BPDFamily.com

Not sure how to even put this in context... .


Is there something here to be responded to?

FF

I think that was a long winded way to ask you to get your own phone cord and fix the door handle. 

Maybe validate that yes it must be embarrassing when she's trying to change and the door gets opened because the lock is broken on the door.

Is this something you can fix for her?

Panda39

As a T might say, 'How did that make you feel?'

I would validate the valid and state plan of action for the noise.

My sense (which is clearly rubbish) is that there is a bunch of noise in that, maybe current practical irritations such as the cords (ebay, super long ones for the price of buttons) and the lock. However, I believe the true purpose of the message was something she's been ruminating on... .she feels guilty for her bad language, feels judged (by herself but you as well) and is trying to mentally square it up in her head by deflecting to you. I'd also imagine that there is some paranoia (seeded by the recording of the conversation) (you know she loves a bit of paranoia) which is feeding through to the other things and general safety fears... .

"He records our conversations... .why is he recording our conversations... .what is he doing... .is he going to kill me... .I must stay safe... .has he put a phone tapping virus in the special charger he had no reason to give me... .am I being watched now... .can I trust FF, no... .he's dangerous... .he's trying to destroy me... ."

You know how this death spiral works better than me.

Enabler

Underneath what may appear as noise are two requests- get a longer phone cord for yourself and fix the door handle. Also, be considerate of her if she is changing. I actually think this involves boundaries on her part- she wants her own phone cord as she needs the phone as an alarm. She wants her privacy around her kids- for herself and for them as they are getting older. A two year old can walk in on mommy getting dressed - but not a teen age boy.

Rather than react to the noise- a good response to me would be to go get a cord and fix the door.

I agree with Notwendy here. For what it's worth, and I need to go back and read more of your posts, to me your wife is coming across as being really uncomfortable asking you to get another cord and fix the door handle.

It's been my experience, primarily when I was teaching, that when some students were uncomfortable asking me for something--not to do group work, extra time for an assignment, and the like--they would bluster that way and try to dump the issue back on me, as if it were my fault.

The thing with students as opposed to students, it was much easier for me not to have any kind of emotional reaction to their blustering. "Sure, sure," I'd tell them. "No problem." And they'd continue to bluster until they knew I meant it.

With a spouse or a kid? Harder not to have an emotional response, but I think Notwendy is right, a lot of noise here; however, the message buried beneath the noise seems relatively small.
 
TMD

Interesting take on all of this.

Here is what actually happened.  We had several cords in the room.  My wife keeps taking and leaving them who knows where.  So there was one cord and I had my phone plugged in.  I was sitting on side of bed working on my BP cuff getting ready to take a ready... .with my phone plugged int (that had been beeping red).

I always sit in same position so I get consistent readings.  And... from our plug in, you had to have one of the long cords.

So... she asks me to get her a cord... I skip any thought of "problem solving" about perhaps we should just (read she should) leave cords where they are plugged in and only take cords from the drawer... .the extras.  Nah... .no good to bring that up.

So... I bring her new cord and instead of plugging that cord in and leaving my alone... she takes my phone... .unplugs it... does not plug it into the new cord.  She plugs her phone into the long cord and starts using her phone (minor detail... but she is 1 foot from the outlet... .I'm across the bed)

So... .I ask to have the long cord back because I was using it.  She says something random... .

FF "I would appreciate having the cord back I was using... .I still need the long one."

FFw  Silence

FF  "I get it... .so now we are going to do the "I'm not going to communicate with you thing now that you have what you want."  Great relationship skills dear.  (yeah... I was embracing my inner a$$hole).

FFw:  Then... in a very "moralizing" tone she starts talking about "you know... when I have problem children at school I make sure and praise them extra... it really works."

FF:  I'm sure it does.  I don't understand how you decide to use effective tools like that at work, yet at home you use vulgarity with me.  It would be nice to be praised in an effort to correct me."

She then started a stream of dysregulated nonsense.  I walked to the bathroom, drew a hot bath and did my evening soak. 

Next morning she seemed "pensive"... perhaps especially so.  Then this email showed up.

FF

Thankfully cords are not expensive. This is what I would do. Buy a new long cord and with a piece of duck tape- write her name on it. Plug it in by her bedside. "honey, I bought you a new cord ". Then also buy one for you- put your name in it, leave it by your side of the bed.

His and her cords.

Fix the door handle.

Don't react to drama 

So... the cussing thing.

A day or two prior she expressed interest in going grocery shopping... she and kids made some big plan.  It appeared as though she was being "overt" about making plans without me.   I didn't bite.

She then approached me for money for groceries... .I think she asked for $100... I put that and a few bucks more in the account she has access to.

Off she and kiddos went to shop.

I had been having a particularly bad "back day"... .so I decided to use some relative calm for a hot jetted tub bath and some stretching.  

Apparently while I was in the bath she emailed me asking me to put $50 more in the account so she could fill up the van.  (and... I would have gladly put the money in... .she said please... .very nice email)

Anyway... .I'm getting out of the bath and I hear her coming in the house with a head of steam about something.  She storms into our room "accusing" me of not putting the money in the account as she "told me to" in the email.

I stayed relaxed... .(still trying to figure things out) and said something along the lines of "Oh babe... did I respond to an email and then forget to do something for you?"

Then... .in a voice that was heard throughout the house... .a loud "effe you" was said.  (I believe I had mentioned this earlier... without details... .I think Red had some comments about that)

Anyway... .she kinda stomped around the bedroom and I figured the bath was still warm... so I got back in for a while longer.

Then... perhaps 45 minutes later.  I'm relaxing in bed (back is doing better) and the door to my bedroom comes flying open.

FF you can't make this up movie moment coming... .everyone get your popcorn... it's a party.  

My wife "hops" into the room.  Hop:  Defined as opening door and jumping several feet into the room.  She lands kinda looking at me and I think said 7-8 words in machine gun fashion.  Honestly... .I didn't get all of them... but I think the point was "sorry" and "dinner ready".  

Seriously... .I couldn't understand them... but from breaks in noise... .I kinda got the total number of words.

Nope... movie isn't over.  She "hops" out of the room... and slams the door shut.

Umm... .you can't make this stuff up.  

Nope... not over.

10 min later a perfectly composed FFw brings me a plate of food (delicious by the way).  I said "Oh babe... .thanks so much for the food."

She doesn't respond... .walks from room and shuts door.

And... the curtain shuts on FF movie night.

FF

I don't think one can always make sense out of these things.

I think there is a disconnect when in victim mode. Something unintentional on your part can be interpreted as some kind of affront.

You can't change that. You were in the tub. She took it as ignoring her request.

If cussing were a mortal sin, Hell would be overcrowded. Sometimes I think it helps to just let some of this stuff go.

I suspect what she is "really" upset about is she has a pretty good idea of the "cost" of "opening my wallet" again.

It will take a relaxed... in person apology  Not an email.  And... .if the "hopping" thing was in fact an apology... .I can't imagine "letting that count" being in any way good for the relationship.

My "value" or "stance".  If you want to cuss me to my face... .you can apologize in same manner.  While I'm generally not a fan of email or text apologies... .if you "do something wrong via email" and then apologize via email... .I will accept that to be consistent with my "value".

Personally... if I make a booboo via email. I try to talk directly to a person to express remorse or apology.
 
Anyway... .my question for you guys... . At some point she will "want" something from me and I want to be appropriately flexible to help move the relationship forward and recognize the reality that she likely won't do anything close to a real apology.

So... how do I handle that?

Right now my plan is that if she asks for money via email or text that my response will be along the lines of "I'll certainly consider it.  Let me know when it's a good time for you to talk in person about this."


Something like that.

FF

When it comes to apologies, I think you may be asking too much of her. I think an apology is very hard for a pwBPD- I think it triggers a big shame reaction for them. Instead of " I made a mistake" they feel " I am a mistake, I'm worthless, incompetent, etc.

Sometimes an apology comes in the form of " see I am good now" Doing something nice as a way to offset the offense. Once they do that, bringing up the offense can trigger a dysregulation.

I agree that doesn't repair a relationship for you in your way, but it may be the best they can do. Your wife is the wife you have, and trying to make her do this differently may cause further drama. If the hopping into the bedroom is her apology, that is the apology. She also apologized by e mail. Pushing this further is rubbing her nose in it. (IMHO)

There seems to be some kitchen sinking here. Solve the part you can solve- get the cords, fix the door.

I can't imagine "letting it go" and sending her money next time she asks politely.  She does like to use the standard "wait it out" BPD tactic... .combined with the etch a sketch... ."it never happened."

However... she did mention it in the email... .she is aware.

I guess I could see me saying in a private conversation... . "Babe... I don't understand what happened with the cussing the other day.  I'd like to talk about it.  If you don't want to discuss it, I'm willing to let it go for the good of our relationship."

Oh... .I don't think it matters or should be corrected... .but she is confusing her stories.  She didn't "cuss" me on her bad day.  On her bad day she appeared to be cussing S15 saying "not going to put up with any BS" (she said the BS nice and loud.

I walked in the kitchen... saw S15 kinda wide eyed... .and figured the best way to help calm things was

"Hey babe... .I'd like to chat about parenting in private."

she sighed... said she was busy but would come in after a few minutes.  Which she did.  She was actually apologetic in person that time, had bad day at school and (amazingly) said she would need space to calm that evening.  I gave her the space... she kinda kept to herself.

FF

Clarity:  We have plenty of cords... .like 10 extra in the drawer.  All of them in the drawer have been tested by me ahead of time.   They are good.  I regularly get extra cords as well... .and then cords that show up are tested before going in drawer.

There is a bag labeled "bad cords" where the (you guessed it) bad cords go... to get swapped for warranty.

Door fixing is in work.  Waiting on warranty replacement to get here.


And... I get it... .I likely won't get something close to a "perfect" apology (although those do sometimes happen... I'm not asking for impossible).   I also want to be considerate of my values around "respect and appreciation of my wallet"

Any advice on how to balance that?

FF

My personal code is I never expect apologies.  If they come, great.  My personal way of dealing with such issues, is to state my displeasure at their behavior and then let it go.  So in your situation, I would just tell her that I thought it was wrong to use the F word (add any more detail that you feel is appropriate).

To be honest, pwBPD usually is the one demanding apologies for behavior that doesn't warrant an apology.  It can easily become a contest of wills, which isn't helpful in a marriage.

There are many "issues" or things that I let stuff go.  Money is kinda it's own category with me, because of past "financial infidelity"... that was apologized for... .the unapologized for (I didn't even know that was a thing... to unapologize)

Anyway... .my way of looking at is is if YOU break the relationship... it's broken... .there is a way to repair it.  I'm not going to hound you... nag you... whatever to repair it, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't broken.

So... I don't "demand" an apology... I'll live my life with wallet closed and be just fine... I would pester her about it.

Said another way... I'll respect whatever choice she makes.


FF

I guess I am not understanding.  How is this about money?  Because she got upset at you about not giving her money for the gas?  Isn't that issue already a non-issue (van has gas)?  If I am hearing you correctly, all future money is on hold until she apologizes?  I thought last time we discussed this you said you would not give her money when she asked in a non-polite way.  I took that to mean if she asked in a bad way you wouldn't give her money, but if she later came in a reasonable way, you would.  Now it is sounding like even then you wouldn't give it unless it would also be accompanied by an apology.  IMO, that is taking things too far.

My analysis is that your marriage is broken, possibly irrevocably, and getting worse. Would you like help with an exit strategy?

sounds like she may be a little frustrated over the lack of control of the situation?

You may want to remind her the fix for the bedroom door lock is in the works, and also that you have plenty of extra cords, but maybe suggest - like someone else mentioned above - that she label one she likes for her exclusive use next to the bed.

Without spending an extra $$$ you've reassured her that her demands will be met and (hopefully) defused a bad situation.

And... perhaps it is.  She has never been "this mean" or "demanding" for money.  She has been nasty before... .but never cussed at me like this.

I'd have to search my memory banks on whether or not she apologized for those previous incidents.  I tend to think there was some gesture and sometimes an apology.   Some gesture beyond something in an email.

You guys know me... .I can get caught up in details.  This was really after the fact.  I gave her more money that she asked for the first time, and then wasn't aware of the second request. 

So... perhaps this is new territory or a new "precedent"

I'm certainly not contemplating "pestering" her for an apology... .but what do I do when she nicely asks for money for something I would normally say yes to... .do I really act like nothing ever happened?

Or perhaps I say yes... .and ask her to have a conversation later.

Very likely I'm stuck in overthinking mode.

FF

No on the exit strategy... I've got plans ready should that ever come to happen.

Marriage is certainly broken.  I suspect that I am somewhere near the "upper limit" of improvement for what one person can do, without the other doing some active work on their part.

Not suggesting I've arrived and I'll quit... .just that I don't see tons more energy being put in resulting in much more improvement.

FF

Yes, I think it is better to not tie money to an apology.  Keep the 2 issues separate.

Not arguing... .but asking to expand on the values here.

The boundary is about my value around money.

If you want "access", you will be polite.  For clarity, I'm this way in the business world as well.  I have a tense relationship with an adjoining landowner (investment property) and I do owe him money.  

He got yippy and cussed some, although not "at" me and I stopped the conversation... .let him know I don't discuss business that way but would be ready to proceed without cussing.  After a couple days... .he was nicer... .we proceeded and appear to have come to a deal.  (hopefully finalized soon)
.
And yes... I'm a Sailor and I've heard a few things here and there.  I've chosen a pathway away from that and I'm willing to pay the cost in broken relationships, missed business deals... tense relationships... whatever... .

Disrespect... .wallet closed

Respect... I'll consider opening it.

Life is simple for FF

FF

The problem is it is becoming more about control.  She needs money.  Now in order to get it, she has to humble herself before you.  If you stick to your guns, you will probably get the apology.  It won't be sincere, though, and she will resent you for it.  I get your insistence that she ask nicely, but now tying it to past behavior is a serious escalation in your relationship, and it isn't going to take it where you want.  She will respect you less if you tie apology to money.

From a Christian perspective, Jesus didn't wait for the Roman soldiers to apologize before he forgave them.

From a Christian perspective... .there is a difference in forgiveness and reconciliation.  I'm not out to persecute my wife or to punish.  I'm also not her to "save" her from her actions/decisions.

She "wants" my money and she "wants" the past back, without doing the work required to heal her decisions (financial infidelity).

She has a full time job and her own money.  Which I don't ask for.  She apparently used her own money and regularly does so... to buy things.  Such as when I was in the bath... apparently she used some of her own that day.

She has choices... .I'll respect whichever ones she makes, even if I don't find them "respectable".

I do need to think about what I'm going to do if she just want to "wash away" the past on this particular instance. 

I don't think she respects me... so... .what do I have to lose?

She resents me... so... .again... .what do I have to lose?

She may "act" sincere... or not... but I'll never know if she "really' means it.

Funny thing... .once you get to a point where you have nothing to loose, it seems to be easier to do the "right" thing.

I am still debating what the "right" thing is in this particular case... .

FF

Well IMO, it will be a cold day in Hell when an angry and bitter pwBPD offers a genuine apology. It's a conundrum. Do we let them off the hook easier than we would an emotionally healthy person? Or do we try and hold them accountable for past misdeeds that they've long since swept under the carpet? The heavy burden of shame that pwBPD carry seems to preclude much self introspection and the ability to step inside someone else's experience and see things differently. How much behavioral change and remorse is enough to account for past indiscretions?

There is a "personal element" to what I'm going to say... also "analysis" of a pwBPD.

My wife does actually apologize sometimes and seems to mean it.  Her feelings might change later... .

Her Mom... .I doubt she has EVER apologized.

Her sister would not apologize, but would do acts of service of some sort... .

So... chew out her husband (standard BPD) but a few days later make a special meal.  But he told me he NEVER heard "I'm sorry" or "forgive me" or "I apologize" or anything like that.  I believe him... .100%.

My wife is BPD light... .compared to them.

I mention this because I would feel different... if there was no evidence she could or had done this  She just doesn't do it as often as she should (IMO)

Not sure if that changes anything.

FF

I agree with Fian. This money issue is a division in your marriage and neither one of you seems willing to budge on that. It seems like there’s a lot of resentment between the two of you. Which direction do you want the marriage to go?

In the direction where money "deals" get kept.  In fact, it would be great if we could talk, agree on what is going to happen... and have that happen.

Umm... you guys asked what I want.  A spouse that keeps their word.

FF

I've actually budged a lot.  and I have proposed many... many compromises and tried many that were abrogated by her.

She has remained steadfast... .the only thing she will be "happy" with is unlimited access just like she had before... .and she "promises" that she won't do it again.

Clarity... .that "deal" has been tried three times... perhaps more... .with her breaking it. 

So... .?

I'm willing to try many different things... .but I'm not willing to try again a failed plan... .and expect it to turn out differently.

FF

I am not arguing with your rule of no money if not respectful (although I don't agree with it).  What I am arguing about is tying an apology to it as well.  It appears you are trying to force an apology, using the money as a carrot (or stick depending on how you look at it).  My advice is to keep the items separate.  Seek reconciliation outside of getting money.

One other observation.  We had a separate thread where we discussed prayer approach versus your financial boundary approach.  You said that your wife is resentful and does not respect you.  I would argue that is the logical conclusion of your approach.  I understand your desire to keep some financial stability in your home, but you can do that without the rule of you only get money if you ask nicely.  She will rightly see you as using money as a lever to reward/punish her behavior.

Of course, you may feel vulnerable losing control and wonder what motivation your wife will have to speak to you respectfully, if she gets the money anyway.  My suggestion is to pray and fast.  To be honest, this is the perfect opportunity to put it into practice and see what happens, when you give up all the incentives for her to speak to you respectfully.  What have you got to lose?

So... .flip it around.

Would any of us recommend... "blah blah blah you did the lady down the street... you are not a Christian and I need $50... or else I will tell the children"

FF opens wallet and hands $50?

And... would you advise other members for the same thing... .on other topics other "levers".   

I'm not seeing the value to my relationship of honoring disrespect... anyone's relationship for that matter.

Umm... .there is a lot of money to loose.  Track record says it will be gone.

FF

Sure, just make it clear the $50 is not due to a threat.  But let's get back to the last part, "Umm... .there is a lot of money to loose.  Track record says it will be gone."

If she asks nicely, are you going to give all of the money to her?  No, you will still hold her to a budget.  It doesn't matter if she asks nicely or not, there is a limit on how much you will give.  On the other hand, if you drop the rule, ask nicely or no money, I am not saying that you give her money every single time she asks.  Instead, you would evaluate the request based on its reasonableness and what the family can afford.  You would just be dropping the requirement that she must ask nicely.

It would depend on what the money is for. And also, the two issues could be separated as Fian said- tying the money to how she speaks to you may be combining two issues that would be better handled separately.

You have 8 kids (I know some are away at school probably eating there) but that means a lot of driving and a lot of kids to feed. "I need $50 for gas and groceries" seems like a reasonable request. Something else may be up for discussion.

When you tie the money to her behavior, you are controlling her, and also she learns that being manipulative " I will ask nicely so I can get the money" leads her to behave insincerely. This may get you the behavior you want but with a boatload of resentment on her part and fake affection or respect.

You may get the behavior you seek but with an emotional price to your relationship. I guess this is what you are choosing between.

"You are seeing another woman, you are not a Christian" that's pink elephant junk. It pushes your buttons.  These kinds of statements are hurtful- they push your own buttons. This comes from a hurting person in victim mode and this person is hurting outwards at you and choosing to say hurtful statements- they hit at a sensitive place. Being a Christian is a major part of your identity.

When I had an argument with my H, he would say hurtful things about my career. That was a sore spot for me as I was working part time and not advancing like full time workers did, but I was also managing the home and kids mostly on my own. So then he would also say critical things about that. These were not as sensitive as religion, but still hurt. In the moment, he said them as he was hurting. In the case with my mother, if she was really angry about me she would say really hurtful things about my father, or she'd say she had something of his that I wanted and won't let me have it. Pretty cruel to say this to a daughter right after he died. But she meant for that to hurt.

What is my boundary? It isn't about necessities like money, or sex, or taking care of the home/kids. I still send my mother gifts for her birthday and holidays. They aren't contingent on if she says something mean to me or not. My boundary is on the behavior. If my mother brings up my father- the conversation ends. I won't listen to that. If my H were to say something mean about my job or the home - it's a pink elephant. The conversation stops. I won't listen to it.

Once you take the power out of your wife's words , you may find she uses them less. You know who you are- you don't cheat, you know you are a Christian. I know I have done my best at work and home, and I loved my father. What people say may hurt in the moment but it doesn't change who I am.

I don't think you need to do unlimited money. I have seen this kind of thing throw my parents into debt. But tying this need to your wife's speaking to you nicely or apologizing is also possibly damaging. Perhaps there needs to be some revision of the budget. Rather than have her need to ask you for money beyond her earnings, is there a way to add a certain amount to that so she isn't having to ask you for things like gas money and groceries?

And how would this benefit our relationship? 

Seriously... .take the example of an ATM.  It works a certain way.  If you cuss it... .money doesn't come out.  If your follow the "directions".  You get access to your account.

By "playing along" with the notion that using disrespect... cussing... threats equals access to "your account", isn't that validating the invalid or "enabling" bad behavior.

The "control" is a matter of perspective.  Am I controlling her... .sure... but that's not my focus.  My focus is on controlling access to my values... my money that are tied to those values.  And... I don't just do this for my wife... that's how my money works.  I'll respect peoples decisions to do it either way.

I'm trying to get the point you guys are making... I really am.  Let's keep going.

Do you guys advocate this for just money or for other parts of relationships.   Do we really want to advocate "untethering"  respectful words to things "inside our boundaries".    Perhaps there is a benefit to it that I'm not seeing yet.

FF

This concerns money for basic needs of your family- gas, groceries, clothing, school supplies.

Does the sun still rise in the morning if we cuss, act disrespectful? Yes. Does money fall from trees? No. But our basics- sun, water, food growing on its own, are provided. You are the head of the household spiritually and if you are able to afford the basic needs of your family, why should they have to behave in the way you feel they need to for those? For other things, they can ask, discuss, work for if need be.

Why does your wife have to continuously ask you for necessities if you are able to afford them? Yes, she has her own money but does a teacher earn enough to provide these things for 8 kids? I don't think so. I'm not discussing unlimited funds or money for something frivolous but I would find it humiliating to have to behave in a contrite way to get grocery money for food we need.  I work as well, but I earn less and my salary doesn't cover everything we do as a family. Also, if I buy groceries, it isn't just for me. I don't bring them home, cook them and eat them all myself. The family eats and so does my H.

I would find it humiliating to have to ask if I needed underwear, or shampoo or tampons for a teen age girl. I can manage these out of the household budget. However, if I were to consider a large purchase, this would need to be discussed. This ventures into the area of financial infidelity. A large sum of money should be discussed, but $50 for gas when I am driving a car load of kids around being contingent on "asking nicely and behaving" would venture into being controlling IMHO.

I am not talking about excessive spending but I do think some agreements in a marriage should not be contingent on someone being angry and saying something insulting. I think the insults are something to deal with in isolation.  I don't think spouses should be disrespectful of each other, but that is a marital problem. In the meantime ,your family still needs to eat, and the car needs gasoline for the family to function.

Hi ff,

i feel the same way, was resentful that his attitude of disdain towards me was often expressed, all the support i gave, only now am i hearing the good things i did for him... .  its been one of the hardest things.

guess it depends on my attitude.  When his attitude stank towards me, my attitude stank too.
Its like it was contageous.  When i can get away from personalities (his bad attitude) and move toward principles (i support my loved ones), i am less likely to get in to manipulation.  I want to be me, a person who can somehow take the high road.

Its not easy and it has to be intentional on my part.

Best,
j

Notwendy

Because that's how life works... at least for me anyway.

Behavior matters.  If you cuss the cook enough... .food will stop showing up.

Have you gone back to cooking dinner for your hubby... regardless of what he says (hopefully remembering your experience correctly)

There are multiple lessons here that matter to me, I'll respect my wife's decision either way if they matter to her.

Had my wife had some forethought and made more plans... I'm quite positive I would have happily funded the card with gas money.  She made a choice to not think ahead... .then she made a choice to ask me via email... .and then she made a choice of how to respond to me not being available at that instant she needed something.

Rather than repeating an analogy... .you can take the one I used here an apply it to this, because my thinking is the same.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329126.new#new

I used to try and be super flexible ... .super forgiving... .whatever she needed I would accommodate.  Now... .I serve a very small "slice" of "customers".  My wife has a choice of where she wants to shop... .I'm going to be the store that works for me and my values.

Should she leave the cart in the parking lot... .i'm not going to go against my values to get her quarter back... .she knows how to get it and she has every right to chose to leave it behind.  I'll respect her decision either way.

Will lots of people think I'm a (insert whatever) for doing that... .I'm sure they will.  That's ok.

Now, that being said... sometimes nuance matters.  She did the cussing after the fact, not before and it very well may be that I'm setting precedent here.  When that comes up, I try to be super careful with that, because last thing I want to do is "keep changing the rules"... ."the instructions" as they may be.

FF

I see a couple of areas.  First, based on your wife's cussing, it appears that your relationship has reached a toxic level.  I believe your money approach is part of the reason why your wife is so resentful and has so little respect.  By stopping it, you can at least stop adding fuel to the fire there, plus it gives you the opportunity to repair it over time.

The other thing is it will force you in directions you have avoided going.  My advice was to take the prayer approach, but it appears you don't want to take that route.  The other thing it is going to force you to do is talk to your wife.  Your current approach as I see it is to control her behavior with boundaries, safe behind castle walls.  If she complains, you offer to sit down and talk with her, but you put the ball in her court, and she rarely chooses that route.  Now, without your financial lever, it makes you vulnerable.  You can't force her to show you respect.  Your only option when she is disrespectful, is to initiate the conversation yourself.  Tell her that it hurt when she spoke to you in such a way.

From my perspective, the talking accomplishes several things.  First of all, don't expect to win the argument.  From my experience, even with nons, it is extremely rare for them to say at the end of the conversation, "You are right, I was wrong."   But often later, you will see their behavior changing or even using your arguments as if they believed them.  Second, women feel a connection from talking.  It is actually something that my wife and I are doing intentionally to make our marriage better - blocking time to just talk about anything.  By taking time to talk about issues, I think it will deepen your wife's connection to you, improving your marriage.  Third, your wife won't like being the perpetrator in the discussion.  She will do what she can to avoid that being in that role, changing her behavior in the future.  

I don't think this is a magic bullet that will fix all marital problems, but it is another approach for you to solve things when you give up the financial lever.  I still think that prayer is the most effective way to solve major marital problems.

I think I see some of the disconnect.  By and large... been there done that... failed.  I won't try and approach that doesn't work for me... especially if I've tried it multiple times.



Less cussing now that a couple years ago... .more cussing that over the summer.  To put this in context.  This is the first "effe you" to my face in... .perhaps a year.  Part of the "disconnect" between letting things go and moving on and holding on to old things is I don't have an exact idea of things like this back in time.

For instance... .one divorce threat in past year was at beginning of July.  I can't remember the one before then.


I don't see how I stop this without "validating the invalid"... .that there are not consequences for bad behavior.

It's obvious you are not suggesting "no limits" (at least I don't think you are).  So... .why should anyone put up with (perhaps enable) bad behavior.  Doesn't that get into "intermittent reinforcement.

Sometimes I can cuss my hubby and it turns out ok... sometimes I can't.

Versus... ."my hubby doesn't put up with people cussing him"



Yet I can't force my wife to talk to me.  Door is open... .



Well... .I can see how some could see this as about her... .and in a way it is.  I think it's more about me.  I've chosen to live behind the castle wall.  That controls lots of people's behavior.  That being said, we teach and I believe that boundaries are NOT about the other person... they are about you.

I don't to (that... fill in blank)... .it doesn't work for me.  Other people may feel controlled, but it's really not about them.

I would suggest you might have more of a point if I was "selective" and treated my wife one way... .and everyone else another way.  The door is the same... .it takes the same "key" to talk through it, regardless if you are my wife... .or crazy neighbor in another state or my child.

I don't post about it much here... .but I'm assuming you can imagine the hoops my kids jump through to "get to" Dad's money.

Am I controlling them... I suppose.  But making my kid do a spreadsheet and showing me with numbers how something is going to work... .I dunno, seems like the right way for me to teach my values and "business sense".  They very well may reject it once they are out on their own. 

FF

You said you've done just about all you can do to improve the marriage. I'm curious -- other than enforcing strict boundaries (which I'd hesitate to call an improvement strategy), what have you done?

I get the connection to the dinner cooking, but one difference is that, he would be OK if I did or didn't cook. He has access to the food and the kitchen. However, I also don't cook on the basis of his behavior. I cook for several reasons- a main one is that, we all have to eat and cooking family style includes the family. I don't cook for myself and the kids and keep him from the dinner table. I did cook out of fear of him getting angry- and I don't think that was a good mindset to be doing that from.

I think we all have our deal breakers and they can be different ones. There are several ways to manage income in a family and you have the right to do this how you wish. There are also consequences to how this is arranged. It is certainly an emotional topic in a marriage.

I think the reason some of us are proposing something different is that this could be the hill your marriage dissolves on. You can keep your position, but it could drive your marriage further down the road of destruction. Even if you choose not to divorce- the two of you are still living in a home together, raising kids and it could add to the emotional toxicity between you.

She's probably not going to change- if she has BPD it leads to disordered, impulsive behaviors. Using money to control her behaviors may work- and it can also work with a teen with behavior problems- the chip reward method is effective with kids. It's also effective with adults- if they don't go to work, no paycheck, or if they act inappropriately at work- they get fired. But does this same method work in a marriage? A spouse is not an employee or a child.

*mod*

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