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Hi all. From reading here, I’ve come to understand that most of your parents are still alive and that you’re struggling through how to make the best of an ongoing situation.  

In reading the testimonies here, I consider myself blessed that my parents have passed on. Take that as you will.

I felt for my mother when cancer overtook her. I saw a very tired woman that put up with a childish narcissist until her dying day, but I still can’t forgive her for the abuse. She was the most hostile person I’ve ever known.

Reading here can become a struggle. It’s like, if I was face to face with some of you, I’d want to grab you by the shoulders and shake you and tell you to get away from them and to stay away. On the other hand, I know what love and devotion feels like. I understand and I empathize.

What I want to convey here is that once we’re abused, the relationship is over. From the Bettering to the Conflicted board to here. I just see abuse and it’s sad to see. I cry sometimes while reading some of this stuff. Oh, can’t leave out the Family board. There are individuals going through hell there.

Anyway, I’m realizing that there was never a chance of a real relationship between my parents and I. It’s easy to say that now since they’re dead, but it’s the truth. I commend you all that try to find ways to make relationships work with your parents and to the members that learn the tools and implement them to have a relationship with your parent/s.

Where I’m at now, if my parents were still alive, I’m not that guy.

I find peace in the fact that my parents are dead. They were awful people that did awful things.

I’m curious about how much other members are currently doing for their abusers and why you feel the obligation to continue to do so.

Hi JNChell.  I am grateful my parents are dead as well.  I never went no contact with them though.  My mom cut contact with me after I moved out (in my mid 30's) but after I did have limited contact.  

While I did feel love and obligation to my mother and obligation to my dad, that is not why I did not cut contact.  I stayed in contact so that I could learn to differentiate and function on my own.  No contact, in my opinion then and now, does nothing to heal you and I wanted to make sure I did as much healing as I could as fast as I could.  That meant learning to deal with them in the moment.

I think we all have different reasons.  Mine were pretty harsh but then again, I don't know of many who were still living with and tied to their parents when well into their 30's.  My situation and what I needed to do required, in my mind, that i still be in contact but with me setting the limits and calling the shots.  Learning to say no and no longer fearing things and feeling powerless like I did when I was a child

Do you mean for you it was over?  You get to make that choice for sure.  

11 years after my mother died and 9 after my father and I sometimes wish I had done things differently.  That I had known the tools existed and I had used them.  I think the break could have been less traumatic for all of us if I had handled things differently.  

Hi, Harri.

What I want to convey here is that once we’re abused, the relationship is over.
Do you mean for you it was over?  You get to make that choice for sure. 

This is a value that I’ve adopted in the aftermath. Mostly due to my ex. I’ve had my fill of abuse. It nearly cost me my life. I can’t take anymore of it. We’re susceptible to what most people aren’t. I get that, but I’m done allowing this to happen to me.

11 years after my mother died and 9 after my father and I sometimes wish I had done things differently.  That I had known the tools existed and I had used them.  I think the break could have been less traumatic for all of us if I had handled things differently. 

Harri, I wish that things could’ve been different as well. I’m very grateful to know you here, but I wish that we didn’t have to.

In your above statement, I see you putting undue responsibility on yourself. You were their child and held no obligation to know any tools on how to deal with them. You survived. That’s how you handled things. That’s all you could do. C-PTSD involves being a prisoner, which you know.

It was never up to you to handle things at all, let alone differently. I understand where you’re coming from. I do. But, IMHO, we don’t owe our abusers anything. We owe ourselves a great deal.

 
What are we susceptible to? 

I did not explain well.  That's what I get for posting at 2am.  I accept and understand that I did what I could and what I knew at the time.  It is now, with more healing and understanding of where I was at the time that I sometimes wish I had done things differently.  It is more of a d'oh sort of thing rather than beating myself up over it.  I feel no obligation nor sense of duty to rescue them.

Anyway, I did not mean to take the convo off course so I hope others respond with their thoughts.

As always, it is good to chat with you.

Hi JNChell,

I understand what you mean when you say you're grateful your parents are no longer here. My dad does not have BPD (thank goodness) but my mother does. I haven't spoken to her in over a month now and it feels great. I can feel myself coming back to life again and it is so much easier now to be happy. I dread the day I have to speak to her or see her again. I have nightmares at night of me running into her around town.

She is such a toxic person. I feel so good without her in my life, but I also feel guilty that I don't want her in my life. Guilt, obligation, anxiety- they all still linger. I think it's just how I have been conditioned. Most people around me have no idea about my mother. She puts on a great show when she's in front of a crowd, so other people have contributed to my guilt too because all they talk about is how wonderful she is.

I'm hoping to extinguish as much as possible these feelings of guilt, obligation, and anxiety before the next time I'm in contact with her.

Hi there, Harri. Always nice to chat with you as well.

What are we susceptible to?

Emotionally manipulative and abusive people. In my experiences it’s almost like they could sniff me out. I’m working on this. Building my confidence, self esteem and having boundaries that are only moveable by me. I need to give off a different “scent”. No more predators.

I did not explain well.  That's what I get for posting at 2am.  I accept and understand that I did what I could and what I knew at the time.  It is now, with more healing and understanding of where I was at the time that I sometimes wish I had done things differently.  It is more of a d'oh sort of thing rather than beating myself up over it.  I feel no obligation nor sense of duty to rescue them.

I’m sorry for misunderstanding you here. Thanks for painting this for me. I’m curious, have you ever dug into your parent’s past at all? I’ve done a little digging and the little bit that I’ve found out makes sense in relation to my parent’s actions. It hasn’t made me feel better about anything, but it has reinforced that this stuff is multigenerational and that the cycle stops with me.

Anyway, I did not mean to take the convo off course so I hope others respond with their thoughts.


This is the beauty of the boards, my friend. Sometimes the topic needs to go off course. Hope you’re well, Harri.

Hi there, naturalturn. I just wrote you a whole reply and somehow lost it, so I’m starting over.

I haven't spoken to her in over a month now and it feels great.

Do you plan to keep this boundary in place, or have you been giving yourself some space? Do you think that you will eventually have contact with her again?

Are you still communicating with your Dad? How has he been holding up with staying with your mom? I’m going to be blunt here. Is he resistant to her behaviors, numb to them or broken in your opinion?

I can feel myself coming back to life again and it is so much easier now to be happy.

I’m glad to read this. Again, is this a temporary decision or do you plan to make this a permanent change? You may have already read about these things, but I’d like to leave you with some info that you should did deeper on. One is FOG. Fear, Obligation and Guilt. The other is JADE. Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain. JADE is meant for you when contact is made again.

but I also feel guilty that I don't want her in my life.

I understand what you’re saying here. Please understand that there is nothing wrong with practicing self care. Exploring FOG will help you to make more sense of the guilt that you feel. This guilt has been placed on you. You didn’t derive this feeling. We were all born guilt free and happy. Search yourself and don’t let your mother derail your thoughts.

I feel so good without her in my life

You’ve spoken volumes here. You’re validating your self worth.

The people that don’t know simply don’t understand what it’s like to be close to someone with a personality disorder. This stuff manifests behind closed doors. Going out into public is like work release for children like us and it’s sad. The thing is, we’re now adults. The good news is that you showed up here. You’re breaking the cycle.

you have probably seen my posts, but I am waiting for the day so we are all at peace. I am 58 and back in therapy again,because I broke my own rules in a fantasy that things could be different.

I'm in my 30's. Living with my mother who is more and more violent. Why am I stuck like this ?  Well, a couple of years ago when I still thought that everything is butterflies and my mother's anger was oriented towards my father (I even justified it !), my mother and I offered ourselves a 'new life'in a foreign country. I was capable to learn a foreign language fast and to adapt, not my mother. I have a job and feel responsible for her at least financially. She could not survive on her own (and there's no way back).  But I cannot afford myself a place apart. And also, I have pannick attacks just of thinking that sommething could happen to my mother. I wish it was just a bad dream realizing thay she is mentally sick. But the bad dream goes on for a while now.  I loved her deeply all my life and I still do. I feel really stuck.

I understand.  How about re-framing this so you are working it from a position of power instead of being at the whims of others and their presumed predator characteristics.  (Yes, I am pushing a bit here... .but I am standing right beside you).  What would that sound like (or actually look like written down here?)

What you said was good, it just did not apply.  I have dug into my parents history.  I can understand where her anger hurt and abandonment and shame came from.  A lot of it was from the decades in which she grew up.  Raised by a mostly single mother of 5 kids during the depression.  An alcoholic father who was mostly absent but came around often enough to beat his wife (when sober) and get her pregnant and who molested my mother (no actual touching), again while sober.  She was 8 when she lost the older brother she worshipped and adored to a brutal time with stomach cancer and was the youngest and was basically ignored or raised by two older sisters who had their own issues. 

I get it.  Not sure when the schizophrenia came into play.  Usually it is the 20's to early 30's.  My father's mother died due to breast cancer when he was 19 and he was in the Korean War.  I don't know much else about him.  Certainly nothing that made him so horribly co-dependent and such a 'peace-keeper' passive abuser. 

Making sense of things can help but I think any help is limited.  My parents were not resilient and neither were strong people.  They had no self awareness and expected others to take care of them. 

I agree that a lot of the behavior is generational and yes, it stops here with me.  I have no kids and i have no regrets about that.  Between the abuse and a genetic disorder, it is time for this gene pool to die out. 

Hello, yamada. I’m glad that you joined in.

you have probably seen my posts, but I am waiting for the day so we are all at peace. I am 58 and back in therapy again,because I broke my own rules in a fantasy that things could be different.

I’m curious about your comment. How did you break your own rules? I think that this in and of itself can be an important and helpful discussion for the other members to observe and possibly join in a conversation.

I’m glad to hear that you’re in therapy. How’s that working for you? Thanks for chiming in.

Hello, FoxC.  :hi:

my mother who is more and more violent

I’m sorry about this.  If you’re comfortable in doing so, can you describe this a bit for us? Domestic violence can cause us so much undue stress. You’ve stated that you’re in your 30’s. Have you been subjected to abuse for this long?

I’m also curious. Why have you been angry with your father. What did he do?

I have a job and feel responsible for her at least financially.

Hmm. I’m going to be blunt here. It almost sounds like you’re being the parent here. Has it been this way for a long time? What drove your mother and father apart?

I feel really stuck.

I’m sorry that you’re experiencing this, but happy to see that you’re self aware. You’re in a good place here. If you’re simply seeking support or a way forward, we’re here for you. We understand.

Hi, dear Harri.

How about re-framing this so you are working it from a position of power instead of being at the whims of others and their presumed predator characteristics.

Please, continue to push. I appreciate a pragmatic approach. I’m straight forward to a fault. My days are numbered. The quicker, the better.

You are spot on here and I’m working on it. I like how you stated “presumed predator characteristics”. I’m hyper vigilant these days. I’m constantly on guard. I see disorders and potential abuse everywhere. I over analyze everything. I’m ok with this at this point. I’m confident that I’ll eventually realize this and regulate it. It’s just a feeling that I’m not used to yet so it’s coming on pretty strong. The latest and greatest.

A lot of it was from the decades in which she grew up.

Undeniable. We’ve read the research. We know why. The thing is, is that for some reason we’re doing what we can to end the madness. I’m proud of you, Harri. You’re overcoming what most peeps aren’t even aware of. You’re helping others at the same time. It’s commendable.

Your mom was traumatized. I’m sorry for her. This is my biggest curiosity. Why are you and I able to work on shaking this stuff off, while our parents couldn’t?

Making sense of things can help but I think any help is limited.  My parents were not resilient and neither were strong people.  They had no self awareness and expected others to take care of them.

Weakness and lacking self awareness. Yes. I guess that they found a way to feel strong.

Help is definitely limited, but it’s there. We’re products of our parents inability to be resilient. We are resilient, you and I.

Hey, JNChell, I hope you don’t mind me jumping into this thread you have going... .specifically, this convo with Harri.

I bobble in and out and all around that place of hyper vigilance too. I think it comes with the territory after surviving years of abuse from parents then choosing romantic partner(s) that have similar traits as our parents.

Some days I feel pretty confident and like I am getting my head straightened out, then I will “see” something and everything/one is suspect AGAIN and then I start doubting myself AGAIN (because I am broken, stupid, not good enough, not deserving enough, yada yada yada because not even my own mother could love me so why would anyone else ever treat me better than an old wad of already chewed and spit out gum?).

So... .I am working on self esteem. I am allowing myself to make mistakes and learn from them without beating myself to death. I am learning how to use my voice to stand up for myself instead of suffering while making sure everyone else is completely comfortable. It is no longer my job to sacrifice myself and my soul at any cost to make anyone else comfortable. By virtue of all this, a relationship with my mother (she is still alive) is absolutely out of the question for me. It is 100% NOT SAFE and I don’t OWE her anything or an explanation to anyone.

That said, I think everyone has to examine their own situations and make the best decision they can... .and adjust as needed. Personality disorders fall on a spectrum and I don’t think there is any one size fits all answer. Each one of us (as an adult) is responsible to do our best. There is no perfect. We all make mistakes and we each have to decide which path to take once the mistake is realized. I can only answer/choose/be responsible for me.

Thanks again for the question. Thank you for being you.

L2T

Hi JNChell!

Thanks for hearing me.  I think there are a lot of people out there who are disordered or are hurt people struggling just like we are so your caution is not a bad thing.  I just think it is important to work on our own strength and knowing we can handle our selves after working on us, learning the tools and how to interact better as individuals rather than losing ourselves in a relationship.

I will almost always stress being capable, coming at this from a place of personal power (picture an empowering wall poster here... .) and belief in ourselves to handle whatever comes our way.  We will learn what to do when a predator is around us and we will learn/know how to protect ourselves.  

I happen to think you are making very good choices here.

Speaking to your subject line from the angle of being the single child of a single adoptive mother,  I sought out other families to replace what I felt empty at home.  In one case, my mother resented it and felt threatened.  She told me that BFAM's mom was my "fun" mother while she had to put up with my  :cursing:

I never thought of my brother from another's mom as a replacement mom (she was like 15 years younger than my mom anyway), but I was attracted to their family unit (that which I saw lacking in my own life),  besides the fact that my BFAM was a good friend.  The point is that I sought out what I was lacking. In a way that also led me to get into the r/s with the mother of my kids,  trying to form the "white picket fence" life as an adult I was denied as a child.  I got there.  And then my ex went off the rails. With me not having the tools or insight to rescue it.  

Yes! Any relationship that requires losing our sense of self =  red-flag  red-flag  red-flag
Yes. Learning how to protect ourselves is super important. I’m going to take this a step further and say we must also be willing and able to protect ourselves... .and that is our responsibility to ourselves.

I think that when you do things out of a sense of obligation, this is not a healthy place to be. Important to note that in our article about fear, obligation and/or guilt (FOG), we mention that FOG isn't how others control us, it's how we let others control us. It's a choice we make.

Now as adults we are responsible for our own choices. We do not have to choose to act out of fear, obligation or guilt. If we have extricated ourselves from the FOG, this however does not necessarily have to mean that we totally distance ourselves from our BPD family-members. On the one hand we have 'obligation' but on the other hand it is also possible to make choices out of a sense of responsibility, something we choose to do because we believe it's the right thing to do based on our own personal values. These types of choices I do consider healthy.

No matter what choices we make, keeping ourselves safe and protecting our own well-being (and that of any children involved) is of course most important of all.

Thanks everyone. This has become a great conversation.  It has teetered on a debate, but I think some very good information has been shared. I’ve learned here and have been given different POV’s to consider for my own personal set of circumstances.

S3 is on a roll this morning, but I’m going to get to each point when I can. Love you all. You’re wonderful people.

Hello, Turkish.

I sought out other families to replace what I felt empty at home.

Subconsciously at the time, I did this as well. This is the family that took me in as an adult with child when I hit my low. Humanitarians are real. So are best friends.

I was attracted to their family unit

I still am. My therapist has shown me why and how it was another reason why I didn’t end up with a PD. I have a severe anxiety disorder, but I’m aware of it and I embrace it. I will heal. It’s like the little things saved us from crossing over.

In a way that also led me to get into the r/s with the mother of my kids,  trying to form the "white picket fence" life as an adult I was denied as a child.  I got there.  And then my ex went off the rails. With me not having the tools or insight to rescue it.

“I got there. And then my ex went off the rails”. Turkish, this makes me cry. I’m with you on the tools and insight, but at the end of the day, was this really our obligation? Was this what we envisioned as true love?

Kwamina, I’m glad that you joined us.

FOG isn't how others control us, it's how we let others control us.

Yes. It’s our strength and what we allow. My mind is shifting to this. It’s a transition. Old habits.

it is also possible to make choices out of a sense of responsibility,

We should’ve been taught this by our parents and it feels unfair to have to learn this so much further down the road. The good news is that we’re aware now. We want to learn this. We want to become better. We possess adult minds that have been to hell and back. In the aftermath of that, we’re now processing. We’re resilient. I think that the odds are stacked in our favor.

Kwamina, I love this. I think it’s always best to stand one’s ground in a strong, but peaceful manner.

Value:   I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:   It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:   Communicate my values. Lead by example (education - proactive)

Value:   I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:   It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:   When a hot topics begin to simmer, I redirect the discussion to a safer topic.  (incident avoidance - proactive).

Value:   I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:   It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:   I will take a time out or hang up (incident avoidance - reactive).

Value:   I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:   One cannot be respected in a consistently verbally abusive environment.
Action:   I will remove myself permanently from the environment or until there is change (total avoidance).

Awww, thanks JNChell. The ride was great. So beautiful and soothing. Though, it was much shorter than I would have preferred, but husband was with me and he had all he could manage. So, I put on my wise mind and smile. I was am still am thankful for what I was able to do and enjoy yesterday. I also formed some ideas for how I can go back with a few gal pal cyclists who will enjoy a longer ride.

Yes. I, too, cry for the people here suffering real pain.


This is a beautifully sad and accurate description of how I have felt most of my life. However, as I work on myself (including letting go of relationships that serve no healthy purpose) and practice the tools I am very pleased to say my chosen family is growing.  

Have a great day JNChell and everyone who has participated in this thread. I’m thankful all of you are part of my chosen family and for the healthy discussions we can have here.

  L2T

Speaking of oaks, I’ve seen this one first hand while playing gigs in Chareleston. The pics don’t do it justice. It’s an amazing living thing to witness.

www.angeloaktree.com (http://www.angeloaktree.com)

I think I will eventually have contact with her again, I am just not sure when. This is the first time I have ever done something remotely like this so I am figuring it out as I go along with the help of supportive people in my life and my therapist. Honestly, it sounds great to never have to speak to her again, but I doubt that will happen.


I still talk to my dad, everyday actually. And I try to visit him at least once a week. He has been very supportive throughout all of this. My mother and he are separated. But she still contacts him most days. He seems pretty numb to her behaviors at this point. She is hateful towards him, but he brushes it off. He reminds me that I'm doing the right thing and I think he is right. My quality of life has improved drastically without my mother in it.

Thank you for you advice and support JNChell. It is nice we are all here for each other 

I’m curious about how much other members are currently doing for their abusers and why you feel the obligation to continue to do so.



One defense mechanism children of abusers have is to think " it is not that bad". This is because an abusive person isn't usually abusive all the time. They can also be loving, act contrite.  Abuse is cyclic, and so there are times when the person is in "make up" mode and this can be confusing. Also, a child growing up in an abusive situation doesn't have a reference for normal.

In addition, the abuser often blames the victim.

It took me a long time to identify that my parents- both of them- were abusive to me. My BPD mother was  emotionally abusive. My father didn't abuse me directly but as her enabler, he was complicit in denying what she was doing.

Why did it take me so long?

My mother didn't beat me. My parents took great care of me in other ways- I had food, shelter, nice clothes, a good education, braces on my teeth, health care and some really wonderful times growing up. I assumed abuse was getting beaten, starved, locked in a basement.

My mother didn't directly sexually abuse me, but she shared TMI about her sex life with me and acted inappropriately sexually in front of me when I was young. I assumed that SA was touching.

I loved my father and he was a great father to me. I think the main issue was keeping my mother's condition a secret and making us pretend she was normal and also enlisting us as her enablers as well to keep the peace.  I didn't want to go NC with him ( he is now deceased). I feel he did the best he knew to do with a tough situation. I think we had a parent/child relationship a lot of the time and consider him to be my only "parent".

A parent/child relationship with my mother isn't possible. I tried to go NC with her once when I was younger and single but it didn't work as I still wanted to see my father and they were a package deal. Once I had kids, they had a great relationship with my father. I didn't leave them unsupervised with my mother- that was a boundary - and she was motivated to behave herself in a group family setting. My kids didn't bond with my mother- but they loved my father and he was a great grampa to them. I am most glad that I didn't go NC for this- my kids got to spend time with their grampa and it was a good relationship.

I am LC with my mother. The relationship isn't typical. I was parentified by my early teens. Her interactions with me are about her- what she wants, her feelings, her needs. I have kept an emotional distance from her yet still interact with her. Why this and not NC?  My father was her main caretaker, and she was widowed in her elder years. She may have been a scary abuser to me as a child, but I am middle age and she is an elderly widow. She can't harm me. I look at things in the here and now and she is not a danger to me. It wouldn't seem right to me to cut contact with her at this time. I also have done a lot of work on my own emotional boundaries and putting her issues into perspective and not feeling as reactive or hurt by things she says or does.

What I did feel when my father passed away- in addition to a lot of grief over his death and some "wishing I did some things differently" was a surprising sense of relief. Not relief that he was gone. I was very sad about that, but relief that, I didn't have to fear his disapproval if I had boundaries with my mother. Much of the fear in FOG for me was not really fear of her, but fear of disapproval from him. I did experience that as I started to have boundaries with her before he died, and this caused me to lose the relationship I had with him. I tried to get this back but couldn't. Once he was gone, I felt I didn't have this to lose with my mother. I didn't want to treat her cruelly but I no longer felt I had to let her be emotionally abusive to me. I didn't expect to feel this odd sense of freedom in along with grief,  it was surprising.

Hi, naturalturn.

I think I will eventually have contact with her again, I am just not sure when. This is the first time I have ever done something remotely like this so I am figuring it out as I go along with the help of supportive people in my life and my therapist. Honestly, it sounds great to never have to speak to her again, but I doubt that will happen.

I understand and thank you for responding. It is definitely new territory when we decide to start protecting ourselves. Have you had a chance to read on the right side of this board? |---> Like you, I’ve been figuring this out along the way. That’s the only way that we can sort this out. There isn’t a textbook on our own personal situations. What’s important is that you’re here.

I’m glad that you have supportive people in your life. I’m doubly glad that you have a trusted therapist. These two things make a big difference to the point of being a game changer.

You will most likely have to be in contact with your mother again. This community would like to assist you in doing this in a manner that feels safe and acceptible to you. Not on your mother’s terms.

He seems pretty numb to her behaviors at this point. She is hateful towards him, but he brushes it off.

It’s great that you have a good relationship with your father. Maybe you can eventually introduce him to some tools in a gentle way.

More importantly, I hope that your therapist is helping you to realize that you shouldn’t adopt your father’s thought pattern through all of this. We drag this stuff into relationships and we need to be careful. Know what I mean?

It is nice we are all here for each otherl

Yes it is. It’s also nice to know that another member has shown up.

JNChell,
I apologize for going off topic here, I do not mean to highjack a really good thread.

But Notwendys contribution has made me wonder:


How did you manage to clearly identify this in the end? And - maybe even more importantly - how did you accept this?

Sorry, I am struggling with this at the moment... .

Libra.

Notwendy, thanks for showing up here. |iii

One defense mechanism children of abusers have is to think " it is not that bad". This is because an abusive person isn't usually abusive all the time. They can also be loving, act contrite.  Abuse is cyclic, and so there are times when the person is in "make up" mode and this can be confusing. Also, a child growing up in an abusive situation doesn't have a reference for normal.


This is the biggest defense mechanism. The cyclic dynamic causes so much psychological damage. We meet capable people, and have no idea what to do with it.


It took me a long time to identify that my parents-m

You were abused by both of your parents. Can we speak freely about this now?

Libra, how are you?

How did you manage to clearly identify this in the end? And - maybe even more importantly - how did you accept this?

I know that your question is directed towards Notwendy. Identifying it took distance. Acceptance took a great deal of pain. It took experiencing my childhood over and over again. I’m here now.

Libra, this thread is wide open.

I think the understanding of abuse evolved over time. I was also experiencing some verbal abuse in my marriage that I didn't identify as abuse because there were periods of good times and he was generally caring. He also never did any harm to the kids. That would have been a deal breaker for me- it was with my parents and would have been with him. Thank goodness I didn't have to deal with that. There was no physical abuse so I didn't recognize it as abuse to me.

So, learning about my marriage, I came across the books by Patricia Evans while browsing through a book store and identified several examples of verbal abuse in both my marriage and with my parents. This was a huge eye opener. I read them in the car, then donated them to a library. I didn't want to bring them home, not out of fear of abuse but to give me space to learn on my own without an argument over them. but I read them several times and learned from them.

When my father first got ill ( he died after a long illness ) I went to stay at my parents' house ( alone ) to help out. As I said before- I mostly saw BPD mom in a family setting or with both my parents. I don't think I had spent several days alone with BPD mom since I lived at home before I graduated and went to college. For the first time in decades I was alone in the house with her for an extended time ( Dad was in the hospital ). It was a stressful time and mom was in full force- basically screaming and verbal emotionally abusing me for days. Before I left home for college my mother told me I was the cause of her issues with my Dad and I believed her, so I expected she'd have been fine. This time, I saw her behavior as an adult who had been away for decades. It wasn't normal and even though my parents pretended it was, I knew better.

I then decided I needed boundaries with her. My kids were older and she started enlisting them as her enablers as well. I put the brakes on that. I expected my father to support my wishes as far as my kids were concerned. I didn't expect his reaction. He was angry at me. He said "I just want us to be a happy family again". I realized this wasn't about my happiness-  I wasn't happy but if I was mom's doormat, then the stress in the family was less. My refusal to do so rocked the boat.

I was in counseling for both the marriage and  dealing with my parents. I wanted to help out, but both of them would be verbally abusive to me when I visited. Dad got a pass from me. This was not his usual self. He was ill. My mother was also abusing him to the point where I called social services on them. Ironically,my parents had been able to convince me that my mother was fine, but seeing her abuse my father was a horrible thing to witness. I realized she didn't just abuse her kids growing up, she abused him too.

Can I talk about it- some now, but it isn't easy- I still feel uncomfortable discussing it. Have I resolved it? Pretty much - but know this is over a decade of counseling. It was easier to forgive Dad as if it were not for him, I would not have had the good things in my childhood. I think he did the best he could. I have looked into both my parents' backgrounds. I suspect my mother was sexually abused, from her inappropriate behavior and her family would have been in denial. Nobody in her family would have ever admitted it and considering my mother's age, there is no relative alive who could have done it.  Her immediate family members have narcissistic tendencies and present the best of themselves. My father's background seemed normal, but in his day, people dated briefly and married young. My mother was a beauty and I think he just fell for her, later realized she had issues, and he had a wife and kids to support, and tried to do all he knew to do. There were few mental health resources years ago and people didn't talk about it.

JNChell,
I'm okay. Thank you for asking. 
I more often read than post (yep, one of those lurkers ).
Some things mentioned in this thread though are heavy on my mind at the moment.

That's me! How do you know it's abuse then? Where do you draw the line?
I've had it pumped into my head not to exaggerate, not to think about me. My feelings are superfluous.
Is that abuse? I still cannot manage to define that as abuse, to see myself as abused.
Moreover, am I still being abused then?

Thank you for all of the non-lurking work you put into this board JNChell.

Notwendy,
Thank you for your quick and open response.
You write: My kids were older and she started enlisting them as her enablers as well.
How did you notice this?
 
I need to process all of this some more. There is nothing useful I can add at the moment.

I am very grateful for this board and the people here. 
Wishing you all good and peaceful night,
Libra.

I've had it pumped into my head not to exaggerate, not to think about me. My feelings are superfluous.
Is that abuse? I


I think emotional abuse is hard to prove/define sometimes.

Keep in mind that, an emotionally healthy parent sees their task as meeting the child's needs. ( and this varies according to age of the child ), and the child is a separate individual. A disordered parent sees the child as an extension of themselves and the child is expected to meet the parent's need. As long as the child does this, things are relatively peaceful, but a normal child will begin to differentiate from the parent and assert themselves as a separate entity with a mind of their own, and this starts conflict. A parallel is an abusive marriage where the couple is enmeshed and if the partner who is expected to meet the abusive one's emotional needs doesn't meet expectations, the abusive partner becomes enraged.  

Abuse also can be cyclic and have a Jekyll -Hyde quality. The good times are great. But this doesn't negate the abuse.

Also consider the impact of socio economic status. Poverty is a risk factor in that there may not be funds to take care of the children's basic needs. Thankfully we were not in poverty. My mother came from a high SES family that is concerned about appearances. She looked good- and she wanted us kids to look good. Perhaps she also dressed us and took care of our basic needs out of a desire to be a good parent, but also not doing that would not be consistent with the other members of her family who did this with their kids. She would not have had them see us without these things. What went on behind closed doors was a well protected family secret. We were not allowed to tell anyone.

So what went on? Evenings full of my mother screaming and raging around the house, trashing the place, then the next day acting as and telling us nothing happened ( gaslighting ). Telling me I was fat as a teen ( I was slim) and that I had to lose weight ( I suspect she had some anorexia as she was very tiny and so projected that on to me). Telling me I was the cause of the issues with my parents and that they were planning to send me away. If I left a toy out of place and left the house, she'd either throw it out or hold it for ransom until she decided I was good enough to get it back. Making our Dad tell us we had to give our puppy away or she'd leave. Sharing details about her sex life with my father with me starting when I was about 12. Do I need to say more?

One way she gets her emotional needs met is to have people wait on her as if they were servants. So she'd bark orders at us to do things for her and it wasn't the task at hand she wanted but for us to be servants. This happened more when I was a teen and could do these things for her. She'd also be critical of us if we made a mistake. Heaven help you if you went to the store and forgot an item- she'd insult you, or make fun of you. She also used the silent treatment- lock herself in her room and have her crying children outside the door begging her to come out.

This is how I noticed she was beginning to enlist my children. If we visited she would want things done in the house. I would offer to do that and she would say "no, I want grandchild to do it" . This is when I realized that it wasn't that she needed or wanted the task to be done ( take out trash, wash the dishes) but that she wanted to enlist grandkids as servants to meet her emotional need for that. She also began to ask invasive questions about if they were romantically interested in others and knew she had poor boundaries about that, so I instructed them to avoid conversations like that.

There is more, but I think this is the general idea.

I suppose my way of dealing with it was to amplify guilt, it seems in the absence of love to be a powerful one.

They stopped when they finally cottoned on to my tactic. It led me to a good few years of living in the best neighbourhood, hedonistic lifestyle.

I still keep in contact, iim a grown adult, independent of them (which they dont like). They are wealthy, yet I cant be manipulated by it. I really cant stand either of them, yet at the same time, I give credit where its due, deprived them of grandkids and following the type of career that they could both in equal measures - bathe in reflected glory to validate "what a good job they did". I realise how much of my own potential I sabotaged just to avoid someone else achieving what i can only relate to now as something akin to a narcissitic extended image. It became all too counterproductive,

 Cue: BPD relationship time.

I woke up one day and the hatred was gone, compassion fell from the sky. I just feel sorry for them these days JNChell, not enough to upset my day, but enough to make peace for my own sake. its my responsibility to follow natures course and evolve to become better. I cant do this by holding on to bitterness, being with my BPDx immunised me to holding grudges, It was an outside-in lens of seeing myself, holding eternal grudges that served no more value than to - sully the experience of living life for the moment. I saw how much of her life was wasted, in the same process, saw my own trickling away. My ex was entirely emotionally enmeshed, incestously so, I saw a woman brainwashed and I never once even thought about trying to put in my own way of destabilising it; for all that I did do to upset the apple cart at times, play with fire, that was one thing I knew not to even try.

Apathy, JNChell, maybe rooted in mild depression I carry. It works though, enough to concede defeat in being unable to change the past, yet not overwhelming enough not to forge ahead and live the future my own way. There is the saying "dont cut off your nose to spite your face", I did that for too long. Theres a new style of diplomacy these days, theres big boundaries in place, but it did take a form of awakening to begin to make proper sense of it all. maybe in time I will stop pressing the guilt button, but for now it is not so much lucrative as it feels compensatory; it is folly; what price can you put on that amount of emotional discontent?

there has to be another way.

Notwendy,

Thank you for sharing.   
I understand what you mean now.

I am sorry you had to go through that as a child, and that it continued into your adult relationship.
Congratulations though on seeing this, untangling yourself, and protecting your children.
It is commendable that you were able to create sufficient emotional distance an boundaries and to choose to stay LC with your mother.
I get why you chose this path.

Libra.

Thanks Libra. It's odd to recall my childhood. It was our "normal" and also, there were wonderful parts of it. Strange to have both wonderful and then this secret aspect of our lives. Nobody has a clue- and if we kids said anything- people didn't believe us. ( and we were not allowed to say anything about it). They have no idea how she treats her immediate family behind closed doors.

I can't change the past, but I think it helps to understand it. What is difficult now is that, she still has BPD and she is elderly. Were this a normal parent/child relationship, I would be spending more time with her, helping her but I tried this with my parents, and the level of abuse was not something I could, or should tolerate. I know it is best for me to keep a reasonable distance from her, and yet, I feel a sadness that I don't have a normal parent child relationship with an elderly parent. I know it isn't possible. I think if there is a normal parent-child relationship an occasional angry outburst or remark from an elderly parent won't affect the relationship any more than one from an angry teen to a parent. The bond is there. But to my mother I am mainly something useful to her. I don't think there ever was a normal parent- child bond on her part. I did feel I had one with my father, even if the relationship was affected by the dynamics with BPD mom.

Your story sounds very similar to mine. Trying to deal with this "wonderful" part of our childhood, but also recognizing that there were very terrible parts too can feel confusing. The EMDR specialist I went to see last week told me to write down 10 happy memories from my childhood. I know there were far more than 10 times I was happy in my childhood, but it seems nearly impossible to recall them.

Many people have no idea how my mother treats me and the immediate family behind closed doors, it's like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type situation.

Though my mother isn't elderly, I still dearly wish I had a normal relationship with her. Now that I have a better understanding of her condition and the abuse that took place, it seems we never had a normal mother-daughter relationship. It makes me very sad to think this may be impossible and that's probably why I still feel some desire to allow her back in my life in the future as I dream of us having a supportive, kind relationship.

I am thankful for my father though as we do have a healthy father-daughter relationship, but I worry about him as he is elderly.

Cromwell, thanks for joining the thread. Very glad.

I suppose my way of dealing with it was to amplify guilt, it seems in the absence of love to be a powerful one.

Were you amplifying this guilt from yourself outward to show your parents, or amplifying from your parents towards yourself. Either scenario makes sense to me. I showed this as me portraying my guilt to my parents as a very young child. I was reminded of it while my sister and I were settling their estate after they passed on 4 months apart. While going through everything, I came across “apology cards” that I had made for them out of construction paper and crayons as a young child. I know that I made these after episodes of abuse. I didn’t keep them. They were examples of me validating the very things that have landed me here, in abusive relationships and therapy once a week, although I didn’t have the understanding of the magnitude of all of this at the time of their deaths.

I realise how much of my own potential I sabotaged just to avoid someone else achieving what i can only relate to now as something akin to a narcissitic extended image. It became all too counterproductive,

I hear this loud and clear. “JNChell, you’re not living up to your potential!” How could we under those circumstances? Why would we want to? Honestly, I think it would’ve felt gross because as you stated, they were coming from a place of image and appearance. Our success or lack there of in their eyes was a reflection of themselves. I rebelled. Sounds like you did too.

I woke up one day and the hatred was gone, compassion fell from the sky. I just feel sorry for them these days

I’m happy for you that you’ve reached this point, Cromwell. I often wonder if my folks were still around, if it would’ve been easier to observe them in real time to come to a better understanding and healthier frame of thought for myself, than to witness them die so close together on the timeline with zero closure. Perhaps I could’ve found some closure. If not through them, maybe through a place like this to bounce things off of. As it is, it’s now finite. I’m not too happy about that. Especially not at this point in my life. I’m just now recently realizing and understanding that I wasn’t taught the tools to protect myself as an adult. I can empathize with you on feeling sorry for them... .to a point. Something happened in their young lives that caused them to behave the way that they did. The pain that they caused outweighs my sympathy. That’s where the multigenerational cycle ends.

It was an outside-in lens of seeing myself

Thanks for pointing this out. This is a great description of mirroring. Have you heard it said at different times on these boards that we actually fall in love with the mirroring thinking that we’re falling in love with our partner? I think that this falls along the narcissism spectrum a bit more, but the overlap is there. I know that my Son’s mother is a borderline. I know enough now. I also know that she has strong narcissistic traits. It’s an impossible feat. I’m not strong enough to try. I have my own crap to come to terms with and fix.

Theres a new style of diplomacy these days, theres big boundaries in place, but it did take a form of awakening to begin to make proper sense of it all. maybe in time I will stop pressing the guilt button, but for now it is not so much lucrative as it feels compensatory; it is folly; what price can you put on that amount of emotional discontent?

One step at a time. I’ve come to realize that there can be a narrative in this kind of healing/self realization. It’s backwards in a sense. We need to be hurt in real time, sometimes over and over to trace that back to the roots or core of why. It becomes simple once we allow ourselves to arrive there. It’s familiar to us in a deep seeded way. We didn’t choose this, we were taught it. We were vulnerable, and we continue to subconsciously make ourselves vulnerable to the same treatments because we want to correct the outcome. I believe that this requires a paradigm shift and intensive self work.

Notwendy,

Yes, it is not easy to accept that what was normal actually isn’t, but that there were still good times as well. It’s a brain twister. One you shouldn’t have to be doing in the first place.

I get this. My mother is 72 now, and still going strong. But besides abandonment issues she has serious issues with asking for and accepting help. I am not looking forward to her becoming elderly and needy. My brother (the ‘good one’) lives abroad, so it will be up to me to try and support her. I am still getting my head around the fact that it will not be a normal parent-child relationship either.


This. Yes. This is how it has felt for a long time.
And at times the complete opposite: it is very clear when I am useless.

Thank you for sharing this. It has helped me finally accept that this is acceptable.
There is no bond. There is no respect. There is only FOG, and duty, and expectations.

It is so good that you were able to see - and connect with - your father, even  though the family dynamics were wrong.
You can cherish those memories, and your children can cherish their memories of their grampa.

Thank you for your input Notwendy. It has helped me set some things straight I my mind.

Libra.

Hello Naturalturn,

Thank you for joining in!

I can relate to this. I know my childhood wasn’t all bad (which makes it very confusing). But I can’t pinpoint any happy memories either. My mind goes blanc.
If you feel up to it, please continue sharing your progress with us. I am curious to know how your childhood memories will evolve.

I get this so much.   
After a lot healing (for myself), learning about boundaries, healthy relationships, etc. and with the help and guidance of this board and a T, I have gone from NC to LC with my mother. This has helped me realize the dream will never happen. There is no bond. She does not see me as a separate individual.
The next step for me was to grieve and to let that dream go (it still flares up sometimes). Now, I am trying to figure out what kind of a relationship is possible, knowing and accepting my own limits, and who my mother is. I know the brunt of the work for this relationship will have to come from me. I am still trying to figure out how much work I am prepared to put in, for minimal return.

Do you see yourself going from NC to LC in the future? If so, what kind of a relationship would still be worthwhile for you to have with your mother?

Give yourself plenty of time and take care. 

Libra.

It may be that you don't know your limits until you find out. When my father was ill and I went to help- my mother was so out of control I didn't get much sleep. I have to drive several hours to get to her house. My limit wasn't just emotional, it was also physical- I was afraid to drive without adequate sleep and physically not sleeping wasn't something I could manage. My parents didn't seem to follow any kind of biological clock- they ate meals- whenever, stayed up late, slept during the day. I know we had a routine when my father was working, and we kids were home and had school but once he retired there didn't seem to be any kind of routine or order. That may work for them, but I can't manage this. In addition, I had to arrange child care for my own kids to leave to help them and had limits on how much I could do that. 

I realize the focus was on my father and things were stressful, but there was no consideration on my mother's part for my basic needs- such as sleep or any concern that I had to get back to take care of my own children. If mom was upset at night she'd cry loudly and wake me up. 

I understand this was stressful for her but I can't be on duty 24 hours a day when I am there.  After that, if I visited, I stayed in a hotel- so I would have a quiet space to sleep at night and didn't stay as long. I don't expect her to see me as anything more than useful to her, but I realized that I needed to take care of my basic needs when visiting her and had to have limits on how much I could help. I also had my own kids to take care of.

You did what you could Notwendy, you even tried to do beyond what you could. 

I think taking care of an elderly parent is scary and draining even for those with healthy parent/child relationships.
So trying to do this when there is no bond, no differentiation between you and your needy parent ... .it must be so very hard.

It was wise of you to set limits in order to take care of you, and to ensure that you could also be there for your own children.
I can only hope I will find the same strength and wisdom within myself if the need would ever arise.

Libra.

Hi JNChell, once again you manage to find something to give me that bit of extra insight somehow. I was writing from the point of view that as an adult I amplified guilt as a form of retaliation, but as a child it was heavily induced for me to believe that I was always the one at fault for anything that went wrong. I guess it was too extreme, to the point even in a child-like mind I held my own private reservations that "your nuts!" also the way in which they were anti-social to others to an extreme of "never" being wrong. It just didnt make any sense even though I couldnt understand - what any of it meant. I was also subjected to those polarised "idolised" moments, and treated extremely well, many of my peers saw me as "spoiled" in those moments. I look back now and reconfigure my thoughts - their way of dealing with their own guilt, as opposed to true love. Im ok with that, I can at least as an adult - rationalise it better.
Nothing to add JNChell, you sum it all up perfectly how I feel. anything less than president, an astronaut or a nobel prize winner - they would have found some fault. What id like to add was, by 19 I had achieved a respected career, id became more educated than either of them - they found fault where any normal parents would have been proud. There is not only the paradox of not doing well enough - but doing better than they had to contend with. When the "student outshines the master day" arrives, springs to mind.
Hi JNChell, I hope you do - its your posts that I notice draw back to childhood that have filled the "missing link" for me since I came to this board. You know as far as ive gathered - having a personality disorder goes hand in hand with having some pretty impressive if ineffective coping mechanisms, denial being one of them. I talked about being 'brainwashed' by my ex, for example - but have to ponder - how much have they brainwashed themselves? Its a solid, seemingly impenatrable mental fortress erected up that would take a lot of skill to ever get down. Its painful for me to have to do some reflecting, what would it take for them to confront behaviour that has been negative over, well, an entire lifetime? When you read into NPD and BPD, reluctance to change, reluctance for therapy; its hardwired in. huge defense mechanisms to protect the ego. Im sorry you havent found closure, my parents are alive and I might have found some peace, but closure ive given up on; they are incorrigible and I have to radical acceptance it. (for my own sake)


Im not too sure about calling it narcissistic, is it not normal to have friends that have things in common rather than the converse? Shared hobbies, values, beliefs. Like sticks to Like, muck sticks to muck. Birds of a feather flock together sort of stuff? Isnt a compliment better than an insult?  I really like your last line; lifes too short JNChell, when I say I found compassion, its rooted in a wake-up that forget about them, my life is finite too (existentialist crisis? ) and I dont want to sabotage or waste a minute more of emotional energy on it.


Im just happy that I "ever" started to recognise this, some go through their lives never finding it out. You give me so much to think about JNChell - it makes sense to the point of making me wonder why it was never so blatantly clear to me in the first place. thank you.

Hey, Cromwell.

I was writing from the point of view that as an adult I amplified guilt as a form of retaliation, but as a child it was heavily induced for me to believe that I was always the one at fault for anything that went wrong.

Man, that statement hit me like a ton of bricks, and I’m sorry that you experienced the same dynamic. It didn’t matter what it was. I was mowing the yard and the mower broke down. It was my fault and it was dramatic. Insert any appliance into that statement. I was responsible for my dad slapping my mother, etc.

I look back now and reconfigure my thoughts - their way of dealing with their own guilt, as opposed to true love. Im ok with that, I can at least as an adult - rationalise it better.

I can do this a bit now. They both died in 2010 so my progress feels very delayed. When I look at the romantic relationships I’ve been in and the things I’ve learned, it’s not so mysterious to me anymore.

I’d like to add shame to your guilt statement. I believe that shame is projected much more than guilt. Guilt is acceptance.

how much have they brainwashed themselves?

I think I understand you here. I believe that we have been conditioned to place an undue amount of pressure on ourselves. You have mentioned in another post on another board that your anxiety level has a baseline that is so high that you can’t/don’t recognize it. I’m not putting you on the spot, just repeating what we talked about. If I’m correct here, we’re responsible for part of this brainwashing. I agree with you on this idea. Poor conditioning (raising) by our parents definitely has this affect. Mental momentum.

Its painful for me to have to do some reflecting, what would it take for them to confront behaviour that has been negative over, well, an entire lifetime?

21 years ago, I confronted my parents over their abuse. I was gaslighted in a way that is inconceivable to me. They denied everything. I had a cocked and loaded pistol shoved into my gut at one point in my adolescence. I left that engagement feeling crazy again. Questioning my reality. I felt crazy.

There’s a strong chance that your parents will never acknowledge how they affected you. What will it take for them to do this? The same thing that it would take for our ex’s to do this. Self reflection and long term therapy.

My parents are dead, so I don’t carry the burden of “what if’s” if they were still alive. I’m allowed to explore this and heal in peace now. I’m pissed off about the residual affects. Picking the wrong romantic partners and eventually sharing a child with one. Although, I’m glad that my Son will never meet his grandparents.

Cromwell, for you, the reflecting has to come from you. We were victims as children, but we’re adults now. We have to put things in place, whatever they may be, to be who we want to be. Along with that, we need to be patient and mindful to make sure that we don’t skip any steps along the way to becoming healed and as healthy as we can be.

it makes sense to the point of making me wonder why it was never so blatantly clear to me in the first place.

The only thing that is blatantly clear to a child is what they are taught by their parents.

It was brave of you to confront them no matter what they said.  I never did; I just voted with my feet on my 18th birthday and never spent a night back in her house again.  I never had a gun shoved into my gut; that's unreal. 

The only time she kind of hinted at anything was out of the blue one night when I had invited her over to my friends' house for a BBQ. Apropos of nothing,  she said that the only time when she might have abused me was when I was 14 and she was berating me so badly that I dropped to the ground in a seizure.  Luckily it was on a dirt road rather than pavement.  She took me to get evaluated and was nicer to me for a week or so,  I don't remember.

I was so disgusted by the apology not apology that I changed the subject, going back into my habit of minimizing and fleeing conflict. I was the bbq master and I had people to feed.  That was almost ten years ago. 

A few years ago when my mom admitted to me that she was BPD I just listened.  I really didn't want to engage that.  I didn't feel like being her therapist,  which was a missed opportunity, yet I felt like I couldn't engage without anger so I just listened. 

 :hi: JNChell and Cromwell!

Skip recently shared an article on another thread that has been an incredible eye opener for me. It may or may not offer insight to you.  It’s on skapegoating. My mother rotated golden child status and skapegoat status among me and my 3 siblings. I never really considered that I am now the permanent skapegoat until I read it:

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174 (https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174)

It does have religious reference but not pushing of religion in context. Truly a fascinating read and explains so much to me I had not even considered previously.

   L2T

Turkish,

I just voted with my feet on my 18th birthday and never spent a night back in her house again.

Good. This served you. It was most likely a very good move on your part.

she said that the only time when she might have abused me was when I was 14 and she was berating me so badly that I dropped to the ground in a seizure.

Wow! What an incredible validation. Yes. Sarcasm. I’m glad that your head had a dirt pad as well. I’ve read accounts where abuse victims end up with permanent shaking. Their nervous system has been permanently damaged by extreme abuse.

What amazes me is that you’re still able to care for and interact in a loving way with your abusers. It’s confusing to be honest. I read all of your stuff here.

I was so disgusted by the apology not apology that I changed the subject

My dad tried something similar over the phone. Mom was dying and he said “you didn’t deserve everything. You weren’t a bad kid.” I cut him off and ended the phone call.

which was a missed opportunity

Turhish, you’re a wiser man than me, but this wasn’t a missed opportunity. This was another chance to abuse.

Thanks, big Sis! I will check it out.

Despite she trying to "adopt" various dysfunctional women and families over the years,  she had no one else. It wasn't love so much as obligation.  I guess that could be love in a way. 

I read this quote a while back of a father talking to his son,  "do the right thing, you'll be punished for it,  but do it anyway."

My ex has given me grief about something like this,  most recently about being honest on a child support form.  That has nothing to do with what we're taking about here though. 

I talked to a buddy the other night who lives in another state.  I met him when I was 13 and in his words,  "your mom was always bat-s crazy." His mom was far,  far worse. He told me again that I went above and beyond with my mom.  I guess so.

The kids and I were going to go to the mountains this weekend.  Yet I can't help but feel guilt that I don't want to drive 45 mins north to visit my mother in another town.  It would be a 3 hours drive home from there.  S8 prays that his grandma lives to 124 years old so we can see her and that she's healed.  I'm not going to quash the faith of a little child but that long a life horrifies me. 


Why did this admission piss you off?

L2T, great article! Much thanks big sis!   I included it on zachira’s thread on scapegoating.

You’re very welcome, JNChell, my brother .   I have to say, I have read it a few times now and each time I feel just a little more FREE from the heartbreak. I can choose a healthy family now and let go of the dream that was only ever a nightmare.

  L2T

Turkish.

It wasn't love so much as obligation.  I guess that could be love in a way.

Maybe this was how they knew love to be?

I read this quote a while back of a father talking to his son,  "do the right thing, you'll be punished for it,  but do it anyway."

I really like this. This quote, or a form of it, will most likely be used to give my Son advice eventually. I’m glad that you shared this.

I went above and beyond with my mom.

You most certainly have, and you should be very proud of yourself in doing so. You took the high road. The compassion that you’re able to willfully give is admirable. Your kids are very lucky to have you as their Father.

The kids and I were going to go to the mountains this weekend.  Yet I can't help but feel guilt that I don't want to drive 45 mins north to visit my mother in another town.  It would be a 3 hours drive home from there.  S8 prays that his grandma lives to 124 years old so we can see her and that she's healed.  I'm not going to quash the faith of a little child but that long a life horrifies me.

Your feelings are yours to have, but please don’t feel guilty about not wanting to see her. That feeling of guilt isn’t yours. Maybe it’s been projected onto you for so long that it feels like you should own it, but you don’t have to. Just a thought.

A weekend in the mountains sounds like a literal breathe of fresh air and decompression. Enjoy it with your rugrats.

I know that you would never invalidate S8’s feelings. He sounds like a sweet boy. You’ll be able to explain things to him when he’s ready, and he will believe you and understand.

Why did this admission piss you off?

Because he knew he was going to be alone soon. The “admission” was about him. Add to that that I had once tried to get them to take responsibility for what they had done and they (he) chose to further manipulate and gaslight me. He had his chance and he made his choice. That deal was closed and it was a lose/lose.

I did show him a tiny bit of compassion in the end. My sister and I had him taken off of life support. He had a DNR clause, and we finally cornered a doctor and made him tell us point blank if he had a chance of survival. No was his answer. My dad’s favorite musician was Buddy Holly. He had a Walkman and cassette tapes at the house. Late that night I took the Walkman and a Buddy Holly tape to the hospital. He was in a coma, but I put the earphones on him, sat with him for a bit and left. He was dead the next morning.

Thanks for the article Learning2Thrive

I read the past 10 or so posts last night.

I was dumbstruck

for the first time in a very long time, and one of the few times ive been on this board.

What happened with my BPDx, feels like it pails into insignificance, it was merely a conduit to taking a trip back into time.

I guess with all that is going on in my life now and just making sense of the brainwash I came out of, forgive me for not being able to contribute too much here, its because this is "heavy" stuff, and I look up to you all for the courage to tackle it. I will too but in piecemeal fashion.

My thoughts were racing at the conundrum of a child being put into a position to ever have an iota of though in their mind that, their parent would be capable of killing them, given the circumstances.

If that isnt the establishment of control at its most highest level, I dont know what is, i dont know what Freud or anyone else has to say about it but, im completely flummoxed it just doesnt compute and reading it is profound. Im sorry you went through that JNChell, all I can say to it on a rational level; your not only safe now, but you carried that to a day where you could deal with it - and I hope - overcome it. Can I relate? Yes, but it was something I thought I could procrastinate away forever.

I will try to contribute and tackle that one, on the day I find the strength and courage that you display here in doing so.

I don't doubt your view of his motivations.  They being said,  what you did was very compassionate. 

As for my quote,  it seems a little black and white. Maybe,  "you might be punished for it" would be better.  I wouldn't want to throw too much at a little kid.  Like my buddy who thought that showing Saving Private Ryan was appropriate for his 7 year old "because he needs to know how much people sacrificed for freedom." 

Happy Saturday, Cromwell.

I empathize with you on how making this new step (realization) in your healing process can feel overwhelming. You’re a much smarter person than me, but I’d like to give you some friendly advice. Along the way, remember to be patient with yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Patience is a virtue and important in the healing process. Along with this, I’d like to point you to the right side of the board  |--->. When you feel up for it, do some reading over there. It might be helpful.


I guess with all that is going on in my life now and just making sense of the brainwash I came out of, forgive me for not being able to contribute too much here, its because this is "heavy" stuff, and I look up to you all for the courage to tackle it. I will too but in piecemeal fashion.

Your self awareness is healthy. It’s important that you go at your own pace with your healing. We’re always here for you when you feel like stopping by. I will definitely be seeing you on Detaching.

If that isnt the establishment of control at its most highest level, I dont know what is, i dont know what Freud or anyone else has to say about it but, im completely flummoxed it just doesnt compute and reading it is profound. Im sorry you went through that JNChell, all I can say to it on a rational level; your not only safe now, but you carried that to a day where you could deal with it - and I hope - overcome it. Can I relate? Yes, but it was something I thought I could procrastinate away forever.

Thank you for the compassion. There are children that have gone through much worse situations, and are at this very minute, than I have. Some don’t survive. It’s a sad truth and it needs to be told, IMHO, to create a higher level of awareness. You and I both know how much abusers/manipulators fear being exposed. I see this from the aspect of ”think globally, act locally”. I’m breaking my personal generational cycle with my Son. It ends here. Perhaps when I’ve healed enough, I can make the time to start volunteering in some way.

I will try to contribute and tackle that one, on the day I find the strength and courage that you display here in doing so.

We’ll be here. Bro hug.

Hello JNChell and everyone else  :hi:


thought I'd chime in, and come answer your original question. I don't know if that's still useful, as I can see that there have been conversation switches.

Still I want to contribute in saying that I don't feel guilty (anymore) about the NC, just to comfort and reassure people that such feelings are normal. The NC was initiated by my parents, but I would have taken the initiative myself if they hadn't.

There have been times that I wished my parents were dead. I felt very guilty about feeling that way. It's not that I wished harm upon them. It's just the constant worrying ... I wanted it to stop. Now I actually understand why I felt that way.

If I can be honest ... I'm glad I don't see my parents anymore. They don't have added value to my life as it is. I'm happier without them. Unless of course if they changed ... but I have accepted that they probably never will. Life can get lonely. But at least it's more calm than before.

x

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