BPDFamily.com

Continuation from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329095.0

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Worthy of a separate post... .

 I pray regularly for wisdom and healing and various other things.

I don't see any Biblical justification for "only prayer".  Yes... there are certain times that God commanded people to do some odd things, but those were specific instances to highlight his power and that it was Him... not the people that accomplished things.

IMO.

FF

True... .but what do I (and we) do when they choose to behave like one?

FF

Nothing.

Its a spiritual issue.   She is God's child.

Take what you like (the good) and leave the rest (bad)

You are not her Higher Power.

You are only responsible for your will and your life.
Getting in to someone else's business, for me, is chaos making.

Judgement is the Lord's.
His judgement is exceedingly fine.

She may act like one at times, but she isn't a child. She holds a job and is responsible for taking care of the children. And you are having sex with her. If she was a child, she would not be doing any of these things.

Again, I am not advocating complete access to all of the money, legally though as your spouse, she may share ownership of it with you. What I ( and I think others are advocating for ) is a situation where she is not beholden to you for the basic things a family needs- gas, groceries. If she is driving a van with the children in it, and you can afford it, don't hold gas money contingent on how she speaks to you. The car has to run to get your family where they need to go.

I am not discussing giving her a pot of money to fill her closet with designer clothes. I don't think she's asked for that kind of thing. Her weak spot seems to be giving money to her family. You don't have to give her money for that. But you could discuss her reasons for wanting to do that with her. Maybe she sees this differently than you do. That's OK, but perhaps there is some way to come up with some agreement that fits  both your values.

So... .we 100% agree.

How do I give her access to money for her basic needs and then what happens... what specifically do I do, when she abrogates whatever agreement there is about money... and hands it over to her family.  Where the money is (has been) used to enable bad behavior on a scale that makes my wife's stuff look like she is a kindergartner trying to "graduate" from the school of BPD.

My wife is "fine" with managing money while "not emotionally affected".  She regularly leaves money in the account.  It's one of the "tells" I use to gauge her emotional state.

We have had 100% clear agreements that "never again" will she give money to her family unless we are both onboard ahead of time.  This has been done in and out of counseling... .with and without "accountability partners".

In the end... I am the one facing accountability and responsibility of dealing with an empty account.  Looking back... I realize I did this way too many times.

She needs $150, I'll usually put in more.  There is a note in the transfer about purpose for record keeping and I'll usually send over more, perhaps I round it to $200.

When she says she needs $150... .spends $135 and seems pleasant, I "know" that I'm dealing with my truly reasonable wife.  Lots of "tells" match.

When she spends everything she can get her hands on... .it's a bit of a tell that the flames may be rising.

My wife is the queen of "poof".  It's been proven time and time again.  She really has the best of intentions... .but when emotions get going... .she caves... account emptied.

FF

I think that is the crux of the issue for you.  By giving up the lever, you view it as you being helpless to stop the bad behavior.  My response to this is:
1.  Stop trying to control her behavior.
2.  There are still consequences.  You will talk with her about bad behavior, which she won't like.
3.  This is exactly where prayer is needed.  Let God be the one to work on her.

This is a passive approach to communication.  You need to be the one to walk through the door.  While you can't force her to talk to you, if you are insistent enough, eventually you will be heard.


If you aren't seeing God move in your marriage, then I would recommend to include fasting.  As for viewing prayer as you doing nothing, I addressed that in the other thread.  Prayer is active, not passive.

How do I do this while still controlling my wallet?  How specifically.

My wallet... my responsibility (vice hers). 

I also control the behavior of everyone else that "wants in" to my wallet.

I'll get back to the other questions in a bit.

I suppose this goes to motivation.  I see my primary job to be a steward of that entrusted to me.  If a result of my stewardship is that others "feel controlled"... .that is what it is.

FF

You would handle it the same way.  If her request is reasonable, you give her the money.  If it isn't, you don't.  What we are saying is you don't tie the way she asks to whether she gets the money or not.

This is excellent question... .

appropriate background.  


This was me several years ago.  Comments from a prior counselor that I trust and that my current psychologist trusts as well.  She agrees these are areas of weakness for me that I need to focus on and that are under my control.

1.  I still "think through" if it is a good time to discuss an issue, but once I've determined that... I trust others to handle the news... .vice trying to "soft sell it".  

2.  Way too many words.  They all mattered very much to me, but I"m kinda an outlier.  My wife is a "broad brush" kinda person... I'm very much like my grandfather... .there are 10 steps to a project... the order matters and I'm prepared to discuss in detail.  I need to explain it how others need to hear it... .not how I think they need to hear it.  And then trust them to press forward without details... .that I think they need.

3.  Fairly self explanatory.  While in the past I wouldn't say "effe you" back the first time, I would stay engaged and get to the point where I was every bit as bad as my wife or someone else.  Now... .I'm very upfront... .I don't do conflict.  If you don't like it... .(fill in blank)

4  I used to regularly express shock at the trainwreck that was/is my wife' behavior.  (which has gotten way better... no doubt about it)  I used to "do things" because of her behavior.  Now I "do things" because they reflect my values... .or "work for me"  I used to react to others... .now others react to me.  I'll do my thing... they can do theirs.  If it matches up... .all the better.  

5.  (the big one)... .Witholding relationship.  I really wasn't a boundary driven person before.  I was "all in" or "all out".  To be clear, because of boundaries there are times where it is 100% appropriate to "withhold relationship" (as it specifically related to my values)  However... because I'm cussed over money shouldn't affect that I kindly speak to her as she gets in bed... .or offer to cuddle (sexually or nonsexually)... .or compliment her on her appearance... .or listen to her about all the nasty teachers she works with.

according to me... when she cusses me about money... it affects that narrow slice of our relationship.  That's my choice.  She may choose to "use" that to affect other parts... that's her choice.

Much more I could say, and hopefully will later.  

FF

So... .extreme example for clarity.

"effe you FF... .you lazy blah blah... .I need gas money"

She gets gas money.

Is that really what you are proposing?  Making sure I'm not missing this.

FF

Yes, that is what I am proposing.  Address the language separately.

I think she will have to learn the way anyone else does but you need to be out of the way of this. If you are the natural enforcer it breeds the resentment between you.

Why don't we all go out and blow away all our money? Because then, it will be all gone and we won't have money for things we need.

One idea is to designate a certain amount- after needs are met, an amount you can live with if it gets blown away. It's for something she wants, not something she needs like food or gas. This is our vacation fund  or restaurant fund.  "Honey this is our account for the Christmas fund, or the vacation fund or whatever. She blow it? Sorry everyone get a pair of socks for Christmas, no vacation this year. Nobody will perish for that, but she will learn there is a consequence to blowing money.

You will need to let go of the control. It isn't only that she blows the money- its that you also disapprove of what she does with it, but that is your feeling, not hers. You are not just controlling your wallet, you are controlling the money going to her family. Yet, so long as you do this controlling you are in the way of the lesson of natural consequences.

With my mother- she never had limits on money. We compensated by doing without. Once Dad died, we feared she would go through her money too fast. But we had no control over that- it's all in her hands. What she does with some of it makes me cringe. I hate to see how much she misuses money. Then something happened- she said something like "once it is gone in the bank, it doesn't fill up again" then things like "wow this costs a lot"  and " I decided not to do this because it was too expensive".

I don't know how people learn otherwise if they don't figure it out before hand.

And would you propose this for "just money" or should it apply to all areas of a relationship.  Sex, food, date nights... .any of that.

To be clear... .I believe I'm being consistent.

I don't think "blah blah blah you nasty (blank)... .go get in bed it's time to have sex"  I don't think that should result in sex for anyone.

I don't think "blah blah blah... .you lazy (blank)... .give me money for gas" should result in anyone's wallet opening. (including mine)

I don't think "blah blah blah... .now is the time  we will (fill in blank) " should result in  whatever was being sought.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

FF

Don't bundle this. Focus on dealing with the finances.


Adding other things will complicate the thinking process.

I would tend to put sex in a separate category, but even then one errs on the side of having sex for Biblical reasons.

As for the rest, I guess you are asking if you are just a puppet of your wife, and with no ability to resist.  That is actually one of the concerns about Matthew 5.  To summarize, it says if someone strikes you in the left cheek, turn to him the right also.  If someone forces you to travel one mile with them, travel two miles.  If someone sues you for your tunic, give him your cloak as well.

I think the answer is complex, and I know that you prefer simple.  Unfortunately, real life isn't simple.  Anyway, the general rule is you take care of your side of the fence, regardless of whether your wife is handling hers.  You are a good steward of your family's money, ensuring that their needs are met.  You will tell your wife no, when she is making decisions that adversely affect your family's financial health.  When she threatens you for money, you respond, that wasn't necessary, all you had to do was ask.  If she starts to misuse her new found power and getting bossy or whatever, then you consider pushing back, based on what you view is better for the health of the marriage, not because she is aggravating you.

As for protecting yourself, you don't have to listen when she is using her words as a weapon.  Walking away, turning off cellphone are valid boundary actions.  In fact, if she says bad things and asks for money, you could say, "I am sending the money, but since you are saying such things, I am going to turn my phone off for the next few hours.  I would like to talk with you later about the words that you said and how hurtful they were."  You also know how to self-care when she is being aggravating.

As for changing her behavior, there is direct talking about the issue, and prayer.

I think it simplifies things... .and helps avoid inconsistency.

And yes... .combining the issues of a couple of posts, I do like simple.  I actually "need" simpler now (at least I would argue this) because my abilities are so much less than they used to be.

I used to have the time, ability and energy to "be this" to this person and "be that" to another person and yet a third thing to someone else.

I don't have the ability to do that anymore.  Part of "recovery" or "living the best life I can" or "fullest" life that I can live is to figure out what works best for me and the time/abilities I have left.

And then do that. 

There is no doubt that this looks, feels and is very different than the FF of a few years ago and I almost don't even know the FF of 15 years ago.

Perhaps best simplified by a thought that I used to react/act to try to make everyone else happy and achieve a goal.  Now... .if a goal is worthwhile... .I'll be deliberate about doing it in such a way that I believe is moral and fits in my values, but I honestly don't "do things" with an intention of making people happy or sad.

  (I would think that is manipulative)  Ok... .yes... I'll still do flowers and a card and yes I intend that to "make" someone happy for a time.  So... perhaps better said that I don't do things "intentionally" to hurt people or "teach them a lesson".  I do my thing... .and if they "connect the dots" and learn a lesson... great... if not... .I press on.

Perhaps I'm starting to ramble... .not sure.


FF

It's interesting how different people focus on different parts of the Bible.

How do you "turn the other cheek" yet also "protect your heart"?

If "all scripture" is equally valid (as long as you don't take it out of context)... .I don't see Matthew 5 as saying that you ALWAYS must turn the cheek.  Especially since Jesus didn't... .he was physically forceful when it was appropriate.

So... .there is a judgment call to be made in the "turning your cheek".  For me... .if it's a new issue that "comes out of nowhere"... .I'm a cheek turner.  If it's a repetitive an unrepentant pattern... .I'll go into "protect your heart mode".

I struggle to think of when I would "use a whip"... .but I suppose my choice to call CPS and stop spanking in my house would be up that alley.  My wife certainly expresses it that way.

I don't think this is a dichotomous choice.  Turn the cheek or not.  I focus much of my prayer on asking for wisdom to guide my actions and in "picking" the right scriptural viewpoint.

FF

When Joseph was in Egypt... did he immediately hand over all the grain he has stored up to his family?

How did he go about his relationship with them?

Serious question... .

FF

 
Interesting split by the mods.

I like it and the question that has been rephrased in the title.

I hope we can all agree that there will be "control" issues around all sorts of topics in a relationship with a pwBPD. 

Furthermore... I'm the one here asking advice and it seems to crux of the question, and perhaps point of view matters here, is whether or not I'm trying to "control my wife" or if "I'm trying to control my wallet".

I can't argue that my wife is "being controlled" by this or perhaps from my point of view her "access" to the wallet is not as broad or discretionary as it was before.

FF

Get her a gas credit card. No one should have to beg for gas money.

Clarity... .she didn't "have to".

I'm not involved with how she decides when to spend "her" money or if she decides to ask me to to fund that from the income I bring to the family.

I've offered the conversation and she "wants everything back first"... .then she says she is willing to talk.

We've seen the Charlie Brown Lucy thing... .I don't kick that ball anymore.  I just don't.

She has literally said the words "Admit you are wrong first... ." as a precondition to discussion.

I'm open to many... many... .many ways to discuss this and have many... many solutions that I see as acceptable.

Any interpretation of her stance is there is "only one" solution that she will find acceptable. 

Let's not forget... .when this idea came up to "solve" her concerns that I tricked her into spending money to make her look bad... .she physically took a card and threw it at me... .and hit me with it.

And... .according to her... .it was my fault that she did that.

Since then... .I don't bring it up... .the times she brings it up there is rewriting of history.  Rather than argue with her... .I first ask if she wants to hear my view.  Usually it's met with silence, sometimes there is a verbal non answer (such as you should know)... .I don't believe she has outright said no.

I'm positive she has never said yes.  So... .I'll wait until she is ready to listen.

Circling back to the start... .she doesn't "have to beg".

I'm curious why should wouldn't get her own gas card.

FF

"Admit you are wrong first... ." as a precondition to discussion.



And yours is " apologize or treat me nice before you get money".

It seems the two of you are at a standoff. I don't know what direction this will take you.

I also don't know if an online Biblical discussion is going to be helpful. People have different interpretations of the Bible. Some statements are inconsistent. One statement I struggle with is honor your parents. How do you honor someone who is abusing you? I used to think it meant be a doormat, turn the other cheek but now I also think it means "honor the best in them". What my mother would like is for me to enable her, but that isn't in her best interest, and it isn't helping her to be her best person. Also with my H, when I enabled him to treat me poorly, I wasn't doing what was in his best interest. I think marriage asks us to also not enable our spouses to behave in less than their better selves.

With my mother, if she were to mismanage her finances and have nothing for food ( I hope not!), then "honor your parents" would mean I would not let her go hungry if I could help. She doesn't get to spend my kids' college funds on extravagant things, but if I could afford it, I would feel Biblically obligated to help with her basic needs.


How can you support the best in your wife? I get that you should not enable her to speak cruelly at you, but deal with that when it happens. "Honey, I know you are better than that". Separate that from money for gas. I can't quote it but I think there are some basic obligations in marriage.  There are circumstances where that obligation can't be met- perhaps abuse, adultery and other circumstances. Maybe this is it for you - I don't know but I still think basics, like food and gas should not be contingent on if she cusses at you or apologizes. She's using that money mostly for the family as a whole and the kids.

I essentially agree with most of what you say.  I later took the van out and filled it up by myself.

The fridge is full of food, mostly bought by me.

I 100% agree with your "stance" on your Mom, that you would make sure she was not hungry.

I would even extend that to my wife's FOO, assuming there was true need.

Interesting thought in how I can bring out the best in my wife.  I would initially argue that is what I'm doing.

Reinforcing good behavior... .ignoring bad behavior.  Perhaps not responding to bad behavior is better.

Circling back around.  My stance is a little more nuanced than "apologize or treat me nice before you get money"

She can get money without ever talking to me, should she choose.  I'm not trying to control that.

She has clarity on how to gain access to money that I steward.  I don't view it as "my" money, although legally it is.  The money I steward is an extension of my values, or said another way... .as a good steward of this money... I'm the one accountable for how the money is used and what those I've chosen to trust with that money chose to do with it.

I believe I can delegate the authority to spend the money, but I can't delegate the responsibility that the money is spent according to the values I believe go into the stewardship.

That view cuts across many areas of my life, delegating authority but not responsibility.  Since we are having  somewhat Biblical discussion, I don't see my wife misusing the money I steward as ONLY an issue between her and God.  I see that I would be more culpable and held to higher account than she would be (yes... very patriarchal view) .

How did things work out for Adam when he tried to blame it on "the woman"?

All these are very broad strokes... .and yes I like simple things... simple thinking, yet I don't see any Biblical or other example for that matter, that would suggest it's ok to continue with my wife's financial pattern.

FF

Well... decision time came sooner than I figured.

I was doing some exercise to work on my back and the call came in to discuss some shopping.  She was pleasant, I said sounds good and thanked her for handing this.

The money was put in the account and the shopping was handled.

It felt icky... .but I figured I would try it.  I'll find a time in the next day or two to discuss the behavior.

I suppose I'm signing on to try this, since there seems to be an overwhelming majority supporting separating the issues.

What ideas do you guys have about a conversation about the behavior?

FF

What behavior specifically are you referring to?

I tend to think of pwBPD like horses--if the behavior is in the past more than 3 seconds--it's forgotten about and referencing it makes one seem like a jerk. Of course people tend to have a bit longer time frame than that... .

I agree with you.  That is why I said it was complex.  Some times you turn the other cheek, some times you don't.  The same would be true with your wife speaking disrespectfully when asking for money.

As for the Joseph side of things, does this answer your question?

My thoughts are along the lines of, it hurt me when you did such and such, or I am disappointed that our marriage has gotten to this point.  I would like a marriage where we can have tough discussions and disagree, but never get to the point of name calling or swearing at each other.

P.S.  If you are going to try something new, why not focus on prayer for this issue and the upcoming conversation?

Not really... .

My point was (going from memory here... .) that Joseph made the jump through hoops to confirm their intentions and yes he did eventually move past the hurt in the relationship.  It was certainly more complex than turn the other cheek.

Ugg... .been a while and don't have time to read that story again.  Hopefully I got the gist of it.

FF

For me, I think behaviors are best addressed in the moment. Trying to talk about them a while after the fact is less effective.  I also think your wife is aware that the cussing was hurtful and sort of apologized.

I also think it is good to use "I" rather than "you" in discussions. "You" tends to be triggering. The next time she cusses, or says something hurtful, respond from the "I" position. " It hurts when I hear this" then be quiet. A conversation can't continue without you participating back. Sometimes it takes repeating, especially when being "baited" into a conflict. You can also use " I am feeling too upset to continue this conversation at the moment" and retreat. This has the potential to change a pattern of circular argument. It may not get you the resolution you are wanting in the moment, but it may change the behavior over time as the cussing, insulting doesn't have the same impact as it did.

Well, in the Joseph situation, a couple of thoughts.  First, the Bible accurately records what Joseph did.  It doesn't mean he made the right choice.  Second, I already agreed that turn the other cheek is situational in its use.  So in this situation Joseph felt that turning the other cheek wasn't the appropriate response. 

And let's not forget that Joseph didn't have the benefit of the teachings of any of the Bible, especially those of Jesus.

FF,
It's not just this recent issue about her cussing at you and you wanting to keep the purse strings tightly pulled together until you see an apology, remorse or a pleasant attitude--or all three. I'm wanting to address a dynamic I've seen in your relationship in a number of contexts.

Often after things have gone awry, you'll request a time to talk with her and typically she will avoid or ignore that. I would agree that is a reasonable strategy to do with an emotionally healthy person, but as you well know, pwBPD or PPD have a tremendous burden of shame and self loathing.

To ask them to speak about their behavior after the fact is much like rubbing the puppy's nose in a "mistake" on the living room rug. The puppy has no idea why you're doing that, it seems unkind and it's terribly unpleasant.

Like Notwendy says, the time to address these things is in the moment and to show how you've felt hurt by that expression. Otherwise it seems to be sort of a hierarchical thing of "Come to the Principal's office and we are going to address your behavior."

Cat

So... .how specifically do I address it in the moment when a person screams "effe you" at you at the top of their lungs... spins on their heals... slams the door on the way out.

If not then... when?

FF

Good point! Since she texts you frequently, maybe with a text saying, "I felt hurt by that. Let's please come together and work things out."

Except... .I don't text (or rarely text about things like that)... .

Zero... zero of our counselors we have had over the years have suggested that was a good idea.

Let me drive my attitude back towards "big picture" 

You are correct... .the way I'm doing it is likely to work with "normal" people.  That's intentional.  If that makes my wife uncomfortable... .I'll trust her to solve it... or not. 

I don't see my role as "saving" my wife from normal, rational, logical results of her actions.

A private conversation to solve differences is a normal result of something like this.

At least... .that's how I see it.

FF

 

‘You are correct... .the way I'm doing it is likely to work with "normal" people.  That's intentional.  If that makes my wife uncomfortable... .I'll trust her to solve it... or not.’

This above from the whole thread will always be your Achilles Heel in trying to address your issues with your wife. It places your marriage in a double-bind. Your wife cannot do what you want from her because your expectations of her are to behave as any other wife would in this situation. She cannot. The intentional nature of your approach, in wanting her to step up and address her misdemeanours, sets her up every time to fail because you will not meet her where she is.

What is it you expect to be different this time given the pathology of her behaviour?

It’s an old one but a good one, how would you advise someone on reading this thread within the evidence based parameters of what we know works for our SO with BPD?

"She cannot"... .is a bit strong.  Sometimes she does.  Yes... it's certainly less than half of the time.

I would feel totally differently if she was much "lower functioning" or "rarely" demonstrated the capacity to do the things I expect (basically have a normal conversation)

My intentional nature... my approach is intended to meet her where she is at... .and clearly communicate that "I'll be over there should you wish to talk further about this... "  with associated validation and "tools" to try and make sure she "hears".

She may make a choice to that she wants to stay where she is... .and I'll respect that and not persecute her for that.

She may make a choice to "come on over" and try... .at which point I need to be super flexible and try to honor her efforts, which we all seem to agree are unlikely to be consistently "at the standard".

A conundrum of mine is whether or not I should "honor her efforts" to apologize for in person slights... .via text/email.  She is (undeniably) doing more than many pwBPD by doing that.

My current plan... .for after final paper and speech are uploaded later today... .is to perhaps use that as a starting point of a conversation.

"I appreciate you apology... .xyz... .then perhaps some validating questions about the situation"

Totally open to thoughts and ideas.  My intention is not to be argumentative... .but to sharpen my focus/consider angles I haven't considered properly before.

Thanks!

Back to paper editing... .

FF

To expand on the excellent observation sweetheart made about your wife's difficulty responding to your requests for apologies, or just to talk things over after conflict:

A given that for just about anyone participating here is that they have a partner who demonstrates emotionally stunted behavior. For whatever reason, this individual didn't learn adult skills and during times of conflict, reverts to a childlike response. Some people's partners are highly successful in their professional lives and some are not functional at all in the work world.

I think that we can make the mistake of assuming that our partner has greater capacity and a responsibility to behave better if they are high functioning. (I have.) That may not be the case when they're dysregulating and/or not operating out of the prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that controls executive functions).

Something you may not be aware of, FF, as a very logical, rational person who is able to keep his feelings in check--is that your calm demeanor can be really shaming to your wife. (I had to learn this myself. My husband felt like I was judging him because he was embarrassed by his own behavior while I remained calm and in control.)

You might not want to add to her shame burden by asking her to talk about her behavior in the past tense. That can be shaming to a normal person--just think how that might be for someone with a personality disorder!

I often view these problematic situations in the context of animal training strategies. (Sorry in advance if this sounds reductive or insulting, but we, people and animals, all learn things in a similar manner.)

When you're trying to teach a behavior, you break it down into small chunks or bits and you teach and reinforce those particles of behavior. You certainly don't expect to hand a two year old a book and tell them to read it. You teach the alphabet, letters one at a time, then words, then how words are a part of sentences, etc.

Likewise with your wife, if you're "shaping" a behavior, you reward any "tries" and her efforts to apologize via text/email are pretty big tries in my book!

In animal training, if you don't recognize the tries, then ultimately the animal gives up offering them.

There seems to be a disconnect in what you write in the above response to your deliberations throughout the entirety of the thread.

Maybe the thread has helped you process and work through the impasse that has been evident in your previous responses.

I wonder then if the disconnect is also felt by your wife, whilst on the one hand you say you are meeting her where she is, and yet on the other your actions/behaviours toward her say differently. This maybe why you are met with cursing, and to you, unreasonable behaviour from her. This is the nature of a double-bind in a marriage.

Meeting her where she is would indeed be to use texting as a way to facilitate conversation later after an outburst.

A simple text using SET and an offer of a chat later is a way in. I am not suggesting long screeds in response to your wife’s emails, just reaching out after she slams the door, or goes off cursing.

If you are seeing a disconnect... .please point it out.  There very well may be one.

By my way of thinking... ."I'll meet my wife anywhere... "  whether or not I'll stay with her is another matter.

I think we are perhaps saying the same thing, yet in a different way. 

My wife is in bad place... .I email/text her a bit and then "show her" or "offer" that a deeper and fuller conversation can be had at a better time... .and let her know when that works for me... and that I'm interested in when it works for her.

Then... .respect her decision to accept my offer... .or reject it.

I think we all agree that long back and forths via email with all the rewriting of history and shifting questions/replies/accusations and not something any of us should be part of.

Interestingly enough... .I faced this very issue about 10 minutes ago... .perhaps I'll post the exchange in a bit.

Yes... .big picture, these posts are very helpful in my working things through.  Seriously... .if there are places where it appears I'm being logically or rationally inconsistent in my approach... please let me know.

FF

I'm going to chime in with Cat and Sweetheart- that just because she can act "normal" at times and is higher functioning - that this is something she can always control.

I consider my BPD mother to be low functioning and it isn't a lack of intelligence or education. She's actually very intelligent but her difficulties in emotional regulation affect her day to day functioning so much that she isn't a high functioning person. Yet, she has her moments of ability and that created an illusion that- well if she really wanted to, she could act that way all the time. I think this was erroneous thinking.

My H is a lot like Cat's H- very high functioning in the workplace and educational setting. I think this is a more controlled situation than an emotionally intimate relationship and dealing with children as a parent- children can have their own emotional moments and also parenting requires flexibility. In the workplace- one can be a master of a topic- law, business, teaching, and work relationships are more formal and superficial. But I also think it takes a lot of effort to maintain composure in the workplace if someone has difficulty regulating emotions, so they would tend to let loose at home. It was a surprise to see my competent H who isn't anything like my mother, start to have a fit over the smallest thing with me- yet stay perfectly composed with others.

Home is less controllable. You can make plans, and then a child could have an earache. Or you don't sleep well one night. I think pwBPD are more vulnerable to stresses which means some days they are more able to emotionally regulate than others- this is confusing if  they are high functioning and can do it most of the time.

I used to try endlessly to have close "heart to heart " discussions with my H and resolve issues with a sincere verbal apology and this didn't work. It would mostly result in a circular discussion or the conversation would deteriorate. If I tried to push the topic, he would feel as if he was being attacked. I had to learn to accept tha the partial apology is the apology- if he gives any clue that he figures he transgressed something- that is it. Pushing for more than that is triggering. There isn't any point in doing that as it isn't going to get the resolution I hope for. I don't know the source of this. This is a man who would have been capable of getting an 800 on the verbal part of the SAT in high school. ( and probably did or came close to it- and actually I think my mother could have done this too if she took it)  but intimate, vulnerable, discussions I think are a different skill.

It made me sad to realize this probably was not going to happen- and that it is a true inability but it is better for me to accept that an not push it. I have gotten a few brief verbal apologies from my H, but not a real one from my mother. A while back she did something pretty hurtful and I pushed it with her and finally got a " well maybe I think I might have done it but maybe I didn't".   I realized that is probably the best she can do.

FF, it isn't easy to be married to someone with BPD, but I think at some point it may help to ask yourself is the cup half full or half empty and what do you want to do about it?

Correct... and the more practice she gets at it... the better it will be.  Knowing that it's unlikely to ever be "normal"... by our standards.

It is hers to control... .not mine.  I've got my own stuff to deal with.  She's obviously got her stuff to deal with.  Keep the pots separate.


I'm not expecting her to do it well "all the time"... .I'm also not going to be part "covering for her" or "enabling" her.  (not really happy with those words at the moment... but I suppose they will do)

FF

You asked about the "disconnect" and perhaps I might try and circle around it. I agree with all these sentences that I've quoted from your last post.

What I'm sensing is that you're not meeting her where she's at. Instead, it seems you're holding an expectation that she should do better, try harder, improve, get better--not sure what language you'd attach to it.

While that expectation of others undoubtedly served you well in the military and business world, I think it's problematic with our romantic partners. You may never give voice to it, but it's likely that she feels that expectation. And she may well feel judged and the resultant attitude on her part is anger and bitterness toward you.

By no means am I saying you should "cover for her" or "enable" her, but accepting her as she is, might very well lead to better behavior from her.

 
I suppose it matters if I'm "meeting here there... where she is" and staying... .or inviting her to come with me somewhere else. (and respecting if she doesn't want to come)

Also... kinda depends on what the issue is if she feels judged or whatever.


If it's an attitude or opinion about something I want to listen to her... understand it... keep an open mind and not judge.  Perhaps even agree at some point.

If she feels "judged" or an "expectation" on my part that we should be able to discuss finances without vulgarity... .well... .I'm ok  with her feeling that.  Probably a good thing she feels that... .because that's how I feel.

I'm just not going to be part of that... and if that has an impact on her life, I'll leave it to her to sort that out.

I do get the point about meeting her where she is at.  It depends if I'm meeting her where she is emotional... .I'm ok with that.

If she's emotional and acting out "at" me (I'm a target for some sort of offload)... .yeah... I'm not going to be there for her.

FF

While that expectation of others undoubtedly served you well in the military and business world, I think it's problematic with our romantic partners. You may never give voice to it, but it's likely that she feels that expectation. And she may well feel judged and the resultant attitude on her part is anger and bitterness toward you.


I think Cat has some good advice. In the military, a mistake could be fatal to many lives. There is no room for error in the military. There has to be high standards, precision, careful planning and steel logic. This isn't a recipe for a happy romantic lifetime relationship. Yes, we should all try to be our personal best but there isn't a well planned out strategy for everything that happens between two people over decades together.


I think my H held me to standards I could not meet when we were first married.  I could not meet his expectations. I didn't prepare meals to his expectations. I wasn't performing in the bedroom according to his (IMHO not realistic ) expectations to be always available no matter what. If I was up all night with a baby, I should not be tired the next day. If I went to the store and didn't buy his favorite something, he'd be disappointed in me. I am not saying you hold impossible standards for your wife- but if she has a disability even normal standards may not be feasible for her.  I don't have BPD but the constant not meeting my H's expectations took a toll on my self esteem and eventually I just gave up trying. Hard to give a hoot when you can't succeed. Instead, I decided to live up to my standards- my own ethics, my own values which is a better way for me to judge myself, but it still hurts to know your spouse is disappointed in you.

And... in the examples that you cite... I think it is an unreasonable standard.  We agree.

Is there anyone that suggest I should accept vulgarity, threats... etc etc as part of my financial life?  Is that unreasonable?

I don't see accepting those things as part of a happy romantic life... .so... I do what is in my power to not have anything to do with them.

FF

FF, I think you are looking at the "effect" not the "cause" here. Of course no one should be subjected to rude unconscionable behavior!

But what is underlying that behavior?

IDK, but I'm guessing it might be a feeling of insecurity. When your wife texted you asking to put money into the account to pay for the gas she was buying for the van and she didn't hear from you because you weren't on your phone, she might have felt very insecure. (The agreement I have with my husband is that I get a monthly stipend because I cashed out nearly all my investments to build a big house where we could live together. Nine times out of ten, he forgets to give that to me at the beginning of the month and I feel very insecure, even though I know he'll give it to me when I ask and he's always embarrassed that he's forgotten. I've mentioned a direct deposit in my checking account, but that hasn't happened yet.) If she doesn't have some flexibility with her finances, and I suspect that a teacher's salary doesn't go very far with 8 kids, she might be feeling a lot of stress if she gets below a certain amount in her accounts.

I'll admit that I get a little pissy when it's the tenth of the month and there's no check forthcoming. I typically wait as long as I can because I want him to figure it out on his own--which usually doesn't happen. Now that I see the pattern over and over, I realize that he's not trying to be passive aggressive, but that he's a space case about certain things.

So your wife may have felt uncomfortable about the financial arrangements between you two if she feels like she lacks a safety net and thus, the bad words and ugliness.

I'm not trying to defend her behavior, but rather look at what might have been the cause of it. And certainly how you manage your money is a function of how disrespectful she has been of your wishes in the past where she's given huge chunks of money to her family without expecting repayment and certainly without asking your consent.

There's another dynamic between you two that seems possibly related. She wants to have a religious marriage and in your denomination, it seems that the wife agrees to a subordinate role with her husband. She wants that, yet she doesn't want you to be in charge. She resents working but at times seems to enjoy the independence and self esteem that comes with her job. She wants you to have a job but discounts the effort that you're putting in to get an advanced degree so that you can have more flexibility and income in the workplace.

I'm trying to come up with a metaphor that can describe this situation and the best I can do is of a bratty pre-teen girl who resents her parents for the rules and limitations that they place upon her whereabouts and at the same time, also wants the safety of parental supervision. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

You and my P could have written exactly the same thing about the bratty teen and how odd it is about the religious thing... she won't do what she wants.

My wife and I have no financial agreements.  

Why should I make agreements with a person that doesn't keep them?  I used to think that "this time" she will keep it.

OK... in truth... .we have an agreement that lasts for an hour or two... .I transfer $$ and she buys something.

So... I suppose that's about all the financial agreements that we do.

For clarity... .she buys the food she wants... when she wants or when she doesn't want to "deal with me".

There is no agreement that she spend any of her teacher salary on the family... although I know she does.  I don't discuss it with her.

I get it... that this is an odd situation... .

Compared to Cat... her husband honors his agreements (that I know of).  My wife doesn't.  She may for a while... .but the moment she wants to do something else... "poof"... .then I'm supposed to understand.

I used to react to her.

Now... by and large she reacts to me.

I'm sure that's uncomfortable to her... .and wish her well getting used to it.  Just like the bratty teen... perhaps she'll grow up.

FF

I understand how Cat feels about asking for money. I feel very subordinate, insecure when I need to do that as well. Some of this also is from how I was raised with the money situation in my FOO. I've both worked and been a stay at home mom, and I think how the spouse who either earns the lesser of the income is treated in a marriage about that can either harm or hurt the marriage. Mostly I think I wanted to feel that we were partners and that I had value and my contributions were valued. I know in Cat's situation, taking care of grounds and animals is significant work- and so is taking care of house and children but money is a tangible power and it can be abused in a relationship.

FF, although your wife has broken your trust with large amounts of money, would you consider an allowance each month, or bi weekly- equal to the amount she asks you for on the average? This way, if she needs gas, groceries, she doesn't have to ask you each time? If you are concerned she may not manage it, then bi-weekly would be a smaller amount at one time.

What I have is a household account that I manage myself for daily/weekly household expenses. My H and I over the years have decided on a budget and the amount is automatically deposited from a portion of his salary.  My job earnings are modest and they are earmarked for long term savings or unexpected extras. This way, I don't have to ask for grocery or gas money. I know this works because I don't mismanage it, but this also works with a teen ager or college kid- this is your monthly budget for school- for books, food, clothing and if you blow it all on something else- then that money isn't there. So if your wife spends it on something else, then, it would be her problem to solve. It doesn't sound like she'd leave no money for food for the kids. The issue for you is if she gave some to her family- but if it is her "allowance" to manage, then she, as an adult, can make her own choices. It's the same with a teenager. If they use their money to buy something expensive- then they learn there isn't money left for other things they want. This is how they learn to manage it.

It seems the main thing that irks you is your wife giving money to her family. I don't think it is uncommon that couples have expenses that irk each other. If it is illegal- like drugs- that's a different issue, but some people have a weakness for buying clothes or shoes, or a fancy car, or something the other spouse doesn't agree with but as an adult, we need to have some autonomy to make these decisions and budget for them if it is possible- and also not break the family bank.

I understand the concept of being a good steward of your money and how the idea that some of it could go to your wife's dysfunctional FOO feels wrong to you, but there is also the dynamics between you and your wife to consider. I agree that she shouldn't have access to a major sum of money, but would an allowance for her be a better compromise in terms of your relationship? It seems you wish to continue being married- and even if the relationship is difficult- would this help ease the money tension between you?

I figured that I might try to "graduate her" from what she is doing now to more of a monthly sum thing... or weekly... or whatever.

In my mind... a couple calm months of money would be rewarded.  We really never got to that point.


Also... .I would certainly see an allowance as a "deal"... .she would blow it... .I would say no... she would resent me... she would stomp around house and cuss.

So... I see it as shifting her resentment around, vice really "fixing" anything.

The basic idea is still there that there is a limit... .she blames me for that.

Note:  I would be up for this idea as a matter of some compromise, but I doubt it would be something I "pushed".

FF

Right, I don't think it's going to fix all of the resentment, but it may give her some more autonomy - that is - if she is able to be trusted with it.

If "victim mode" is the default mindset, the resentment may just shift to something else, but that is her condition.

You have raised teens. No doubt you've seen a few stomping, cussing episodes from kids. This part you may not be able to change in your wife if her emotion regulation is at that level. It may help to not take them personally.

I see the idea of more autonomy.

Right now, the way I see it, is she is in charge of her own autonomy, since she gets to decide how and when to spend whatever she brings in.

I think I've done pretty good not taking it personally.  In fact, my P has been telling me lately that "I'm spending too much time in my head... "... .vice "my heart".

There are good reasons for it (nothing to do with BPD)... .and so there isn't really a concern.  I've been trying to have more "feeling" convos with my kids... .and I offer them here and there to my wife.

FF

Just to add my 2 cents.  Each time she has to ask you for money is a potential conflict.  If you can reduce the number of times that she has to ask, while ensuring she doesn't blow up the family's finances, I would count that as a win.

I agree with Fian. This repetitive asking reinforces the parent/child dynamic in your relationship, definitely not something desirable.

FF,
I've been "lurking" on this conversation for a while.  I have considered chiming in earlier but couldn't quite put my finger on what I was seeing.  I think your comment above is getting me a bit closer.

It seems to me that you are behaving in a very "rational" way, but you are limiting the scope of your rationalization based on fear and a desire for self protection.  This is entirely justifiable based on your past experiences with your wife.  She has proven herself untrustworthy both in terms of her handling of money and in terms of her treatment of you.  Where I think I see a "fatal flaw" in your reasoning (and it seems others who have commented see this too) is in linking those two topics. 

I'm going to ask you to picture the beginning of the story of the prodigal son.  Did the Father deny the son his inheritance because it was requested before it was due, because it was going to be squandered, or because it was asked for in a disrespectful way?  Now look at the end of the story.  Did the Father require an apology from the son before gifting him with a ring and fine robes and ordering a feast? 

I know you can argue that the Father didn't keep sending the son money while he was away and that the apology was more than implied by the son's humble return home, but take a moment to step back from your head thinking and think with your heart.  I think you'll find the knowledge that some blessings are not tied to relationship.  "He makes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous".  What if you looked at "gifting" of a reasonable amount of money (an amount that you can afford and possibly a little bit more) as a blessing that does not require but may invite relationship.  I think that your assumption is that such a gift would be taken foregranted and maybe it will, but I think you're linking of money and respect in your risk assessment has overblown the cost of her taking the gift of money foregranted.

As I see it, you are setting up a situation that you hope will "buy" her respect.  You hope that by rewarding respectful behavior by opening your wallet will teach her to be respectful.  The truth, as I see it, is that she should be respectful of you regardless of whether your wallet is open or closed (I think you'd agree with that, but here comes the part that you'll probably argue with) and your wallet should be open regardless of whether she is respectful or not.  Unlike your business dealings, this is not a contract relationship (head).  This is a covenant relationship (heart).

Which brings me to what I see as the true issue.  I don't think this is about money or respect.  I think it's about invitation or isolation.  As you said in an earlier post, you are in your castle.  Your wife is welcome to come join you in your castle, as long as she comes well dressed and uses the secret knock.  She's received multiple engraved invitations stating such.  Dress code is clearly detailed, you've shown her the secret knock.  She's come over recently and set fire to the bridge by cursing at you.  Rather than start gathering lumber to rebuild the bridge, you started widening the moat.  Nothing gets in and nothing goes out unless she finds a way to bridge that gap.  You're safe, and she may eventually decide to build a bridge and come on over, but unless/until that happens, you're isolated. 

What if you lower the dress code?  What if you send a few boards and a box of nails over to her?  What if you leave the castle.  I know you've done these things before with mixed results.  Was it worth it?  For your heart - not your head - was it worth it?

Please don't take this as a judgement on which approach is "right".  As you know, I burned the bridge, put alligators in the moat, and dBPDxh moved into a different castle.  I am remembering that in the weeks/months before I burned the bridge (but before the alligators were delivered) you were asking me similar questions.  Would it be worth it to lower my expectations of dBPDxh?  Would it be possible to extend an invitation?  I remember not responding to those questions because I was ashamed of my answers.  I've made peace with those answers now and believe that there are times when the drawbridge comes up and the guards are set at the gate.  But I also know the price of those decisions.  I don't hear you considering divorce, but I think that the effects of the direction you are heading are essentially the same.

What do you think (head) about what I have said?  What do you feel (heart) about what I've said?

BG

Sharp questions... .separating the "thinking" and the "feeling".  I'll give a quick answer for each... and then try to ponder some of the things you have mentioned.

Part of the "deliberate" way I approach things is to do the "quick reaction" and make sure I get "what my gut says"... .and then compare that to what I think and feel a few days after turning things over in my head for a while.


Funny you mentioned the prodigal son story... .because I've considered that story quite deeply... because I may be called on some day to be the "father" if my "son" (FFw) ever wants to come home. And... yes... .I'm ready to do that, if she gets anywhere... and I mean "anywhere" close to what I see as having happened in that story.

Full disclosure... I've not read those verses in a while... .so if I mess up the story... .please call me on it. 

As I see it... the prodigal son "intended" to beg his Dad to let him be a servant.  I can't remember if those words actually came out, but lets assume it's obvious to the Dad there is a "broken" and "repentant" child there.

The Dad celebrates

Versus what I see in my own relationship (again... broad brush)... ."Dad... I'm back... .first guarantee me you will replace everything I have squandered and then I will let you know the type of relationship that I will allow you to have with me.  And... Frankly Dad... .only two "fatted calves" tonight... come on... I'm worth more than that... "

That's the consistent "message"  that I see from my wife.  "put everything back first... then we talk"  (and... I've done that before... many... many times)

OK... .I'll post this... and I'm really hopeful I haven't messed up the prodigal son story... .

FF

How do I "feel"?

Well... .on a broad brush level you have captured things.  I am somewhat sad "that it's come to this" and I do "still feel" that debit card bounce off of me and I still "feel" the realization that our finances would be completely... completely different after that.  (I'll try to post some links to old posts) so it kinda makes sense.

I wrote my wife a very emotional letter... .one of those that I and many others advise people to write... .and not give.

FF gave her the letter. 

The gist of the letter though was that I would be "waiting at our spot by the river" for her to come talk.  What was unsaid... .but I suspect my wife understands, is that I won't be "talking" much in other spots.

So... .she wants to go over to crazyland and talk... .I'll skip it.  If that ends the marriage... that will be sad, but I won't be part of crazy to keep a marriage intact.  No... .simply no.

Clarity... .I have a hard time imagining how this would lead me to file an action to end our marriage and I don't think it would lead my wife to... but you never know.
 
Luckily... .a similar strategy has pretty much gotten rid of divorce threats.  One "implied" threat in months is really good compared to years ago.

Anyway... "feelings"... .I'm sad about this and it is a sad situation.  There is a lot of RA in that statement... I can be sad without doing crazy or unwise things to "fix" the sadness.

Let me find the links so perhaps this makes more sense.

FF