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My W sent me an email requesting that we sit down to discuss future plans tonight. Does anyone that has been following my story have any thoughts on how I should handle the conversation?   Here are boundaries that I am contemplating:

No more talking about the affair
No more talking about needs/wants unless they are specific
Phone and internet will be cancelled if she is planning on keeping her phone blocked so I am unable to contact her
I will be visiting my grandparents for Thanksgiving and taking the kids with me.  (She claims that she must work the day before and after just as she claimed prior to our last visit but she ended up figuring out a way to go)
I am sure there are more.  I can and will follow through with all of the above boundaries. 

WC

Boundaries are best acted on, not discussed.

The first thing to do is to listen to what she has to say. Keep your Green Martian reality filter on - this takes practice. First you need to listen- what is she saying. Then pause- does this fit my reality or not? If not - then you don't have to address it.

Good answers to things you are not ready to discuss - or are to rattled up in the moment to discuss are " That sounds interesting, I need to think about this, let me think about this and get back to you. Do not agree to anything in the moment- you need time to think - these responses buy you time. If she pushes you for an answer- wash, rinse, repeat.


Conversation boundaries: master the art of drama free boring responses

Don't declare " I will not talk about the affair" " I will not talk about wants and needs" Instead ,don't enter a conversation but give answers that indicate you heard her, but don't perpetuate the discussion. This is how you enact your boundary.

" You have no idea how much you hurt me when you had that affair". " I understand it hurt you" Offer nothing back, no drama, just wash, rinse , repeat, and it goes no where.

" how could you do this to me?" " I understand it hurt you".

"what were you thinking?"  " I understand you are hurt" .

For needs and wants- let her speak, then make a non drama response.

" If you loved me you'd know what I want" " I understand you wish I knew what you wanted".
"I have needs you just can't meet"    "well that is unfortunate "


Action boundaries- "since you have blocked me on your phone, I will not pay the phone bill for it starting on October 1 ( you need to give her time to get a new account) . " angry fit to follow but don't react to her- if you make this statement, you have to follow through, otherwise it is an empty threat.

I have Thanksgiving plans- you are welcome to join me or not... .then keep the plans.

I would listen, ask unloaded clarification questions on actions (not feelings), and repeat back feelings (I feel unloved. <later> OK, so you feel unloved, that's not good). Say you want to think about and talk again on Thursday. Communicate, very simply, that you want things to be better for everyone (don't say how).

Then let's talk about it here.

Avoid engaging into the same old circular stuff that you both have lived in for so long.

Woodchuck, it is incredibly childish that you are blocked on her phone but she is resentful and this is how she shows it. When this series of talks is over, you will be better in you addressed the resentment, not the phone.

In the end if it boils down to "I happy to stay this way until the kids leave the house, you can say you are not and you can file for divorce." This is the path you are both on.


Try something different, listen with empathy (see video in tools section) and see if you can open the lines of communication a little. You might be surprised what agreeing with her might do.

This would be progress:
I can never trust you!
Well, I can see why you would say that. Member the trust is actually gone at this point and can't be fixed, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know either - it makes me sad".

Getting on the same side of anything would help now.

Skip makes a good point. It's not that you stonewall her with non drama responses. It's that the non- drama boring responses keep you from getting into the circular argument and you don't feed the drama with them. It gives you time to think while not escalating. I assume you will get asked a lot of emotional feelings and it helps to not throw everything "kitchen sinking" when both of you are feeling emotional. If she is then just listen.

WC, I agree with Notwendy on not discussing boundaries.  This leaves it open for discussion or negotiation.

That is all some really good stuff to think about!  I am sure that one topic that will come up is her job. As many of you know, her job was supposed to supplement our income when I retire shortly but she has pulled that plan and now her job is just that, her job.  There is zero financial support from her regardless of her working 30+ hours a week.  Her job has no value to me at all and quite honestly I have a problem with how she acts like her job is do important when she is the only one benefiting from it.  Obviously saying any of that is pointless but I am not sure what to say when her job does come up.  

Yes, it makes sense how I need to let her bring things up and communicate boundaries as she brings them up. 

No boundaries. No problem solving. No needs.

Just listen for the first discussion. Like in this video: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

Can you do that?  

It sounds like neither of you listen to each other.

Let her say it all... .

I work hard and its my money and I'm not sharing it!
OK, I understand what you are saying. I felt that way at times too. So are you are thinking we should settle the estate and have separate finances?
No. I just want to keep my money.
OK. So you want to keep all the marital assets as joint property and just separate out your salary for yourself. I understand.

You can come back the next time and say
OK, I'm OK with separating finances. I'm not so ok with the me sharing and you separating, you can understand that, right? So why don't we do a property settlement. You will have your money and property, car phone, furniture, and I'll have mine. We can refinance the house, you can buy my share (or I'kk buy yours) and the other can have a lease and pay rent.

Turn this around an give her what she wants and you can live with. Problem solve. She might go for this option, she might realize that its better to share. She might just say - no to everything. If so, you can file for divorce and start the process of documenting and getting your  6-12 month waiting period started.  Who knows, she might go down that path for four months and decide to share or she might want to divorce.

Either way, you are working with her and you are advancing things.

Phone boundaries don't solve anything.   

You've got several topics you think may be up for discussion- but you really don't know what she has to say. She might say something unexpected. I agree with Skip- just listen this time. If she brings up any of the topics you mentioned, it isn't going to be solved in one discussion. If you bring up the job issue in addition to whatever issue she brings up, you are in for a long night down that rabbit hole of circular discussions.

Listen first. You may even want to bring a piece of paper to make a list of the things she says- so you remember it. Tell her - I need to write these down as they are important to you and I want to be sure I address them, but I don't think I can do it all at one time. I first want to hear what you wish to discuss.

Nothing needs to be agreed on or resolved. There isn't any use in arguing. Just hear her out and try to self soothe and not react if she says things that upset you.

The job and money issue is one to be discussed later on its own. The issues she wants to bring up are likely things she wants. The job and keeping her money are things she wants. It's you that wants this to change. She isn't likely to want to hear it in a discussion focused on what she wants. Hear her out first.

 

She was asleep when I got home and ‘too tired’ to talk. 

Well now you have instructions for/if/when she does talk to you.

Most disappointing Page 2 of a thread ever

I honestly doubt your W was really too tired (unless she had worn herself out psychologically thinking about the upcoming conversation). Assuming you want to have the conversation, you could try encouraging her (We still need to have that conversation you asked about, when would you like to do it?). I wonder if she wants you to say something like that, or if she was actually trying to "bottle" out of the conversation altogether and hope you would forget about it. Clicking Send on an email is relatively easy, starting a difficult conversation in the physical presence of the person is really hard. I have lately done this same thing and I had to set myself up for it with a commitment action close enough to the time of the conversation that I couldn't back out (the glitter thing). Having the best part of a day between clicking Send and you coming home might well have been enough time for the anxieties to come back in and take over and make her avoid the hard thing. Maybe if you make it your thing as well by encouraging her and setting a time, she will be able to go ahead with it.

BetterLanes x

Well I forgot some stuff that I needed for work today so I had to drive back home to get it this morning.  When I got home I asked her if she wanted to talk.  She said there was really nothing to talk about.  I asked her what she wanted to talk about as far as future plans.  She said that if we are getting divorced then we obviously would not be able to keep the house and the kids would most likely not be able to stay in the schools they are in so why should we continue living where we are living.  The unspoken message behind this was (in my opinion) a ploy to move closer to her family.  Anyone that has followed my story knows how that has gone down.  I told her that I intend to stay in the house that we are in and will do what I need to do to make end meet (legally and safely).  She then told me that she could not support my financial irresponsibility and used the shower removal as an example.  She felt like I just did my own thing without talking to her or considering her.  I simply told her that I was sorry she felt that way and asked for other examples.  She said that I would need to figure it out.  I asked her what she wanted.  She told me that she wanted me to be a kind person.  I replied, 'ok'.  She then said she wanted me to be a 'good husband'.  Again, I just said 'ok'.  She then stated that she could not make me a kind person or a good husband.  I responded with, 'that is true'.  She told me that she wanted to just continue living parallel as we have been.  I asked her what she meant by that and she said she just wanted to keep things the same, aside from she was going to become as independent as possible and was planning on moving her phone to a different company.  I asked her if that meant that she was not going to contribute financially to the monthly bills.  She stated that she contributes plenty even though she does not contribute financially.  I told her that if we were going to be room mates that we needed to divide expenses somehow, this is how a room mate setup normally works.  She told me that all I care about is money.  I told her, 'ok, I don't agree but we don't have to agree'.  She then told me that all I want from her is sex and the money/sex scenario that we are in makes her feel like a prostitute.  I told her that I didn't just want sex but that it must be horrible to feel that way.  In reality, we haven't had sex in over a month and the last time we had any kind of intimacy that was enjoyable/fulfilling was many months ago.  I did not voice any of this as it would not be productive.  

She then walked out and said that she needed to go to work.  

I became emotional at that point (frustrated).  I should have just walked away.  I told her that if this is how things are going to be then it would be best for us to work towards a divorce.  She told me to go ahead and do that.  She then told me that she needs to be respected and included in every financial decision that is made.  I told her that there were a lot of things that need to be addressed before that happens and that I don't feel like I am respected by her as a human being much less her partner.  

She grabbed her purse and walked out the door.  

I am angry with myself and I am angry with her.  I am tired of my thoughts/feelings/needs not even being an issue of discussion.  I really do not think that I am capable of handling this kind of relationship in a healthy way.  

I know that I am a kind person.  That does not mean that I am always kind, no one is, but I will go out of my way to do anything for anyone, including her.  I know that I do my best to be a good husband.  Am I always a good husband?  No, but I do try to give it my best.  Am I always financially responsible?  No, but I do try and I think that I have done a very decent job of providing for my family over the last 20 years.  I feel like I am nothing but a piece of crap to her and I am very tired of feeling that way.  

I do feel like I was able to maintain the conversation this morning much better than in the past but I do not think it is sustainable.  I cannot completely deny myself and who I am just because she is not capable of seeing or appreciating who I am.

WC

I have to say that I was blown a way with how this conversation was unfolding in the beginning. My read on it is that she was talking and you were listening and it was an effective exchange... .not what you would want to hear... .but a start. She is shut down as you are - remember Gottman - neither can really talk about things without zinging each other. The fight is everything.

It almost feels like she is shutting you down and denying you on the financial end the same way that she felt shut down over the house/move. Is that possibly what is happening here.


As we talked yesterday, taking her comments away from the conversation would be a good way to avoid being reactive to her digs. You two remind me of a hockey game where one player (her) is trying to draw the other player into a fighting penalty (you).

When you say "I cannot completely deny myself" are you referring to the need to fight back verbally?

The house/move may have something to do with it, however, money has always been a sticking point with her.  She has hid money since we were first married.  She may very be trying to make me 'fail' financially and then offer her assist with the contingency of moving.  The difference is that I was open to moving until she had a meltdown over me asking my brother about how a particular house was constructed.  Due to the history of conflict with FOO, I decided that it would be best to not move and potentially have more problems.  This was a boundary that I set and not up for discussion.  She did not like that.  The difference between the move and her contributing financially is, in my opinion, not contributing financially when you are working regularly is quite rude and disrespectful.  She claims that she is not contributing to my financial irresponsibility but that does not hold any water.  If we were in fact room mates and we had shared the bills, each person covering their portion of the expenses has nothing to do with the financial responsibility/irresponsibility of the other person.  That would only be a factor if someone was failing to meet their obligations because of their financial choices.  To put it bluntly, it is a lame excuse. 
When I say that I cannot deny myself, I am not referring to fighting back.  I am referring to having my needs met.  Each and every want/need that I have voiced has been invalidated and purposefully unmet.  Things such as a simple post-it note saying 'I love you' is not a valid need according to her.  I have spent years denying myself my needs by telling myself I deserve it for how I hurt her with the affair.  There is no end in sight and to make it worse, anything, and yes, I mean anything that I try to do to meet her needs is also invalidated.  She refuses to tell me what her wants or needs are and yet I continue to try and all I get back is that I am doing it all out of selfishness and she does not love me.  I cannot continue that way.  I cannot continue to deny myself my needs.  I need to feel some kind of validation of some sort or nothing at all.  I cannot continue to handle to constant invalidation.  I believe I deserve to have basic 'needs' met.  Why is a 3 word note invalid?  It is not as if I am telling her I want a 3 page love letter every day or I want her to engage in some immoral activity etc.  3 words on a sticky not and I am not worth that, let alone anything else.  As I told her this morning, I don't feel like I am even respected as a human in her eyes.  She demands this unquestioning respect but shows absolutely none in return.  I could name several 'basic' needs but this one really seems the most basic and hurts that I am not worth that.

She also asked for my 12 month plan moving forward.  She trashed the plan that we had made and had in place for years.  Why would I trust her with telling her what my plan is now?  So she can sabotage it?  My response to her request was simply that I am going to do whatever I need to do to make ends meet.  I really wish I could just turn off having any kind of desire for her.  I wish I could just shut off my heart and move on. 


My next step that I have planned is to buy a proper bed as the one that I have been sleeping on has made it impossible to sleep due to back issues that I have.  I am sure that when I have a mattress/base delivered that I will get an earful for being financially irresponsible.  I have half a mind to tell her what I am doing and half a mind to just do it.  The best sleep I have had in the last several months was the one night that I had a sleep study.  I have not slept well in months and it is really starting to take a toll.

  I know all this mess seems crazy and probably somewhat unbelievable.  I wish is was not real.  I guess the bottom line is if I could determine what her wants and needs were and could have mine met at least in part, I would keep trying but she seems determined to keep us in this position where none of my needs are valid and I am incapable of meeting her needs.


WC

Technically, could she see this as doing to you, what you have done to her... .you made a unilateral boundaries ultimatums on money you earned... .she is making unilateral ultimatums on money she earns.

I don't know how this all emerged (I have some idea) but your two are deeply in the fourth stage of communication breakdown and unless that changes pretty quick, there may be no possible recovery here.  I say may, as that point may have been crossed.

As an outsider looking in, it seems like you both want to stay together and blame the relationship struggles on each other rather than enter into a "fix or quit" process.

I've been her for a few years and watch a number of these situations end in very high conflict divorce.

Making a unilateral decision on the house is a big deal. And affair is a big deal. Her extended passive aggressiveness is a big deal.

You guys are locked in battle. It's hard to read... .I feel really sad for your family, WC.

I guess I don't quite see it that way.  Until recently (6 months or so), I made sure she had several hundred $$ available at all times.  I never questioned what she spent it on.  I stopped that in response to the constant, 'I don't want/need/ anything from you'.  Additionally, even if I make decisions about how the money I make is spent, it still does not negate that a very large portion of it goes to paying for monthly expenses for everyone.  Do I have a say in whether or not that happens?  Technically, yes but if I decide to not pay, I face consequences.  She has absolutely zero financial responsibilities and has full control over every cent she makes.  It is really not about the money as much as it is the heart/attitude.  I have no problem paying for everything.  What I really have a problem with is the attitude of entitlement etc.  I have a problem with being told over and over and over that she doesn't need me for anything or want me to do anything for her and tells me this over devices I provide for her.  What kind of person does that?  I have provided a life where she has never HAD to work and has been able to stay home with the kids as she has desired.  I have had little to no say in how the kids are raised or how the house is kept or really much of anything other than how finances are spent.  The finance realm seems like the last frontier for her to have total control, which I believe is her end goal.  There is no respect for me providing the best I can and honestly doing a decent job I believe. 


As far as blame goes, I believe that I take responsibility for my 'contributions' to our troubles.  I also believe that I am the ONLY one that is taking any responsibility.  She continues to tell me that I am THE problem that I need to change.  Am I part of the problem?  Most definitely.  I have also been completely open to hearing what needs to be changed and there has been radio silence or hearing that I need to figure it out combined with her saying that she does not need to change, that I deserve everything I get with how she treats me. 

Really, it seems like the only real 'option' is wiping the slate clean across the board and starting over as if we just met but I don't see that as possible with how she holds onto everything and needs absolute control.

It would help me, I think, if you would show me that you understand what I'm saying and say that you are fine with it. I feel like you are not hearing me, so I say it in a different way.

1. Do you see how, from her perspective, she could legitimately see you as using power and control to suppress her? Do you see the connection between having an affair, unilaterally vetoing a house/relocation near family, ending her allowance, and threatening to take her off the phone account unless she meets your demands could appear to her (and her friends, family) as a long history of power and control on your part.

2. I'm not saying that you are alone and at fault for your family problems, or that you didn't work hard, sacrifice, and put food on the table, buy clothes, cars, vacations, etc. I think we all believe that you have.

The two paragraphs above can both be true. They are not mutually exclusive.

She is living in paragraph #1. You have an affair and not only was she betrayed, she was financially trapped. She wants to move... .but she is not a peer, you veto that ("boundary")... .you give her an allowance (an taketh away when she does not treat you right).  Your boundary ultimatum list about are all power demands; no more talking about "A", not more talking about "B", financial punishment (phone), etc. To her, this money she is earning now is likely her independence from this power/control. This is the "bad husband" she is rebelling against. She has years of resentment and is not going to give you anything; love, sex, cash, satisfaction, etc. In this last conversation you had with her, you listened (great), but then you exerted power.  Do you see how she could feel this way. I'm not saying she is 100% justified or that you are bad, I'm just asking if you see that she could legitimately feel this way?

I think, from all that you have said, this is what is going on with her. And your instincts (I'm going to cancel the phone, or I lost it) are all feeding and growing this narrative. If you do the the covert separation of finances, quietly setting up a divorce, it will seem like more the same.

From a psychology point of view, passive aggressiveness is how people respond when they feel bullied.  Again, I'm not justifying, just explaining the human nature at play.

You are living in paragraph #2. You made a mistake, paid your dues, and want to have a reasonably normal family/home... .and she is sabotaging that at every juncture, etc.

Neither of you want to end the marriage, and there is far more invested in the battle than a solution.

Do you see this?

Skip,
First I want to say that I really do appreciate you taking time to try explain things.  I do see how the two paragraphs can be true at the same time.  I guess the sticky points for me are regarding me trying to control or suppress her.  I am not saying that is not how she sees it, she is free to see it however she wants to but at the end of the day, decisions that have made, excluding the move, are directly and solely related to her stating over and over that she does not want me or need me to do anything for her.  In my mind, it is the same as dealing with a rebellious child saying that they don't need you.  I kept giving and giving in spite of her 'tantrums' but finally had enough and decided to let her experience what she was saying.  It was not to control her but more to stop enabling or something along those lines.  None of the decisions that I made or have contemplated to make are a result of her refusing to see things my way or do/not do something that I want.  It is all related to her 'not needing' me.  If she doesn't need me, ok, then after a certain amount of time, I stop giving.  I cannot explain how frustrating it is to have her use things that I provide for her to tell me that she doesn't want/need me to do anything for her.  Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I don't see any of my actions as control based but more just giving her what she states she wants.  With all that said, I would handle things at least somewhat different if she was not working and making her own money.  I am not the kind of person that is going to deprive her of access to anything if I am the sole source of things.  Any 'threat' that have made has been tied directly to her saying she doesn't need/want me to do anything for her.  The only other option I see that I have is to continue to take that verbal/emotional abuse and continue to provide everything for her.
As far as the move, that is a bit more complicated.  Again, I can see that she could take it as control and in a sense it really is but not out of selfishness.  I was initially excited about moving and being closer to family.  We have spent the last 15 years thousands of miles away from family.  As soon as she had her meltdown over me asking my brother a simple question though, all the danger flags went up due to all the family drama in the past.  The family drama combined with the moving stress seemed like way to much of a risk to our family (me, W and kids).  Our troubles started with FOO and I did not want to have those problems resurfacing be our demise.  Could she look at it as bullying?  Sure.  I have explained what my mindset is and that our family is my greatest concern. 

I completely agree with you that there has been little invested in a solution.  Is this due to my approach?  Possibly/probably in part.  However, I have asked/begged for specifics regarding what she needs for years and she has refused to tell me, instead telling me to figure it out.  I cannot successfully work on a solution myself.  I have proved that over the last several years.  To me, her actions tell me that she does not want a solution. 


WC

OK. So maybe is rebelling against control and bullying, but you stand by your actions because they were justified responses and without malice.


If it was me (it is not), I'd might totally rethink the approach.


Maybe she has already told you and you are not able to hear it.  I have had that problem in relationships from time to time - I get caught up in my own emotional bias.

It's something to think about. I hope this helps at some point.

Hang in there WC.

Woodchuck,
I think it's worthwhile reading through the first part of your conversation with your wife, as you described it to us.  I broke it out into "She said" and "I responded" paragraphs so it's a bit easier to see the exchange.

If the conversation had ended when she was ready to leave, I would have said that you were off to a good start.  While many of the things she said were painful to hear and revealed that she sees "reality" differently than you do, it was a start at communication.  Yes, it was one sided.  It was all focused on what she thinks/feels/needs/wants.  Some of the things she said were probably intended to be hurtful.

But what if you had allowed her to go to work having been heard with no rebuttal?  What if she left you feeling that you had listened to her and hearing her was what mattered to you?

I have been in your shoes, or at least very similar shoes.  I reached the same stalemate point with dBPDxh, and in hindsight I can see the point where I was no longer willing to be the one to break that stalemate.  I believe that I was justified in standing my ground, but I also know what it cost.  I no longer carry many regrets about how I left my marriage, but I do feel like there were times when I caused myself unnecessary pain by trying to be heard by someone who was unable to hear me.

There's no guarantee that your wife will be able to get to a point of being able to hear you, but I think that the best chance of getting her there is to hear her first and give her time to know what it feels like to be heard.  It's not going to be fair.  It may not result in her feeling any safer or more willing to reciprocate.  But there's a chance.  How much of your time is worth that chance?  Can you give it 90 days?  Can you go 90 days without asking her to hear how she's hurt you?  How she's not meeting even your most basic needs?  Can you come here and vent all your frustrations so your wife has some space to feel heard and possibly stop seeing you as the enemy?  If the end result is that nothing changes and you end up getting a divorce, what will the cost have been?

Now I'll be honest that if someone suggested something like that to me in February of last year, I would have said it was impossible.  I was barely holding on and I saw no hope and I didn't have the strength to hear and not be heard in return.  You may be there.  In that case, I have some thought of how to start to look at your other options. 

BG

there were times when I caused myself unnecessary pain by trying to be heard by someone who was unable to hear me.

There's no guarantee that your wife will be able to get to a point of being able to hear you, but I think that the best chance of getting her there is to hear her first and give her time to know what it feels like to be heard.  It's not going to be fair.  It may not result in her feeling any safer or more willing to reciprocate.  But there's a chance.  How much of your time is worth that chance?  Can you give it 90 days?  Can you go 90 days without asking her to hear how she's hurt you?  How she's not meeting even your most basic needs?  Can you come here and vent all your frustrations so your wife has some space to feel heard and possibly stop seeing you as the enemy?  If the end result is that nothing changes and you end up getting a divorce, what will the cost have been?


BG, this is brilliant.

BG-
I appreciate all your insight.  Honestly, I have no idea what the 90 days would do.  If we were not approaching 2 decades of the same crap, I might see things a bit different.  I can see how I have caused myself unnecessary pain in many ways.  I want to say that I don't care about fair but I don't think that is entirely true.  I believe what I care about most is a way forward and that has never happened in the entire time that we have been together.  Skip mentioned that maybe she has told me what she needs and I think that he is right.  What she needs is total control over everything and has a reason for why she should have control.  There is no way of working as a team with her if I have a different view or opinion on anything. 

She asked me to show her a budget so I spent time today and drew up a rough budget of what our expenses are.  When I showed her, she balked at the numbers and told me that was completely unsustainable when I retire.  For some reason, she thinks that I cannot work when I retire.  I am not even 40 yet.  I mentioned looking into working for UPS a few years ago and she told me that I would be too 'broken' to do something like that.  There is absolutely no basis to any of that.  I can work 60 hours a week if I need to.  Along with that, we are in probably the most dense area for government jobs in the country where I could start out making what I am making now in addition to my retirement pay but she doesn't listen to any of that.  As she looked at the budget, she asked me how much of the money that was spent was spent on her.  My first reaction in my head was "WT*, seriously?"  Instead I told her that if we broken down the basic expenses down the middle, the number would be X.  She told me that was not fair in part because the kids used part of the house, utilities etc.  Again, in my head it was "What the heck, seriously?"  I told her that the kids are not responsible for covering any expenses.  She went on to tell me that it was still not fair because I take up more space in the house with my tools so it should not be split down the middle.  I gave up at that point.  For one, it is not just about the money.  What options did I give her by providing enough to live on one income?  She wanted to be a stay at home mom.  I was able to give her that opportunity, yet she takes credit for that because she isn't a 'big spender'.  That combined with her idea that I view her as a prostitute in the sense that I provide for her in exchange for sex.  If that is the case, it has got to be some of the most expensive sex out there.  I am sorry but it is all just crazy.  It is really really difficult to listen in the manner required when I am working my a** off to do whatever I can and it always being wrong. 
Going back to the 90 days, it would be easy I believe to not focus on how she has hurt me or how she does not meet my basic needs if I could just get something right and get on track if that makes sense, however that seems impossible.

I did tell her that I intended to buy a new mattress for my room.  She basically told me that she expected nothing less because I just like spending money.  I believe what needs to happen in order to make real progress is for her to be able to communicate small things that she needs and then accept that an effort was made to meet that need instead of tearing every effort apart and finding every negative aspect of it that can be found.

WC

As another example of her unquenchable need for control, as I believe I have stated in the past, she has blocked me from texting or calling her, however, she continues to text me, knowing full well that any response I give will be blocked.  It is just another way that she can 'control' things and at least to me, it is disturbing.  Blocking someone is an obvious attempt to control but blocking someone and then continuing to communicate in that way is a few steps past that and more taunting in a way

Regarding the texting, I’d say that I was no longer planning on reading her texts since there’s no opportunity to respond back.

The inequity needs to be addressed in my opinion.

I agree with Cat about the texts. The two of you are starting to sound like War of the Roses. Calculating how much square footage each one takes in the house to calculate expenses. Even room mates have to be able to communicate both ways with each other and not be too nitpicky about shared space or it becomes a difficult room mate situation.

IMHO considering the content of the discussion you had, I wonder if any of it is productive. It seemed to be kitchen sinking resentments and that isn't going to get resolved. Both of you have them- understandably but a discussion won't resolve them and all they do is dig the divide between you deeper.

If you are serious about dividing the home and expenses then- I find that heated- emotional types of discussions ( such as expenses ) are sometimes better done in the presence of a counselor to keep the situation from getting circular and going off track. If you were really at a point of divorce- with each having a lawyer- that discussion- division of expenses- would be between lawyers but you aren't there yet. Also, with her in victim mode, probably no division is going to feel fair to her- you may be looking at numbers, she may be looking at feelings. How much money did you spend on me=how much do you care about me? You can't put this in numbers.

The "you like to spend money" comment after you discussed the mattress is a barb. It's bad feelings/resentments. Leave these alone.

Own your reasons and don't blame. Use "I " statements when possible instead of "you".  "I would like to communicate with you but I can not do this by phone, so please discuss things with me in person. " Do you see how this is different from " since you blocked me, I won't respond" statement even though they mean the same thing?

There is still a lot of emotion between the two of you. She may say she is done with the marriage but she still sounds very hurt. So do you. I think stopping these kinds of hostile "let's break things up" plans might ease the tension. They don't solve anything.

As to your own financing- considering the situation, I don't think your plan to rely on income from her when you retire is a solid one. I can say this from personal experience in how my own BPD mother handles money- it is emotional for her and it has strings attached. You are still young and it seems you are in a position to find a job. It would put you on more secure financial grounds for yourself. I know it isn't your original plan, but it may also not be forever. It may just not be wise to take a cut in finances when you are having this conflict with her salary. If she sees is as all hers, you can't change that. This is adding to your conflict in the moment. If the two of you were to divorce, all salaries would be considered in a settlement, but you are not there yet and neither of you are able to agree on her salary.

Thank you for the input on the texting issue.  I think that is probably the best way to handle things.

I think I need to clarify a few things.  I am not planning on relying on her to assist with anything financial.  As soon as she decided she was pulling the plug on what our plan had been, I lost all faith and trust in her to support financially.  She could completely change her tune today and it would not affect how I think/feel.  I do not believe that she is dependable and therefore will not put myself in a position where I need to rely on her for any expenses. 
I have already secured a job (mostly).  It is contingent on passing a background check, drug test and physical.  All three of those are very easy with my background.  I also have applications pending with several other jobs as I am not going to put all my eggs in one basket.  I have not communicated any of this to her as I expect that should could somehow try to sabotage my efforts or at the very least find fault with any job I do find.  It is my opinion that with how she handled things, she lost her option to have input on what I do to make ends meet.  The last thing I need is to involve her only to have her inject negativity/doubt into the process.  It is already stressful enough.  Her salary is just that, her salary.  I don’t ask nor do I receive any input whatsoever as to how her salary is handled.  I told her last night that if she wants to work together on finances then she can start contributing to the pot since she is earning a paycheck.  She balked at this.  Along with that that, she has stated many times that she is putting all of her money aside as a cushion for when I retire but I have zero faith in that as well. 
Regarding the War of the Roses, I would like to clarify that I am not condoning calculating square footage.  To me, that is completely childish, especially when you have the mentality that the kids are somehow responsible for their portion.  At the core, it is not about the money.  It is about the heart.  I don’t need her to contribute financially and I don’t want her to contribute resentfully.  She is of the mindset that she contributes by taking care of cleaning the house and while I don’t agree with that, that is her reality.  My reality is that everyone pitches in and helps out but all she can see is what she does.  The same goes for clutter around the house.  All she sees is everyone elses clutter and somehow thinks that she is organized when in reality she is responsible for just as much clutter as anyone else (Aside from maybe our daughter, we should have named her Dropsy... …).  The point I am trying to make is I am not trying to nor am I interested in nitpicking and dividing things ‘fairly’.  Nothing is ever going to be fair.  What I am interested in is working together etc.  Hopefully that makes sense.


WC

Hey Woodchuck,

Sounds like you're very much caught up int he washing machine, your desire to respond and correct the narrative prompts you to perpetuate the guerrilla warfare of she hits and runs, you chase and try and get your shot in to make sure the balance is fair. As the others have suggested, what if you accepted that things aren't going to be fair, things are actually going to be downright unfair. The texts... .she wants to hit you then run back to cover and slam the door on you. You come back and hammer on the door even though it's locked and bolted... .just let her offload all over you, stand head to toe in a puddle of her verbal vomit and diarrhea, listen, say very little other than ask for clarification and then when she wants to run to cover... .let her go.

Why? You might be asking. When she runs to cover she thinks she is returning to safety. she thinks she is returning to the safety of avoiding the guilt and shame you place on her with your accusations and your comments... .if you make accusations, the transaction becomes about what you accused her of or how you shouted. If you ask questions/ask for clarification the transaction then becomes about the questions/clarifications and her lack of answers. She runs to safety but she can't escape her own head. She runs to safety and instead of returning to base with thoughts of how horrible you are she sits in her emotional bunker ruminating about her inability to respond to your questions/clarifications. She wants to return to the bunker with feelings of victimhood... .you are not allowing that.

Making a pledge to not negatively engage in conversations about _____ for 3m:

- Moving
- Her contributing financially
- The Phone and her blocking you
- The affair

Forget any ideas of _____ for 3m :

- Working together
- Resolving anything
- The future
- Aspirations
- Dividing things

By all means be present, by all means acknowledge, by all means listen. But make an active choice to allow her to do her thing, ask for clarifications and then let her run back to base. She is continuing along the same boring drama filled road that your marriage has been going along for years... .You are taking the right fork. This right fork sucks, A LOT in the short term... .HOWEVER... .whilst you allow her to return to base with evidence that YOU are the perpetrator, she will only think about YOUR behaviour. Starve her of that evidence (rightly or wrongly) and she will turn the proverbial gun on herself... .don't get me wrong, she will kick and scream to get the 'evidence' she craves, but she can do that if she likes.

This is not taking the sanctimonious high road, this is not being passive, this is not continuing along the same road, this is conscious, this is proactive, this is tough, this involves thinking before you open your mouth and ONLY saying ANYTHING which is additive to the relationship. If you are in any doubt whether it's a positive or negative thing to say... .say nothing. Be the master of avoidance. Suck the emotion out of the situation.

My 2p... .

Enabler-
I think that you are spot on with everything.  What I have struggled with is how to go about letting her go.  How do I stop 'caring'.  As hard as I have tried, I can't seem to get there.  I agree that it would be best but I don't know that I have the tools to go about doing that. 

WC

Woodchuck, I think you misunderstand me, this is NOT about caring any less, this is not about letting go. This about consciously and purposefully taking a different route. I’m not suggesting this route involves making unlateral ‘us’ decisions like “I’ve decided we’re going to move to Alaska and live in an iglu”, in fact the opposite, I’m suggesting you stop trying to push her to move forwards instead take your own route at each juncture. Have you ever been for a walk in the woods with the kids, lots of different paths, you know the way, they think they know the way. Would you stand there and argue the toss with them or just walk down the correct path? I personally would walk down the correct path, listen to them scream and shout, call me an idiot and then keep walking with an eye on them to make sure they follow... .SHOW THE WAY don’t tell her the way.

The way is less conflict, the way to less conflict is less arguing, the way to less arguing is one of you not invalidating the other one, the way to less invalidation is more acknowledgement, empathy and hearing and less retort, accusations, corrections.

Like all good war movies, accept you’re dead... .now what you going to do? The narrative doesn’t matter anymore, who’s right or wrong doesn’t matter any more, the outcome matters. She doesn’t want to listen to you, blocking you is her way of telling you that. All she wants to do is tell... .let her, soak it up, get a punch bag, come here and rant about how unfair it all is, but telling someone who doesn’t want to hear is fruitless... .so stop. Not everything she ‘tells’ you is fact, most things she tells you she feels is true. Listen to her truth, all of it, then filter it.

Enabler-
The scenario you describe of taking a hike in the woods is a great analogy and identifies where I am stuck.  I think, using that analogy, I am not so much concerned about 'being right' as much as I am about the screaming combined with the 'I don't know' responses when I ask which way she thinks we should go.  Those are the things that I am referring to having to stop caring about about, especially the screaming and tantrums telling me that I am going the wrong way.  I need to figure out a healthy way to just let that go.

WC

Stop asking her what she wants. She probably doesn't know herself or it changes from day to day or moment to moment or the topic is so emotional for her she feels emotionally flooded by it.

I agree with Enabler- to just not discuss the hot topics. It goes no where. They will not be resolved by talking to each other. Why do you think lawyers handle divorces? Because even two people who don't have BPD can hardly talk about plans for dividing assets  and child custody in a fair way- due to the emotions involved. You two are not at the divorce stage but these topics are emotional, heated, triggering and full of resentments for both of you. Neither of you can speak about them without becoming emotionally flooded.

IMHO it is a good thing that you have found ( or are seeking ) employment.

Don't get into discussions on the "value" of taking care of the home and child care. This is also emotional and influenced by perception. My BPD mother was a "homemaker" and didn't do much housework as far as I could tell, yet she felt things were very unfair and burdened by this position. During my time as a SAHM, I did most of the house and kids work and as far as my H was concerned, I was living the life of luxury while he was working so hard. Neither of us could see the other person's perspective and neither can you or your wife. If it comes down to where a market value needs to be placed on that, let a lawyer do it.

A lot of what enabler says is diagrammed here:



You are getting good advice on how to diffuse the day to day conflict.

There appears to be a fundamental values conflict driving a lot of this, and if there is going to be substantial improvement, that will need to be addressed at some point - and if she has BPD traits, the only hope of getting that process started is you.

Hang in there Wc.

Dear @Woodchuck,
I am so sorry you are locked in the “catch 22” situation. Reading through your thread, I could see a lot of longing for kindness, love, approval and intimacy coming from you. I could also see how hard you are trying, and feeling discouraged. It takes a lot of commitment, emotional maturity and high emotional iq to have a relationships with a BPD person. From the verbal exchange you described, I could see a lot of mistrust and need to punish you for the affair that is coming from your wife. I could also see that inadvertently, her words hit home. It’s interesting, that what hurts us the most, are the words or thoughts that reflect our inner narrative. In other words, the negative image or fears we have somewhere deep inside, when they are being reflected back to us, coming back from BPD place, they are equvant to a death by one thousand paper cuts.
Adding to what has been suggested by other members , I also encourage you to seek your own inner forgiveness. Somehow, I’m sensing the fact that you have unconsciously transferred the blame of adultery to her treatment of you, thus justifying it to yourself. A very important part of healing is to accept the fact that it was you, your actions and choices that lead to this. As we are all responsible for our actions. I too, struggle with responsibility for my own actions, words and reaction towards my unpeg. He may have as sure as hell started it, but I’m the one who had the choice of taking the higher, more mature road, instead of proving a point to someone who can’t connect the dots. You can’t prove anything to anyone, let alone person with a BPD. They will never accept responsibility for the pain and turmoil, what they will remember is the way you have reacted. Accepting the fact that you have made a mistake, isn’t equivalent to self punishment or self hate, it’s the radical acceptance of life as it is. You are not your actions, repeat after me. “I am not my actions, they are mistakes I made along the way. I am a good person, worthy of love, loveable, loving and loved. I made a mistake. My actions were wrong, I did not see the pain or considered the full consequences of my actions. I learn my lesson, I want to be better.” You have made a mistake, and you have caused a lot of pain to another person. When you stop fighting the reality and accept all the pain, sit with it and come to terms with it, it will be the ultimate begging of healing for your family. Until you can accept and process your own pain, you can’t see through hers. Being a non BPD means being emotional leader and caretaker of the relationships. Your wife is doubting, emotionally viotile and hurt. She can’t begin to heal and stop punishing you, until you will accept the fact that you have violated one of the most fundamental vows of the marriage (unless you had an unorthodox arrangement regarding your fidelity). She will remind you of that, it will be uncomfortable. As someone said to me recently: “have a sit, and let’s get comfortable with the uncomfortable.”
What I see is a man, who is trying to make amends for his mistake, you think you have been punished enough, paid your dues and now you want to move on. You also want her to put it behind her, being emotionally receptive, intimate and display her love for you. You want her unconditional love and acceptance. As most people on this forum do.
Putting any relationships back together, when they are so deep into a cycle of destruction is a long process and requires ultimate comment, with no guarantee of ever getting it to the point of a full recovery.
I hope you can sit on your pain, accept and process your feelings, become emotionally stronger and see your family out of this. I’m not suggesting anything, but from my experience, it takes a lot of hard work to fix things, it’s much easier to break it apart, less energy invested. However, when you are alone and your wife’s words are playing in your mind on repeat, she isn’t your harshest judge, it’s you. We are all human and programmed to make mistakes, some larger then others. The key to becoming less emotionally vulnerable, even if it will not work out at the end, is to accept your own flaws and work towards self forgiveness and doing better by her, or anyone else that you will end up with. I wish you strength

WC, you are an adult, a mature mentally healthy adult. You make choices based on evidence, information and experience, sometimes those choices are wrong and sometimes they are right... .that’s life. The choices I am suggesting you make are not economic, they don’t involve making wholesale family decisions, hell they don’t even involve you making choices for other people... .they are choices for you. The choice is to not participate in conflict. Some conflict is productive, war can be fruitful if it brings about peace... .but this conflict is rhetorical, it has no momentum and is unproductive, it’s trench warfare. Someone has to stop it, someone has to swallow their pride, put aside right and wrong and look towards outcomes. YOU ARE THAT MAN.

I task you to seriously consider your core values, those values that you most likely live out daily with the checkout lady, the person who serves your coffee, the elderly man struggling with a shop door. My guess is you are kind, loving, caring generous in time but not in money (maybe money as well... .I’m personally tighter than a gnats chaff). You’ve lost these values with your wife, you can get them back of you choose to. It’s independent from her, she can cuss and critique as much as she liles. Be true to those values, stand up straight get that pride back, the pride she’s stripped you of/let her take. I talk a lot on the boards about armoury, the Roman centurions strength was as much about its ability to withstand attack as its ability to go on the offensive. It’s shield deflected arrows and spear. Soak up the attack.

Her path is her path, only she can decide that. Evidence tells you, you have no say in it.

Man hug comin’ at ya

Enabler

Notwendy-
I have always tried to validate her being a SAHM.  I have not been perfect at it but I do understand that it is a pretty thankless job with young children and can be quite lonely.  I don't view it as a 'luxury life'.  Even as recent as last night, when we were talking about finances, I gave both of us credit for where we are at.  It isn't just me, it is her as well.  We have both worked equally hard.  The work is not 'equal' and IMHO can really not be compared but the dedication and commitment etc is the same and that is how I try to look at things pertaining to the living situation that we have had until recently.

Skip-
I do need to focus on diffusing conflict.  It is way to easy for me to allow myself to be drawn in.

Snowglobe-
I appreciate your insight and I think you make some very valid points about forgiving yourself and working through things on my end.  I believe that I have done that.  I have forgiven myself and I have set boundaries to ensure that I do not make the same mistake again.  I also have taken 110% of the responsibility for my actions.  I have never even remotely suggested that any of my choices were her responsibility.  It does not matter what she was or was not doing, the choice was mine and mine alone.  I own it 110% and always have.  I have not and am not fighting the fact that I caused my W a great deal of pain.  I have written many letters acknowledging everything in excruciating detail.  I have had countless discussions/confessions with her with a counselor present acknowledging and taking responsibility for everything.  I have never wavered from that stance and I never will.  It is my view that I have patiently sat in this pain for over a decade and there has been zero movement towards making things better and to make it even 'worse' is things were like this prior to my affair so the pain that I/we are sitting in has been going on for 16+ years.  Before the affair, she had (and still does but is no longer the focus) major problems with my FOO.  It got to the point where she demanded that I tell that I would never talk to or see them again or she would leave.  I believe that I am quite emotionally strong and am getting stronger every day and I have put in years and years of work to make things better and nothing has been successful.  I do need to work on being less emotionally vulnerable and am slowly getting better at that.

Enabler-
What you point out as far as not participating in conflict is really where I need to focus.  It is and is going to continue to be extremely difficult.  As far as what kind of person I am, I am willing to go out of my way to be kind, courteous and helpful to just about anyone, including my W.  This goes for time and money.  I was going through the drive-thru to get a meal last week and decided to just give the cashier a $20 and told her to take care of the people behind me.  Why?  I don't know, the idea just popped into my head.  The somewhat humorous result was I only ended up getting half of what I ordered.  I don't care for one of the supervisors that I have at work, yet I offered to help him get his car fixed and spent a weekend working on it for him, not expecting anything in return.  I have spent weekends while my W is at work doing any housework that I know she doesn't like doing.  Those are just a few examples.  Am I God's gift to women?  No, I also have a less than generous and pleasant side if I am crossed the wrong way or enough times.  I think you are right in a way that I have lost those values with her because I have spent years following those values and received virtually nothing but nastiness in return.  I am beyond understanding what good comes from continuing to be the nice guy is going to do for anyone.  I would do almost anything for her, even if it meant silence in return, but the constant fault finding with anything and everything for years has just become too much.  I do understand that her path is her choice and I cannot change it.  The frustrating part about the 'path' that she is taking is just sitting and refusing to go anywhere.  Can I control that for her?  No.  I have sat here with her, in the pain and suffering trying patiently to allow her time to heal and over years and years, nothing has changed.  It is not healthy for anyone.  I believe it is time to go or get off the pot.  I will spend my energy not engaging in conflict as that is really a big downfall for me.

WC

I received an email from my W last night asking: "What is something non-physical/sexual that I can do that would make your life easier."


My first thought was to respond with, "leave" or "nothing" or "I have no interest in having any kind of physical interaction with you" or just ignoring it.  However, stopping and thinking about my response, I knew that none of those would be productive, let alone kind or anything good.  This morning, I replied back that I was not sure how to answer the question.  She replied that I could think about it and get back to her and that she appreciated the response.  The spot I am in now though is I don't want to answer the question.  99% of the time when she asks me what I want, she either does the opposite or makes sure that she doesn't do what I requested, so what is the point in even stating anything I want?  It seems like a passive way to control me in that if she knows what I want and can make sure that I don't get it, then she feels like she has control.  I understand that I could answer and tell her about what I would like and expect either nothing or the opposite to happen but still, what is the point?  Is there a listening aspect to this that I am missing?  In reality, I don't want her to do anything for me and there is really nothing that she could do that would make my life easier, at least not with the current mental state that she is in.


WC

OK, so you don't want to tell her what she could do that would be helpful to you.

And she doesn't want to tell you what would you could do to let her know you love her.

See the stalemate? Neither of you wants to be vulnerable to the other or indebted in any way.

Dear WC,
I can see the overt manipulation coming from your wife, she likely knows that you want to be held, caressed, told that you are loved and all is well. She knows you want those things but doesn’t want to offer them. To me, it seems that she is warming up and testing the waters. You are being hurt, again, since she doesn’t want to be physically intimate with you, so you passive- agressivwly fighting back.
You need to ask yourself a question; the same one @Skip asked me when I arrived here, and I pretty much made my choice right there and then. “Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?”. If you want to be right, then this is the hill you will die on, you are slowly participating in the decay of your marriage. Instead of pulling your affected partner upwards mentally, you are getting down on all fours and waiting for a miracle of her turning her ways.
I’m not a licensed therapist, yet, but I can tell you, if you continue down the same path, you will be left with nothing but regrets, ruines and heartache. You are also more likely to get yourself in identical predicament, unconsciously, in efforts to do better this time. You need to answer this question to yourself!
If you want to be effective, you will write back in a set method
S-support: “after much thinking and soul searching I want to thank you for thinking of me and my needs, even though you have so much pain and hurt to process
E- empathy:” majority of people in your situation would not be able to handle, let alone try to work through our issues
T-truth; but to be honest, there is nothing more I would love to do, then to hold you in my arms, to tell you how much I love you, your body, your souls, and feel us connect in the most intimate way I have ever connected with another human being. I understand that I may never have that again, but G-d, I would give up a lot for having another shot with you.

I think this is a good idea... .but maybe too much, too soon. I'd take a less personal baby step.


This is "victim-think". WC. Man to man, I'm throwing cold water on you. Be a strong man.

Victim think is the source of relationship drama. You need to stop this - whether you or staying or going. Read about te winners triangle her.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

When you feel like a victim, shift emotional gears to be a strong man with likeable vulnerability (not weakness, or neediness).

You did in the first half of you last conversation with her. That effort apparently reached her on some level after a few days.  Good! This is how it typically works.


Yes. It's on page 9 of "Communicating with a Wife for Dummies"  

She is inviting you to listen to her and offering a tiny little olive branch as a reward / incentive. She wants to sit down with you and trade a few small favors and see if that goes to the next step.

My suggestion is to ask her for something that she is inclined to do for you already (get a win / win under your belt) and ask her what she wants. If she says nothing, ask her to think about it and then you get back with her in a few days.

Do not lose your cool.

@WC,
You may not get why you want anytime soon, but you need to stop hurting her in your efforts to self protect. Accepting responsibility for your relationships starts with you. She is likely as affected as you are describing, and she is likely smearing you in emotional blackmail, yet, you are also standing there participating. Someone has to stop this cycle if you want to be effective. Being patient and consistent, is the only way to repair your relationships

“I would like you to tell me about your day every day when you/I return from work”

Kind
Loving
CARING
GENEROUS IN TIME AND MONEY

Basic connection comes from sharing experience. What’s important to her is important to you. No shooting for the stars, no utopia thinking, no wish we could make love for 10 hours on a bed of roses. You know things are REALLY BAD, she knows things are REALLY BAD, you’re telling her that you’re both on the same wavelength, you’re both burnt out and you both need to eat bread and milk before reaching for fois gras or sushi.

So what if she tries to use this to torture you, that’s her path, you are choosing a different path, you are showing her the way (since she’s asking).

Google ‘meadow report tony robbins’, true or not it made sense to me. Men don’t know where a gazelle is going to be so they don’t have to recall precise information, they just need to know how it was killed. Women need to come home to the village and report back precise information about where food / dangers / risks were on their foraging trips... .so the next person can go and get some the following day.

Give her the opportunity to give you her meadow report. She is not asking for analysis, you just have to listen as she downloads information.

I feel like there is some misunderstanding regarding the latest issue surrounding the email.  For starters, I have been 'here' many many times where she suddenly changes and is 'interested' in what I want/need only to flip the script as soon as she has that info, so it is very natural to be cautious IMHO.  It is not as is this is a first glimmer of 'hope' that I have never experienced.
With that being said, I do see the stalemate and that is why I answered the email I did and came here to think things through.  I am trying to break the stalemate in an effective way.  I feel that I answered the email in a 'boring' no combative or non instigating manner and the result seemed positive as she told me to think about it and thanked me for replying.  I did not jump in and answer it with the first thought or any of the first 10 thoughts that came to my head.
I have absolutely no problem with her cutting out physical things.  I do not feel safe (emotionally) being close to her that way.  I cannot count the number of times I have reached out just to give her a hug and have been rejected.  I feel like the way I have handled this is very much a demonstration that I am trying to be effective and not worried about being right.  I appreciate the SET method that Snowglobe outlined.  The only issue with that is the Truth part of that where I would address the physical 'desires'.  For one, at this point that is not truth but even if it was, if I addressed things that way she would have a hay day with me 'not respecting her' and pushing for physical touch.  I know, I have been there.  I am not concerned about what I want and I am not sure how I am coming across that way.  The idea of telling her that I want to hear about her day is intriguing but I don't know that I can really commit to that under the current circumstances.  I guess the bottom line is, I am trying to be effective, not right and I am trying to return communication in the best way possible.  That is why I mentioned it here.  I see the stalemate and am trying to effectively break it and it seems like I am not able to communicate effectively here either.

WC
Snowglobe

I am a bit confused and it is probably mostly due to my lack of understanding.  I know in previous conversations, things have been discussed about not falling for the charm of a PwBPD as they turn it on when they want something etc.  I guess this is why I have been cautious about answering this question.  I have leaned into the charm in the past and it only lasts until she gets what she wants.  The 'charm' continued this evening when she came to me and told me that she was willing to unblock me from her phone as long as I promised to not say anything negative via texting or expect her to answer within a certain time frame.  I see two things here.  The first being, this is coming after I let her know that I would be removing her phone from my account on Oct 1.  She had told me that she was already planning on moving her phone to a different provider.  Now, I am assuming that she really didn't have any plans and she is trying to smooth things so I won't follow through with what I told her I was planning on doing.  I just kept things 'boring' in my response and said 'ok'.  It may have been better to key in on it being a great idea to remove the negativity from our conversations but I did not think about that until after she had left the conversation.  I think what some may not understand here is I have had virtually zero boundaries with her for 18 years.  More or less whatever she has demanded, she has received.  Whatever she asked asked for has been given to her if at all possible.  I have allowed myself to be a doormat for her.  I am not saying that as a 'victim'.  It has been my choice and a very bad choice and I am working on changing that.  I have allowed her to treat me like crap and then act like nothing happened.  I have allowed her to be controlling and have not set limits on how far that goes.  It seems to me that feeding into how she is responding now is just more of the same thing that has gone on for years and I am not ok with that anymore. 

WC

Great response on the phone blocking. My take is when she does positive things... .for whatever motivation (manipulative or otherwise) there's very little need to comment... .since that's what a regular person would have done anyway. If however she reverts to blocking you, state clearly that you will be removing her from your account, and remove her regardless of her later actions.

Wipe the slate clean now. Draw a line under the past and determine how you will respond going forward. "I will not pay for a phone that I am blocked from". Going back to the path analogy... .at that point she has 2 choices, left (she blocks you from her phone and you ditch her from the phone plan and she has to sort herself out), right (she doesn't block you and nothing happens). You are not controlling her, you are not TELLING her what to do, you are just making one path more appealing than the other. It's up to her if she wants to take the harder path.

Boundaries are tough. We expect our SO to act in our best interests, or the best interest of the family. Radically accepting this is not the case with your W will allow you to do what is fair and equitable whilst avoiding the sense that you are being mean to her. Her perception of mean is skewed by her own emotionally driven narcissism and sense of entitlement.

I understand what you are saying. My BPD mother is very manipulative and she has zero boundaries for decades. Whatever she wanted, she got, one way or another. Since my father passed away, I have enacted boundaries with her. If she hears a "no" she will then go through her various set of "tools" to get what she wants. Why would she not? These worked for her for decades. People do what works for them. I don't necessarily attribute this to some cruel intent. It is doing the behaviors that have been reinforced. Some of the tools- causing a scene- yelling, screaming, or threats, and also being super nice. If she is being super nice to me, I start to wonder what it is she wants. On my part, I just have to stay consistent- yes when I mean yes, no when I mean no - no matter what behaviors she has.

I was in a similar reinforcement pattern with my H. I was afraid of his anger and so I would do things to avoid him being angry or stop him being angry. So I reinforced that behavior. When I began to change my responses- for a while- he did what he knew to do- because it worked, so there was more anger until he learned that it wasn't going to work.

A classic example of this is the Skinner box, where the dog would push the button to get a treat. When that didn't work, the dog kept pushing the button frantically until it did work. If you start to reinforce the behavior some time- give in when you are pushed, it becomes even more of a reinforcement- intermittent reinforcement.

You have started to have some boundaries after 18 years- you changed your patterns of interacting with your wife. For the moment, she is going to do what she knows has worked for 18 years- because she has learned it works. Why would she not? I think it would help to look at this as how people, and living things behave. Also know that, if you remain firm with your boundaries she will eventually learn her behaviors don't work- and may learn to do something different.

With the phone- if you gave her the choice to unblock you and then have service- hold to your word. Don't fall for charm, or the bad times. Stay true to your boundaries and word either way. Another good boundary is to not discuss anything emotional by text. If she sends you an emotional or nasty text, simply respond- "I think it is best to discuss this in person". This way you are not sending her hurtful ( or interpreted as hurtful ) texts. If she blocks you again ,then follow this with action. Honey, I said if you blocked me I would disconnect the phone. Service is discontinued as of ( date) and let the service drop.  Be consistent and stay calm. After 18 years it takes some time for behavior patterns to change.

I'm not endorsing having unrealistic expectations that things might get better, but at the same time, it's important not to miss "tries" when she attempts to act in a way that is kinder and more thoughtful of you.

You both have a history of woundedness and that won't change quickly, but you can begin to build a better relationship, brick by brick. And acknowledging even the slightest movement on her part in that direction is important.

You've been here long enough to observe that pwBPD don't have many of the "normal" relationship skills that we come to expect of a partner. Often they can appear "normal" enough at times so it's easy to lose sight of the fact that they have a disability, which is as real as someone who needs a wheelchair.

It's not fair, but since we have greater abilities in that area, we need to take the lead to make things better. You may feel like you've been doing this for years, Woodchuck, and I'm certain you have. Unfortunately the way you've tried to show her love by being accountable, responsible, kind and thoughtful, has just not been seen by her, and it's no fault of your own. You just weren't speaking the same language as her.

Things are very fragile at this point in your relationship and it's up to you to decide if you want to take another shot at really making it work. If you do, one of the first things you'll have to set aside is your heap of resentment. I understand that you acquired this all honestly and that there's good reason for it. But at this point, it's a choice. Do you love your resentment or do you love your wife? If you want this marriage to continue and to thrive, you need to choose one or the other.

That said, I understand it's very difficult to let go of resentment that you feel is justified. I was the queen of resentment when I first landed here and I continued on that path for a couple of years, I'm embarrassed to admit. But it wasn't making my life any better, nor was it helping my relationship. When I was able to leave that load of historical horse pooty behind and focus on current times, things suddenly improved enormously in unexpected ways. And as I continue to find flexibility and openness to my husband, life has gotten so much better--even joyful, much to my surprise.

I hope that you can let go of the desire to make things fair and equitable. Think about the big picture of what you want--is it to be right? Or is it to have peace?

What's going on with having a "talk"?

I want to endorse the thoughts expressed by many others.  When there is an "attempt" at "normal" (like the offer to talk), please... please validate that... .and do your best.

FF

WC

Hey... .let me borrow military mind for a minute.  Breathe... .relax and think.

You are confusing "strategic" and "tactical"

Skip is asking you for a "strategic" (big picture) idea of where you want to go.

From there... .we can coach you on "how" (the tactical piece) to go about achieving what you want "strategically"


Hey man... .I know you have a lot on your mind "over and above" the relationship.  I would "nudge" you towards working on communication and trying to "resolve" things because that has best chance to "reduce the temp" for the next 6 months or year.

You both have been pouring gas on the fire for so long, it's hard for either of you (or us for that matter) to see how good (or less bad) the relationship can get.  Perhaps it can be tolerable, perhaps good... perhaps it won't improve.

We can't know this until there is a consistent effort to figure it out.

I'll pause... .focus on "big picture" question you are being asked.

FF

*mod*

This thread has been locked as it reached the post limit.  Part 2 of this thread is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329538.0