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Moderation Note:  This thread is a continuation of PART 1 which was locked as it had reached its post limit.  PART 1 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328283.0;all


Today I received this from my W:

"I choose never to forget the good times we have had together and the lovely things we have done, the places we have been. Nothing is ever wasted. I always wanted it to work. I wanted nothing more than a happy (realistically happy) family and marriage. I felt it appropriate to say that today (rainbow emoji)."

I feel like replying something like... .but likely wont:

"Only we as individuals are able to ascertain whether or not we did everything possible to provide an environment where 'happy' could be nurtured. Only we have the ability to honestly self reflect on whether or not we fell short in our behaviours and thoughts"

Any thoughts on her message? I have a feeling it's a way of her acknowledging her recollection of the past is changing whilst preserving the narrative i.e. I am recalling a lot of fun times we had together but since I know you have abused me I cannot change my current path.

What would be the purpose of a response?

FF

Because because... .which is why I've not responded... .although is ignoring it invalidating?

It could be.

However... .many times they will "feel" invalidated... regardless of what you say.

What would be the purpose of validating her anyway?

FF

I think your response sounds a bit invalidating. It's kinda preachy and also falls into too much heavy stuff via text.

I think it is OK to acknowledge the message- not from the standpoint of whether it will invalidate her or not to not respond but from a general sense of courtesy. It's rude to not respond to a message that someone took the time to write out. It isn't a hostile message- that one should probably ignore.

Imagine if someone who was a friend wrote it ( it's not something a friend would send, but one doesn't have the level of drama with a friend. Respond politely as if talking to a friend. That keeps you from adding to drama. There's a bunch of drama in her message " I always wanted it to work... ." don't bite that one.

"Thank you for this message.  I am glad to know you recall the good times and wanted our marriage to work. "

Leave it like that. Any " I think "anything in your defense falls in to JADE. This acknowledges that you heard her. If she wants to know how you feel, she can ask you and that discussion is best done face to face, not through a text.

I like that, and I kinda concur that not responding feels aggressive when she isn't trying to be. My only hesitation is that she's seeking approval... .which obviously I don't approve of what she is doing... .and validating the "wanted our marriage to work" somehow validates the unwritten "you did everything necessary for it to work" or more importantly "you didn't do things that guaranteed it wouldn't work".

Then leave it out


"Thank you for this message.  I am glad to know you recall the good times "


Even though you don't approve of what she is doing- no matter what happens, the two of you share children and so will always need to communicate with each other. You can set the tone by responding as if she was an acquaintance, no drama, just being civil and not getting into drama. Divorce won't end drama between you as you will be discussing children and settling things. Being civil, but not condoning may tone the drama down.

What Notwendy just wrote is exactly what I was going to say.

Exactly...

This is a "strategic shift".  I get it that you want the marriage to work... the OM to go away... .to repair things.

We don't know what the future holds, but for now I recommend the "strategic focus" be on the most calm coparenting that you can do.

FF

Appreciated... .that's in the ether

Oh wow... .it's my 17th wedding anniversary today!

Happy Anniversary.  I hope it is a good one for you.

Fingers crossed!

Wicker Man

PS I wanted to take a moment and thank you for all that you have shared in your posts on various threads.  Your point of view has helped me gain quite a lot of perspective and understanding.  Your posts are consistently thoughtful, compassionate, and helpful.

I do my best Wicker Man... .I do my best in pretty much everything I put my hand to.

Big lump in my throat sitting here at work chewing through the thought that it's my wedding anniversary today. A marriage that I did try my best at, where I was a good husband, perfect, no, good, yes. I always put her first, yet here I am begging with God to send a lightening bolt of epiphany to her to realise that I'm not the man her mind has molded me into.

1 Corinthians 13:7-8
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

MAKE IT STOP

I'm sorry Enabler. I know you are hurting.

Sometimes that epiphany may or may not arrive in the time span we hope for. I know you didn't want this to happen. We don't always understand the big picture . If I were to guess, what may happen,  unless she figures out that you are a good husband soon, she might learn if her fantasy life with OM turns out to be a dysfunctional wreck. I don't wish anything bad for her, but a disordered person brings their disorder into any relationship.

It's sad when this affects the whole family. I wish you strength no matter how this turns out.

Hi Enabler,

Catching up - so sorry to read about these developments.

Regarding your W's allegations of abusive behaviors, I wonder if it would be worth you looking at Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?". I thought about your W's allegations when I was reading this. The author has been working in counselling programs for abusive men for many years - in fact he started off one of the first ones. I know this is written for women, but he has many insights into the mindset and behavior patterns of abusive men. Some of the key features are control, a sense of entitlement, and disrespect.

Now, I know the book says that abusive men behave differently in public from what they do inside the abusive relationship where nobody sees. But Bancroft noted that when they are talking revealingly about themselves under stress, they give out a set of justifications and explanations for their behaviors and themselves which are quite noticeable. You have been posting here revealingly about yourself under stress, and as per Wicker Man's post above, you don't sound at all like you have the mindset and attitudes described in that book. Unless you have carefully crafted and maintained a fake compassionate and helpful persona for use on this website in order to enlist us as your own legion of flying monkeys (and how would that even help you if we were just validating an imaginary person), you aren't even close to the attitude that Bancroft's clients are taking towards their partners.

I wonder if your W is working from a tick-list of abusive behaviors or a more detailed book like this. You might see examples of some things you have done at some times in the book, and I think that nearly every man or indeed woman would. One of Bancroft's main points is that context and pattern and the underlying attitudes and mindset are really important to include when considering whether or not a particular incident or behavior "makes" someone an abuser. You said just above that you always put your wife first - that's one example of something that is the reverse of an abuser's attitude to their partner as described by Bancroft.

I think reading this book might help arm you with some sound material to put up against any allegations that your W persists with, and also demonstrate that you have considered and researched her allegations seriously, rather than dismissing them out of hand as the rantings of a crazy woman, which dismissal could itself be cited as indicative of an abusive attitude. You might even want to start a conversation with her on the topic of abuse on the basis of the book, but maybe just stick to what I did with my H, and don't actually give the book, just recite whole chunks of it! At any rate, I think it would help you to read it and get a good understanding of what she is trying to put on you and some ideas of how to respond.

I hope that helps, I will be praying for you.

BetterLanes x

Thanks you Betterlanes, this sounds like an interesting book that I'd like to read. Maybe the idea of framing what is and isn't abusive would be helpful to concrete my assertion that I am not abusive as much as the assertion that my W is abusive. I will not shy away that I have done, and said abusive things, I am sure we all have in the heat of battle. I have sensitivities, maybe some of which are as a result of 21 years with my wife... .no excuses, I need to learn them and need to continue to address them.

I'd love to have the mindset which lends itself to being manipulative and contorting other peoples view of reality it would make my job a lot easier as I'd be far better at bluffing. Unfortunately I am a terrible liar, I have more 'tells' than I can think of and I think I go bright red with guilt every-time I tell even the smallest white lie... .hence why I tend to be brutally honest and confrontational... .until the last year (BPD Training). I'm highly susceptible to deflection as I will instantly assume and want to validate whether or not I was being out of line. As FF said on another thread, his T trained him to be comfortable with other people being angry, and comfortable with other people being angry with him. 

One thing I really struggle with is the bizarre and unbelievable/irrelevant excuses. Again, last night she was pursuing me to sit down and discuss a finance spreadsheet for the divorce. I have not done this spreadsheet yet, primarily on the back of the fact that there have been so many false starts in this divorce process where I have started the work that I have essentially given up "being ready". When I stated the facts of the delays, using dates and times of practically every element the excuses just poured out, none of which had a meaningful basis. She accused me of attacking her, to which I replied that I was sorry she felt that I was attacking her , I was trying to just state the facts... .no it was not kind (but neither was it unkind), no it was not sensitive to her feelings but it was the cold hard facts and I left her to work her way through it... .or not as the case was.

I have to say that I am utterly unhappy at the moment, desperately, to the core dissatisfied with my current existence. I have chosen to endure it, and endure it I will, but it's thoroughly unpleasant on multiple levels.

Enabler

 

Hang in there Enabler, this season will pass.

Like you said in the first part of this thread, she is interpreting reality through a variety of lenses, telling herself stories about you and then picking out evidence to reinforce them. She might have to be making excuses and justifications to herself in her head a lot of the time, maybe that's why they come spilling out so easily. I can see how facts like the ones you had could be a real problem for her!

Praying for your hurt heart,

BL x

I dare say that she doesn’t want to tell me the real reason why she has delayed and procrastinated for so long, maybe it would require too much guilt and shame or maybe, just maybe it would reveal weakness in her resolve which she is so desperate to maintain to ensure she ‘gets the job done’... .since I’m her mind I have ‘talked her around’ so many times before.

This evening triggered emotional memories. She very politely suggested to the kids that they ask me how my day had gone, something I might add she rarely did during the relationship and was always a point of hurt for me that she never seemed to care how my day was. Anyway, the kids ask and I tell them that I had an interesting meeting with a very angry man, they asked and I told them the highlights. They lost interest pretty quickly which was to be expected. W was still engaged and continued the conversation, however she couldn’t remain focussed, she became adgetated by things around her, she was distracted and it felt as though she was utterly uninterested in what I had to say. I genuinely believe that she did want to listen but you could almost hear the hum of her emotional adgetation in the comversation dynamic. And here’s the thing... .I rarely did ever get to tell her about my day, I rarely got the oppprtunity to share and I rarely got to teach her about my world. She had very little interest in learning about the world outside her bubble of feelings and would just claim “I don’t get any of your work stuff”. She has spent years telling me I don’t listen to her, I don’t understand her, and I’m many respects I clearly didn’t understand her till I found BPD, but it wasn’t for not trying. I knew her role at work inside out, I knew the characters, the trials and tribulations. I wanted to know these things because they were important to her, I wanted to walk along side her in her life journey, offer advice (not always wanted or appreciated)  and support. I didn’t try to control these things for her, I have given a different perspective but I wanted to learn, I wanted connection with her and she appreciated that... .it’s odd to sense how little she really knows about me, as though it was unimportant to her and maybe it wasn’t.

So, I now reached the ripe old age of 40 as of yesterday    . Unlike some I don't see this as a problem and I'm not about to have a meltdown (again)... .it's like being 30 but with more unnecessary ear and nose hair. So, yesterday was always tee'd up to be a bit on the weird side, friends all busy with work, kids at school and no one really set up to make a natural fuss of me on my big day. I'd planned to go for a long hike in the local countryside and then take the kids out for cocktails and food after school. anything different would just be an added bonus.

So I wake up to a fanfare of breakfast, presents, balloons and banners. Kids were on fire and STBExW was doing a great job of helping the kids make a fuss of me. She'd come up with an excellent present idea which was an experience I could enjoy with the kids which was way more meaningful than some bit of expensive tat. So, she asks if I want some company on my walk... .I respond "I'm totally cool either way, fine with going on my own but more than happy for you to join me". So, she decides to come along... .I can't deny my anxiety was through the roof at this point as I wasn't sure whether or not I had the ability to stay grounded for 6 hours of weirdness... .

We start walking and I fire up the conversation topic by saying "So how's your world?". I've not had a conversation about 'her world' in 18m+ so the response to this could make or break the walk. Anyway, we start talking about her Christian work in a local prison. It's a very interesting role as a pastoral assistant and she meets a lot of very very sick people who are in a HIGHLY emotionally charged environments when they are HIGHLY sensitive to emotions. Many of the inmates are in prison because of their impulsive/angry/violent/manipulative/deceitful behaviour and I don't think it's unfair to say that many sound like they would get an instant BPD diagnosis if they were ever assessed. There's a huge amount of self harm and a huge number of suicide attempts. So... .anyway... .back to the conversation. I listened intently to my W, asked very few questions and avoided any kind of conjecture. I just listened with no judgement and asked questions I thought might prompt further discussion and keep things on a tact that hugged the emotional difficulties / therapy options / recovery line of discussion. Ultimately I was keeping the discussion as close as possible to her... .without being about her. She discussed in great detail how the women were very deceitful, yet they believed their own lies, they were manipulative, they took no responsibility, often they had very painful personal backgrounds, they would lash out when things didn't go their way and they would have extreme emotional reactions to small disappointments, how the women were so self-centered... .among other things. I have to say that I thought at points she was going to make/see parallels about herself in what she was saying... .but nope, nothing, zip, jack, nada. Not one muscle of her body language gave me a single wink that she felt that any such behaviours had any relation to her in the slightest. We spent a very very large percentage of the walk focused on her life, her jobs, her holiday. She asked me very very little about me or my thoughts on things and I only turned things to my feelings as and when it felt appropriate. Yes, I was the one who was asking her or stimulating conversation but it didn't feel much like she had any interest in asking. 'The relationship' was not discussed nor was the future other than small glances of indication that things might be different going forward. It was as though someone had wound back the clock 2 years, replaced me with a more emotionally intelligent person and we were just going for a leisurely hike as a 'normal' married couple, we laughed, we joked, we discussed and we enjoyed. I'd like to say it was nice (and it was), and a less naive me would be more excited about the experience, but I'm kinda indifferent about it, since in the grand scheme of things I don't think it changes anything, she won't see it as meaningful and I don't think I should even guess as to her motivations for coming and enjoying.

We had a great evening with the kids as a whole family, everyone was happy laughing and joking with each other. A small dysregulation by her in the restaurant due to getting sauce on her top (and claiming she needed to go home immediately, then refused to eat) was handled in a totally different way to the past, I brushed past it, continued to engage the kids and let her get over it. She later apologized at home about her 'moaning' to which I responded 'these things happen', she got slightly annoyed by that comment believing I meant about the sauce and got defensive... .I quickly corrected and said "I didn't mean the top, I meant the moaning"... .she went to bed.

Yesterday was what it was, it was nice respite from the otherwise relentless monotony of relationship disintegration. It's a shame to have these brief glimpses of how life could return to some semblance of normality, how my new skills could make the relationship better if she just allowed 'us' the opportunity to repair. The effort on her behalf was appreciated none the less and she made what could have been a bleak day very enjoyable.  The weirdness continues!

Hi Enabler,

Happy birthday for yesterday! Wow, that must have been quite a strange experience, and also a nice respite as you say!

Do you think this has something to do with the message from your W at the start of this thread about remembering the happy times? What she did seems to fit very well with that, she was creating a happy day for the family, and even actually for you as a couple by joining you on the walk. Maybe the message was sent as part of her thought process regarding your upcoming milestone birthday, rather than coming out of the blue like it seemed? She knew the birthday was coming and the kids knew it was coming, and for her to ignore and opt out of it would have been strange and also make her into the "bad person" in the family, so she must have been considering what to do about it for a while. She was most likely in the process of organizing the birthday gift and fanfare when she sent you the message (or at any rate I would have had to be, maybe she is happier with last minute arrangements than I am!).

BetterLanes x

Maybe although we worked out that the message was sent on our wedding anniversary... .something I totally overlooked. She very much likes to 'hedge her bets' and see how she feels on the day. I assume this maybe why she left it so late to offer to come.

It was a nice experience, and I should probably take little other than just that away from the day. It was nice to be part of a caring cohesive family for a day at the very least, but I can't deny it adds to my confusion and personal frustration that given the evidence of what could be okay... .why can we/she not make it so. I suppose what compounds the frustration is that had we have both been atheists with no belief in the sanctity of marriage I could somewhat deal with the idea that we didn't need to 'die trying'... .but we do, we always have and it's one of the cornerstones of her outward personal values is that she is a Christian, I am a Christian, we got married in a church because we both believed we wanted our marriage to be consecrated by God... .and yet here we are, able to attain 'normal' yet going down a path of great destruction, away from the prescribed way of a Christian couple. Even if I had wavering beliefs especially after my father died... .she didn't yet she is the one that feels she doesn't need to 'die trying'.

Odd... .

You did so well with your new skills, Enabler.    It's an interesting place to find yourself being "meta" to the process of participating in a relationship. And good on you for asking those questions and getting her talking about her work with inmates. It sure is amazing when they are unable to notice that what they're observing in others is exactly what they're doing themselves. Good job having the tolerance not to try and drive that point home, frustrating though it was.  

Oh and happy birthday. 

It was nice to connect on a level and hopefully it was clear that I understood the mechanics of what is going on, even from the perspective of why inmates stop taking mood stabilising medication when they leave prison (bpdfamily video on schizophrenia). It was a very interesting conversation. I also got the opportunity to congratulate her on a more genuine level regarding her new job, we talked about the challenges in the job and some of the characters. Certainly from my perspective there was a huge backlog of her world I needed to catch up on. This granularity is the stuff that feeds a relationship, information sharing, understanding and appreciation... .starving the relationship of this has meant starving any connection, I guess this is intentional because she doesn’t want any chance of connection.

It's good that you're strengthening the friendship part of your relationship, since whatever she is planning in the future, you will still be coparenting the children.

And you're leaving the door open to a resumption of more possibilities, should the relationship with OM crash and burn.

The later situation would be a horrific decision to make.

Enabler,

Have read a lot of your story.

My experience isnt in a marriage situation, and for me, it was.

After we separated last March, continued to see one another, then, october, i was dropped... .

During that time, i was reading a lot on relationships.  I found divorce busters.  The book.

I have the 2nd of the series... .
There is information about what one person can do... .in a relationship... .it also talks about dire situations, pending divorce... .somehow it is a comforting book... .

just sharing.  Thank you for what you have shared w me... .and many others,  j

Hey Juju,

I read the preview of the book last night. I certainly like the mantra of his program of less analysis and more actions. I also found it interesting about the knock on effects of a divorce. I'm acutely aware of these impacts, especially on the children and certainly at the forefront of my mind when doing everything I can to avoid divorce. I can see no good coming out of ripping our little family to smithereens but there's very little I can do to stop that. TBH I didn't find much comfort in the first section reading what carnage is likely to lay in the divorces wake and the long term damage it's likely to cause to my children... .Not one bit.

Telling doesn't work... .showing does. I've decided all to late it's the only way. You can state the facts  but you might as well be beating her with a stick telling her what she's doing wrong or how she "got it wrong". My guess is that the second part of the book (non-preview) teaches how to take a different path, make unilateral decisions to 'go a different way', not engage in conflict and not perpetuate the conflict. I'm all for this.

Enabler,

That book helped me, and there is reasearch behind it.

Hi Enabler,


I'll put this over on your thread. Your relationship timeline is actually spookily similar to mine in terms of the timing and circumstances of the major events. Maybe that's why I noticed this difference.

Would you say that your W "found God" (from the above quote) subsequent to your marriage - in terms of having and/or expressing a "born-again" level of conversion experience? Indicators of this might include a sudden increase in Bible study or Christian reading, joining or getting serious about involvement in a new church, attending an Alpha course or equivalent. You said earlier on this thread that you were both Christians when you got married to the extent of wanting to marry in church, and that her faith hasn't wavered, but has your W had an experience since marriage that for her represented a step change in her level of Christian commitment?

If that is the case, I wonder if your W and/or the OM might be using this passage from 1 Corinthians 7 to inform or justify some of her actions and attitudes.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

-  I have seen this passage read (indeed by Chuck Swindoll) to mean that someone who has been born again after a marriage is not required to remain in the marriage, since they are a new creation. Of course in Paul's day the majority of Christians weren't Christians in name only, for some kind of social reason, vaguely because they were brought up that way, etc, since becoming a Christian was a choice that had a massive impact on your life circumstances. It is easier to apply this passage in the situation where someone who had never even heard of Christianity hears the teachings and declares themselves to be a "believer" and joins the very identifiable community of other believers. It is harder to do that in a "Christian country" where you could spend your whole life going to church without ever really having a conversion experience.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if this passage might be a thing for your W, and if she could be looking out for evidence to validate it. So that would be any evidence that you are actually in the category of "unbeliever" at least compared to her, plus any evidence that you are not willing to live with her and in the process of leaving. If that's so, you could try to avoid showing her anything she could interpret as that evidence and/or try to deliberately show her the opposite. My own born-again conversion experience was at university while I was in a relationship with my H but before marriage, and I actually did have a relationship-ending conversation with him after and because of that experience following this same line of reasoning. (What can I say? I'm bad at following through  )

BetterLanes x

Thanks Betterlanes,

Prior to university I moved from a Baptist Church where I had grown up to a more evangelical church. It was around the time that there was something called the Toronto movement... .basically a huge outpouring of the Holy Spirit globally. It was a weird old time and I had some pretty intense Christian experiences that I am not 100% sure I was ready for at the time but have stuck with me as 'unexplainable' and really been cornerstones of me being unable to completely discount God with science or rational thought. Being thrown over 3 rows of chairs, landing on the floor and staying in a paralyzed state for 15 minutes, laughing so hard I was on the floor in hysterics for 10 minutes (on my own in the middle of a sermon) because someone 'was told' to came into the church with a trumpet and sound it half way through the sermon... .no one else was laughing and I am definitely NOT THAT GUY. Speaking in tongues multiple times. Anyway, all pretty weird stuff.

I went to university where I met W in the first week. She had been bought up going to church through Girls brigade and it was meaningful to her but I don't think she would have said that she was a Christian other than by name.

Christianity was important to both of us, enough to want to get married in a church and both of us agreed and understood that we wanted to get married in front of God. We didn't attend church together nor did we refer to ourselves as practicing Christians post the marriage until about 2004 when she did an Alpha course after her sister did one. She would say that this was her born again moment... .in faith only and was still not 'living it'. I attended church with her on occasions but looking back the experiences pre-university had somewhat meant that I was trying to fight what I had experienced rather than it bring me closer. I would say that we attended church more regularly in around 2006-7 to the point where we were attending regularly together at one church.

Her faith grew and grew and grew and grew, mine stalled especially when my father was sick. During my fathers illness she started attending a mixture of a super conservative local church and a super evangelical CofE spin off called HTB. She too had some powerful spiritual experiences and also spoke in tongues whilst at church with OM. They very much shared some deeply emotional, powerful and intimate Christian experiences... .often whilst I was at home looking after our 3 kids. It clashed with a time that I was rejecting Christianity on scientific and cognitive bias grounds... .or at least attempting to.

I don't want to belittle my wife's Christian experiences BUT... .she experiences emotions more intensely than say me... .I find church very emotional, always have, always will. Some of the more evangelical services and worship are VERY VERY powerfully emotional. I mean people cry at a Madonna concert, I think there's something missing from someone who doesn't feel at least something when they go to a church service with 3000 people and a worship band to rival Live Aid. Not to take away from God, but I'm pretty sure some of the powerful experiences she has had are at least in part to dissociation and her liable emotions. I now feel like I'm in some way detracting from the power of God and the Holy spirit, even blaspheming... .but that's where I am. I think she feels emotions more powerfully, she goes to emotionally powerful events and feels like she is overcome by the holly spirit. Her and her OM take this feeling and interpret it to be 'signs' which reinforce their other views that they are being filled up for purpose, to challenging their marital bondage i.e. that God condones their relationship because he has put them together to have powerful experiences to be filled with the spirit to enter the battle against... .ummmm... .me. This conflicts with scripture, but they are finding work arounds for that, because the the 'messages' and the 'spiritual power they have been given' is 'telling them' they are right.

I don't say this lightly in the slightest. It feels horribly wrong to diminish her faith, a faith that I believe in... .but, I think her emotional intensity is clouding her judgement. Other examples of dissociation would be her interpretation of a very intense "feeling of detachment" at her Grandmothers funeral (they were very very close as she was her go-to when her mother was being horrible to her)... .her interpretation was that she was filled with the spirit. When she was at the top of a mountain a year ago she saw an angel... .this happened to be a time when she was very very scared because she was on her own at the top of a mountain and fog came in and she was lost. After that same trip she came back to the house which was empty and she believed the house was haunted and there was an evil presence. She sat in the corner trembling. I believe this was actually abandonment fears.

This sounds like I have over processed things.

Hi Enabler,

No I don't think you have over-processed at all! I can see how emotional intensity would set someone up to respond very strongly to religious experiences. Especially as you say the deliberately emotionally powerful events that lots of churches now put on. Even the word "worship" would now mainly mean emotive Christian music to a lot of people, although you can worship God without saying anything at all. Heck, it even works on me  

You're not blaspheming to point out that many modern Christian events (including the away weekend of the Alpha course) include at least some activities that will create or reinforce intense feelings. That doesn't at all (as you know) mean "it's all a setup" and the feelings are all there is to it. I've also had unexplainable supernatural experiences and evidence of God's hand in the events of my life, and also heard about this type of thing from people I trust. My H from a standpoint of nominal Christianity got very angry at God during and after his father's terminal illness (he died maybe a year before my H and I met), although I don't think he ever completely stopped believing there was a God. I think that normally would affect someone's faith as you say it did for you.

Just like you point out, though, scripture has priority. Emotional experiences and signs and words from God shouldn't substitute for sound Bible teaching (although they often do) and they shouldn't be used to justify things that contradict God's written word (although they often are). What you wrote sounds like a very plausible theory, your W has very much hooked into the emotional experiences because of her tendency to this, and the OM is strongly mixed in with the whole experience and associated with it, and you have read that he reinforces to your W this association between their faith experiences and their human relationship. Can I say "unholy mess" about this? As you say none of this means that faith isn't real, or your W doesn't have a strong faith, or it's wrong to have emotional experiences in connection with your faith, but there is a very real danger of misleading yourself and/or being deliberately misled by others on the basis of the emotional experiences. "By their fruit you will recognize them."

BetterLanes x

PS I believe I saw an angel once, although I wasn't afraid at the time, and I do believe in them generally. I also used to be very scared as a child/teen of being alone in the house or even upstairs on my own, which I understood as a fear of ghosts and a sensation of a malevolent presence. Oddly I would never experience these feelings outdoors, even at night. Unless your W actually saw an evil presence, I'd guess she experienced some similar feelings. Maybe it is abandonment.

I believe that emotional experiences with God are important and often a way that he shudders through us... .although in many respects this could easily be explained by a chemical (Hormones) rush from some kind of stimulus as well... .however we have been blessed by free will, we have been blessed with an endocrine system that allows us to generate our own feelings from pretty much anything. We have an obligation to self filter with biblical cross reference and teaching what is and isn't in line with Gods will.  Many Churches as well as secular populism place a lot of emphasis on 'feeling' and individual interpretation, and not as much emphasis on learning, teaching, morals and values. We're allowing and in fact encouraging individual interpretation of scripture such that anyone can look through their own cloudy lens and see what they want to see and gain validation for what they want validated. This is why spiritual bypassing is so dangerous in the Church. God does fill a void of emptiness, but we have a moral obligation to fix the holes.

I wrote this to my W back in 2016 just after we separated and she sent me a letter trying to explain her extraordinary relationship with OM.

"You have taken external inputs and rattled them around between yourselves agreeing to whatever each other said in a self-perpetuating spiral of spiritual extremism. The whole concept of a group of people design to critique thoughts, especially about deep philosophical and religious topics was thrown out the window and in fact actively avoided despite the suggestion by other people including myself. I cannot judge whether or not God is speaking to you or whether or not it is in fact your own thoughts which you justify as the word of God in some delusion of grandeur. However, and again I’m no expert but if I was God and I wrote the Bible and I was speaking to you directly over the last 9m I think I’d have said STOP THIS WITH OM NOW."

Also... ."be kind to yourself" is something we hear a lot about on the boards... .what about the times when you actually need to be really tough on yourself because you're making a complete dogs breakfast of things. I'll put my hand up and say that my reactions to my W's chaos were idiotic and my attempts to control my kids chaos was idiotic... .I needed to be VERY hard on myself and I was, I needed that slap round the face and kick up the @ss. I took myself aside and had a stern word with myself, now I feel like I'm in a place where I do deserve to be kind to myself because I've got my own house in order.

Sometimes it feels like we're too quick to tell people to be kind to themselves when actually they need to harshly critique their own behaviors.

Hi Enabler,

+1 for self-filtering. With hormones vs. God my understanding is it's just both - so God is working through our natural biological mechanisms. It's like with the miracles in the Bible, you can explain a great deal of them away as convenient/coincidental/misinterpreted natural phenomena (and resort to "mass hallucination" for the rest) if that's how you want to handle it. Or you can believe that this was God working through the things he created and owns.

Regarding "be kind to yourself" on the boards, I think there are two things I'd want to say about this -

(1) I get the impression most of the time people saying this are just advocating small acts of self-care (go for a walk, sit and think for a while, grab a cold one) for a mood boost. I don't think they usually mean "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself". [Citations needed] but this is my impression. You could very well be spending the time you are having a massage or sitting with a beer thinking about whether or not you have been idiotic lately, it's not incompatible.

(2) We all here have been told a lot in the past by our SOs that we are going about things in the wrong way, over- or under-reacting, failing to help when needed, being actively unhelpful, just plain wrong, etc. etc. I'm sure you are right that some people at some times would benefit from getting the suggestion from this board to think about the inappropriateness or negative consequences of their actions, in a more gentle and respectful and informed way than their SOs would do it.     are what seems to produce the most benefits most of the time though. (Or analysis and big semi-theoretical discussions and funny stories for those that are more into that sort of thing

BetterLanes x

I hear you Betterlanes and yes I agree that's often the intention... .however it strikes me that those people who most need to do less 'self care' because they're actually pretty good at it (my W) because they have Narcissistic tenancies anyway, take "be kind to yourself" as a cue to think less about how you are making a complete mess of things and more "justify your own behaviors and actions to yourself". Those people who need that kind of advice are generally reluctant to take it because they're too busy getting their house in order.

Regarding the "be kind to yourself" comments.  I make a lot of those.

BetterLanes has my idea right.  Take whatever is "normal" amount of self care... and do more.  Double it.  Splurge on that nice meal or a massage... .or pedicure.  For me, light exercise and walking does wonders.

There is something about when a person close to you says horrible things about you and what you deserve that tends to get us in a funk, almost like we believe it.

We can "fight back" with extra kindness towards ourselves.

FF

So true ff!

Self care is redeeming

Hi Enabler,


True, I can see how a narcissist doesn't need to hear things that sound like "love yourself"!

It might be worth bearing in mind that this is the Conflicted board. Some of the people posting on here at some points are one more partner-BPD-freakout away from blowing up the whole  :cursing: show themselves, and they know perfectly well what they would need to do to achieve that. Not everyone is equally motivated at all times to be behaving well, using the tools, and trying to hold the relationship together. I think this could well be the source of some of the "out of order" or "less than a best effort" behaviors from nons that you might see being posted about, whether it's conscious, half-acknowledged, or just coming from some deep dark angry place.

You were able to straighten yourself out because you'd chosen and committed to your path, and your posts show how the strength of that commitment gives you strength to make the right behavior choices every day. That's inspiring to see, and thank you for displaying it. I think for many people on here making that choice and commitment is something they are currently aspiring to but haven't achieved yet. Without that it's much harder to choose appropriate behaviors consistently. Plus, if the choice for someone ends up being to leave the relationship, suddenly all the relationship-detaching behaviors start to look like the more appropriate ones (within reason of course!) and the relationship-building behaviors look like they just made the choice or action of breaking up more difficult. The effects of retrospect and perspective on our judgements of events are a source of great wonder and interest to me and surely are very relevant on this board.  

BetterLanes x

Thanks BetterLanes,

I'm glad I am an inspiration to someone. I think if I am brutally honest with you and the forum... .and myself, I don't mind conflict. It's not that I seek it out, I just don't run away from it and have a natural tenancy to turn and face adversity and 'the right way' than take the path of least resistance. I am without any doubt at all that this has in part led me to my current position of being accused of being 'abusive'. I called her out on disrespect, deceit, manipulation and areas where i felt she was taking advantage. I became intolerant.

An extract from an email I sent back in 2007 when she left the second time, regarding the first few years of our marriage 2001-03:

"It dawned on me that someone who couldn't make their own decisions, who got stressed cooking and couldn't handel the pressure of a day in the office, someone who was never happy unless drunk and who couldn't hold an arguement without walking away and crying was not telling me how and what I should be doing, someone who always said I can't do it then had an opinion how I should have done it after the event... .You were going to live by my rules as yours were clearly rubbish and if this meant ramming it down your throat so be it... .and so started the agressive backlash about anything and everything I disagreed with, any objection you had with me... .why tollerate it, why pander to it, why agree with it, it didn't get me anywhere before. Shouting, screaming, lashing out... .that made you get the message and in my mind it made you think twice about kicking up a fuss, emotionally blackmailing me or trying to make me change again. See the rubbish thing about that was I was now part of the problem, in fact I was the problem. Rather than it just you being irrational demanding  and a bit physcho it was me who was the nutter, me losing control and most of all... .me who was now and @rsehole."

If anything, I have learnt how to turn away and allow myself to observe things but not 'be in' things. It's not so much standing down or running away, but being present but not fueling the fire. I can't say it doesn't induce an EPIC amount of anxiety when enduring her silent treatment, passive aggressive behaviour or even overt aggression, but I take the fact I didn't react away from each event as a positive and sign of personal growth.

I know I need to work on how I do that without getting the feeling that I'm a better person than her for not reacting and be neutral about it. Some passages that have guided me recently:

Philippians 2:3 - Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Proverbs 25:15 - With patience a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue will break a bone.

Romans 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Enabler