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This quote below from the Gottman article is pretty much where I think we are at:
https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/


I believe that this describes pretty accurately where we are at.  I attempt bids quite often and she either turns against or turns away the majority of the time.  When she actually turns towards a bid or places a bid herself, there is a sense of resentment that I have to deal with that is counter productive.  Many times I want to turn against but end up turning towards in away while still keeping my guard up.  I don't know if that makes sense or not.  I think the disconnect is that I would be willing to meet just about any bid that she communicated but her feeling/mentality is that if my wants/needs(bids) differ from hers, she is going to choose hers.  On top of that, she believes that anything that you 'get' is earned and I have not earned anything good.  This too me is not the true definition of love.  There is a need for healthy boundaries but I believe that hers go to the extreme are really in place to control and manipulate even if she is not aware that she is doing that, it is going on subconsciously.

Woodchuck

For who?

Which of you two would you think is the most sensitive to this?

What impact do you think your answer to the above question has on your strategy to "better" the relationship?

FF

That is an interesting question and my first thought was that it is obviously devastating to the person that was turned away from but then I stepped back and thought about it for a little bit longer.  I find it devastating when I have realized I have turned away (missed) a bid that she has presented.  For example, she has said that she felt abandoned when we had our first child.  She claims that she reached out to me over and over and that I just did my own thing.  That is not quite how I remember things but I find it 'devastating' that I missed her bids as I would have loved to be able to turn towards her.  I am sure that it was in part due to my lack of knowledge/understanding that contributed to that.  I also believe that she had a need to maintain more parental control than she realizes or admits and that her actions made me feel pushed away and unneeded.

Which of you two would you think is the most sensitive to this?

This is a tough question to answer as I cannot really get into her head.  I believe that I am more sensitive to this as I am not able to completely shut down emotionally and be completely cold towards her.  We are both sensitive but I believe in very different ways.  I believe that she has a capability of just 'turning off' and not caring at all or at least acting very convincingly that she does not care.  I cannot do that.  If I try, I may be able to for a short time but it takes an immense amount of energy.

What impact do you think your answer to the above question has on your strategy to "better" the relationship?

At this point, I am really not sure.  I am very confused about what the best/healthy way is to 'better' things under the circumstances. 

FF
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This is a good thing to think about.  I hope you can stay there.

There a a couple threads going on.  Read Skip's idea regarding the paint job.

Relate that to this thread about bids.

What did she do when she paid for the paint job?

Let's push pause on the other questions and issues you were unsure about.

FF

FF-
I can see where you are going with the question and it makes sense.  I can see how it could be viewed as a bid.  However, is it really a bid if she did not communicate in any way about what she had done.  The argument could be made that it was a bid if she had left the invoice on my desk or actually told me what she had done but she has said nothing and the only way that I know about it is by seeing it in her car where she would not expect me to be looking.  It would be great in a sense if it was a bid, however the mixed signals are still confusing.  If I was able to see it as a bid, I believe that I would keep things short and direct, acknowledging/appreciating/validating what she did.

Woodchuck

I agree... .she likely would be that way.

Does her reaction mean that you shouldn't do it?

What does her reaction "mean"?

When it comes to being a rational, thoughtful, "computing" guy... .I'm likely top tier.  I get it... .it doesn't make sense.

Over the next day or two... .can you put your "computer" away for a bit... .let's get some feelings in the mix.  You are on the right track in the other thread as you considered a "rejected" bid. 

Where did that answer come from in WC?  Let's stay there a bit.

FF

Yes... it was a bid when she did it.  No doubt in my mind at all.

I wonder what changed for her from the time she did it, until she considered letting you know?

What changed in her head?

What changed in her "heart"?

You know her better than we do... .don't overthink this.  Use your heart.


FF

FF-
The thing is that she hasn't 'let me know'.  She has been completely silent.  I only know because I saw the paid invoice in her car.
With that being said, I know I tend to overthink things.  I think this is due to being burned so many times by not 'getting things right' so I am now at a point where I analyze/over analyze every potential outcome.  I honestly have no idea where her head or her heart is.  Rereading my posts, I see that I am kind of crossing wires with two different issues and that is probably causing confusion.  With the original issue on the post, I think the only thing that 'changed' was that I have not engaged in JADEing.  I have not taken any of her bait to start an argument.  I have stayed calm and collect.  In the past, at this point I would have been a JADE master.  It is possible that she is realizing that I am not going to fight and so she is softening but I really have no idea.  I apologize for any confusion the two threads may cause.  They are somewhat related but at the same time they are different.

Woodchuck

What if... .what if... .?  She meant it from the bottom of her heart that she didn't need you (and all the other stuff).

And...

What if when she asked you to give the cat a pill, she really needed you, felt like she needed you?

How does all that work together?

What is the common thread?

FF

History matters... I'm not saying you should forget it.  I'm also hoping you can figure out how to move forward and not "dwell" on it.

She's a person that changes her mind... a lot.  History has taught us that.  Guess what she will likely be in 2 years... in 10?

I'm not saying that is good... or that is bad.   (stand by for FF analogy).  Some people like it when it rains... .some people don't.  Rain is good for some people... and bad for others.  If you live some place where it rains a lot... and rain makes you grumpy.  Well... .you have choices to make.

Here you are looking for ways to improve things, so the rain doesn't bother you quite so much.  I'll also let you in on a "pretty sure thing".  If the rain stops bothering you as much, there is a high likelihood it won't rain as much.

Following?

I'm going to think for a bit about some of the other stuff you mentioned.  Perhaps others will share on other points you made.

FF

I have to wonder... .if you reached out less, would she be more receptive to the times you do reach out?


FF

FF-
I do not dwell on the past.  I understand how it may look with the history that I bring up.  Reflecting on things brings back memories and I see more of a pattern.  As you said, history is important and the main reason I share the history is because it does show a pattern.  There is a big difference between a 1-2 time occurrence and repeated pattern. Another example that dawned on me this AM was an issue with her car.  She found her 'perfect' car several years ago.  We drove about 6 hours to get it.  It was an older car but had low miles.  The car has had constant issues since literally the day we bought it.  A tire blew out causing $3500 worth of damage to the car (more than half of what we paid for it), fortunately the dealership paid for the repairs.  I have been frustrated with the car as I have put many many hours into repairing it, not to mention thousands of dollars.  Once we move to a new location, annual safety inspections were required.  The first two years, the car failed and required more repairs.  One of my coworkers was interested in purchasing the car and she had voiced that she was ready to sell it.  I told her that he wanted to take it to his mechanic to look at it.  She was fine with that.  When he brought the car back, he showed me that the car had passed the safety inspection with his mechanic.  He was ready to buy the car, cash in hand.  I let my W know that the car had passed inspection when my coworker went to have it looked at.  She told me that she was no longer interested in selling it.  So now, yet again, I am put in a tough spot.  I ended up following her wishes and told my coworker that she had changed her mind.  He was very nice about it but I still felt like a total jerk.



I am following.  I don't know how to make the 'rain' stop bothering me as much or if that is even healthy.  There is a long laundry list of things that I have chosen to not allow myself to be bothered by, things where she makes command decisions and though I don't agree with them, I do my best to support them.  I have let a lot of the things that I have talked about, and things I have not brought up yet, go (not forgot completely obviously, but not thought about on a regular basis) and having all these things surface in my head is causing a lot of anger to build up.  I am feeling more and more worthless and like I have allowed myself to be a doormat and don't see any way out.

Woodchuck

Just got caught up on a couple of your threads.  

Lots of history being discussed... .a lot of resentment... .there is an overwhelming amount of stuff going everywhere.

   

Sorry man.


So... .I'm going to mention 1 thing that has jumped out at me, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it.

She seems to "go unilateral" a lot and I hear from you consistently that you then "do your best" to support that.

As I think about it, I just can't find a point of view where this "makes sense".    I get it that it "feels normal" or "feels right" to you, but I suspect there is a lot of resentment built up there.

Mattress... .unilateral... .you insert yourself and expend energy rather than staying nonchalant and letting it pass back to her.

Car... .she wants something... .you get involved and handle a lot of stuff... .she wants rid of it... you get in the middle and handle a lot of stuff... .then she cancels and somehow YOU pass on the news?  

There seems to be a thing were you insert yourself into "her stuff" and she resents you... and you resent her resenting you... .and she resents that you resent her resentment... and... .(kinda like the spinning wheel).

So... .I'm more empathetic now to why you took action of saying no to the cat pill and I sense you are perplexed at us that "we don't get it... ."  you just did a huge thing by "staying out of it" (from your POV anyway... .and I certainly was giving off the POV/vibe of "dude... cat pill... 15 seconds... what's the big deal?"

Am I on the right track?

Did you try out the thinking that "her cat... her cat pill... her thing... .I'm staying out of it"?

FF

You are very correct, there is a lot of resentment.  I don't want there to be any resentment.  I would much rather move on with life and leave the past in the past (not the same as forgetting, as there are some things that just cannot be forgotten).  Doing so is in line with the faith that her an I share, forgetting what is behind and pressing on towards the goal ahead.  I am not trying to turn it into a religious issue but that is part of something that is in the religion that we both supposedly follow.  My hearts desire it to just let go of things and put energy into make the present and the future good.  The amount of resentment that is being shown on my end in these posts is not how I feel on a normal day.  I truly believe that I let go of things and do not focus on them.  I obviously have not forgotten them.




I would say that you are pretty spot on about this as well.  I believe all this, though it does not make sense, is a result of being told over and over that I am not there for her, don't support her, don't respect her and the list goes on and on and on.  I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her etc and I want her to feel that I do and so I insert myself to try to prove myself to her.  It never works out that way though, where she actually sees that I do love, care and respect her.  That is what builds the resentment, is I am doing what feel is like everything I can to prove my love for her and nothing works.  As she told me today, she does not believe I am capable of making her feel loved, cared about and respected.  That is just a huge punch in the gut.  Am I that much of a horrible person?  A I that much of a failure?  These are all rhetorical questions as I know that I am not a horrible person and am not really a failure despite the fact that I am unable to make her feel loved, cared about and respected.


This is closer to what my mentality was/is.  If I knew that taking care of something that she was capable of would result in even a little bit of positivity, I would stay up all night feeding the cat pills.  But I know that is opposite of what will happen, so I felt like maybe it was best to gently just let her take care of something she was capable of taking care of.  Yes, it was basically thinking that it was 'her can, her cat pill, her think... .I am staying out of it.'  If it had been a request for something like taking care of dinner, my response would be different as that is meeting the kids needs as well.  I want nothing more than to shower her with kindness and love etc but I am beyond empty.  I know all this probably sounds crazy.
Thank you so much for taking time to listen!  It really means a lot!

I've got an idea, that was very different from what I thought about your situation a day or two ago.

You are invalidating the crap out of her with your actions.

STOP doing things for her.  Stop it.

She thinks you don't need her... claims it... .then you do things and she realizes her feelings and reality don't match.  Just like pouring gas on fire.

I used to "prove" time and time again to my wife that I was faithful... .wasn't married to another woman... hadn't fathered a child out of wedlock... .etc etc etc.  That "invalidated" her... .

Once I removed invalidation... .things smoothed out (not fixed... but smoothed out)

How does this idea strike you?

FF

FF-
I think that is very accurate with how things are.  Her statements today about how she will not contribute red cent to monthly bills while she is living in 'my' house but she will only pay for things if she has total control validate what you are saying I believe.  I think that it would work in many ways but at the same time that is completely denying who I am.  I don't want someone that is 'dependent' on me, meaning the actually NEED me to function but I want someone that I go show love to and do things for and help enable their happiness.  I want someone who has a love language that they are willing to share with me and allow me speak and fill their tank.  Her statement that I do not respect her and her response of "you can't" to my question asking how or what I can do to make her feel respected shows that she is choosing to put me in a position that is 'unwinable'.  If this was something that needed to be done short term to smooth things out and reset things, then I would be all for it.  I fear though that would not be the case. 

WC

What do we say about making decisions based on Fear?

Obligation?

Guilt?

Ummm... .do I need to say anything else?

FF

Big focus here... .

FF

When she says you can't care for her... .that's her "feeling".

Likely better for you to "hear".  "Nobody can care for me... ."  Will help depersonalize it.

FF

FF-
Thank you!  That is a very good way to put it and probably very true.

WC

Just to jump back to the original post on Gottman's article, I'd love to see how he fits the way a pwBPD "bids" for attention into his theory.

So I'm standing there talking to the plumber who just showed up to install the new sink.  wife decides that's a good time to ask a loaded question about something as soon as we both leave the room.  before I know what hit me, she's screaming hysterically over some perceived slight that blows my mind* because it's so unexpected and escalates so quickly into full blown yelling, insults, slamming doors, and storming off without letting me get a word in, that it almost seems to be premeditated. 

SO... .I leave and go for a walk, or to the bar, or to the coffee shop.

Now I have "rejected her bid" which "devastates her."

THANKS, Gottman... .I'll keep turning toward someone spitting in my face.






*like I realize I feel physically ill when I leave the house to catch my breath.

Why on earth would you want to get a word in... with someone that clearly doesn't want a conversation.

You are there... she wants to vomit emotionally.  The best thing you can do is move out of the way of the spew... .

For clarity... .a bid for attention is a "positive" bid.  I'm not aware of Gottman's work on negative bids.

I'm sorry that happened to you... .but I'm glad you are taking space.  When you walk... .breathe in rhytm with your footsteps.  It really does help.

FF

I believe that Gottman does not talk about how the physical turning away is also painful.  Some people are so traumatized by their childhoods that they are unconscious how they physically turn away from others because they are afraid of intimacy. Most bids for physical and emotional intimacy will sound the alarm, and the person will turn away. So sad because these people are often know for being emotionally unavailable because they flee from relationships and intimacy.

 I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her etc and I want her to feel that I do and so I insert myself to try to prove myself to her.  It never works out that way though, where she actually sees that I do love, care and respect her.  That is what builds the resentment, is I am doing what feel is like everything I can to prove my love for her and nothing works.  As she told me today, she does not believe I am capable of making her feel loved, cared about and respected.  That is just a huge punch in the gut.  Am I that much of a horrible person?  A I that much of a failure?


This is my take on BPD Woodchuck. They project their own inner pain on others. I think they tend to perceive things from victim mode. It isn't possible to change another person's way of thinking. Your doing things to "prove" you are not what she says to you isn't working, because it isn't something you can do. She is going to think what she thinks.

The second statement- "am I such a failure, horrible person" is you taking her issues personally. You are not a failure. Your attempts to change her thinking failed- because it isn't possible to change someone's thinking. The issue here is in your own thinking about yourself. The question for you is why you are in this loop- constantly repeating this behavior when it isn't working.

Personally, ( and I have read this as well in marriage books) - we seek out partners with whom we can repeat childhood emotional trauma in hopes of resolving them. Our partners may not be the same as our parents, but close enough to repeat a pattern with. Part of this issue is you doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

A person with BPD who is in victim mode is struggling with their own bad feelings- and they can project them on to others and also someone in this situation probably isn't able to validate someone else. They are too focused on their own pain. This isn't about you, but about them. One thing that may shift your feeling of failure is to stop looking for your wife to change her thinking as a measure of your success.

This doesn't mean you don't follow your value of the Golden Rule. We can still be kind to people from our own sense of values no matter what their response is. If you give to charity, do you need a thank you letter from the person who received it to feel you are a charitable person? No, it is the action that you took that defines you as a charitable person. If you treat your wife kindly, it is the action that defines you, not what she says to you.

It may also help to reframe "helping too much" in terms of the Golden Rule. We step in to protect our loved ones from harm, but we also need to allow them to learn, grow, and let them learn to manage their own feelings. If your child were to be struggling with their homework, and you do it for them to relieve their struggle, you have taken the lesson away. If they didn't do their homework, then their lesson is to face the bad grade. If you rescue them from that, you take away the lesson. Applying this to the Golden Rule- if enabling, rescuing, and emotional fixing is actually detrimental to someone, would you want them to do it to you?

When your wife tells you " I don't need you" " you don't care for me" . She is feeling unloved. However these statements actually say nothing about you and everything about her. Rather than take this as something you have to disprove ( which invalidates her as FF said) simply hear her. "honey I hear you and I am sorry you feel this way" could go better than stepping in to prove she is wrong.


I want someone that I go show love to and do things for and help enable their happiness.

No Woodchuck- we show love for and do things for people from our hearts and values. Their response isn't something we can control. If she is unhappy then you are trying to change her. Of course it makes sense to wish she could be happy, but for her to be happy, she has to be able to choose this. Change this to " I want someone to show love to because this is who I am. I chose someone who may not be able to receive my love all the time, but that doesn't define me" and you may feel a bit less reactive to what she says. Remember the pink elephant idea. Someone calling you that doesn't make you one. You have seen that she changes her mind, has a feeling one moment and another one the next. Her feelings don't have to change your self image.

I truly believe in my heart that I do love, support, respect her 

I'll try to find the talk.  But one of the boundaries guys (I think it was Townsend) does a great job going through the original language of the Bible verses about "bearing one another's burdens".

I'm going from memory... but the gist of it made a powerful impression on me.

The Bible calls us to help one another and even "carry" one another in unusual circumstances.  Something comes up out of the blue (like a disaster)... .we are supposed to share our abilities and blessings with those in need.

The Bible doesn't call us to do "everyday" things for each other... .all the time.  Again... "every so often" acts of kindness are ok.   Helping your wife regulate her emotions every day... .not good.

Let's take this further.

Your wife gets hurt... .let's say a concussion and there is an inability to concentrate.  "Biblical" guidance would say you "carry her load" while the concussion heals.  Then... at some point, she's going to have to work through it, even if painful... and "carry her own load".

It's part of the healing process.

Hopefully I have time to find that today.
FF

FF and Notwendy, I agree with the point you guys made about Woodchuck's wife's comments saying everything about her and nothing about him.

That's one of those things that make this so difficult to deal with; you almost have to "speak BPD" in order to respond in the way that minimizes conflict.

I read something (I think in "Stop Walking on Eggshells" about how the black/white thinking of BPD also explains why pwBPD can go to such extremes of conflict over minor issues, whereas a simple apology, or admisson of error could have ended it hours or even days ago: in their minds, if they apologize, or admit to an error or bad behavior, then - because things are only black or white - they must be "black" i.e. all bad. 

because they seek to preserve ego above all else (a common human trait, but one taken to extremes here) they simply can't bring themselves to do this.

so the Non- is put in the awkward position of giving them an out, or finding a mutually agreeable path forward, that takes this "immovable object" into account.

Listening for empathy, is really learning to read between the lines.

And of course, not always possible when things are extremely heated or openly violent.

That's pretty much what happens.  I leave, upset over being screamed at out of the blue.  And the more it's happened, the more I find it affects me deeply.

then I avoid contact with her as much as possible, and she comes around and blames me for avoiding her.  then we talk/fight it out, and things kind of resume normalcy.

I gather this is how her own parents' dysfunctional marriage imprinted on her.  The fact that her dad "stuck with her mom" despite the abuse, sometimes even physical abuse, was a sign of his loyalty and commitment to her.

of course he also fell into alcoholism, frequently cheated on her, and spent long periods of time away from home on various pretexts... .but she ignores that part when it suits her narrative.

Pete,

There is a lot of that story that follows mine.  As you know... I'm a work in progress.

I don't stick around for much yelling... .I go around the circle once... .and sometimes twice.  If I'm still listening on the third go around... .I believe I've failed with tools in some way.

I reach out later to see if there is an interest in talking... or respond when she reaches out.  Many times she reaches out at bad times... and I offer to talk "when we are both at our best". (not tired... hungry... etc etc)

Big picture:  I've listened to less that a couple minutes of yelling/dysregulation in the past couple months.

Each event... I hear perhaps 15 seconds... 30 seconds would be long, before "my ears are somewhere else".

Sometimes validation will calm things... .I stick around then.  However... .that's usually before I would say "yelling" is involved.

How do these stats match up with yours?


FF

PS... .bring back the mystery to what your wife is thinking/saying.  Best done by not knowing what she yells about.

I can add to FF's post with the "higher power" concept from 12 step groups. The idea that all humans are of equal value has its origin in the Bible, and has been stated by various thinkers, religious and secular. It is part of our Constitution. It is at the heart of civil rights. So if the source of our value as a human is the Creator, or the law, or higher power- whatever source one takes on as their belief system, why would we let someone else define our self worth?  

Helping someone is fine line sometimes. FF's example - if someone is injured and needs help- we should help them. If someone is capable of doing for themselves- we may choose to help- if we do it out of their best interests, or it could be in their best interest to learn to manage on their own. The action may be the same- but the intent is important. I also fell into this prove myself pattern with my H. I cooked most of the time, but there were times I could not get to it. He was very critical and would say things like " you never cook for me" or " You don't love me because you didn't have dinner waiting for me when I get home". I knew this wasn't true  but I started cooking to prove that it wasn't. It didn't work. I could cook a gourmet meal every night and still he'd say it. I began resenting cooking ( I actually still struggle with this). One of the first things our MC said to us was for me to stop cooking. I was terrified " what if he has a fit?" ( she knew I was not in physical danger) and her reply was " he needs to be able to handle his feelings and you need to be able to handle when he isn't happy and stop trying to fix that".  There isn't anything wrong with a spouse cooking dinner- it wasn't the action she was concerned about but the dynamics between us. Somehow, my H felt unloved and looked at me to fix it but I couldn't fix it because it was from him. I looked to him for the validation and approval I needed ( from childhood issues) and he isn't able to fix that. We were both part of a pattern of looking at each other to solve something we had to solve ourselves.


I didn't cause whatever issues he had from childhood. He didn't cause mine. I can't work on his, but I can work on mine. It takes two people to be in this pattern and I can work on my part- which could impact the pattern. By working to "fix" his feelings, I was taking away his potential to learn to handle them. I also could see my own actions as selfish, even though they looked "kind and helpful". I was actually cooking to relieve my own fears of his anger. So, I wasn't being the kind one here - it was selfish.

Are you stepping in to try to relieve your wife's feelings because they are painful to you? Are you rescuing yourself when you rescue her?

Pete, I think an apology from someone with BPD is very hard to get, if even possible. I think it triggers a huge shame reaction that may be overwhelming. I think it is human nature to defend the ego- but their own sense of self is so fragile that a small thing could feel like a giant threat.

I've observed they use what I call the "dry erase board" method. If they realize they went too far, they do something good. Then in black and white thinking " see I am good now" and the bad didn't happen.

Maybe that is behind the motive for Woodchucks wife paying for the car repair. It's a way of "being good". I still see this as a positive. I see the "dry erase" as a positive too. If they didn't care at all, they wouldn't have done it. But asking them to talk about it or really apologize may be beyond them.

Depending on how severely affected they are, they may not even recall what they did. My BPD mother is very severe and when she dysregulates, it seems as if she has reset her brain somehow. I think this is how she handles painful feelings. Once she has done this, she feels fine and because she feels fine, she expects us to feel fine as well. Another poster used the term "word vomit"  - like a kid with a stomach ache feels better after they throw up. I don't think she recalls much of what she has said or done when she was flooded with emotions. Other times she does seem to recall. However, those of us who saw and heard it recall it.

I think higher functioning people do have memory but the shame trigger an apology causes may be overwhelming to them.

I wouldn't however provide an out reason for them. They come up with their own reason. I am not sure pushing for an apology is helpful- but if they are feeling remorse for what they did- that is their feelings to manage and we can let them be with that without causing more hurt.

I had to learn to not take word vomit personally. Hearing this has felt very hurtful to me, but taking the perspective that is isn't about me has helped.

And... .at the same time, hopefully find something to validate or that just might move the r/s to a more positive place.

Check out my other thread I made this morning about an email my wife sent to me complaining about sex.

Luckily... .I didn't take it personally... .because what she "alleges" happens versus what actually happens is so ridiculously far apart... .  Yet I understand she has a very intense feeling around this (and likely other things)

See Notwendy stories about "never cooking"... "never" having sex with hubby... etc etc.  I actually remembered those stories as I read the email this morning and said to myself "Ok FF... this isn't about you and it's not about how the sex actually happens"... .most likely "It's about intense feelings I have" (perhaps about sex)

FF

Notwendy-
I guess I never looked at it as trying to change her thinking but this actually what it is.  The questions that I posed about being a failure/horrible person were meant to be rhetorical as I know I am not but with the steady barrage of 'attacks' it is difficult to not let that pink elephant try to be convincing.

It is interesting that you bring parents up as she is a lot like my dad was, very controlling and it was his way or no way etc.  She is like him but on steroids.

I think that I have helped too much in many ways and the homework example is a great way to look at it.  It can be difficult at times due to the protector/rescuer mentality that I tend to have.  It can be quite difficult to determine where the line is between helping and helping too much.  I am slowly understanding and putting into practice not taking her 'attacks' personally.  It is not an easy thing to learn but it does make me feel quite a bit better about myself.

Talking about apologies, I can count on one hand how many apologies she has offered over the years (not including the standard, 'I am sorry you choose to feel that way'.  I truly believe that she is incapable of apologizing as you suggested.

I do think that there is a dark part in her childhood that she has never talked to anyone about.  She claims that she had a well balanced childhood and she would not change anything about it.  I just don't buy it.

FF-
You make a great point about carrying others burdens.  What makes it a bit difficult is there is a combination of guilt mixed with the desire to help/rescue.  So a bit of the carrying is done to try to make up for past mistakes that are still obviously open wounds.  What I am slowly realizing is that I could work myself to death and it would not help.  I could feed into her statements about being relieved if I was dead and kill myself in an effort to help her find relief but I understand that would not happen in reality.  Using your analogy of the concussion, it has never healed but I think that it hasn't healed because I have worked to hard on healing it for her.  It is almost like one person having cancer and their partner going in for chemo over and over to try to heal the other person based on the fact that the cancer they had was in part due to the second hand smoke from the cancer free person.  It is their fault because they made the poor choice to smoke and the cancer patient continuously reminds them of that.
The problem that I have with the arguing is that I actually enjoy a healthy argument. If we are discussing politics or some other high conflict issue at work, I will typically take the most volatile position just to poke the bear.  This is not something that works well with pwBPD.  If I didn't understand JADE, I would be be the king of JADEing and I have been the king of JADEing in the past.  In large part because I want to be understood but there is also a part of me that just wants to debate as well.  I have all but eliminated that from communication with her as much as possible.  It is really eye opening how big of an impact that has.
I did see your post about the sex issue.  It sounded quite familiar but in reverse.  I have to work on depersonalizing things but it is difficult.  I mean, how do you communicate with someone that tells you 'no' after asking you what you would like.  They already know full well what you like, so why do they ask if they are going to say no?  Again it is probably about control, but how do I change my response? 
As far as Notwendys stories about never cooking and never having sex, I can really relate as my W will say that she is tired of taking care of EVERYTHING and she is the only one that does this or that and I never do this or that and then I work my tail off to try to meet the need that it seems that she has communicated but it never really works out because as Notwendy pointed out, I am trying to change her thinking even though that is not what I feel like I am doing. 

I probably missed a few points that I wanted to respond to but this will have to do for now.

WC

Woodchuck,
Perhaps I get an idea of what you are trying to do when you jump in to take responsibility for things or to fix things for her. I sense your motivation comes from being altruistic and helpful and at the same time, perhaps thinking, maybe if I do _____, then she'll be happy or in a better mood.

I've done the same thing myself. Just a few minutes ago, I caught myself on the verge of trying to "fix" my husband's upset.

Today we've got a window washer here, tackling all our windows, not only in the house, but in several outbuildings. It's getting late in the day and we have dinner reservations in a couple of hours. He was getting upset, thinking that the windows might not be finished by the time we need to leave.

Of course, true to style, I invalidated him, saying that N. is making good progress and if we need to, we can change our dinner reservations to later. As per usual, my attempting to smooth things over just made him more upset, so I left him to stew alone in his studio, with a bright, "It will all work out" as my parting remark.

If I'd thought about it, I would have validated his feelings, rather than trying to be logical and pragmatic. But I didn't and once I had stepped in it, I realized that a swift exit was better than staying on my present course.

Chances are he will take the time he needs to calm himself down and maybe the window washer will return on another day, maybe we'll just give him a check and be on our way to dinner, maybe he will get all the remaining windows washed before we have to leave. It's not something I'm going to spend any time worrying about, unlike my husband.

I'm trying to do my best, observe my patterns of communication, and notice when I overstep my bounds, and when I do, to change course as soon as possible.

It's a learning process. 

Cat

I find myself stepping in to “fix” feelings before I’m even aware of it. I try to stay mindful of it but it’s very ingrained from childhood.

It’s intesting that you mentioned your wife wishing you were dead. I’m glad you realize that won’t fix her feelings. My parents had issues and my mothers issues did not go away when my father died.

I was my mother’s black child and as a teen she told me I was the cause of my parents marriage problems and told me they were planning to send me away to school . I wasn’t a problem child so where she came up with that I don’t know. They never did send me away but when I left home for college I believed my parents would be happy. A younger sibling later told me things didn’t change.

You do have an influence on the drama between you due to your side of things but her part isn’t due to you.

I do want to clarify that she said that she stated that she would be relieved if I was dead and that is different that wishing I was dead according to her.  I have discussed this hurt with her more than once and she always points out that she didn't say she 'wanted' me dead, she would just be relieve if I was.  I think no matter how the statement is made, it still hurts the same, I just find it odd that she likes to pick it apart and try to 'justify' it.


While this is not most likely directly in line what you are talking about, I think it is important as you are talking about childhood.  My W told our D11 a few months ago that she had a black heart.  I truly hope that our D11 did not internalize that statement.  It still makes me angry to think about it now.  I think a large part of why it bothers me so much is because my dad would tell me that I was a 'prodigal son' when he was unhappy with me and that still affects me to this day.  I have been able to pretty much work through it but it is just one of those things that will probably stick with you and come up from time to time.  The things we say to our kids have a very lasting impact.

WC

Cat-
You hit the nail square on the head and drove it in all the way with one swing.  This has been my mentality and as you pointed out, it is completely futile.  I think that is why now I am having a hard time determining where that appropriate line is between doing enough and doing too much.  It is all very complicated but the good thing is that I am at least thinking about all of it now as I have not in the past.

It is so easy to just let something out without thinking.  It is almost like walking through a minefield and not paying attention for the mines.  It is a learning process, but the good thing is that there are things that we can learn to make things better.  It is great that you are paying attention to patterns and making adjustments.  It takes a lot of focus!

WC

The two qualities- projection and denial are ways of defending their ego from shame and keeps them from seeing their part in relationship dysfunction.

These kinds of statements - that she'd be relieved if you were dead- aren't about you, but wishing away her own pain and projecting it on you. It's making you the scapegoat. It's a pink elephant. Rather than discussing the semantics of that statement, let it go.

As an adult, you have the experience and maturity to know it's a pink elephant. A child does not. I believed my mother when she said those things to me, just like what your father said made an impression on you. My H doesn't have a BPD parent but his father said very critical things to him when he was growing up too. Our FOO's do influence our choice of romantic partners and one of the issues in my marriage is that we both were inadvertently triggering each other's childhood hurts. I might say something and my H would hear his father's voice and verbally lash out. I would then feel hurt and try to emotionally fix both our hurts. We were both on autopilot with this pattern. Change the pattern for the better and you not only change the patterns in the marriage, you may also change the pattern for your children.

I am finally at a point where I am letting it go.  There were several dark months where I thought about it daily.  But I am past that now for the most part.

This is very true.  What makes it difficult in our relationship is that I am the only one that is open and honest about childhood hurts.  Instead of being open and honest in return, she inflates the hurts in my childhood to be much more than what they are and insists that all our problems are based on my 'warped' childhood'.  I am able to see past this and I am focusing more on trying to help both of our children develop and better their communication and coping skills.  Hopefully it will all pay off.

WC

I don't think we can get them to look inward at things. I know that I tried. Compared to my FOO, my H's family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting but that was mainly by comparison to the dysfunction in mine. I wanted to learn more about my H's family but he maintains they were normal. Taking a closer look, I could see issues. He has told me some of the things his father said to him, which in my book would be verbal abuse. I don't think my H realizes the impact of things his father said to him, or what my H has said to me. Both our "normals" were influenced by our FOO  and they cause relationship issues. My "normal" was to be an enabler. His was to verbally lash out like his father did.

It helped me a lot to recognize my own triggers and also see his. I could see where something I may have innocently said would be very hurtful to him. It also helped to work on my own triggers and stay calm when I felt them, and not react as we'd get into a place where we both triggered each other. This wasn't the same as walking on eggshells, but I knew when we'd stepped in that mudhole and that it was time to stop the conversation. A MC did help us both with that.

It was interesting to be working on issues with two different people but similar patterns. I think my H is more on the traits side and BPD mother is severe- but seeing where someone was triggered and the automatic reaction- to lash out with hurtful words was helpful- because I saw it in that context- and did not react to the words. This cut down on the drama between us significantly.

I think it would help to not expect your wife to process her hurts like you do. I think people cope with feelings in different ways. Denial/Projection are strong defense mechanisms. When she is "hurting you" with hurtful statements - it's her pain talking. If you don't take it personally you won't escalate it.

I find it really odd that my husband seems incapable of being self-analytical beyond a mere cursory look. I think he will start to look inward and then stop when he sees issues that trigger shame. When in the past, I've brought up a problem (I know not to do this anymore  ), I've often heard him say in his own defense, "I'm not totally bad," in a voice tone that sounds like a little boy.

I was perplexed when I'd hear that. At the time, I was trying to make him aware of some relatively insignificant thing that had gotten on my nerves, such as leaving his wet laundry in the washer for days until it started mildewing. In my mind, there was no "bad" it was merely a "Would you pay a little more attention to this?" kinda issue.

Cat, I think we are sister wives!

If I bring up an issue or something that happened the reply was " it wasn't all bad" as if there is a binary choice- all good or all bad and if it wasn't all bad it goes into the good section.

Or " I wasn't all bad".  So that means no problem!

"Bad" isn't even in the lexicon. I think my H is a good person but even good people can have conflicts. This kind of reasoning makes it difficult to resolve them through discussions.

Childhood trauma typically results in a confusing between:

"I did a bad thing"
&
"I am bad"

Children take criticism holistically "I am bad", adults take criticism on a case by case basis "I did a bad thing"... .Core shame.

Sorry, that's probably a bit of a 'suck eggs' explanation for you two.

I know, Notwendy! The vocabulary, the similar responses. It's like they've read the same playbook.

Certainly this type of response effectively shuts down dialog--and maybe that's the intent.  

You're right, Enabler. Anything that triggers the core shame, whether it be "Did you throw away yesterday's newspaper?" can lead to self-flagellation, which seems ridiculous to a non, given the circumstances, but very real to a pwBPD.
 

It's true enabler and especially when one has a critical parent it is easy to have a shame trigger.

I've had them and they feel awful. It takes some work to identify them for what they are- that also helps to empathize with someone dealing with them if we have felt them ourselves.

Making one mistake can trigger them.

Having an emotionally immature parent who is incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, and whom has to apportion blame to EVERY error regardless of it's significance or accidental nature destroys little minds. I wince when I hear my W deflect responsibility of her own ineptness onto our little ones. Fortunately I'm arming them with the shield of rational defense... .yesterday for example:

W - I'm so busy doing all this packing for you girls, I've got to get the car packed before it gets dark
D8 - If you hadn't agreed to 'friend' coming over you would have had loads of time, besides, it's your holiday as well with your friend.
W - <huff>

If my S14 or D11 would use that response, they would be attacked for being disrespectful.  I was shopping with the kids last night and my D11 wanted to get a boxed cake mix to make.  She made it today while I was at work and according to her, the eggs separated but in reality she did not mix the batter well enough which resulted in scrambled eggs and cake.  It was really quite funny and good learning experience I thought but all my W could focus on is the wasted food and how incompetent our D11 was.  I kept reassuring her that it was just a mistake and that is how we learn and we will get another one and I will help her with it.  I stayed calm but I really wanted to give my W a piece of my mind.  It as just completely rude.  Fortunately our D11 seemed to take it in stride.  I too am trying to arm them with the tools that I am trying to learn myself.  I think they are doing a very good job all considered.

WC

It's tough to be there every moment to intercept what kids hear from a BPD mom but I do think that doing what you can to validate them can go a long way. It was only when I faced my own co-dependent behaviors did I recognize them in my father, yet, I attribute a lot of my resiliency to him. What may be different with my BPD mother is that she had little interest in raising us, so we had a lot of time with him.

The cake mix incident with your D reminded me of when my mother would make me bake as a teen. She'd sign up to bake something for our school and then tell me to do it. Once, I accidentally burned something and as you imagine, it didn't go well- with accusations that I did it on purpose. Good for you for allowing your kids to learn from mistakes. I imagine we messed up a few recipes before getting them right.

Interesting parallel- my H would be angry and grouchy with me if I didn't cook dinner, so I cooked dinner out of fear and began to resent it. Maybe this has something to do with it. I think our childhood fears do influence our behavior in relationships.

Lots of dirty kitchens and "interesting" recipes at FF house as kids try them out.

We often (once a month... sometimes more) do a think where the kids cook and parents clean up.  Sometimes that is matched up with a think where everything on the menu is a new thing... .made by a different kid and then we do the "food critic" thing.  The gist is we are looking for new items as "keepers".

We also figure out "cost per plate"... .since that is a factor in my house... .

FF