BPDFamily.com

So... .uBPDh is now out of jail after almost nine months. Has a job, staying in a motel. He got a phone and is now texting and calling every day. I do not have the patience for this level of contact and it is greatly affecting my mood. He wants to talk on the same level that we did previously, and I am not emotionally in a stable enough place to handle this effectively. I have realized that I am going to have to seriously limit our contact if I am going to continue with the healing process.

He is still not allowed to have any contact with s2 according to child services until he passes a drug test. It will be his responsibility to contact his family court lawyer and find out how to go about doing that so he can have visitation. In the meantime he is coming up with all sorts of reasons to try to get me to "help" him which will likely mean that he would get to see s2 even though he is not supposed to. These reasons have included needing money for food, needing his tools for work, needing new shoes for work (I just sent him money for work boots a couple of months ago- now they are too heavy and hurt his feet), needing gloves for work, etc... .I have done my best to come up with ways to get him the items he needs (mainly the tools, they are in my car) without direct contact. When he saw that his excuses were not working out the way he wanted (which was to get me to meet him somewhere and then he could see s2 regardless of the no contact order) he texted me and just plain asked if he could keep s2 while I work tomorrow. I almost lost it on him, but I managed to send a straightforward text reminding him that I explained already that I will not violate the no contact order and put s2 at risk of being taken into state custody. Period. Blah blah hours of him calling me and rambling on about how he's doing better now, he realizes his mistakes, he feels so guilty, etc. etc... .then brought up again about how I could drop the protective order I have on him and he isn't sure it's valid anyway. We have already had that conversation as well. i stated again that it is definitely valid and I will not drop it because it's extra protection for me. He went off on the crazy train, asking me what kind of protection do I have and what kind of protection do I need, it's been nine months with no incidents (of course not, he's been in jail, I mean, what?) and then said he had some guys in jail who knew us and knew our whole situation and is convinced these guys were gang members which means (naturally) that I must be bringing our son around gang members and he is concerned for s2.

I don't even know how or what just happened in that conversation. I am still trying to figure out where that accusation came from and how his thought process wound up there. I mean... .gang members? I don't know any gang members. I don't even know anyone else who was in jail. I think he probably either made up the whole thing, or distorted some type of random conversation with someone to come to this type of conclusion. Either way, he hung up on me. When I blocked his number, he started calling me on messenger,  and wore me down until I answered. we proceeded to get into a circular argument about how he believes the protection order was falsely placed on him and said he denied in court that he hit or pushed me. Now, I know that I know that I know that he did deny at first, but then he did say it was true that it had happened and the judge granted the protetective order. UBPDh has twisted the facts to fit his version of reality, and in his mind he denied it and the judge granted it anyway and it wasn't fair. I caught myself resorting to JADE which made me even more frustrated than I was before and he kept trying to give me advice on letting go of the past and not being frustrated and that made me just want to choke him so I told him either we talk about something else or I'm going to hang up. Spent the next ten minutes rattling on about how he has to convince himself that he can get better, talked about spirituality and Jesus and letting go of anger and how it won't do any good to wonder if I'm cheating on him... .he was all over the place and I just kept quiet because I was really just not up to listening anymore. I was out of mental energy and could not remember a single tool to use from this site and so I said I was tired and going to bed.

I am mentally and emotionally exhausted from this whole series of conversations. I get mad when he downplays what happened, when he blames it on his drug use, when he rewrites history to fit what he wants to believe so he can go into victim mode, when he tries to analyze me and give me advice on how to heal and how to be more spiritually fit and then tells me that he isn't doing that when i know he is... .I am so, so confused and tired and frustrated, and I know that there is probably several things I could be doing differently.

I feel like I rambled in this post, sorry guys. I just don't even know how to process any of this. It's like talking to a bouncing rubber ball that changes emoji faces each time it hits the ground. And I realize I have a lot more anger, bitterness and MUCH less threshold of tolerance for BPD behavior than I thought.

I just needed to tell someone who understands what these type of conversations are like.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

He's employed, he has a place to stay and now he's blowing up your phone, wanting things to get back to where they were before he assaulted you and spent 9 months in jail. You're not ready to resume this close contact and you worry that he's trying to bust boundaries regarding the restraining order and seeing your son.

As you try to respond to his various attempts to contact you, he's engaging you in circular arguments and even denying that he assaulted you at all.

You don't need to listen to his ramblings, certainly not for more than a minute or two. Yes, you're exhausted by this. Anyone would be.   

Thanks Cat,
He resents the restrictions and is trying to find a way around them. He's caught up in suspicious and paranoid thinking and is attempting to draw me closer for reassuring and comfort. I'm not ready for much close contact and also see the potential for vindictive behavior if I don't do what he wants. Proceeding with extreme caution

When I was feeling drained by my exBPDgf and her constant self-induced crises and pleas for help, I started by asking, "Please stop blowing up my phone, I need headspace to concentrate on my own life for a minute." Well, that didn't work.

I decided I would TAKE my space, no more asking. First, I told her I would no longer be reachable via phone or text, and blocked her number. When she continued to contact me via facebook messenger, I told her I would only check and answer messenger once a day, then set her to "ignore." That way I couldn't see her incoming messages until I went into my phone and checked. 

This gave me the peace and quiet I needed in my life. The less I responded to her every word, the less she tried to contact me about every little thing. Eventually, when the relationship deteriorated further, I blocked her on facebook and messenger altogether. Now, she can only contact me via an email address that she knows I only check every couple of days.

If she calls me from a number I don't recognize and I pick up, I get off the phone quickly and politely, then block that number. Then I remind her via email that I am not available for phone calls. I let her email me because otherwise she starts to go nuts and has contacted my mother before. It's taken some time and effort, but I definitely achieved a level of low contact I'm comfortable with.

I wish you luck. I remember feeling just as exhausted and out of patience as you feel, it's no fun. Do what you need to do to get the space you need. Peace.   

Thanks, LI, I may have to do that. He just texted me a picture of his severe sunburn and said he needs help putting the burn gel on. Think it's a ploy to get me to come to his hotel room and that's a huge red flag for me. Lots of anxiety over this

You're reading this correctly.   

And you're feeling anxiety because you have spent a lifetime being helpful and kind and jumping to rescue others. What if you thought about rescuing yourself. You've been through a severe trauma, going through what you've experienced in the last few years, and much of that is due to his behavior. He undoubtedly expects you to rescue him time after time. But what does that teach him when you rescue him from the consequences of his behavior? Or lack of using sunscreen?

You rescue the little things, then they expect you to rescue them from the more consequential things. What kind of relationship do you want with him?

I don't want to be the rescuer. Not when I am struggling to find balance in taking care of myself and S2.

I have definitely been through extreme trauma. But once again our conversations focus on him and what he is going through. His guilt, his sorrow, his depression, his needs. Any acknowledgement of my pain or struggle for healing is brief and then back to the competition of whose pain is worse and it's always him.

I expect extinction bursts and I am anxious about that. I have hidden the extent of our contact from most people. There are not many who understand and don't judge me for still maintaining contact

He texted me another picture and said he needs my help if I could. It occurred to me that if he can take pictures of it, he can reach it to put gel on it. I almost told him that, but changed my mind and simply said that I am tired and going straight to pick up S2 and going home because I have to work early.
He responded "as you wish" followed by description of how it burns and is gross.

Sigh.

Hi Redeemed, I am so sorry for the stress and pain you are going through. This may very well be a preview of what's ahead for me in the next year, even though jail probably won't be involved.

But the nonstop calling -> blocked calls and claims of change are all too familiar. Told her to stop hitting / stealing / destroying, she said that was in the past (2 weeks ago). Block her on the phone, she posts to my music school's FB page about how we are getting a divorce.

You need to keep doing exactly what you've been doing, say no, block the calls, and batten down the hatches when the extinction burst storm comes. But I won't undermine the safety of you and s2 during this time. Would it be possible to get in touch with the police regarding his recent behavior and see about arranging some protection? I've been away from the US for too many years so not really sure how this works.

I hope you do not judge yourself for maintaining a little contact. He is the father of your children, and the co-parent bond is very difficult to break. I will always love my wife in some way no matter what happens and always care about her. But putting responsibility for his life in his own hands is in some ways the greatest act of love you can do for him.

We are all here for you. You will get through this!

Sending you strength,
~ROE

Yes, the extreme self-centeredness is hard to imagine. And I understand how it feels that people might question that you still have feelings for him. My first husband was repeatedly violent to me, regularly verbally abusive, had multiple affairs, and was financially irresponsible. Yet, I had made a commitment to him and I kept on trying over and over, hoping that he would become a better man.

Well, finally it got to be too much for me and I ended the marriage. Fast forward several years: he got arrested for beating up his next wife; he skipped town prior to his arraignment; he moved across the country to avoid the active arrest warrant. Now years later, I get phone calls from creditors who've researched him online who are trying to track him down for unpaid bills.

Lesson learned: When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou

Thanks ROE and Cat,

Roe, I do have an order of protection in place that states that he is not allowed to come to my home or my workplace. I chose to leave the option of contact in place, but child services made me sign a safety agreement that says that uBPDh can not have any contact with s2 until he passes a drug test. It's his responsibility to call his lawyer and child services and find out how to go about doing that. He does not like the consequences of his actions. He thinks that it isn't fair, and he goes on and on about how he didn't mean to be that person and do the things that he did and he thinks that being separated from his son is too severe of a consequence. He quotes the Bible. Asked me last night where in the Bible it says that he should be separated from his wife and children . He is constantly pouring on to me the grief and depression he feels, and then tries to use that to manipulate me into violating the no contact order and let him see s2.
No matter how much I explain to him that allowing contact would put s2 at risk for being taken away from me, he continues to try to use FOG to get me to let him see our son. He is putting his own feelings ahead of s2's long term best interests which is the distorted thinking that caused these circumstances to begin with.

Last night I hung up on him and turned the phone off rather than get into a circular argument about people I added onto our Facebook page. Today he blew my phone up and finally said "You win, please let me talk to him." I responded that it wasn't a competition, it was about me preserving my serenity. He asked if I could pick up lunch and bring my car to the shop he works at so he could look over my car and see s2.  I simply responded "no." I am not going to go over the reasons why for the fifty-seventh time.

This is making me frustrated and tired. I am short tempered and irritable and I am afraid it is affecting s2.

It sounds like you’re letting these conversations go on too long. I like what I hear from others in this position: state your boundary once, at most twice, then be done with the conversation. I know it’s hard but if he realizes that begging, pleading, quoting the Bible, whining cause you to stop listening, he will learn not to do that.

It does him no favors to listen to these endless pleas, and certainly isn’t good for you or your son.

It sounds like you can make things a little clearer to him.  As I understand what you are saying, this is it in a nutshell:

If he wants to see you and your son, he needs to pass a drug test and get the CPS restriction lifted.  Until that is done, you and your son will not see him whether he has a sun burn or an arm missing.

Once that is established, each time he has some excuse to see you, you can respond back, "That would involve seeing you.  Has the CPS order been removed?"  If he lies and says yes, you can respond, ok let me check with CPS and get back to you.

Redeemed-
This sounds like an extremely stressful situation.  It is great that you can stand up to the guilt trips and manipulations.  It is so easy to feel guilty and/or become the rescuer.  I was worn out just reading through the conversation that you had.  I think I would have hung up about halfway through if not sooner out of frustration.  I am wondering if maybe he would have been less triggered if you would have added a validating comment at the beginning about how you understand that it is hard for him to be away from his son etc.   It may not have made any difference or helped at all.  It was just a thought I had and wanted to share it.  I hope that you will find the strength to continue on.  Taking care of a two year and trying to manage a pwBPD/PD is almost like a full time job with no pay.  Hang in there!

Woodchuck

Cat, I know I am letting the conversations go on too long. Some of the time we talk about spiritual books we have been reading, and it's almost like talking to a normal person. But he always has a request to see me or s2 and on top of that he insists on calling me at least once an hour. ONCE EVERY HOUR and if I would let him he would stay on the phone with me for most of the day and night. He literally wants to be in contact constantly. Our codependent r/s has conditioned him to expect this. I am getting a crash course in boundaries it seems, and I am fumbling with it a bit but determined to not let him throw me off track and distract me from my goals.
Fian, I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. After reiterating AGAIN today about the CPS order he finally got it that he would have to call and ask them what to do to lift the no contact. He told me he did call and that they had no record of the woman who handled our case (she was in training) and they said that the case had been closed with no services or further actions necessary. I called CPS and asked for the team leader and left a message to have her call me back. I will not take his word for anything and I will assume the no contact is in place until CPS tells me differently. There is not a no contact order between he and I so he assumes that I will come running to his every need even if I don't bring s2 with me.
Woodchuck, I am trying to practice some validation but I have not learned to do it well at all. I let myself focus on what he says that I disagree with instead of validating the underlying feeling. It is so hard not to do that! I have let him talk about how much he misses the kids and I have tried to be encouraging and tell him that God will see him through this. He keeps saying he trusts God and God has a plan and God will provide and God has changed him. Yet he wants instantaneous results. I understand how much it hurts to miss the kids. I still don't have custody of our oldest five! In fact, I haven't been taken off of supervised visits myself with the oldest five for FOUR YEARS now and I even DO anything that CPS says I did. I have been patiently waiting and hoping and praying and struggling to get things in place where we could have the kids back, and then he would inevitably tear down all I had worked to build either through gambling and financial irresponsibility, drug use and/or physical and verbal abuse.
He just called and immediately started in on how it's not fair that he can't see the kids because what happened was NOT HIS FAULT> not his fault, y'all, that he took a dangerous drug that alters his psychological state (not the first time) and induces psychosis (again not the first time!) and proceeded to become so verbally and physically abusive that I could not take one more minute of it. Not his fault. Because he DIDN"T MEAN TO. He didn't want this to happen, so therefore he has decided it was out of his control. Decided that because he had been severely dehydrated and had extreme back and shoulder pain that it wasn't his fault when his best friend from his childhood hometown offered him drugs that he knew he shouldn't take. All the resulting actions were NOT HIS FAULT, because he was laid up on the couch "begging for help."
Now, this was like two minutes into the last phone call. And I lost it. I said it absolutely was his fault, and nobody could have helped him because he wouldn't let anyone get him the help he needed (which was to go to a detox and rehab facility/mental health facility) and I was sick of hearing about how he was such a victim and he interrupted me to say "Bring me a pack of cigarettes. I'm out."

I said "NO" and hung up and turned off the phone. I am ashamed to admit this, but I just took him a pack of cigarettes and a can of dip yesterday (not with s2) so I know that he is at least not out of dip, and I don't care if he is, and I am super, super p'd that he would be so arrogant as to TELL me to bring him cigarettes when I am already highly frustrated AND HE KNOWS I HAVE s2 so he basically is saying that he does not care if there is a no contact order or not and he does not care if s2 gets taken away from me or not as long as he gets his immediate needs me and his uncomfortable feelings soothed NOW.

 :cursing: I just want to scream.

I totally get how easy it is to get hooked into a conversation when it feels like you're talking to a normal person. And of course, you want to believe that he can be normal--I'm an optimist too.    Then, he shifts gears and asks to see your son.    And then blows up your phone.   :cursing:

Yes, you're getting a crash course in boundaries, but you're doing well.    It takes practice, for sure, particularly for those of us who've spent a lifetime trying to be nice and helpful.

I can see how difficult it is for you when he won't take responsibility for the consequences of his behavior. And when you challenged his belief in his victimhood, he interrupted you with a request for cigarettes. I can completely understand how infuriating that must have been. And can't he buy his own cigarettes?

So he's willing to put your custody of your son at risk just because he wants to see him? And he hasn't taken steps to do the drug test and lift the court order? He denies that he attacked you, which led to him spending 9 months in jail. And he believes that the reason he can't see his kids is not his fault because he didn't mean to get out of control and violent when he took a dangerous drug.

Hearing all that, what role do you want him to play in your life and your children's lives in the future?


 

Hi Redeemed, 

I just want to send you some encouragement.  I know it’s uncomfortable for you when he asks for something.  I totally get that, as it is something I have worked on.  To stay on our own paths we must become comfortable with the discomfort.  From reading your posts, I think this will be key in your moving forward.  You have to get accustomed to those guilty twinges and learn not to react to them.

How much time and energy do you think you would be able to spare in the way of a phone calls or messages?  That is a good place to start.  You can have a boundary there. 

Of course he would like for you to cater to his wishes, but I don’t think you have time or energy for that.  You have yourself and your son to take care of.  Taking care of your child is helping him whether he acknowledges it or not.  So just remind yourself of that.

I just applaud you.  You are courageous.  You bravery is a big asset to you and your son.  You have been the hero of your story so far.  Keep up the good work. 

I said a prayer for you today.

Peace and blessings,

Mustbeabetterway

Hey... .I know this is a difficult and emotional time.

Complete clarity:  It's not about what he sends... .it's about you listening.

He is disordered and is doing what he does.  No shock there.  Can you leave your phone off or block the number except when YOU have a reason to contact him?

It's up to YOU to set the boundaries... .

 

FF

FF,
/s
I have started just turning the phone off. I can't stand to hear the incessant buzzing of call after call and message after message. I tried blocking, but then he called on messenger. I know there is a way to block that too but I haven't figured it out yet. I am not the most proficient user of technology  . I prefer blocking because I don't receive all the messages, because if I turn my phone off then I have 57 messages when I turn it on.

I am breaking out of my seven-year pattern of jumping to answer his calls and texts within so many minutes. He used to dysregulate so badly if he didn't get an answer from me immediately, and he had to know where I was and what I was doing all the time. I also over the course of our r/s allowed him to run me to death with "errands" that he should have been handling himself. It was not uncommon for him to call me to bring him something to work two or three times a day, three or more times a week. Money for a drink, a tool he forgot, cigarettes he left... .the list goes on and on and he would dysregulate so badly if i didn't do what he asked that I complied with every request to keep the peace (which was always short-lived anyway. ) Now, I have a solid foundation from posting on these boards since Jan and I know that I don't have to do things for him that he should be doing for himself, and I don't have to listen to his crap, and I don't have to let him into my space (mentally) if I choose not to.

It's still hard.

Good work!   


Yes, it becomes a rather effective way of maintaining control. If it no longer works, then it will be abandoned as a strategy.


It's so easy to get into these patterns. We can start off wanting to be nice and helpful. Then it becomes an obligation. Then it can become frightening if we don't comply with the demand on their timetable. And as you've discovered, keeping the peace was a fragile endeavor anyway.


   You're making good progress and you sound strong and committed to making your life better. It is hard to break these old patterns that have been with us for years, maybe for a lifetime. But what is good motivation is knowing that we have to stand strong and not bend (and create intermittent reinforcement)--otherwise our efforts are for naught. When we start noticing changing patterns after we've changed, it feels really good to be free from being stuck in a servant role to our BPD loved ones in an effort to keep the peace.

   

I'm so proud of you for turning off the phone!

Listen... .I'm going to push you a bit further.

When you turn on the phone and there are 57 messages... .do you think you can delete them quickly... without reading/understanding them?

Is there someone that can help you... that would scroll through them so that if something actually important was in there... .it could be saved.

How does that idea sit with you?

FF

Thanks Mustbe!

I definitely don't have the time or energy for that. He is desperately trying to get things as close as possible back to where they were before, as a comfort measure I'm sure, and all the while he denies that he is trying to push me back into a close r/s with him.

He wants us to participate in a marriage bible study with a couple from his church. I'm sure these are very nice people who help average couples through conflict using biblical principles, but I doubt seriously they are trained to help high conflict couples who have faced issues such as substance abuse, BPD, and domestic violence. Especially because he said he would not disclose what happened, only tell them where we are now, which is separated. I don't think a marriage bible study under less than honest conditions would gain us anything. Also, he is not receiving any type of counseling on his own. He seems to think going to church and reading the bible has changed him. Now, I am not one to say that God alone does not have the power to heal. He absolutely does, but I seriously doubt that forty years of dysfunctional behavior and distorted thinking has changed significantly just because he studied the Bible for nine months in jail. 

FF, normally I just scan through the messages and do not respond to any dysregulated ones. I may not respond to any of them. His pattern is to repeatedly attempt contact, dysregulate, explain /apologize, then text about something normal and pretend none of the previous texts happened, then possibly use some type of "emergency" to get a response. After I hung up and left the phone off all night a couple days ago, his "emergency" was that his mother was going to have to take her great-grandchild to the doctor in Memphis (the baby was born addicted to meth. She has custody, and the baby has lots of issues, most recently that he is passing blood in his stool.) He followed that text with "Help her please." So I simply called my MIL and she said she was waiting for the doctor to call and tell her when the first available appointment was. It was not an emergency. He made it sound like she was hopping the first ambulance out there.

He called his mother while I was on the phone with her, just to see if she had talked to me. He's driving her crazy too.

He wants me to be affectionate and have intimate contact with him which is something I absolutely cannot even think about right now. I'm sure he sees it as signs of rejection and abandonment, but I just don't really care. I'm sick of worrying about his emotional state. For years I have neglected my own because his needs were larger than life, and I am going to do what I need to do to heal whether he likes it or not. Period.

He says he feels like he is losing his soul mate. He asked didn't I feel like that too.

I said I felt like mine had been gone for years. I don't think he heard my response, because he was already on to the next sentence about how hurt he is.

Thanks everyone for being here. I don't know if I could do any of this without support from you guys!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

Marriage bible study is a woefully inadequate way to address the issues in many of our marriages here. He probably wouldn't even disclose the protection order which is part of where you are now. One of the central tenants of the Bible is that we have to be honest about where we are and how we got there (honest about our sinful thoughts, words, and actions)... .  and be willing to turn from them and make amends.


Go for it!

I'm praying for you, too.

This weekend I had a rarely lucid "heart to heart" with uBPDw, where she even showed empathy and talked about how optimistic she was about her own recovery. I'll admit I was moved deeply and have given consideration to trying to stick it out with her.

I do love my wife, and there is nothing wrong with that. And I can see you do on some level still love your husband, Redeemed, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either.

But then I realized that I cannot think emotionally when making plans about the situation. I have to go into pure rationality and think about what's best for everyone, especially the children. I think you are doing an awesome job at this and I am inspired.

~ROE

Yes, I agree. There is no way to work through all the issues that surround this r/s without disclosing or discussing the past. Also I know he has a habit of painting things the way he wants other people to see them; i.e., downplaying the severity of what actually happened (generalizing that he messed up, went to jail, but not giving the back story of the OTHER times this pretty much exact same thing happened) and throwing a lot of the responsibility for our separation onto me (well look guys, I know I made a mistake and I'm sorry for it and I'm trying to get better but she is holding onto a lot of resentment that she can't get past) and I don't think any type of marriage counseling period would help without him getting individual treatment of some sort.


It's really hard, ROE, and I think the only reason I am holding to my guns this time is because I allowed emotions to make decisions for me so many times before. I gave him chance after chance and tried to believe that he would get better but he never stuck with any type of counseling or treatment long enough to make any progress. I kept hoping for a miracle, and in the process of trying to save him I kept myself from getting custody of my kids back. Five years I have been separated from them, and five years I tried to steer him towards the right treatment so our family could safely be together. None of my efforts worked and I feel as though I have wasted enough time focusing on "helping" him get it together so he can have his children. I will not make the mistake again of prolonging the separation from my children because I am trying to save him.

He actually suggested we move back in together. I told him that wasn't going to happen. I can't believe he even thought it would be a possibility. There is no way I will get to have my kids come overnight to stay with me if I move back in with him, not to mention that I in no way feel that it would be safe for me or S2. That just showed me how out of touch with reality he is. He doesn't grasp the concept of why that would not be a wise choice for me.

Today he texted me and said he forgot to make his lunch because he stayed up watching Drive Thru History on TBN. Asked me if I could help. This first of all makes me frustrated. Then I feel the slight pull of the instinct to help because I don't like to think about people going hungry. Then I think, this is exactly what I used to do all the time and it only reinforced the likelihood that it will happen again. And it's not my problem to solve. And it doesn't teach him that he should be more responsible if he wants to have lunch for work. Then I think "am I being hard-hearted about this?" People do forget stuff. But it would only make it more likely that he will expect me to do more stuff like that. I already gave him money to do laundry twice this week, with a little
extra to get food if he needs it. Feel like I shouldn't have done that. I swing back and forth between what is legitimate compassion and kindness and help and what is care-taking that I shouldn't be doing.

Also feel like maybe some legitimate help that I would do for someone else out of kindness can't be afforded in this situation sometimes, given the way he tends to suck all the life and energy out of me from his constant neediness.

still trying to navigate this "new me" and it's a little murky, but I think it helps to sort some of it out by posting. Even it doesn't come out as organized as I want it to sound.

Thanks for your help everybody 

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

You've got many years of history to draw from and you see how impossible it would be to make any progress in a faith based counseling environment when he deems certain parts of your past off limits. And for him to paint you as the obstacle holding back improvement due to resentment of his behavior in the past--well, that's certainly not what you want to deal with. 

Previously your empathy and sympathy allowed you to give him many "second chances" but now you're noting that those chances didn't generate any improvement because he bailed out of counseling and treatment programs. And by extending him so much grace, you shot yourself in the foot about getting custody back of your children.

He seems to think that things will go back to where they used to be, with you living with him, but you realize how vulnerable that would make you and your youngest child.

In the meantime, he expects you to pick up his slack about things he forgets and it's frustrating because you're aware of that pattern reemerging. You want to be kind and helpful, but at the same time, you want him to learn to be responsible for himself.

It's a challenge to think this way because it goes against your patterning. I completely understand because I had been trained by my upbringing to be kind and helpful and it was totally part of my self-concept. Also my BPD mother used to accuse me of being selfish if I didn't do what she asked. So I was very prone to being manipulated by others if they questioned whether I was being unhelpful or selfish.

Once I realized that, I was OK with other people thinking poorly of me because I knew in my heart that I have good intentions and I don't want to hurt others. Also it became very obvious that they were manipulating me and that didn't sit well.

Now I do what I want and am helpful when I want, rather than as a reflex response and as a result, I no longer feel resentful or taken advantage of.

You are spot on Cat! I have heard so many times from him about how I was "selfish" or "not showing care and concern" that now this repeats in my own thoughts without even being said to me and I have to tell that voice to shut up. I have also found that if I refuse or ignore one request for help (i.e., the plea to bring him lunch which later turned in to lunch+energy drink, and I did not respond even though I received twenty phone calls and countless texts) then another more heart-string-pulling request will replace the first (wanting me to come by so he can check all the fluids in my car for me and please, please let him see s2). I am still on the fence about the visiting thing. He claims he called CPS and spoke to the actual case worker who was assigned to my case when I made the report (not the girl who actually did all the interviewing and drug testing and paperwork... .and threatening me... .and showing up at my job demanding to know my schedule... .that girl was in training and has apparently been employed in another office elsewhere) and the case worker said that there was nothing on file for my case regarding s2 that says he can't have contact. I have tried to call the case worker myself and have not gotten through, nor has she returned my messages. So I kind of feel like he may be telling the truth, and I kind of feel like he may not be, but I don't know what to do because I can't make contact with the case worker to confirm one way or another. I do know how this department works, and it would not surprise me at all if there really were no restrictions, and that girl in training was just using our case to practice her "bulldog tactics"- which would kind of irk me really, because she caused a lot of stress to me and basically threatened to take s2 if I did not sign the safety agreement and get the protective order- but it would definitely not surprise me to find out that all that was not as serious as she made it sound and there really was nothing in the file at all. The case report that went on file in the courts regarding the circumstances surrounding the removal of our other children was chock full of incorrect statements and blatant non-truths. But I don't want to take a chance on CPS getting involved again in the future without me having something in writing from the department stating what if any limitations there are on visitation between uBPDh and s2. And if there aren't, then that means it will be up to my discretion when, where and how often he sees him- and I do not look forward to that ball game. 

I am feeling pressure in other areas as well. I have yet to find a suitable home for me and s2 and I really need to, because I need the extra room to be able to go to court to get overnight visits with my kids. Also my current roommate is pregnant again, so she will definitely need the extra space. I can't afford much, and I have a huge back payment due to the utility company here so I will probably have to find something a little further out in a surrounding county. Also I am starting back to school next week, I can't file my financial aid until I get my 2016 tax info for the FAFSA and I am having trouble doing that. I have two kids birthdays coming up, my sister wants me to help them get their piano tuned so D11 can learn piano, and on top of that I am behind in my own child support. Some of it goes to the state, but some of it is back child support the court awarded to my sister for the eight months she had Dalmost-10 and D11 before getting guardianship. Today she proposed that I use my share of the inheritance from my mother (it's not a lot) to pay the back child support to her.  I am super stressed and trying NOT to be stressed, and trying to trust God and not worry because I want to have faith and not fear... .but it's hard and it takes mental energy to work through the anxiety every time it wells up. And I'm tired. And I feel like there's always someone who has something they want me to do... .I don't mind if it's for my kids. I will do anything for them. But I also have a job where I meet people's needs all day (I wait tables) and so I just get tired of caring sometimes what other people need. I try not to let my attitude get sour, because negative thoughts produce a negative mood, and that spills out onto others when I don't mean for it to do so.

Also a bad attitude doesn't generate many good tips... .

I am trying to "stay in today" and not look too far ahead. It's good to make plans, but I can make worries as well if I focus on things I can't do anything about today.

Therapist cancelled today, and I haven't been in over a month. Had to reschedule again. Hopefully I can get a couple of appointments close together, because I am seeing signs of depression crop up and I have to deal with those before they get too bad. It's easier to stop yourself from sliding into the pit than it is to crawl out once you've fallen in.

Thanks again for listening to me ramble everyone 

Redeemed

It must be frustrating not knowing one way or another about whether CPS is still actively restricting him from visiting your son, since they're not returning your phone calls. And once that restriction is lifted, you don't have them as an excuse for not being around him with your child.

You've got a lot on your plate with needing to find a larger place and starting school, in addition to financial burdens coming soon. Fortunately you don't have all this happening at once.

I've waited tables too and sometimes you definitely have to be a good actress since you're not feeling it. Considering all that you're juggling, it sounds like you're holding up well.    It will be good to get some support in therapy when you can, but you're doing a good job and keeping in good spirits.  

Cat

There is an option on the FAFSA to use "estimated" information.

You can come back later and import the real data, when you get access to it.

FF

FF that's awesome  I have a copy of my w2 so maybe I can use that and go ahead and do it. Waiting for a copy of my tax return to be emailed, then I can forward it to the financial aid office. Yay!

Redeemed

If you have actually filed you taxes... can you not use the "data retrieval tool"? 

Usually you only estimate when there has been a delay and you are late.

FF

I just got them processed and have to print sign and mail in. UBPDh refused to file jointly and I never got around to doing it due to chaos, moving, moving again... .anyway, I have to mail it in to officially file. Then financial aid office at my school wants a copy.

OK... .keep copies and mail them in  with certified return receipt.

I actually had the post office send my federal taxes to the state tax return place, even though it was addressed correctly. 

The "proof" from post office kept me from getting penalties.

They are going to hit you with penalties and interest for the late file.  Once they send you the letter saying you owe those, call them up (info on the letter) and ask for an "abatement" of penalties.  As long as this is first time, they shouldn't even be interested in the reason.

If needed you can cite "family health issues"... .and it should still go through.

Fun meter pegged when dealing with tax stuff...

FF

I'm actually due a refund of $178. The tax preparer said I may not have penalties since I don't owe the IRS. We shall see... .there's no state income tax where I live, so hopefully it won't be sent to the wrong place. Really excited about starting school again. Makes me feel productive.

I have realized that if there are no restrictions from cps on visiting uBPDh, then I have to decide if I can be comfortable with s2 seeing him. Supervised, no problem, but at what point do I trust him to be unsupervised? If he's sober, he has always been a loving caregiver to s2. Even when not sober he has never been cruel to him directly. Hard to determine what is right.

What's your next step in finding out whether CPS is still preventing him from seeing your son? And is he staying sober as far as you know?

Redeemed,

I want to drop in and say hello.  I’m following your thread and it seems as if you are making sound decisions. 

Keep up the good work.  We are with you.

Mustbe

Thank you Cat and Must be,

I don't know what to do if I can't get a response from cps. Honestly, it leads me to believe that it's not that important to them if they are not calling back. He is staying sober far as I know. I just have a lot of fear surrounding the situation, mostly due to my experience with cps regarding my other kids.

Redeemed

I would find a psychologist or someone "on your team" to help you make this decision... or make this decision for you.

FF

It makes sense that you're wary about CPS since you're still having to jump through hoops with them about the custody of your other children and you don't want to be vulnerable to that again with your two year old.

When does school start for you? And what is your course of study?

School starts tomorrow Aug 20. I'm taking an accelerated degree program for adults in organizational leadership, which is basically business management under a different name. I hope to be able to work in marketing, particularly content marketing.
The crazy thing is that dcs is no longer actively involved in my other kids case since my sister got guardianship. But I am still held to the standards they set. I completed everything they asked me to do, even though they kept trying to say in court that I had not complied. They deliberately put off clarification on some "services" that didn't make sense anyway and could have been deemed unnecessary by a statement from my counselor. They tried to force me to attend a voluntary support group that didn't allow court ordered clients and then lied and said that I deliberately misled the group adviser about my situation, then lied and said that I refused services. They also ran out of stuff to have me do and tried to recommend that I start over and repeat some of it.

Terribly frustrating.

Redeemed

Do you have all of this in writing?

Is the county you are in a small county or a larger... .wealthier county?

Most smaller places have lots of "newbies".  Once they get their quals they move to higher paying places.

So... .lots more "rookie" mistakes in smaller counties.

Basically you need to figure out if it is rookie stuff or deliberate.

FF

FF it's kind of confusing, the family court is in a rural county because that's where lived when the kids were originally taken. However, the cps case workers were from a larger county and the first worker we had was great. Unfortunately she retired and our new worker was against us from the start. I know without a doubt that it was deliberate. I saw her straight out lie in a team meeting. She claimed she spoke to the administrator of the sexual abuse support group they were forcing me to attend, and that the administrator said I couldn't be in the group because I didn't believe the allegations. That never happened, and I confirmed it with the administrator.
I had custody granted back to me for two weeks back in 2014. Then "new allegations" of abuse suddenly surfaced, though we were never given any specifics about what they said was supposed to have happened. My daughters were subjected to a forensic interview, witnessed by law enforcement. No law enforcement ever questioned either me or my h. No criminal charges were ever filed. Every assessment we took, every counselor that talked to us (including my girls counselor who treated them for over a year following the second removal) all were in favor of the kids being returned. No proof of the so-called allegations was ever found, though the judge never asked for proof. He simply asked cps if they substantiated the allegations, they said yes and that was it. I believe that they deliberately made it impossible for me to get custody back because they knew they had taken my kids under false allegations, but they didn't care because they thought uBPDh was crazy and I was mentally unstable for trying to figure out what was wrong with him and get him the proper treatment. My sister also actively worked against me and ended up with my kids, who she taught to call her Mom. I only had a court appointed lawyer, who knew my h from grade school in their small hometown and of course she knew his troubled background and infamous family history. UBPDh's dad was a drug addict, domestic abuser, had many criminal charges, married five times, family very poor... .I don't think we ever had a chance.

I have the last of the service plans that were made, after the judge court ordered dcs to state exactly what remained for me to do. They didn't comply the first time, so he gave them another chance. I had completed everything, but uBPDh had another assessment to do. Dcs gave him no assistance in getting it done. We ran in circles trying to git done for over a year. Finally the court gave him the order he needed. Dcs liked to make certain things required of us that actually required court orders to get done, and we spent months calling different people and talking to counselors and lawyers and then would have to wait until court, which was spaced out every three to six months. Eventually they were able to keep us going in circles long enough that they could argue that the children needed permanency, making it seem like our fault and not theirs of course. And the judge granted the guardianship to my sister.

Funny thing though, while dcs was actively trying to put us off from getting my other kids and pushing for my sister to get guardianship... .they never made one move on taking my youngest. We were battling for our oldest kids while we had full uninterrupted custody of our youngest son. Dcs never got involved with him until I called them out of fear and desperation last fall when uBPDh was in a psychotic state and took off with s2 after refusing to let me get him out of the car.

So tell me why I was a fit enough parent to keep s2 but not fit enough to have my other kids. Yea, I absolutely know without a doubt that it was deliberate.

Redeemed

I Am Redeemed, I am new to this discussion lately, but I recommend you read, "Splitting," by Eddy.  It's an eye opener.

My H is uBPD/uNPD and it's a daily trial to keep my sanity.

I have been given several books to read by my own psychotherapist as she suspects H is BPD from my description.   I know the diagnostic criteria and my H is surely BPD.  I have looked at his FOO and, oh, what a sordid mess.  I should never have married him.

FIL was uNPD and MIL was an enabler.  FIL worked low-skilled jobs his whole life and the family lived in poverty.  Sound familiar.  FIL took all the family surplus money and spent it all on himself: golf clubs, hunting equipment, etc. while the wife had nothing and children had little.  Now lives in poverty and hints he needs money to his son, which is my H.  BIL is a substance abuser and just stays sober barely enough to keep a low-skilled job.

H is the only person in his family who made anything of himself.

Keep your head high in this.   Take care.
 

Thank you Asking Why,

My h is pushing me to "work things out". Not just married but separated. He has been out of jail exactly three weeks, after an eight months sentence as a result of assaulting me. I have no plans to move back in with him and don't really know what the future holds for us. I don't know how to answer his questions, but he is pushing me to actively still be in the relationship and I know that I am trying to put distance in it because his past destructive behavior has nearly destroyed our family. I feel pressured and have a lot of trauma to work through. He would definitely have to show me an extended period of stability before I would consider reconciliation, but he doesn't want to wait. He wants me to commit now, and I can't. I may never feel safe in the house with him again. I definitely am not comfortable with intimate contact. He simply will not accept that I need time and space. I know that I will not be able to get my kids back if I don't distance myself from him, but he can't or won't grasp this concept. I am almost ready to just get a legal separation so he will stop smothering me and pressuring me for answers that I don't have.

Redeemed

How sad.  You have a right to assert your boundaries.  The push/pull of BPDs and their explosive tempers and need for intimacy are enough to make anyone very, very upset. 

The legal separation will send a strong message to your H that he needs to get his act together.

Hi Redeemed,  good for you that you are taking time to decide what you need instead of giving in to demands.    The pressure is tough, but it sounds like you know what you need for yourself.

Keep up the good work.  I am praying and rooting for you still.  

Peace and blessings,
Mustbeabetterway

Hi Redeemed,
I'm sorry to hear that your husband has been pressuring you to get back together with him. It seems that he still doesn't have any understanding about how deeply his behavior has affected you and your children.   

You're very wise to hold your ground at this point.    And yes, he needs to demonstrate stability and responsibility before you can entertain the thought about reconciling with him.

With school and work and a young son, you've got a lot to deal with at the moment. It's good that you're so self-aware and grounded. 

Cat

The pressure is definitely tough. He insists on trying to remain in contact all day and continues to ask me to bring him stuff. He won some money on a lottery ticket, offered to give me some of it. Then two days later he asked me for money so he could save what he had. Then he said he put it in his pocket which had a hole in it and lost it, and has been trying to get me to bring him cigarettes for two days. I'm really getting irritated with the whole thing.

Redeemed

So... can you detail some of this more.

Some he said she said.

He insists... you say no and turn off phone or otherwise remove yourself... right?  (I understand that it often doesn't seem that simple)

Another way to look at it.  He insists because it works.  What happens if his insistence stops paying off?

FF

I Am Redeemed, going no-contact is hard when our pwBPD is testing our boundaries. 

I believe this is what your H is trying to do. 

You have your eyes open now to the dynamics of BPD.

I wish you well in this.  Stay strong.

FF, the text conversation about the money went like this:

UBPDh: How's S2 and Moma (this was at 3:53 pm, seven minutes before I had to clock in for work and I did not respond to this.

UBPDh: (at 6:02 pm) You gotta come by and get some of this money. Later when your off. Don't ask questions.

--I did not respond--

UBPDh: (at 9:33 pm) I got s2 some stuff if he can come over tomorrow.

Me: I'm still at work. I have to close and I still have tables.

UBPDh: You got to come get this money please.

Me: I'm probably not getting off for another 45 minutes or so. I'm not going over there this late.

UBPDh: 500 dollars. Not asking you to hang out. Just get it and go.

UBPDh: Or I can bring it to you.

Me: No. You need it worse than me anyway.

UBPDh: What about s2 tomorrow.

Me: I'm not comfortable with that.

UBPDh: I went to store and got s2 and (my roommate's S2) some stuff. (sends pic of toys).

Me: Don't spend all your money.

UBPDh: Paid my rent. child support

UBPDh: It's not mine.

Me: Well, then I definitely don't want it. That sounds shady.

UBPDh: God is an awesome God. Jeremiah 29:11. It's good money.

Me: Whose good money is it then.

UBPDh: (sends another pic of toys) I got this for s2 and (my roommate's s2)

UBPDh: If I need the money worse than you then why you working extra. I'm just wanting to see our son and get caught up on lost time. Whatever you feel comfortable with. I just wouldn't do you like that. If you hadn't saw him in a long time I would let you see him anytime or watch him. What about I go to work then when you get done with your first shift tomorrow bring him over. And it's the govt's money.

UBPDh: Why are you not comfortable.
 
Me: I don't judge my decisions by what you would do. Im very cautious about what I do because I don't want there to be any chance of s2 coming under the radar of cps.

---I did not text him any more. He called at 11:30 pm. I answered. He told me the money was from a lottery ticket. Talked about what all he was able to pay and buy with it, lot of talk about God and was wondering how much of it he should tithe at church. Asked me my opinion. I said that the New Testament says to give what you have purposed in your heart, and to pray about it. Told him I was not going to let him watch s2 and that I would not have time in between shifts anyway to bring him over even if I was comfortable with that (which I am not, and he knows why, and we have been over the reasons why about ten zillion times.)

Last night he wanted me to come by to get some eggs. Eggs, of all things. Someone gave them to him and he can't use them because he is in a hotel room. Wanted me to pick him up some cigarettes. I never said I wanted the eggs, or that I was coming by. I texted him and told him s2 had a low fever and the babysitter had told me he was fussy, and I was going to get him. UBPDh asked to see him  :( and then texted "or just get him home." Thanks, that's what my plan was anyway. When I got home I got the following text;

UBPDh: Is he hot.

Me: A little.

UBPDh: I guess I thought I was going to get to see him and get some cigs. This sucks been without him and cigs all day. And him being sick makes me want one.

I did not respond. He called, I told him s2 was ok and he invited me to bible study the next day. I told him I had to open at work and then I would be babysitting until the evening.

This morning he texted:

UBPDh: hey mom, gonna be cool tonight so take s2 a jacket.

UBPDh: Hey text me first chance you get.

Me: What's up I'm trying to get ready for work.

UBPDh; never mind.

--He calls twice-- I don't answer--

UBPDh: If you have time and energy it would be appreciated could I get a energy drink and cigs this morning haven't had one in a few days.

UBPDh: OK please.

UBPDh: Never repay evil with evil. Feed your enemy and it will be as if throwing heaping coals on his head. I guess this means I am not your enemy. Im trying to understand you more and more but I don't.

Me: I have to be at work at ten. I told you that last night.

UBPDh: my bad you did. Stomach Is bothering me this am don't feel good. Please pray for me have a blessed day.


What do you guys make of this. It's a lot to read I know. I feel like I am doing good with not responding sometimes, but I wonder if I am making it worse by eventually responding even if I don't do what he wants. And the phone calls every night are getting on my nerves. I realized that I was answering them even when I did not want to, although i did feel that I should answer last night because I did want to tell him that s2 only had slight fever and he was ok. There were other texts yesterday that I did not respond to, mostly because I don't think that a response was necessary. Long texts detailing his prayers for the day and quoting bible verses. He's trying so hard to prove to me that he is "all about God." Still pushing marriage bible study which he calls counseling.

Read something last night about how domestic violence is not a marriage problem, and that pastors should not recommend marriage counseling. It's the problem of the abuser and his responsibility to seek specific help for it, and the wife should absolutely demand proof of substantial, consistent change before reconciliation is even considered.


Made sense to me but apparently not to uBPDh.

Sigh.

Redeemed

OK... here is my first "gut" reaction to this. 

I realize you are on the conflicted board and are trying to figure out what you will do with this relationship. 

My gut tells me you need to make some interim decisions and "lead" the relationship in that direction.  It sounds like you will be LC for a while and NC with S2 for a while, so use that as a base for what you do.

1.  Give him expectations for when to hear from you and then stick to that.  I would resist picking up the phone when he calls, unless you have texted him and asked him to call.

"Hey... .I read the texts you sent.  Thanks for reaching out.  I'll consider them and give you a response tonight before bedtime."

Then... .let him blow up the phone.

Pick a time that evening and spend 10 minutes or so sending him texts that respond (in a way you desire) to what he had texted the evening before.

Then... .read all the stuff that came in during the day.  Let him know you have it and will respond the next day before noon (or something like that)

Slowing things down is the goal.  Being deliberate about your responses is a goal.


Notice I haven't told you what to text him... .I've told you "how" (a process).

Before I give any advice on "what" to text him... .is he open to counseling for him and/or you both?  Maybe more important are you open?

FF

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