BPDFamily.com

I've got a legal thread here where I'm dealing with most of the parenting, custody, and financial stuff - It's  here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324838.0) if you want to take a look at it.

My last thread on Detaching is here - It's all going to hit me one day, but for now I'm getting things done (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324770.0)

I wrote that post on May 7th, which was a little over a week ago.

On the night of May 8th, I decided to write a post to my friends on Facebook. I disclosed my pending divorce, gave a little back story, and thanked everyone for their support and talked about being excited for a new start. The outpouring of love and compassion and support from my friends and family was just phenomenal. I can't tell you how amazing it all made me feel to know that I had such great friends who cared and were happy to see me coping so well.

Now, I have over one hundred friends on Facebook. I've known each and every one of them in "real life" at some point in my life. Some I've been in touch with recently, including the former romantic partner I spoke about. She and I still talk very occasionally, but it's kind of clear that this friend is repeating the same pattern from the past. I felt loved, and I still feel the connection, but that faded quickly.

But on the night of May 9th, another friend I knew when I was 9 or 10 years old, send me an instant message out of the blue. We had no prior romantic involvement, but I certainly "noticed" her when we were younger. She said to me, basically, I know what you're going through. I want you to know I'm here if you want to talk. My marriage is ending in a very similar way, so I'm sorry you're facing it too. I was both happy to hear a friend reach out, but also sad to hear about her marriage.

I responded.

10 hours later, we wrapped up our extremely mutual, two sided conversation where we both shared the details of our partner's behaviors, the things we were experiencing, the things we were doing to prepare for our divorces, the things our children - my D4, her D3 and S5 - were going through. We both had legal nuptial agreements to deal with that were extremely one-sided and very unfavorable.

Long story short, we hit it off. Big time.

For the next few days, we talked constantly. I asked questions, she answered. She asked questions, I answered. We had mutual attraction, clearly. We remembered vivid details all the way back to our childhood years. We both knew about BPD and NPD. I was constantly checking my feelings, wondering if this was just a fling. I kept wondering if I was falling into another BPD / NPD trap - love bombing, desire to be rescued.

I really don't think so. I really think this person is the real deal.

So, we agree to meet. We're both being extremely cautious. Our divorces are brand new. We're both really vulnerable. We both know to take things slow, to get to know each other. But neither of us can deny the feelings we feel.

This morning was that meeting, and oh my goodness, it was amazing. I said this to her today, and I meant it - I've only ever felt what I felt today 2 other times in my life - once with my first love in High School, and then again when my daughter was born.

Look, I am fully aware of exactly how vulnerable I am right now to exactly this kind of thing. I know that I'm not "healed" or "cured" of all the bad behaviors and dysfunctional relationship tools I've used in the past. But each and every step of this, I've taken a deep breath - I've said things like, "don't say what you think she wants to hear, just say what you feel" and "you cannot rescue her. Do NOT try and rescue her." And, for her part, she's doing the same thing - she's not looking to be rescued, nor is she trying to rescue me. We know we need to heal, so we're both seeking our own support - therapists, counselors, all that stuff.

I will also add, I was NOT looking for this. I was NOT prepared to start looking for dates until a LONG time from now. But this just... .happened! Neither of us wanted to go as far as we did, but we just kept falling further and further for each other.

I don't know - am I deluding myself? Is this doomed to failure? I know you don't know any more than I do. But what do I look out for here, other than what I already am? What if this is the one? I'm not just going to say no! I don't feel like saying No even if I should, so I'm not sure I could even say it if I "had" to!

All I know is that I feel happier today than I have in over 22 years, for many reasons. One is her. The other is just life and being free from my relationship that was so toxic.

But a huge part is definitely her  :)

---

When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323828.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329171.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329172.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329173.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329174.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329175.0)

Both I and my SO got in touch with people from our past during our divorces.  For us obviously those contacts were transitional.

But they were beneficial, we were reminded that we were loveable, that we were attractive, we practiced our long dormant flirting/dating skills, we were reminded of who we were before we met our spouses and went down the path to co-dependency, and in my case following my divorce I paid a visit to the man from my past and Panda got her groove on (He was an emotionally safe person for me to do this with).  

Ultimately though, they were not the right person for us just as they hadn't been in the past.  The man from my past was my first love who in the end cheated on me back in the day, and who for the next 30 years went through women at an alarming (to me) rate.  I was his first and longest relationship (10 years).  He was struggling with being single and childless at 50 and had an idealized view of me so he was interested in seeing if there was anything between us just as I was.  But in the end we were not a good match.  I will love him for all of my days both because of our past (16-25 years old) and for his love and support during my divorce (he truly did give me the very best he was capable of for the year we re-connected), but he never was and won't ever be the right person for me.

My advice is enjoy this and stretch those unused dating/relationship muscles, don't plan for the future right now, just be in the present... .just be.

Panda39

Panda, that is truly amazing advice, especially as someone who’s been there, done that.

I can’t ignore the past nor can i live in the future. I have so much to do in the present.

Thank you.

Your story sounds somewhat similar to mine. I met someone by accident on an on-line support group. We became good friends and got to know each other over a year via e-mail, phone, and Skype before I got on a plane. The wrinkle is that she had joined the group thinking she might have BPD. Her severe NPD/Paranoid former spouse had tried to convince her of it. Imagine what I was thinking. But after living with a diagnosed BPDw for decades I had been looking for the signs anyway. Nothing.

So, I risked a trip and was ready to jump on the first plane home... .our first date lasted 5 amazing days. We've had 14 in total lasting up to a month at a time. Coming out of long term abusive relationships we both struggled to open up and trust. But, the shackles have been off for a long time. Six months face time together, 3 calls a day, date nights on Skype for hours when we're apart. I have no worries. For me, getting to know her circle of friends and family was important. Ours has been a difficult transition but healthy. We live on opposite sides of the Atlantic so the exit was always the boarding gate. I'm glad I took the risk. I was fortunate to accidently connect with someone incredible that I've grown to love and appreciate greatly.

We can become so wrapped up in our fear of making a bad decision that we can allow the cognitive oversight to shut down what the heart tells us is right. Trust and stay open, but verify.

Well... .

There's a reason that personal relationships are strongly discouraged in therapeutic settings (such as DBT groups) and on the boards here. The intimacy of exposing our deepest emotional vulnerabilities can easily become another type of intimacy -- but it's based on therapeutic need, not the intellectual and emotional connection between two healthy, independent individuals.

I see a lot of  red-flag  here -- flaming ones. Maybe this will be a short-term therapeutic relationship for both of you. That's the best possible outcome, I suspect.

When I started the divorce process, I imposed a 12 month moratorium on any kind of dating. I wasn't ready to be in a healthy relationship, and I needed to focus on building a new and stable life for myself and my daughter before I added any new emotional entanglement into the mix.

Try to think clearly about this, man. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but the warning signs look incredibly obvious out here.

So, flourdust, can you elaborate on which   red-flag you see here in my story?

Yes, there is risk. No, we’re not moving in together tomorrow   

My priority is absolutely my daughter, and nothing will interfere. I get that. I know that pouring energy into a relationship at this point has the strong potential to derail my efforts. 

What else am I missing? Let’s turn this into a learning opportunity.

Keep up the fight DB.  I just had my four way meeting this week.  As you can imagine a ton of crap was thrown my way.  She wants 50/50 on the kids, but for me to pay CS as if she was primary... .all while she only wants to work 20 hours a week.

Wait... what?  She wants me to have the kids more than I ever had (while keeping a 40+hr a week job), pay her more so she can work half time? 

Laughable.  So many other ridiculous things she claims I have to cover 100% (including tuition)... .and she says take her deal or take my chances at a trial... .all while crying about spending too much money on attorneys.

My point is is that it is very clear all sorts of crap will continue to get thrown at you.  Frankly I find the more ridiculous it is the easier it is to ignore it.  But like you I really don't want to drag this out.  I want to move on with my life.  I'd like to find someone to share love... .

So at what point to you "give a little"?  At what point does giving them some of the unbalanced and unfair things they want actually become plausible.  I'm struggling with what I can live with now to get the F out of this versus how I'll feel about these things 5-10 years from now.

What is your price of freedom?

Walking with you man, take care.
-Oz

It's nice to feel loved being so long wandering the desert of unlove. When Napoleon marched his troops across the desert sands and finally reached the waters of the Nile, some died by slaking their thirsts too much. 

I see nothing wrong with keeping in touch, but you have a lot in process now.  Don't lose your focus.  I'd say the same to her. 

DB, I don't have any advice to give.  I'm just going to walk next to you on this one.

I can relate to feeling connections again.  I can relate to finding someone to talk to.
I can relate to assuming that everyone I meet must pass a BPD filter... .

Over the last few months as my pending divorce has become more known I have had a bunch of old friends reach out.  Now that I'm not wearing a ring and not (terribly) afraid to talk to women again I can't believe how many times I've been flirted with or hit on. 

It feels nice, but I'm terribly cautious.  Trying to juggle two relationships may suck the energy needed to finish out the one relationship that needs to end.

Someone once said to me "The heart wants what the heart wants"  I took that as advice to listen to my heart again.  For so long I was taxing my brain and getting stomped on trying to figure out my r/s w/stbx I forgot what it was like to feel.

I'll quiet down now and let others pass on advice... .

good luck,
-Oz

 red-flag #1: You are currently in transition from a long and toxic marriage to a pwBPD where you exhibited extreme co-dependent traits to the beginning of a divorce process that already promises to be high-conflict and protracted. Your financial future and parenting future are both at risk, and you've got a long, rough road ahead of you. You are simply not ready to be a healthy participant in a healthy relationship, and a healthy woman would recognize that in a hot second.

 red-flag #2: Despite that, you've been connecting on social media with two women you have pre-existing histories with - in one case, it's an ex, and the other is a girl you had a childhood crush on. If you were truly trying to date (which is not a good idea, see  red-flag #1), you'd get out there and meet new people. Focusing on women from your past is a move to seek comfort in regressing to the familiar and safe.

 red-flag #3: What I said above about what a healthy woman would do? Your new (old) friend is doing the opposite. She's also exiting a toxic marriage. A healthy man would recognize she is not good relationship material.

 red-flag #4: Ten hours of co-ruminating about your awful marriages as a first date? C'mon, do I really need to tell you why this is a flaming red flag?

 red-flag #5: "We both know to take things slow... .  So, we agree to meet. We're both being extremely cautious. Our divorces are brand new. We're both really vulnerable. But neither of us can deny the feelings we feel." Every sentence in here contradicts the one before. You aren't acting from  wisemind.

 red-flag #6: "All I know is that I feel happier today than I have in over 22 years, for many reasons. One is her. The other is just life and being free from my relationship that was so toxic. But a huge part is definitely her." Yeah, it's gotta feel great to get some positive attention and begin to fantasize about a romantic relationship with someone new. Fantasies are OK, as long as you don't try to turn them into reality. And I should point out from your timeline that it has been a whopping eight days since you connected with this woman.

You're not healthy. She's not healthy. Neither of you are making good decisions. The consequences to bad decisions can include harming both of your divorce cases and your relationship with your child. (I didn't catch if she has kids or not.)

By all means, co-ruminate with this friend. A little venting to each other can be very validating. But put a stop to the rest of this, and be upfront with her about why you need to do this. That's my best advice for you.

Oz and DB, the point you guys are at (particularly Oz since he's a little farther along) is where folks coming out of abusive relationships are liable to give too much to just get free.  Make it as cold and rational a calculation as possible, with the guidance of your lawyer.  Don't give too much.  Look out for the "rebuilding" Oz and DB of five years from now, regarding the best solutions for parenting and money issues.

WW

Thanks flourdust. You put a lot of passion behind your post and i sincerely appreciate that. Your points about wisemind are particularly useful. You’ve put things into perspective for me.

Hey DaddyBear, You've been through a lot, with rough sledding ahead.  It's nice that you've found someone to compare notes with, but let's face it: you're in a fragile state, which is a good reason to take your time before jumping headlong into a new r/s.  If your new friend is right for you, I suspect she'll respect you more if you're honest about the need to take your time before getting too involved at this juncture.  You have a lot on your plate already, as I'm sure she can appreciate.

LuckyJim

I agree with the posters who have advised you to go slow but I have not been in your shoes, reeling from the emotional trauma of a divorce and so try not to assume anything about how you must be feeling. However, I can share some things I have read.

One of the statements from a book ( Passionate Marriage- not just about BPD) that struck a chord is that- we choose a partner who matches our capability for an emotionally healthy relationship. And the next line was "each of the partners think he/she is more emotionally together ( the book uses the term differentiation)  than their partner"

This doesn't mean you have BPD but that immediately out of a relationship you "match" your STBX wife at the level of emotional health in some ways.

I took a long look in the mirror at myself now and when I was single and cringed at the co-dependent behaviors I had and this affected who I felt a strong connection to and attraction to. Thankfully I didn't date really bad guys, in fact they had some great qualities, but they were basically wounded souls- people who were hurting, and I was a wounded soul as well from being raised with dysfunction. We may or may not have discussed the wounds but we felt them and this was our bond and some dysfunction felt familiar and comfortable to me. I realized that my "attraction" meter was set to attract other emotionally hurting people. To have an emotionally stable relationship. I felt I needed to work on my own dysfunctional traits, regardless of my relationship status.

If I could summarize what happened in one  red-flag for you it would be: you are hurting and you met someone who is also hurting and the initial euphoria of a new relationship feels healing. I can't tell you what is good for you right now- this is your journey to choose and the heart wants what it wants. Just don't lose sight of your own wise mind.

DB, I'm going to chime in with the others and urge you to focus on your most important relationship right now -- yourself.

That being said, I've seen this story work out okay before.  My dad and stepmom were old friends who reconnected while both going through a divorce, and they've been married over 15 years now.

You might also think a bit more about your decision to stay active on social media.  Deleting your accounts is #7 in the Quick-Start Guide in Splitting.  Personally, I've found being away from Facebook during my divorce completely liberating.  I've decided to wait until 2019 at the very least until I return, and I may not even do that!

i couldnt have put it any better or more succinctly than flourdust.

youre new to the Detaching board, and i can tell you this is one of the most common stories that led people here. you cant short circuit the grieving process. this is a decades long marriage. it needs to be fully grieved.

im not going to reiterate it or harp on it. i wouldnt listen if i were you.

what i might listen to, and hope you will, is that likely, if this crashes and burns, its going to hurt badly, and compound your grief. you do have some control over that. you can get clear on if this is a therapeutic bond/relationship where you both help each other heal (through words and hugs), or whether it has the potential to be a long term romantic relationship. i cant discourage making it both, enough.

DB, I would think that your STBX's grad degree being finished soon would be a point in your favor re: alimony also. It's not as if she needs your support to prepare herself for a new career or a return to work - she just needs support for a reasonable period while she finds work. Reasonable being the operative word.

This is good advice.

You will go through these psychological hurdles and become more and more resilient, especially if you stick with therapy and do the work.

You don't want to be feeling fairly healed up in 5 years while still stuck with a bargain you struck during your lowest points.

This isn't about being aggressive, though. It's about being assertive and knowing what is both right and reasonable and fair.

Guilt and obligation and fear seems to go away the better you feel about yourself  :thought:

This is good advice.  I think in many (most?) states, certainly in mine, whether one spouse has supported the other while he/she is getting an education is an enumerated factor in determining spousal support.

WW

Solid advice WW.  My lawyer is doing a good job of trying to keep me out of agreement "creep". She also knows I don't want to leave my stbx unable to care for herself. Because in the end if she can't make it on her own the kids and all this bs will just boomerang back at me to deal with all over again in another year or two. 

Reality is we're only around $4k/year off in requested support. Frankly its a small price to pay... .but multiply that by a minimum 6 years until D16 is off, then another possible 6 years if D11 is healthy enough to go to college.  Stbx wants it put into CS payments (off guidelines).  I want to keep guideline support but get that money to her in other ways such as covering the uninsured medical, taking on more tuition and extra curricular.  Basically my lawyer doesn't want the CS agreement to be so high in case it goes for an adjustment later.  She's also afraid that if I agree to the higher CS payment stbx will ask for me to ALSO cover the extras... .  I can live with a $4k extra hit.  No more.

I dont mean to hijack DB's thread just thought I would share some of the details I'm going through in case it helps him and others with negotiations.

I would say TGIF, but I'm not looking forward to this weekend.  I have the kids Saturday because stbx has "plans" for the afternoon and evening.  Was also just informed that she "may or may not" make it home Saturday night... .  translated to: "I have a date".
Awesome, I cannot wait to be replaced.

DaddyBear,
I know it may not feel like it when your heart is rebelling against what people are saying to you, but I know there are a lot of people here that really care about you and are speaking from that place of care and concern.  I spent the last two weeks trying to remind myself of just that, since I've been dealing with similar feelings/thoughts about a new relationship that those who love me are raising red flags about.

I think the red flags have been pretty well covered by other posters so I want to share a little about the benefit of waiting -

Depending on when you start the clock, I'm about 16 months ahead of you on this journey.  While the actual divorce process only started 3 months ago, I've been living "on my own" for 16 months and have 11 months of legal process (legal separation) behind me.  I am anticipating the judge's sign off on my divorce petition any day now (husband consented and all the custody and financial agreements were done in the legal separation process).  I have every reason to believe that I will be "single" some time next week.

These have been incredibly painful months, but I know that pain has been necessary.  I know I still have more grieving and healing to do, but right now I also need to be cautious to not bring "unnecessary suffering" upon myself because I am starting to feel "healed enough" to be very vulnerable to moving too far too fast.

So from a few miles down the road you're travelling, I can see some milestones that you have yet to pass that could make a huge difference in the health of any future relationship.  Here are a few things I have under my belt that you don't (yet) that I think are pretty important:

1.  I know when I will be free to remarry
2.  I know what my custody arrangement looks like, which means I know what time I have available for giving to another person.
3.  I am much less impacted (emotionally, physically, financially) by what my stbxhusband does.  That means I have a much better handle on what I have to offer another person in all those areas.
4.  I have shown my sons that I will be there for them, whether they like it or not (this is a direct quote from the mother's day card I got from my younger son).  There is no confusion or fear that I will be distracted and unavailable when they need me because I've "moved on" from my relationship with their dad (and them) with someone else. 
5.  I am getting to the point of being able to see more honestly what my role was in the dysfunction and breakdown of my marriage. 
6.  I don't feel the driving need to tell people why my marriage failed or about the latest horrible thing my stbxh did.  Date conversations will be much better.  :)
7.  I know I can survive those horrible spells of loneliness that have hit.  I don't need someone to take that loneliness away (though I would have begged for it at the time) for me to survive and prosper. 
8.  I know who my friends are.  I know who has stuck by me through the thick of all of this and will be there for me as I venture into any new relationships.  I know they will tell me the truth and that I will be wise to hear it.

There are a lot more things that I may summarize, but for now I just want to say that I'm here for you no matter what you decide.  I hope you decide to put the brakes on and test the strength of this connection by committing to wait until some of these milestones have passed for both of you, but if you decide to move forward with the relationship we're still here for the good and bad just as you have been there for us.
BeagleGirl

Might be helpful for you to summarize what people are saying, and perhaps repeat it back here.  :thought:

My two cents.  :)

FWIW, people here cautioned me about dating my current SO.

When we met, I was 2 years out of my marriage and mid point with custody battles, which lasted a total of 4 years.

SO was fresh out of his marriage, also to someone with BPD.

We've been together 6 years, moved in together 2 years ago, and are getting married this summer.

I took the advice here to heart.

Do you think you're able to hit the pause button on this relationship? Or end it, if it was the best thing for you (longterm)?

Hi DB,

You've had great responses to this thread, and I just wanted to add one thing I picked up in your earlier posts.  These may not be your exact words, but I distinctly remember your stating that you were afraid of being alone.  I'd urge you to think about how much that affects your current feelings on the options before you right now. 

I'm a die hard romantic at heart who is easily caught up by 'when lightning strikes' moments and also believe that everything happens for a reason.  The reason I think you've reunited with this woman is to test your willingness to go through the process of getting better.  It's my guess that your wife made you feel pretty special when you first met too and this may just be a chance to not repeat history, and instead take the time you need to properly grieve and go through the difficult feelings that are so uncomfortable that it's attractive to bypass them. 

Know yourself DB and know that what is good for you is not always what seems most attractive or feels the best in the short term.  You need to be your number one priority at present, alongside your daughter.  If this is a connection that will stand the test of time, then there is no rush.  A prospective partner who is healthy themselves will respect your wishes and encourage you to do the self work and create a secure arrangement for your child before considering getting involved with someone new.  My advice to you would be to find out how that is received and I believe that will tell you all you need to know.

Whatever you decide to do, we will all be rooting for a positive outcome for you and be here in your corner the whole time.

Love and light x 

I think I may, literally, print this post out and carry it with me for the next few years. It's that amazingly good. Thank you.

My emotions lately have been COMPLETELY whacky. It's like nothing else I've experienced. I think it was Skip who said to me at one point that the experience during divorce can mimic BPD - I totally get that now!

The bottom line is that I am going to slow this relationship way down - it's not going to be hard to do that - naturally we're going to need to both find our footing over and over again, which will pause things at various points anyway. But I'm also going to take some deliberate action, too. I just haven't figured that part out yet. Also, we still live quite a distance away from each other, and her ability to move quickly and suddenly is very limited. She needs to come down the road quite a bit in her own situation, and she needs to do it without me rescuing her. That's an urge I fight a lot. So there are some learning experiences in this relationship to be had, too, I think.

I do want to clear one thing up, though. It wasn't a 10 hour conversation where we co-ruminated. It was a little bit of comparing notes, but mostly it was talking about old times, I actually did quite a bit of bpdfamily-like discussion with her about NPD / BPD - she didn't really understand what was even going on with her husband. So that's another red flag in and of itself. I get it. I get it. I get it.

So again, everyone, sincerely, thank you. I'm going to go back and re-read this thread a few times now

Give yourselves time to recover.  As they say, recovery is a process, not an event.  One measure of recovery I've suggested to others in the past (after first reading it here) is whether you can have dates or time together where the ex-spouse(s) and the problems they keep causing aren't the topic of conversation.  Frankly, I recall my early days, okay years, where I was often focused on lamenting about my ex and her endless antics and obstructions.

You're not alone, a few others here have reconnected with past friends and made it work, with a lot of work.  I did reconnect with someone I knew from my 20s, she had never married.  With the passage of over 3 decades, neither of us today is the person we were back then.  While nothing progressed relationshipwise (yes more about my issues) we are friends and I would venture to say I talk more frankly and more in depth than any other friend I have.

Not to harp too much,  but see what you said here:


Is it? Or friendship? Budding friendship?

Interesting distinction.  I would have never described what I was doing back then as a "relationship".  It was a testing of some water... .was there potential for a relationship? Turns out there wasn't and I was okay with that.

Panda39

The Legal Deposition

(http://www.diamondreporting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/SwearIn-272x300.jpg)
DB, what sexual partners have you had since you were married.
What is their name, address and phone number.
How long have you known this person.
When did the relationship begin.
When and where did you have sex... .

Discovery: DaddyBear, 30 days ago you were surprised with a divorce petition and you wife has already signaled that she wants primary custody and she is going to throw everything she can at you to get it.

A romantic relationship this early in the game can't be concealed.  It will be asked in the discovery and the deposition. They can discover phone records, emails, texts, etc.  They can deposition her to compare details. Many will suspect that this has been going on - who get involved this quickly - and you have known her - and you will be on the defensive demonstrating not.

Jealousy:  When you disclose it, it has a very high likelihood of triggering jealousy and reprisal from you wife. She can become more combative, she can drag it through the court case, and she can bait you with it... .shame you.

Children's reaction:  she can tell your already traumatized children... .and they may very well want to protect mommy from "daddy's replacement mommy".

Your crazy emotions: You said, my emotions lately have been COMPLETELY whacky. How will you handle the above.

Not your "A" game You have a tough case and re-establishing a stable relationship with your children will require focus... .failing in love with someone is a huge emotional distraction... .

You may want to explore considerations as you sort through this... .

I've got $.02 in a different direction for you here:

You've had some advice that you probably aren't ready for a long term relationship right now, and neither is this woman you found. (Flourdust described a lot of good reasons)

That said, a short term transitional relationship can be a very good thing. Fun while you do it. Runs its course. You end things fairly amicably when they run their course. And are better off than you were before. (Among other things, you must be totally starved for affection, and overwhelmed by the least bit of love... .even if it isn't something crazy like love-bombing at the beginning of an unhealthy r/s!)

I'd suggest you discuss that possibility and be up front about it with her.

In other words, she has a good chance to be Ms. Right Now, even if she has a very small chance to be Ms. Right   

Taking it slow should mean not introducing her to your daughter for say, six months, perhaps not until you have the divorce and custody arrangement settled. Same with not meeting her kids.

(And talk to your legal team about what you want to avoid doing so you don't have to talk about it in a deposition, like Skip suggested... .)

Usually when (or if) there is a deposition your lawyer will be present.  Always pause for a moment before answering in case your lawyer objects saying it isn't within the scope or is fishing or whatever.  The lawyers can ask whatever they want, doesn't mean you have to answer everything they ask.

Hi DB,

It’s been awhile! Warm greetings!  

If I can pipe in a word of caution. When I met my current SO I thought he was done with his ex. He’d filed in their country of origin many months before where she and his kids were. Long story short, their legal battles weren’t over by a long shot. Two years in and they ramped up to insane levels. Eight years later and they are still dealing with issues in court. I’d say the first five years of our relationship were filled with battles with his ex and me being quite alone and neglected. I don’t know how many meals, days, trips to the lake, anywhere, everywhere, etc. were less than they could have been because of he and his ex battling things out via phone and text. I don’t know how I found the patience…well, I lost it big time eventually…

If I had it do this over again I would not prefer to get involved with a freshly divorced person with underage kids. My SO loved me, he meant well, but he was not emotionally available and it really damaged us both very deeply.

I think it can take years after a divorce to be ready to date. Sure parts of you may be ready, but other parts…not ready. It’s just a lot to go through a legal battle and sounds like you are in for a high conflict one. You’ll be cranky, dispirited, unhappy, low, distracted, miserable and the other person isn’t getting the best of you. They end up as a support system, which I get that one needs and wants, but getting started too early can take away some of the best of those giddy early times that make romances worth doing. With a well balanced person with some strong life/communication skills it’d probably be easier, but still…it is something to be really careful about! Timing matters! And sometimes as much as we want it to be different it is just not the right time!

Okay, just my overly formulated opinion! I want you to be carefree, and happy now! No waiting! Do what ya gotta do, just please keep your eyes open! None of us want more heartache for you!

big hugs, pearl.    

---

When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323828.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329171.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329172.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329173.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329174.0)
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329175.0)

I would proceed with caution. Finish what needs to be ended, If she's the one, she'll still be there.

Lots of really good advice here, so I don't have much to add. I just met this divorced guy who has been divorced for many years and can't stop talking about his divorce as if it were recent. My heart breaks to see someone so unwilling to look at their part in a very unhappy marriage, so much lost time and heartbreak that has gone on so much longer than necessary.

Hey everyone,

First of all, as someone said, if it's meant to be, it will be there when I'm ready.

I've decided to refocus my energy toward my relationship with my daughter and my divorce case. I won't lose sight of these again. Also, I will be attending CoDA and other support meetings in my area. I will focus my energy on things that can assist me in healing before I focus on new romantic relationships.

I will say that it is extremely helpful, and healing in it's own way, to be pursued and to pursue someone with whom there's a mutual attraction. Grey Kitty was correct, I think, in that there can be value to this kind of relationship. But I can see how my exuberance and "over the top" attitude about this is likely very out of line with reality. I've got lots of healing to do, that's for sure.

Thanks folks - I really appreciated your candor in this thread.

Hey everyone,

I've left this thread sit here for a while, and honestly it's because nothing significant has happened yet.

Our first hearing for temporary orders is set for June 15th. I doubt it will go anywhere except that the judge will order evaluations. Right? I think that's what happens next.

My attorney and I haven't connected much this week as I've been out of town. We have a long consult scheduled on Friday and I should have more info then.

Meanwhile, my wife is still refusing to share parenting on a 50/50 basis - she's trying to force the ":)isney Dad" plan that Skip described. I have proposed several alternatives and have had very little luck. I'm not proposing alternatives just to get "hours" though. I want to create a stable home environment for  my daughter now and in the future. This will be an big topic on Friday to see what I can do to fix this sooner rather than later.

That's the update for now. More on Friday.

I found the codependency groups to be very helpful. It was a scary step to go. I always associated these groups with alcohol addiction and that isn't a concern in my case, so I wondered if they would "fit" me. I also found myself in a room with people with substance addictions and wondered how could this help me?

I then realized that co-dependency fits the addiction model. An addiction is "using" something to escape painful feelings or shift the focus off our own feelings. The "something" can change but basically co-dependency is using "people". Not in a cruel way like taking advantage of them but by emotionally caretaking- focusing mainly on their needs- we take the focus off our own pain and issues.

It's interesting that we see that a pwBPD doesn't have a good way to manage their own feelings. Well neither do co-dependents. Numbing out and focusing on someone else's feelings isn't coping with our own. But be aware that once a person gets sober with their addictions, they are then left with the feelings they were using the addiction to escape.

This is where some good learning takes place. It may not be comfortable to feel the feeling- fear, loneliness, but feelings are normal and learning to manage them is a great gift. The groups are good, but one part not to skip is working with a sponsor. That felt like emotional boot camp for me, but I am grateful for it. When feelings get tough, the sponsor and other group members are a phone call away but they know not to enable you, but to guide you.

Some people don't relate to some of the religion context in the 12 steps but the basics are universal. We have people of all different belief systems in the group, including atheists. One idea of the higher power is to help let go of controlling other people and to help deal with than uncertainty. You can individualize that concept to what works for you.

Ah... .well, no.

The temporary orders (pendent lite orders, in your state) set budgets for what each of you can spend, where the paycheck goes, cancellation of credits cards, limits on taking on debt, major purchases, rent, child visitation hours (which will be in place until the divorce is final), schools, etc.

These are the controls you argue to be put in place to keep the other party from making a financial mess or control the children or forcing situations (like putting the child in another school  district).

This is a really important hearing.

There is little value to proposing visitation schedules to her... .you want to make the case for a constructive schedule to the judge... .he will most likely be inclined to keep things as they are unless you make a good argument otherwise.

You need to read up and engage us here, DB77!

Hey DB77,

Been a long time for me being here, one thing I learnt (Austrlaian Court not US courts... .) is that they are essentially a process.  It isnt a fair or a just process its just a process that gets followed because the person in charge of it the Judge for the most part dots his "i's" and crosses his "t's"... .  The court follows the formula they have for resolving the situation.  If at present you have sweet nothing in terms of time with your daughter, don't expect that to instantly change on the first hearing.  US Courts may be different to Australian courts however I got told by my L originally to have short term Court Goals and long term End of Court Goals. 

My Short term court goals were always three things every single time. 
* Rebut/Correct issues she raised with documentation that related to our son, ignore everything else directed at me personally just ask for proof. 
* Raise my own issues and back them up with documentation. 
* Move closer to the final goal.  Get parts of the puzzle recognised in court orders to be retained at the next hearing leading up to the final hearing. 

Custody for me went like this in terms of Court appearances. 
First time at Court I got an extra 3 hours a week.  I went from having my son for 8 gours (3 times a week) a week to having him for 11 hours (3 times a week) a week. 
Second time at Court my son got an overnight every second weekend with me (Just turning 3 years old at the time).  She got ripped to shreds as well on this occasion for blockign it and not rocking up to court calling in sick. 
Third time I walked out with two full days (16 hours during the week) and every Saturday from 9am-15:30, every second Saturday I had my son overnight. 
Last time in court it stayed much the same but I had a schedule that changed gradually for the next 4 years increasing gradually giving me more and more time leading to the current where I have a 4-6-2-2.  I get the bold underlined days. 

It didn't happen instantly but initially there were no major changes made.  Short term my L had the goal of getting me one longer time period with my son and we got it.  I felt cheated and like it was a big waste of time and money.  That initial Court appearance however set up many things that we got later on.  Have a long term goal and recognise that this is like managing a project at work, make sure you set yourself up to get more and more later on and raise the issues that are important when this project is finished. 

This isn't ideal in many respects, however I get my son for 6 days out of the fortnight, nearly 50/50 and she agreed to it focusing on the "his only getting him every second weekend" aspect of it ignoring the fact that 2 months after court ended the schedule changed dramatically as it was his birthday.  I now have an absolutely awesome period of 6 days to work my backside off to make sure that I am free for all the other days or can finish work early and he has me in a really good healthy place being as attentive as I can be on those days. 

Finally, I know this isn't a project, its your children/children's future and also will dictate a large part of your future, this is hugely important.  The more emotionally detached you can be from it however the healthier the decisions are that you will make and the less it will drain you in the present.  Don't underestimate how much of your energy this can drain particularly if you try to understand or comprehend how someone can lie so blatantly and easily about you on a bit of paperwork.  Trying to understand or comprehend this was the most unhealthy thing I did in the court process, the more you focus on yourself, your kids and your future the better you will be now and the better the outcome will be towards the end of the court process. 

That was my experience from it, in hindsight.  Yet if someone had told me at the time to relax, make small goals that lead to the big goals and treat it like managing a project... .I would have strangled them if they were infront of me :P


AJJ

This is so very frustrating.  If you are proposing thoughtful, plausible, workable solutions and they are being communicated through attorney's they are being looked at.  Your wife is being counselled on your offers and how they could possibly play out in court.  They are playing a tight hand hoping you cave.  Also depending on your wife's relationship with her attorney she may be bullying them a little.  I found during my 4-way meeting that stbxw attorney was blindsided by a few things... .

She'll try to beat you up.  Stay calm, get to court.  Your lawyer can point out to the judge your efforts to come up with solutions.  Remember the courts are busy and focused on solutions more than the he said- she said garbage.  Fortunately for me its just been about money issues, she agreed upfront to a 50/50 parent plan.  I caved on some $$ to just get this moving and stop waiting on the court's time frames.

One thing that my L was great with was helping me whittle down to what really mattered.  There are a ton of things to decide on and you need to figure out which things to let go, and which things to fight for.  It seems from what you've written here that a workable parenting plan is most important and that financials less so.  Focus your energy there.  The money generally follows the parenting plan.

Don't forget about DB as well.  Use this non 50/50 time and go do some things you've wanted to do.

Good luck
-Oz

Everything that Skip said  :)

I can't remember if people have said this already, but heads up that temporary orders have a way of becoming permanent. At the very least, if you get a temp order and want to change it, you're in a one down position. It's harder to change temporary orders than it is to stay with them (status quo). It's not the end of the world if you get an unfavorable temp order, but if you can get a favorable temp order now, you're in a better position for later on.

Have you asked your attorney if the status quo parenting time you have set up now matters? You two can't decide on what is fair, so while it's likely that an evaluation could be ordered, the judge will still need to rule on temporary custody while you wait on the evaluation.

Don't be surprised if your current schedule for work dictates what the temp plan looks like. Can you clear the deck at work and make sure you are available to do 50/50 right away, if you haven't already?



She's probably proposing what her L suggests is reasonable and acceptable in your county, most likely. Traditionally, men have accepted that schedule, or whomever is the breadwinner for the family. Her L is counseling her, and she's going with it. This isn't BPD stuff, this is regular court stuff. It's normal in even low-conflict divorces for people to feel like they should dig in their heels during this phase.

You don't like the schedule she's proposing, and she doesn't like what you're proposing -- pretty reasonable for where you are both at. So you two go to the next step, which is either mediation or court, however it works where you live. Things will move fast if you end up in court over this, so your best move may be to clear any possible work restrictions that impede your ability to start with the schedule you can do right now, so that it sets you up for how it will go in the foreseeable future.

One thing to ask your L is whether there is a bias in your county toward minimal exchanges. Some families can handle complicated back and forth schedules, but for the most part, courts seem to believe that it's better for kids to have fewer exchanges -- something that is also age dependent.

Do you have a list of questions for your L on Friday? It might help you to organize any questions you have.

What Aussie JJ says about the long term is very true. Even tho temp orders have a tendency to become permanent, there are always opportunities to modify the order.

You will be entering a period in which the judge is considered the "supreme witness" of a case, so what happens in terms of modifications starts to become the real evidence, if that makes sense.

Courts don't like having repeat customers. So it will start to look for ways to keep you two out of court. If it's clear that one party is the trouble maker interfering with what is best for the child, then the rulings will start to incrementally turn in favor of the cool-headed problem-solver  *)

I agree with Skip's observation that you need to plug in and step up your game prior to the court date.  Share with us the list of questions you have for your lawyer meeting.  Go into that meeting looking for him to articulate a strategy for a good outcome for the temporary orders.  He should be taking this next court date very seriously.  My guess is that he is, but is cool and professional about it.  He does this all the time.  Your level of concern should be higher than his.  If you assume he'll take care of everything without you leaning in, you're not going to get the best result.

To integrate what others have said, since temporary orders tend to become permanent, yet you also need to be a reasonable problem solver, you must bring all of your tools and talents to bear to get the best interim parenting arrangement at the next court date, while also being balanced and constructive.

The status quo has a huge amount of momentum.

Are you keeping a detailed log of your parenting time since your wife filed?  What does the split look like?

Do you have a log, or can you recreate a detailed picture, of your parenting time before she filed?  Reach back long enough that your reporting is not thrown off by a short period of increased travel for your new job.

Looking at the parenting split before and after she filed, you are going to want to be able to tell a story in 1-2 pages that supports you as a 50/50 parent going forward.  OK to have attachments, but don't assume they'll get read.

WW

Lots of excellent responses here.  Key message is that you can't sit back and let others get their way.

My story, sadly quite lengthy, is that when I appeared for the first divorce hearing to get the temp order the judge ignored everything that had occurred up to that point.  He asked one question, "What are your work schedules?"  I replied I worked a standard 5 day week.  She replied she worked from home.  I should have jumped up and said I currently had possession of the family home but during the very brief hearing my lawyer said, "Quiet.  I'll handle it.  We'll fix any issues later."  Well, it turned out to be a 22 month temp order, not one word of it was changed before the final decree.  Soon the parenting investigation by the court's social worker recommended I move up from alternate weekends to equal time.  Court did nothing except to move on to the next step.  Then the custody evaluator submitted his initial report to the main judge that recommended mother immediately lose her temp custody.  Court did nothing except to move on to the next step.

Do I regret that I listened to my lawyer's advice to lay low.  Yes, to an extent.  However, I recently spoke with him and he said he wan't aggressive in court during the divorce because she was making so many allegations against me with multiple entities... .children's hospital ER visits, regional child abuse center, CPS, seeking Amber Alert, etc.

I agree with the others that you rally should try your best to get the best initial temp order possible for several reasons.  Your 'temp' order will likely be in effect for the length of your divorce, for us it is usually 1 to 2 years, sometimes even longer.  Court may not want to change the temp order during the divorce, since it is just "temporary".  If it is like what my lawyer estimated, it is figuring on only 7-9 months in all.  Our cases are usually double or triple that!

Also, once an order is in effect, court will be reluctant to make major changes.  Figure on incremental improvements every year or two or three.  That's why starting with a "less bad" starting/temp order is so crucial.

However, understand that court will be inclined to start with a "standard" approach.  Standard often means put mother in charge of parenting and father in charge of paying.  The hearing will be brief, maybe only a half hour.  You won't be able to go into great detail.  Be prepared to produce a list of all the times you've asked for parenting time and how often she refused.  Make clear how involved you were with parenting before you two separated.  She will claim you're not an involved father, you will have to counter that she's been blocking your previous involved parenting.  Ask the judge to ignore her increased time since separation since she's be obstructing much of your historical father-child time.

Do not make child support payments an issue, some dads sabotage themselves when it appears they want more parenting time in order to avoid paying a little more in child support.

So I realized that what I wrote here might be misleading. I have no intention to lie, but I admit I wasn't entirely open with my feelings and emotions in my last post. With good reason, I think. I felt very ashamed, embarrassed, and judged. I allowed myself to be very vulnerable to you, my bpdfamily, when I admitted I was feeling so strongly for this wonderful girl who happened back into my life.

Please, understand my feelings are valid - both for this girl, AND in regard to the shame, embarrassment, and judgement I felt when I revealed what I did.

My first reaction was to fully retreat and withdraw from this thread.

My second reaction was to share only the parts of me that felt safe to share - for example, my intention to find group support, and my intention to stay focused on my divorce and my daughter primarily.

Now I've allowed room for a third reaction - standing up and leading by example. I'll own my feelings and emotions, let them be what they are, and try hard to see through any messages that might hurt or embarrass me.

So, let me be absolutely clear: At this time, I have no intention to stop talking to this girl.

I intend to follow a careful path, and I intend to stay in Wisemind (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind). As I mentioned, I also intend to get additional support beyond what is available here on this board - good advice in any stage of a relationship.

For the next little while, I don't intend to share a lot of detail about this girl here, but I will certainly share my story and how things are generally progressing.

I will also continue to share all of my struggles with custody, financial hardships, interactions with my STBXw, and anything related to the divorce process. THESE are the things I feel need primary focus - I mean that! And these are all the issues that you have all helped me with so much.

So I hope this addition to my thread helps clarify exactly where I am.

And if you've read this far, I hope this encourages you to be open and vulnerable in your own threads. We're all family here, so lets stick together.

~DaddyBear77

Thanks ForeverDad (and others) - this is a perfect summary of some key points.

As I said, tomorrow (Friday) I have an extensive meeting with my attorney planned.

My ideal outcome is:
1. Equal residential custody, with no PPR (Parent of Primary Residency)
2. 50/50 distribution of marital debt and assets
3. Reasonable alimony and child support payments, with an appropriate imputed income to my STBX

How to achieve this outcome will be the primary topic of conversation. I have a list of the elements needed to achieve the above, as well as a plan on what Minimum position I'm willing to accept. On the off off chance that my STBX or anyone else found this post, I am going to hold off on sharing those elements until I've had time to execute them and she's aware of our strategy.

Again, tomorrow is when we finalize our strategy - I will let you know how things go.

Hi Daddybear,

No judgement here, friend  :)

I am in a longterm relationship with someone who was still in the separation phase of his divorce (in my state, you have to be separated a year before you can divorce).

I was out 2 years but my custody battle had just peaked (ex had a psychotic episode that disturbed everyone involved).

Friends here gave me the same advice you received.

I understand how you feel judged. Something good finally happens, your world is upside down and falling apart, and people tell you to doubt yourself.

I get it.

Flash forward to today.

My SO and I are getting married this summer and I feel unbelievably lucky to have met him. Our dogs introduced us  :) while we were out walking in adjacent neighborhoods. Everything you wrote about your friend, I could have written about SO.

I took the advice to heart without ending the relationship. I think you can walk this path and come out ok.

It does take work.

And I do think you have to be extraordinarily careful to not alert your wife that you are dating. My ex did not discover I was dating until about a year in. He tried to destroy SO's reputation, sent emails to SO's boss, did drive by's, started stalking my home, all the usual high conflict stuff. The worst is that it impacted my son. The parental alienation spiked, and my son, rightly or wrongly, blamed SO for being the new element in such a fragile broken family dynamic. This would have happened no matter when I started dating, but it was better that I was 3 years out of the marriage and had learned more skills to support my son.

This doesn't mean you can't date. It means you have to recognize how important discretion is right now.

The other thing that helped my relationship with SO, and something I believe you may be able to do with yours, is to limit how much time you discuss your divorce/custody. Give yourself 5-10 minutes tops, enough time to report out. I told SO that I had a team of advisors and that I was handling things, but wanted him to know x and y were happening so he understood why I could only see him for 4 hours on Sat and 4 hours on Sun. Or, if I was feeling more anxious than normal, I wanted him to know that it was because of x, and that I was seeing my therapist on Tues so I had that covered. Don't turn your friend into a therapist! It will end badly   It also fans the codependent stuff.

When we are in a dysfunctional relationship, we triangulate. This is the drama triangle -- it's vicious and toxic and can feel like the only way to relate to people after you've been in it for a while. It's very easy to continue triangulating when you meet someone new, especially when you have an adversary like your wife, who is high conflict. It becomes you and this wonderful person against your ex, against your friend's ex. It can feel heady to have an ally after all this time duking it out alone in your difficult marriage. I don't think this is the same as trauma bonding, but it's in the ball park.

When the drama goes away, your triangle starts to weaken and the new relationship will wobble with it.

I could not have made it through the early parts of my relationship with SO without a therapist. I had some PTSD-type reactions to things, and she helped me pinpoint where they were coming from, and how to handle things with SO.

Just wanted you to know I admire you for sharing how you feel, and being brave to tell us how you're feeling :)

I have just finished reading "Attached". It is the best book I ever read on how to recover from bad relationships, how to improve a relationship, and how to have a happy relationship in the future. It specifically explains why we feel so badly when a relationship ends and why we try to go back to our partner and/or avoid doing what we have to do to heal before getting into another relationship.

I am sorry you felt judged DB. I think it is very courageous to come forward and say what you did. That is I think I huge step to take in speaking your truth instead of hiding it out of concern of what others may think.

I understand how you feel. I felt judged and targeted both by a T and the people in the 12 step groups I attended. I hoped to feel supported but darn, whatever I said got poked at and they turned the mirror on me. I was angry and uncomfortable but eventually I understood that their comments caused me to grow emotionally and I am grateful for it. I think we need some of both, the kind of support that feels good when we are emotionally hurting but also the kind that pushes us forward. I think we are all on a self improvement path but there isn't a destination where we say we have arrived- I think we are all just in a supportive/sharing role on this endeavor.

I think you have had mixed responses- some say it is a good thing to have this romance, others are speaking of the potential pittfalls but nobody but you knows all the details or this person, or you. This is your journey DB and I think the people here on this board are here for support along the way but the choices are yours.

It isn't our place to judge you. You don't have to hide who you are for concern of being judged and if someone does judge you, you can take this info as useful or dismiss it. However, sometimes people say things that bother us and it is because perhaps they are seeing something we don't want to see and when we examine why it bothers us, it can help us to make positive changes. I think the message to be who we are is a big theme in relationships and your post reflects that. That's a step to be proud of.

You certainly don't need to obey anyone here or to censor yourself to please us. (That's something I've learned to be aware of -- my co-dependent tendencies making me want to be a  pleaser to my audience.) It's good to have that self-awareness and reflection as you go forward.

Not long into my own divorce, a friend introduced me to a woman who wanted an informational interview about my education & career path. She was gorgeous and flirted with me quite a bit. For a few days after that, I was consumed with thinking about asking her out ... .mostly wondering if she expected me to ask her out, if she'd be disappointed if I didn't. Then I took a step back and noticed that my thoughts were not about what I wanted but about meeting her desires. Co-dependent thinking again. I didn't take any action, but I'm glad I had the experience to see how my habits could get myself back into a bad relationship.

DB I admire your openness and honesty in sharing your feelings.  It's a strength to recognise how you feel and the ways it affects you.  Keep doing this!  Hearing things that make us uncomfortable can understandably cause us to retreat.  I think most of us have felt that way at some point in our lives.  Just know that there's no judgement here.  We want you to be happy and well.  Whatever you choose to do as you follow your path, we'll be in your corner.

Love and light x 

I have a friend that went through a divorce. He felt guilty about it. His ex was not BPD. He offered her much more than the courts would have given. He did it because of the guilt. I suggested he follow what the court would do. He could always give his ex more if he wanted afterwards. Two years post divorce he got into financial difficulty because of his offer. Ex would not renegotiate. It took him another three years to get his finances in order and he almost lost his business.

DB77.

I reread most of the input from our neighbors in this community all of which provide valuable insight. We all have that shared experience, right?  Sorry bro, but I’m gonna wander off the reservation a bit.

I can only offer my experience coming out of a thirty-year relationship full of doubt, self-loathing, regret, and fear. I met someone quite by accident (and at the wrong time) and became good friends. I kept myself at a distance while caring friends encouraged me to be careful, take care of myself, date regularly, and take time to rebuild my life. She and I knew each other for nine months before I realized; so what if we fail? My life was reasonably secure and what more did I really have to lose? I purchased a ticket, traveled great distance, and met someone that I loved as a friend first under a large clock in a train station in London. It was a five day date. I prepared myself for disappointment and a quick return home. But, we both knew better. Since then it’s been 2-1/2 years, 6+ months of face time together, a thousand hours on phone and Skype, and a lot of airfares back and forth working through immigration issues. Truth is, I loved her before we ever met. It could end tomorrow, but I’ll never regret the risks we both took. Such is life. I’m thankful that I didn’t run after believing for so long that I was damaged goods. I learned that despite traveling to hell and back; I’m really alright. So are you.

Maybe we’re better people for enduring for so many years. Life and love is a risk no matter who we give our trust to and regardless of petty issues and the inevitable “elephant in the room” we desperately want to avoid. Those of us that have been to the brink of despair often tell ourselves that we can’t trust our intuition while coming out of that self-imposed exile... Its a valid concern. But, we might also need to avoid labelling ourselves as tragic co-dependents that set ourselves up for future heartbreak. Of course I was! So what? Evolve. Life and love might just pass us by while we wait out the obligatory mourning and self reflection period. After all, we did allow ourselves to be drawn into the near madness of another.

Make a bad choice? You’ll survive it. You seem to have a thoughtful mind and healthy perspective BD.  You know well what’s at stake and what the cost might be for following your heart. But you’ve already proved to yourself that you can survive the crazy train to self-immolation Going forward everything else should be a walk in the park. You know well the signs and where the exit door is. Never repeat the mistakes of the past. But should you do so, shake off the dust and try again.

You got to do what you got to.

This week is going to be critical. I'm just echoing back what others have said, mostly to make sure I understand and process the implications.

To recap, my wife filled a complaint for divorce a little over 45 days ago. About 30 days later, my wife filed a motion requesting temporary support payments that were at least twice what the statue would call for, advanced payment of her legal fees, and primary custody for her with visitation every other weekend.

I had switched attorneys around the time the motion was filed, so I didn't actually get a chance yet to respond to the complaint. So as of today, I have not made any filings with the court.

I think this is a good position to be in.

We now know her hand, and we know what her complaints will be. There's everything in here from false allegations of abuse and neglect, both to her and to my daughter. There are allegations of inappropriate use of prescription drugs, financial abuse and manipulation, hiding money, and reckless driving.

I spoke with my attorney Friday and have another discussion Tuesday. I've got pages and pages of evidence to include as exhibits - I have e-mails and text messages, I have bank statements, I have journal entries, photographs. She has no evidence and only her unsubstantiated claims. My attorney is giving me assurances that this is going to all be in my favor. I wish I had a better idea of exactly it will all go.

But I started out saying this is a big week, right? Because I think that on the basis of these filings, the judge will start to consider which side to lean toward, and after the hearing, these temporary orders might stick around for the long term, correct? So I'm focusing as much energy as I can in getting this filing perfect with all the evidence and timelines and dates I can come up with.

Does this sound like a good strategy? IS this one of those moments in the case that are critical? I think it is, I'm just double checking.

I'm really happy that I just put my true, authentic self out there. I did so with the knowledge that the best of what we have to offer here at bpdfamily would come shining through. And it really did. So thank you. I really, truly appreciate all of you.

I am continuing to spend time with my friend periodically. We always do so with complete discretion, and never spend more than a couple of hours together. I'm always checking myself and making sure that I consider my most important goals and values first and foremost. Being loved and appreciated is a nice feeling, but making sure I take care of my divorce and my daughter, as well as myself, are all higher priorities for me.

This week is going to be a critical week for me. I've written more about it here on this thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324838.msg12970243#msg12970243).

Thanks again for everyone's response and support. I heard everything you said even if I didn't like it, I promise.

Hopefully your attorney filled an answer to the complaint within the 35 day deadline.


You don't really know her hand... .this is just the opening gambit. During the discovery, they will work to find evidence of anything they can use against you... .and they can easily drop or add things from the original complaint.

But, this is not what temporary hearings are about. At temporary hearings your wife is going to ask for things (as are you) and the judge (who may not even be the divorce judge) will decide. She may ask for sole use of the house and payment of all her attorney fees, or a car or apartment, of closing of all credit cards... .

Has your attorney asked you to fill out an inventory or to list your anticipated expenses for the duration of the law suit?

I don't know precisely what your state considers Parent of Primary Responsibility.  Generally an important facet with PPR would be determining where your child attends school should either of you move during/after the divorce.  Likely she is already in or in a few months will be in elementary school.  (There are specific financial risks if your spouse wants expensive private tuition and you don't since court may order you to pay for what mother wants.)  Often one parent is designated the one to step forward.  If the court grants her majority time then she likely will be in charge of school-related matters.

I have a concern about many courts.  Their policies, procedures and rules often default toward favoring mothers.  It's not always "Who should be the parent in charge?" but rather "Why shouldn't mother default to being in charge?"  Not good but that can be the historical scenario.  So if you ask for merely a 'fair' 50% and mother has asked for what is often perceived as 'standard' Dads Get Alternate Weekends, don't be surprised if judge isn't inclined to stray far from prior patterns.

My lawyer never said, "Judge, since separation the other spouse has obstructed and sabotaged my client's parenting at every turn.  We have documentation of her concerning behaviors and patterns, probably too much detail for this brief hearing.  Please read what we have already filed.  We are concerned that this divorce will be drawn out for well over a year, possibly even two years, and a quick 'typical' or 'temporary' order will not be in the child's best interests over that long a span of time.  If father is not designated to have majority time then at least let him have equal time to reduce risk of obstruction and manipulation."  Result?  My lawyer said "we'll fix it later", magistrate ordered 'typical' dad alternate weekends, my then-stbEx delayed as much as she could to prolong her very favorable temp order and the temp order remained unchanged for nearly 22 months.

I sure hope we didn't imply we were critical or unfeeling.  We've been burned in a variety of ways and overall sharing what we saw as risks and cautions.

Feeling lost, lonely and exposed is sadly all too typical in our situations.  I recall I reached out to a friend I knew from the decade before I met my spouse (late 70s to mid-80s).  As it turned out, nothing had happened back then because (1) she had not been interested in me  (though her mother was on my side, unknown to me back then) and (2) she figured marriage would equal a house full of kids and she wanted time for herself after her youth was spent on raising her younger siblings.  Anyway, after my divorce was final I still waited.  Eventually I did reach out to her (seeking what she thought of me back then in the bloom of youth) and we have been in contact off and on in recent years.  Guess what?  Too much of the conversation focused on my ex's continuing antics and whatnot!  A lasting relationship has to focus on the two persons, not others.  In time that did recede into the background but I learned a tough lesson.  You can't, I couldn't, develop a new relationship while still focused on the existing high conflict.  She even said she couldn't be in a relationship while a third person was still intruding.  Also, she'd never married, had no children and so she felt it was all a bit much.  Anyway, that's why I wrote it's usually best to ride out the worst of the divorce and blow-back so then you can later give proper attention to a new relationship.  Yeah, the timing is off, someone appeared so quickly, just view our thoughts as heads-up as well as best wishes.

I echo what Skip said -- you need to have filed a response as well as any motions for temporary things that YOU want (parenting plan, disposition of residence, proposed amount of temporary spousal support or child support, as a starting list). Otherwise, you are just playing defense.

The judge will have reviewed your response (which presumably includes any rebuttals of false claims made by your wife and your proposals for a parenting schedule and temporary financial arrangements). The judge will have reviewed some of your supporting evidence, if you included it -- looking for justifications for any disparities in parenting schedules, your incomes, and both of your proposed household budgets. The judge may or may not have looked at (or skimmed) tons of supporting documentation, if you sent them along by the deadline.

The judge is likely to ask some questions of both attorneys -- either in court with you present or just with the attorneys in chambers. The judge is trying to quickly determine -- how much money is available for support/maintenance (cutting through any discrepancies or exaggerations in your budgets), is there any good reason not to assign a standard temporary parenting schedule, and are there any other pressing issues in the motions that need to be resolved in temporary orders. The judge will finish by ordering the next steps, which may include evaluations or discovery for the next court date -- your written response and attorney can request specific steps, and that will be considered.

You may not get the judge's temporary orders for another month or two.

One last piece of hopefully unnecessary advice. If you haven't filed a counter-claim to her petition, your next step should be to ask the judge for a continuance -- postpone this initial hearing by 15-30 days to give you time to submit your counter-claim and key pieces of supporting evidence. Do NOT go into the courtroom not having filed anything with the expectation that the judge is going to listen to an oral counter-claim and sit there reading budgets and parenting schedules... .you will get screwed so hard.

You may want to take command of this... .not depend on your attorney to run your divorce... .but take the lead yourself. Even the best attorneys tend to do things at the last minute (because they have lots of other clients to work and because things change a lot at the last minute).  

You will do better if you dive deep into the process and drive the approach.

Its not a great analogy, but an attorney is a like a real-estate agent - they help you get the transaction done, but they don't pick the house, the lifestyle, or suffer the consequences of bad decisions.

What happened in your recent attorney conference?

That's roughly how I did it with SO and I think that slow slow pace is key.

No love bombing language or idealization, either. I set the pace and he never pushed.

It was a chance to test how well I set and kept boundaries. And to a lesser extent, how well he respected those boundaries.

Having language to point to codependent behaviors helped, too. After dating for a year, I might notice something that felt codependent-y and point it out. It was frankly strange to be with someone else recovering from codependence because I got to experience how it felt when someone solved a problem for me. It took away the pleasure of feeling competent and the satisfaction of working through something.

This is hard to balance with the simple pleasure of doing something for someone because you love them.

Knowing the terrain, together, has made our relationship healthier but it does take hard work to not slip into old patterns.

Kids will really flare up those patterns because your loyalties will divide pretty quick. When both of you are emotionally triggered at the same time, that's when things get real.

I'm not just going to say no! I don't feel like saying No even if I should, so I'm not sure I could even say it if I "had" to!

This seems to be the answer for most of us who are questioning how we got ourselves into our predicament with our pwBPD in the first place.

How did we get ourselves into these messes in the first place? By feeling something we had never felt with someone and just going where those feelings took us.

This is definitely NOT to say you are in phase 1 of a relationship with a pwBPD. It is to point out that the beginning of something like what you are experiencing is always so oceanic that there's no stopping it even if we wanted to, but we don't want to anyway.

It is only afterward that we scold ourselves for going with our gut with someone "clearly" BPD. "It was too good to be true." I say, "Bah!" to this line of thinking.

When I proposed to my ex I knew it was too soon, but I just had to go for it. In my mind it was a dream come true to be with this incredibly sexy woman who I admired when I was an early teenager and was getting along better with than I ever could have imagined. I took a gamble and lost. It happens. But I was able to have two of the best years of my life. I do not regret the decision. I am dismayed by the way it turned out.

I am glad you're letting yourself feel what you are feeling and acting on those feelings. I hope things work out wonderfully for you.

J

I agree with Flourdust, you need to have a counter-response.  However, my court really disappointed me, the magistrates never seemed to refer to the submissions.  I don't know how your court handles the submitted paperwork but I highly recommend you make clear reference to them during your hearing while "on the record" or try to have them accepted in the courtroom.  You'll need 3 copies at least, on for the court, one for the other side and one for you.  I noticed that my court tried to avoid too much data, my conclusion (valid or not) was that the court was able to have more flexibility in using "discretion" in order.  Discretion meant the judge could issues typical orders that would be less likely to vary from what other judges were issuing.

Skip advised taking charge of your case.  He's right, you hired him/her.  Also, for the lawyer, it's his/her job and at the end of the day he/she goes home for supper and family.  It's your life at stake, your children's lives at stake, you're the one who's stressed, distressed and, too often, left swinging in the wind.  All lawyers will hope for a settlement, the court prefers settlements too.  However, if your lawyer is placing all strategy eggs in the settlement basket, what if stbEx refuses to settle on reasonable terms?  Does your lawyer know you'll fight for your kids and not accept crumbs?  Can your lawyer do more than seek settlements, can your lawyer do well in trials and high conflict situations?

Yes, your lawyer should know the ins and outs around court, far better than you would.  And your lawyer can advise you how to avoid common misconceptions about court and predictable traps, pitfalls and blunders us Nice Guys and Nice Gals are prone to try.  The point is that you ensure your lawyer knows this isn't just another divorce, it will be a struggle to keep it on track and not diverted into 'unsubstantiated' allegations intended to sabotage you.  I recall my lawyer estimating my divorce should take 6 months without children and 7-9 months with children.  It was 23.5 months from filing to final decree.  He was good, though not too proactive. and yet it took him 3 times longer than he predicted.

Dear Sweet Mother of Pearl!

If I haven't found this one of the top helping posts I have ever read, I dont know what would it be.

I was just hoping around the failed relationship forum when on impulse I popped into this since my thought was, I am not reeling about it anymore, and in so little time. The reason, I met a FANTASTIC woman. As you, once feelings started to creep in all I could think was, this is not true, it has been too fast, she is love bombing you, she has had intense relationships, no one can be that loving unless they are BPD, I am falling for her because she is beautiful and is paying attention to me... .yada, yada.

Well, as another poster stated, distance is a situation for us, so within a month's time, we decided that we wanted to start making this exclusive, and that we wanted to get together soon. She asked for her vacation time, and we scheduled to go for a three week road trip adventure. Every day that goes by I am more attracted to her. She knows about my ex, and does everything possible to put my fears to rest. Due to going through the BPD hell, I can appreciate her way more than I would have had if that experience have not being part of my life. There is something to be said of the dark nights!

Thanks for the post and replies. I have been thinking that I was crazy and alone on doing this. Is nice to know that others are walking down that path. 

Sorry buddy! I hope I didn't add to your pain. I know what it is like to put up a post and then go "ouch!"

You totally have a right to your feelings! :)

I wish you nothing but love and happiness!     You deserve it so much!

~pearl.

Hi DaddyBear,
    I tried sending you a PM but it seems your inbox is full.
    Just checking in since it’s been a few days since you last posted. I know the waiting can be exhausting. You’re in my thoughts.
BeagleGirl