BPDFamily.com

As I've mentioned in previous posts, my BPDh recently had surgery and is on extended time off from work.

Being off his "routine" has never been good for him and tends to excaberate his symptoms.  It can take just a few days to set him into a downward spiral. It's been a week since he's been home. He spends most days sitting in the chair (knee surgery... .so partially understandable... .I'll elaborate more on that). He is using his iPad for 12+ hours per day... .probably not beneficial even for a healthy person.  He is often dysregulated and spends time yelling/swearing at me and the kids.

As for his medical issues, the doctor instructed him to engage in full weight bearing on his leg and also gave him a set of exercises to promote healing. He has done neither.  I have wondered if he's trying to sabotage his recovery in order to get more time off from work... .though I could be completely wrong.  Tomorrow he will be going to the doctor and we will know more about how he's healing.

Back to the main topic of this post. I can usually tell he's decompensating when he starts to experience paranoia.  For example, today I was going about my daily tasks, doing laundry and cooking dinner, when he accused me of making a face at him he didn't like.  I was focused on my work, lost in my own thoughts,  and don't recall even looking at him. This has happened in the past, when we had some serious issues going on with his adult son. That time, he threw a chair at me (thankfully missed) when he thought I might be making a face at him (I was sitting outside,  relaxing, with my back toward him).

He has also insisted that people "hated" him and were talking about him, with no proof at all, when he's in these states. Has anyone ever experienced this with BPD?

Get some popcorn... and a drink and a comfortable chair.  I could go on for a long time.

FF movie trailer (wife believed I was married to another woman and had a secret family, also there was another woman I had  a love child with and named the child after my wife.  She believed I would sneak home early from military deployments, spend time with this woman and then this woman would drop me off at the airport and I would pretend to retrieve my bags as if I had "just" flown in)  Those govt types know this would also require me to falsify my travel claims (federal felony) as well as other administrative issues.

Now... .that's paranoia.  (unfortunately... .I could tell stories for a long time)  Avoiding invalidation has pretty much made this kind of crazy go away.

The face thing is related to paranoia, it's also related to "projection" and "mind reading".  My purpose is not to diagnose or correct you, but to point out that your actions are the same, regardless of paranoia, projection or the other things.

Focus first on not invalidating (usually that is being quiet and listening).  Then before you speak, think through the concept of "validating the invalid" (because you don't want to do that, while attempting to validate the valid)... .then perhaps you get around to actual validation.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Asking these types of questions is pretty safe.  Resist the urge to "correct".

FF

Hi jsgirl,

My uBPDh also had a thing where he would accuse me of making a face at him or "smirking" or laughing at him when in reality I had done nothing of the sort. He also thinks people are out to get him, talking about him, plotting against him, recording him, "sending him messages" by saying things to him that "let him know they've been listening to him" and has even thought that people in the grocery store were "crowding around him" with their carts to eavesdrop on what he was saying. He regularly thinks that "they" (whoever they are) are turning a microphone on his cell phone on in order to listen to his conversations, and he has literally searched every house and vehicle we have ever lived in or driven to find listening and/or tracking devices. He actually once searched my mom's power wheelchair for a listening device, and also came up with the idea that listening devices are planted in used furniture that is sold in thrift stores in order to listen in on conversations after people buy the furniture. Once he went through a period where he thought the tv guide channel was sending him messages by the movies that were coming on tv- he found correlation to his life in the titles of the movies and shows coming on and thought someone was programming them on purpose. He has believed that the numbers on lottery tickets correspond to Bible verses that were meant to send him messages. He has believed that I was doing everything from cheating on him to trying to poison him.

I noticed that these symptoms increased in intensity under times of heavier stress. He always displays some degree of suspicious thinking or paranoia, but it gets to the point of full-blown psychotic delusions sometimes under more stressful conditions. He also had knee surgery once, and he was absolutely unbearable while it was healing.

I have for years thought he needed some type of anti-psychotic meds, and I really did not know what was wrong. I thought he might have some type of psychotic disorder. It was not until I started reading posts on these boards that I realized that paranoia and delusional thinking can be a huge part of BPD and not necessarily a separate condition.

Good luck to you, I hope this helps. I don't have much advice about what to do about it, but at least I can let you know that you are not alone and others have definitely experienced this type of bizarre behavior from our pwBPD.

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

In my experience, yes it is... .its very prevalent/reoccurring in my relationship/marriage to u/BPDw.

I used to dismiss it, early on... .but as time passed, it got worse, seemed to anyway;... .so no more dismissing it, had to, have to deal with it.

Sometimes ignoring it works, sometimes validation is in order... .always learning new ways to "cope", handle/deal with her paranoia type behaviors.

Red5

Good morning FF... .thank you for your reply. 

Wow, it must have been challenging to deal with those kinds of accusations.  I am guilty of invalidating,  especially when the idea expressed is so far-fetched. I read the post and will try asking some of those questions the next time this happens.  Hopefully I can also make this go away!

Redeemed,

Thank you for your reply.  I'm sorry to hear you had a difficult time after your husband's knee surgery. In a way, it is reassuring to me that someone else has gone through this and came out the other side in one piece.

I feel like my husband is more paranoid than he vocalizes.  For example,  he always wants the shades drawn and the blinds closed in the house. Problem is, I enjoy sunlight.  My opening the blinds can cause a fit of rage for which he really can't give me an explanation.  He will also have unexplained rage at the prospect of going to a social gathering, unless it involves his friends or family members.

My husband's paranoia will also worsen under periods of heavier stress. Spending too much time in the house with just me and the kids also increases his symptoms (and dysregulation!) - possibly due to having more time to ruminate.  Outside interaction seems to help him some.  I've been encouraging him to set up an outing with his oldest son (also BPD and out of work) to no avail. He's devaluing his son at the moment,  but that can change from minute to minute.

I am also realizing that paranoia and delusional thinking seem to go hand and hand with BPD. I'm noticing this both with my husband,  and clients at work.  I'm wondering if the paranoia ties into the self-centeredness that's such a huge part of BPD, rather than being of actual organic delusions (like a schizophrenic would experience.) For example, if a person with BPD believes that someone is listening/monitoring him... .is it because the BPD believes they are so important that anyone around them would try to monitor his daily activities?  Not sure if this is making sense, more of a hypothesis on my part.

The latest update on husband:  He went to his doctor's appointment this week and his time off was extended for at least another 5 weeks. I don't know how I'm going to survive this. He is constantly dysregulated.  For example,  tonight I went to lie down and ... .I don't think 5 minutes went by... .and he was hitting and swearing at the kids... .calling them names I wouldn't call an adult.  Apparently my prayers for a swift return to work aren't being answered.  So now I'm praying for an opportunity for some sort of "holiday" to come up for him.  Maybe a trip to another state.  I can't tell if his being at home is more unhealthy for him or for the rest of the family.

Red5,

Thank you also for your reply... .

It definitely is tough to deal with these behaviors. Ignoring them has worked for the short term. Unfortunately it doesn't resolve the actual paranoia. It seems to always be there, ready to come out.

I think you are right about the self centered nature being at the root of the paranoia. My uBPDh has some magical thinking in that he believes he can see and communicate with supernatural beings (demons, angels, ghosts) and he believes he has some sort of psychic abilities. I think it is an attempt to counteract the negative self image he has by believing he has some type of special abilities.

Redeemed

Yes it was... .and to be clear... I made things worse (out of ignorance) for a long time.  Lots of damage done that likely won't ever be healed... .but perhaps it can be moved past.

Much of how you "deal with this" is counterintuitive

I erroneously believe that proof that I wasn't married or didn't have a love child would help.  Let me assure you it didn't help.  It invalidated her feelings and pushed her further into paranoia

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

This is a general lesson about invalidation.  Can you try to extend these ideas to "dealing with" paranoia?  What answers do you come up with?

FF

I haven't had any extreme dealings with paranoia with my BPD loved ones, but I have noticed very minor incidents that lead me to believe that pwBPD can be excessively self-focused.

One time I took my elderly mother to a family restaurant. In an adjacent booth there were young people laughing and enjoying themselves. My mother became convinced that they were laughing at her. It struck me as odd because when I was that age, old people were just about invisible to me.

Another example is when my husband goes into a grocery store and if the checker, with whom he's tried to be personable in the past, isn't as friendly as he'd like, he will tell me how "unfriendly" that person was and be really upset. There have been times when I was with him at the store and I sure didn't see any "unfriendly" behavior.

So if this is low-level paranoia, I can imagine that if this is their baseline mindset, how easy it could be to carry on these flights of fancy into some very strange narratives, such as what FF and Redeemed have experienced.

I experience this ALL the time with u/BPDw... .it drives me crazy, .seems she is always "slighted" by fill in the ____... .almost on a constant basis now,

In my world with u/BPDw, baseline mindset = "default behavior"... .

This is her "natural state of emotion", .low-level / mid-level, and to the extreme paranoia, .anything else presented is in a way; "fake", or phony... .and only lasts for a short time, until the next slight (perceived) is encountered, and then "off" she goes again.

However, she has learned (boundary), that I will not put up with these behaviors when she is out in the public with me (together), .or in company of others, to include her foo... .what she does when she is solo, that's on her, and she suffers the consequences of her behaviors, I no longer "rescue ".

When she comes to me to complain/explain "why" she is now on someone's $h1T list... .  or how somebody else is treating her badly (perceived) because they were disrespectful, disagreeable, or else ____ (who knows), and that she does not deserve this that or the other treatment (ie' ST from her foo resultant)... .I just look at her and say, ."that's not how I heard it Dear, or "oh' well"... .or of late, I have been saying to her... ."smooth move ex~lax"... .,

It works for me, no more rescue, and no more "smoothing it over for her".

Its the old "jelly doughnut" routine, .I hope you enjoyed it at others expense, now you're going to have to pay for it Dear.

Red5

I'll wade in as usual... .

Healthy people think Cause >> Effect... .pwBPD tend to think Effect >> Cause... .whilst being unable to view their own emotional responsibility apportioning blame to someone other than themselves.

Couple of examples:

MIL protests that a neighbor is "rubbing their new car in their face by parking it on their drive." The Effect = MIL feels the emotion of jealousy/envy. Rather than accept this negative emotion is all her own doing she seeks a 'cause' for the bad feeling. Her natural conclusion is that the neighbor is intentionally rubbing the new car in her face and "forcing her" to have the negative feelings.

W believed I was responsible for a series of rapes in our local area in around 2003-2004. She observed my erratic behavior which incidentally tracked her erratic behavior owing to her constantly blowing up about me abandoning her. I 'caused' her to become angry and afraid and therefore I must be dangerous. Since I 'was' dangerous, I must therefore be responsible for the rapes in the local area. It ceased when they caught the rapist.

Sometimes the only 'rational' reason for an emotion is yourself... .if you can't own the cause of your own emotions i.e. you, you have to do some pretty imaginative thinking to find a rational conclusion as to what else caused them.

Here a few weeks back, we had just gotten out of the Grand Cherokee in the Church parking lot, and we are walking up to the Church to enter for Sunday morning services... .there is this brand spanking new silver Lexus parked along the street, my S31(autistic) asks me... .Dad, is that light silver?

Before I can even get a radar lock, my u/BPDw says... .its metallic silver, that's my dream car, and I'm VERY envious... .

Harmless right, .maybe;
*A: She is driving a brand new "burgundy" Grand Cherokee (GC) that I purchased for her.
*B: She told me she did not want another car, so she sold her Altima coupe, after I purchased her the GC.
*C: Saying the word "envious" on Church grounds... .not cool !
*D: SO!... .what am I, and the new GC... ."chopped bait" ?  (?)
*E: "Dream Car"... .really, & barf... .I'll remember that next time I post the monthly payment  :cursing: & 

And last but NOT least "F" !... .my Son 31(autistic) then says to me, without any hesitation... ."Dad, what does "envious" mean, is that a color like silver", I did not miss a beat, no Son, more like burgundy !

And then I opened the door, and we went inside the Church... .SAFE !

The BS never ends around here... .ha ha ha !

Red5

Enabler,
The effect>>cause thing is a great way to describe the thinking of pwBPD. It seems as though uBPDh is always perceiving the behavior of others to be responsible for some negative emotion he has. Ex: he feels jealous and insecure, therefore I am doing something to make him feel that way ( such as adding co workers to our joint Facebook page) and then concludes that I am doing it on purpose or with dubious intent. Then decides that since "my behavior" is hurting his feelings, I must stop said behavior. Never is it called into question that his feelings result from personal issues or dysfunctional behavior and thinking. Always, I am the one who should change what I am doing because he sees it as the cause of his uncomfortable feeling.

His baseline is definitely low grade paranoia and suspicion. Always perceiving personal slights, and overly critical of what he determines to be the selfish behavior of others. Usually thinks people are purposely pushing his buttons to make him explode, I.e. "sabotage" him. This I think is his way to blame the rage and anger he feels building up on others. He has to have a reason to explode, so he finds one by blaming others for "poking him with a stick."

His view is that it's not the angry dog's fault if someone deliberately antagonizes him. But the deliberate antagonization is all in his head. Really, he just can't tolerate daily minor annoyances or inconveniences that most people just accept as part of being an adult.

Redeemed

Redeemed,

"he just can't tolerate daily minor annoyances or inconveniences that most people just accept as part of being an adult."

You just described my H in a nutshell, better than I ever could. Minor things - like one of the kids speaking while he's using his iPad- will set him off into a rage and it's never his fault. Low grade paranoia is definitely his baseline too. In the past, we have discussed his exaggerated reactions to relatively minor things. While he has admitted that his reaction is over-the-top and not something a typical person would do, he sees his behavior as "okay" and is not willing to make an effort to change it.

And you mentioned your H being overly critical of others. I can relate very much. I mentioned in other posts, that my H has 2 adult sons, both diagnosed with BPD.  If either of those sons behaves in a way congruent with BPD, H will make a comment like "Look at that *expletive*, he's such a borderline!" However a few hours later,  if H is behaving in exact same way, he doesn't see the similarities.

Yes, highly intolerant and critical describes all the pwBPD that I've lived with: my mother, and both husbands.

The flip side is that all of them are and were terribly self-critical and had bouts of self-loathing.

FF... .Hi!

I finally read the article on Validation.

I'll admit it's difficult not to "invalidate" or "try to prove wrong in a rational way"... .paranoid accusations that are so far fetched. I should know by now that "rational" doesn't work with BPD.

Actually,  speaking rationally tends to set H off more. I remember one time early in our marriage,  he was raging over something minor. I tried to calmly explain to him the situation (I don't even remember it anymore) ... .and he screamed "Stop it with your rational talk!" From that day on, he has proven that he strongly dislikes anything rational.

For example, long before I even dreamed I would have an affair,  I was constantly accused of having one - with co-workers,  random people on the street, etc. (Side note - being accused of having affairs did not influence my decision to actually have one... .at least not consciously. )

I too would try to prove, or "rationalize" that I was not having an affair.  Of course to no avail. I think I might have caused him to "put the accusations away" temporarily,  but they were always simmering, ready to come out again. This also holds true for his beliefs that others were out to get him.

Never have I tried validation... .it's certainly something I could attempt.

Here's a current paranoid accusation: For months now, he has expressed a belief that I'm either having or about to have an affair with an associate pastor at my church. (There is no truth at all to this.)

I'm thinking of ways I could possibly validate him in this situation... this isn't easy!

Here's a potential scenario:
H: "I saw Pastor R at the store. The first thing he asked is where you are. I know there's something going on with the two of you!"

Thinking about how I could validate this statement.  I could start with validating his feelings...

JSGirl: "It must make you uneasy to think I'm having an affair with Pastor R."

Validating the statement itself,  when I know it's untrue, is more difficult... .

JSGirl: "Because Pastor R seemed more interested in where I was, you feel there is something more going on with us."

Honestly I'm not sure how these validations look, or if I'm completely off in left field.

Cat,

I follow your posts and I commend you for dealing so graciously with a BPD mother and 2 BPD husbands. I complain so much dealing with one.

My BPDh also deals with self-loathing.  Occasionally he verbalizes it, but mostly it bubbles near the surface... .coming out as projection, mostly onto me.  I often wonder if the paranoia he experiences is directly related to the self-loathing... .as the delusional thinking always involves others disliking him or doing him wrong.

My PWBPD admitted early on that relationship-driven paranoia was a big problem for her.  Nothing on the level of "you're making faces behind my back", but she definitely thinks that people who are kind to her in person are at best indifferent, at worst scheming against her when they're not in the same place. When she went on vacation with her secondary partner, she was convinced I was sneaking around with someone on the no-fly list (we're mostly open, but each of us is allowed to veto people who make us uncomfortable).  She often thinks that I'm trying to engineer social situations that will cause her grief or harm when I just wanted to do a thing with my friends and wanted her to join me.

Paranoia's one of the keystones of BPD, we all live with it, though I haven't had any experiences quite as extreme as the one you're describing.

Red5,

I'm curious about how you set the boundary of BPDw not engaging in certain behaviors while she is in public with you or her foo.

Lately my BPDh has been getting worse with public raging.  A few nights ago myself, BPDh, and the kids went out for a quick dinner and ice cream. Throughout the whole meal, he raged, swore, and verbally abused the kids. It made me uncomfortable to the point I had no appetite.  Husband didn't care who was around us - no shame for his behavior at all. I decided I will no longer go to a restaurant with him. This is in addition to many other places I will no longer go with him due to his behaviors (hotels, water parks, to name a few.)

I'm just wondering how to set that boundary.  It's at the point where the only solution I have is to just not go places with him. I don't believe he behaves in negative ways when he's alone in public, so he does have some control. I guess the kids and I are triggers for him and he feels "comfortable" dysregulating around us.

Later this week, I am having minor surgery.  I'm not going under anesthesia,  and I'm able to drive myself there and back. However,  husband is insisting that he drive me to the appointment.  I really don't want this, as the last thing I need is for him to dysregulate (highly likely) and stress me out during the procedure. If there is a way to set that boundary without causing a war, I want to do it.

By the way "smooth move ex~lax" is hilarious.

there is also a concept of "not validating the invalid".  I think that perhaps you were doing so.

Usually... keeping your mouth shut is a safe bet.

"Oh my goodness... .I have no words... ."  (perhaps gently shake your head... )

Listen, yes... tools are important but we can sometimes get lost in tools.  Stay authentic.  He said something shocking that would leave most people speechless... .stay there... stay authentic.

Use that time to think and collect yourself.

Also... many times it's best to "hand it back to them."

So... .if he won't let it go after 5 minutes or so.  "Goodness Babe... I just don't know.  You appear so stressed over this. (yes... stay vague)  Perhaps you should call Pastor up right now.  Do you think that would help?"

blather blather

"What do you think helps the situation right now?"

at some point you hopefully get an emotion... .validate that.  Don't try to validate the details.

example... .don't do this
"Oh wow... I can totally see how any rational person would think Pastor spanks me with the pew Bible while at the same time making me "sing" from the Hymnal."  (although sometimes running these things through your head will help relax you... .chuckle at yourself so you can approach these in a non-defensive way.

FF

But you did decide to stay, even with no appetite.

Can you walk me through your thought process to stay and listen to what must have been just awful stuff.

FF

Well, this is what I started doing... .(extreme maybe, but it works) if u/BPDw starts up, and shows her @$$, while out in town at the eating joint... .I make one verbal warning [threat] = (promise)... .I calmly say to her in my low tone monotone NPR radio announcer voice, ."you are out of line here (or something to that effect), you know I don't like it when you act this way, this is un-called for nonsense, please stop, or I am going to get up and leave", .

If she blows past that stop sign, then I get up and leave, I say nothing else, I don't even look back at her, I leave... .I pay on the way out (cash, I carry just for that purpose, credit card takes too long)... .and I leave, .I may sit in the vehicle, I may walk off someplace else (with my S31 [autistic] in tow)... .I can call a cab, I can walk, I can go someplace else... .I drop off a "Ben Franklin" at the cash register for table #___, and out the door I go.

I've done it in the past several times... .and!, .so has she, she would get mad over something, stupid... .and explode, oh' yeah, you'd think I had stabbed her with my spoon or something ... .and off she'd go, but she did not pay the supper tab on the way out, that is where I am different.

I used to "walk into these" setups, for lack of a better word, all the time, but I began to learn... .

She herself has walked home ( a few miles) from several of the eating joints here in town... .I have several great war stories about these events, and this was before I discovered BPD... .


No, I don't put up with it anymore, and she has come to understand this, so she has pretty much stopped doing it... for now, .there are still "events"... .but for the most part, it has stopped... .caveat;... .she does this (did this) also to her foo, her mum, her son & daughter, even her sisters... .I'm not the only one, but the difference is, I am her Husband, and my boundary says NO, you won't act like this when we are out together... anymore, or there will be immediate consequences... .ie' I quietly get up, pay the bill, and make like a tree (leave)... .and then she is "cleared hot" to sit there by herself, and eat her chow alone, .she is on her own then,


This is another time when she has pulled a fast one, or two on me, .she will get peeved about something, the morning of a medical appointment departure, as sometimes we travel for her appointments several hours away, she'd get mad, and leave without me (after I took off work, and made arrangements for S31[autistic]... .there was a time I would panic, and be upset, that she'd done this... .but I don't do this anymore (BPD'ism)... .I just go on about my day, and that's that.

As far as me, I don't do this with her, .I really try to be a nice guy, a supportive Husband... .if I have an appointment, and if she gets mad at me, and leaves, then that's fine, oh' well!... .I'll just call someone else, or take a cab home... .no worries, .but as we know, say you are in for an endoscopy (or the like), they won't even admit you if you don't have an arctic buddy, and "A" driver, you know, someone to drive you home... .so she has not "left" me in the recovery room yet, and when its her turn... .and I do support her when she lets me, but I must have her "mutual respect", if she becomes verbally abusive, I'm g-o-n-e gone... .I can use up all the fingers on one hand now, counting the times she has "bolted" on me, and drove herself the three hours north for her appointment at the C center... .and left me cooling it in the "chocks"... .again, oh' well!... ."suit you're self" I say.

Yes, .as far as an outing, dinner, a walk on the water front, a "date"... .or time with foo, a foo family get together, and she slips her rail, I immediately eject myself (and S31[autistic]) if he is with me/us... .yes, I walk !... .I don't try to "save" the moment anymore, as it NEVER works out anyways, .so she has learnt that this is a hard boundary, and I will "execute the plan" should she loose her bearing while out in the public... .trips, travel, "vacations"... .that's another story!... .fraught with "what ifs", and historical "self inflicted; I told you so Red5's"... .I recently wrote a thread about just this thing, a "vacation" far away, via airplane with u/BPDw... .oh' yes, it was NOT a let down, she acted exactly (red-flag) as I knew she would, but I participated for the "sake of"... .

Anyways, there it is, hope I answered your question ; )


I have found that sarcastic humor is life... .if you cant crack a joke, and try to laugh, you're dead... .and I am sorry, but even at BPD's expense !

Red5

Oh... .thank you jsgirl    I've had a lot of practice.    Truth be told, I certainly wasn't making any progress in dealing with pwBPD until I landed here in crisis.

I'd had my fill of that sort of behavior and I was completely mystified at how to deal with it. Logic has been my number 1 tool over the years and I just couldn't figure it out. And believe me, I was far from gracious.  :cursing:

But now I know what I've learned here, I don't take things so personally and it's much easier to tolerate some of the BPD quirks. That said, it's still a pain in the neck at times. 


I think you're on the right track--projection is such a key component to BPD.    To think what goes on in their heads--wondering always if everyone likes them or is judging them--what an awful place to be. 

Hi FF... .thanks for your comical reply.

I use "keeping my mouth shut" the majority of the time... .I also have used statements like "I have no words!" And in the past., that has shut him down.

So regarding the restaurant episode... .usually a restaurant has been a "safe" place to go, where he has "behaved". Places that require more action and interaction... .like amusement parks, hotels, even some church events... .I've written off going with him because of his behavior.

The reason I stayed at the restaurant... was that I had nowhere else to go. We were about 20 minutes away from home by car. I guess I'm just so accustomed to this behavior that getting up to walk out didn't even cross my mind. Of course now, in retrospect, going to sit in the car seems to have been the better idea. I'm not cruel enough to leave him at the restaurant,  though I know some people who would be.

I will wait until he goes back to work before I go enjoy a restaurant again by myself (most likely Chinese... .I'm already planning.) That's what I tend to do when he "misbehaves" somewhere... .add it to the list of places I will not go with him.

Red5,

Thank you so much for your informative reply.  I enjoy your style of writing... .I can sense the personality behind it... .

If I were to use the NPR radio announcer voice and tell husband I didn't like what he was doing... .he would probably tell me to go  :cursing: myself. He has actually walked out on restaurant meals before.  In these cases, he will start dysregulating... .I will give him minimal or no feedback... .and he will continue working himself up and end up walking out.  After those episodes,  he is usually dysregulated for a few days.

As I wrote in my last post, I'm most likely to just not go out to eat with him rather than deal with the behavior.

Regarding the medical appointments... .that must be so frustrating to deal with, having her act up after you went through the trouble to accommodate her and arrange to take her to her appointment. 

On more than one occasion,  H has "freaked out" on the morning of a procedure... .suddenly telling me he doesn't want me to take him and proceeding to give me the silent treatment.  I'm not sure if he's projecting some kind of anxiety on me or if it's just textbook BPD behavior.

An update... .I had my appointment yesterday... .a minor surgery on my leg... .and all is well physically. (Funny thing is, no one in my family has even asked how I'm feeling.  I did receive texts from several coworkers). Husband did drive me to the procedure,  and I was relieved when they took me in and told him family members were not permitted... .it made things far less stressful.

On the way home, we were going to stop for food. He started to dysregulate at the prospect I might choose something he didn't want,  so I let him choose. However, once we got home, he just needed to dysregulate... .the cussing me out, swearing at me. Thankfully I had church last night and took the kids and went.

I am wondering if you could send me a link to your "vacation thread". Maybe I could learn something.  I've had several horrific vacations with BPDh... .starting with our honeymoon. I'm talking 5-star, all inclusive resorts in Dominican Republic and Mexico... .pricey vacations to Disney World. All ruined by a dysregulation.  I'm the main breadwinner in the family who paid for most of these elaborate vacations.  So I decided back in 2016... .no more vacations.  I know he's not happy about that... .he commented not long ago "We never go anywhere"... .but what am I going to do?

Not sure where else to put this, but today has been a day of severe anxiety for me. I attribute it mostly to husband being home from work.  All the angry dysregulation.  It's going to be at least another month before he goes back to work,  and I worry that when he returns to the doctor,  he will be presenting as someone in severe pain to get his time off extended. (In reality he's physically healed and out fishing). I don't even know if I can tolerate another month,  never mind more

What would happenn if you asked him to take you there again.  He agrees and you directly but succinctly say that you didn't enjoy the last time, but it  would mean a lot to you if you could have a respectful conversation over dinner.

pause... .

What do you think he would say?

FF

Why tolerate another day?

Seriously.

Pick a clear example/thing that is really bugging you.  Next time he does it, give him a choice... .he can have your presence or he can have (fill in the blank).  Let him know you will abide by his choice either way.

Stay very neutral when you say this...

What would you predict will happen?

FF

jsgirl360,

Here is the requested link... .yeah, me2!
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326356.0;all

Best Regards!,
Red5

Plan a vacation with the ability to "shift" if he chooses to dysregulate.  Very important that you continue with your fun time and let him handle his extreme emotions.

FF

Hi Red5,

Thank you for posting the link to the vacation thread. I decided to reply here instead because I wasn't sure how others felt about resurrecting old threads.

I can completely relate to everything that was posted. I agree that a change in routine can be a giant trigger on vacations.  H has even admitted that going on vacation is a source of stress.  Even in the most convenient circumstances (transportation pre-arranged from the airport,  meals available 24 hours a day and all-inclusive), dysregulation is still unavoidable.  I also agree with FF that there is something about getting closer in intimate relationships that "triggers" them. I have no doubt that if H was to vacation with coworkers or distant relatives,  he would be able to regulate himself. 

The final family vacation I went on was Disney World in 2016.  It was my husband,  the kids, and my mother. My mother has her own issues with "psychosomatic" symptoms.  I think because she wasn't allowed to express her emotions as a child, she "feels" them physically.  So 15 minutes after she arrived, she looked around and decided she didn't want to be there. The physical ailments started - first stomach ache, then chest pain, and finally she decided she was unable to walk, so we had to push her around for the parts of the trip she didn't spend in bed. It was definitely an extra stressor. Funny thing is, once we got to the airport to go home she was literally running to the gate. I hadn't seen my mother run in years.

Needless to say, husband was dysregulated the entire time... .anything triggered him... .from the food to the lines. The majority of the time he was cussing me out and swearing at me. It really set him off when I said we're in Disney World... .we should be enjoying ourselves. 

Even the kids did not enjoy themselves.  And what kid doesn't love Disney World? My youngest especially,  cried and complained the whole time. It's possible that he was mirroring the behavior of my mother and my husband.  Perhaps in other circumstances,  he would have been normal kid having fun.

(Side note... .my younger son is showing signs of BPD. It's not surprising, since my husband and both of his grown sons are diagnosed... .so it looks like there's a strong genetic component. There is also the nature vs nurture correlation... .meaning that being raised under the influence of a borderline definitely brings out those genes)

After that horrific vacation,  I decided no more vacations with any of them. It's a huge sacrifice for me, because traveling to different parts of the world has always been my dream. It's just not worth the aggravation and tears of traveling with them. I don't get to enjoy myself anyway... .

It's funny... .the other day... regarding a trip to the zoo... I made a comment that I was not going to bring my mother because "if she happens to decide she doesn't want to be somewhere,  she has to ruin it for everyone else." BPDh actually admitted "I do the same thing" and repeated it several times in the conversation.  That proves to me that he has awareness of his behavior. 

In reply to FF... .

It's difficult to plan a vacation with the ability to "shift", as splitting up during a trip is also a trigger for him to dysregulate.  If I were to even suggest some time apart or separate excursions,  he would accuse me of trying to meet other men or having sex in someone's hotel room. The dysregulation would become worse and most likely last for weeks after we returned.  So it's a lose-lose situation for me. The simplest solution for now is to give up traveling.  I prayed about it. If it's God's will for me to travel later in life, it will fall into my lap and be unavoidable.  It might even come all expenses paid... .that way I know it's from God! (I may still be reeling from the $10,000+ I choked on for the Disney disaster ;) )

This is my first attempt at quoting so hopefully this works... .

I think his response would be dysregulation. Well  "$#@% you" if you didn't enjoy the last time, maybe you should find someone else to take you."  A huge part of his BPD is he can't deal with criticism or perceived criticism at all, even if it's presented in a gentle,  tactful manner.

However,  if criticism was presented by an acquaintance or extended family member,  I believe he would still have the negative thought process but not the "explosive " outward reaction.  I definitely feel due to the close relationship,  I am a trigger for him.

Finally got this quoting thing down ;)

If I did the extreme and asked him to choose between acting like a respectable husband and leaving... .or me and the kids leaving for any amount of time... .he would leave. Asking him not to dysregulate is like asking him not to breathe or eat, it's so much a part of him.

Something that really bugs me is... .swearing at me and cussing me out. If I were to say, "this behavior needs to stop or one of us needs to go", I believe he would be out the door. Our relationship is very conditional and fragile. At one point last winter, he was about to pack his stuff because I said "any day except for Saturday" in regards to a day he wanted us to go out to dinner with one of his coworkers.  (That Saturday I had planned a surprise birthday dinner for him with his other coworkers... .which is why I said any day except that one.) The dysregulation was so bad it practically ruined everything. He repeatedly called me an @sshole (his favorite thing to call me)

The next question obviously would be... .why don't I just let him leave?  He mostly just spews negativity.  He doesn't contribute much to the household financially.  My answer is that I don't want to cause the kids any further drama or trauma. People have told me that in the long run a separation would be better for them. It just pains me to imagine the hurt on their faces. I've put it in God's hands. I feel like this situation isn't His final plan for my life.

Good morning jsgirls360, only have a moment and I am typing on my cell with my “coke bottles” on so I can see ... .
Sometimes, considering my first marraige and now this one (long long story)... .and all the other things that have happened in my life... .I think ... .that I am on a mission for God, to quote the “Blues Brothers” LoL ,

Anyways, please keep posting and as I am now overdue after dropping S31(autistic) off at his day program, and step D33 and her husband are visiting, and today I/BPDw has a doc appointment this morning, after her last episode of tremors the evening before she went on her backyard rampage... .geez ;(

I’d better get back home now, sitting in Church parking lot typing this,

Have to say I held my boundary with her yesterday morning but it has Ben costly, almost as much as I had to pay the honey truck man after he had to come and help me fix the septic lines that got crushed by the track how that came into the back yard to pick off the huge limb for me, .ou’boy!

I need a vacation !

Take care now! Red5

Hi jsgirl360,
As a child of a BPD mother, I'm not sure the idea of keeping a dysfunctional marriage together for the sake of the kids is a sound concept. If your husband regularly rages at you and the children, what are they learning about marriage? And what are they learning about the role of a man in the relationship?

I learned to be very contemptuous and mistrusting of women from watching how my mother behaved. It took me a long time to repair those feelings--and some big bucks spent in counseling, grad school and seminars.

My mother often spoke about divorce. Of course that was frightening to me as a child. But now I wonder how my life might have been different had she pulled the trigger and I would have had a safe refuge with my father at times.

They ended up staying together until my father's death. By that time, he was a broken shell of a man from all those years of dealing with her.

I would never encourage anyone to divorce, but I'm not sure that staying in a toxic marriage is better for the children. Just saying... .

Cat

What if divorce meant the kids spending more time with uBPDw and less time with me (hopefully not crackers). Logistics don't allow me to be primary carer.

I think you understood leaving to me "leave the relationship"

Boundaries... .he controls his mouth... .you control your ears.

If his mouth is unpleasant (which is 100% his choice) and if what you are hearing from his is unpleasant to you... .the YOU are 100% responsible for what you allow into your ears... after all, who controls them?

So, he blathers... .you say "We can't spend time together while "threats" (or another appropriate word) are between us"  Then YOU leave the room.

Most likely first couple times it's best if you leave.  After he understands you are serious... then give him choice.

Very important to stay neutral.

Now... .take my statement for a minute.  Did you accuse him of anything?  Can he think about this statement and figure out how to spend time with you, if he wants that?  Is this an individual thing... or are you talking about togetherness as a couple?

How does that wording strike you?

FF

There's never any easy answers regarding kids and divorce. My dad made the effort of taking me and my friends to various events: amusement parks, museums, the beach, tickets that I'd gotten to watch television shows be filmed. It was easy, no stress being around him--very different than being around my mother, who constantly created chaos in her wake.

It's impossible for me to say how it would have been should I have spent more time in my mother's presence, but it was truly a gift to be around my dad and have a sense of normalcy.

I stayed ina completely dysfunctional and broken marriage way past the due date... .almost twenty-two years for my three kids... .then she left, and let me have the kids to finish raising... .  by then early teens... .I was a single Dad for five years until I remarried u/BPDw #2,

Lots to be said for sticking it out, bogus sides of the coin,

I could not leave my children with stbx #1, far to risky.

But this was my situation, a very long story.

My kids faired much better since I stuck that one out, God took care of us.

Red5 

Here quite a while back, after a big dysregulation... .fight and shouting match... .then the recycle... .u/BPDw says to me, now get this!... .she comes out with “ you handled me well” ?/!

That floored me, I showed no outward emotion, but inside I was like... .“what in the world”!... .

... .“you handled me well”... .

Ok, that was ______ ?

I swear!, I think a pretty good percentage of the time, u/BPDw is completely aware of what’s she’s doing... .and that pissses me off !

Who does this ?

Red5

I occasionally get comments like that from my wife.  That I "did ok" or "was strong".  (not the normal... but not unheard of either)

Really odd.

My guess is it was like being on a runaway train or something like that as her emotions went off to the races.

FF

It's been a busy, busy work week! There are several messages on this thread I'll be responding to shortly... .

Last Saturday,  I worked a 16 hour shift.  The kids went to a babysitter.  Between picking up the kids from the babysitter and me arriving home from work, husband had to watch the kids for about an hour. Kids are always a trigger for him, so by the time I got home, tired,  he was completely dysregulated.  Barely staying awake,  I was dealing with the swearing,  yelling,  insults... .

It gets better... .and this ties to the paranoia topic of this thread. My mother (who lives upstairs from us), had a church friend visit. This woman is a 75-year-old, widow of a pastor.  Very Pentecostal if you know what I mean.  

I mentioned before that BPDh has paranoid ideation that others don't like him.  When this elderly lady arrived to the house, she interacted mostly with me as she doesn't know my husband well. (I mentioned in past posts that husband identifies as an atheist and mostly stays away from church.) Well, BPDh took great offense to this and began cussing and raised his middle finger in the unsuspecting woman's direction.  Later I tried to reason with husband that the woman doesn't know him well and that is why she didn't speak much to him. Also, old-school Pentecostal women often won't socialize much with men who aren't their husbands.  It was to no avail. He felt persecuted by this woman.

I believe his being out of work is making his behavior worse. Which brings me to the next big event of the week. His car needs to be fixed (it's presently at the garage), and it turns out the work needed will cost around $1000. He doesn't have any money saved. Even though he doesn't contribute to household expenses,  he spends his paychecks pretty quickly... .between his older son... .gambling... .and I don't know what else.  I am going to try to use this situation to convince him to go back to work.  Normally,  since I make more than double his salary,  I would just offer to pay for the car.  But this time,  I haven't.  He's expressed concern over how much it costs. I've affirmed what he says, but I have not offered to pay. I'm hoping that the financial needs will push him to go back... .I'm not trying to be selfish or unkind, I just need my respite.

Physically he's healed from his surgery.  However he has hinted that during his next doctor's visit, he's going to present as infirm in order to get more time off from work. If he does do this, we will having a conversation about his oldest son. About a year ago, BPDh was having a particularly tough time functioning at work, regulating his moods around his coworkers.  At the time, I told him if he was to stop working, I could support both of us with my salary.  However, I will not support his grown sons. BPDh was not happy to hear this, but it caused him to continue working.  I believe he has enough accrued time to last him to the end of 2018. After this, he would have no income. I'm hoping that his finances will convince him to return to work. I realize it's a lot more difficult for someone with BPD to function in a workplace than for a non... .but I still believe working has a positive effect on him.  

Last event of the week I wanted to mention.  Since BPDh has been out of work, he's trying to micromanage everything in the house. He opposes everything I say, especially with regards to taking care of the kids. He even tried to demand the kids stand under a tree during a lightening storm because I said not to (Yes, this really happened!) He doesn't even leave the house for more than a few minutes... .I believe he's worried he'll miss a chance to dysregulate...

Anyhow, my elderly aunt suggested she come over on Labor Day, and we (my mom, husband,  kids, and I) can have pizza and cake. Husband quickly tried to hijack the event, saying he didn't want pizza (although everyone else agreed to it.) Instead, he wants Ribeye steak, cooked on a grill. But we don't have a grill. I bought him a nice grill a few years back, but he left it outside all winter and it rotted. He seemed to expect me to go out and buy another, but I didn't offer. I thought he was going into full BPD freak-out mode over wanting the Ribeye, but thankfully he didn't (yet).

Hey jsgirl360


Your instincts about "what to do" seem to be really good (not paying, not buying another grill... etc etc)... .I hope to get you to think a bit more deeply about "why" you are doing those things... .or "what you hope to accomplish" (get him to do)


Your thought about not supporting him financially is sound.  I would not "split the hairs" about supporting him and not supporting his adult kid.  In fact, by mentioning it... you could be "validating the invalid".  Is discussing supporting someone that should support themselves really a topic worthy of your time?

Just say no... move on... let him connect the dots  I would express confidence that he can work through it and assure him you will "give him the space" to do it. (this must be said in friendly way... .or skip it)

If you are going to support him not working in the household, I would tie it to household chores or other things of value.  Should he choose not to do these... .don't support him.  And don't be shocked.  Certainly don't leave the chores to him that "really matter".

What I want you to avoid is him sitting on the couch, having food brought to him... being demanding and all that.

OK... .let me deal with your goals a bit.  They aren't bad ones ("so he will return to work").  

To me... that's a bit micromanaging.  Let him connect the dots.  Think of it as a child that is maturing and understanding the natural consequences of their actions.

Perhaps

He will get his children to support him.

He will start a modeling career.

Get an advance on that book he is wanting to write.

Go back to same job.

Get another job


Your stance on all of those is... ."if they work... great"  

If it ever comes down to this, we could certainly get into details.  drama triangle matters.  You don't want to rescue or persecute.  And you certainly don't want to stick around to be the victim.

Much of that can be avoiding with "proper delivery", which we can help with.

FF

Hi Cat.  Thank you for your reply. Sorry for the delayed response.  I know all too well what it's like to grow up with a BPD parent. My father was surely uBPD, along with several other mental illnesses with which he was diagnosed. As you can imagine,  things were quite dysfunctional in my house. I came to believe this kind of life was normal,  and I suspect the behavioral patterns I saw as a child affected my choice to marry a man with BPD.  Actually I have no doubt they did. If left to my own whims,  I notice that I naturally gravitate towards men who are mentally ill, specifically the Axis II personality disorders.  I have to consciously and intentionally guide myself to choose friendships with healthy people.

I would hate to see my kids to end up in the same circumstances as me. I hope to do my best to guide them away from unhealthy people.

I'm not against divorce.  I've thought about the drama and trauma it would cause my kids. I've wondered if the drama and trauma of staying is worse. BPDh has spoken of divorce since our honeymoon.  I know BPD's are known to be impulsive.  I'm waiting for the day he will meet his new "feed" and not come home. Wishful thinking? I'm not sure.

I will respond to more messages on this thread later tonight!

I meant to respond sooner. It's been a long week with no free time. Now I finally have some time to kind of relax... .at work of all places.

Lately I have been leaving the room... ."taking myself out of the equation" and controlling my ears... .when the yelling and cussing starts.  Usually I will not say anything when I leave, I just walk outside or into another room and sit down.

The reason I don't say anything when I leave is any statement about his behavior can be a trigger and add more fuel to the fire.

I notice the kids are following suit and BPDh ends up sitting alone in the living room. He will then make a comment to the likes of "Guess I scared everybody away".  You think?

So it's safe to say he realizes the cause and effect of his behavior.  The big question is... .does he care? Based on his comment, he seems to be a little rattled by the results (being left all alone), but not concerned enough to change his behavior.

Hi FF... .I hope you're having a good weekend...

The reason I'm not offering to pay for the car repairs is, I suppose, somewhat selfish on my part: I want him to feel the need to return to work. I need a break for my own mental health. Having him home all the time is draining.

My reasoning for not buying a new grill, while not as big of an expense,  is just the fact that I'm not willing to spend money if he's not willing to care for his possessions. Later on, I will post about his difficulties with managing money... .it's enough to start a new thread over. I don't expect him to suddenly learn money management skills or responsibility out of this situation.  I just want him to feel that he needs to continue earning an income. I'm desperate for a break. If this is what I have to do, I'll do it (decline to give him money).

There is one reason for bringing his 34-year-old son into the discussion. When husband wanted to stop working altogether about a year ago, his "desire" to support his son is what stopped him from quitting. BPDh would be alright with staying at home all day, being supported off my income.  He would spend his days on the internet and playing apps. I understand going to work is more stressful for him than to a neurotypical person. I'm also starting to suspect some social anxiety (he will go more than a week without leaving the house.)  However, I've noticed time after time that going to work also helps him to regulate his mood... .

So at the time he wanted to quit, I told him that while I can support him, I won't support either of his adult sons financially.  He made a comment to the likes of "I guess I'll just work until I'm 90" and didn't mention quitting again. Presently he is supporting just his oldest son, who has BPD and isn't working. While he doesn't have to support his son, he feels the need to in order to save his own face. His son has no problem with dodging the rent, having gas and electric turned off and basically living in squalor.  This is an embarrassment to BPDh, so he continues to shower the son with money. I feel that the threat of his adult son not being financially supported is practically the only reason that keeps BPDh working. That's why I feel the need to pull out that card when necessary.

So far, he hasn't brought up the car subject this weekend.  I know he's reeling about it and it will possibly lead to a dysregulation.  On Friday,  he did come up with potential solutions for car such as "if the repairs cost too much I'll take out a loan and buy a used car". I continued to affirm his suggestions but did not offer money.

By the way... I enjoyed your suggestion of him starting a modeling career... .although it is much more likely than getting his children to support him ;)

Wishing you a relaxing Sunday... .

You have good, logical, rational reasons for doing what you do.  The point of my post was that your reasons for what you want him to feel and experience are way to specific.  Waaaaaayyyyy to specific.

Remember... .rational mind versus emotional mind.

He likely thought "my wife hates my adult kids and she is making me work until I am 90... .and she won't let my hippopotamus play in the pool anymore"... .(insert grinding noises of BPDish brain "thinking")... ."well, I better keep working... .at least she lets me park my car next to the broom she flies around on... .as unreasonable as she is I guess I should be happy for that".


Now... .you being a rational person realize that you shot and mounted the hippo on your husbands den wall and you better explain that to him again... .he now has a unicorn in the back yard.  And (steam rising from your ears)... ."I  don't ride a broom... .that's what your (insert unsavory female) does... .yes... the one with a wart on her nose"  sigh... ."I park my carpet next to your car... .I ride on a flying carpet with my genie lamp."

And you walk away horked off about the wart thing... .I mean... really... a wart.

Now... .after attending bpdfamily's communications with a BPDish person school you know that he can believe what he wants... .the details don't matter, he connected his own dots... and he is working.

He solved his own issue and you gave him space to solve it.

Thoughts?  Do you see the "point"?

FF

I don't think there's anything selfish about wanting him to return to work now that he's able to do so. Self-protective, yes. Selfish, no. If he just lays around the house and grouses and puts you and the kids on edge, it would certainly be better for all concerned that he return to working.  Having to show up at a job will get him more focused upon controlling his emotional outbursts, at least at work, and it probably will carry over to home to some extent.