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Ok, so, first of all, I had an amazing weekend with my daughter this weekend. If you recall from my previous posts, my STBX had been stonewalling me on my requests for equal parenting time. After some back and forth with our attorneys, I got 4 days in a row with my daughter and it was awesome!

I had put out a proposed parenting schedule a week and a half ago, and my wife still hasn't responded to it. So we are left with ad hoc negotiation, which, trust me, I get it now - that's not a good thing. My proposal, to be fair, was that for the next several weekends, I get time with my daughter, and my STBX gets nearly every weekday. It was a short term plan, and it was based on the fact that my wife does NOT work outside the home, has been around the house on weekdays for 4 years now, and has recently been out every weekend night for a few straight weeks. I thought it would be the best temporary solution without disrupting either of our schedules, but I could understand if, in the response, she wanted to adjust the weekends.

For reference, we're still living in the same house for now, both for financial reasons AND because the parenting custody details are obviously not finalized yet.

This is what went back and forth today:

This was STBX's e-mailed response, copying her attorney:

I don't get this... .doesn't this put my STBX in a negative light with her unwillingness to work directly with me? Is this the beginning of her sabotaging herself? Or is she making some sort of power move that I'm missing?

Any help interpreting this would be appreciated. And also, are there any tricks to being able to communicate better here in this kind of "early stage" ad hoc situation? Or would I be better of forcing the issue sooner rather than later to get things legally nailed down?

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When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323828.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329171.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329172.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329173.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329174.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329175.0)

I think this is just the standard divorce drama, DB. Try not to get caught up in it.

You wife is flexing her new muscle and her independence here, a bit. She doesn't know how to do that gracefully. You are trying to negotiate. It's maddening, but its typical.

Everyone tries to negotiate a divorce in the beginning, but in the end, we all end up with the standard formulas used in your county. Most HC lawyers will encourage you to follow the formulas and to parallel parent until a year after the verdict.

Why not ask your lawyer what the standard custody/visitation packages are, pick the one that is closest to you needs, and draft temporary orders for the judge to sign. Her attorney will most likely tell her not to fight it as the judge is going to approve it.

It won't be the optimal plan and you will likely be dropping your daughter in daycare or losing days because you are traveling, but that is the reality of the situation.

Why copy her attorney? Most likely, because in the drama triangle, she views the attorney as the rescuer. She doesn't see herself in a bad light -- she sees herself as the victim. But don't worry about it -- you don't need to justify yourself to her attorney.

As Skip says, this sort of fighting isn't atypical for early days. I will note that one issue with your proposed schedule is that you're considering it fair that she get all weekdays and you get all weekends -- it's more typical for both weekdays and weekends to be rotated between parents -- especially with day care and school, weekdays aren't really viewed as equivalent to weekends.

Beware that lawyers don't wants to get in the middle of the day-to-day stuff, good ones will know you can't afford their constant intervention either.


Generally the typical schedules work best, they're time-proven and the courts are comfortable with them.  Non-standard schedules are usually for police, firefighters and hospital workers who have required odd schedules.  Rather than letting her figure out what she wants, really hopeless, just tell her what you will be doing.  Yes, she will complain, probably even refuse, but since she's not sincerely negotiating and you can't fight this battle every week, probably best to tell her what you will do.

For example, a standard equal time schedule for younger children (my teen son still has it in the summers) is one parent takes Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent takes Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the 3 overnight weekends.

I recall talking about reducing exchanges with alternate weeks (7-7) since she made exchanges into confrontations.  My Custody Evaluator said that was too long for the child to be apart from me.  My lawyer exclaimed, ":)o you want the court to think it's okay for her to have your child that long?"

When you are divorced, with your work schedules, etc. what do you think will work best for you? Can you handle 50%/50%?

Here are your state's 50%/50% standard schedules... .
 |---> Alternating every 2 days
 |---> 2-2-3
 |---> 3-4-4-3
 |---> 2-2-5-5
 |---> Alternating weeks
 |---> 2 weeks each

This can be confusing for the best of us, DB. Truthfully, my eyes glazed over when I read your proposal  :)

It took a while to get used to it.

Can you mark up a calendar snapshot (a week, and a month)? It might be better to view it at a glance.  Less confusing  (triggering). Given your business trips, I would leave that flexible.  

We are on 3-2-2-3. Friday evening through Monday morning are the 3s (me). Monday Tuesday her, Wednesday Thursday me, F-M morning her, etc.

My final schedule is a 60/40 split favoring me. It's a two week rotation. On week 1, I have M/W/Th. On week 2, I have M/T/Sa/Su/F. She also has after-school pickup until 5:30 on days I'm not available. And then there's a separate holiday schedule... .

It gets complicated, but starting with a basic rotation for a temporary agreement (along with any upcoming holidays that are important) is a good start.

Hey, DB, hang in there.  I liked Skip's idea of picking a standard package from the menu and proposing it as a temporary order.  Or, if you really prefer your proposal, have a livable standard option in your hip pocket as a Plan B.  Is there a standard option that you could feel good about?

Have you considered a mediator for this one issue?  If your custom schedule actually would be best, or if she has reasonable concerns with it, it would be nice to figure that out.  Sitting in the same rooms or separate rooms, with someone bringing the issue to closure in a session, might be worth considering.  Thinking about it, though, she may be likely to reject a suggestion of a mediator in an effort to maintain power, and if her attorney isn't a problem-solving attorney, a suggestion from your lawyer to hers may not fly.  Do you think mediation is worth a shot, or no?

WW

Wentworth, great suggestion, but my STBX rejected the idea of mediation out of hand, so I think that's a non-starter. I had the same thought, and maybe my attorney knows some tricks, but it seems unlikely, especially given the "talk to my lawyer" stance she seems to be firm on.

Fair question, but yes. I do travel occasionally, more so recently because of new-hire training and backup of some recent team departures, but I just had a good conversation with my manager today and he's very sympathetic and will work with me. Sure, I will certainly be dropping D4 off at preschool / daycare during the day during the week, but its actually not a bad thing. As I've read, and experienced, she thrives in a social consistent environment like the school she's at. My STBX will do the same once she graduates in January.



Here's what I've done so far... .

When I saw things going down the way they are, I found some online software to help me create a schedule and a plan.

On April 16th, my attorney wrote a letter to opposing counsel proposing a standard 3-4-4-3 schedule, which I created - it looked just like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/3-4-4-3.php

My attorney shared the concern about weekends that all of you did, but we proposed it none the less. I could obviously build a new proposal which shifts the 4-3-3-4 schedule to accommodate split weekends, but the idea was make the proposal and let opposing counsel accept or reject it. The other schedule that would work for me is 2-2-3, which I would propose to be done the way ForeverDad described:

Here's how I think it would look laid out on a calendar:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/2-2-3.php

In any case, tomorrow it will be 10 days and no response to my original proposal.

So, tomorrow afternoon I have a telephone consult with my attorney and I'm going to ask her what our next move is. MY feeling is that time is of the essence, and at one point my lawyer DID say if they reject or refuse to respond, we'll just take it in front of a judge and get him to sign it.

Without that, here's my dilemma  - my STBX seems to be treating our daughter like a football. Once she has possession, she's going to hold on to the ball for as long as she can. If I sat back and waited for her to say "Hey, would you like some time now?" I'd be waiting forever (not that i'd ever sit back). As you saw, I've tried to be proactive and assertive and say things like "I will take Phoebe on xx days and I'll hand over to you for yy days" and now she's punted it back to her attorney (flexing muscles as Skip suggested? Looking for a rescuer as flourdust suggested?). Maybe I ignore my STBX and just continue to send her e-mailed statements like the one above? Maybe I change my tone (probably not)? Maybe my attorney needs to make another call to her friend at my STBX's attorney's office (this is what moved it forward before)? Maybe we just say to heck with it and go straight to the judge (liking that idea the most)?

I'm pretty stressed out and confused by this, so I really hope I can get some clarity tomorrow after talking to my attorney.

To compound things, I also just learned something else.

My STBX is going to rental agents around our town and neighboring towns telling them she's trying to escape from an abusive marriage, and won't they please rent to her to save her and "her" daughter from a horrible situation. She's telling them that I refuse to vacate the house so she needs to for her safety. I should probably ignore the drama in the message and just take a deep breath, but it's hard.

The other complication here is that the rental application I know about is in a neighboring town in a different school district. My daughter is about to start Kindergarten in the fall, so this raises big questions about where we will ultimately register her, the disposition of the house, and a bunch of other logistical stuff.

All these details seem like items that make my moves more urgent to get ahead of things - am I seeing this correctly? Or is this more of the standard early-stage back and forth that I should just calm down about and it will all work out in the end?

I agree with others that some kind of standard or easy to follow and consistent schedule is best. It's also the least triggering for your STBX. What I found whenever my DH tried to offer up a more nuanced solution with his ex she would immediately become defensive, believing he was trying to pull a fast one on her and trying to rob her of something and she just couldn't see the angle. So simple was always best even when inconvenient.

I don't know what your situation is financially, but it might be worth it to remind your STBX that lawyers going back and forth over every little thing is going to get real expensive real quick. My DH's experience was that our L was more than happy to be in the middle of the day to day stuff. And charged $25 per email.

Mediation may be worth considering just so that you can say you tried it that way before this ends up in court. If she's high conflict you can expect no resolution until either right before a court date or in front of a judge.

This last sentence kind of jumped out at me.  How would you answer this if you were replying?

Being serious, not flippant, I'd say keep calm like you would if there's a fire.  You'll be more effective.  But the fire will not work itself out.  Dealing with it quickly is easiest.

I can't speak from experience, but you are very organized, well-prepared, and a problem-solver.  Many, many people, possibly most, go to a judge less well prepared than you are now.  With every day that passes, it seems like her position gets stronger.  Reread the parts in Splitting about emotional facts and recruiting negative advocates.  She's practicing on the apartment rental agents, and undoubtedly getting a lot of validation.  She is learning from each one what emotional facts get the best response.  My inexpert thought is that you want to get in front of a judge before she gets more practice.

Double-checking my readiness assumption... .You have a great schedule, but are you ready for her allegations?  You've seen the complaint, so you have an idea of what's coming.  Have you and your lawyer made the necessary decisions and preparations to address those allegations as needed?  Are you ready to describe patterns of behavior?

Ask your lawyer what happens in court.  Find out if in your county there is a chance that your case could be referred for a same day "emergency screening."  If that is something that happens, and you are ready for it, your organized approach may prevail.  If you're caught off guard, her emotional facts may prevail.

WW

You maybe a bit naieve thinking you canr reach an equitable sensible agreement that is adhered too.

You know your ex best though, but i expect there would be no reason to think things will be any less volatile vitriolic or exasperating going forward ( perhaps even more so, unless you can get a signed an agreed schedule it will only be a source of angst to believe otherewise)

with the possible exception your exes attention has switched to your replacement, where your daughter might prove a distraction to her.

I agree with Wentworth -- calm down, but have a plan to make things "work out."

It sounds like your wife is in Bill Eddy's category "not dangerous, not cooperative." My guess is that she's not likely to work toward any kind of agreement unless there is outside pressure on her. For example, if you have a court hearing date on the calendar, she may be amenable to mediation before the hearing. Or, you may request some form of mediation in a motion to the court to resolve a temporary parenting schedule and other issues, and that may impose pressure to get it done by date certain or have the court decide.

If you aren't already doing so, I would suggest moving forward on creating outside pressure with great haste. The legal system moves very slowly -- if you want to have a parenting schedule established in writing no later than the start of the next school year (which can include details like what school district she is enrolled in, right of first refusal (look it up!), holiday schedule, swapping parenting time, etc.), then you need to get a motion filed with the court NOW.

So I third it... ."calm down".  You don't want to escalate this to high conflict. Once that gate is open, its hard to put the horses back in.

First. You made an unrealistic offer. I don't think the judge would go for this except in special circumstances like you like you have to travel in from out of town to see your child or that you travel for a living.

Second, she has no reason to agree and no benefit to respond quickly. Judge is not going to question her actions as you are all co-habituating.

Have your attorney get a temporary order hearing on the docket. In my opinion, that should have been his first action, it sets the negotiation window. It's more to your benefit to do this than hers, so do it.   :)

Hey, DB -- I'm really sorry that you're going through this nightmare.  The first couple weeks are the worst.  I'm a few months ahead of you in the process.  It gets (a little) better.


Do you have any sort of written evidence of this?  I send screenshots of all uBPDstbxw's crazy accusatory texts off to my L, and he salivates at how big a grave she's digging for herself.


Where I live, fall kindergarten registrations have already begun.  Could you go ahead and get her registered for your current address?  I'd talk to your L first, but perhaps you can beat her to it.

In DB77 state, commonly, local residents wanting their children to start Kindergarten in a new school year will register them early in the same year between Jan-Feb, to start their school year in the following September.

prof, good idea.

You guys are spot on, and as a matter of fact, D4 is already fully registered at our current address as of early March. As long as the issues of custodial parent get settled such that we can base things like school registration off my address, we’re all set. This is a fairly big deal for me  because I live in one of the highest rated districts AND D4 has several friends already and it would be tough to switch so much at once. Either way, though, this ranks lower than other issues.

In regards to evidence, yes, I have a copy of the letter she sent to the landlord. I’m not sure how admissible or what help it would be, but my lawyer is aware of it now. We’re speaking this afternoon.

Ok, *deep breath*... .

I’m hearing all of you - just need to stay calm and treat this like a fire. Great analogy WW - thanks.

My lawyer DID actually say we would file a motion if there was no response, so I’m guessing that will be topic number one this afternoon.

I’ll keep everyone posted.

I assume it will cover all the aspects of temporary orders, like possession of vehicles, debt, residences, bank accounts, what happens with paychecks, travel,  etc. You want to get this in motion before she signs a lease on an $5,000 a month townhome, buys a new car for you to pay for with your retirement account... .  *)

Temporary orders protect you both.

Glad you are having that conversation with your L!

Filing a motion will lead to a couple of outcomes.

1) Your wife's L will be copied on the motion, and they will most likely react by filing a response (disputing everything you ask for) and probably including their own motion. You can follow up by trying to negotiate once the filing is out there ... .this may work, or not. Your wife may act out with you or D4 in response to your filing.

2) You will... .eventually... .get a hearing date from the judge. That date could be faaaaaar in the future. But that date can also provide an impetus to negotiation.

Emotionally, the post-divorce period is probably the closest any of us get to feeling what it's like to having BPD 

It's a pretty emotionally reactive time for both sides.

The difference is that you can return to emotional baseline and regulate your emotions. For her, she reacts in ways that hurt her and you. Problem solving will be extra hard for her, more so than for you.


Best trick I know of is to breathe deeply  :)

And maybe have a trusted friend read over your communication to help you spot stuff that could trigger her. You won't get it right 100 percent of the time but sometimes an extra set of eyes can help you rephrase.

Remember that your wife is emotionally sensitive in the best of times. Right now she's primed for emotional arousal. Small stuff will get overblown.

For example, this:


is probably why she answered with this:


She felt patronized, is my guess. So she punched back by inserting her lawyer into what would ideally by a simple back and forth between you two.

She's probably also having a hard time keeping track of agreements and proposals and days and times and child care and finding a place to live and having her life blown up (of her own making, perhaps), not to mention the emotional nuclear bomb in motion.

More likely, she is reacting to what she feels in the moment.

That's maybe why small things like word choice in an email can set her off.

Really good advice in this thread.

This is a really good point.  There have been several recent instances where I assumed my wife was reading and understanding all court orders and lawyer communications at the same level I was, she wasn't, and she behaved differently than I expected.  I'm not a bit smarter than she is.  I just read the stuff many times to get it straight.

I believe most courts have mediation ordered at the beginning of a divorce or custody case, second only to the temporary order establishing the basic ground rules of temp custody, temp schedule, possible child support, etc.  Be fully aware you don't have to agree to her terms just as she doesn't have to agree to your terms.  No harm in trying, it will show you are trying to resolve the conflict.  The reality is that mediation usually fails for us since our stbEx is too controlling and too entitled at the start of a case.  Settlements are still possible but usually occur closer to the end of the case, such as just before a major hearing or trial.

The odds of her agreeing to an offer you propose are small.  If your lawyer thinks she will use common sense and respond reasonably, then maybe you have a lawyer who isn't prepared to handle a probable high conflict case.  Have you read William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook?  If not, get it quick.  It describes the type of experienced, problem-solving, proactive attorney we need.  While we always hope to settle sooner or later, our lawyers need to be able to take it all the way to a drag-out trial if necessary.

I believe you will need to take the court route as soon as your parenting time gets dinged.  If you wait too long, the court may look at the crumbs you're getting and conclude that "it's working so far so why make a big change to what's happening now?"

While it's predictable that she would be describing you as a bad guy, it is a small step from that to filing allegations that you are a bad guy, either abusive to her or to the children.  Guess what, that can quickly move you into being a non-primary parent.  Sure, the court and lawyers will claim it's only a temporary order but sadly our temp orders often last one or two years, sometimes even longer.  I had two temp orders.  The first was for four months, the second was for nearly two years.  Both had me as alternate weekend parent... .over two years with 22% time.  Yet the final decree was 50% time.  Oh how I wished my temp orders had started better.

I've always been peeved my lawyer didn't try to get fixes added to my temp order.  I recently asked him about that and he said he didn't want to rock the boat, considering that my then-stbEx was filing multiple child abuse allegations in every agency she could find... .hospital ER, sheriff's office, quasi-county child therapy agency, children's protective services, etc.  He was happy the magistrate continued to discount her various but unsubstantiated allegations.

When a parent moves to a new state, a custody case can't be filed there until the parent establishes residency which is standardized as 6 months minimum.  Within the state or county, I'm not sure.  That is one matter to resolve in the temp order.  Usually one parent is designated the primary parent and the child attends in that parent's local school or school district.  If you or your lawyer allow her the time to move outside the area, it may be harder to later get a temp order favorable to you regarding the school.

A good question for your L is to ask how permanent the temporary part of the custody order will become -- it's supposed to be a stopgap temporary measure but often ends up getting rubber stamped into a permanent order.

Changing an order, whether temporary or permanent, is harder to do.

Another question is to ask whether you can agree to piecemeal parts of the temporary order and reject others.

For example, you may be able to settle 95 percent of everything, like the financial stuff, the visitation schedule, etc., but disagree on joint legal custody (or tie-breaker/decision-making, depending on how your state does it).

In which case, the order will say Mr. DB and his now ex agree to all these things except this one thing left outstanding which will be heard before a judge.

And then it will just sit there until you decide to file a motion for this or that.

No one explained that to me so I turned myself into a pretzel during mediation, thinking it was all or nothing.

No one explained the temporary --> permanent thing, either. And I had a good lawyer. 

Maybe in your state you can use mediation like that, where you agree to some things but not all things.

Walking the fine line between panic and calm is really tough when you start these negotiations.

You're handling it well, DB. It's normal to swing toward panic and it takes skill to bring yourself back to calm, even when things remain uncertain.

Hey everyone,

I've spent the past few days getting acclimated to the current situation. So far, there's solid evidence that STBX is already starting with the alienation stuff. I had to make an overnight trip last week and when I returned, my daughter was avoiding me a little bit. Then yesterday, I came upstairs to get some breakfast and my daughter said ":)addy! Go away! I'm not supposed to play with you right now!" I've documented each and every interaction like this. It's mentally exhausting but hopefully worth it.

I'm also holding down my full time job, obviously, which is also exhausting. I'm taking as few vacations days as possible but tomorrow is going to be one of them. I had my daughter today and I have her again tomorrow. I also have a pretty extensive meeting with my attorney planned. We're going to go over quite a bit so I hope to get as many answers as possible to the questions I've collected this past week or so.

There's absolutely no direct communication possible between my STBX and I - every simple request I make via e-mail, like, ":)id you take D4 to a music lesson today?" is met with her standard response "Please send all communication through the lawyers." I ignore this, and I continue to send them directly to her, as well as copy my attorney. The fact is, her attorney is taking 7-10 days to get back to my attorney, so if I had to wait for that, forget about it. Not to mention $$$

Sorry I don't have more of an update at this point - things are moving along and I'm getting to spend a reasonable amount of time with my daughter. It's fairly equal and despite the acrimony handoffs and parenting time are both pretty calm.

I will update again after my attorney visit tomorrow. Thank you for being here, everyone!

-DB

Hey DB, good to hear from you!  We were about to send out a search party  :)  Just kidding, and no worries, we know you've got a lot on your plate, and you know we're here if you need us.

I'm glad to hear that you're getting good time with your daughter!

Regarding the things your daughter is saying, have you been able to record any of it?  I say that carefully, since you would never want to lead the witness or in any way pollute your time with her, nor instigate any incidents.  With that "high road" approach, capturing an incident might be a pretty rare event, and even if you caught it, it may or may not be useful, so it shouldn't steer your actions.  Just something to think about.

Have you started ":)on't Alienate the Children?" yet?  I got back into it yesterday, and am very impressed.  It raised my concern in some areas and reassured me in others.  You need to devour that book.  One of the things that Eddy says is that courts have a bias towards parents who support the parenting of the other parent.  So if you are balanced in your view of your wife's parenting behaviors, recognizing what's not healthy but also supportive of what is, and you come across in this balanced way to the evaluator, that is going to matter a lot.  If your wife is actively engaging in alienation, she likely will bring this attitude to the evaluation session.  It also strikes me that saying "talk to my lawyer" when you ask about a music lesson is not supporting your parenting, or any type of healthy coparenting behavior.  This would be something to mention to the evaluator.  If you are able to provide written materials, a copy of a pair of e-mails where you ask about a music lesson and she says "talk to my lawyer" might be good exhibits.

Keep us posted!

WW

Communicate as much as you can through emails. It is much easier to show the judge what is going on in print. He said/she said happens all the time in court and judges , in my experience, listen to little of it. Having printed emails as evidence holds much more weight.
When we finally got to court, ex used several legal means to extend the time, I had a pile about 6 or 7 inches tall of every homework that our youngest did. They were all signed by ex or me. I made one paper with all the information from the pile. Our youngest did over 95 % of all his homework when he was with me and the little that was done at exs' was so wrong my attorney even found it hard to believe. He was in grade school. I actually had one that was unbelievably incorrect. Our son argued with his mom that she was wrong but she insisted she was right so he changed the answers. He then copied the correct answers on a piece of paper and gave both to his teacher. He explained the situation. I had both copies. My attorney just shook his head and said he couldn't believe it. My ex is a registered nurse so grade school math should not be that difficult for her.
The judge looked at the pile and asked ex if she agreed with the top sheet. She did. That was introduced as evidence. IF she did not then we would have had to go through each piece of paper. That would have taken days and ex knew I was telling the truth so she had no choice. That single sheet was introduced as evidence. The judge is required to make his decision based on the evidence and documented evidence holds more weight in court than verbal testimony. Once I learned that things became much easier in court.
Finding things the courts in your area stress or look for and then providing it is the key.
Also, judges do not want to make a decision unless they have no other choice. Ideally both parents agree to something and the judge signs off on it. Second best choice for a judge is to find one reasonable parent with a plan that does not punish either parent but looks for the childs' best interest. When I learned that I always had a plan and several backups. I tried to anticipate what ex would object to and had a solution for the objection. I wasn't 100 % but I was over 50 % anticipating ex. It took time to get at that point. A few times ex came up with something I didn't anticipate but I did have a solution. Judges love that and go with it. At least I always had my solution approved. Eventually, ex viewed it as not winning anymore and stopped taking me to court.

This stuff goes on in conflicted households, it's not just a BPD/non thing. It can happen during a marriage, too.

Document because it could be useful later on, but also know that this is (sadly) normal stuff when a relationship is beyond repair.

How you respond to your D will matter equally as much as what happens in court. "You can't play with me? How does that feel?" is a good first line of defense.

":)on't play with your dad" says "You should feel bad like me. I don't want to hear how you feel"

vs

"How do you feel?" which says "I am here with you, I care. I'm listening. You're not alone."

What I surmised from my two years in my divorce process was that little was entered as evidence during hearings, usually brief around a half hour, they were more like semi-formal ad hoc settlement formats.  Yes, the magistrate did have to make decisions but little was entered as "evidence".  That gave my magistrate more latitude, more discretion, in making decisions.

So my conclusion is that the more you get submitted as evidence or documentation will limit the court to making decisions shaped by the evidence at hand.  Some portions of the hearings were not "on the record".  I could tell when he went on the record because he would turn on the recording and state so.  So I encourage you to get things submitted or testified to "on the record".

What's really blowing my mind right now is how accurate everything y'all have been at predicting things. So thank you.

Had a long meeting with my attorney today, and we really got into the "problem solving" mode of things. I knew she would be good, but I hadn't quite seen it in action the way I did today.

We went over the full gamut of problems I have, and for each one, we discussed the potential avenues to attack the problems head on. At one point, my attorney came right out and said "She sounds REALLY borderline!" She also said "Look, I know your wife's attorney, and I know his MO. I can refer you out to some other attorneys who I know have back room, handshake relationships with this guy who might be able to get you a deal quickly at a lower cost. But none of them have the energy and the drive that I have, and I really care about you and your daughter." There was something about that honesty that just put me at ease with her.

Now, the truth is I got the eye opening smack in the face that this is going to be expensive. First of all, I have what's called a reconciliation agreement that I signed out of co-dependency. The agreement is horrible for me, and if I let the agreement go into effect, I will pay 100% of the debt, take 0% of the equity in the home, and pay my wife permanent alimony until I die. The good news is that we came up with about half a dozen strategies to attack it, each of which will cost less in the long run than paying what's stipulated in the agreement. At first it sounds like a no brainer to fight it, but, if I lose, I'm out all the money I paid for my lawyer and any experts PLUS the long term alimony. Also, even if I win, taking resources and allocating it to the agreement takes money away from the custody piece, which is truly my priority.

In regards to the custody piece, we talked about several strategies there as well. The option is on the table for me to file a counterclaim including extreme cruelty similar to hers. I would have to pull together dates and examples, which wouldn't be hard. I'm not sure I quite understood the pros and cons of this approach, so I still need to follow up on that. The other problem is that as of tonight, my wife has not agreed to ANY additional parenting time. Every request I've made has been ignored, and my wife has responded that I should send all communication through her attorney.

So, the last piece is that we've put out one last request for their attorney to accept or respond to the proposal I made, and, if they don't respond, we're filing the motion on Monday. At that point, it's my understanding that we'll have a date in 28 days for the hearing. I guess this means let the games begin. I also don't know if we're going to file a motion on all the aspects, including financial and the reconciliation agreement, or just the custody. I admit I'm still a little confused by all that's going on, but I'm also really, really exhausted already.

That's the latest. Thanks for listening. More as it happens.

DB,

Thank you for sharing your update.  I'll leave the strategy advice to your lawyer, but if she advises to go with counterclaims, don't hold back.  You are about to engage in combat, and half measures only prolong a war.  Good luck and Godspeed.

WW

Call the Bluff! You have the proof. What do you have to lose financially? Think custody is different. Don't mix the two. 

Should you check this out a bit more. Get a second/third opinion?

That reconciliation agreement puts this out if the realm of a standard divorce.

I agree with Skip.

This is business.

All lawyers are ethically bound to represent their clients. It's rules of professional conduct. She is saying a nice version of that.

It's great that she cares about you and your daughter. And if that's true, she will understand why you have to do due diligence and at least meet with other attorneys. 

Not all family law attorneys will be familiar with some aspects of a case. In mine, I was referred to a real estate attorney, an attorney to handle the 401K, and an immigration lawyer.

Is she trying to enforce the agreement?

I mean, I can see right off the bat ways to poke holes in that like your lawyer suggested. It has to be reasonable for a judge to enforce it and it doesn't sound very fair.

You may not have to choose between parenting vs assets.  It will take time for custody issues so I'd recommend you defend yourself and even be proactive on both fronts.


From now to Monday... .You are at high risk of some sort of allegation or ex parte (emergency) motion for custody.  She probably won't wait for the court, she will preemptively try to snatch control.  Making allegations, even unsubstantiated ones, while posing as victims or targets is typical in our cases.  And starts soon after separation when there are no orders and in expectation of blocking the other parent from getting a favorable temp order.

Be very careful with any contact you have with her during this sensitive next several weeks.  Focus any contact on only parenting matters or parent-child contact.  Nothing more.  Anything you say or do must be said or done as though the judge were looking over your shoulder.  Don't let her push your buttons to the point where you lose self-control, she will look for any excuse to claim you were aggressive or even abusive.  In addition, you probably should have a recorder running in the background whenever you are near her or communicating with her.  (Low key, don't wave it around to trigger her even more.)  As our member david states, his court told him not to record his ex so his stance is that he's recording himself and not her, and if she inserts herself or her voice into the recording, well, that's up to her.  Back in the day when I was facing repeated allegations, I called it having a unique form of 'insurance' to keep me out of jail.  And I hoped I slept a little less stressed.

Repeat, this next week — and even the weeks until your get a temp order for custody and parenting schedule — are higher risk for her to make preemptive moves to paint you much worse than her.  She and her lawyer will view it as valid strategy and they may get away with it if you're clueless about the risks and how to protect yourself.

One of our most helpful handbooks on the Family Law board is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger.  It is a must-read.  If you don't have it, get it Now!


Some weaknesses of this 'agreement'... .  It is so far out of the range of reasonableness, so one-sided and contrary to typical court outcomes, to fail just on the level of being too far out of normal outcomes.  Was it previously filed with a court?  (Courts are well known to ask both parties if they still agree to the terms, even if they had already signed it.)  Would it be viewed as a prenup or postnup?  Was it notarized?  Were you represented by an attorney?  How can you document that due to the pressures of the relationship you were negatively impacted by your "co-dependency"?  If you're a rich movie star or multi-millionaire with assets coming out everywhere then you may not get much leniency.

Be careful here. You had a history in your marriage of giving up your rights and substantial assets to avoid conflict. Do you see that pattern repeating in this thinking?

My ex knew I was recording and brought it up every time we were in court. I got yelled at by the judge and nothing more. Eventually my attorney said I needed to stop because a judge might decide to do something about it. I couldn't think of another way to protect myself. It took a few days and then I decided to record myself. I have a video camera and I simply point it at me. I talked to my attorney and he said he could argue that in court. The camera keeps date and time on it too. I also have a small audio recorder. That can't be used in court but if the police get involved I can use it to not get arrested.

What is legal and admissible will vary from state to state.  Google "two party consent states" to find out if recording without your pwBPD's permission is allowed in your state.  This typically refers to audio recordings.  If Daddybear77 lives in a one-party state he has considerable leeway with audio recordings (he should check with his attorney).  Video recordings are typically more admissible, especially if you are clearly pointing the video camera at someone (not hiding it or pointing it at the floor to use as an audio recorder).  Videoing someone openly is very escalating, and should only be considered if you are physically in danger, trapped, they are abusing someone else like a child, or the person is already verbally escalated to such a level that videoing's protective role outweighs potential escalation.  Videoing in the presence of a child can also be seen as aggressive, and is not liked by evaluators -- only consider it in clearly threatening situations.

WW

Hey everyone, lots of developments in the past couple of days. So many of the advice, predictions, and suggestions here are proven true and invaluable, so thank you so much.

My lawyer received the response to the 3-4-4-3 proposal from my STBX's firm and, of course, it was rejected. The reasons stated were that I have a "demanding work schedule" and that there are (claimed) issues with domestic violence. The counter proposal was the classic every-other weekend and dinner on Wednesdays. Further, the letter was very contentious with a very aggressive tone.

So... .

My attorney calls me that night. She said "Look, DB, I've been up late at night thinking about your case. I want whats best for you, not what's best for me. And I think the best thing for you would be to see this older established lawyer who I have a LOT of respect for. She's a named partner in a larger firm, and she has a LOT of experience dealing with your STBX's attorney. I took the liberty of calling her already, and she's waiting for your call. I am going to refund your retainer and I think you should give her a call now."

I was stunned. The way she put it, and the way she described it, I just felt so taken care of and put into better hands, it was such a great feeling.

Then, I called this other attorney, and she was also amazing and ready to fight.

Lots of really positive stuff.

So I had the consult with the new attorney and, wow, we came up with a very well thought out strategy. Instead of thinking "eh, maybe we need to file a counter claim for cruelty" it became "YES, of COURSE you're going to file a counter claim! We can't leave her claim sitting out there!" We did extensive analysis of the financial probabilities and determined exactly how bad off I'd be if the reconciliation agreement stood. It's not horrible. And it's not something we're going to fight directly. However, we're going to make it LOOK like we're fighting it, and use it as leverage later on with issues of custody and duration of alimony, etc.

This lawyer is the definition of problem solver, with an appropriate amount of aggression and proactivity. I'm really happy so far.

In related news, I've gotten really far in terms of collecting all my past notes and documentation. I found old checks and bank statements to counter any financial claims. I've found cards and love letters and things of that nature to counter a lot of the cruelty stuff. I have enough evidence to fight the agreement in multiple ways if it comes to that.

The things I don't have, though, are any interim custody or financial agreements, so the next move on our part is to file the motions along with the counter claim. In the mean time, I have about 3 full days with my daughter starting tomorrow and then nothing else agreed to yet. I know my STBX will have at least 8 consecutive days with her birthday and Mother's day coming up, but I'm hoping that after those are done I will get some extensive time the following week. We'll see.

Anyway, that's about it for the update. Oh, and to answer one of the frequent questions I haven't yet, yes, I have read Splitting a few times, and I'm re-reading it now. I'm also going to real through Don't Alienate the Kids after I'm done with Splitting. And yes, now that I'm actually going through it, Splitting makes a lot more sense and is really scary, but in a good way.

Thank you again for reading through this, and if I'm missing something or going off in some wild half-butted direction please tell me!

Hey, DB, what exactly does it mean for something to be "scary in a good way?"  :)

I'm impressed with how the lawyer transition went down as well.  That's integrity.

How is it that you get three days and your wife gets eight?  Just checkin' to see if you're being too nice.  How do you guys even figure it out?  (And then, I have to ask, just to say it into the wind, why if you are living in the same house you can't just share.  You may have asked the same question   )  Oy vey.

You sound upbeat.  You are doing all the right things.  It's impressive.  Keep us posted!

WW

 :)

It all sounds positive, DB! What is the relationship between your new L and the opposing L like?

What does your new L tell you about the judge you may end up with?

Does your new L recommend any kind of custody evaluation?

One lesson I learned was that courts view so much as "just another day at the office/bench".  It doesn't get excited over clear wrongs.  So much negative is permitted in a divorce, presumably the court expects the emotional controversies to calm down eventually.  Sadly, that doesn't happen with our protracted cases.

My ex and I had claims against the other, hers was first, mine was reciprocal.  Once those temp orders were dismissed, there was a 3 month gap before I filed and eventually got the divorce temp order.  Both temp orders cast me as alternate weekend parent, a full 72 hour weekend, with a 3 hour evening in between.  That worked out to 22% time for me overall.

Well, the problem was that between the two temp orders stbEx demanded I agree to supervised time (which court hadn't required) and when I declined she blocked all father-preschooler time.  Even my phone calls to him were ignored.  (Later in her response to my divorce filing she countered that I was, among multiple claims, daily harassing her with phone calls, yes, the calls where I was simply trying to talk to my son.)  It's getting lengthy so my prior post will continue my experience.

Don't give this a minutes thought to this and never react to it. Lawyers make a lot of money by triggering people... .


What you asked for was biased in your direction, what she has asked for is biased with hers.

There are two things here. The time split. You asked 50/50% with all weeks going to you. She asked for 80/20% with every other weekend thinking that best reflects her view of the situation. This is standard opening gambit, bidding.  What it does tell you is that until a temp order is set, she is going to hold out for every other weekend and if the logs enough time in this mod, the judge will just go with the way things are.

I would still get a second opinion on your case and strategy.

So I have two opinions now, one from my original lawyer and another from the new lawyer I saw yesterday.

Do you still think I should get yet another opinion? Is there some strategy or approach that maybe you aren't seeing happening which I should pursue?

I don't know much about the reconciliation contract, but that is serious complexity if I understand you... .does it have the teeth of a prenup? 

There is also temperament. You want a lawyer that will get you to resolution.  Not one that fights. Not one that is timid. You want an experienced lawyer who is an expediter... .many like to stoke the emotions as runs the bills or operate in a totally reactionary mode (which is not helpful).

You are betting a lot on this agent. Pick the right one.

You were confident with your first attorney.  And your attorney recommended someone better for the task.  Actually, that's one of the questions we recommend to ask a prospective attorney, and she made a recommendation without you even asking!


I don't have major qualms with this change.  Amazing that your lawyer is refunding your retainer in full without dinging it for your consultations until now.  I think Skip wants you to be confident and informed with this choice before you leap, considering that the agreement-under-duress could be a sticky issue.

How hard would you shop for a $150,000 car?   :)

Going for a third opinion presents an interesting opportunity.  Assuming that you continue to feel confident in your second lawyer's ability to communicate with you, strategize, problem solve, negotiate, fight if necessary, etc., perhaps the third opinion need not come from someone who is a potential replacement as your main lawyer.  Perhaps it could be someone with more depth in contract law, especially around marriage contracts.  You might even ask your attorney, "If there were someone you would love to have on this case as a consulting attorney to help with the contractual aspect of this case, who would it be?"  There are not going to be that many attorneys out there who have argued complex family law contract cases.  If you find one, you might improve your situation with just a handful of added hours.

WW