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I did everything I possibly was willing to try but a broken woman is a broken woman .The only thing I did different this time was keep my cool versus getting angry.We had set our boundaries a month ago which were not cancelling plans that were planned , no lying and evidently no cheating in any form.The first two were breeched three weeks in so all I can say was today was my last straw .She had told me she was going to her fathers and to see her grandma (here is the kicker) she sends me a video at 416pm of her and all her single gf’s at a music concert ,she’s drunk as a skunk and follows up with the text you don’t have to worry , and a heart? Then says I’ll read your text tomorrow I’m too drunk. ? Who does that , who purposely breeches a boundary then gloats about it in a video? First time I’ve ever seen anything like this in all my life .

My best friend,family and other day to day friends all told me the same thing .Any 30 year old mother that club hops , bar hops ,drinks and does drugs all with single female friends 5 years younger than her is bad news ,red flags everywhere.She doesn’t respect you to put herself in the position of being flirted with and so under the influence that’s how accidents happen ( if you know what I mean).At the very least if she wanted to spend time with you she’d of asked you to come with her this weekend and last weekends club hopping till 4am.By her not doing that it says a lot ,she doesn’t need you seeing what’s going on.

With that said folks I’d tend to agree with my friends and family .Any woman that has her kids this weekend and dumps them on her 69. Year old mother and clubs it up after lying about saying where she was going and then sending a video ,well it tells a good story .Like a good quote says : when someone shows you who they are ,believe them the first time .Its a pity given she has her tender moments and good moments but there is too much darkness in this one .Her childhood was bad yes,physically and mentally yes ,it’s a heart breaking shame to even know the story and watch the outcome , but I didn’t cause it.I tried my best to deal with it, at first fix it but I learnt since then.I tried to just cope and set healthy boundaries,not over react ,in a sense be the emotional stable healthy pole of support for her .It only amplified things to a worsening state , like “ oh you have boundaries do you ?” Well no sorry let’s test them intensively .It was the lack of respect to be honest that broke the camels back for me.I can take emotional better know,I can love unconditionally (still love her a lot), but a little peace of us seems to die inside when we let boundaries (values) call them
What you will, when they get attacked or broken.Its painful to watch happen but much worse to do nothing ? Walking away seems like a stupid solution maybe but I believe NC may be best now.I never wanted it to come to this ,she is my little love but I can’t watch myself be taken apart piece by piece.My father and mother came to me today and told me ,please give me her number so we can stop this ,it’s been a year since we haven’t seen our son ... .this took me off my feet .My father a military man ,no emotions normally said this to me , he said he can’t bare seeing me so destroyed and unhappy .

Sometimes we don’t notice our character change ,only the outsiders do and my best friend even a family memeber of 17 years old said to me , Shawn you look defeated what’s wrong you don’t look well.All this plus my sixth sense ,weird dreams ,weird events giving me signs left right and center .Im not a spiritual guy but holly Molly have I has weird things happen to me these past months very scary stuff. Time to sleep on this and hopefully sleep.

It sounds like she's too used to her coping mechanisms to be stable enough to be in a healthy relationship. 

I agree , it hurts to have it put in your face but I agree .Its funny cuz she was telling me a story about her ex and one of his main complaints was exactly this .She would go out come home at all hours of the night or next day sometimes a couple days later .Shed tell me this like he had a control issue ,all the while I was thinking “ who buys a house with a guy and agrees to marriage but continues her party life never including the guy”? I guess some people are just too far gone , never had boundaries to respect .I should have noticed the non confrontational red flags a mile away this time around .Here 69 year old mother was the one that painted her entire apartment because she couldn’t ( and was never home ).Her family and most friends couldn’t be bothered to go to a birthday party for her kids (which made me sad) but now that I think of it ,why would they not bother with her ? This list goes on and on and every time she would lie to me or do something that breeched what we agreed to no longer do to each other, it was either a silent treatment before or the opposite the I love yous and excessive compensation like a video or endless pictures of what’s going on? 

I could never piece together the excessive stuff like pictures or videos .Sometimes it felt to me she was trying to say “ see nothing bad is happening I’m being good “, or sometimes it would feel like “ haha in your Facebook with your boundaries I’ll do what I want”. Never had anyone do this to me before very hard to understand what is going on.

For a woman of 30,two kids she’s highly immature.I feel bad for her children very bad ,they keep being tossed around while she parties heavy .

*mod*

We moved this thread from Detaching to Bettering, as this is home board. The move does not suggest any action or encourage any decision,  its simply because Detaching is for members who have broken up, the relationship is over, and they are coping with grief and recovery. It is not a place to discuss relationship conflict or potential breakups.  

You went through this reaction last week. At that time, we talked about how you could exit with grace... .You don't need you family to intervene. You don't need "no contact".  If you simply say "we are not a good fit", it will end there - she is more of a "runner" than an "obsessor".

I mentioned a week or so ago, relationship have a limited number or restarts. Each recycle tears down the basic fabric of the relationship (between the two of you, with families, with friends). The tear down is pretty far advanced and you can see that. There is most likely the same thing happening on the other side - you can image where her friends after the pregnancy 6 months ago.  :(

Putting that all aside for a minute. I think you might want to look at your values (and boundaries) here.  You say "respect" in very important. You mention it often and it is, of course, it is very important.

As we always say in our values/boundary discussion, before we can ask another to value our boundaries, we must value them ourselves. Walk the talk.

So I will ask, you have called her a liar, a cheater, and bad mother, financially irresponsible, broken, etc. to yourself, and to your family and friends. You have told people she cheated on you even when you really don't have anything to substantiate it - you have painted her black to your family.

So the obvious question is, do you/have you respected her? I'm not saying if you should or shouldn't, just, "do you?".

This is really the most important thing in the world of values... .no one will respect our values if we don't respect them ourselves.

As for her behavior, in my personal life, my girlfriend hangs out with her friends, a lot. It was unsettling to me in the beginning but I learned that this is important to her. She plans trips with them too  - out of the country. This is who she is. I respect her and trust her and I don't stress when she is out with them. We have grown strong in that. Her friends are important to her. Now, if she comes back later than expected or is out of phone contact for a period of time, it may concern me, but I give her the benefit of the doubt. I want her to feel free to share with me what she really wants to do... .and to feel free. As she has gained trust in me, she tells me everything about her trips... .she doesn't feel the need to hid anything or avoid certain topics. Psychologists will tell you that true intimacy is when the partners can be theirs;eves with each other and be loved and respected for their beauty and their flaws.

I hope this helps. I know you are very upset today. I'm trying to sketch out a rough raod map to help you navigate.

Have you learned more? How do you see things today?

 

I think I need to just stop this.Her going out with her single gf is one thing but lying to me then doing it and sending me videos and telling me not to worry is just not a healthy normal respectful person .Its just not done , and is very hurtful.I don’t respect her because she treats me poorly it’s that simple really.I have respected her ,no longer that’s for sure ,how could I? I respected her boundaries all I asked was no lying,cheating etc ... .the lying just keeps going and going.I also know what she’s like when drunk it’s very dangerous for herself but it’s her choice.
To sum it up I can’t be with a woman who is constantly clubbing it upnand getting home the next day ,if I wanted to date a 20 year old I would have tried .She said she was done with that life she lied and amplified it,it’s her way to cope with her issues ok then it’s no problem but “shawn doesn’t want to be part of it anymore”. I believe I’m worth more to myself and I think I can offer more to someone who wants it and shows as much .Maybe it’s her age ,maybe it’s her looks ,maybe it’s because she’s danaged who knows the real reason? Only her ... .but I’m at a point where it doesn’t matter to me anymore.In a very selfish manner ,I’m not well skip not at all .Im anxious again,sad,depressed, my boundaries have been crossed and my self respect tested to its limit.I can’t allow myself be disrespected and not walk the walk anymore I need to make a stand for myself.Not for her or the love I have for her,not her kids ,family friends ,but for me as a human being.I need to walk away .Since we are not talking since the event when’s a better time than now.I need to stop fearing the huge pain I’ll feel and walk through that darkness to get out of this haunted house.I gotta do it for me man ,I’m broken

Shawn,

I feel for you.

its possible she has an addiction of some sort.
Not piling on that she is a bad person.

Sometimes we need to lead by example.
You guys have been thru a lot.!

You seem to be the one who is the leader.
I know you want a partner,  people w BPD need a partner who will model stability, certainty, level emotions, sanity, many things.  You have to be mentally agile.
Amother thing, you have to be able to do is not focus on them, radical acceptance; get yourself excellent self care! Its a tall order.  None of us get it all right.   How come therapists who work w BPD patients, those therapists need to go in to therapy.
Lets face it, each of us who are aware of what we are getting ourselves in to, or got ourselves in to, know we are dealing w a serious mentally ill person.

Imagine dating a blind woman.  You fall in love.
There would be many things the two of you would have to deal w because of her blindness... .
You wouldnt be mad, disappointed in her, lets say, if she stumbles and falls, or she rides the wrong bus to the end of the line, on and on it goes, because of what she is dealing w.  Its a daily deal.

I married a "normal" man, he turned out to be a work aholic.  He spent zero time w me and our kids, he was selfish.  We divorced after 17 yrs, that was 17 yrs ago... .Long story, we have no guarantees. 

For me it comes down to my heart, working on me, not judging anyone, especially my pw BPD.
Its a tall order.  There are no guidelines to this stuff.
Its a mystery.  I read a lot on this topic, BPD, and relationships in general.  The best i can do is have an excellent relationship with myself.  Take excellent self care.  Have unconditional love.Have an excellent relationship w my higher power, God, and do my best.  Know that i fall short.  Know that i ask for forgiveness of those i have wronged.

What the other person does, is, and has, is beyond my control.

I cant be right and happy at the same time.

Julu thank you for those words .You are correct that I need to be someone strong and the leader for someone like her .But I also know  even with BPD ,she’s aware of what she is doing.She can chose it’s just I incredibly hard but it’s a choice .With that said it’s also a choice for me as well.I feel like I’m dying as an individual and I’m not exaggerating this in anyway.I won’t sacrifice all my family & friends for her and they want me back (the real shawn) and you know what? So do I .I feel incomplete, and I literally feel like I’m dying I’m very serious .

Shawn,

You most likely are like me, co d.
No one can make me happy, sad, depressed.
No one can make these horrible ways i have been, walking dead, almost losing my job.

Believe it or not, its not an accident each of us met this one special person.

They show us, if you will, what is lacking in us.
How come i let this other person ruon my day, week, month,etc.

Fact is, no one can do that.
To be in this r/s i have to be strong, deal w my EGO, gather supportive, non judgemental friends, not yes people, its A TALL ORDER.

How come pwBPD have so few long term r/s.

There are not many people in this world who can shuck their ego, not judge, take what they like (the good times) leave the rest(the bad times)

My key advice: get to an al anon meeting, preferably one for men, if you could.  Try 6 meetings.  Keep going.  Go for six months, do the steps, find a path, your healing, its about getting down to cause and conditions of my life.  I cannot point any fingers at any other human being.

Just do it Shawn.  Even if it makes no sense to you.  Its free. Or one dollar.

What each of us is dealing with, is a special situation.  I need people in my life who do not judge!  End of sentence.

My friend.

j

Sorry to hear that there is so much ongoing heartbreak with your girlfriend. I am going to throw something out there that may or may not be helpful for your healing and to do what is best for you. I will not be offended in any way if you tell me that this is not helpful.
What helps us get through hard times is how we are wired emotionally: how we respond rather than react to difficult emotional circumstances, and how we distinguish our feelings from others. In relationships, we take on the feelings of the person we are with: How much we allow our partner to dump their uncomfortable feelings on to us is an indication of our emotional health. To be able to deal with emotions in a healthy way, it helps to spend time nearly every day (around 45 minutes) fully present in our body feeling our body sensations, and observing the feelings as they come and go. No feeling will stay for too long, if it is fully observed and processed. Jon Cabot Zinn and Kristen Neff have both developed programs that teach daily mindfulness meditation that are known for helping people heal from emotional and physical pain. I admire  your courage in how you seem to be doing everything to find the answers to your challenges, and think these are incredible resources to seek out. I did a summer long meditation course based on Kristen Neff's work, and I learned the practice of quietly observing my feelings, thoughts, and body sensations for about 45 minutes a day, and I now use this practice to process difficult emotions before I become extremely upset. Any way just my experience, and maybe not relevant for you. Keep us posted on how you are doing. Many of us on this site really admire all the hard work you have done so far, and like many of us, you seem to realize that it takes time and lots of willingness to look at the hurt for things to change for the better. Take care!

I will definitely look into that meditation ,I will need all the tools I can get to heal myself .I know I’m but a shell of who I used to be ,I’ll have to rebuild parts of that are broken.I don’t want to be a bitter person you see on those redpill forums where they use woman for sex and can’t bond anymore on a human level because of the pain they had done to them.Id like to believe you can still be a decent person without being clingy or needy and have a woman appreciate you back? There is a big difference between controlling someone (or trying to) and giving them their space and life with only respect coming back the other way ,yeah know?

Glad to hear you are interested in meditation. You can find courses that are based on Kristen Neff's work and Jon Cabot Zinn's work. Also, both of them have written books that are sold on Amazon.com.
You also might look into EMDR therapy. I did it, and it helped me to learn to stay present which was something I did not seem to be able to do before. I was left in the crib most of the day as a baby, and spent most of my life as a prisoner of run away emotions. The EMDR therapist forced me to stay present and it was hell on wheels at first because it was so uncomfortable, and the therapy really changed my life. I did the meditation course after I completed EMDR.
We are rooting for you. Keep us posted.

This isn't much of a lie if she outed herself with a video. It sounds like she didn't think she was treating you badly... .but knew you would be worried about her cheating... .

Plans change. She was on her time. There is a huge festival in your area.  Maybe a friend called with an extra ticket. Maybe she doesn't feel she needs your permission to hang out with her friends on her time. I know that many times I have plans and they change at the last minute. I was dressed for church this morning and in the car when I encountered a construction detour.  I got off the exit, changed my plans, and then I was out to lunch with friends.

Is this really about all about her breaking boundaries?  It seems a lot deeper than that.


At any slight, you are on the Deatching page and deeply upeset.  This may be hard to hear, but you really haven't respected her. For 6 months you have told everyone in your orbit (family, friends, bpdfamily, and yourself) that she is lying, cheating, garbage.  You have made it clear to your family and friends that she doesn't deserve to be respected by them either. You poor mom wants to call her and say "don't hurt my boy". To be truthful, I have followed your story and I don't anything positive about her either other than young and good looking.

Is she a monster? Or is this a relationship of two incompatible life style?

For whatever reason, valid or not, you don't respect her, and as you know, that is a big part of loving someone. If you don't respect, everything is going to be a problem.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one skip .I see a 30 year old woman that needs to party to the extreme every weekend or two with single woman 5-6 years younger never asking her bf to participate (probably a good reason to it).If you follow any redpill forums there are so many red flags it’s retarded.Its called being disrespectful to your partner something I would never put myself at risk of doing because I respect her . You can take or leave that ,it’s two opinions which will never meet on the same street ,are you right or am I right ? I don’t think either one can be right or wrong here ,it just comes down to personality and self worth.I believe I’m worth more than this and deserve better , that’s just my business and my mentality.Getting so.blitzed you don’t know who or what your doing anymore then popped in a place full of horney men= disaster waiting to happen you’d have to be either blind or dumb not to see this.

What are we disagreeing about? 



Maybe you aren't giving her the "Red Pill" treatment, but telling your family and your friends she's a that cheater, liar, and garbage is turning all of them against her. A few weeks ago you were saying that she was sleeping with two guys.

All I am Shaun is that the walls are starting to cave in... .the path you two are on does not have a very positive prognosis.

I told my friends and family exactly what she does ,for them to come to the conclusion she’s a spoiled child says a lot.As for changing plans I will explain to you what I explained to her given it doesn’t seem to be getting through .A human being can change their plans a million times ,it affects nobody but them who cares .When plans include someone else example: I invite you skip to go hunting Saturday,you clear your schedule and agree.Saturday comes around and I call you around noon when I wake up saying “ sorry I’m so hung over I can’t go “, all the while you were waiting around for me to at least call that morning to explain what the heck was going on... .= disrespecting you plain and simple.This is what she does every time , not a cancelling 2-3 days in advance no, literally she’s already late for the event . if that is acceptable to you as behavior  , we will never see eye to eye on this subject.
 As for her being with her two ex boyfriends while me and her weren’t together = true .She also did cheat on me in January but took two months to confirm so that’s also true. The stories I tell my family and friends are not exaggerated made up stories in any way just now I leave my anger out of it.A lot of times I tell these stories to test my own sanity, wondering “am I over reacting maybe ,let’s see what someone else says “.

She isn’t a picnic , neither am I , but I am loyal, and am respectful.I don’t test boundaries like an adolescent child because I don’t have a mental disorder so I think properly like an adult.The only thing I need to work on is regulating my emotional responses to her sxxt test , by not getting angry and not getting distant.Another fatal problem I do is I keep coming back with logic to argue and honestly it’s futile to do so .Normal tactics don’t work with BPD , so doing anything alpha male/beta male/ redpill/ bluepill nothing works with woman or men with this disorder.Being validating when they have emotional ups and downs is doable ,when they test your boundaries constantly not so easy to deal with.

Shaun, I'm trying to help you stay centered so that you don't do self defeating things. You need that, right? When things get off-center, you often push then further offcenter rather than pull them back in. You are doing better at this, but there is still a long way to go. Fair?

This situation on Saturday, from what I understand from you, does not involve all these things you mention above (cheating, lying, or canceling dates). She said she was going to visit her father and later told you she was at local music festival at 4 in the afternoon and having a good time (intoxicated) and loves you (heart).

The part that upsets you most is that she parties and doesn't include you. It also bothers you that she get intoxicated when out with the girls and you feel she is vulnerable to a sexual misadventure.

Is this accurate?

There are a few things that bother me about Saturday . 1:she said she was going to see her father and grandmother with her kids which was a lie.2: she sends me a video at 4pm already drunk at a concert that lasts till 1:00am ,so yes she’s placed herself in a vulnerable as she he’s drunk she gets very friendly.3: of course it bothers me that all her “happiest” moments are when she’s totally wasted on booze and drugs and she picks her worst friends to do this leaving out me and her good friends .4: it also bothers me she tosses her children off all the time to do these things then complains she’s not a good mother.Then I gotta listen to her telling me how upsetting it is to see their fathers and their gf’s putting up pictures of them with her kids having fun as a family unit.Her favorite phrase “ geez get your own kids” like they were property.The damage she is doing to them ,she can’t see.All day Sunday I know she was at home hung over heavy , probably snapping at them like usual cuz mommy’s sick and has a headache stop making noise ( seen this too often).

So it’s very disappointing when someone meets up with you a month ago and says she’s done with that life ,wants a family  and normal life, and wants to respect you then craps all over everything and does the opposite in effect ( changed nothing). All I really want to do is shake her and say (grow the f... .k up you stupid child ,and cut the poor me act you aren’t 8 years old anymore)!  But obviously I haven’t done that , and when her children are in the house with you wanting your attention because they know you will give it to them and mommy gets mad, it’s fustrating to be involved because (you know what’s right) and kids come first ,they have to , they need to , or they will grow up seeking attention just like who?  Well we all know that answer.

Me not going to a concert is just fine I did stuff with my friends and had fun, me seeing her drunk 1 hr into the concert and dumping her kids all after giving me some BS story , strikes a chord with me not easily overcome .

Not defending her, but is it possible at she had every intention of visiting the father and then plans changed? Or she saw her father and then went to the concert?

... .and she told you about it via her text?

If either of those were the case, would she be lying?

Shawn,

Again my heart goes out to you.
I have shared what i am learning.
Another thing about the spiritual path, is i gain nothing by judging others.
There is no solution in the problem.

If she is always wrong, that is your view.
The lens you are looking thru.

I am not trying to be harsh, just sharing.
And take what you like, leave the rest.

Her father lives  3 hours away (back in forth 3 hours total) I left her place at 1030 Saturday .Her son was sleeping and she had to pick up the other one so just by time frame alone ,no she never intended on going to see her father.She didn’t lie about being at  concert she send me the video so it was no cover up.Im thinking my disappointment here really stems from me dating someone I thought and was made out to think was mature and in the long run is highly immature.I think that’s the simplest way this can be put.Its not one thing , it’s just an ensemble  of everything ,these moments like Saturday just kick it into high gear but it all ends up being the same thing.Shes still in teenager mode , she shows no signs of growing out of it and has no will (besides worthless words) to change .Things like her mother telling me she’s been a huge supporter of me in private all add up to her almost begging I work out and change her daughter... .I can’t change nor try this woman it’s not my job or place .Can I accept this constant behavior And is it what I want from a woman in the first place ? All the answers lead to absolutely NO.I want someone that wants to have fun with me sometimes ,who has left the party life for a more serious venture .Somwknw who goes out with her friends but doesn’t put at risk herself , and has friends with similar status in life not 5-6 years younger and single .

Understood.

This is where I was coming from when I said that you don't respect her . I didn't mean that you are rude or abusive. I meant that as a partner you don't respect what she stands for. When something goes wrong, the conversation quickly goes to the words liar, cheater, bad mothers, broken.

If there was respect, you would give her the benefit of the doubt to find out what happened without pressure. You would wonder what it is that you're doing that makes her feel she can't be honest with you. You would talk to her about it not being a good "way" for you two and ask her what she needs. You would tell her what you need. You would resolve it because you both respect each other and the relationship. Or you would not resolve it and look for other ways to live with that.

My point is that this is ideally what you would want.

Please take all my comments as neutral - I am not suggesting you go forward or stop - I am suggesting that the love/respect that you talk about comes from the relationship leader.  You know that she is afraid to say things to you because you come down hard on her. Part of this is on you; part on her. She wants to do things you don't want her to do. This is a big problem on both sides.

As for family/friends, they advise us based on what we tell them.  My mom always blames the girlfriend - I often have to say - hey mom, I had a hand in this mess, too.

Does this make sense?

This is wrong on a lot of sides.

Shawn,

Whether you decide to continue your relationship or not is, of course, up to you.  However I have a little bit of an issue with the subject 'Well I tried'. 

You fretted for a week about your meeting with her last week Wednesday and it sounds like it went well.  Then she has one hiccup and things are off again.

It sounds like in her previous life she had some destructive habits and it takes time for people to change.  Change comes when someone has firstly a reason to change (ostensibly, or possibly, a supportive mate and nurturing relationship).  Secondly, it takes time and when trying to learn new constructive habits it is important to have support.

Dream Come True had a drinking problem and when she drank she would put herself into dangerous situations.  Over months I spoke with her about this behavior.  Finally, I said 'I am afraid when you drink you forget about us'.  She got quite angry --but the next day she said I won't drink anymore.  We didn't -we were dry for the last 6 months we were together.  Personality disorders and drugs of any kind is a volatile mixture.

I mentioned in my previous posts if you are going to be in a relationship with someone suffering from BPD you will need patients and a lot of it.  You will need to lead by example I.e. keeping your temper in check.   You will need to help her feel safe enough to try to let her old habits go. 

Dream Come True's drinking and deviant behavior was not directed at me -she was trying to get through her daily maelstrom of emotions, the voices, the work pressure, depression, distorted self image and so on.  It wasn't about me at all -it wasn't about us.  It had been part of her identity! I was asking her to change the way she saw herself by no longer being the party girl and this is a big ask -she did it for us.

Her family was incredibly supportive and accepting of me -they didn't want me to 'fix' her, they wanted her to be safe and loved.

I will repeat another thing I wrote to you last week.  My therapist told me a relationship with someone afflicted with BPD can be a magical experience -but it is a high risk venture requiring a lot of work and therapy. 

I write this post because when someone says 'Well I tried' and really means 'Well... .I quit' there is room for doubt and regret in the coming months.  From what I have read you gave it a week and with the first transgression cut and run.  Ironically, your reaction is approaching splitting -one of the scariest traits of BPD in my opinion.

Take a lot of deep breaths and try to figure out what it is you really want and need.

--None of this is easy.  In the moment it is frightening -I remember vividly.


Wicker Man

whats the age difference between the two of you?

I fear what I want I can’t have, mostly because I don’t believe I have it in me to try.What I mean by this is I just want to be respected and have less of the party girl and more time with her and her with her family doing what 30 year olds do. But it’s clear that’s not what she wants and honestly that’s ok to be honest because being that way isn’t a crime .Why she chooses to be in a relationship is in itself a problem but I think her certain narcissistic traits forbid her from being “alone”.All in all I don’t believe I have the patience to deal with this.I feel like I have to forget who I am to be with her , and it makes me feel empty if not stupid .I don’t think feeling of lesser character will help me in the long run with her , she was attracted to my strong go getter attitude, if that part of me dies then her attraction will also die .Its a conundrum in itself, don’t change who I am lose her , do change who I am lose her .Dont do either and try to change her. Lose her .Wait ( hope) she changes  herself , I end up a shell of a man and lose her .If I succeed by miracle and wait till she changes ,lose everyone else in my entourage , then become dependant on her , lose her .

11 years

Have you literally sat down in a calm moment and spoken about what you both might like the future to look like?

E.g. When you drink too much I am worried for us.

I truly am sorry you are going through such a trying time.  It brings back very vivid memories for me.  However, in a way I wish I had had the luxury of trying again  and I suppose I am offering my two cents for this very reason. 

I am not judging and certainly not offering any guidance as to whether you two are right for each other —but if you walk away from this it would be nice for you to know in your heart you did the right thing for you.


Wicker Man

i dont hear anyone suggesting this, shawn.

i hear the idea of understanding her perspective (not jumping to conclusions and reacting to feelings), developing and practicing patience, and leading. the long game.


the age difference is significant here; i am in my 30s as are my close friends, and we all do these things. im not sure why you cant have some of both, but it really requires an approach that involves communication, building trust, and leading things in that direction, an approach like Skip and Wicker Man described. youve been back together what, a month? of course youre both trending back toward your natural devices. the honeymoon is on its last legs; it takes work (not "hope she changes while i become a shell") for things to develop beyond that.

its going to take that approach with your friends and family too, shawn. theres a drama triangle to spot there, and of course theyre taking your side, as friends and family are prone to do, especially based on what youve told them. theres damage recovery to do there, and that wont go away over night.

the point im making here is not stay or go, but to try to see things beyond these black and white lens.

The change members are encouraging to make is to understand human nature better, become more emotionally intelligent and self-aware and less emotionally volatile and rigid.

This is not "lessor character" its far greater character.  Many of us are on this quest to grow and learn with you.

Look back on this whole thing.

She got cold feet an Christmas.
You didn't have the skills to handle that an it became a huge, months long, problem.
You have better skills now. Faced with that same situation, you would have better outcomes.

Pregnancy
You were oblivious to the emotional crisis that she was going through
You have better skills now. Faced with that same situation, you would have better outcomes.

This change is not a bad thing. Embrace it.


once removed point is really important - she isn't a narcissistic broken garbage because she like a party with the girls - she's a 30 something who enjoys doing this.

Maybe it's not for you.

When you connect with someone you have to fit your lives together - not ask them to be who you want them to be.   

Skip


PS: Did she really sleep with 4 men (including yourself) since January?

I am wondering if you would be willing to write us a list of everything you want and need to have in a relationship. I am talking about relationships in general, and not this one in particular. I am asking you to do this, so maybe we can help you to see more clearly what it is you are seeking. I firmly believe, that when you know what you want and are confident showing that, you will come close to getting it, as long as your wants and needs are realistic, and you are prepared to do what it takes to get your wants and needs met in a present or future relationship.

Well I have a bigger favor than usual to ask of everyone here .If you were in my shoes exactly now ,what would you do? We are talking again no problems ,I’ll be seeing her Wednesday and we are going up let’s for the weekend .

My list of what I want in a relationship:

Loyalty,respect,a friend and a lover,someone who wants to spend “some” time with me . That’s it and those are all equal not in a particular order

Go, have fun, create a possibility,
live in the present;  enjoy the now.

Most if not all my issues w my pwBPD,
are just that, my issues... .   it looks like its him.  It really does.

be a tree, not a statue... .

It sounds like what you want in a relationship is pretty simple:  "Loyalty,respect,a friend and a lover,someone who wants to 'spend' some time with me." What you have described fits the description of what most of us would like to have in a relationship which is connection, respect for our feelings, someone who is a best friend, someone who is there for us in the best and worst of times, a caring lover, and truly enjoys our company.
What are your deal breakers? In other words, what are the red flags that there is never any possibility of even dating or beginning a relationship, or this relationship has to end right now and there is no possibility of reconciliation?

this is an inherently complicated question, because even in your shoes, you and i may have different values, perspectives, desires, tolerance, motivations, personalities... .

thats not to dodge your question. its to tell you that its not all about right or wrong ways to handle this, but that im going to try to answer your question generally, and from the perspective of someone who loves my partner and is genuinely committed to and investing in making it work. youre conflicted in that, at least when challenges arise and the pressure increases. committing to one path or another is the start.

to start with, id let go of this recent incident. i personally dont see it as a big deal, disrespectful, or a lie. having said that, i understand why you do, and that it unnerves you to be told one thing then see another, and i can relate to that. i see that issue as both a matter of your own perspective (right or wrong) and one of, long term, getting on the same page with my partner; communicating, expressing our wants and needs, expectations, etc.


i would begin by modeling those things, and doing/giving them myself. that, to me, is leading. i would place reasonable expectations on how long that takes to become established between the two of you. as i said earlier, the honeymoon is kind of on its last legs, and thats where things take work... .from my view, the two of you havent long term sustained a relationship beyond the honeymoon phases. i would think 2-3 months is a reasonable amount of time to see some level of progress in terms of starting to get on the same page. there will be more hurdles for the two of you to overcome as a team.

next, when my partner reflected those things back to me, i would use a whole lot of positive reinforcement. id let her know i appreciate this or that, i like/love when she does this or that, thank her for this or that, tell her i feel more connected when she does this or that (i think one opportunity to do this was when she let you know where she was and what she was up to... .i think she was trying to keep things upfront). and id give it back consistently.

if i were you, as far as actually solving conflict goes, id not involve friends or family (they will throw up their hands) for now, id lean on advice and support here when conflict arises, and id be diving into the lessons to the right of the board, like the communication tools... .we also have a lesson on surviving confrontation and disrespect  . id do all the above before i tried to state what i dont like, want to change, what she can do about it, that sort of thing. those are certainly appropriate discussions for a couple to have, but id wait until i and my relationship are on more stable ground.

Once Removed is right.  No one should give you guidance as to whether you should stay or go. 
If someone does offer you a concrete 'stay or go' -run from that person.  No one but you has truly walked a mile in your shoes.  All we can do is offer you a mirror with which to observe yourself.  The more opaque the mirror the better.

Once Removed said
Presenting your concerns about her behavior should not constitute an intervention on your part -a laundry list to be presented all at once.  A relationship is a journey -a long game.  Build a foundation and then over time you can try to help her into a normalized relationship.  Love has a magically curative effect.  Stability is one of the best medicines.

Patience, understanding, respect, compassion -these are all two way streets.  Lead by example.

Patience is a virtue, understanding is diabolically hard, respect must be earned and compassion is the glue that holds everything together. 

The honeymoon phase of a relationship (6-18 months) is the skittles and beer -the salad days.  Once this ends the work begins - ideally with the memory of the honeymoon period becoming a marriage map you can look back upon when things get tough. 

Here one BPD Family the honeymoon phase is often referred to as the idealization phase -because with BPD when the honeymoon ends devaluation can come.  It is my observation relationships with someone afflicted with BPD are 'higher stake' relationships.
 
The highs are stellar and the lows can be pretty dark (I smiled as I wrote that).  This is why I keep mentioning patience.  When she has a 'transgression', which we all do, but people with BPD seem to do it better... .it is up to their loved one (you) to have compassion (glue), understanding (ugh hard) and respect for their relationship as an institution and overcome the transgression.

If you dysregulate when she does you will end up in a very sharp and short negative spiral.  I.e. dissolution.

I mentioned Dream Come True's drinking -she was putting herself into a physically dangerous situation with a very dangerous man.  It took every ounce of my being to be even keeled, supportive and help her extinguish this behavior.  I knew if I tried to fight fire with fire I would have been out gunned.  She could be 300 pounds of rage in a 90 pound package.  With this as my supposition I never raised my voice to her in fact the louder she got the quieter I spoke.

As far as your friend wanting to spend time with you... .Are you fun to be around or is it always sturm and drang?  Do you make her feel safe and loved? 

The only way for you to be fun to be around is if you are able to relax --I keep saying deep breaths.  I mean this literally and figuratively.  Hell... .Dream Come True started making fun of me for taking deep breaths.  She quickly learned it meant she was making me crazy and it became a mechanism for our bonding.  At one point I took a deep breath and she went from raging to laughing at me or better said at us.

If you are going to continue in this relationship you have to remember she is a special person and you have to accept all of her -love all of her. 

To quote Raising Arizona "Well... .it ain't "Ozzie and Harriet."


Wicker Man

The problems are still there, Shawn.

You are experiencing disproportionate emotional reactions to the normal ebbs and flows of a relationship that are significant enough that your mom wants to call your girlfriend and your friend say you look like a wreck. This is a big deal.

You and your girlfriend have different values and priorities and there is conflict over value clashes that you are not able to resolve. Yes, you can bend her arm and get her to promise not to be herself, and she can try to hide her real self, but it pops out and then there is a crisis. You react at extreme levels. She is afraid to tell you or confront you, so she is developing "safe tactics" (like sending you a video) so that she can be herself and not chastised for it.

You are attracted to her physically/sexually and she likes your stability, but the two of you can't really cope with each other. There is no meeting of the minds. Each of your family units/social circles question the health of the relationship.

We have a saying here that "nothing changes without changes" which means if we want things to be better, we have to change what we are doing. You seemed locked into some of Red Pill ideology about relationship and the roles of men and women. You are fearful of letting go of the very things that cause you pain. And you see it as unnecessarily because the problems mostly lie with her.  In this sense, you are battling with yourself as much as her.

So I don't think the question is as much about whether you should continue in your relationship or not, as much as it is, whether you get in touch with a deeper value system and use it to shape yourself and your choices in life.

While you think she is the problem, all of the struggles you face are from things and thoughts that you can change.