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Well today she came to see me , to tell me how the reasons she’s having a hard time advancing with me is because of her ex boyfriend.She said she feels bad for him, that he’s stopped smoking pot,that they can talk about things they never could before? That she doesn’t want to push him out of her life totally and wants to help him.Thats why she’s having a hard time building a life with me ? Although in her words she is in love with me?

I’ll be honest , I didn’t know what to say ? I just said to her we sometimes don’t get to pick our feelings towards ppl.Thats all I could muster because I was in shock that I’m not so many words she said she was still in love with her ex and can’t let go.As I’m writing this I’m between quiet/anger/sadness/crying or not to cry.This came out of nowhere, I never saw it coming,we never discuss him ever and it wasn’t an issue to me ,because frankly I thought it was a closed chapter in her life (her words a year ago).I feel stupid for losing almost a year of my life with her ,I feel stupid because  I lost out to a bipolar manic depressive individual with more problems than her? I guess the term nice guys finish last isn’t so far from the truth?

Then she asks me as she’s leaving with her son if I’m coming outside to great her goodbye , all I could do was just say no,kissed her cheek and told her to be safe ? I’m stunned,was /am/will be ? What does one do in this case ? I truly don’t want to hear from her right now and I hope to god I don’t get a goodnight I love you text like everything is honky Dory because it’s just not? She treated me poorly just this past weekend that I rolled over on and didn’t say a word about today,hoping maybe an apology, yet in the end she pities the guy who left her 3 times with no furniture or electrical I’m their house that she took a bath on and is still paying for?  Am I missing something here, why do I feel so stupid right now ? I’m sad,confused and just get the impression she just doesn’t care walking out ?

Stay calm, man. Calm.

The first thing here is not to over react. The second thing is to inventory what this really means. That will likely take a few days and some calm.

I'm not suggesting that you stay or go. I'm saying think before you act.

You know, it was only few weeks ago that you were writing that she was sleeping with him and someone else. You are writing today that your thought he was out of the picture for a long time. There is a lot of "feelings = facts" going on in the last couple of weeks and it drive you to painful and destructive extremes.

Take a breath. This could be bad, or it could just be a bump in the road.

What part of the paragraph above is what she said and what part is your extrapolation. What did she say exactly?

Break this down.  

Hi Shawnlam,

I hear that you are hurting. I hear that you feel a bit blindsided. Do you see this as a break up by her? Are you wanting to break up?

All you can do today is feel the feelings and let the decisions come in time, if they are yours to make.

I think what you said was a fine statement. "We sometimes don't get to pick our feelings towards people." You controlled yourself and did not say it in anger, fair comment.  I think you will find the more you stay in control through whatever is happening now the better you will get through it.

Anyone might feel "stupid" if they give a person a chance, restart a relationship, only to suddenly find out that said relationship isn't getting off the ground after all. Her feelings were complicated. That does not make you a fool, or stupid, or even mean you wasted time. No.

No matter what, even worst case scenario, and take this from someone with a lot of ex boyfriends, you learn something every time. In this case, no matter what, you have been inspired to be a better communicator for this or a future relationship. You did not waste your time. If you gave her love and made each other happy for any amount of time, you did not waste your time. Life is full of risks. We take them because we want to live and get as much as we can out of life. You have done your best here.

Just my opinion.

warmly, pearl.  

Actually skip the way I wrote the paragraph was exactly what she said to me in those words I promise there was no shawn translation in there

These two lines... .

 |---> That she doesn’t want to push him out of her life totally and wants to help him.
How does she want to help him? Do you know?

 |---> She is in love with me.
Is this true? She did come back as she said shew would (before).

Did she explain what these mean?

He is a bipolar manic depressive (not my opinion but an actual case) that had a hard life but nothing ridiculous.She feels bad for him and pities him.We just finished talking again and she has to call me back because she was crying too much and says she feels like garbage for having told me this stuff.I tried to explain to her that this ex is 37 years old and how can she help someone who hasn’t helped himself in 37 years ? He refuses meds and refuses help but keeps texting her stuff like (I’m moving out west forget about me blah blah blah). So in her words she feels bad for him and wants him to be happy so she can’t flush him out of her life.

Her words to me if she loves me , is because I’m caring ,generous , stable ,and fun to be around .Her words.

You get on the other side of this... .rather than go into defensive mode.

You could validate her for being honest. You could validate her for being a good person. You could suggest that this type of thing is risky for a couple if you both aren't involved and  you would like to help too.

Go easy with this.

You don't know what kind of F.O.G. is coming her way or why she feel obligation and guilt, but this is a BPD-ish thing. Once you start to become part of this, he will either drift away or ask her to make a decision - and then the obligation and guilt will be broken.

This is not good news. But it is not the end of the word.

With my partner, there was a time where she was splitting her time with me and two other things. One included a guy who had a crush on her and was her "friend". I slowly got involved in both things. She liked that. She felt she could tell me the truth even if awkward. The guy slowly went away. The other thing is something we do together often.

I have mentioned to you a few times that this can't work unless you make some changes in the way you deal with her, women in general. You get wounded fast and deep and then you push back. Often these things can be finessed.

See what I mean?

Something was off and she came clean. She wanted you acceptance. This is part of the process of building a relationship with any women.

Hi Shawnlam,

This sounds like the E in don't JADE. It sounds like judgement about the guy, which unless he is outright dangerous, is not a good idea especially as she cares about him. You lose nothing by acknowledging her complicated feelings. Her reasons for liking him are her reasons. Let it be.

I like the idea mentioned above about validating that she is a good person for telling you the truth and being honest. Better to establish that then her feeling she has to hide him or this from you. Don't make her give up a friend, let her learn that three is a crowd in a couple. The time for decisions does come.

warmly, pearl.

Well on the phone I did tell her I appreciated her telling me and it could not have been easy for her.She told me it was her therapist that on Thursday that said to her all the sessions lately have been with xyz, seems you have not let go of him.Thats when she went weird Thursday night and that today she chose to tell me all this .I told her on the phone call however that I honestly don’t know what to say here ?  She cried and asked me if we would still be able to talk ? I told her let’s not jump to conclusions and let’s just recap this .I repeated what she told me about this guy to make sure I understood and she then said to me
You always do this you control the situation and don’t let me talk to say what I want to say , so I then said , ok I was just trying to understand better what you were telling me .Please talk to me and tell me , she was too overwhelmed and said she feels too much like crap now and can’t talk can she call me back.I said sure .Some things that came from the talk were :
1: I asked her is there a chance she will get back together or it’s 100% done ? She said I can’t say 100% but I don’t want him back

2: I said when or will you ever say goodbye to him or keep him for life ? She said she doesn’t know but doesn’t want to hurt him

3: I said look I don’t even know what to say anymore to be honest simply because your telling me you don’t know what to do , you love me,but still have feelings for this guy? What do you want me to say here ?

I know I’m angry right now (mostly feel stupid) , but I’m really starting to think I deserve better than this.Sounds rash but even before this obstacle in the bettering a relationship post last week I said the same thing .Why do I need this in my life it just causes anxiety ,anger,lose of sleep ,health issues and for what? A future walk away possibility? A major health issue from all this stress? For particular reserved moments of regulated emotional love that come as often as an average summer thunderstorm? Am I really only worth crumbs ?

I know it seems small, and not enough right now, but technically she did say she does not want him back and she does love you.

She is probably experiencing a lot of shame and embarrassment. Perhaps reinforce that you appreciate her honesty, as hard as it is for BOTH of you.

Did you ask her if she has romantic feelings for both of you? And if so, how she would like to handle sorting that out?

with compassion, pearl.

I remember you were expressing ambivalence about the relationship, yes. I know you were struggling with that, and now this new topic has come up.

It is worth noticing your feelings, but not letting yourself get carried away too fast. How about sleeping on it and seeing how you feel after some time digesting this?

As I said above, she did say she loves you. How do you feel? Do you love her? Have your feelings taken a hit?

take care, pearl.

She said she doesn’t have romantic feelings for him just pity for him .For me yes she said she wants to build a life with me blah blah blah.I know my anger is writing this but at this point because she now knows it upset me , she can easily BS me to reverse this avalanche.For all I know this is some sort of triangulation stuff.Personally (but I won’t do it) I just want to tell her , you love me ? Say good bye to him in a polite way and move on.But I know too much now to know this will push her towards him and push me further away... .but deep down once my anger subsides , I may come to the conclusion my caring for this is receding ,maybe not.

Unfortunately she’s supposed to call me later so I got another round of this before bed otherwise I surely would sleep on it.Do I still love her,yes I do but I can feel it’s grip weakening lately.

Hi Shawnlam,

As hard as it is, maybe you should do a lot of listening (without judgement or expectation) when she speaks during the call. Don't be totally silent, but listen, if you can, as if you were one step removed from this.

She does love you. This may only be a bump in the road.

If I was you, rather than tear down the other guy, I'd offer a vision of what you could have together. You are competing. Just be you, the man she loves, more than the other guy. Still.

I have one ex that could show up and throw me a bit, would have appeal. But all in all, I could say I'd take a pass. I know she has BPD and is not so rational in all likelihood, nevertheless, let her decide what to do about this guy and let her feel free/safe enough to share it with you. You don't have to go along with what she wants, but at least you'll know what is going on and it won't go underground. That is where the long-term danger is. In a way, believe it or not, you are lucky you are talking about this! (And not having it pop up at an even later point.)

warmly, pearl.

That is very true ,she could have said nothing and months years down the line tada it pops up.If there is a bright side to this ,that’s definitely it so I’ll take that positivity and go with it for sure .Ill keep quiet during the call except to answer her questions simply because I still don’t know what to think .

Hey Shawnlam, I am reading this thread and I can sense a level of fear. It's something I have a lot in my own relationship with my spouse. We've know each other for more and 22 years, and have been together for at least 18 of those, than got married 2 years ago. The marriage brought with it a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainly can trigger fear. That's what I saw when I read your post. Fear can make us go off. If nothing else, for you too, the experience of sitting a bit with your own feelings and learning from them is a very valuable experience.

I would add the classic question. How is your self-care these days?

Sending good thoughts for your call.   

Brave

The disappointment over the holidays could have been cleared up in 2 weeks rather than 4 months with a different approach. Looking back, I think you can see that. She hurt your feelings and pushed back and pushed her away.

This is probably the same.

She is an emotional and impulsive being. If you push back, you are pushing her to the other guy.

Hopefully you can see that your reaction is driving her to pull back right now.

It's hard to check your emotions at the door, hard for anyone, but with a BPD partner you have to do that when the get off center.  Maybe you don't want to do that. That's one choice and logical.  But one choice that doesn't makes sense is to do what failed you last time and expect better results.

She told me on the call she is very poor at saying what she is thinking and that it came out probably the wrong way.I told her again that she did the right think but that right now I feel incredibly stupid and I don’t know what to say anymore .I told her I could have handled everything but when she said to me when I asked her , would you think about going back when or if he got better and she said maybe ,it made me feel very stupid and hurt.She the said I didn’t mean it that what ,that’s not what I meant when I said that and she understood why I’m hurt.We agreed to talk in person Wednesday night after we both see our therapists. I don’t know what to do anymore which is pretty obvious since I’m texting at 400am in my bed got maybe 1 hr sleep

Hi Shawnlam,

You have a good plan here. You have time. No need to get upset and push her away. Now you are gathering information, looking at your feelings, as braveSun astutely points out, looking at your own fears.

You are not stupid. You are not foolish. This is just a relationship issue and you both have choices. Let's use some cold, hard reason and logic here (on your side at least) if you can.

You got new information that impacts the relationship:  :check:

You can take a look at and understand your feelings and control/slow down your reactions: [up to you]

You will talk about it with your therapist this week, so will she:  :check:

You will get through this, and you will be okay.

No beating yourself up, okay man? I am sincerely asking you to not do this if at all possible. Total waste of time... .and you need your strength! 

with compassion, pearl.

I will do my best pearl ,I promise.Thank you for the words and for everyone’s input and help ,you have no idea how much it does mean to me ,sometimes I just have a hard time showing appreciation.

Ah, you are good fella! And you deserve so much love! I know these relationships are hard and mind-bending and majorly disappointing at times.

Let's keep working on keeping you strong and whole because these relationships are hard enough as it is!

You are not alone! You are doing your best! Like I say to myself, you are doing your best, but if you can, when you can, try to do better.  

   pearl.

p.s. get some sleep buddy! close those eyes and let yourself release the tensions of the day. slowly breath out the pain of the day. let it go. let it go. let it go. with each breath. let it go.

She just texted me saying ( because last night we left off saying we would meet Wednesday) and we left the call where I asked her what does she want with this and what was her expectations after telling me what she did yesterday.

HER TEXT:
I wanted to tell you because you deserve to know I’m not over the BS that happened(talking about her and her ex bad finish).I don’t want to move on without you.There was just no need to keep trying to figure out my struggle ?   End of text .

I answered ok thank you that makes sense  and helps me , talk to you Wednesday

Oh, I've read this twice now and I am not quite sure what she means. Can you translate a bit?

~pearl.

Well I had asked her what her intentions where when telling me about her therapy and the fact her therapist told her she seems stuck on her ex relationship.That this is still causing her issues moving forward in life now with me .So she told me that the reasons why she sometimes feels off or doesn’t know which way to operate in life is because of everything that happened to her and her ex .Fighting,him moving in and out of their house until one day she had enough and they split,sold the house and she ended up with debts etc etc.But at the same time she pities him because of all his issues and doesn’t want to tell him to get out of her life and never talk to her ,she just wants the best for him and to be happy .She then said he stopped smoking and now they have conversations they could never have before (whatever that means ). So I Obviously asked her the inevitabile question, would there be a chance she will go back together with him if he became normal .Her answer was not an100% no. Two conversations after I simply asked her what does she want from me ? And that’s when she texted the above .She said she wanted me to know the truth that she’s weird because she’s not over all the drama of her past relationship,and she says she wants to continue with me , not without me ,but she had to let me know why she sometimes acts weird .I think mostly her therapist opened her eyes to this one but now she has to deal with that truth . I hope that made sense .For me in my head the following questions come up :

1: is she slowly realizing she still loves this guy that hurt her so much ? Or does she already know?
2:even though she says she wants to be with me and start a new life ,am I the “in the meantime guy” to see is ex boyfriend gets better first
3: is she like many people with BPD where honestly she doesn’t really know what she wants anyways so weither it’s me or him it wouldn’t make a difference in the long run anyways?
4: do I keep risking my health ,sanity,heart to be with someone who is so emotionally unbalanced that frankly she shouldn’t even be in a relationship in the first place until she saves herself ?
5: is she just saying she loves me and wants me because her mom and friends like me and think I’m a good person that’s secure and loves her so she’s going with the flow but what she really misses is the ups and downs of her ex relationship? The ups and downs that kinda gave her permission in her own mind to act out and not feel bad because his actions justified her revenge actions ? And she doesn’t get this from me because I don’t get mad anymore or storm out of her life giving her the opportunity to be the bad girl once in awhile ? Something she misses or crave sor even needs to function to suppress her deregulated emotions ?

Is it possible that she means what she says?
She values her relationship with you and doesn't want to lose you. She has haunting and unfinished business with her ex. She is conflicted at some level and doesn't know what it all means yet. This is emotional (not logical) and messy right now. You said that she was discussing this with her therapist. That likely means she is confused, conflicted, unclear, stuck, etc.

Is it possible that how you and her handle things and how things go with the ex will be the primary deciding factor in where this ends up? Regardless of what she says?
If you and her go into the type of relationship you had at the beginning of the year, that this ultimately won't go well with you two. If he shows signs of his old ways, then things won't progress with the two of them. She's not running to him, she is just not closing the door... .and they are talking.


I doubt that this is what is drives her.


This is a heartbreaking messy development, no doubt. Things are certainly up-in-the-air. Her emotions and now yours.

I think the answer to your question is to try to come to grips with who she really is and make a decision on that. Your posts here portray two very different people. A person working to get her act together. A despicable, monster slut who is best described by Internet "vampire" sites.

Who is she really? Get that balanced perspective in your head - hard when things are emotional, but it will help.

How much do you invest in this? In general, when your partner is seeing a T to discuss a relationship, that tends to be destabilizing. T's often tell their clients that they are being reasonable and the partner is something you might want to think twice about. And ex boyfriends being in the communication queue are never good... .it creates an imbalance that most likely everyone will want to get settled sooner rather than later.

One thing I wouldn't do it get-tough on her, bully, pout, etc. You will only hurt your, the relationship, and make the other guy look good.

My suggestion would be to either try and get involved to help the guy.

Or, very nicely and with zero pressure, exit the scene in a way that you are attractive and  really likeable a poss the reality of her pending loss (you). That's a dice roll, but a good one.

Or just walk walk away and look for a more straight forward relationship. You are 11 months in and, except for 9-10 weeks, this has been a misadventure with pregnancies, and breakups, and now, ex-boyfriends.

May I ask , how would you suggest or coach me on exiting the scene in a zero pressure/ dramatic way ,or to your last point? I don’t believe I’m up for helping this other guy,life is short and we all have enough with our problems I can’t and won’t see myself playing DR Phil with her ex? I think I’ll take the coaching and suggestions on how to do as you said and apply them on Wednesday as heart breaking it will be to give up a woman I love this much .Thank you

Just to be clear, getting involved with the other guy to help is more about making it you and her working together to do whatever it is she wants to do to help. It's more about you working with her to resolve what she is trying to resolve. Most men would exit that scene in pretty short order (him). She may or my not be open to this.

Not selling this, just explaining.


Let's talk about this with members here.

What are her, the kids, her families favorite/most favorable experiences with you. Repeat that. Maybe you plan an trip to a water park, have a great family time, or something. Have a really upbeat time. Don't mention any of the issues.  Then just give her space (don't announce it - leave it all vague). If/when she contacts you tell her what a great time you had, ask her what she's thinking (don't engage it, just let her be heard) telling her you fully support her doing what she feels is the right thing to sort out her feelings (stay vague and don't make it sound like an ending). Just lay back. It's important that this feel really authentic and above all, not manipulative, pouting, quitting, etc.

Let her feel the best of you and then pull back as the most caring you can be.

See what happens.

Shawn

After reading through your thread and remembering some of the sleepless nights in my recent past I would suggest you decide not to decide at this point.  If you are not sleeping it is neigh on impossible to make good life choices.

I found this quote from a sleep researcher and it certainly explains some of my actions last year.  I had a week where I was managing two or three hours of sleep each night --my emotional state was shattered and my decision making was gravely impaired.  Having added Ambien and plenty of alcohol into the equation I was a wreck and acted accordingly... .  Things which should have been clear to me were not and I made some choices I lived to regret.

[During sleep deprecation] "The ability of the brain to tell what's important is compromised. It's as if suddenly everything is important." --Talma Hendler.

From what I understand you have entertained the idea of continuing your relationship with your ex.  This is a fine choice if you think it is right for you -however you had to know this was not going to be easy.  From what I have come to understand a relationship with someone suffering from BPD is a high risk venture --if it works it can be an incredible and magical experience, however this takes a lot of work and a good bit of luck.  Personality disorders are life long and akin to a 'world view' for the person afflicted.  Personality disorders can be managed -but they don't go away.

Whether or not this is a good life choice for you is going to be difficult to ascertain and only time will tell. 

From what I have read in your thread you have not invested enough time on this second go around to know yet.  Since you are distraught and not sleeping this might not be the right time to make a life choice. 

I am playing devil's advocate here because it is my understanding every time a relationship fails and there is yet another attempt of reconciliation the stakes get higher -the dysfunction more pronounced. 

Both parties are hurt in a break up and each subsequent break up makes a healthy relationship less likely.  In other words if you call it quits now and regret it the likelihood of a healthy relationship with her in the future goes down -a third reconciliation is more likely to fail than this second iteration.

My advice would be to go into Wednesday as an empty cup -let the conversation fill you. Don't have an agenda.  Listen to her and give yourself some time to figure out what is right for you.    You can end a relationship at any point -but it is a line in the sand which should only be crossed once.  A break up should never be a bid for power or a punishment. 

Wicker Man

This is what I meant... .  however it took me an entire page to say it... .

I spoke with my therapist today he suggested the following what do you guys/girls think ? He suggests to no longer rehash my feelings of what she said been there done that .He said write down three questions and only three questions that you want to ask her.Also write three comments about you (one being what you think of her ,not what you think of her about what she did ) actually write what you see positive in her.Also keep the other two comments about yourself purely not you trying to sell yourself .Ask her permission to say all the questions and comments then back off ,stop talking and listen to her and say no more unless she asks you something. What do you think? I’ve already written the questions and comments  is like to say.He said make sure your questions answer your doubts on this subject because if you do get the good answers your hoping this episode needs to be placed behind you and if you don’t then you will already have your answer to what I need to do.

I like your guy.

I think he is saying to get the most important facts straight (e.g., is she seeing him, dating him) and forget the rest. Which is good advice.

This will work for tangible questions, but probably not for intangible questions as you already know (are you still in love with him, is there any chance you will reconnect, do you want to spend your life with me, etc.).

My suggestion might still be to do this after spending some quality time.  The defense walls are already up on both sides... .it's tense. De-escalating would be good.

I like Wickerman's idea's. Don't shoot the gun. Lay low.

Anyway, that is for you to decide... .

What are the questions?

Yes -you have this well covered.   If you keep up a rumination cycle you will spiral into it and lose sight of the bigger picture.


This is good advice.  Eventually you will have to have a heart to heart and have these burning questions answered -but is there a reason for the urgency?  Putting an expiration date on this conversation adds weight to it and that is the last thing you need.  Think lightness.

In other words why would you go into your next meeting with her ready to end your relationship?  Is that necessary?  It strikes me both of you need time to process.

Take Skip's advice of 'Lay low' in other words be cool... .Take this from me -a 'coping model' who could not follow his own advice last May.  I now have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

There is no reason to make this next meeting a 'Go no Go'.  First and foremost you both need to figure out if you still enjoy each other's company --build a new foundation.  If you both are of the same mind the other guy thing may solve itself.

If I were you I would take a deep breath --No... .I mean literally every time you think about her take a deep breath.  You are likely fighting diffuse physiological arousal and deep breathing will help.  Figuratively you also need time to breath.



Wicker Man

I tend to agree with everything that has been said so far. I also see that from my own limited experience, these situations tends to wear on us in a way we don't suspect. They catch us off balance. It's way too easy to get carried away with looping negative thinking. Our brains can go to catastrophizing without us even noticing. Deep breathing is a good technique to slow down this automatic nervous system process. There are many things you can do to help yourself come back to a normal arousal state.

Planning a light weight activity with her than might be easier to reach because some of the loaded feelings might have less of a grip on you.

Generally speaking, I'd definitely amp up my own self-care for the duration of all of this period. Doing some good things for yourself. Sleep is number one. Eating nutritious meals. Deep breathing is great when the arousal comes on short notice. Exercising. Being in nature. Letting off the steam a bit. Once you have your own questions laid out, get off the high anxiety rolls as much as you can, than revisit the questions.

You have time Shawnlam. There is enough time to take good care of yourself now.

This very moment is important.
 


What are some activities you see would fit the bill for your self-care?

Brave

I’ll post the three questions and comments but already my questions are wrong so I’ll have to redo them.The therapist told me to ask the questions that will resolve your insecurity and when answered accept it and move on good or bad no open ended left to be figured out questions because it will never end and you will never stop the hampster upstairs . Also she texted me at lunch telling me she’s sorry and never wanted to jeapordize us by being honest although she said she knows I appreciate the honesty.She just said no matter what happens she wanted me to know this and she feels bad.I told her it’s ok I understand and you did the right thing it just took me off guard I’m ok .She said she wanted me to understand why she still feels and acts hurt from her past.Ill try copying and pasting my theee questions and comments .Also she told me Wednesday was best because it’s her time without the kids that we can have for us and that we will be emotionally better in three days and also she will have answers no questions for me .Not sure if that made sense ,technically we called the meeting before I talked on here otherwise I’d probably have waited although my mindframe is to get this over with and hers to.If she still has doubts about her ex being what she wants I’m gonna bail for sure just not in a$&hole form ,in a hug and kiss I will miss you and love you way .


Question 1: like you said you are not over the BS that happened I understand that now. When you say you are not over this does it mean : In  a unfinished business way where you need to close that door properly by talking to him ,house stuff,in a polite kind  happy ending fashion  ? etc.OR unfinished business ,you still have feelings for him and he has them for you and you have a slight (what if he gets better chance ) in your mind that’s unresolved and concerning you or you are unsure?

Question 2: if you do manage to close the door with xxxx in a sense the past is the past and the issues at hand are handled , by keeping in touch and  you see he gets better ,since you loved him the most ,even if you love me your doubts and mind will not be on our life but more the what if? Do you agree?

Question 3: You are in love with me and want to continue with me ,so I ask in what fashion? In a let’s start our lives now together because we are in love and want to be together as a couple (that’s also if and when you can or will get through this hurdle with your past depending on the answers for questions 1&2) . OR  you want me in your life and even if you love me , you see me more as friend and someone you can trust and rely and respects you as you’ve told me,but not as a family /partner ? OR you are unsure right now ?

Three comments /statements about me and what I see for me with you and how I see myself so this isn’t me trying to sell myself to you.

1: over time I’ve come to respect myself more and more because as I meet more and more people I realize I’m not a bad person.I have value ,nothing special but something to offer someone who wants it and I think I’m worth someone who wants me for my good and bad traits ,my looks good and bad,and my habits good and bad.
2:When it comes to you ,it’s similar to your comment on your ex except in present time.I won’t say I loved you the most ,I will say that I love you the most ,more than any woman I’ve had in my life .When I look at you and your family of three, I see a spot I’d like to fill for the long term without doubts but sadly that’s not only my choice.
3: I want you to know that although I appear many times as weak emotionally because I show you a lot on how much you mean to me ,don’t be fooled into thinking my compassion is weakness.I show you this side because I love you,and I try to show this to you without the neediness part because I’m looking for and see my equal in you ,it’s a form of respect .BUT I’ve been through and seen things in my life as fcccxed up as it was ,that I hope never ever you or your boys ever have to see and if I’m still in your life then  I’ll do everything to prevent them from seeing those things.But with that said here I am aren’t I?  ,still standing ,working,healthy,and capable of love even still after all that.What this means ,it means I’m stronger than you might give me credit for I don’t know, I can take massive amounts of pain and loss I’ve had to do it before don’t let my tears fool you.So nows the time to let me have the truth because we can’t keep doing this .If what you have to say may break my heart then so be it I will live and I will take it ,my body is full of scars heart and all,hell you’ve seen most of them yourself I just hide the scars on my heart better.

That’s all

I think simple is best... .


Examples:

1. Has he asked you to get back together? If yes, what did you say in response?

2. How many times have you seen each other? Where did you go? Sexual?

3. How did you describe your feelings about him and about me to your therapist?


Examples:

1. When I look at you and your family of three, I see a spot I’d like to fill for the long term without doubts but sadly that’s not only my choice.

2. Love and respect are the two things I value most in a relationship. Sometimes I fall short. I know my partner will too. It's important to me that in a relationships we are reaching to be better at this, together.

3. I struggle with the baby and how such an important thing came at a time when you and I were struggling to connect.

Something I am working on in therapy is to stop communicating in a codependent and enabling manner... . So I am going to try to communicate in a more direct manner --here goes:

In my opinion going into your next meeting with a big head of steam will all but ensure dissolution of your relationship.

Presuming she suffers from BPD a lot patients and understanding will be required from you as you move forward in your relationship.  This is only the beginning and ultimately a small bump in the road.  Try to see it as such.

Best of luck with this -I am sorry you are in so much pain.


Wicker Man

Skip wicker thanks for the input .On the question thing I’ll be honest you’d be surprised to know I don’t really care if they saw each other lately (she said totally plutonic ).My main concern is going forward me and my therapist have come to the conclusion,trying to figure out what’s done is not a good thing for my busy bee mind.Instead if I go simple would these work.

1: do you still have feelings for him  ( I guess any answer of  yes /no/maybe would be enough for me )

2: by keeping him in your life ,is it to see if something comes back emotionally? ( I guess yes no maybe would also be enough )

3: Obviously depending on answers 1&2. 3: am I what you are looking for as a long term type of person you want .


For comments I have to keep them exclusively about me and my character type without bringing in examples of “us” .I asked why to the therapist he said : it’s to bring out something she may be overlooking on you good or bad .She may hear the comments and it will help her to frame her on perception of you .Saying something like you are worth being appreciated for who you are may tell someone In an emotional state that her tagging you along if that’s what she’s doing is wrong to herself .By doing it this way you’ve said nothing to her she came up with it by herself just by hearing you comment on yourself .He has a strange way of getting people to pull data out of their mind through speaking on a completely different topic.He has experience with complex b’s and his not so much reverse psychology but unique psychology has its effects.Same goes with telling her it’s ok to tell you the worst news simply by telling her about you being strong charactered enough to be able to hear it

Oh and Sorry wicker I forgot : If let’s say I simplified my questions to what’s written in above post and she answered yes to having feelings for him or yes she wants to keep him in her life to see if he changes , those answers would end the relationship for me.Two ways this can be seen as I had this talk with my therapist  1: weak and running away driving her into his arms but I’m the longer  run you getting out of the toxic relationship even if it hurts for months years  2: you are the stronger one emotionally and pulling away allows her to go back to him which is she answered yes above would be what she wants .All in all water seeks its own level so two broken people would unite and the stronger one walks away with more knowledge but heartbreak that will heal and a better shield for the future .As I look at it ,seeing it as number 2 obviously has the more appealing outlook

Hi Shawnlam, 

Just a quick pop in to say I am so impressed with the work you are doing here. I am grateful that you, and those assisting on the thread, are sharing this process with us. It is a privilege to get to learn from your experiences and for us all to have a chance to learn more about better communication!

I wish you all the best this week!   

take care, pearl.

I should think, since we find ourselves having this conversation on the 'Bettering a Relationship board', a third alternative outcome should be considered.

3. The two of you find a way to begin a healthy relationship.

This would be the hard road with no instant resolution. 

From my limited experience the fact your girlfriend was honest and up front with you about this other guy speaks volumes.  It seems it can be very difficult for someone suffering from BPD to be honest about relationship issues. 

Mine had at least two ex boyfriends in her orbit during my tenure and believe it or not this was not an issue of me --she had enormous shame about it.

I looked at our relationship as a long game.  I attributed this continued communication with her ex boyfriends as a bad habit and one which could be curbed.   I felt by being supportive she would eventually let them go.

Our relationship didn't work out -but it was not over this issue. 


Wicker Man

"Feeling" questions my not be real helpful when things are conflicted... .

1. Does she know the answer... .I think probably not.

2. Is it a reliable answer - this all sounds impulsive.

3. Could she look you in the eye and give you the bad news... .that's a tall order for anyone.

Where as if you ask them if they have talked about possibly reconciling... .it's tangible and you can extrapolate the answer.

In the broader picture, I'm with wickerman when he says it probably not a good time to try to "close the deal". There is woundedness going into the conversation last week and there is woundedness from the conversation... .recovering from that might be the best first step.

Well I received a storm of information in this fashion I’ll comment what’s going on in my mind after on a second post:

So she explained to me she never got closure from the nightmare of a relationship she had with him.She said she still has feelings for him but no where near the feelings she has for me.She said her feelings were more I hope you do well take care of yourself VS with me it’s I love you .She said there is something about his personality that she has a hard time letting go because he’s so broken ,damaged and sad as a human being it’s pitiful in ways but draws her attention. She said if she would have been single this past year who knows if she would have folded to his crap again.Again she said they can’t ever reconnect again like they had ,and purely it’s more ( I hope you do better and grow like she has grown ) connection .
She said she will never let him control her life now or in the future and she hasn’t changed want she wants for her and her kids .All in all she just wanted me to know all this it may explain why things have been ruff with us in the past , and a little bit tuff now but better .She thought she would never be able to have a normal relationship with anyone after him (not because it’s me), because you has a hard time trusting men because of what happened and that it explains her today. Then 24 hrs later she said please keep this stuff secret and also she said she feels annoyed with herself now .

Comments from me to follow

Ok my comments or feelings :

1: exhausted , every time things go well tada it explodes

2: not sure this is the only issue ,she was doing well and this happened but in the past it was other stuff.I believe every new deregulated emotional event requires and explanation this time it seems to be this as the cause (but I’m not a psychiatrist so I don’t know)

3: when she’s in a good high life’s perfect and marriage , life is the future ,when she’s down life’s garbage she hates herself and goes back to things that went wrong to blame for present feelings .

4: exhausted  , I’m so tired even with my life going on the side keeping me busy , it’s becomes so very tiring

5: unfortunately I still am in love with her ,was hoping this would subside when these events happen but sadly my love maintains its intensity regardless.

6: I don’t care much about her ex ,I don’t see him as a threat even though I feel foolish sometimes being in the loop like a bad B movie teen drama .Ive always prided myself on being little to no drama ,even my parents told me I hated drama as a child and was a fair time a loner just because of this

7: my personal belief is she is trama bonded to this person .Together they were a whirlwind of emotion like that cartoon Tasmanian devil whirlwind both felt comfortable yet chaotic with that lifestyle and now she feels empty and unloved (even though she’s receiving normal love now ) it’s probably boring and unsatisfactory for her.

8: she has her own knight in shining armor savior behavior going on with him.Because her life is so f... .Ed up and her self image/worth/esteem is low to none so she feels good about herself when surrounded by worse and feels even better when helping him (about herself not really about him).She often told me I have nothing to fix so she has trouble bonding with me .

9:I’m so very tired ,tired tired tired.

How do you feel about the way your reacted and handled this situation?

Hi Shawnlam,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think you are right, she may feel more comfortable with him in a way because he is either "as messed up as" or more than her.

You mention in many of the items on this list you being exhausted. What do you typically do to recharge yourself? What can you do in the next few days to bring some happiness, laughter, or fun, and maybe a little distance from this, into your life?

wishing you peace, pearl.

Actually I have yet to react to be honest , I did it on purpose not to while my emotions are high.I told her “ hey baby I’m sorry you are going through this it’s tuff, I’m here if you need me”.I got a heart back so I’ve boughtbtime until tomorrow when we meet in person so I’m good for now .

Pearl: it’s not a physical tired but a mental one and because it’s a work week it’s harder for me to unwind from this most of my activities to power down are up north related or motorcycling (raining this week). And I refuse to go back to booze so working out does some good

Also her therapist has brought it to her attention that all she talks about is the harm he’s done to her and she won’t let go ,so where this is going I have no idea .She says she wants to meet or talk to him to get closure and move on amicably and tell him she’s in love with me .I guess in a way I now understand triangulation , and it’s effects on the mind.Im sure she didn’t do this consciously but she did so it’s happening.Ill have to read more on this to understand what she expects from me on this ? I know the other guy is probably just extatic he’s back in communication with her ,me not sure what’s my end role here in her eyes but it’s wearing me thin and to skips many points I’m not the most patient guy out there I’m still surprised I haven’t blown this up yet.In the success stories both on this site and others most successful couples where BPD is involved is because of the persistence of just being there for them ends up building trust but at a trickle effect .(takes forever in the don’t leave her just be there ).

Hey Shawnlam,

Working out sounds great!  

Are you thinking of doing the gentlemanly exit that Skip suggested as a possible option (hope I am not mischaracterizing that) as opposed to the sudden, emotion fueled break up tomorrow?

Or more listening?

What is the plan for the meet up tomorrow?

~pearl.

All in all it does sound like she loves you and may be trying to clear the decks to be ready for a future with you.

I know you were already feeling ambivalent.

If she does manage to clear the decks and is free... .would you want her? I know you love her.

It is possible this is legitimately just one last round of housecleaning the past out of the relationship to be able to start free and clear?

~pearl.

One last point! I do not have BPD or other mental health issues, but I have had two men pulling on me at once and I have needed to find closure to be able to move forward so... .Some tips based on that.

Let her have the closure. Let her describe the parameters of it. It may not come all at once, but the bulk of it can. You can't control it. Feelings of love are strong. Hopefully if she is feeling those things for him, for her sake and yours, the feelings will die. They don't die sometimes because relationships end before the feelings do. And then you get stuck with feelings and no person. Maybe she did not process the end of the relationship. Her therapist is on this, you don't have to be. You can support. Hopefully you can be kept in the loop. Don't let this go underground or it could come back later.

She does seem to love you. A lot. Keep making being with you appealing if you want her. Be patient to the best of your abilities. You do not have to wait forever. There are gentlemanly ways to step back, let her decide, and come to you. This might be a healthy exercise for her. Make it her choice, instead of you forcing it.

~pearl.

Definitely stay out of the bottle at this point in your life. Good for you for not drinking.

I completely agree with Pearl when she said be patient and give her space. 

It brings to mind an evening when one of Dream Come True's ex lovers called on the phone.  I could tell by the look on her face who was on the line.  I lit two cigarettes gave one to her, squeezed her arm and left the room so she could talk to him.  When she came out of the room she said 'I can't believe how much you love me'.   In my mind there had been no other way to handle the situation -so I took the high road.  The low road (fire fight) would have, in my estimation pushed her towards the other guy.

From what I am reading you care for this woman, but are frustrated and confused.  If you are able --give yourself the emotional space and time to figure out what your wants and needs might be in this relationship. 

This is far easier said than done.  For me there was an element of 'chase instinct' with Dream Come True -when she pushed me away I chased her. 

I didn't have the presence of mind while in the relationship to take a breath and observe whether it was right for me or not.  As a point of fact I was never granted this luxury.  Take your time, don't make any rash decisions.  Be very proud of yourself in the way you have handled the last few days -I have a feeling I knew precisely what you are going through.

To give you an idea of my train wreck week -She was on a job, sick (literally coughing blood), seeing someone else, had ghosted me.  I nearly flew from LA to NingBo China in a panic... .  So honestly Shawn as hard as this seems -you are doing great! 


Wicker Man

You didn't go off on her.    That's good. You sought support. Even better. Big step forward.

You did react. A lot. Read your posts here. You immediate response was to catastrophize the situation (jumping to conclusions), start talking about "these people" (labeling , overgeneralization), say that she had no business being in a relationship (personalization and blame), and start to push away (she saw that) and plan an exit (all-or-nothing thinking).

You can read about these here (please   )
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

Do you see that?

Touch you with the wrong feather and you go off.

To stay in a relationship / this relationship, you will need a tad bit more self awareness.  I've been saying this to you for weeks, and I will let it go if we can't get some traction on it soon  

You have a significant role in the relationship conflict. Our number one rule on bettering it that "you can't make it better until you stop making it worse." You have a natural inclination to bring it on.  Please don't react to that as an insult - react to it as an opportunity - a big opportunity.

Just a early warning (before it is too late). What brings most BPD relationships down is trust. The BPD person has a huge trust trigger (bigger than your vulnerability trigger) and every time you touch it, it move closer to the engaging the firing pin.  Your reaction to her is often fight/flight. She has told you this doesn't sit well. She saw the flight reaction here (you didn't cover it). Listen to her. Once the trigger has pulled, there is no going back, no do-overs.

Make sense?

*mod*

This thread has reached it's size limit and has now been locked.  The topic discussion continues in a new thread HERE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327998.msg12990490#msg12990490)