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My uBPDw has a habit of telling the chilren, S14 and D11 to get or be ready to go somewhere at a  certain time.  If they ask her where they are going, her response is, ‘it is none of your business’ 99% of the time.  This includes simple trips to the library or grocery store. This behavior seems unnecessary at best and rude/controlling/borderline abusive at worst.  I know it frustrates the children as they are simply curious about where they are going.  She also acts the same towards me.  Today she told the kids to be ready to go at a certain time and would not tell them where she was taking them.  She told me this am that she intends to take them to a therapist and I assume that is her plan for the afternoon.  When I asked her where she was taking thrm, her response was, ‘none of your beeswax’.  I told the kids that if they did not want to go, they did not have to.  They chose to go, which is perfectly ok with me. I would just like to know where they are at, especially under the circumstances.   I don’t know how to effectively deal with this behavior.  I know there is nothing I csn do to change her aside from involving authorities which seems a bit excessive at this point.  I would never refuse to tell her where I was going with our kids and expect that she would do the same. 

Woodchuck

Hi Woodchuck.

pwBPD are often in this desperate struggle to control their environment and everything in it. It's like a normal response to feeling out of control but on steroids. I think you did a good job with your kids to let them know they don't have to go if they don't want to. She is well into parallel parenting, so consider that when you choose to tell her when you take the kids somewhere or do something with them.

At some point while I was still living with my xw, I used to tell her "I am taking the boys to ___" or "I was thinking of doing ___ with the kids today." She did not do the same for me, not much if ever. But she felt free to criticize or direct or veto my plans with the kids, and felt justified in doing it. After a time, I simply stopped telling her where or what I was doing, just when. It pissed her off, but I kept that boundary because it took way more energy to justify whatever it was I planned to do with them and know that I would never reach agreement with her on any of it than it did to keep the boundary.

And you know how to get your kids to be empowered to choose whether or not they want to go unless they know where they are going? Lead by example. If she does this behavior to you, hold your boundary on respectful communication (because directing and bossing people around is not very respectful). You can validate, like "I can see how important it is for you to organize this, but I am not willing to go with you if you will not explain where we are going. It makes me feel angry [or disrespected]. I am going to take care of my needs right now, but I'd be happy to talk about this with you in 30 minutes." Then leave, and return in 30 minutes and try again. If it involves you and the kids, leave with them and return in 30 minutes. She needs to understand that you have a boundary around this type of behavior. Your job is to try to validate whatever the feeling is that is behind it (that she is running from v. expressing). That' s a hard job. Sometimes, you just give it your best shot.

Is this something that you can try? Or float an idea of another way to express what sounds like a boundary wanting to come out? Your last statement "I would never refuse to tell her ... ." That statement holds something internal within you, something kind of central to who you are, that doesn't set right with what's going on - that's your boundary.

takingandsending-
She would have no problem leaving me behind if I did not want to do what she was planning on doing whether she communicated what she was planning or not.  I do try to validate her feelings and you are right, it is very difficult at times.  I have realized that I need to step back and separate the feeling that she is communicating from the facts and validate that.  That has seemed to increase her rage more than anything.  I have not stopped trying to practice that though as I believe it is a healthier way to go than JADEing.  I understand that my boundary is not refusing to tell her where I am taking the kids but to me that seems like it should be a standard boundary for parents and I don't know how to deal with it not being a boundary for both.  Additionally, I don't know how to encourage the kids to respond to the behavior when I am not around.  They can't just tell her no, they aren't going unless she tells them where. 

Woodchuck

If your uBPDw is making appointments with a T without your knowledge, you might want to quietly ask a L, or research what your rights are as a parent.  That is, do you have right to (1) engage and share in the T sessions involving minors, (2) get updated reports from the T, etc.   Of course, every state is different, but it’s worth looking into your parental rights. What you want to try an avoid is the uBPDw controlling the information flow.   Too, BPD like to shop around for a T that will support their jaded viewpoint and not the interest of the children. You might want to think down the road a bit.  ( I assume she is paying for the T.)

DivDad-
That is some great advice.  I fully expect her to shop for a therapist that will see things her way.  With my children, S14 and D11, they are old enough to communicate effectively with a therapist and I believe that any therapist worth their salt will see what is going on.  With that mindset, I am not trying to get overly involved.  I believe that she is digging herself a hole that she will probably regret but hopefully lead to her recognizing that she needs help.  I will definitely look into what my rights are as far as the therapist goes.  My S14 told me the other day that he felt that his mom was mentally unstable.  I did not validate or invalidate his statement.  I asked him why he thought that.  He thought for a minute and then responded that maybe she wasn't mentally unstable but at least emotionally unstable.  I again asked him why he felt that way and he responded that her constant changing emotions was part of it.  How she can go from 'happy' to angry and stay angry.  I fully believe that he will tell the therapist how he really feels and I know he has a lot of frustration with his mom.  I don't try to feed his frustration but try to help him look at what he can do differently.  I don't want him to resent her.  I would much rather the kids both had a loving and close relationship with both their parents.  I am not sure if she is paying of the T or if she is going through insurance.  She has told me almost nothing about what her plans are.  The only thing that she has done is sent me links to four different therapists that she claims are 'highly recommended' but she will not tell me by who.  Go figured.

Woodchuck

Seems like you have a pretty good relationship with your children and a good family foundation. Kudos.

My advice comes from 15 years of learning the hard way why my uexBPDw had an interest in our sons T sessions.  In the beginning, I went through a number of mutually agreed upon T’s (and later court appointed T and court appointed parent coordinators). In every case, my uexBPDw had her own agenda (as to why she wanted T for our sons) and it had very little to do with their emotional well being.


In every case, she attending a few sessions and when she realized that the T wasn’t advancing her agenda, she stopped attending; and then found fault with the T and wanted a new one. This went on for two years.

There IS an agenda and it will eventually surface.

It seems your S14 is getting it. That's great news. Without being an alarmist, I would focus a bit on your D11 and ensure that you have a say in the T choice. 
Currently, you don’t know how the T sessions are structured.  Do the sessions with the T involve just the children (both together or separately?), or is the uBPDw in most of the session with your children?   Who goes in the session and who stays out in the lobby?  Remember, BPD are very convincing people.

Since you received a list of 4 possible T’s from your uBPDw, that might be your opening to get a bit more involved in choosing and meeting with the T to find out how the sessions will be structured, etc.

In my case, we both initially meet with the T and then the T only saw my sons and called in the parents as needed.  As time went on, it was evident that my uexBPDw was going through a number of T because her agenda(s) werent' being meet.  It finally got to the point, on the advice of one of the T, that when meeting with the next new T, agree that the uexBPDw would spend time alone with the T so she can give her perspective on things and afterwards, I would spend some time with the T alone.  It reduced some of the drama. I know it sounds crazy as to why both parents can’t discuss the needs of the children in a joint session, but my uexBPDw would dominate the joint sessions and I didn’t have the opportunity to talk honestly about the family dynamics and the uBPD situation. 

Later, when my sons were about the same age as your children, we had a court appointed parent coordinator, who after two “family sessions” (without any prompting from me) requested separate parent sessions along with separate sessions for my sons. The PC got it. Realizing that your family situation might be different, I’m just throwing out these things and the notion not to underestimate why a BPD wants to take the children to T.

Woodchuck reading your description sends chills down my spine.

My husband hears "it is none of your beeswax" all the time from his 11 yr old twin boys. A phrase that their BPDmom has taught them. And it is used in exactly the same way. My husband obviously does not live with his kids and whenever he talks to them on the phone or skype and asks what fun plans they have or what they did over the weekend /holiday etc he gets that answer from them.
As it was said here, it is a sign of control. She likes to control her environment and unfortunately the kids were young enough to follow her prompts that no information should be shared with Dad. (and they literally told him that mom said they are not allowed to share that with him)

It is very good advice that was given to you to make sure that you are involved in therapy. My husbands Ex BPDw did not tell him that she found a T for the kids and only shared it with him 3 months into therapy when she had told the therapist all kinds of lies and assured that the therapist believed her stories. When my husband finally did get to talk to the T she yelled at him and told him that he is doing everything wrong and has no clue about his kids needs and wants. The kids have had this T for 2 years now and you can imagine what damage it has done.
I am glad to hear your kids are older so they might be more resistant to the damage such a T could do to them.

This too was my concern.  You can expect her to have been counselor/therapist shopping.  She is unlikely to take them to an experienced, perceptive and unbiased therapist.  More than likely it would be someone she feels she can influence or even control.  Otherwise, at the first instance she disagrees she'll go shopping for another more gullible.

A suggestion is for a list of multiple therapists to be gathered, ones respected as very experienced by their peers, then select from that vetted list.  If you build the list and ex chooses from among them, the results ought to be good.  Once the kids start with a T, it may be hard to get the court to support a change if it turns out to be an unhelpful T, court is usually reluctant to change things midstream.

DivDad-
Thank you for sharing all of your experiences.  It really helps me see how things may progress.  I am fully anticipating that she will shop for a therapist that meets her agenda.  That is what she did for marriage counseling.  The good that I can see in that is that I can document the shopping which demonstrates/validates what she is doing when/if lawyers and courts get involved.  Fortunately, my son is not afraid to speak his mind in front of his mom and I don't expect that to change when he is talking with a therapist.  If the kids were younger or were afraid to speak up and speak their truth, I would feel like I need to get more involved.  As far as selecting a therapist, she sent me info on four therapists and told me that they were all highly recommended but refuses to say who highly recommends them.  She also told me that she told the children that they could choose the therapist that they want.  I have no idea how she is planning on going about that.  I did do a bit of looking into the confidentiality of records for adolescents.  The confidentiality is not as ironclad as it is for adults.  The therapist apparently has the ultimate say in whether they will release the records or not.  So far there is no court involved.  If/when a court does get involved, expect her to further show her true colors and challenge authorities and the law.  In the end, she will do nothing but hurt herself if she continues down the path she is on.

Woodchuck

Woodchuck, you said, “The good that I can see in that is that I can document the shopping which demonstrates/validates what she is doing when/if lawyers and courts get involved.”

This is not a good thing.  By the fact the uBPDw sent you a list of T, a case could be made that you were “invited” to get involved but choose not to do so.  A good L could argue this.   

I still sense that you still want to take a passive and wait-and-see stance on your uBPDw unilaterally picking a T.  At least push back a little and ask the uBPDw that both of you need to sit down and agree on the T.  Whatever response that comes back, should be garnered via texts or emails. You have to show via text or emails (not verbally) that you attempted to get involved in the process of selecting a T and it was ignored or refused.   If it’s not documented via messages…then it’s just a “she said, you said” issue and the nonBPD usually loses.
What you are seeking is a “it’s none of your beeswax” statement.  A L can’t dispute that response.

ForeverDad is correct in that if things go sideways with your children attending T sessions over months or years, the court might be reluctant to change T.  Too, the T (only hearing one side of the family dynamics) might side with the BPD in court because that’s all the T knows.

I have been in your shoes.  Passively thinking that documenting things (i.e. the shopping around for a T or other things that impacted my sons) would eventually be ironed out in court. That is to say, righteousness wins out. But sometimes that is not the case.   I wish I would have taken a more aggressive stance and rocked the boat on some things because my “wishful thinking” that righteousness would win out, had a long-term impact on my son’s emotional well being.  It’s something I regretted.

Soundofmusicgirl hit the nail when she said it's all about control.  An understatement to be sure.  You have to counter with some control over who your children sees in T.  You are the parent too. It's a big deal and shouldn't be decided unilaterally.  Again, if you don't want to go that route, at least document the uBPDw refusal to get you involved. It will be beneficial down the road.

Too, at some point your S14 might share with you if and when he saw a T.  Naturally, don’t prod as to what and who discussed what, etc., but you might be able to discern and get a glimpse on the structure of the sessions etc.

See if you can do some on-line research, talk with your kids Pediatrician, the kids school counselor/psychologist, come here and get suggestions for interviewing the 4 Therapists she has suggested, you never know you might actually like one of them.  

If you can agree on one of them and she decides she doesn't want to agree... .that she wants to continue the conflict and drama and go with someone else fine, she will look pretty silly in a courtroom trying to explain why she didn't agree to a Therapist she recommended.

If you don't like any of them document for yourself (and possibly court) the reasons why you object create your own selection and ask her to choose.

I agree with the others here be cautious some here have had the therapist actively work against them.  In the case of my SO it was different. My SO was awarded Medical/Dental/Education decision making the court awarded his uBPDxw Gynecological, Vision and Therapy decision making in an effort to make things appear fair.  And like you said I think she got Therapy because the Judge assumed that any Therapist would recognize the problem.

Their daughters began therapy I don't know if their Therapist recognized mom's issues or not but what we did see was an inability to maintain boundaries with their mom.  Mom actually crashed her daughter's therapy sessions and made it her therapy session.  The Therapist I'm sure was a nice woman but was totally unprepared to manage a BPD boundary busting mother. Mom bullied and steamrolled her.

Sadly it took a crisis, my SO's younger D13(at the time) making suicidal comments at school, going inpatient, being diagnosed with PTSD before a new and effective Therapist came on the scene.  

Panda39

DivDad-
This is part of the conversation that transpired this afternoon.  It is all via text.  That is really what I was referring to regarding documenting.  There was other conversation about the list that she sent me yesterday but it was basically of the same nature.  The below conversation is just a small taste of the documented (text message or email) conversations that we have.  The fortunate thing for me is she prefers to communicate electronically so there is very little he said/she said.  I apologize in advance for some of the language in the conversation.  I did a direct copy and paste of the conversation.  I am very certain it is all about control as that is what it has always been about.  I guess I am comfortable taking a more passive route as she has made it very well known to several third party individuals what she is like and they are all very concerned.  This is not just based off me talking with them but based on their direct interaction with her.  I expect (though I could be wrong) that things will go much the same way with any therapist.


Me:
     
   I really think that we should sit down together and choose a therapist to start with and go from there.   We can get the kids feedback on what they think after they meet with whoever we choose and go from there.  I do not believe that it is or should be their responsibility to choose.  
Wife:
   Fine
Me:
   So how would you like to go about it.  I would like to know how you came about picking the 4 that you did.  
Wife:
   I am NOT going to answer that.
Me:
   I don’t understand why that is a secret
Wife:
   Just pick whoever you want.
   Or get your own recommendations.
Me:
   That is not how I believe this should be handled.  We are both their parents and should work on it together.  I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from.  
Wife:
   I could care less how you think it should be handled.
Me:
   ?
Wife:
   I could care less how you think it should be handled.
Me:
   Why?
Wife:
   Did you not hear me say I want a divorce?   Did you not hear me say you make my life miserable and I am happy when I do not have to be around you?
Me:
   Yes I completely understand that is how you feel.   I also understand that we have two kids that we need to try to work together on with how they are taken care of etc.  
Wife:
   So pick a God damn thearapist and leave me alone!
Me:
   It should not be all you or all me.   It should be done together.  
   You don’t agree?
Wife:
   Pick a God damn thearapist and leave me alone!
Me:
   I am not going to do things that way.  I don’t believe that is right.   I believe that we should both be involved in decisions like that.  
   You are not willing to work together on this?
Wife:
   Pick a God damn thearapist and leave me alone!
Me:
   That doesn’t answer the question.  I already told you that I do not believe it is right for one parent to pick a therapist.  
   What do you feel needs to happen for us to work together on this?
Wife:
   I gave you choices make a God damn selection and quit being an ass!
Me:
   I am sorry you feel like I am being an ass.   I am doing my best to try to communicate and work with you on things that I believe should be joint decisions.   I believe that we both need to be comfortable with who is chosen.  
Wife:
   I do not cae what you think!
   Conversation over!
Me:
   I understand you don’t care what I think but I know you care about the kids just as much as I do and have their best interest in mind just as much as I do and with that, I believe that it is important for us to sit down and discuss the issue and make a joint decision.  
   So you are not willing to discuss it at all?

Woodchuck

First, this is typical BPD communication.  Nothing new there.  We have all been there.


It’s also typical of the BPD saying two different things in the same communication.  That is, “Just pick whoever you want.  Or get your own recommendations” and “I gave you choices make a gd selection…”

Mixed messages.  From the string of messages, I don’t think this is a battle you want to plant your flag.   Maybe just research the four T’s, pick the one you think is best… and text the BPD your choice.  And see where it goes. There will be more important battles. 

DivDad makes a good point that this is typical example of a circular argument that many people with BPD engage in.

Many of us had to learn new communication and relationship skills in order to move things forward with someone who can't. These skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

For example:


Then tell her which one you picked. Full stop. She doesn't do well with a lot of nuanced disagreement so focus on what is actionable. Thankfully, you are able to regulate your emotions which makes it easier to problem solve. She is handicapped on that front. You will need to pull most of the weight when it comes to solutions because she is more susceptible to negativity, even when it's to her benefit to be otherwise.

Then you tell her who you picked:


No need to discuss whether or not the kids get to choose. You know they don't, and bringing it up just gives her an opportunity to sabotage the next step.

It helps you to find something in her efforts that you admire so that she feels validated -- she is less likely to fight you when she is being acknowledged for something positive.

Altho, of course, no guarantees... .validation is simply a more effective way to communicate.


This aspect of parenting is likely to change the most for you. Yes, you are both parents. No, you do not have the same problem-solving capacities. Since she is not likely to recognize that, you will have to use communication and relationship skills that essentially do the work for two people.

It gets more intuitive with more practice.

Understanding why she thinks the way she does from won't come from her. It will come from understanding what BPD is and how intense emotions and cognitive distortions impair her capacity to cooperate.

Also... .has she already contacted a lawyer? Offering 4 therapists and asking you to choose one sounds like a strategy... .

I could be wrong. It's also the same advice my L gave me when I was preparing to exit my marriage. L said it was much easier to get my son into therapy during the marriage, and to try to get ex on board before leaving, not after.

Third-party professionals can be the most powerful in our cases. It's important that you are proactive so that this doesn't turn around to bite you.

I found that giving my ex choices triggered her.  For example, at one exchange I mentioned an upcoming exchange problem.  I think it was that a holiday and an exchange were almost side-by-side and we'd be at the exchange twice in just a matter of hours.  I had a brainstorm, offer her two favorable options, more favorable to her than what she was rolling around in her head.  Ouch, she replied, "Then I just won't bring him!"  It eventually worked out but I've always remembered that she can trigger/object just because I suggested something logical.  My common sense logic usually doesn't win over her emotional perceptions and triggers.

For that reason I like LnL's approach.  Do your research and tell ex which one you picked.  Yes, you have your list of reasons but if you make it clear This Is The One then it might very well work, um, even if not at first.

Forever Dad/livednlearned-
Thank you for the input.  I took your advice and gave her a name after doing some research and her response was 'fine'.  Then she told me that we need to figure out if we need to get a referral from our dr or not.  I asked if she was going to take care of that and she responded, 'sure'.  That is kind of where things are at.  I am kind of expecting that she will not follow through with the counseling at all.  I think she thought I would fight it and the fact that I am not takes all the 'fun' and control out of for her so she won't pursue it.  If that is what actually happens, I need to decide what the best way forward is. 

WC

Keep documentation on all the these conversations about therapy.  If she doesn't follow through in a reasonable amount of time then follow up with her (via email) and keep documenting until she either does it or you end up having to do it.

Your quote above is an actual strategy that my SO uses with his ex.  If she wants something that will not hurt D17 (D21 makes her own decisions and is NC with mom) he will let her run with it... .only she usually doesn't or it starts and peters out, because as you say there is no drama, not negative interaction... .no attention, it's no fun.

According to uBPDmom D14 (at the time) REALLY wanted dance classes (this may or may not have been true, but she had not before or after this shown an interest in dance class).  The implication was dad would pay for it (looking for conflict here) and that dad would get her there and back (she doesn't drive/looking for conflict here too).  His response, great you will need to pay for it and get her there and back but I have no objection to dance class... .Class never happened, there was no conflict and D14 never complained about not going.

More recently uBPDmom went to a specialist Doctor... .she spends all of her free time looking for what is wrong with her "physically" but we know that isn't where the problem is  :( Any way she was diagnosed with "Mast Cell Disease" if your interested look it up, it causes everything. So because she has it or to validate she has it to herself, she started telling D17 that she probably has this too.  D17 has been diagnosed with PTSD so this added anxiety about this "disease" is not helpful.  Dad has medical decision making, mom wanted her Daughter to see her specialist.  D17 is a perfectly healthy 17 year old so he sent her.  No drama, no disease, no continued interaction with mom about this and D17's mind was put at ease.  

We can't always agree to things, but when it isn't harmful to the kids sometimes it's just easier to go with it and avoid conflict/drama/interaction.

Panda39

Update:
I chose a T from the list that my W gave me.  She messaged me today to tell me that the one that I chose did not see children, so I have to pick a different one.  She went on to give me the name of someone that the T that she contacted (supposedly the one that I 'chose') suggested.  My question is, one, should I contact the original T to see if this is in fact true?  Also would it be wise/unwise to contact the T that she gave me the name for and briefly communicate my concerns and see if she believes that she is capable of handling the situation?  I do not want to muddy the waters and try to influence the T.  I also don't want her to get into something that she is not equipped to handle.  I am not sure what the best coarse of action is.  I am half tempted to just tell her to go ahead with the new one and let the chips fall where they may but the other part of me wants to contact the T and see if she believes she can truly help.  I don't want the kids to get into multiple sessions and then have to adjust to a new T because this one is not able to help due to the issues at hand.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.

WC

I would call the T and double check the information, if only to try and figure out if there's a there there.  :(

No need to do anything right away, no need to discuss this with your wife.

And before you give the T a heads up about your situation, read the jujitsu link above. It's important that you read this before engaging a T about therapy for your kid so you know what to say and not say.

How did you go about choosing the first T?

livenlearned-
Thank you for the advice!  I don't see the link you mentioned.  I will try searching the site for it. 

My W sent me a list of four recommended therapists and told me to pick one.  I asked her who they were recommended by and she told me it was none of my business.  I proceeded to look into all four T's and picked one. 

WC

Oops sorry about that.

It's here: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Childress.pdf

I briefly read over the article.  Thank you!  There is a lot in there.  I am going to have to read it more in depth tonight.  I will also share a bit of the conversation that my W and I had over text messaging last night when I get a chance to copy and past it.  I think I have a relatively good grasp on basic jujitsu communication.  I might be wrong though. As far as the T is concerned, I really just want to make sure that they are able to work with pwBPD or similar.  I am not sure what the best approach is as I do not want to come across as accusatory or anything like that.  I believe that any good T will easily see what is going on, I just want to make sure that they are capable of handling it.  As I told my T a month ago when my W told me she thinks that I have BPD, if I do, I want to get the help I need to work with it and make myself better.  I am not scared of having a BPD, I just want things to be the way they are supposed to be and I am fully prepared to take responsibility for my part of and make any changes that I need to make.

WC

So this is the conversation that we had last night.  It was all over text messaging.

This isn't really about parenting or divorce but just a window into how I am trying to communicate and using 'jujitsu/SET techniques.  Any feedback on how I can improve or adjust would be great, provided that you are not critical (j/k)

Wife:
   Why do you not want a divorce?  You wanted one, so
What changed?
Me:
   I have never truly wanted a divorce.  I don’t know why you think something has changed.  Has it seemed like the only option in the past?  At times, yes and that is a very depressing place to be.
Wife:
   Your disrespectful unloving choices and selfishness make it very much the only option at this point.
   I see no regret or desire to change.
Me:
   That is a very broad statement.  I am sorry you see things that way.  As I have said, if that is the route that you want to go, I will not try to stop you.
Wife:
   That is a lie which brings us to the other main issue.  You have always been a decietful person who can not be honest and truthful, but manipulates and lies to themself.
   You believe you are a good and loving spouse because you lie to yourself!
Me:
   I am sorry you feel that way.
Wife:
   No, it is not a feeling.
Me:
   Ok
Wife:
   Did you singlehanded bring is to the point we are at?  No, but if you were honest with yourself you would be regretful and sorroful not the proud and demanding jerk that you are.
   You did deal the death blow.
   You can claim the forgiveness of God but what you fail to do is the part where you make ammends!
Me:
   I understand that you are upset about many points of our relationship and I am sorry for any hurt that I have caused.  I hate seeing you hurt and upset.  I would like to understand how I can make amends in a way that speaks to your heart.
Wife:
   I do not believe you!
Me:
   Ok
Wife:
   While I am thinking on it.  When I smiled because your dog was leaving it was relief.  He made my life hell and wasted hundreds of dollars doing so!
Me:
   I understand that having him here was upsetting to you.
Wife:
   He made life hell for agrace as well but apparently she can’t remember that!
   You going alone and gossiping and slandaring me to
The pastor, and him participating in allowing it were a betrayal of trust. I have little to no respect for him and you I already had little for.
   I will be making decisions soon about those choices.
   Pretty much you have betrayed me in as many ways as a person can.  I see no way to build a relationship with someone so selfish and untrustworthy.
   Relationships are to be built on a foundation of trust and respect of which we have none!
Me:
   I agree that good relationships are built on mutual trust and respect and that is lacking greatly in our relationship.  I also understand that you are hurt very deeply and that I am the source of a lot of that hurt.  I am very sorry that you are hurting so much.
Wife:
   No you are not!  The only person that matters to you is you!
   You have not shown any remorse for your choices or your betrayal!
   I am sick of your lies and pacifiying statements!
   Someone wjo is remorseful would do something about what they have done!
   Someone who is remorseful stops stabbing the victim.
Me:
   I would like to understand what would you believe should be done.
Wife:
   I will NOT do that!
   A remorsful repenent person knows what they should donit and does it without being told!
   They do not continue their assault!
Me:
   I think that sometimes what someone views as something that shows remorse is interpreted very differently by the person they offended.  I understand that you feel that I am not remorseful.  I am not sure what I can do or not do to communicate to you that I am remorseful for hurting you.
Wife:
   Clearly all uou see is YOU!
Me:
   I understand that is how you see things.  I cannot change how you feel.  How you feel is how you feel and I accept that.
Wife:
   What have you done to hurt me?
Me:
   I am not sure what you are looking for me to say.  Are you looking for a list of every hurt over the last 18 years?
Wife:
   Sure
Me:
   I believe that I have written down and outlined every way that I have hurt you on more than one occasion.  I am not sure what good listing everything over and over again will do.  If there are hurts that have not been addressed, I am opening to listening to those and doing what I can to make amends.
Wife:
   And what have you done to make ammends?
Me:
   For what specifically?
Wife:
   Anything
Me:
   I think what is important is not what I have done but what would speak to you and show you that there is remorse and a desire to make amends.  I cannot claim that just because I have tried to make amends or show remorse that it has been communicated to you.  It obviously has not and it will only bring more hurt if I try to justify what I have done to show remorse or make amends.  It is very apparent that what I have tried has not worked successfully.  I need you to communicate to me what you need as that is what is important.
Wife:
   Ok how are you going to make amends for betraying my trust and slandering me to the pastor and God knows who else?
Me:
   That is where I need your input.  If I just try to do what I think would speak that to you, I am very likely to fail and hurt you further and I do not want to do that.

As my dad used to say, you can't win a pissing match with a skunk 

There is a rejection/revenge history here, a library of hurts that likely predates you, and as the most intimate person in her life, you become the vessel for that library of hurts.

Engaging her at length only confirms a bias that can't be changed in an argument.



You:

I have never truly wanted a divorce (you are wrong). 
I don’t know why you think something has changed (I don't know why you are always wrong). 
Has it seemed like the only option in the past? (rhetorical question, too complicated for what she is asking) 
At times, yes and that is a very depressing place to be (so yes, you are right, but I made you work for it)

An alternative would be:

You:

Can you help me understand what you mean by something has changed? (no justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining, or what some refer to as JADE)

It's ok to ask validating questions -- this places responsibility on her where it belongs. She is more likely to wind down when there is no one but herself fueling her argument. 

 
You:

That is a very broad statement (your statement is wrong, here's how)
I am sorry you see things that way (I'm sorry you're wrong)
As I have said, if that is the route that you want to go, I will not try to stop you (I have changed my mind, but hey, if you want this, I'm good with it too)

An alternative might be:

Can you give me a specific example of what you mean by selfishness? It is easier for me to understand when I can work with specifics.

You also are not obligated to engage in lengthy text matches with her. "This is an important discussion and I want to give it the attention it deserves. I cannot do that by text messaging. I will talk about this in person (or with our pastor, etc.) when we can dedicate some uninterrupted time to a topic as important as our marriage."

The goal is to validate the valid with empathy and support, and to assert boundaries and help her regulate when she is clearly not doing so with much luck.

Emotionally, she is on a roller coaster. The best thing for you, and for her, is if you stay rooted to the ground. No one's experience improves if the two of you are on the coaster together.

It's better for everyone if someone stays grounded.

Most of the skills we talk about on the bettering a romantic relationship board are about how to stay grounded.

Even if you two don't make it, the skills are essential for raising emotionally resilient kids when one parent has BPD.

Your series of back and forth texts is classic BPD. I have dubbed it the "merry-go-round" discussion.
You are certainly not alone in this respect.
I could send you 200++ of the same type of text messages with my exuBPDw... .with the incorrect assumption that calm, rational reasoning... and sitting down to resolve things in an adult, loving and respectful manner would help move the needle a bit.  It did not.  I had to re-read many of he merry-go-round discussions to realize there was a pattern... .and at the end of the day... .or texts... .the needle didn't move.

It's odd that BPD asked you to list out all YOUR faults and what you have done wrong in the marriage on the cusps of a potential divorce proceedings. Seems like you are doing some "work" for her.

At any rate, When the BPD says, "That is a lie which brings us to the other main issue.  You have always been a deceitful person who can not be honest and truthful, but manipulates and lies to themself. (sic)
You believe you are a good and loving spouse because you lie to yourself!"

This is a bit of projecting on her part.  It's not about you.  Don't internalize it.

Others on this board can address the proper responses better than I, but be cautious of what you say.
It may come back later to haunt you. 

Lnl gave a really good breakdown.

I wanted to share a couple of links that you might find helpful based on the above  text dialog... .

The first is about JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

The other is about circular arguments
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Hope they help,
Panda39

Thank you for taking time to read through things and provide feedback!  I would like to explain the reason behind some of my choices.  I am not saying that I am right, just presenting the reasoning behind my thought process during communication like this.  I have done quite a bit of reading on JADE and did attempt to avoid any JADE in the conversation.  I will have to read up on the circular arguments as that happens rather frequently.

DivDad-
Your merry go round analogy is a very good one and is a good way of defining the way that my W and I communicate quite often.  I am beginning to understand her projecting and am able to more or less let those comments roll off my back.

Regarding the list that she requested, it is not surprising at all to me.  This is not the first time.  I believe that it is a way for her to focus on my faults and therefore not have to look at her own.  She will not address any of her specific faults.  The furthest she will go is to say she is not perfect.  She has a 4 page letter in her night stand that I wrote a few years ago, detailing every wrong up to that point and outlining how I understood it hurt her etc.  Four pages front and back.  But as you can see, I am usually not short and to the point.  As I pointed out in my response, focusing on past mistakes like that is not beneficial.  That goes for both my faults as well as hers.

LnL
The skunk analogy gave me a chuckle but it is true.  I agree that there is something deep that predates me but I do not know what it is as she has never communicated any hurt prior to our relationship.  In fact she has claimed her life was perfect and she was a 'well balanced' person before she met me.
I do appreciate how you pointed out that I was telling her that she was wrong.  It makes sense even though that was not my intention.  It was a little bit of JADE sneaking in.  I need to continue to work on that.
Here is the problem with asking questions as you suggested.  If you notice any time that I would ask a question, she would refuse to answer.  If I ask her questions like you suggest, her response will be something to the effect of, 'I can't explain that to you', 'I don't want to talk about it or won't talk about it', 'you should know what I am talking about'.  She refuses to offer any substance in return to questions like that, so I minimize asking questions.  Is that the best way to go?  I am not sure.  While the conversation does seem like a roller coaster, I felt pretty grounded the entire time as I felt like I was not taking any of the bait she was throwing out there.  It was obvious that she was looking for a fight.  As far as telling her that I will be happy to discuss things in person, I wish that was an option.  The majority of our communication has been electronic since we met and seems to be more effective than face to face as she just basically shuts down the vast majority of the time so I have backed off on trying to do that unless she initiates it or I feel that it is extremely important that we talk face to face.  The other aspect to having communication electronic based is that there is a direct record of who said what etc and I believe that could be very beneficial, not just in the event of a divorce but in therapy as well as there is not as much room for he said/she said.  With all that being said, I really do wish we could sit down like two adults and talk about things but sadly that is not the case.  She will usually turn away or refuse to look at me and if she doesn't want to talk any longer, she just shuts down and puts her fingers in her ears.
So, that is my perceptions on our communication.  I know I still have a long way to go and I really do appreciate all the feedback and will continue to adjust and improve my side of things.  Doing so has greatly improved me being able to stay calm and collected.

WC

I would let that pin drop  

Meaning, she refuses to answer = end of argument.

Getting her to share information is not likely to happen given her limitations. The questions are not meant to get her to share information, they are meant to put responsibility back on her. She can't tell you what you did wrong because she is the one who is probably committing the negative behaviors, which she projects onto you, probably unconsciously.

When she says you should know what I mean, that's a cue that the conversation is over.

That's why phrasing the question with something like "Help me understand" or "Can you give me a specific example" helps so that you can repeat it. You gave her a structured prompt, she wasn't able to answer, so you refer back to the prompt. "If you think of a specific example, let me know so I can understand better."

My ex loved having me go through what I called door number one, door number two, door number three.

Then I learned that there was nothing behind any of the doors.

So you shine some light on the rules of the game. She wants you to guess what's behind the doors. Tell her that you need help understanding how things work, and could she give you an example of what is needed to succeed at this.

Of course the only rule is that you will never pick the right door and that cannot ever be said out loud, so you engage by asking for more information about how to play and when that information isn't forthcoming, you take a raincheck and walk away.

Much easier when you are not emotionally treading water!

Any thoughts on why she is talking about divorce and your changing opinion on it?

LnL,
Thank you for the very sound advice!  I do need to work on just ending conversations.  The door one, door two, door three idea is spot on!

As far as the divorce thing, I am not sure where exactly that is coming from, I think that as well as the not supporting the family financially when I retire and all the other things that she has been talking about are her acting out because she feels like she is losing control.  She has been able to have virtually total control over the kids but as they get older, they are starting to push back and she senses that as well as others noticing how she is functioning.  On top of that, also something I talked about in a different post, she has a strong desire to move back closer to family so I think she believes that she can manipulate me into moving.  She believes this is a chess game and trying to play 'strategically' instead of trying to work together.  This is all just speculation on my part, I don't have any solid evidence to back it up.

WC

In the past some members have remarked they know when their ex is lying or projecting... .when the ex is talking.  Okay, that may be a slight exaggeration but the point is... .verify before trusting or accepting.  We've been burned too many times to trust a disordered person whose perceptions and world view are so skewed to self-interest, blame shifting, manipulation, control and so much more.

So if you ask us whether your ex was telling the truth — or the whole truth — of course you'll get a skeptical response.

Edit:  Looking at the context of your history, I see you may not be separated or divorced but the above principle still applies.  Dealing with her on her terms will keep you spinning your wheels.  On the other hand, without her being in intensive and truly progressing therapy she won't see things your way either.  So what to do?  Deal with things the way they are, not as you wished they were or hope they'd be.

ForeverDad-
You are correct, we are technically not separated and have not truly pursued divorce.
I am beginning to understand that I need to deal with things as they are an not completely on her terms.  That has taken a bit of work to accept as I have always felt like going by her terms will keep the peace but that obviously is not what happens.  According to our pastor, who we have had a few counseling sessions with and he has been able to observe for a few years, she does not want to be accountable to anyone, especially men.  I recognize that this issue probably predates me and is something that I will never understand as I doubt she will ever share the hurt from her past.


WC

She may be trying to figure out whether you will move, and if not, she will file for divorce so she can.

Something about the therapy stuff for the kids seems calculated... .

Hi Woodchuck.

I think you may, as divorce filing may be in the works, want to rely heavily on communicating with BIFF (Brief Informative Friendly Firm). It is apparent that your wife is hostile and adversarial at this juncture. The reasons or lack of reasons for this is irrelevant at this point, and I doubt you will ever get very much satisfaction chasing down that rabbit hole.

I would agree with another poster not to do too much of your wife's work for her, i.e. listing out all of the faults, failings and apologies for a long marriage. This is simply enabling the victim mentality of the disordered person in your life. I did this very thing for my entire marriage and also, yes, in my divorce. I tend to be introspective, and when someone accuses me of something, I think about it, I take it to heart and consider how maybe I could have been better in a situation. Normally, this is a positive quality in relationships, but it is absolutely not a good thing in a relationship with a pwBPD. This is where your boundaries need to come forward.

What I can share is that I wish I had taken better inventory of what I wanted or felt would be fair before entering the divorce process. I was in a pretty heavy layer of FOG (fear obligation guilt) when I advised that I was seeking a divorce. I felt responsible for harming my kids' lives, for pulling the rug out from under my wife, and for putting all of us into a lot of upheaval. I wasn't thinking about how to protect things that I knew would be in my kid's best interest (like being with me at least half but better the majority of the time), or my best interest (having a finite monetary commitment to helping out my xw and having clear boundaries around interactions and clear plan for selling our family home, etc.). As a result, I am 2.5 years into a divorce, finally have gained equal custody time, have conceded a longer term and more onerous financial commitment and am unburying myself from debt accrued because we only just now sold the family home.

I really encourage you to think about what is right for Woodchuck and Woodchuck's children and take the measures that you can to make that your goal and hopefully reality.

Just my two cents.

That may very well be, however, where we live, you can't just file unless you have 'cause' and she doesn't unless she decides to make something up.  She has threatened divorce for years.  I am completely at peace with whatever she does.  I think she is being very calculating with the kids and therapy but I think it will blow up in her face.  I am all for counseling for them as I think they will greatly benefit from having a good counselor.  I am not going to be baited into her chess game.  She has shown her cards in that I cannot count on her at all so I will continue on with life and make decisions as I go but contrary to her belief, those decisions will not be an attempt for me to win or make her lose or out maneuver her.  I want everyone to win even if that eventually means divorce.  I have told her over and over and mean it from the bottom of my heart, what I really want is to see her happy and fulfilled in life and if that means without me, I am ok with that.

WC

takingandsending-
I agree that I need to work on BIFF. At the same time, with most of our communication being electronic, there is no he said/she said.  It is all there as a permanent record that cannot be disputed.  She continues to show her true colors through electronic communication and it seems the more I can document that, the better off things will be.  That does not mean that I need/want to try to bait her into anything.  I will simply attempt to be as validating as possible and use SET.  I have personally seen a huge improvement from how I was communicating a few months ago.  I really wish I had been aware of all these tools years ago.  I feel so much more at peace as I work to put these into practice.

As you can see from our conversation, I will not be baited into listing all my faults.  It is very evident that there is no healthy reasoning behind her request.  I have listed all my faults so many times.  I have apologized for anything and everything I could possible apologize for so many times and nothing good has come of it.  It is simply another way for her to feel the 'control' she needs.  She does not want a real resolution or to move on.  If she did, that would be amazing and I would be all for it.  I am making a lot of progress on not taking her accusations to heart.  I have taken them to heart for years.  It is easy to do because there is always an element of truth to everything she says.


I appreciate all your insight!  It really helps me think about things.  My biggest concern is what is best for the kids.  I want was is truly best for them.  I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.  The idea of the kids being separated from one parent really breaks my heart as does the idea of them having to choose who they want to stay with if/when it comes to that.  No child should have to be put in that situation.  I think that counseling for them is a good first step to have a third party help influence what is best for them.  As far as what is right for me... .that is a tough question.  What I want and reality are probably never going to match up.  I still desire a healthy relationship with her.  In reality, I do not see that ever happening.  If she was able to get healthy and we were able to work on our communication etc, I think we could have an amazing relationship.  If I work on myself, things may get marginally better but the scenario will not be what I want and then I have to try to reconcile that with what is best for the kids.  If they were not in the picture, I would be planning to leave as soon as I retire.  As I am sure you understand, with kids in the mix, it is much much more complicated. 

WC

Just a few comments to throw into the discussion.

1) WC, you said, “I will refuse to fight over custody simply because I want it.” 
I think you should be fighting over custody because it’s good for your children. They will thank you later for fighting for them now.   If the time ever comes to D, maybe plant a flag in your mind that you will not accept less than 50% of custody time. Depending on the state, that is your minimum, non-negotiable item to fight for.  Don’t let the ebb and flow of future D proceedings, issues and/or circumstances sway things. Appeasing a BPD on custody issues never bodes well for you or the children. 

2) You also said, “The idea of the kids being separated from one parent really breaks my heart as does the idea of them having to choose who they want to stay with if/when it comes to that.”
 For most courts, the children really don’t choose. (Unless they are around 16+). They should not be in the position nor have an opportunity to choose.  They are not old enough to know what is best for them, but you do.  The notion that the BPD wants T for the children might be a disguise. My uBPDexw thought the T would make recommendations... .and when she wasn't getting what she wanted, lost interest in T sessions. Ultimately, it’s just you, the BPD and the court making the decision.  You need to fight for what you think is best for the children…which I know you are committed to do.  Nice guys usually don’t know how to fight hard but BPD do. The road might be long, but it will be worth it in the end.

3) Lastly, regarding communication, my court appointed parent coordinated instructed that all email communication only have one subject matter.  If two issues need to be discussed, then two emails need to be generated.  This might not be possible now, but might be a goal to strive for.  Too, if the BPD sends you an email with two or more issues, etc. respond to each issue in separate emails…If possible.  Conversely, try not and send two or more issues to the BPD  in one email.  They usually cherry pick one issue and ignore the others.  Although, some responses might be laced with insults, (ignore them and put that email/issue aside) keep the issue focused on one email/issue discussion.  Just a thought. 

Thanks, DivDad. This is what I was getting at.

Woodchuck, I felt a lot like you - I would be selfish to fight over custody simply because I want it, but a few people on this board challenged me, sharing what it was like for them growing up with a BPD parent and a parent who didn't fight for custody because of the difficulty of fighting BPD parent or uncertainty that they were doing the right thing. They weren't heart warming stories of a good RS with non-BPD parent. If you are an involved parent, you should have at least 50% time. And as many on the board tried to open my eyes to, for the kids' health and stability, you should go in asking for being the majority custodial parent.

I am now at 50% time, but this is a result of 2 years of stalled efforts and all parties in my collaborative divorce case (except xw) agreeing that it is in the kids' best interest if I were majority custodial parent. You are really the only advocate for your kids. Yes, therapists are advocates, but good ones are reluctant to take sides in divorce proceedings and bad ones generally believe the persuasive blamer parent v. the blamed parent. You have a responsibility to advocate for your kids. Sounds like they are trying to tell you they need help dealing with their mom, too. I just urge you to consider that what you think is right (not fighting over custody), what you think would be harmful (kids being separated from one parent) are admirable but possibly not serving the best interest of your children. The amount of control and manipulation your wife is engaging in will not improve upon separation. Stressful situations rarely improve a pwBPD's responses, typically their dysregulations become exacerbated. It took my xw hearing voices telling her to harm my son for me to accept this. I don't want that for you or your kids.

Perhaps a good way to view the potential conflict is not "I don't want to fight over the kids" but instead "I will fight for the kids and what I see as good for them."  We all tried to avoid conflict and confrontations but when dealing with BPD behaviors, whether diagnosed or not, you have to make a stand for certain important things.  Being passive, appeasing, acquiescing, etc are behaviors that will sabotage your parenting.  This is not a healthy relationship we're discussing, we can't afford to step back in our type of cases.

Part of your mindset may be that you really don't want to split the family.  We all felt that way.  Yet, that split is the only healthy alternative when the conflict is so extreme and the disordered parent won't listen to professional therapy and counseling.

The therapist is not likely to make a recommendation as to what the custody schedule should be.  That's not the therapist's role - their role is to help the children deal with the situation as it is.  In a divorce, a custody evaluation can take place where the children and the parents talk to a mental health professional or social worker who then makes a recommendation. 

My husband thought the same as you - that SD11's therapist would help us make a decision as to what custody schedule to propose.  My H was resistant to proposing one on his own, so we ended up scrambling at the end (when he finally accepted that the therapist wasn't getting involved in the legal aspects) to come up with a proposal he thought was best for SD11.

We were also adamant in not asking SD11 what she wanted, although we told her if something was bothering her about the schedule she could talk to us about it.  Her uBPD mom, however, is already trying to convince SD11 to go to the judge in a year and demand to live with mom again.   SD11 is so relieved to be out of that environment more often that I can't see that ever happening.

If it comes to a divorce, I highly encourage you to fight for primary custody.  Your son already knows that his mom has big mental health issues.  Your children have one parent who seems to need to exert absolute control (get in the car but I won't tell you why.  Really?) and has little emotional regulation.  Right now, you can be a buffer to that, but if you and your wife separate, then they are left alone with that for a chunk of time.  That is not a healthy environment.

My ex does not have a personality disorder.  When we divorced, I had to do a lot of grieving of the vision I'd had of the kind of family life I would provide to my children.  You'll need to go through the same.  It's tough.

I had a child psychologist for a custody evaluator.  I've heard of some here who were newer lawyers, biased evaluators, etc.  A custody evaluator can be a great resource or set back your case.  Mine was excellent.  It was clear he wanted to try Shared Parenting with a frequent exchange schedule (by then son had turned 5 years old and he recommended a 2-2-3 schedule where one parent had Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent had Wed-Thu overnights and the 3 overnight weekends were alternated).  His initial summary included, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but father can... .Mother should immediately lose her temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting fails then Father should have custody... ."  So he was practical and realized equal time Shared Parenting might not be the practical solution but he still wanted to try.  And he was right.  It failed.  About three years later I became Legal Guardian.

I recall too that even before that the court's social worker wrote up the court's parenting investigation.  The temp order had limited me to alternate weekends and an evening in between.  The recommendation was to move me up to equal time.  But the social worker was not licensed to comment about custody and hence the next step was the custody evaluation mentioned above.  Each professional has their little fiefdom (social worker, counselor, custody evaluator, police, children's services, lawyers, etc) and court is the place where the pieces are supposed to be cobbled together.

Back to my story... .  Her lawyer knew how bad the evaluation was for her.  Still, they dragged the divorce out as long as they could - without consequences - because the temp order, which no one ever modified, was hugely in her favor.  Finally, over 21 months into the divorce I walked into court on Trial Day and was greeted with the news she was ready to settle.  They could delay no more.  By that time, I had reached my limit.  Mentally I was prepared for court.  I knew settling would lock us into equal time but I felt I needed an edge, however small.  She had already moved (and would move a couple times more in the years to come) and so I was worried about her moving away and I being forced to follow my son wherever.  So I declared, "I have one term, I become Residential Parent or we start the trial."  She begged.  Even my own lawyer said, it meant nothing, only where the child attended school.  I was adamant.  She blinked.  It was smart of me because after I took charge of school, the school changed its prior "no problems" tune and within weeks they had a list of issues with her.  After one big scene at school they gave me one day to register him in my nearby school district.  Previously they had agreed to allow him to stay in their kindergarten for the final months of the school year.  The reality is that if I had allowed the usual court outcome of "Mother handles schooling" they would never have kicked us out and told us to be some other school's problem.

ForeverDad is spot on.  During the divorce proceedings, my uexBPD fought me every step of the way. She countered this and countered that…but then buckled at the 11th hour. 

BPD don’t like authority.  They don’t like “outsiders” poking into their world.   My ex tried to spin “the world according to a BPD” on me, my sons, her L and my L, but in the end, I think BPD truly fear the court and a judge. Don’t get discouraged or distracted by the hand grenades that will be lobbed at you. List out your goals, (what’s important to you and the family)  and what you need and want. Then let the dust settle. Let your L know.  You will be challenged many times, but keep the faith. 

I truly appreciate everyone taking time to give their input and sharing their experiences.  I believe that I need to work on changing my mindset a bit after reading what everyone has shared.  It is very overwhelming and honestly quite sad to try to process and think about.  I really appreciate all the support!

WC