compassion you feel for an ill person and it triggers your memories of your dear father's illness before he passed. Also you have conceived of this relationship as the last one you will ever have and you're reluctant to end it for that reason as well as the thought you would give it everything you had.

You've taken steps to find yourself a place in a shelter if there comes a time that he prevents you from going to work. That's great that you're planning for future contingencies. Should you find yourself moving back to your home country, it will take a lot of planning, but you're a planner, and good at that.

If you were to read what I wrote here as coming from another member on this board, how would you advise her?

hey 'ducks,

I know people don't know my stuff as well on this board... .So, to be clear... .it was not that things were too much and I went on vacation. I had an opportunity to vacation/work in another country with a family member and I went away for 10 days.

The last visit with his kids (last December) was horrible so I wanted to not be stuck home alone while he took a vacation with them this summer. I took myself on vacation while he did his. I was around for 2-3 days at the start of the kid's visit to help, be friendly, etc.

I can get to work if I am under this roof too, it's just harder if he takes the vehicle away from me. There are trains, but the distance/time is far. I consider it abuse if he threatens that.

Wish we'd done something about his mental illness sooner before it did so much damage. I will always regret that, whether we continue together or not.

I don't feel deadlocked with our plan in place. I think it is a good plan.

The hard part, I am feeling now as the day wears on, is did I do the right thing about the suicidal thoughts/actions today?

This is a lot to carry on my own but I have no friends here to turn to.

thanks very much, pearl.

Hey Cat,

You nailed a lot here! But with two minor mistakes, but otherwise what a memory and summarizing ability! I didn't cancel the weekend stuff, he did. Dramatically. I already knew he was possessive and jealous. He was bringing up a story from years ago that is so far from reality I can't hear it anymore.

We were talking over the relationship a bit and how the mental health issues impact it. I was telling him how it hard because I am logical and he is... .him.

We have a meeting with a divorce lawyer arranged. Divorce has been an active topic. He does not want it. Sometimes. He is extremely black and white. He hears, but has a hard dealing with the fact I can't recover from all he does. I am leaning heavily towards a break up because 1) He cannot resolve problems in a healthy way, 2) He is unstable and makes breakup threats.

I think #1 is something he could work on with extensive behavioral therapy/counseling. I think #2 could also change with some effort. He is willing to put in more effort to save the relationship, I have been wavering. He has set up appointments with counselors and is willing to do any thing I ask of him, but he needs help and support - from others aside from me.

I think I would ask the poster how they felt (Isn't this the place to vent/express themselves, not problem solve?) and recognize that their life partner/fellow human being nearly killed himself today and be sensitive and gentle with the person. Maybe this person who wrote this post is shocked and hurting.

sincerely, pearl.

 red-flag

Hmmm... .

I know I'm tossing several different questions out there.  Basically as I realize there is a "hole" in your story that I don't understand.  I will launch a question... vice me putting any kind of thought or structure to my questions.

I rarely post "red flags"   red-flag .  Your statement really jumped out at me.  Why?

I assumed you to be a "structure" person.  I'm a structure person.  Build the structures... and then as life happens you kinda knock around inside this thing you have thoughtfully created for yourself.  You've planned vacations, deadlines and all that.  So... .that being said... .my  red-flag  bothers me all the more.

You are there yet don't have any support structure... any friends.  What's that about?  How does a person that is a thoughtful as you appear to be come to this place in life?

That can be a big answer... .or not.  I can appreciate you may want to ponder if for a bit.


I'm also going to poke at you a bit to describe the rest of your structures.  Here is what I see... and what I don't know.  I'm hoping you will more fully address each one.

1.  Involved with bpdfamily.  Seems solid there.

2.  No friends to turn to.  This concerns me.  What is your social circle like.  o you have good friends in other places you stay connected to?  (My "best" friends don't live near me.  We served together and keep in touch.  No big deal to call them up and have massive heart to heart.

3.  So... .where are the people you can call... and have "massive heart to hearts".

4.  What is your status with therapy.  Ever done it?  Still doing it?  Joint?  Individual?

5.  What is your hubby's therapy status?  Obviously some doctors are involved at some level?

6.  oes he have friends and a supportive social circle.

7.  Who does he have "heart to hearts" with?

 
FF

Yes it is serious indeed. It must be traumatizing these constant close calls. If you lived where I live you could "Baker Act" him have him commited as he is a danger to himself. I wonder if you have that option there...

I like your first two "solutions" but I think the 3rd needs tweaking. Is it better to be in a traumatic relationship than none at all? Also there's a darn good chance you will not wind up alone forever.

Hugs

You’ve been under so much pressure and strain with this relationship , Pearl.    And you’ve been holding up so well.

Having to confront the possible ending of it is painful, however staying in it is painful too.

Other than for the suicide threat you dealt with on your vacation, you had a great time.

And now he’s upping the ante in behavioral issues while you’re trying to decide which path to take.

You realize there is a possibility he will improve through extensive counseling, and he seems willing to comply with your requests of that nature.

Yet, at the same time, the suicide threats, jealous episodes and overall life disruptions are increasing.

You still have fondness for him, but the love you once felt has eroded through his history of behaving unkindly toward you.

You’re very strong and have great respect for keeping your commitments, but at the same time are wondering if you’re being fair to yourself to continue trying to prop him up at great expense to your own happiness.

Moving back to your own country would be fraught, with lots of losses and difficulties, but you would have friends and family as support, something you currently don’t have where you are now.

Hi LadyItone,

Thanks for the hugs!

I am middle aged and not interested in having another relationship if this one ends. I felt that way 7.5 years ago when I committed to this one and still feel strongly about that. I surely could start another one, just not willing to. It has taken me off of the path of other things I'd like to do in life. I have had many serious boyfriends and lots of love and I don't need a relationship to make me feel complete, whole, or loved. I'm fine. Some people stop in their 50's or 60's or 70's with them I think. In my family at least. I'm okay with that. I'd focus on friendships instead. I would not look for anyone new to be involved with. If someone came along that was extremely special I might reconsider, but chances are slim. This is my personal choice in life and I am happy with it. That is the full answer on that one.  

Thanks for the hugs! It's been a rough day. Here's some for you too:   

One slight correction, to your truly amazing powers of summarizing, truly amazing!, I did not have a great time on my vacation. I had an eye infection and other odds and ends. I didn't just hear a suicide threat, but prior to that a divorce threat and lots of insults/accusations. I only had a few good days, nevertheless, I'd do it all again in a heartbeat for the adventure and chance to not think about my relationship, get a small break.

thanks again for the kindness and the chance to observe your amazing super powers!  pearl.

Dude.

I live in a foreign country. I don't know a single speaker of either of my native languages here. Not one. I have no currently close friends that speak the other two I speak either. Crazy, huh? I could talk to a lot of people. So, how do I do it? Talk to humans I mean. I pay people to talk to me by paying for online language lessons. I have human contact. I have no friends here. Please don't trouble shoot this for me. I have and do work on this, it hasn't clicked, maybe it will, maybe it won't. I'm fine. It would be nice to have more friends, I am sure I will some day. It is what it is. Patience is a virtue.

Living overseas, with limited access to making phone calls, and massive time differences, time zones ya know, etc., etc. I have lost my close friends back home by being so out of touch. Could I call some old friends, yes? If I time it right. But it is hard to do that time difference for both sides. It is also hard to reach my relatives whom I've only recently reconnected with (thanks to trauma in their pasts, etc.)... .and frankly I am a private person who handles my own problems when in a pinch. Also don't need a lot of troubleshooting on this, but thanks!

I am nice, but also kind of a loner if you must know.  Now you know! But I like people and they like me and I had plenty of friends in my home country, no problem. I might have made a new female friend on my last vacation, we'll see how that pans out. I like humans, like they me. Um, it just ain't easy living overseas in a 5,000 person retirement village. Ya know? And I don't speak the dialect here. And I live in winter land so people aren't outdoors year round. Enough details yet to put your flag away?  I hope so because I can't fix that today and I've got other stuff that is more pressing for me. It's kinda tiring me out to explain so much stuff, and hard to keep up with... .I'd prefer to talk about how I currently feel. That's what I'm looking for really. A chance to describe how I feel.

Therapy? I'm fine overall. Thanks.  If there was a free website where I could describe how I feel I'd be doing great!

My SO has family in this and the neighboring country. He recently reconnected with an old friend, and I went along, we all had a great time. His friend also disclosed some mental health issues to our surprise.

My SO is seeking counseling as I mentioned. He has dates booked. Fingers crossed that helps in any way, but I imagine that will take years if it works at all. It's extremely expensive here and he is in big debt. He lost contact with a lot of his friends after his last divorce/trauma/int'l kidnapping of his kids.

Thanks for your concern. Hope this makes sense!

take care, pearl.  hugs for you too!  

Hi toomanydogs,  

Thanks for your kind reply! Just seeing it now! Sorry I missed it earlier. This is a busy board! Wow!

I am sorry you had experiences with suicide threats. The first time I was a bit angry and that was something I had to sort out at the time.

I am still making sense of them. Sometimes they are drama and manipulation I think, but I truly believe he'd do it after talking about it with him more. He needs help. It is such a pain being in a foreign country and feeling so limited, uncertain, confused about how to operate in another system. I wish I just knew one person from here to talk to and ask for advice about how things work here. No such person exists for me here - a close, personal friend I mean. (Expat friends I had here moved away.)

I talked to some people on Friday who did offer me some ideas about the initial problems. The suicidal thoughts issue is yet another problem.

I live in a slow and sleepy village without enough resources. Everything has an extra layer of either complication or expense. You'd be amazed how hard it is to get any help.

thank you so much for your message, pearl.  

I care about my spouse very much and I don’t want anything bad for him in life.


I can understand this, and if this is your wish, then of course, we need to respect this.

This was my father's wish for my BPD mother who had many of the same behaviors as your H, and he lived it till the end of his days. Her mental illness took time and resources and I would say, he dedicated all of himself to her well being. Before he died, I asked him what his wishes were and he said almost the same words as you do- that she be as comfortable as possible.

I won't say I entirely understand the extent he was willing to do this, but it wasn't my business to insert myself in his choices. It wasn't easy to watch the emotional toll this took on him, but it was his choice.  

Every relationship is different and one person's choices may not work for another. It does seem natural for people to make suggestions of choices when we see someone in distress. It is good that you clarified that you mostly want to post your feelings while you remain committed to your choices, even if they are difficult ones so that posters don't make suggestions that don't work for you.  All the choices- to stay, to leave, are difficult ones to make. I hope whatever you do choose, you can feel some peace with that choice after processing which direction you wish to take.

Hi Notwendy,

I appreciate you hearing my needs and responding to them so kindly.

It is hard to stand my ground with his emotional storms spinning around me all the time. This man has challenged all, literally all I thought I knew about life. Mental illness is such an incredible challenge.

He spent most of the day asleep. I feel there is something very serious going on, but steering him towards the right medical care will be a big uphill battle.

I can't even get out what I want to express on this thread which is rough because I really need a place where I can be heard and work out my issues. My reasons to stay or go is also a theme I want to touch on because I want to make this decision. I made my list, but am not sure about posting it. I need it for myself to just get the thoughts out of my head. I like to process by writing, but it is not so easy to find understanding given the limits of this medium, or maybe any.

I know I can stand strong, and have already many times, in the face of his suicidal ideation, and this will not get me to stay. But I have to admit he is hitting me from every angle to get me to stay with him and I don't even think it's conscious. He is just a ball of energy, emotion, and needs.

I am tempted to contact his family for help but I doubt they would be able to do much. He has no friends I can contact. He didn't even make it through his work day on Friday and now he is sleeping a lot. I will contact the folks here again locally and see what they can do to help me, what other resources they can steer me to, if any.

I can't keep up with his mood swings. I can't keep up with his issues. So much happens in just a single week, more than most relationships would have in years.  But I am doing my best for now.

sincerely, pearl.  

pearlsw, I just came back on the boards after a difficult week with my own story. I am reading this post. I don't have anything to add. Just that I am sorry you are having this difficult time.

        

Hope you are getting some good sleep.
 

Brave

Hi Brave, Thanks so much!    I just need a little extra support if I can get it. I'm facing a big storm here and need a safe place to rest, think and articulate my thoughts and feelings.

I think I am going to wrap up this thread with this final reply. A hotline was recommended to me that might be able to help me with my current needs.

I'll go look for your story if you're posting about it yet! 

warmly, pearl.

Pearls, I think it is natural to explore both options - leave or stay - when trying to make a decision. I think your own responses to these possibilities are clues to how you feel. While it is important to not push a poster in either direction, the discussion may involve either possibilities. I think your feelings about a suggestion are important signs for you- they may lead you to your own answer. If something seems wrong or hurtful to you, then that may help you process your choices. I actually think both choices come with their own set of challenges, but we all have to make the best choice we can for our situation.

Consider what possible stress may be changing things. One is the impending decision that you wrote of coming this fall. Before this, the decision was remote- it may not have been on your H's mind or yours, but with this deadline where the two of you will need to make a decision about your relationship being nearer- it does enter both your thoughts and he's probably thinking about it too. That's probably increasing both your stresses. He may not be able to handle stress as well- but that doesn't mean you have to protect him from every stress- this isn't you causing it- it is the legal process of whatever decisions come with marriage, I guess.

That's a tough place to be in. I know you don't want to cause him stress, but it is impossible to shield someone from all stresses. I hope that he doesn't hurt himself and if there is another attempt or threat I hope he can get medical help.

Hi Pearl,
I'm so sorry about what you went through. Seeing your husband with the rope around his neck is an image that you'll never forget.

I've dealt with suicide threats from four different people: my mother, my ex-husband, and two friends. Those words shake you to your core.     But even worse, to see the potential means of carrying out that threat.

I made a gun disappear so that my ex couldn't use it. I called a mandated reporter on a friend and thereby ended the friendship (in her opinion--and then in mine).

It's chilling and ultimately it's out of your hands, but you have done what you can and his doctors are aware of his mental state.

My ex-husband repeatedly threatened suicide as a means of controlling me and keeping me on the reservation. He did that with his next girlfriend too. She confessed that he was "holding her hostage with suicide threats".

With your decision deadline coming up in a month, I wouldn't be surprised if this is what your husband is doing, whether he's conscious of it or not.

I hope that you will be able to evaluate the relationship objectively about whether it is fulfilling and brings you joy and improves your life, without being drawn in by a desire to rescue or rehabilitate him.

I understand how hard it is.   

Cat

Hello Pearlsw,

I am very late to your thread, but I want you to know that you are in our thoughts and prayers... .I am very sorry that you are having to endure this type of acting out... .its very taxing on you I know, .my first wife used to do these types of behaviors, .she used to take pills, and then disappear, very scary, as our children were little back then, it was overwhelming to me, and I did not know what to do, or how to explain "what is was wrong with mommy" to little ones, age D5, S7, and S11(special needs)... .please know you are not alone.

I understand you are overseas, and limited in your resources... .in my home state, Florida USA, one can have their sig-other "baker acted" when suicide attempts become very aggressive (lack of a better word), .I never did this, but I wish I'd had, .as the third attempt; she (my S2BXW) was very near successful, .that was back in 1997.

I hope things are better for you today, .three days later, .please keep posting, and take care of yourself, we are here listening.

Kind regards, Red5

Hi all, 

Thanks for your understanding and support. It is not easy to “liveblog” my at home crises. I think this may be the second time I’ve basically “live blogged” a suicide threat or attempt or expression, whatever you would call this. It is a pretty sobering experience to say the least!

I have little experience with this from previous parts of my life. It is interesting the emotions it brings up!

I appreciate the personal stories here and I think the next time I’m more likely to just call in the authorities and let the chips fall where they may.

I spoke with him about contacting family members if he was in crises, how he felt about that, and he said which ones it is okay with him to contact. I don’t have their contact information, but I may be able to locate it.

There is nothing easy about day to day life overseas!


Thank you Notwendy. Yes, your idea to call for help next time stuck out for me and I will do this. I can’t carry this burden on my shoulders. I hope it would help and not drive these issues underground. I asked him to let me know if he has such thoughts again. If he does I will call for help. There needs to be more sunlight on this.


Oh my goodness Cat! I cannot imagine having experienced this with so many other people! My heart goes out to you!

Yes, I am afraid. I have been leaning against staying together and I am reading up about how in order to think this through carefully and prepare more for that option. I think the option of leaving him holds a lot of potential dangers for me. Some of the time at least. Other times, I know it would be rough, but it could be possible. It is easier to have his cooperation, but if we are getting along too well I don’t know how he will take that. Between his strong emotions and me not really being able to talk with him like I would in a typical break up with someone who does not have mental health issues... .Ay, ay, ay!

I will move this over to Detaching. I was working there a bit yesterday and I think I can work out some of this out there - weighing the options and exploring what breaking up feels like for this kind of relationship.


Hi Red,   Thanks very much for your support and encouragement and checking in on me. I am grateful for that. It is important for me to not feel alone in this!

I am sorry for what happened with your ex, but grateful you are sharing it. It means a lot to have the chance to talk to others who have faced these struggles! You are so kind!   

sincerely, pearl.

I have dealt with them too, from my BPD mother. She had one attempt when I was very young and we kids were sent to stay with a relative for a while. I don't recall this one well. As a teen, she used some attention getting attempts- real or not, I don't know. She once came after me with a plastic bag over her head- I knew she wanted me to see it. That's a lot for a 13-14 year old to manage. My sibling once found her where she hurt herself- we don't know if it was accidental or deliberate.

I can not imagine the terror my father felt and know this is why he was so adamant we kids didn't upset her.

She hasn't )thank goodness) made threats recently but we did fear them.  Since we don't live near her, we know that we will call 911, neighbors and family near her if we had to. She knows that too. Suicide threats need to be handled by professionals- none of us are as well trained to help as they are.

I hope you can arrive at a place of peace with yourself no matter what you decide about the relationship. It would be easier if you had his cooperation, but I think often in these cases, that isn't possible. I do agree that the most dangerous time to leave a disordered person is when one does leave, which is why a safety plan is essential. Whatever you do decide, I know you will take care to keep yourself and him as safe as you possibly can.

We love you, Pearl, and we wish you strength, calm wisdom, steely determination—all qualities you have in abundance.     

Dear Pearl,
I went through your thread and, wow, it must have been a hard hard week.
The suicide threat must have been a huge thing, I've been there only once, recently, and it shook me for days.
And it made me question the same things, but what I realized is that if someone decides to hurt themselves there is not much we can do, even if we love them more than we love ourselves; and so my conclusion was that it was just another way to try to control me or keep me attached.
You've been brave in managing the situation the way you did, I would've been scared, and still I am, but what I know is that living in fear of something is not living.

You're strong and patient and I'm sure you'll manage everything in the best possible way.

A big hug,
MC

hi Cat,

  awww you make me blush!  

made it through another day. it's a bit of a rolling crisis. but hoping we can get him some help soon. we have an appointment with a counselor next week but i want to steer it towards him stabilizing his emotions and these suicidal thoughts. he wants to "save the relationship", when he is not trying to end it.

nothing else is possible until we can get him more stabilized. i'm just not sure what that looks like at this point. poor guy!

warmly, pearl.

Hi MC,

Thanks so much for your kindness and here's a big  for you too!

Yes, these issues around suicide are a real mind bender. He is on anti-depressants, but is also drinking daily while on them. Usually only 2 beers, but some days 4. Not a good combo for him I think, though he is more relaxed and friendly when he drinks.

I agree with you! I accept this may happen, and it will be an unbelievable tragedy if it does. I don't want to be held hostage by it either though. Not sure how to thread that needle. I think these are his genuine feelings, though the result can feel manipulative, but that is just how I'm reading these last months. He seems to be having a serious breakdown.

I am still amazed he manages to hold a job. Man, I am amazed he got another job after a layoff at the start of the year when I look back. It's been years of struggle and misery. I wish there was a way to take all his pain away. It is a lot to see him suffer... .and not have enough resources to intervene in this.

with gratitude, pearl.

Hi Pearl,

Gosh, you've got so much going on. I'm sorry to hear about the crisis and everything that goes with it - on top of living in a foreign country without many resources. That sounds really frightening.    I have several friends who have lived in foreign countries.

Like many of the others, my h has felt suicidal at times. The most recent time was about 5 months ago. After he told me that he was going to be moving out and filing for divorce and before he actually moved out, he said that he was feeling like he was going to hurt himself or me or our daughter. He perked up when he was talking about divorce; that was his plan instead. He also had signs of his self-harming which I wasn't going to mention in his state of mind. He moved out to a friend's house (the friend was encouraging the divorce) and met with a lawyer. I contacted the friend and told him that h was having a mental health crisis and should be encouraged to see a counselor. H found out that lawyer assisted divorces are expensive (can't do that impulsively) and take a while - so he decided against that. I was able to communicate with him through email without triggering him and cleared up some misunderstanding that h had and encouraged counseling for him.

He moved out of his friend's house because his friend was 'controlling' and into an apartment. He went to counseling for a couple of months, until he "felt better". Thankfully, I had several friends of my own who knew what was happening and thought it was dangerous. I also knew if he was still communicating with me and being truthful about his feelings, they would eventually swing back. It was a tense time, though.

My h is on antidepressants, too. I'm not so sure that they have helped the situation because this was the worst dysregulation I've seen in nearly 30 years.

Peace to you.

Hi empath,  :hi:

Thank you for your insights! I'm interested in how you mention that despite anti-depressants it was the worse dysregulation.

In a lot of way his anti-depressants help, but they (as expected) only help with part of things. But yes, this last incident was one of the worst and I've gotten a lot of "for worse" in our years together.

I have found some international assistance now - though I am nervous because he tracks all the phone calls I receive, but I decided to go ahead with it anyway - get this extra help I mean.

I've stood up to him before, and will again and again, that I have a right to talk to whomever I want and not disclose it to him. He has his own cell phone and can do as he pleases without any monitoring, I can't.

We will see a counselor next week (unless he cancels), and a divorce mediator in September (unless he cancels) and see what the next steps are. It is hard because he will say he wants to save things, and then flip, and then flip back, and then flip, on and on. He is aware this is a reason that I will not endlessly tolerate. It is already very far gone on this particular issue. I am just trying to honor a deadline we set to either continue the relationship or not. Even if we did "continue" past this deadline, it would not be a lifetime commitment past this time, just more time for him to get well enough to see if anything at all is possible.

It's hard. It's hard. My lifetime of experience says you give all you can to make something work. My experience also says abuse crosses a red line and can't be tolerated. We both stand to lose a lot by breaking up, but we can't go on like things are either. The last thing I needed was another personal tragedy and another mountain to climb, but that is what it is coming to!

thank you so much for your kindness, pearl.

For my h, the anti-depressant has increased his anxiety - now he has panic attacks and many "aches and pains" that coincide with his stress levels being high. He went through a period in his work life that was stressful because he was being placed in situations that reminded him of his personal life - and said that he was in so much pain that he couldn't work. I think the anti-depressant allowed him to stay for much longer than he would have otherwise, usually he would have quit the job before he became physically sick. That was after about a year on the anti-depressant.

Then most recently, he had more reminders of personal life from his church life. He stayed and was processing it - until there was a church crisis, and he quit in the middle of the crisis and also decided that he wanted a divorce from me. (first time that has happened and to him seemed like a more preferable option to hurting himself or me) He was also trying to calm himself by self-injury, but I guess that wasn't working either.

Of course, my h says his problem is depression... .  But deeper, he's afraid that there is something more serious... .The other issue is that he wasn't being fully honest with his previous counselor, and now he says she wasn't very helpful.

pearl and empath,
If you research the particular antidepressants your husbands are taking, you might discover that many are linked to an increase in suicidal ideation. Apparently some of the newer antidepressants are less likely to trigger SI.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3353604/

Wow, Cat! Thanks for looking out of us and sharing that info. I think he's on Lexapro... .gotta figure that out again!

p.s. and he drinks everyday, that can't be a good combo. yikes!
p.s.s. i've always wondered if he was undiagnosed bipolar.

with gratitude, pearl.

Yikes indeed.  https://www.healthline.com/health/depression/lexapro-and-alcohol

A few years ago my husband was combining pain meds and alcohol and the occasional muscle relaxer and sleeping pills at night. It was as though there was a thick barrier of brain fog between us. It certainly exacerbated the BPD symptoms, and since I didn't know what I know now, I know that my response added to that mix.

Now he's been doing Neurofeedback after seeing how much it improved my brain functioning after my concussion. And one of the things we've learned is how pharmaceuticals can have such a deleterious effect on suppression of brainwaves. I've not used them, but I've had plenty of conversations with the Neurofeedback practitioner about how even moderate use of benzodiazepines in particular can have damaging effects on brain functioning. And when people mix and match a variety of chemical compounds, it makes it more difficult for her to "clean up" their brain functioning.

Every week my husband gets to see a "brain map" and graphic representation of how well his different brainwaves are functioning, so I think that's been good motivation for him only to use alcohol. It's not great to overuse intoxicants, but the body does know how to process alcohol out of the system, as compared to pharmaceuticals, which leave a residue.

That said, of course lots of people absolutely need modern pharma and wouldn't be functional otherwise. However, people treat these drugs all too casually and don't realize how powerful they are.

Hi pearl,

I took Lexapro for a while, alone and also in combination with Neurontin, which is not a psych med primarily but is used as a mood stabilizer sometimes. I also have tried Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa and Wellbutrin. The SSRI"S alone did not help me level out to a point where I could effectively practice the tools I learned in therapy (i.e. though-stopping, etc.). The Wellbutrin made me even more depressed than before, to the point that I laid on the couch and did not want to move and also had anxiety attacks. Suicidal thoughts were not present before wellbutrin, but were after I started taking it, until I told my doctor and was sent to a mental health crisis center.

The antidepressant that worked best for me so far (because I have not tried all of them of course) was Effexor. This drug works on two chemicals in the brain, seratonin and noripinephrine. I needed that extra boost in my brain chemistry.
Antidepressants are not meant to completely take all the symptoms of sadness away, they simply are meant to restore the brain chemistry to a normal state so that tools learned in therapy can be used to manage one's life. I was told by my practicioner that my depression was largely situational (related to being separated from my children and also the stress of my h's psychotic breakdowns).

Alcohol and other mood-altering substances interfere with the production of seratonin in the brain. This is why many times recovering addicts and alcoholics are prescribed antidepressants to restore the seratonin levels that have been depleted by substance use. Combining alcohol or other drugs with SSRI or other antidepressants is counterproductive in that it basically cancels out what the medication is trying to do. It's like trying to fill a swimming pool with a hose while someone is draining it from a hole in the other side.

I hope you can help your h find the right combination of medication and treatment, and I know it's important to you that he receive help because he is suffering. Just remember that sometimes a mentally ill person is not capable of cooperating with his own best interests, and if that ends up being the case with you, it does not reflect a lack of character or commitment on your part if you come to the end of your power to change the situation.

Praying for you pearl,

Redeemed

My h is on Wellbutrin. I've told him that I was concerned about the effects that it was having on him, like the panic and anxiety that have increased as well as the "pain" that he has on a regular basis now. Those weren't present before he started taking the med. Of course, he dismissed my concerns. He was without it for about 3 months, and a couple of months in, we started making progress in our relationship again. Then, he started the meds again. Oh, he also developed high blood pressure after the Wellbutrin.

Pearl,
I just now got caught up on all that you’ve gone through in the last week. How are you feeling today?
BG

Oh pearl, so sorry to hear all you are going through. I was away for a while; just now, I am catching up with the boards.

I understand how you feel about your husband. We can’t assume it is only manipulation. We live with them and know how they are when they are ok. And we see the pain they are in. Mine too, wants to do it so he wouldn’t cause pain and trouble for us, he even counted how much money we would get…They suffer. I hope yours will go through with therapy. I am impressed with all that you have done to seek for help.

I also get it how lonely it can be in foreigner country and how you lose old friends over distance. It is frustrating to explain yourself. Especially when we are emotionally tired. It is good to share with people that goes through the same. You are expressing yourself so well. It is also good to see your own situation from different perspectives, even if we don’t like them. But you know all that 

Hug,
DW