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Well turns out the last three days I spent it with my gf.I was supposed to spend it alone to clear my thoughts but she wanted to spend time together.I rented a cabin and we just chilled all weekend doing a lot of site seeing and other activities.She seemed happy and in a good mood with me minus some emotional stuff about ppl at work thinking she’s this and that etc etc.Id say certain traits of BPD are mild in her some heavy.She still brings up the fact I don’t seem 100% sure of her but I managed to answer that question where she understood the difference between taking time to make sure things are going well VS me “testing” her.All in all I still had fun but still tread cautiously and I try not to get too emotionally connected “deeper relationship feeling” and keep it into a more let’s just have fun temperament .Ive take to the ,she’s not yours it’s just your turn “ philosophy for now.Emotionally investing beyond just have her as a fun gf is dangerous if not outright foolish .

Red Pill life philosophies are interesting, Shawn. You seem committed and this cult lifestyle and it is a choice each of us makes. I respect your right to choose.

Love is fleeting  Shakespeare penned in Hamlet that "love is fleeting". There is much written about the fragility of love and of life. The point of all of this is nothing lasts forever and we should enjoy and cherish the time we have. I'm sure you have lost people in your life that were dear and you can look back and say, I wish I had appreciated what I had at the time more than I did. We all do.

The Red Pill philosophy has corrupted this idea into something more alog the lines of love is fleeting so don't bother, see women as a temporary sex objects and nothing more. And while the idea of dealing with relationships on this level may work on some levels, this is coping for people with fear of abandonment, fear of vulnerability. This is largely how a person with BPD protects themselves... .they stay at arms length from vulnerability. If they feel too vulnerable, it's so threatening that they build a safety net -  "plates" would be exactly that.

I want to share this thought. You're in your 40's and you can operate in this arena and with women who will accept this, but you might find yourself in your 50's and struggling to find a healthy women to spend your life with and a lack of skills to attract her.  The pool of singles grows more difficult with age.

Anyway, not a decision you need to make now.

From the Red Pill site:

Actually the redpill theory can be seen two ways. 1: fear of abandonment seems extreme but I see your point 2: Actually seeing the scientific side of how woman think. If you look at the genetic inbuilt characteristics of woman and how they behave , redpill simply defined these traits on paper.Nevermind BPD let’s push that aside one minute, woman are emotional , sensual, and don’t base much on logical terms because that’s their genetic make up .Men love them this way but have a hard time accepting this unfortunately and it’s not woman to blame .Woman want strong , secure (in themselves ) ,confident men who will lead.They want to be lead , it doesn’t mean they want to give up their jobs or routine of being independent,but they want a strong leader presence it’s in breed into their genetic code.Here is the big difference today that males don’t seem to grasp .
Men today are still wired in the 1940-50 mentality where they believe being a provider (house,food, money ) is enough to keep a woman which is false.Woman can do that very much for themselves nowadays because woman’s rights have come a long way since those days .Woman still want those things but in complement to their own independence.Woman especially when ovulating will be able to sniff out the stronger (let’s call it alpha ) male in the room and be attracted to him physically.She will pick up on the stronger character,more calm level headed emotionally stable man with good physical attributes (proven fact) .It doesn’t mean she will cheat on her husband /bf but the chances are there regardless.Only thing redpill teaches is try being that man .Be in shape,be controlled emotionally, be strong willed and always improve yourself .Unfortunately yes they do say not to get too attached emotionally with a woman simply because they are unstable and when you level out to attract them men tend “once hooked” to stop the growth in themselves (huge mistake).Men should be just as happy alone as with his woman ,not because of her.If a man keeps growing and improving himself it’s a win for himself first, and whatever woman he allows next to him gets to profit off an ever improving individual.70% of divorces come from the woman ,why? Hypergamy, why? Because it’s inbuilt in woman’s coding.So instead of getting bitter about how woman work, I tend to enjoy them for what they are but also never really invest too much for all the reasons above and more.

Adding BPD to the picture amplifies pretty much every normal woman’s emotional actions by x100.It sure doesn’t mean we can’t have or love them ,if anything it’s why draws many men to them.For the sake of this relationship I’ve decided to pull back much more emotionally and you know what? It’s working , and it’s working very well.My gf from a physical attraction is an easy 8.5-9 on 10.She is used to men running to her or licking her feet .I fell into this trap the first time ,up to about 1.5 months ago .But after a month being alone ,going to therapy ,reading up on BPD,redpill,alpha males and this list goes on.I came to the conclusion, yeah she’s pretty, yes she’s fun, but I’m a  Pretty good prize myself .Im a fit 40 year old ,lift weights,box,run, eat well.High paying job, good with money, little debt , good investments, and now I have much more control that I ever had on my emotions.I have to think hourly on how I react emotionally,always training thinking of better calmer ways to react ,it’s on going process to change myself .

In final a lot of redpill stuff echos a lot of what I learnt hear.Many a time you and once removed said I had to be the emotional leader and strength in the relationship.What I decided to do was instead of training myself to react calm and cool when she went off on an emotional rant , I said to myself ... .: why not train yourself to always be calm and collected always .Then if she triggers you won’t have to flip to calm guy , you are aleady calm guy. Also if I’m more calm she should trigger less.I can see already my calm assertiveness is working and drawing her closer.She tried many tests this past weekend and each one failed and she seemed almost happier every time .When she spoke about her ex I never even faltered once emotionally and simply said , your a grown woman mother of two ,I’m confident you know what’s best for you and your boys , kissed her forehead and made myself food on the bbq.She got little emotions that were the bad ones or unstable ones.When intimate together she got the nice ones almost like a reward system .Good to me,good right back, bad to be or testing me , zero reactions ,nada nothing just strong shawn.She said to me , you went quiet yesterday when I said those things to you why? I simply answered, I didn’t  see the value of taking my time to bother with what doesn’t concern me to be honest.Then I said how many eggs you want for breakfast and could you make the coffee babe .How did that end? In the bedroom two hours later with not a word about it anymore. She triggers a lot on small stuff and often flips it around along the lines of , why do we keep having these discussions they make me sad ( every time she will bring them up and go on and on) then flip it back on me.
This routine of hers I can see is subconscious and I’ll listen to her speech and sympathize when required but mainly I shrug it off.As most people know individuals with BPD have an emotional maturity of a child and what do you do when a child is trying to annoy or get a reaction out of you? Ignore them .When they come back to normal and behave , you reward them with your time .When they misbehave you do the opposite.Children as much as woman even with BPD require a parent to partner to be calm and assertive it’s the whole reason the s :cursing: test you constantly making sure you are in charge .

Shawnlam,

The "RedPill" nonsense you're swallowing is not serving you. No man can have a healthy, fulfilling relationship with a woman believing as you believe that woman are children, that they want an "alpha" male to lead them, that when they have emotional needs they are sh**testing you. I speak as a woman, and what's more, I'm a woman who dates both men and women. You can't be a true PARTNER if you're busy trying to "lead" while staying emotionally disconnected.
 
I see a lot of immaturity and projection coming off you in these posts. Who is sh**ttesting who when you demand that your girlfriend give up clubbing because you don't like it and don't think it's appropriate for a 30 year old? Ultimately, you admit you're scared she'll give in to all the "horny men" in the club. This is about your insecurity, not hers. (I understand she's been unfaithful in the past.)

Your desire to lead, control, and keep a woman is not attractive. I highly recommend you rethink this strategy. That RedPill philosophies are being discussed on this board makes me feel, as a woman, disrespected here and less willing to engage. 

The redpill philosophy is 98% about a man better himself to be more attractive and not stagnant or complacent with himself .Its the complete opposite of “blaming woman” or “ hating woman” that a lot of people do when things don’t go their way.It is also about understanding how most woman think , most woman don’t like reading about how they are genetically inclined to act a certain way but it is what it is .There is an equal portion on the men side on how we instinctively act as well that most men don’t want to read or swallow but reality is what it is.As for the clubbing think yeah I’d safely admit that was purely my insecurity at work there which is why I’m on a constant focus on how I react VS how I should react ,life’s a long journey and I’m gonna make mistakes along the way .As for my present mindset, I’ve never felt more secure and centered as I do now.I can enjoy being with my gf much easier and safer with a hell of a lot less drama than previous me for multiple reasons.Yes one of them is the less emotional attachment for sure , I focus much more on myself than anything else lately .Just because one focuses on ones self preservation doesn’t mean I’m being mean to her or not caring, it just means she’s not my focus like before I’m making myself happy.I make myself happy , she’s welcome to come along with the ride but she’s not the main content.We has more fun this way than before , I won’t argue how you feel towards redpill , that’s all up to how you see life.Redpill isn’t about BPD either , it’s about how I chose to continue in my life now , having a relationship with a young woman with BPD kicked me into some redpill aspects as well as alpha male mindsets why? Because I made all the epic failures most men do at the beginning of this relationship, neediness,clingy , controlling, entitlement, and this list goes on.I learnt frankly two important things 1: focus and better yourself for YOU and people will follow those that don’t need not 2: understanding of how most woman are wired to think (not all as you’ve started but Most especially those woman of today who are much more free thinking ,self sufficient,and have different requirements than let’s say my fathers generation or prior ).

So no this post wasn’t about promoting redpill , it was skip asking me how it was going and I answered .Redpill /alpha male tactics have changed me to feel better , and frankly from what I’m seeing my present gf who has BPD traits sees a much easier/confident  version of a man than the previous one.There will be slip ups for sure on my end , changing ones self takes years especially when untraining and retraining  oneself.Meditation,working out,reading ,eating well are the minimum requirements for me today.Its a matter of being a happy /confident person that my gf wants to be around ,or any future woman if thisnmay not work.You generally attract what you project but not always , hopefully she will see a stability and confidence she would like to have in her life beside her ... .if not she’s free to go and I can continue my journey

I've read a couple of the books out of curiosity, perused some of the websites. If you're able to take something positive from the RP philosophies and disregard the toxic parts, great. But be careful, a great deal is blatantly misogynist. Surely there are better ways to learn confidence and to unlearn clinginess without shooting down and generalizing an entire gender.

Yeah I can agree not 100% of everything is good for sure , I tend to take the better parts that suit me.For example I can’t be the type of guy who has a gf and sleeps around like a lot of RP stuff.Im a loyal guy so I have my limits on stuff.

the ol "ill keep a foot out the door and only take the good stuff so i cant get hurt" routine  :(


did you know that the "alpha male" stuff came from research on wolves, in packs? turns out the researcher realized he wasnt watching pack behavior, he was observing parents and cubs. when he realized this, he tried to have the research he had published removed from the public and renounced all of his work. for some reason, someone decided to stretch this to apply to human beings with all of their complexities.

im not trying to debate the red pill philosophy with you shawn, just a quick fact check. what i want to tell you is that that "playbook for people with fear of abandonment" is exactly what brought me here. id been unlucky in love, worn my heart on my sleeve, over pursued, even been the lap dog type in at least one relationship, and like other men (i was 18-21) i eventually learned that its true, none of those things are healthy or attractive. so i adopted an "i dont give a damn" attitude, and chose my ex, who i thought seemed "dangerous, if not outright foolish", kept a foot out the door, and ultimately i got my heart handed to me.

the insidious thing about it is that it really doesnt protect you from pain, it ensures it. its an illusion of control that can feel comforting for a while, heck, she might even find it attractive on a certain level, for a time.


dating someone with a strategy of avoiding becoming invested, having an attitude that says i dont care what you say or do unless its the stuff i like, is not security in yourself, and its not emotional leading or strength. its not the skills that will connect you with your partner, or healthy, secure women. it will attract emotionally immature partners because its an emotionally immature attitude and strategy.

what id be remiss in not warning you about is that this is not a healthy strategy for raising children, let alone a relationship. its interesting that you compare a romantic partner to an immature child, because established, credible research says we mate with our emotional equals.


how do you think she will react to this when she wants to get married, if she gets pregnant, if she needs to lean on you for support, if she wants to share her dreams with you, if she wants to connect with you emotionally?

thing is, your partner is looking for security from you, in you, shes said so. if youre not secure in this, she wont be either, and the entire relationship will swing between avoidant/insecure coping from you both, as it has been. thats why youre being tested. youre just giving her a different result, and that will be fun, alluring, until it isnt.

what she will "sniff out", is that this isnt relationship security, and doesnt go any deeper than the bedroom, and she will give up the chase.

Shawn, I think you are making progress and that is a good thing. Are you on a good overall trajectory? Is it really working?  I'm going to challenge that a bit.

First a story. We had a member here some years ago. He was an alcoholic. He claimed it was a huge improvement from where he was - he had been a meth addict. Alcoholism was his cure for meth addiction. And, in some way, his point was valid.

I see some parallels here.

You, as you have admitted, have a significant fear of vulnerability, and whenever a perception of a slight hits your radar, you break down and do self-defeating things. This was not 1.5 months ago, this was last week and the week before. Read your posts.

What was it that made you "omega" (to use your words) two of the last three weeks ago and "alpha", last week? Did your body change?  Your mind?  Did you give off new male pheromones?

No. She just made you a priority this last week.

Week One: Talking with ex boyfriend
Week Two: Out for drink with the girls
Week Three: Three days in cabin with Shawnlam.

I think what I'm saying is that you still have a significant fear of abandonment/vulnerability and red pill philosophies fuel it, they don't cure it. When you get slighted you can go to a Red Pill sight and tell everyone that she is garbage/paint her black (and get validation, soothing). When she pays attention, you can paint her white but tell everyone she is serving your alpha male needs and you are in control.

The whole point of my new way of training myself is frankly exactly for whenshe doesn’t make me a priority.You see there is no fixed way of thinking when it comes to a relationship.No “win all” tactic if you will, just what makes you comfortable.Right now what makes enormous sense to me , is making me a priority period.Too many times I as well as most men make the priority about the woman, that’s how dependancy happens.That will soon be dead to me as I can feel it dying in me already .Shes mentioned it to me as well saying things like “ you seem more distant and distracted “ or “ you don’t seem to have faith in us “? That’s the pure emotional BPD in her coming out but honestly she will have to get over it or accept it.My life has become me orbiting her and depending on her free time and hoping to get some of it.No longer really an issue for me , I’ll call her when I feel like it to talk , if she wants to see me she can ask , if I can I will .Shencan call me at will and I’ll answer.Do I make time for her , yes of course , but do I free it up immediately,no not if I had plans .Ive also taken to not keeping my phone around me for the specifics of distraction , feel better with it away.It suffers a bit on the texting response time sometimes to her but it’s not meant to hurt her ,it’s to help me focus on life and being attentive to what I’m doing.So obviously I get the occasional “your snobbing me” but it’s simply not the case.

I will agree 100% with your point that my lack of emotional responses to bad behaviors may get old with her quickly and she may move on,all I can say is if that’s what it is then so be it.Im not her therapist and she’s not mine so emotional outbursts are not required for me.She ever came to me and said baby we need to talk I’m pregnant , that’s not something I’d shrug off no way,but is she had to “talk about her feelings for her ex” again and again because he keeps calling her = nope.Ill just politely remove myself from that convo in a calm manner by saying something along the lines of “ only you can know what to do here , I don’t know him nor do I have any place in this” and go do something else in the house or where ever we were at the time.

Maybe I didn’t express myself properly in previous post but this is what I mean by emotionally pulling away.I brush off pointless sh$$t tests , I don’t engage in her emotionally triggered moods anymore especially those where I wasn’t The triggered .Like I said I’ll make some mistakes garantied coming up in the next weeks/days /months ,the goal is to reduce them entirely at some point and just be calm,collected ,disciplined and have a purpose for myself .You know what’s the funniest thing , all my longest relationships I have had I can remember in many ways I was focused on my career a lot .I was so busy I was never clingy or preoccupied with their feelings on me or what may or may not happen (granted none had BPD ).You know what happened in those relationships,nothing dramatic they were oddly normal and I still speak with those woman... .funny how I stepped away from that person I was .I think mid life crisis hit ,the missing family /kids thing pushed me to change in a very bad way like life was over and useless without a family.Only again am I realizing it’s ok to be only happy with yourself because if you are not why would a woman want to be with someone who can’t be happy with themselves ? It’s not some sort of trick either ,let’s try and sneak this new motto image onto others .Its a legitimate phase in my life that improving myself has become important again , except at my age I can incorporate all the mistakes I’ve made in my 20’s and 30’s and learn what not to do.We have all seen what I shouldn’t have done over and over on here from months ago.
Being with someone who has BPD brings out all the worst in someone (our flaws I mean), this was one of the largest wake up calls I’ve ever had in my life by far!

you really think that thats "pure emotional BPD" coming out?

good heavens. i hear a desire to connect and feel secure in her relationship. i dont know a woman who doesnt want that, man.

if "get over it" is the best you can do, she will. it wont feel good shawn. it wont feel good with the next woman or the next either.


whats the difference here between what youre doing and what you perceived her to be doing except that now, for a moment, you feel in control and powerful?


so out of those, how many of them lasted? how many of them grew into more?


i think the only difference in this relationship is that you faced adversity, and didnt fare so well. it wasnt her BPD. pouring yourself into your work was just a way of avoiding that adversity and vulnerability. it sounds like your take away is to go back to that rather than evolve and adapt.

you seem pretty wedded to this, and as Skip said, we will respect your choice. however, please dont mistake encouraging you to evolve your views on relationships and your role in them for "just care less" and trade an insecure attachment style for an avoidant one.

Maybe.  

I have to ask, what is it you want from members here? My question is sincere and softly spoken.

When you come here talking down your GF because she has hurt your feelings, and members try to center you - you mostly push back and tell us how your friends and family have it right and she is garbage. We have to work hard to push you through all that.

When things are good you come here with detached relationship concepts that are mostly geared to isolate you against your feelings.  Today you are "schooling" us on misogynist cult theories, ovulation targeting, how how these make sense for you.

You suggested that relationship dynamics are very different today than the 1940's an 1950's. I believe sociologists would agree that partnerships are very different today from the 1940 AND that the red pill concepts you described are more suited for a prior millennium. There is so much more to rewarding dating than what you are going through or aspiring to.

And yes, I think it starts with a better understanding of relationships and people. The reptilian brain and caveman theories are valid AND at the same time limited to reptilian level relationships. It's not at all new thinking. All this was documented in The Naked Ape: A Zoologist's Study of the Human Animal in 1967.

Valuing a women based mostly on a looks meter, has never been a formula for success. Physical appearance is important AND modern relationships are operating much further up the "‎Maslow's hierarchy of needs" model where self-actualization is what drives the most successful relationships (not reptilian procreation). There were significant changes in relationship dynamics for the 40's (prewar) to the 50's (post war) to the 60's and the 70's and later the 90's. Each step of the way, as the nation became wealthier and women more independent, the demands are more sophisticated (not less).

This would be good for you to explore... .in a lot of ways.

There is a time in life when some of us date to just date, have fun, pass through. There is nothing wrong with that. I didn't get married until I was 35 and I did a lot of casual dating and having fun.

At 40, most of us want more than a good time. Are you looking for a relationship partner or just someone to have fun with. You deep woundedness of her actions suggest you want more. You're "aloof aspirations" and repeated reference to her the rating some construction workers would give if she walked buy suggests not.

Do you know?

Hello Shawn,

I’ve been out of the loop for quite sometime, I probably would not have answered this thread but, I felt the need to do so. Initially, when I came on this forum, I was trying to make sense of it all, I blamed myself and considered myself to have failed. In some ways, I do agree with the rest of the members that “keeping a guard up” to put it may give you the reassurance that the damage that comes your way will be minimal. In reality, thats not the way a smart,confident, gentleman should be. Sometimes it works in relationships, sometimes it doesn’t. When I was with my ex, I gave her my all and I don’t regret it at all, its a good memory. But, there were times I was distant, and trying to make sure I wasn’t the  one to cause a mood upset. I guess in a way, I had a guard up to, but ultimately the end result was the same the damage was still the same. We can tell ourselves that, we’re better equipped, but you have to understand that your taking on quite a challenge. I hope things work out for you, but you have to work on yourself to understand that you will have to make sacrifices for this relationship to work. You can’t expect to have everything go your way, its psychologically impossible for someone with a fear of abandoment to function the same way as someone that doesn’t. I think that you need to understand some things to make yourself better equipped as per say. Note: I didn’t say make the relationship better because change starts with us. Someone with BPD requires validation and reassurance at all times, everyone varies in terms of how, but without therapy you will have to figure out her triggers and how to reach a balance. If you want the relationship on your own terms, you will be frustrated and swing back and forth. There is truth to some of the things your ex says that you tend to ignore. BPD is an unfortunate illness for her but it doesn’t define her or invalidate some of her feelings which are actually true. At a given point, she will want to have some sort of assurity or security and that happens with any woman that wants to have a serious relationship. I think you have to ask yourself that, if she doesn’t let go of the things you “dont like” can you still be with her. I think you have to figure out what you want from the relationship. With my ex, we would go in circles but, I wasn’t ready for something as serious as marriage. I didn’t want to let go, but ultimately I knew that I had to walk away because I didn’t want to string her a long for a promise I may not be able to keep. The question is, is this something serious for you, or are you just keeping her around because you think you can change her behavoirs and one day you could give her your whole heart.  I think when it comes down to it you have to see, the end game. I hope it works out for you, but trust me when your in that gray area its tough and its up to you now how you want to pursue it. No matter what you decide we’ll support you. Good luck, I hope it helps.

Once Removed I have agreed categorically with nearly everything I have seen you post on BPD Family -However, if I may, would 'accept' perhaps not be a better word than 'respect'?

Before reading this thread, I have been (blissfully) unaware of the 'Red Pill' doctrine.  Ironically, I thought it was a allusion to the Matrix movie implying taking the pill meant full commitment to an idea or in our context a relationship.  Sort of like the Lewis Carroll notion of falling down the rabbit hole... .Nope apparently not.

I take issue with the word 'respect' as from my newly found and vague understanding of the 'Red Pill' doctrine. It is based on a fundamental lack of respect for women as fellow human beings.  It seems to imply women are to be engaged when they are being 'fun' and shunned with they have needs.  This seems disrespectful in the extreme. 

Frankly spoken, I do not see women's hopes, desires, and needs in a relationship being all that different from a man's.  Trust, love, a confidant, an intellectual partnership, and affection.

I simply cannot understand wanting to spend time with someone I cannot love fully.  The Good, the Bad and the Ugly... .  Physical beauty is fleeting, inner beauty is eternal.

Shawn, if your girlfriend was your daughter or sister would you like to have her involved with a boyfriend who was as emotionally unavailable as you are professing to be?

When I am in a relationship I consider my partner to be my equal -her needs are as important as mine.

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.
Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.
Just walk beside me and be my friend.
--Camus

As an example when Dream Come True would rage I would actively listen let the vitriol wash over and through me and listen for 'the message'.  When she raged it meant she was fearful -she presented this fear as white hot hatred, but I knew it wasn't with me she was angry. 

By engaging, but not firing back I found her anger would subside and we could slowly get to the issue at hand.  I wasn't treating her as some one with a disorder, I was loving her -all of her.  I told her once "I love you when you are angry, I love you when you are sad, and I love you when you are happy --they are all parts of you"

People with BPD are acutely preceptive -I.e. the ability to mirror comes for the ability to perceive their partner on a level most people are unable to attain --Like a cold reader.  If you remain emotionally distant she will very likely 'feel' this and it seems possible this would exacerbate a fear of abandonment.  Fear causes the limbic system to throw us into 'Fight, Flight, Freeze'.

When one suffers from a personality disorder Fight, Flight, Freeze can potentially bring on a whole new meaning.  In Dream Come True's case -Fight boy howdy gloves off bare knuckle, Flight could either become ghosting or cheating, Freeze dysphoria (non-communicative crushing sadness).  I mention this as a parable for attempting to not cause a limbic response whenever possible.  Putting her fear of abandonment into overdrive all but ensures her eliciting behavior you will not like very much. 

I suppose the Red Pill philosophy strikes me as a bit of a Catch 22.  Only a woman lacking self-esteem would put up with a man acting in such a manner -any woman lacking self-esteem would, in my opinion, make a poor life partner. 

“I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.” -Groucho Marx

Yes -my relationship failed, but I was 100% in until the end.  I do not look back at any of my behavior with regret.  I loved her with all of my heart and soul until the moment it became apparent the relationship was doomed.  At no point was I half in and half out and there is solace for me knowing I did the best I could, withholding nothing of myself from her and us.


Wicker Man

There’s so much wisdom in those words right there.

I honestly believe that take all the negatives away from BPD. If there’s one thing about BPD, when they love they do it with everything. And to be quite frank with you, I would want a partner to give me everything in the relationship the same way I would do for them. Only difference is between the old me and the new me is that, I would want my partner to give me the same treatment as them, and to grow with me, unfortunately a partner with UNTREATED BPD, will not be able to offer that. That’s when I feel like one must decide, is this the relationship that I want, where my partners needs will come before mine. If that's accepted, then proceed but one must never do it unheartedly.

It should never be a game, because trust me, this is one game that will not end well.

Honestly gentleman I very honestly hope for all the best in your endeavors as well.I chose aspects of redpill or alpha male mentality not the whole cake because it made some sense to me .The parts that made sense were to better myself , enhance myself, value myself , even love myself .Putting myself and my growth first after what happened to me this past year was a no brainer for me , it’s my decision and I certainly am not asking you buy into it.Yes this woman hurt me and confused me, but at the same time I learnt so much about myself and my insecurities and issues and also on BPD (never even heard of this prior).As for the rest of redpill stuff like treating woman like garbage ,pump and dumping them or flat out cheating on them that’s not me ,never was , never will be.My sole goal with redpill/alpha male education combined with what I’ve learnt here is simple defined as such : understand to a better degree the thought process of woman ,including woman with BPD .Also to control my emotions to a far greater extent than I ever have previously in my life .If I can’t control myself then I can completely forget any relationship lasting .

As it stands now I’ve already shaped up my physical aspects , calmer mentally but this will take years , business wise is going better , and the list goes on.I also have pulled back into the emotional investment on my present relationship,we could go back and forth all day on who’s right or wrong frankly I don’t see a purpose in the push pull of this .I did it for me because I’m my eyes going 100% in with someone as damaged as my present gf would be simply stupid , as stupid as it was the first time .Why?  You can’t react and operate on any “normal” fashion with someone who one minute speaks of marriage,the next speaks of child names for a future baby,to wanting to buy a farm, to going on vacation with you but then maybe not but then maybe not sure ,to loving you intensely to pushing you away ... .all the while she doesn’t have cat food or toothpaste in the house with two kids .Id have to be the stupidest male on the planet to go all in with someone that completely lost.With that said I’m sure most of you are already biting your tongues saying “ Shawn what the hell are you doing with her then”? The answer: I love her as much as I have the confidence and honesty to tell you how it is with her as much as you think I’m bashing her I’m just telling you the truth without one minute of exaggeration... .something I’ve not seen too much as people keep defending their past SO or take blame for their behaviors as not appropriate around the ex’s or present gfwBPD.Sorry I tell the story as I see it but really I’m not that sorry.I love her and in my way I take care of her emotionally when she needs a shoulder to cry on,I put up with her sh$$t tests and mood swings and plan changes every day.I financially assist her without her effectively noticing it too much so she doesn’t feel bad.I also am 100% loyal to her and will always be until this May or may not work.I encourage her therapy but I don’t push harder than the pat on the back as it needs to always be her idea for this to work.

In final ,taking care of myself first and investing less emotionally than before doesn’t mean I love her less at all .Ill equate it to this : a lion trainer that gets bitten hard but doesn’t die from his wounds , doesn’t mean he hates the lion.It just means he is a hell of a lot more cautious than the first time and learns from his mistakes.When the lion wants to play like before he will realize very soon the trainer he had won’t play as ruff or vulnerable. I think as much as this site helped me realize so much about BPD that it skips the important parts sometimes of just how dangerous these people can be , very dangerous .Police reports,rape accusations,financial ruin, STD’s that can’t be cured and the list goes on.So NO I won’t invest 100% because life has taught me “Shawn buddy best be on guard here , don’t be naive that she changes over night and don’t think she may ever”. .The only friend I’ll have on this journey with her is time itself .Will she love me more or less as I change ? Will she leave me thinking I’m abandoning her? Will she change with therapy? Maybe get worse? Who knows , only TIME will tell not forecasting the impossible based off of trends that have low rates of success.
We can call this trying not to be vulnerable and being scared to get hurt , I’ll call this learning from my mistakes and not repeating them.Thanks to all who helped me ,as stubborn As you may think I am,I took away a lot from everyone to even contemplate changing as much as I have and want to.

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. --Ayn Rand


As far as I am concerned you have made your wishes abundantly clear.[/quote]

In parting --I would like to suggest considering other sources for your continued education which have shown the test of time.  Nietzsche, Jung, Plato, Socrates, Buddha, the Old Testament  --Hell have a look at Hemingway, Capote, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.  As a conglomeration perhaps even Jordan Peterson.

'From the beginning people like this have never managed, whether on their own or with the help by others, to see anything besides the shadows that are continually projected on the wall opposite them by the glow of the fire.' --Socrates from Plato's THE ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE


Well... .I tried.

Wicker Man

Never before heard of Red Pill, but will read up on it.  I guess there would be positives Shawn, since you’ve felt inspired to improve yourself physically and have been able to react more calmly to your GF’s outbursts.  I’m hoping you’re responding with compassion and not distance.

What I hope you DO come to understand about women, is that MANY of us are extremely intelligent and logical thinkers who stand on our own two feet because we must.  Many men are simply unreliable and lean on us for decision-making (even during LT marriages).  We are able to choose those we wish to share our emotions with, as well as our beds and our bodies.  We are able to recover from sexual assaults and STILL express healthy love toward healthy, loving and compassionate men.  And long after we cease ovulating, mine were surgically removed almost 14 years ago, I can still “sniff out” the good from the bad.  I use my brain, not my crotch.

Sometimes a “nerve” is hit... .

But if there is some power in that way of thinking for you, I am no one to stand in your way.

Gems

Hi Shawnlam,

Hope you are well!

You are getting a lot of thoughtful replies, encouragement, suggestions, and even challenges here. It is all heartfelt and well-intended and interesting to learn from for all of us!

Can I ask you to try something with your thinking? Imagine all you've read here is a like a coat you can put on and wear for awhile. See how it feels, how it looks on you. Sit in an easy chair with it on. If after a spot of time you want to take the coat off again and drape it over the armrest do so, but I strongly urge you to try it on for a bit. What if all of these folks who are writing out these long, detailed posts full of life experiences, readings, quotes, insights, are seeing something you might not quite be seeing?

I notice it is often much easier to recognize issues when I read other's posts. The  red-flag 's fly high! I don't always see myself as clearly, as well as I know myself, and try as I might. In fact, it's natural even to want to defend this thing we call "self"... .but what if you set "self" down for awhile and didn't try to defend it? And let all of this knowledge and support flow right into your center? And perhaps even change you a bit?

just a thought!

warmly, pearl.  

Good morning pearl , I understand what you are saying /asking  but I don’t believe ignoring ones self makes for a sane soul.I must have read a 100 stories on here in the conflicted / bettering relationship sections and it’s hard to read .So many good people with big hearts slowly being consumed by their SO .Life is too short to allow that to happen as far as I’m concerned,and I don’t believe life is supposed to be like this .

I will not allow myself to change and become what I could not live with it’s not in me.Ive always been a go getter who won’t quit ,from sports as a kid,military,to career .No other individual man or woman will cause me to become something I’m not .Even if she’s sick ,life’s too short to “ become “ what I’ve seen others become.

Oy vey. Shawn - I'm sorry. I needed to pick my jaw up off the ground for a minute before commencing typing. Come on, buddy.   With all due respect... .please tell me you do not actually subscribe to this - well, ridiculously illogical assumption.

You do realize there are nearly 4 billion women on the planet, each with their own "genetic make-up" and personality type? The mythology that women are "emotional and illogical" is just as absurd as the suggestion that "all men are knuckle-dragging, ball-scratching neanderthals with no emotional IQ, and are only good for hanging shelves and changing tires."

"Logic vs. emotion" are not gender based qualities or traits. At all. They are cultural, social, environmental, genetic (based on both parents) and also largely affected by family dynamics, coping mechanisms (both learned and developed), neurochemistry, educational background, and life experiences - among other things that we may never figure out. 

Small children of either gender are highly, equally emotional. How they learn to manage, develop, and utilize their emotion/logic are determined by a massive number of factors.

These absurd stereotypes are not doing anybody any good, Shawn. They are perpetuated by people with an agenda, lack of knowledge, or an outright prejudice/ignorance, and there is no room for that kind of nonsense in intelligent, logic based thinking. Think for a moment how racists promote their agenda by implying there is "genetic inferiority" in people of a different ethnicity.  As a woman who rarely, if ever, succumbs to emotional flights of fancy without a life or death emergency, (and even then, I think before I act) and has always been far too logical and rational for my own good, (often being called "cold" by my more emotional male partners) I have to tell you, women such as myself are no rarity, and highly emotional men are just as common. I just broke up with one. ;-) Every time you see the phrase "BPDbf" or "BPDh" on this site - you've got yourself an illogical man. ;-)

One of the main reasons why men are largely believed to be "less emotional" is because many societies and cultures subscribe to the "Be a man! Boys don't cry! Man up! Grow a pair!" schools of thinking. When boys reach a certain age they are conditioned to suppress and deny emotion, which is actually 100% normal, natural, and ok for them to have. You know what this type of thinking and conditioning of young boys and men creates?

Psychopaths. Emotional dysregulation disorders. People willing to commit genocide.

These same societies encourage/condition women to be "delicate, sensuous, emotional, fragile" - because to be a bit tougher, less dainty, and more logical isn't "feminine". It "intimidates" men, and therefore, we shouldn't do it.   You know what that kind of thinking creates? Insecure, oppressed, and disempowered women with inferiority complexes. You think it's an accident men like to tell women how "emotional and illogical" we are? Because if we start to believe it, they can dominate us.

The sooner we stop telling people how to be, and how "they are" based on gender, ethnicity, or any other such factor, the better world we will live in will be. That type of thinking is dangerous. As soon as we start believing "that group of people are genetically different from us"... .we've got some serious problems.

Do yourself a solid, man. Be willing to see each and every person as an individual, including your girlfriend. Don't give into the temptation to assume anything about anyone because of what you have been told about "how they are" or "how it is" - because it's all bullsh!t. Dangerous and unhealthy bullsh!t. If you really want to find yourself a good woman whom you can truly be happy with... .see her for who she really is, without the preconceived notions.

Peace and good luck. 

Hi Shawnlam,

I hear what you are saying and want to understand where you are coming from. I certainly do respect you making your own life decisions and that you are doing the best you can in the present moment.

What I want to ask you to consider though is if there might be other approaches to masculinity that could help you reach your goals, while not ascribing to even parts of a philosophy that is so denigrating of women. Throw the baby out with the bath water in this case!

I guess what I'm saying is I think it is important to have good self-esteem, self worth and a sense of proper boundaries, but doing that at the cost of feeling and experiencing life fully seems a high price to pay.

Your posts, like many posts, make me examine myself and my own blind spots in life. That is one of the upsides for all of us in sharing in this way. I am wondering if there might be a healthier approach with all of this? Another way to get to your goals that might... .not include putting up so much armor?

I get it. Relationships can be painful and disappointing. But do you think this version works really? Because it doesn't sound like you. You strike me as someone who really wants to give a lot of himself to his partner. Am I correct in understanding you love her and want her, but are holding back?

How sustainable is that? As I've "studied" love myself over the years, and intellectually tried to make sense of it, pulling in all the personal influences and looking at all the societal influences... .understanding how I came to be the person I am in the world and how "who I am" entails certain notions of love and relationships that I can't take for granted as being solid "truths"... .I just think and wonder for you... .Might there be other philosophies that could be more liberating? Bring you more peace than this one? Even if you are just doing a little "borrowing" from it in order to make sense of the world? Ya know?

There are other philosophies and ideas to choose from... .other ways to function in the world that might, just might, bring you more inner peace. From where I'm sitting this one sounds like a band aid, not a lifestyle or deep change. Ya know?

Where do your ideas about love and relationships come from? Why do you have those ideas vs. having other ones? (Just a rhetorical question really unless you feel like answering this! )

For me sometimes romantic love seems pretty silly I must admit. (Until I am swept away, again, and all in! hahahha) Love didn't always exist as we think of it in the present. You can historicize it. Cultures around the world have and do approach it differently. For me this means I can look at human history and find my own place in it and pick and choose a bit, be contradictory even at times, but I am free to change, and I like to all the time. I certainly have my own notions of things, things I would not want to change about me, but I like to always position myself as ready to hear a new and better idea. Always. But I can get stuck like anyone else!  We are all works in progress!

Again,  I recommend the above mentioned mental exercise to you! You like to work out your body, why not let your brain have a little extra work out time too?  

Let me give you another example. I often like to say this is my last relationship and I'd never do another one. I have a list of reasons regarding that and they seem fine. My age, the number of relationships I've done, how hard relationships can be, even just... .after this immensely challenging journey with my current SO wondering if I have it in me. I'm kinda tired.  I think is okay to not do romantic relationships, for me. To retire if you will, and put my energy and talents (and flaws) elsewhere! hahahaha. But lately I have been asking myself if there are more reasons beneath that, ya know? Is it just because I'm middle aged? (Though I am d*mn fine! ahahhahaha. Sorry I had to make a joke. ;) ) Or... .is there a deeper wound I am not aware of? And if so where does it come from? And what I am protecting?  I am really not sure, but your posts made me ask myself that so thank you!

I am not 100% against ever having a relationship again. It would not be my first priority given that I believe work belongs in that spot, but I don't want to harden myself either. I would not pursue love, but I would not reject it either. I'd just like to make a healthy, proper choice with it.

Anyway, all of this to say... .it never hurts to reexamine the things you think are really, really true. And in your case there is a lot of hurt and disappointment and trying to construct yourself. I get it. I feel like I have to reconstitute what it means to even be me some days. That is a lot of tiring work on those days.

But what if you could dream a bit? Have your ideals in life and pursue them? What if? What if you could bring this or another relationship a little closer to your dreams? Would it be worth a try?

Please, dear fella, put down your armor! None of us gets to outrun pain in life. (That is the whole origin story of Buddhism. The Buddha's life story and transformation. Not disconnecting, but the ultimate in connecting to all that exists from his point of view. And it has its own built in strategies for pain. It's flawed like any human creation, but it has some nice tools built into it. I'm not selling a religion, just reminding you there are lots of free tools other humans have left lying around you can pick up and tinker with a bit, if ya like.  It's free!) It is unavoidable, pain I mean... .and deep down you know this I suspect.

I lost someone I romantically loved once. Bad timing for us, a future was not possible. It hurt terribly. But oh how glorious it was to have loved him and to have dreamed of more with him. He would have been so cool to share life with! I am so glad for the short time I had him and always will be though. Wow! And oh how it hurt! So many tears and sleepless nights! But sometimes love gets away... .but you know the saying. "Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all!"  Oh, so true!

Don't let life make you bitter. Please.  

with compassion and love, pearl.

Thank you for that thoughtful post pearl you seem to be someone with high empathy and a big heart.I don’t disagree with why what you said or with  anyone else’s thoughts and suggestions .You,skip, once removed and others have much more experience and seeing the wounded come and go from here.You also have seen what can possible work versus what most certainly won’t .I respect your guidance and believe what you are saying .

After listening  to jordon Peterson , Alan Watts and reading a new book on Buddhism as part of my learning process , Love means something different to me than before.If I combine what I’ve learnt from these people and others ,plus the very select information I took from redpill and alpha male literature (not the degrading of woman part as I’ve stated I can’t be that man),love isn’t what I thought it was.Its not so much I’m putting up some armor or shield to never live happy anymore , no that would be foolish and counter productive.I just had the movie ,social media ,fairy tail view of love let’s say a year ago.That no longer exists to me , in a quote from Skip that made a lot of sense to me in a previous post “ Love is more about getting the groceries together than rose pedals “ probably butchered that but it’s close.I don’t believe someone can absolutely love anyone unless it’s a parent to a child and back , that’s about it.I think human beings have roles to play that in today’s modern society are forgotten .Allow me to explain it will give you insight into what my frame has become:

Take for example my character prior to a year ago .I was confident,in shape , self esteem was ok , and I had good values and principles.When I started going out with my gf what changed ? ... .ME... .and not in a good way.Instead of maintaining my frame and always making me a better version of myself as I age , I stopped and became obsessed with this woman .What happened? The man she was attracted to was gone, and a mess was in its place .In the easiest explanation Pearl , “ Shawn lost his frame “. A woman with or without BPD wants a man in her life .Redpill didn’t explain to me what woman are , it explained to me what a man should be.A man is someone who always strives to be better everyday .Strong physically ,mentally , educated, constantly reading learning being a pillar of strength when looked upon.I became the opposite of this until awhile ago .Today I’m back to the old me but revised version”Shawn 2.0”.What does that entail ? I read more , I work on my old cars build things with my two hands again.I work out,eat better , and love myself and want myself to be better daily ... .Redpill the smart ones on that forum never bash woman or blame woman for anything , don’t degrade them either .They explain what woman want , a man who delivers those things constantly and does it for him not her.Woman want a stable ,strong, growing male with resources .It comes down to love and (respect).Ive read articles on that site from woman ,many stated this quote “ I’ve loved men than I didn’t respect “ and it’s for the reasons above .
A lot of men even those on here (and past me) think woman owe them something because they provide resources like home,father,money etc .They thing a woman needs to love them back because they gave them all these things ... .hogwash ! A woman owes you nothing , and we owe them nothing.I believe a woman will love AND respect a man if he is a pillar of strength and expects nothing in return.Im seeing this happen in front of my eyes with my gf.From the outside looking in people would say “he’s checked out” because there is no chase to this relationship.But from what I’m seeing , me being me and doing what I think is best for me ,somehow is attracting her more.Shes free to leave and do what she wants with whom she wants yet she’s still around me? Why? Even with strong BPD traits why?  Because even woman with BPD don’t want neediness or clingyness I’m pretty sure.
What tactics do I use with her now because of her BPD ?( I use no tactics)! I react and behave the same with her as I would with other woman and men.When she tests me I don’t react , when she gets emotionally and pushes me you know what I do ? Nothing I ignore it ,even when she insults me I just shrug  it off and spend more time with myself .Since this new way of reacting you know what’s changed ? She dares not insult or push me in public or with friends ,she acts ... .normal? Like I’ve never seen her do ,not out of fear of me no,out of respect.When she pushed me once last weekend up north at a rodeo show I just took her aside and In a very nice equal tone I said to her , don’t talk to me like that it’s disrespectful and I won’t have it , I don’t treat you like that”. Then 1 second later I went right back to normal and she was just fine for the rest of the weekend.Has she realizes on her own the more she pushes or lashes out the less time I give to her? And when she’s the opposite I enjoy more time with her? Maybe in some subconscious manner this is having an effect.? When she goes on an extreme high you know what I do ? Nothing I act the same ... .I don’t start planning baby names and places for a honey moon , I just change subject to something else more reasonable but positive .I don’t encourage her ultra highs anymore than her ultra lows.

In final , I said the truth to everybody here because I don’t know any other way to be.I am not investing 100% like a conventional relationship that’s the truth.Why ? Because she has a lot of issues as well to figure out and I’m still changing to be better.But not for one minute do I mistreat her not at all.She sees a much calmer version of me, more a thinking man, and a man that takes time for himself to better himself .This allows her more time for her friends,family etc.Right now she’s at a work event and her gf’s asked her how come she didn’t take me with her like her other work colleagues.The old Shawn would have been upset or confused about this .The new Shawn was happy he didn’t have to go as I need to pull out the cam on my old car and am looking forward to spending time by myself in my garage .

Will there be a time where this relationship goes further? Maybe ... .time will tell but I’m in no worry.Another thing my new behavior has taught me especially meditation is forget rushing.Yeah I’m 42 who cares , what’s the rush here? Am I happy today ? Yes ! I hiked in the rain up a small mountain near my house and once I hit the top I sat on a rock and watched the rain ( the got attacked by a million mosquitos) and hiked back had breakfast.This made me happy , am I less of a man than the 30 year old with 3 kids and a wife with a white picket fence house ? Who knows maybe , maybe not , I don’t waste time anymore looking at what he/she has , I just enjoyed my hike , fresh air and cardio.You know what I’m think work will be like tomorrow morning? Neither do I , I’ll get there when I walk in the door and deal with it as it happens ,not think about it all day today like I used to ,totally pointless.

I wish I had the ability to provide advice better to people on here but sadly I can’t articulate as well my though process or mind frame as eligantly as someone like wickerman or yourself .If I could all I’d say to everyone that came here is : don’t forget who you were before your relationship with your ex BPD partner or present partner .Only thing the person with BPD changed was she/he showed you who you forgot you were and showed you the weaknesses in your frame .Its up to you now to recognize and repair yourself and better yourself where you were weak .Stop changing yourself first before realizing who you were to begin with .Admitting you have issues is a great first step, now put aside your partner and fix them or change them.You are no good to anybody being broken especially to anyone with a complex B disorder who is already very broken.Two damaged people don’t make a healthy outcome.If your BPD Woman was attracted to you when you were confident and strong then that’s what she wants in her life stop changing or correct the wrong turn you did .If she was attracted to you when you were already down and damaged , you have no chance of this ever working if there isn’t any self respect.

Loving someone who’s very damaged from a traumatic childhood is extremely hard to do.Pity sadness, fixing them all need to be removed from the equation (very tuff to do). Then self evaluation occurs in extreme ways (it did for me).Am I who I need to be for me? Can I be better for me?, does this life make sense anymore? Am I happy in life right now (forget about the relationship)? If you answer those questions honestly the next question answers itself  ( am I happy with him/her in my life) and ( can I be happy with him/her in my life)?  Only you can answer those questions and once answered honestly you will be able to pick a road to drive down and it will probably be the right road.

It takes a hardened frame of mind (mindset) to be able to look into the eyes of someone you love very much (BPD or no BPD) and say to yourself “ can I walk away from this person if they cross heavy boundaries like trust ,respect).Most would say this is male showvanist BS and it’s a horrible mindset, today I can say with utmost confidence : If you have any self worth or value for yourself and realize how little time we have on this planet , accepting less than your worth isn’t heroic,empathic,or makes you a great human being... .it’s walking in a perpetual fog .A fog you chose to keep around you to justify your fear of being alone with yourself because you don’t think you are worth it.Its not “Shame on her or shame on her BPD for doing those things to me”. , it’s “shame on you for accepting to be treated like that”.

I understand the whole concept of being the best version of ourselves, and i’m glad that your achieving that, but I feel like there are some questions that your ignoring subconsciously, by using the ideology of “when it comes to that then we’ll see.” From where i’m standing, it feels more to me like if the relationship is according to your rules and principles its manageable but, if its according to hers then its not. I’m no expert in relationships, but I do know a lot about the human mind. Two people with opposite views will not be able to walk in a straight line until one of them accepts that that its okay for moments where one partner walks out of the straight line ultimately meeting up on common grounds. I think that you need to see what you want from the relationship, before your given a difficult choice and all the effort you made goes back to square one. I feel like, in a way the relationship is too good to leave, but at times based on previous posts too bad to stay. I hope that you dont find this post questioning you, i’m just asking as a friend because I’ve been where you are and I wish at that moment I asked myself where do I see this relationship in the future... .Good luck! I hope things get better.

Actually you are correct this relationship from my perspective will have to go my way if I want to remain in it.What are the two things that need to go my way , her being loyal/trustworthy and her being respectful... .that’s about it.If in time she can sustain this then the relationship will flourish if not it will end .Until then I won’t invest 100% , ill just provide her with what I want in return loyalty and respect hoping it will rub off on her... Her track record is her problem from the trust perspective (lying) and it’s her problem to correct .She is in therapy and she even told me this is an issue for her, so I’m giving her time to prove to me she can do it.Words are meaningless to me now , actions prove everything. I see too many people on her with regrets even yourself struggles and what you said .I say don’t regret what happened , use it as a lessons learned ,I have. I used to blame her for most of what happened when the whole time I was the enabler and also blind.These “ relationships” with individuals with BPD are usually a one way street struggles just read the on going stories in bettering a relationship.Only with therapy (extensive) are there chances it can work.OR you completely desolve yourself and who you were to become a parent to a grown adult which when looking at statistics still ends usually in a discard.Even woman with BPD still need to respect their partners and when they don’t just like any woman , she checks out looks for better .You don’t have to believe me ,I’m not asking you to , just read the stories for yourself I’m sure you have it’s like clock work.My relationship isn’t normal by any stance , nor will it be unless her treatment works over time.She May come to not like the new me to and not want me around ... .so many possibilities to be honest.So far it seems to be doing the very opposite, she’s cautious before doing something I would consider disrespectful, she doesn’t do them anymore (so far). She says stuff when emotional like last night she said to me “I hope you don’t get tired of me”. She was supposed to come to my house for 10 after a work event (team building day outdoors ). She then texted saying she’s going to one of the employees places with 7 others for a bbq.She then texted me saying she’s been drinking and she wasn’t sure if she would make it by 10pm. All of this wasn’t an issue , I simply said I’m going to bed at 10 because I’m up at 5am for work tomorrow so if it’s after 10pm just head home no big deal... .drive safe don’t risk anything.She showed up before 10  not too drunk and that’s how it ended .The old me would have stayed up late waiting for her or texting her , new me just didn’t care to be drama involved or a care taker .Shes a grown woman she can decide what she wants to do and if there are consequences to be had (DUI) she can handle them like a big girl.I discussed just once with her ,her heavy drinking issues and that was it.I only told her maybe something to look into on a control issue and then dropped the subject.

As you can see my relationship like most on this forum is far from standard or kosher , it may very well never be.Whats the pull away from this ? Same thing I’ve been saying these last few weeks , be the best version of you, give that best version back outwards as best you can.Control your emotions and be the strong one, be prepared at anytime to walk away if extreme things happen like lying / cheating etc .No drama , no convo,just walk away never to return.Life is way way too short to waste with people who can’t be bothered to help themselves.I read this story on here once of some poor guy who was married 10+ years with a BPD partner ,bought her horses ,home ,land , she still walked on him... .can you imagine losing 10 years man? For nothing except heartbreak and confusion? Crazy to be taken like that but I’m sure there were many warnings all along.Love is a great thing but don’t be blind to it either , it can all be equated down to a chemical high if we want to get scientific but it ruins the appeal.

I think I understand where you’re coming from Shawn.

I believe that following or reading the RP theory gives you some sense of relief or some sense of power over the situation. It probably soothes your anxieties as well and helps you cope in situations. For example, how some people look for the Bible or other forms of a higher power/belief in times of distress.

In my relationship with my expwBPD, I tried everything. I did the “do my best so I wouldn’t regret it” and then towards the latter, I did the distant approach because I was too heartbroken and scared she wouldLeave again. I prepared myself for when she would Leave because I even gave up.

I was very broken, insecure, you can say needy and had abandonment issues resurface.

I read everything I could. Watched everything I could on getting your ex back and attracting girls, being an alpha. I also observe people in public. I even spent time with my uncle and aunt and obserebd their relationships.

Yes they teach you to be an alpha. This is correct but not everyone has a real meaning of alpha or how to get that route. It’s a mindset that you have to develop. But this is where things can be tricky. Hitler seduced a whole nation to believe his idealogy, as any other dictator.

In the months after my breakup, I sulked. I cried. I grieved. People say guys shouldn’t cry. “You’re a girl” etc. this is absolutely wrong in so many ways. This is how people form unhealthy mental conditions or behaviors. I have always been an emotional person. Maybe because there was no real father/male figure and I grew up with a house of females. This probably also why I’m so in touch with my feminine side. (Can’t complain) and I can easily speak to girls.

Guys should be able to express emotions and accept their flaws and weaknesses. No one is perfect. It’s how you face adversity and struggle. I think that’s a part of being alpha.

Sidetrack:
after reading all these  being alpha and the master seduction stuff,  I applied it to my next girl. We dated, I felt so confident and secure with her. She wasdrop dead gorgeous. I wasn’t needy or insecure one bit. But she had her own things she had to deal with. This hurt and resurfaced my abandment  issues be EVEN More

I asked what I did wrong this time. But sometimes it’s really  not you. And this is hard to accept for someone who needs to know why or how. “I blame being a science major and loving crime shows”  she told me a Month later it had nothing to do with me and more her.

Next girl, I was avoidant. One foot barely in and the other out. She kept inviting me to meet her friends, and I even forgot her birthday by a day. (We just sorta met though) I didn’t like being avoidant and disregarding but I enjoyed the Chase now. I didn’t know but every text or reponse was just feeding my ego. This isn’t healthy.I thought this method was better based of teachings of Corey Wayne. But no. Every girl is different.

This girl probably felt like I didn’t prioritize her and I also was genuinely busy.

Next girl. I did another approach. I’m actually glad this one didn’t work.

What I’m going with this, Shawn. Is that every person is different and you can’t have a foot in and out approach. You are invalidating her in a way and her emotions and feelings are important. More than likely, this probably happened to her during her child years in her foo. I know my exes did and that’s why she did it to me. Also, I know people preach to be mysterious and having your feelings unclear and how girls want a Chase and what they can’t have. 

You wanting to be best version of yourself is amazing. But having the notion that girls are illogical won’t get you anywhere. Trust me I even thought this was to be true from the countless get your ex back videos.  How girls are like “cats and men are like “dogs”. This is wrong on so many levels. some girls are really really intelligent and some are clueless. Just like men. This isn’t determined by sex but More by  genetic factors, environmental/setting, foo, outside factors.

I think basement dweller hit spot on.

I’m not going to lie there are a lot of emotionally unavailable and toxic people out there. Dating is a pool of it. Sometimes a needle in a haystack if you will. And some relationships you have to ask if it’s worth fighting for. I fought for my expwBPD. I fought for her for years. But my life on hold. I’m only 24 now. But I can look back and say I did everything I could to fight and not give up. You only have chance at life and the last thing you want is regret. I did the best I could in those moments. She chose to leave and it happens unfortunately. Feelings are fickle Shawn. They change constantly. There were moments even I didn’t want to be with my ex during the rs.

You can control your emotions in moments of weakness and uncertainty and in public which is awesome. But you also shouldn’t hide from them. Ask yourself why do I feel this, that. Being understanding of your emotions and able internalize is healthy and what will help one grow.

Good answers here and good discussion from everyone. If I may, as a woman, offer a little bit of insight on the "alpha male" mythos... .

You will hear a lot of theories from men with varying agendas and opinions about what women "really" want, and how to be "that guy".

If you want accurate information: Please ask us. ;-)

A few points to ponder, you can take them or leave them. If this helps even one guy out there trying to navigate his way in the dating world, so be it. My work will be done. 

1.) Nothing is more repellent and more of a red-flag than the phrase (or the concept) "alpha male".

2.) Healthy, strong, intelligent, independent, mentally well women are not attracted to swaggering bravado, overconfidence, or a domineering personality. True confidence is subtle. If it's obvious at first glance, it may very often be arrogance, not confidence. Confidence is proven by what you have to say and the amount of subtlety with which you can say it and still be understood. 

3.) Regardless of whether or not I am ovulating (  ) if you put me in a room full of various men of all shapes, sizes and personality types, the one I will gravitate towards, always, is the one who subtly radiates calm intelligence, introversion, and a measured temperament. The one who is not speaking loudly or drawing attention to himself. The one who isn't so visible to 99% of people. The one who is in the corner of the room and not in the center. The one with no obvious vanity. NOT the muscular, athletic looking guy who appears to 100% comfortable in a crowd. The one who looks like he'd rather be anywhere BUT a crowd. The closed book that once opened, is remarkably deep and full of wonder. That's the hidden gem. This might be my own little quirk. So be it. It has always yielded good results. But... .if it were just me and my quirks, I wouldn't have posted them here. When I get together with the ladies and talk about "what women want" - nobody wants the stereotypical alpha. Nobody cares about biceps or bank account. We care about brains. Character. Humbleness. We have our own strength, and our own bank accounts. ;-) In some cases, the "squeaky 'alpha' wheel" might sometimes get the oil... .but the squeaky wheel is the one that's the problem, isn't it?

4.) Intellect, compassion, and humbleness are "alpha" traits if such a phrase is to be used. Which it shouldn't.

5.) The swaggering overconfident guy might attract women. In many cases, needy ones who want to be steered, led, and have trouble thinking for themselves. The gold diggers. The "waifs". The delicate victims. Good luck with that.

FWIW, the one time I veered off my usual path, and gave a guy a chance who fancied himself "alpha" I met my BPD ex. Shortest, most difficult and regrettable relationship of my life. Switched back to my "normal" type, and have started seeing a new guy. Am 100% certain (and reminded) that "alpha" is not what people (especially RP dudes) think it is. At all.

Guys: if you want to be seen as "alpha" by quality women, healthy women, women who will appreciate you, - be intelligent, respectful, and a good listener. It's fine to stay fit, but instead of worrying about your bench press, learn to cook, or pair food and wine properly. Read theoretical books. Volunteer at an animal shelter. Don't worry about learning to approach women with confidence. When you take the reins too much, you attract women who can't. That will get old, quick. Be the guy that women want to approach... .with curiosity.  The intellectual, compassionate guy is sexy. The guy who women feel comfortable will see them as an equal, and not an illogical dainty thing that needs to be seduced and coddled. The stereotypical "alpha"? Don't be that guy. No woman worth having wants a man who sees her as a conquest and not an equally strong and intelligent partner.

Just my .02. Might not be worth Jack Squat.

The funny part is you are correct about emotions , I did an exercise from one of Elliot Hulse videos about releasing emotions .I did cry pretty good and got super angry in an exercise to release that tension I had built up a few weeks ago.Honestly it’s the only thing that’s worked 100-%. To keep me centered .Meditation is good but seems to wear off some (doesn’t last the day). I already know as it stands now there is no way I could live or build a life with her she would outperform my countering of emotional disfunction.Our time apart helps me recenter and find new ways to control myself, my impulses etc .Thank god for distance for now , I’m hoping one day I’ll be able to auto regulate with ease instead of concentrated intense effort .By that time I’m hoping she herself can self regulate better and be more stable , it’s a time game.

Just like men who are hard to find (the good ones) , that type of woman is saybis just as rare.I will agree with you , Pompous asses are not attractive ,which is why lots of RP theory needs to be placed aside .With that said in my specific case I needed to become that emotionally stable guy , centered and calm , not the mouthy bicep ass .I fear one thing reading your post though , I fear my present gf prefers to be lead .She has no will to take or share decisions and actually gets annoyed when asked .She prefers it this way and it frightens me,at first I believed she was being humble but the more time passes , no change.Even with a 10 year gap her being 30 she’s not close to the maturity of most at that age .Thats another hurdle I’m trying to figure out for myself , she let’s say likes to have a lot of fun

Beautifully put BasementDweller

Hi, Shawn -

I can very much understand your dilemma where you want to be a strong person in her life, while you are struggling with her emotional lability plus all kinds of information, suggestions, and advice, some of it good, some of it not so good.

"I needed to become that emotionally stable guy , centered and calm , not the mouthy bicep ass."

Haha! Exactly! I liked your choice of words there. 

It is highly possible that your GF has times when she really feels like she needs to be rescued, and it can be hard to find the fine line between coddling in a not so helpful way, and "encouraging" - which is good. If she genuinely seems put out by having to make decisions, or like she wants you to "take care of her", she may not trust her own judgement, be insecure about certain things, and so she turns to you for some type of reassurance... .however, this can create an unstable power dynamic where she ultimately will resent it when she begins to feel engulfed. This is classic BPD stuff and really, really difficult to navigate.

My BPD ex was the one guy that I really had trouble with when it came to figuring out how to manage that dynamic. He came off as wanting to be "alpha" which I gently but firmly rejected. I wouldn't be steered that way, but I would listen to his opinions and thoughts. If I did not agree with them, I did not pretend to. It was that simple.

At first he acted so impressed by this - that I was a strong, stable woman that stood my ground. (Most of his exes were not, hence he got bored with them quickly.) Midway through our 2.5 year relationship, he began to feel insecure/inadequate simply because I was independent and self-sufficient. As I always had been. He wanted to be the white knight now, though, and I did not need one. I just wanted an equal partner.

Eventually, toward the end, he couldn't sustain it. The strength and stability that I had was a threat to him, and the devalue and discard began. I didn't have a fighting chance. He wanted a mother, a caregiver, a boss, an angel of mercy, a slave, a dominatrix, and a perfect human being that was all things at once, never misread or disappointed him, and always got it right. I am not. Nobody is. I believe I am a good person as I am and I feel bad that we couldn't make it. I couldn't be who and what he wanted, because it doesn't exist.

When we have a firm mindset about how we want our partner to be, and we get super rigid about it, that can cause an impasse and eventual failure of the relationship. What's the right recipe? Hard to say.

What I think isn't good though, is this "battle of the sexes" stuff. It's bad for both men and women. We shouldn't be at battle. Who wants that?

But we get defensive. Men and women get hurt by each other, and then get in their respective corners. "Screw these b!tches, they're only good for one thing!"

And the women will sometimes say the same. "Stupid knuckledraggers! They're all pigs!"

We say these things because we have been hurt. Usually because we wanted love and it failed. But how can we find love with such attitudes?

I can't say for sure how to manage the situation with your GF, but a good place to start might be with the validation and listening with empathy tools. When it seems like she wants to be led or is looking for guidance - ask what she needs from you. If she wants you to take the reins, suggest to her to do so herself, but in an encouraging way that shows you have faith in her strength and ability.

A good example is if she goes out with friends again, gets tipsy, and sends a picture of her partying, even if your first instinct is to correct, protect, worry, instead try something like "Looks like a fun time! Be safe, and I'll see you when you get home." It shows you care and trust her, but are still looking out for her in a supportive way. You may find in time that she's less rebellious, and acts out less, because you trust her and let her steer her own ship. Worth a try, at least. That's what calm, stable Shawn would do, I think. ;-)

Pretty creepy that as I read your post all her weird statements during her emotional upheavals flooded my head .She often would say or do these things as an example :

Often when I’m being my calm self lately just as an example sitting outside on the porch or whatever she’d look at me and say “ ugh you and mister calm face then bite me” playful but very sixth sense disturbing.
She said very often I’m a lot like her father (someone who she wishes would have raised her because when she lived there he had rules where her mom had none).
She put me in her phone as sir ,to her a playful joke but still

Whenever she feels bad/sad / sick she can’t let me go wants me around her  asks me to call her

After sex She initiates often she will occasionally call me pig ,also she likes to be dominated ,but in a uncomfortable way sometimes.

When she just sees me reading or doing something she will snicker playful and say stuff like “ you and that face , mr “man” , then hug me and say stuff like ohh I have control over you to sometimes ? Like it’s a competition that just doesn’t exist given she effectively does what she wants

Also when I’m doing guy stuff with her sons like sports or whatever she will pull me aside and say “ it turns me on when you are so paternal”.

And the the scarier more disturbing things I’ll get from her completely random btw:
You are a nice proper man who doesn’t deserve to be hurt or treated like the others.
Why don’t you get mad at me just once I wanna see you mad at me what would it take for you to yell or hit me? <~~~ that one still haunts me
You deserve better than someone like me ,you are too good for me .

She often gives me fore warning of stuff she knows is not good to do but does them and will text very weird stuff right before like ( I love you,don’t worry, I hope you don’t get tired of me, I hope you know I’ll never hurt you on purpose).

This is going to sound very disturbing to people reading this and it freaks me out myself and I have huge issues feeling like this sometimes but I get the feeling I’m dating a 8 year old girl who acts out almost begging to be scolded or corrected... .very uncomfortable but being calmer now in front of her it seems her outbursts are less frequent.

All in all you weren’t far off with your comments as you can clearly see.

Shawnlam,

I'm resisting putting my $0.02 in because I think Basement Dweller is doing a great job representing womankind (by insisting that there is no such thing as a starter.  )

I do want to point out two things that I think you may want to ponder on.

1)  It is very difficult to pick and choose the messages we take away from our readings.  While we may think that we can say "this thing person X is saying it true but the rest is hogwash", we tend to lend more credibility to person X as a whole the more we ascribe to any part of what they are saying.  It's part of our cognitive bias.  I hear that the nugget of gold that you have found in your Red Pill readings is the message of improving yourself and becoming "calm Shawnlam", but I would challenge you to go through your posts and highlight some potential "hogwash" you have not quite separated from that gold nugget.  As some have suggested, Red Pill is not the only source of the gold nugget you want to hold onto.  Maybe finding other sources with less "hogwash" quotient would be safer in the long run.

2)  It sounds like you look at who you were before BPDgf as being more closely related to who you want to be again.  I would humbly suggest that who you were not only attracted but ACCEPTED BPDgf into your life and ALLOWED the transition to the less healthy Shawnlam.  Maybe it's because I'm in a retrospective healing journey at the moment, but I think that may bare some examination if you feel that you are working to get back to that Shawnlam.  You may not actually want to be back in that place and idealizing it may not be a good idea. 

BG

Shawn, i also felt like I was dating a 5 year old at times. My ex used to joke and say things like “I’m only 2 years old” in this cute voice and pretend to be all innocent. But after a while it became creepy.

Other times her behavior was off putting was during sex she said “tell me you love me, even if it’s a lie. No one has ever told me they loved me”.

You can imagine how her being my first real rs and first time having sex was a bit traumatic. Other times she used to say things like “I want you to yell and curse at me” I told her I’m sorry I’m not abusve like that. No matter how much it turned her on.

My ex however couldn’t give up her power in the relationship. She couldn’t be submissive no matter what. In the moments she would, she would take the power right back.

I’m only mentioning these experiences because I don’t want you to feel like you are alone here.

Basement and others have given you tons of support and we will continue that here.

My ex would also say things like “you deserve better” or “I will never leave you I promise” etc. one that stood out was “im scared I’ll hurt you like I was hurt”

When and since I’ve been back together I noticed one of the main factors that you touched on in your post , and in relation to many peoples posts on the bettering board ... .we often feel alone.Dating someone with BPD causes many lonely moments especially during a push phase,it’s why complete attachment  is not sane in my opinion.A human beings emotions were not meant to be used like a yo-yo ,it’s extremely unhealthy to operate in this state.Often when reading in BPD a lot of suggestions I’ve seen people do is to “always be there” for them.That works to an extent , but once they walk away ,or cross a strong boundary like cheat , they need to be dropped permanently.Given the chances these individuals will do something like this are fairly high , full attachment in my opinion is not recommended.You can love them,care for them, but you have to put yourself first always when in a relationship like this.Now I don’t mean literally do whatever you want when you feel like it.An example of what I don’t suggest is along the lines of :she wants to go to this place or eat at this restaurant or wants to paint the house this color and all you say is no that’s going to be my way.Im talking more from a deeper mental /soul aspect .Always be prepared for the walk away,always be prepared to protect yourself when the inevitable happens and if it doesn’t for a long time , never forget it can be around the corner.Normal relationships have a similar risk but with BPD it’s amplified 100 fold .

Do your thing, maintain your hobbies and friends/family,work on yourself by exercise and education all first , then the time remaining you can share it.Most people with BPD kinda act like narcissists given they always put themselves first and it will always be about them.Makinh the fatal mistake of agreeing to this behavior is what brings people here and causes such epic level grief it’s heartbreaking to read .You can’t invest more into someone than you do yourself , it’s pure lunacy and unfair to you.To validate and be more empathetic to someone does work BUT there is a line in the sand from a common sense perspective.The minute “abuse” happens in the form of them leaving to go persue a new target, and major disrespect like financial damage to a high extent,lying in major ways that cause harm to their partners or children , all of these have only one outcome... .walk away.You are doing them no favors and certainly not yourself.If you try “working through that” you are just enforcing their behaviors to continue.There are reasons why people with BPD leave an alarming swath of ex people in their lives .All of what I just wrote is what I mean when I say I won’t invest 100% no matter how good the good times are/where/will be, always and I mean always remember the bad times and what can potentially be on it’s way in a minute/hour/day/week/month or year... .always keep your distance enough to be able to turn and walk... .may sound brutal but it’s just prudent and sound judgement in my opinion.

Late to the thread... .all very very interesting, and I can certainly relate here... .to many of the points made(?).

Hmmm... ."Red Pill life philosophy"?

I recently heard of the "MGTOW" movement... .I was out after dark in the bad part of town, listening to' two you.tube personalities... .you may have heard of them,
*Dr. Tara Palmatier & Paul Elam

I should not drink wine after midnight, and watch you.tube videos at the same time  !


This is why they had lifeboats on the Love Boat !

This is a great thread !

Red5

We have some of that work here. These are on our "junk psychology" list, but everyone should choose for themselves what they think is the most healthy support resources. We just encourage everyone to carefully chose the foundation upon which you build your emotional intelligence and maturity.


Date: Mar-2015(https://bpdfamily.com/book-covers/spacer.gif)Minutes: 3:37
Video Short | Tara Palamatier
Full video: bpdfamily.com/message_board/msg12539682 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273744)

Date: Sep 10, 2017(https://bpdfamily.com/book-covers/spacer.gif)Minutes: 6:52
Fuck Anger Management | Shari Schreiber



Date: 12 - 2012(https://bpdfamily.com/book-covers/spacer.gif)Minutes: 6:00
Lower your voice by breathing through your balls  | Elliot Hulse

When you are down and out, looking for answers, explanations, and some kind of validation that you ain't crazy, .you may resort to looking for answers "down town"... .even if its toxic, and quite questionable in its presentation.

Like when puppy dog has heartworms, and the vet prescribes arsenic to "cure it"... .

Yeah, I will admit it right here, and right now, .I am a "user"... .:caution:... .of such resources.

Thanks Skip !  

Red5

There is no cure all one way street psychology, the entire premise of it was man made and hence flawed.This isn’t biology, chemistry  or mathematics so to each their own beliefs , there is no desperation in learning new skills or ways of thinking.To be close minded to the information on this site would be just as foolish as to be closed minded to other ways or points of view .I have yet to see a win all theory that makes partnering with someone who has BPD work flawlessly.Anyone who has studied the complex b disorders pretty much knows that self treatment is usually the only true chance they will have and I mean by that ( they seek help themselves and seek treatment).Everything else outside of that is a crap shoot on what will work or not.I have seen no evidence any which way is better except obviously is someone chooses a completely ridiculous way like abuse , profanity etc.And that is why the best one can do “in my opinion “ work on yourself and care for them and love them as best as you can (without sacrificing).

In final I’m going to bring up codependency as an addition to this tread.You know what the big difference is between codependency and compremise? When lack of respect kicks in.Codependants will tolerate endless disrespecting which does two things 1: they dissolve as a human being feeling worthless ,no confidence, no self respect and are a shell of themselves at the end 2:their own partners (BPD or nonBPD)  don’t respect them either anymore .They know their partner will allow themselves to be stepped on and abused and hence attraction is lost .Even with BPD they will look at their partner and say “ there must be something wrong with him/her to let me do these things to them).
Proper compromise: the partner will do certain things to please the other person ,but never at the expense of their own self respect .Once that line is crossed they either call out the other person and tell them,punish them , or they walk away.

Gospel !

Been there, done that... .and "never again" !

There is a saying... ."what does not kill you outright, makes you stronger by and by"... .well, I learned a whole hellava lot, and I have applied this life knowledge to my own moral, and emotional construct, and now its part of me, for keeps.

Red5

Red,

That Gospel might might be a little backward, like the idea that the descending of the railroad crossing gate makes trains appear.  

Why are people co-dependent?

Codependents generally seek a weak, younger, poorer or damaged person so that they will reap the continued validation of being the stronger one. The payoff. The reward.

Why would anyone enter into a relationship with a clearly broken, damaged person unless there was a payoff (or hope of payoff) that far exceeded the downside. What could that payoff be that is so compelling?

This is why NPD and BPD trait couplings are so common. A person with NPD traits seeks the validation and feels they are smart enough/strong enough to manage the weaker person/problems.

That is core question.

It get's more complicated when there is a marriage and children, etc. or in cases where the behaviors didn't manifest for years -  I don't want to oversimplify - but the basic issue is the payoff - the reward - not confusion about what destructive behavior is or how to end it.

Timmen Cermak, M.D. wrote Diagnosing and Treating Co-Dependence: A Guide for Professionals in 1986 and developed the candidate model for co-dependency for the DSM.

Skip

Actually a narcissist can’t stand being disrespected it’s an utter form of insult to their false image and ego.Codependants are a different breed apart and have zero to do with NPD partners .Codependants unfortunately have less esteem and confidence than the already broken “real” self image of a narcissist.NPD get involved for the validation and manipulation of a BPD until the inevitable tides turn and the BPD slowly destroys the NPD.The difference is the NPD will leave the relationship way faster than a codependent by far.

Are you saying a person with NPD traits seeks the validation and they are smart enough/strong to manage the weaker person/problems AND know when to get out?

Is the BPD/NPD coupling (clinical text below) a myth?

There is no myth that NPD:BPD flock to each other like a moth to a flame , the issue  is your mixing Codependants and narcissists.Its obvious why a narcissist would attach to a BPD and vice versa,they feed off each other from a validation standpoint and an attention standpoint.It usually always ends in utter disaster regardless , given both of their fragile egos and lack of self image rises to the occasion at some point.What me and red were discussing were bonafid 100% Codependants who lack enough self respect to leave an abusive relationship with a BPD VS compromising in a healthy way but making the hard choices when or if it comes to that ( which it usually does with BPD)

I feel this “alpha” male “beta” male theory and it’s popularization is fairly new. The theory may have been around for awhile. None of this crap was really popular in the early 2000s late 90s when I was a teen, young adult. I’d probably disregard most of the nonsense related to that If you want the truth though the Beta male ends up with the woman the alphas want more often than not. There’s plenty of threads out there where alphas are dumbfounded they got left and now their ex is with a beta permanately. However they think their ex and every beautiful woman would still rather have the “alpha” then the “beta” they chose. I have friends from back in the day that would have qualified as “alphas” sure they were smooth with woman. Basically narcissistic douches, really into themselves, I watched a few of them pick up women and they where completely egotistical, dishonest about who they really were it was interesting almost lost a lot of respect for them and deceipt that went into playing the game.  They’re mostly single now. What woman really wants a man that’s so into himself, is a fraud, and think he’s a gift, but really doesn’t care about his partner?

I would really think there’s a spectrum from extreme alpha to extreme beta, and the majority and most attractive men(personality wise) would fall in the middle of the spectrum. A hybrid of some sort some with more alpha traits and others with more beta traits not 100% either or. Of course from what I gather hardcore “alphas” think everyone less alpha then them is a “beta”. It seems like according to the theory being “beta” is also a bad thing. Again keep in mind the Betas almost always in the long run come away with the women “alphas” want, and think want them. I’d really ignore the whole idea seems like a game that immature college adults would play to see who can score most. Keep in mind their often trying to score with woman that haven’t matured and are putting themselves out their to be taken, not necessarily wholesome women. So in my opinion sure the young alpha wins among promiscuous young woman but not really in the more meaningful long term parts of life.

I’d have to say BasementDweller said a lot of useful things regarding the way woman think on this. They’re attracted to certain traits. Overall a man that can provide and can be emotionally available to them, meet their wants etc. not going to be a man that’s 100% alpha or beta.

I’d also follow the advise of the person who stated be a man and 100% invest in the relationship.  Learn to be yourself but confidently. Whether that makes you alpha or beta who cares. There was reference you you thinking that a woman in her 30s shouldn’t be out clubbing while in a relationship.  I agree someone that is moralistic and that values a relationship shouldn’t be engaging in going out and clubbing. Of course there are two sides to this coin. What some people believe is societally acceptable and what is morally acceptable. In my opinion based on my values if my wife were out clubbing on the weekends and getting drunk she would no longer be my wife, and she knows this and vise versa she’s not ok with me doing it either. So this isn’t really a Male/female thing. It’s whether you think that is appropriate behavior for someone in a committed relationship So if this is something your SO is doing and you don’t think it’s right you’ll have to adress this but from a reasonable point of view. Don’t feel guilty if you think it’s innapropriate, it might not be a control/insecurity thing but a moralistic thing. If she was clubbing when you met her and now you think you can change her this is partly your problem though as you’ve already appeared to accept the behavior from the onset of the relationship. Personally I’d take no interest from the get go someone that exhibits a a clubbing life style. Of course if she’s introduced the behavior out of the blue adress it.

Red pill I had to google that. Some of it seems legit just as some femmenist things seem legit. Keep in mind however many of those movements are involved with over the top one sided views. Just as a strong over the top femmenist that subscribes to every femmenist theory can be overwhelming to a man, I’d say that subscribing to every over the top red pill theory would be overwhelming to women.

I almost forgot the last part to answer your quote why would anyone enter a relationship that’s clearly broken unless there was a payoff? The answer to this one is pretty straight foreword .There usually “isn’t “ an apparent “clearly broken” person at first site .Thats the main issue with BPD isn’t it? At first we are not expecting or evaluating the person in front of us looking for the red flags or a complex b issue .We are just trying to get to know them and it just so happens they are excellent at manipulation,mirroring call it what you will.Where codependency comes flying into the room is when we decide to remain in said relationship and get our respect trampled and do nothing but take it.Not everything or everyone wants “payoff”. , but being treated as an equal isn’t payoff or selfishness it’s the requirement to be treated like a human being (at a minimum).

You say your respect has been trampled over and over, your GF is a liar, cheater. You know this a few weeks in. You knew it when you broke up. Why are you in your relationship? Do any of these "conditions" apply to you?

Now you are just flipping around my answer to suit your agenda  but I’ll answer your question since it is valid to an extent .Youve read many of my last posts these few days , see a trend ? The trend is simple , I was broken and took all that disrespect at the beginning did I not? And where did that get me? Two breakups from me and one from her ? And then you wonder why I’ve taken to dramatic change? Now you have your answer , never again will that be accepted in my new mindset and frame  never . It’s called learn from your failure(s) and that sir I did ,just took a tad longer than I would have liked .

So questioning my different approach to life is everyone’s privilege thanks to the free world we live in.You can even question or doubt the co cents behind it, but until I see a wiser better alternative to the road I’ve taken , I’ll gladly keep driving down this one.It will always always come down to the obvious path for me  going forward ( focus on yourself first , the rest will follow and if can’t keep up it’s not worth it). Having been deeply involved with someone with BPD permanently took a piece of me away , that piece today I’d like to call gullibility.Having that taken way like an appendix may indeed have ruined my chances  of finding a perfect mate ( although I don’t believe in unicorns), what it gave me in return is a High definition vision of this foggy world we live in.
I don’t know of any blind person today who would refuse the gift of being able to see again do you? Knowing what’s an obvious “red flag” or “ sh$$ test” or manipulative tactic is a new skill that if I could package and sell I could retire by the weekend... .this I owe to my BPD partner .

     I don't think you answered either question.

Sure I did I pretty much told you I was a Codependant at the beginning of my relationship and now that’s thankfully been put to rest .

Neither the words "co-dependent" or "put to rest" appear in your post answer... .and I'm not really asking about things from 10 months ago.

I've read all of this thread and I'm trying to get past the hyperbole and understand where the "rubber meets the road".

You said "codependents (codependency) tolerate endless disrespecting". You have described your relationship and having endless disrespecting (repeated disrespect for 9 months and continuing all the way up until the beginning of this thread), lying, and infidelity.

You also talked about NPD and CoDependent reasons people get in relationships with endless disrespecting, lying, and infidelity.

You said there are "100 stories on here [bpdfamily]" of "So many good people with big hearts slowly being consumed by their SO".

So let's connect the dots... .you are in a relationship which you, your parents, and your friends (according to your last thread) describe as endless disrespecting, and with lying, and infidelity.   You are being slowly consumed by your SO. Your friends said you looked sick last week.

My questions are:

Why are you in your relationship?

Do any of these "conditions" apply to you?

I’m in my relationship because we had a rehash after our month break on acceptable behaviors and boundaries.We promised each other things we would and would not do anymore and since then minus some infantile stuff she hasn’t done anything like before .Sonthats why we tried again. As for codependency,no I’m not that way anymore I learnt my lessons although very poorly and took a long time .

Do I have this right?

Q: Why are you in your relationship?
 

A:	Because I have a verbal agreement to end the 10 months of endless disrespecting, and with lying, infidelity, bar hopping, drugs, and BPD which starts  August 13th, 2018. I am in recycle #4 in 10 months.

Q: Do any of these "conditions" apply to you?
 

A:	Yes, I was codependent but that ended on the same day, August 13th, 2018. I am no longer "dying as an individual, no exaggeration" as I said on August 12th. I am changing.

From your earlier posts in this thread, the change is: I now understand that woman especially when ovulating will be able to sniff out the stronger (let’s call it alpha ) male in the room and be attracted to him physically. She will pick up on the stronger character,more calm level headed emotionally stable man with good physical attributes (proven fact)

I'm taking care of myself first and investing less emotionally - better myself , enhance myself, value myself , even love myself. .  I believe a woman will "love AND respect a man if he is a pillar of strength and expects nothing in return. I'm seeing this happen in front of my eyes with my girlfriend."

As for relationship tools for a pwBPD? "I use no tactics! I react and behave the same with her as I would with other women or men."

As for any the future occurrences of disrespecting, lying, infidelity: "It takes a hardened frame of mind (mindset) to be able to look into the eyes of someone you love very much (BPD or no BPD) and say to yourself  “I can walk away from this person if they cross heavy boundaries like trust, respect".

Yup pretty much ,will it work out? Who knows

It's an interesting perspective after 500 posts here and 1,700 member responses.  

Just to give you another perspective, I'll try to summarize what members have be saying, with frankness, so that you will have two summaries to consult in the future. Some of this will be a little hard to hear and it may takes weeks to absorb, but I share it to help you. Please take your time with it. I encourage you to share both of these posts (as written, not paraphrased) with your therapist.

Have you made progress?

Yes. You have learned that extreme and disproportionate reactions when exposed to moderate levels of disrespect don't work well with people and you have given up the bullying and the breaking up/withdrawl reactions. This is a huge accomplishment.

You still have these feelings, but you are finding ways to channel them away from your girlfriend. You are seeking ways to truly tame them. You are realistic that this will take time. In the last two weeks you have connected with the thought that getting in touch with your masculine inner strength, self confidence will help you - that working on improving yourself is a good place to channel your energy - and releasing some of the expectations you place on your girlfriend will improve things. This is also very significant. Very good.

Your girlfriend has been positively responsive to each step in this journey. From her perspective you have become less domineering, less volatile, less needy. There is still a nervousness there and she has been developing tools to handle you (validation and reassurance). She has said as much. This is helping. It is also good.

I would question your belief that your discovery of your inner alpha male in the last two weeks and shifting your focus to her reptilian needs for a dominate mate is helpful. Her image of you is the one you have built over the last 10 months (not the last 10 days). I suspect that if she finds out that you are aligning with a cult that is centered around exploiting women sexually, no matter how you try to dress it up as character development, she will lose respect for you. As one member said, there are better resources for connecting with your inner man.

Is the relationship on a realistic trajectory for success?

When I look at your plan above, its very good in the sense that you see that you need to make some significant changes if things are going to get better.

At the same time, the plan doesn't look like a partnership. The plan relies heavily on her agreement to adhere to values and boundaries that you have set, some of which conflict with her values and desires. There doesn't appear to be an effort to find compromise or attend to her values. This is also the fourth time you have fully excused what you feel are relationship "deal breakers" and saying "this next time I will walk".

I also think there is a lot of "posing for the members of bpdfamily in your plan". People here invested a lot of time to help you. The rejection of the tools taught here seems to be more about devaluing the site because some members have triggered your disrespect sensitivities in the process of trying to help you see yourself. There is an undertone of hostility in parts of this thread and your previous thread. Hopefully, part of being a better man will be to become more understanding and empathetic and to better learn to de-escalate conflict (tools taught here) rather than escalate.

Why is my reaction/fears to perceived disrespect so debilitating and so present in my thinking and future plans?

It's likely you are on the narcissism spectrum (not necessary NPD, but with traits). This is not a terminal thing or a criticism, many members are depressed and many on on the narcissistic spectrum (or other spectrums). Although many people use these terms as an insult, these characterizations exist primarily to help people understand themselves and others better and identify things they can do to make their lives more fulfilling. Not attending to these deep rooted nonconstructive thought patterns will have a price.  Just as it has a price for people with BPD traits".

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This is why you have these extreme and disproportionate (debilitating) reactions when exposed to moderate levels of disrespect. These extreme reactions are narcissistic wounds. You have reported them as dying as an individual. You friends and family have expressed concern for your health and wellbeing.

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When these wounds manifest, your reaction is all consuming and often results in distorted thinking and self-sabotaging actions. Remember when you were consumed with thoughts that your girlfriend was having a fling with another man in the 1st-2nd week following her abortion. This led you to do counter productive things.

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This is why your first reaction to any conflict is to dive deep into why you are superior and how she is inferior. You list your worldly attributes. You then detail her wide ranging failures as a mother, daughter, friend, housekeeper, and career person, and jump on her worthless friends , drunkenness, sexual promiscuity, brokenness

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You have often changed your story to support your feelings of woundedness. When you are upset with her, you tell of her sleeping with other men - when things cool off, you reluctantly retract this.  You have cycled through this 4 or five times.

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You struggle to see her side of life - empathy. Remember when you were unable to understand or emotionally support her when she became pregnant and had her abortion and didn't understand her standoffishness afterward.

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Your recent discovery of new found enlightenment has come with a very clear tone of heightened superiority toward others. Over other members, the hundreds who you now feel sorry for/pity their weakness compared to you. Over women in general, who are best understood as breeding stock that can be scored by appealing to their primal instincts. Over pwBPD traits, who are broken and to be kept around as long as they can follow the rules.

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This is why you have never been able to answer the basic questions of why you are interested in your girlfriend who clearly has different priorities and a lifestyle to you. The only positive things you have had to say about her is that her looks are 8.5 and she is 10 years younger. Look at your struggle with the question even in this thread with Reply #45. She is more than that.

I hope this helps.

Knowing our deep weaknesses is the first step to correcting them. I think you have started down this path, but be careful to not make it a superficial journey or trade on set of bad habits for another.

Skip I’m not a parrot that’s going to keep processing the same information for you on a different plate ,if you haven’t figured out what I’ve been saying or miss matching information, best thing I can suggest focus on someone who needs it better on these forums ... .I’m doing pretty damn good lately,floaters are off so I can swim on my own.Ive been answering people who posted on my tread is all I’m doing .