BPDFamily.com

Hello all,
Today I went through multiple minimally invasive medical procedures to adress my health issues. Samples were taken, now I need to wait back for the results.
Before I left in the morning, I saw uBPDh coming down. He took up a new routine- as soon as he is dressed and ready, he comes down and out of the door. He started doing it since Monday once I stopped engaging and sleeping in my bedroom with him. Before that, since we came out on the 9th, from the silent retreat he has been splitting and pretty much discarding me. We haven’t been intimate since the 4th of september.
This morning when I saw him calm, I striked up a conversation. Asked him if he was rushing off to work or if he had time. He agreed to speak, when we sat down on the couch, I took a vulnerable and more humanistic approach. Told him that I know things aren’t well at work (his view), him being stressed out (true), me being concerned (also true), and that I regret that we got to this place in our relationships. He said that he doesn’t need my help, or anything from me for that matter, that I should be happy he is bringing in the pay cheques and not yelling st me or insulting. True to BPD manner, he doesn’t have any insight that he isn’t yelling at me because I choose not to be around, not because he manically got a hold of himself. I replied that it’s good, but isn’t enough for relationships to continue. That trust the most important component, without which relationships can’t survive. He started the rant again, about me making choices (not selling the house), and that choices have consequences. I asked him about the alternative, after the sale, to show I’m willing to negotiate. A downgrade is definitely an option. He replied “no I don’t want the downgrade”. I asked what would he propose? He replied “:” sell the house and go to rent”,
Me: “but the rent would cost us the same amount or more to pay” (doesn’t have financial sense)
Him: “you put money on stock trade and gain a yearly profit of 60 k” (thank you for sharing that he wants to gamble away our home and security”
Me: “ I compromised about the car with you, even though I didn’t want to do that, as a couple we need to discuss things”
Him; “you aren’t my partner, or my equal, you are lower then me, I feed you. Once you start working, we will talk, until then, you can’t ask me anything further. I don’t have to “f-k you” (we already went through this us being not equal, 12 years ago. I got a job, in hopes he will see me as equal, to my surprise it became “when you earn the same amount as me, then you will be equal. Then I became a “fat cow” (baby weight) that no one would sleep with except him. And that it’s a pity f-k as far as he is concerned”
Me: “I’m graduating in April, but it’s not possible to live in this kind of conditions till then”
Him:» read my lips, I don’t care”
Me:” you don’t care about me, but I need money for our son’s therapy, you can pay directly to his therapist without paying me”
Him:
“ no money, cut down the hours for his therapy” (he had money on the account, that’s been established from the accountant who is now not allowed to discuss any financial matters of the company with anyone but partners) legally 1/4 of all his companies is mine, through marriage and no prenup.
He never stopped so low to deny kids necessities, but given “Jews don’t deserve to live, go prostitute yourself “somehow I’m not shocked.
He later called his partner and told him he wants to sell their businesses in another city, which he justified. Partner didn’t agree, but basically he wants to get that amount one way or the other. So here comes the pattern: he thought he made it big, into millions range, with the fall of crypto market he lost 90% and now wants to get the money one way or the other. He is fixated to the point of obsession. I’m still holding my grounds, but realizing it’s a shaky situation. I won’t be able to cover all costs associated and might be forced to sell. Partner doesn’t want to sell the company either. I’m taking a healthy approach, partner doesn’t care, he will shove a bottle in his neck and personally buy him coke to “explain that he doesn’t need to sell the company”, omitting the stupidity of the house sale. Thus, the cycle of distraction will continue.
I kind of suspected, given his need for reassurance through sex that things were “bad”, now, that so much time had passed, I’m loosing hope for reconciliation every day. You might think I’m a terrible person, but I secretly pray for him to coke out so he can “switch his focus” and come to make up with me. I never facilitated or enabled him on that matter. However, I suspect the partner would much rather throw me under the bus to save the company and his interests

How did the approach you took today result in all of that unproductive conversation.

After this conversation... is your relationship better, worse or about the same?

What got accomplished?

It's good to speak and be friendly.  Perhaps it's better to be friendly for a while and then seen if a productive conversation can be had.

FF

1)more of the same “can we work this out approach” based on the fact that I’m running out of funds and need to pay for s11’s therapy
2)about the same, maybe worse for me? Greatly disappointed in him yet again
3) nothing was accomplished or resolved
4) unless something happens with him, I’m not getting through

Change is unlikely to happen through him.

You've seen how these "nice talks " gave you more of the same.

To address your question: is lack of sexual intimacy a predictor of discard?

There is no way to predict or know what your H will do, however, there is a pattern to abusive relationships. It isn't discard. It's a cycle of make up/abuse. From my own reading/observation ( I am not a professional). The abuser doesn't want to leave their abused. The abused person meets a need of theirs. So long as the abused person is available and willing to accept the abuse, the pattern persists.

Considering this pattern, a complete discard is probably unlikely. There could be a leave-return pattern or he could just stick around and continue his behaviors as long as you are willing to tolerate them. It seems you are looking at him to change and decide to be considerate of your feelings and welfare but if you are not taking responsibility for your own feelings and welfare what are the chances he will do this for you?

I don't know what his own boundaries for how far he would abuse you are, but it doesn't seem to me that a person who says the things he says to you or does the things he does to you has boundaries on how much he would hurt someone. If there are to be any boundaries with this behavior, they have to start with you. Boundaries are not something one puts on another person. You can not control what he says or does. You can only make decisions about how you are going to handle them.

I think he is unlikely to change his behaviors. Any change would have to start with you.

unless something happens with him, I’m not getting through
 Getting through to him is not the way to change. That may not be possible. Taking responsibility for your own well being is

Snowglobe


Here is my impression of your conversation.     First.   He is making every effort and attempt to avoid and evade these types of conversations with you.    Over and over he has told you in blunt terms that he can't engage right now.    You are not respecting his wishes and his boundaries.


He is entitled to his view.   It doesn't matter if his view is accurate or driven by his inner turmoil or personally inconvenient to you.   He is entitled to his view and his choices.


Stop right here Snowglobe and read that again.     red-flag    Why Oh Why would you continue the conversation after this?   Lots of members here have told you "When He Shows You Who He Is Believe Him."   When he tells you where he is at believe him.   He is telling you.   Point blank and bluntly that he doesn't want to be in this conversation.   


here is another opportunity to stop a conversation that is going off the rails.   He is starting to rant.   a clear signal to end the talk and walk away.



JADE.   Justify Argue Defend and Explain.  How much of this is JADE?   I see a lot.  The tools are listed on this website for a reason.  They work.   and they are the way to change


Another place to stop an abusive conversation.   We've talked about this Snowglobe.   Things will not get better until the conflict stops.    If you want to stop the conflict use the tools.   


Right.   I see that too.   You are having the same argument over and over again expecting different results.   When are you going to stop?


I read this exchange as emotionally manipulative.    Who is using FOG - Fear Obligation and Guilt here?    Yes your son needs therapy... .have these attempts produced results for you in the past 3 weeks?


have you ever heard of kitchen sinking?   that's taking all the problems and all the arguments and the kitchen sink and throwing it into one pile.     where they all immediately become too impossible to resolve.    I would suggest you stop doing that.    it's not helpful to you.   it is making the situation worse.

Did you go to the CODA meeting?

Did you speak to a lawyer?

Are you ready to take responsibility for your own well being?   

Two other separate points I want to adress:
1. My mother came back yesterday. After she called several times prior and after the procedure “inquiring” how I was getting to and from, very well knowing that I needed a family member to pick me up I chose not to respond. I called several friends, they all have jobs, so they couldn’t, uBPDh was getting kids from school at the same time, so he obviously couldn’t be in two places simultaneously, even if I asked him to. I took Uber both ways. She texted me, asking about the procedure, which I said went fine. She called my step father, who was with me and the children, and said she “was coming home”. I immediately protested, as I’ve seen this many years before. The “martyr coming back to the battlefield to sacrifice herself and then blame everyone else”, no thanks, I got it from there. Even with all of my knowledge of psychology I don’t understand why that is, when someone is being abused, in invites other people getting on the band wagon to join. I possibly can’t deal with two people doing that to me. When she called back and announced in her histrionic manner “I’m coming back... .”, I politely explained that I was worried about her mental state from the emergency visit the night before, that No one should be in the toxic environment, and that we are all better off for her to stay at grandma’s until things get better”. She said:”just tell me one thing, after I left, did things get better?”. I was lost for words. She thinks she slams the door and leaves and he realizes what an ass he was and comes back apologizing. “”No” I replied. We said good buys and I once more encouraged her not to come back for now. Guess what, poof, and she asked my dad to pick her up. She was back last night. This morning she awoke children before me and started busying herself with them. I stepped away, as km fresh from the procedure and need to heal, however it wasn’t necessary, I would have been ok with just my dad and I. When I walked out later and she asked me about the procedure, I explained the details and the fact that she has the same condition and it’s hereditary. She flew in rage and started yelling,”thank you for nice welcome, it’s always my fault, all the cow manoeuvre comes from me”. Like a well trained rescuer that I am, I jumped to placate her anger to explain that it’s not what I meant, but stopped halfway through the sentence and walked away. She texted me later that she is running errands with the car.
How can I deal with two BPD simultaneously, strangely, neither of them approaches one another. Thankfully. It would be a world war 3 if they did
2. When uBPDh runs out of abuse and threats it Escalates to “we are different people. We have nothing in common, I want a divorce. I will help you and the children how I can. But I now want to live my life and be happy.
In the past it was my biggest trigger, the one that literally brought me to my knees and made me do whtever outrageous demand he wanted. While he was making me feel guilty.
I know it’s coming very soon, as I’m still not listing the house. When he says that to me, which he will, without a fail, it’s a pattern that Ff was asking me about. I need to be ready and rehearse for that. The fellow members who have dealt with the threats of divorce and were able to extinguish the behaviour. What did you say and what did you do?
How would you advise me to behave given he is high on npd as well?

Ducks, I’m floored, yes, it was me trying to enlist him emotionally to provide for his children.
It was me who asked to speak and continue the conversation he didn’t want in the first place,
It was me who jedaed at him, all of that was me... .
I slipped, compulsively.
I didn’t go to coda because my mother faked a stroke/heart attach (previous post) and demanded to be driven to emerg, where they have her Xanax to calm down. The doctor recognized the signs, all of her ecg, blood works were fine, she was claiming she is having either a stroke or heart attach. As soon as she got the attention, and the pill, she hopped out of the wheelchair and went on as if nothing happened. There went my coda
2. Appointment is for the next week
3. What exactly do you mean by that? I’m ready, yes

I understand you are in a difficult situation. Two BPD's in your life are hard to handle. My mother is BPD too.


Several members have posted important information to think about.

I have asked you this question several times. I hope you will answer this.


Your daughter is 15 years old. This is about the time you met and fell in love with your H. You were not much older when he began his verbal abuse and you began to wait on him hoping he would change. If your own daughter was in a similar situation and told you what was going on, what would you say to her?

Babyducks wrote you an important post. Please read it and consider it carefully, especially the last part:

Are you ready to take responsibility for your own well being?  

When "something" comes up before the L meeting... .think through your choices now.

When "something" comes up before the next CODA meeting... .think through your choices... .now.  How did you taking your Mom to emergency room help her, you, the situation?  (it could be same or different answers).


Most importantly:  In one sentence... .what is Babyducks trying to tell you... ?

FF

Snowglobe,

what I exactly meant by that?   I am going to be blunt.   

I am asking if you are ready  to take responsibility for your own well being because I am not sure you are.

I have read your posts for a long time.    many many members have encouraged you to turn the focus towards yourself.    away from the fixation on your husband and your mother.

and your very next post is again about the bad behavior of the people closest to you.   again.

I suppose I could ask the same question a different way.   are you ready to stop being a victim?    are you ready to stop trying to force people who are either unwilling or unable to treat you better?   

is it time to stop being a victim and start being an activist for the betterment of your life?

It's a big question.   I am not making light of it.     It will be hard.   
 

I think babyducks' insights in this thread are very helpful.

I'm going to suggest that we sloow things down a bit. I've noticed that you have a tendency to try to push to get the many things that are going wrong or bothering you out in the open as soon as possible -- what babyducks called kitchen-sinking.

Let's focus on One. Thing.

You have the consultation with the lawyer next week. What day is that?

Until that appointment, please STOP engaging with your husband in these non-constructive ways. Give him space, give yourself space, and avoid taking all his bait.

You'll be giving the lawyer some basic information about your situation - marital history, info about your kids, about jobs, finances, and living situation. You should also use this time to inform the lawyer about your husband's detailed threats -- not just the physical threats (and be sure to mention the attacks like the one with the toothpaste), but the threats regarding finances and property and support.

The lawyer should be able to tell you generally what your options are and the likely outcomes, and if your husband can legally act on his threats or how you can protect yourself.

Back to sloowing things down.

After the appointment, I think your instinct is going to be to confront your husband with what you've learned to try to get him to resolve some of his threats. This is a BAD idea.

Can you continue to NOT ENGAGE with him and instead post here to share what you've learned and get some feedback on helpful next steps?

If it was my daughter I would tell her that BPD prognosis isn’t an optimistic one. This behaviour isn’t likely to change, especially given the duration of the relationship. I would tell her to get legal consult, enlist people who are mentally healthy, and aren’t in her immediate circle, such as friends and specialist. I would tell her to focus her energy on her children and studies while keeping things peaceful. I would also tell her it’s time for her to think about what she wants from life. Does she want a life full of uncertainty, at times misery, abuse and berating, or does she want a healthy partner to support her emotionally and encourage her growth. For that, she would need to be prepared to loose the idealization she craves so much, it’s a powerful drug. I would tell her that in time this kind of stress endured will backfire not only onto her, but her children. I would tell her that it pains for me to watch a smart, bright girl with so much potential to deem her light and diminish her abilities just so a man wouldn’t feel threatened by her.

I’m responsible for my own well being, and I’m choosing to put myself through and engage with it. Moreover, I invite it into my life, because I have certain expectations of him. If I remove all expectations- he doesn’t owe me anything. He doesn’t have to support me, he doesn’t have to provide for the family, I have to provide for me. He isn’t responsible for making me happy, I need to make myself happy.

@Flourdust,
The appointment is actually two Wednesday’s from now, I got carried away with “kitchen sink” and now everything is a one big confusing blur. I do need to take a step back and slow things down. You are so correct on the emotions I have even prior to the appointment. I imagined that after the consult I will come back on the horse, swinging, calling his bluff and telling him to “get the f-out out of my life, and I will snow show him equality”. However when you wrote this post, it got me thinking in, I realized that I would ignite a fire that I have no clue how to put out, or what he is truly capable of if he gets cornered. Retaliation against him will hurt me in a short and long run, given the fact that we have two children, one of them is very sensitive and is special needs, the emotions have to be dialed back all the way. If this case case any chance of positive resolution, it has to be paced and considered very throughout.

So... .lawyer meeting is two weeks away.  Right?

When is the next CODA meeting?  That needs to be a priority.  Retaliation and taking care of yourself are very different things.  They seem to get conflated quickly in your life.

Sloow down.  Very important. 

FF

The appointment is just over two weeks,
Coda is Wednesday nights, so I have missed this week’s. it would have to be the next week’s one, unless I can find another one close to home.
I do feel this ugly urge within to hurt him back, which I’m suppressing. Taking care of myself is another story, it doesn’t come naturally to me.
I’m slowing everything down, turning the volume down.
 
I just got an email from him, please help me respond without emotional outburst. Story preceding- has another business he ran on the side, alone, which I helped him with. Bank wires, drafts, currency conversions were all on me. He transferred that amount at times to our mutual account to subsidize the bills. Other times he bought crypto currency as an investment. I never really dwelled on where he sent the money as I knew he had family’s interests at the top of his priorities. He didn’t buy anything unless we were taken care of. This time, again, he transferred the money on to the business account (which is registered and operated under my name alone, I don’t have any access to the PayPals or other nuances of the business. He ran his part, I helped him with mine). The amount is large and substantial, monthly salary. He asked for the money to be wired to a person, as he usually pays contractors through wires. The amount he asked to transfer exceeds the amount he transferred over to business account. Below is the exchange:

I can't see the email, but if there is money in your name only, and he is asking you to take it out - and more than what he put in, I am concerned he is following through on his threats to have you completely financially dependent and on your knees begging him and or making plans to take it all and get away as he has also threatened.

If you have a nest egg and he wants some of it, IMHO, now is the time to protect yourself and hold on to it. This may result in an ugly battle between the two of you. I have heard of a spouse draining the mutual accounts when planning a divorce and also just draining it in general due to impulsive behavior. But with the things your H has been telling you, I think he means it.

Before you reply or do anything with the money, I suggest you post on the legal board here for advice.

Do not react immediately and do not respond until you have discussed this and been advised what to do.

You may need to move up that lawyer appointment if there is an opening.

UBPDh: Please send the money <here>
Me: The amount you transferred was fully converted to a balance is xyz usd dollars. For the amount you are requesting, it’s 50 dollars charge. Making it xyz usd dollars short ( at the current rate). After the lease for “the car” will be taken out, there will be xyz  dollars left on that account. Where do I take the rest?
His reply:
We need to get a job
I also will start subsidizing “my crypto company”  next month


When I carefully read the email I was forwarded, it mentioned sending him “the difference in bitcoins”, thus I imagine the full amount isn’t for the contractor.

Do not reply further or act on this until you have posted this on the legal boar

This is what I think is going on, and I surely can't know what he is thinking, but I am trying to put the pieces of what you have posted recently. I can't possibly know the whole of it, but this is what it seems like:

I think the recent financial losses of his investments ( I have no clue about cryptocurrency) have caused your H a lot of stress, and his behavior is escalating due to those stresses. His usual ways of managing ( ie using either drugs or you (sex, servitude), or your kids) to calm himself down are not as effective due to these stresses. His personality type is that of a projector- when he is feeling bad, he projects that on to others, externalizes them and so lets it out on you, his kids, or drugs/sex/porns himself out to numb the feelings. I don't know if your surveillance on him is keeping him from his drugs/porn/sex outlet, and his stress level may have exceeded your ability to provide your services to soothe him. In his perspective, then he would be angry at you, not the situation.

He needs money. He may actually be desperate - depending on his losses. He may have people he needs to pay off either for services due to the business or even for drugs. IMHO, a desperate man is a dangerous man, especially if shady business deals and drugs are involved.

To get the amount of money he would need- he needs to sell the house. If he could do this on his own, I think he would do it. He can not do it without you. You are resisting it, so he is going to do whatever he can do to get you to give in. The usual tactics are not working, so far, you have not agreed to sell the house, so he is upping the ante. How far he will take it, I don't know.

You can not rock the boat in a major way so long as there are no plans in place for your physical safety. I don't agree with appeasement on a long term basis. The things you are doing are not working for you in the long run, because if they were, you would be happy and he's be content with you as his servant and outlet for his emotional needs, which you have been for a long time. You aren't happy and he's not content. What you are doing isn't working.

Appeasement to continue to promote the cycle of abuse will basically lead to more of the same. However, a temporary appeasement while you get a safety plan in place is a consideration. If you have not consulted a DV hotline, or agency, I would recommend you do for advice on a safety plan should his behaviors escalate. If you ever do choose to make a move away from him this has to be done with your safety in mind. ( and the children). The difference between appeasing and playing it safe is that the first involves denial " if I do this, this will fix the problem" and the second one is" This will not fix the problem and I need to buy some time to make plans for my own safety"

Being responsible for your own welfare means owning your own choices. Your choices here may seem dire, but taking victim perspective is not being responsible for your own well being. Making a choice is- choosing to buy time is a choice. Choosing not to engage in a dramatic emotional way is a choice. Now may be the time to call a DV hotline to inquire about safety should he escalate.

This reply is important not only for members to understand, but for myself as well. I need this reminder to look back on.
He swung back.
Yesterday when I came home after I sent the “work wire”, he asked me to sit down. He then opened all of his PayPal accounts and showed me that in fact the “backup” business died down. All of his account proved what he was saying verbally before. Without forewarnings I got his crypto wallet and brought it to him.
Me:”since you want the full disclosure, I want to see what we have, as well as what we lost”
Him:”I already showed you millions of times and told you the amounts, I’m not doing this again”
Me:”I don’t recall you showing me balances in last 6 months, this would complete the picture, I’m missing information”
Him:” There, take it, it’s yours”
Me:”I’m not asking you to give it to me”
Him:”if I show you, you can have half and we will never speak”
Gets up and leaves to drive the kids to extra curricular

I tried to check the balance, unsuccessfully, as I’ve never done it. He then forwarded me an email from the accountant that his company is in fact is going into negative balance. It was adressed to unBPDh and his partner. I called back, and said:
Me: look, I can see the situation is extremely complicated, but I don’t have the full picture without knowing what our safety net is
Him: why do you need it?
Me:because we can sell that crypto currency and it will keep our family afloat until I get a job
Him:until you start working, you aren’t going to make any financial decisions, I’m not selling crypto as I believe it will go up
Me: ever since we came out of the retreat, I don’t recognize you, I don’t know who you are
Him: I don’t care about anything
Conversation died out.
When he came back, d15 asked if we are leaving to XXX tomorrow?
UBPDh was in our family bedroom. I went after him, closed the door Ansked
Me: do you have any plans?
Him:no, what’s it to you, you were fine watching tv?
Me:do you have any plans of leaving?
Him: I’m leaving “back to work” on Sunday
Me: when we’re you planning to tell me?
Him: I was planning
Me: what’s happening to us, a month ago we were making plans, moving forward with life, and now look. Besides all the money troubles, what happened to you and me?
Him:you disgust me, I lost my trust in you
Me: why did it happen?
Him: you disobeyed my orders and questioned my actions, you prevented me, I wanted to sell the house, I had opportunity, now it’s gone
Me: you changed drastically even before you mentioned the house
Him: I told you million of times, write it down if you can’t remember
I grabbed the notebook and started writing wht he was saying
Him: the house, the additional cheque, the crypto wallet inquiry
Me: I was trying to get the full picture
Him:either you are equal to me, you make the same money and make financial decisions, or you don’t ask, question or give me unsolicited advise and we are back to normal
Me: all I ever wanted to be a family
Him:you need to decide
Me: I won’t question you (after I heard that he is no longer interested in selling the house)
Him: goes on repeating the same thing I already know about the companies
Me:more crying and shaking the head in disbelief
Him: Starts to smile, I can’t believe you are more upset the I am
Me: how are we going to make it, you won’t make it, I need to get a job
Him:
I’ll be fine as long as you don’t question me, I will pull through
Me: no you won’t, I need to start working
Him: calm down and let me make the decisions
Me: we need to repair our relationships, I don’t know how
Him: I’m not a robot, we need time, just lie down beside me and hold my hand
I laid down and he held my hand all evening, we fell asleep next to each other
D15 came in to check on us. I know this feeling now. I recognize it. The relief when the storm passes, but you know for certain that it will return when you least expect it.

It is good that the conversation didn't escalate and the two of you calmed eventually calmed down.

It is also good that the discussion of selling the house isn't on the immediate table now.

I assume he also didn't get into the hate speech about you.

I think it would really help to read the book "Controlling People" by Patricia Evans to understand some of the dynamics here.
It's about $10 on Amazon. I read it and kept it hidden. This isn't for him to see. It's for you to learn from.

I think you held your own in some of  the conversation but there were some slips. Don't get discouraged. It takes a lot of practice to get to where you don't respond automatically and you were able to do some of that. This is success. You have noticed he seems to enjoy emotionally derailing you. This again is about control. The book will help you understand this.

Don't even go into the "equal" thing. My H pulled that cr@p on me to justify his spending that he knew wasn't fair, but he wasn't about to admit it. There are many marriages where one spouse earns more than the other and the two spouses are considered to be equal when it comes to making plans together and managing the household and family life. In my situation, my earnings will not ever be equal to my H's for many reasons. The first is our degrees. His has a higher earning capacity. The other is that I cut back to spend most of the time raising kids, and he then could put his time towards advancing his position at work. He used to use the earnings discrepancy to minimize my career but my job has meaning for me. I work for many reasons, one is financial but another is that- my job matters- to me and the people I work for and with. Every job matters in this way even if the earnings are not the same. What changed for me is that I had to believe it and not listen to this "equal" assessment.

However I also have to accept that someone may believe this. If this is what your H believes, then he does. You don't have to believe it, but if he does, then he does. Trying to change his mind is trying to control his thinking. We can't control someone else's thinking. Just do not respond emotionally to this "equal "argument.


Him: I don’t care about anything
Conversation died out.  You could have left it with this. Here is when you continued the conflict.


When he came back, d15 asked if we are leaving to XXX tomorrow?
UBPDh was in our family bedroom. I went after him, closed the door Ansked

( no no no- he went to calm himself down and you could have done the same, but you took up on D15's issue. )
Me: do you have any plans?
Him:no, what’s it to you, you were fine watching tv? ( leave me alone!)
Me:do you have any plans of leaving?
Him: I’m leaving “back to work” on Sunday
Me: when we’re you planning to tell me?
Him: I was planning


Lets try this a different way:


d15 asked if we are leaving to XXX tomorrow?  

Your D is old enough to ask her father herself. The response : " I don't know honey. I haven't talked to Daddy about this."

She can then decide to ask him or let it go.

I want to continue to encourage you to take your focus more on to you.

The main reason to get a job ( finish your degree and get a job ) isn't for him and it isn't all about finances for the family. It is about you. A job will help you to build your confidence, to feel accomplished and also have less fear about him leaving you destitute. You may not have the same earning capacity but a job is something and experience can lead to promotions and other jobs.

I personally would not even discuss looking for a job with him. I don't think you will get his approval or change how he sees you. I also think it serves him in a way to have you dependent on him and he may make it harder for you to make this change. You already saw how your mother had a "crisis" at the same time you were planning to attend CODA. I don't assume these things are deliberate, but taking steps to change can threaten the status quo in a family. Family members can tend to keep other members from getting emotionally healthier because these dynamics are comfortable to them. This includes you, as people can self sabotage to keep the status quo. IMHO, I would not discuss the steps you take to change with anyone. CODA meetings are confidential- you don't even have to tell someone you are going , just arrange care for the kids to go out -you can tell them whatever you want.

Do you recall the movie Wizard of Oz? Everyone was terrified of the great and powerful wizard but he was really a tiny little man behind a facade. This is your H. He needs you to be afraid and submissive to him because he isn't great and powerful. He needed a 17 year old girl to idolize him because someone older and wiser might not have done that, and he wants you to be that naive 17 year old but you are not 17. In some ways these dynamics may have kept you from growing past that and if so, that is some personal work to do. Your H has his own emotional issues as well,  but those are his to work on.

Can you give him the space to feel what he feels without reacting? This doesn't mean agreeing with him or sharing his feelings- but allowing him to be an individual with feelings and choices of his own. He has told you some things about himself and they aren't easy to hear, but they are what he is feeling in the moment. Consider the lessons on validation on this board. You can validate his right to feel what he is feeling, even if you don't agree or think it is a valid thing to say.


”if I show you, you can have half and we will never speak”

response- "I understand, and I would like to see the figures" ( no emotional response  and no backing down) . He eventually complied and sent an e mail.

Me: look, I can see the situation is extremely complicated, (This is actually a good validating statement.)



but I don’t have the full picture without knowing what our safety net is  (This follows SET)
Him: why do you need it?

Instead try : because I would like to understand our financial situation better.



Him:until you start working, you aren’t going to make any financial decisions, I’m not selling crypto as I believe it will go up


You: I understand you feel this way. I would like to know more about where we stand financially
Me: ever since we came out of the retreat, I don’t recognize you, I don’t know who you are  This is doing the kitchen sink thing. Best to stay on topic.

Him: I don’t care about anything
You: I am sorry you feel this way. I still care.


Me: do you have any plans?
Him:no, what’s it to you, you were fine watching tv?
Me:do you have any plans of leaving?
Him: I’m leaving “back to work” on Sunday
You: OK .  ( drop this it is going in a circle)



Me: when we’re you planning to tell me?
Him: I was planning
Me: what’s happening to us, a month ago we were making plans, moving forward with life, and now look. Besides all the money troubles, what happened to you and me? ( kitchen sink)
Him:you disgust me, I lost my trust in you

You: I am sorry you feel this way. end conversation




Him: you disobeyed my orders and questioned my actions, you prevented me, I wanted to sell the house, I had opportunity, now it’s gone


You: I understand this is how you feel, end conversation.
Me: you changed drastically even before you mentioned the house


Him: I told you million of times, write it down if you can’t remember
I grabbed the notebook and started writing wht he was saying
Him: the house, the additional cheque, the crypto wallet inquiry
Me: I was trying to get the full picture  JADE




It went down hill after this.

This doesn't mean you give in, don't ever discuss things,  but it helps to stay on topic and be aware of when a conversation is going the wrong way. This is part of the "stop the bleeding". We have to do this first- then there could be room for discussions later.

Snowglobe, I just want to chime in and support what others have said about giving up pursuing equality in his eyes... .you’ll never get it. I’ve read a bunch of your posts, and I can relate to a lot of what you go through-my H is similar in many ways. So, I can tell you, no matter what he’ll never “let” you be equal.

In the 12 years me and my uBPDH have been together, I’ve “grown up” from being a 20 something “starving artist” single mom on welfare with a HS degree and terrible credit rating to a fully financially independent woman with impeccable credit, 2 college degrees, a successful career, investments, and even a “toy” car (just for summer joy riding.) Guess what? I make the SAME amount as my husband, I have the same debt, assets, etc... .both our names are on the house... .we are equal. Not according to him. He still says everything is HIS. That he “gave” me everything I have. As if.

I went to night school while working full time. I even went double time before I got my full time job and at times had 7 papers to write on the same weekend, while also holding down a job and taking care of my son. I graduated with straight A’s, summa cum laude.  I scrimped and saved to pay off my debts, or not go into debt in the first place. I put stuff I needed on lay-a-way to avoid super high interest rate cc’s while my credit stabilized, and didn’t buy stuff I didn’t need. I drove a beat up car I could afford. I fixed it myself. No one gave me a f’ing thing.

Meanwhile, his career was handed to him. He never had to flip burgers, take out trash, do manual labor for pennies, or clean up after miserable hate-filled old people. He’s never even been on a job interview!  He grew up in upper middle class comfort in a wealthy town. He never cashed  in aluminum cans (thousands of them) collected from trash cans while getting stung by bees for gas money. He never had to choose between expensive lactose-free foods for his toddler with special dietary needs and paying the  electric bill to avoid shut off, or shop at good will stores for jeans. When we met, he was saving his entire salary because he was living at home while renting out his house to build equity on someone else’s dime. One of us was “given” everything they have but it wasn’t me.

We’re now equal, but he will NEVER admit it. I know it though, and while I can’t say I’m at the point where I can listen to his rage insults without taking it personally, at least on this point I know it’s BS. It makes me more angry than anything because when he says he gave me everything, it diminishes the tremendous effort I put into building my life.  I’m still working on that-controlling my reactions (even internally).

Even though I’ve earned at least half of everything, I currently don’t have any money all to myself that isn’t accessible by him or without his surveillance. I’m working on fixing that now. Why? Because even though I know it’s mine, it’ll be legally apparent, just in case my H makes good on his threat to throw me out “with the clothes on my back” or, I decide he’s crossed the line one too many times and I leave.  I’m still trying to build our relationship, but by getting my finances in order, I am making it clear to both of us that I’m staying by choice. There’s power in that.

It definitely isn’t easy. My H has major control issues, and is super paranoid. He freaked when I put my car in my name. He keeps trying to take over the cell phone account. He wants his name on my credit card. So far I’ve resisted.  it’s getting easier to say no, dodge it, or suggest alternatives (like, get your own credit card.) You can do it too. Get your degree. Get your career going. YOU need it. For YOU. YOU are worth it, your kids are worth it. Leave him be for a bit and do YOU.

Hello all,
As I predicted he stuck to his modus operatus, we had a family dinner last night, there was wine. He was abusing the substance after... .at first I thought he had disappeared to take some time and space after the dinner. When he didn’t Re-emerg from the socluded basement area and the door was locked, I knew what happened. When I knocked on the door he opened and started to apologize, as usual. He said he was depressed and didn’t want to come out of it, he didn’t care what happened after. I used that as a leverage to get into all of the wallets with his help. I have a full picture now. Things aren’t great, but they aren’t dreadful either. UBPDh said he will take the money he has in the company, started making plans for “Christmas vacation”?. Doesn’t matter how many times I have already gone through similar situations, I can not get used to them. Because we had family members in the house, I didn’t want to create a scene and just locked him where he was, so no one had the access to him, especially kids. I’m struggling between being an enabler and breaking the fact the he abuses cocaine secret from the kids and the family. D15 is old enough to understand everything, I don’t know how it might impact her life knowing dad was habitually using. On the other hand, this “covering” for him is making me angry. He is sleeping it off now, and I’m contemplating what to do next. Things got so out of hand in the past 4 weeks, I don’t think I can just move on and pretend we swept it under the rug.

Not only have you been covering for his drug use, you've also been covering for his abysmal behavior towards you as well as his financial irresponsibility.

People often learn through consequences, but when those consequences affect their spouses and children, it's very tempting to do everything you can to prevent the ill effects, and that is what you've been doing for years.

He seems to lack a sense of financial prudence, given his thoughts on selling the house and renting so that he could gamble the proceeds in risky investments. And you've mentioned that he's lost retirement savings in a similar manner. Now that his business is faltering, he wants to plan a vacation.

This puts you in an awkward position of speaking truth to power and squashing those irresponsible dreams. Ideally it would be nice if external circumstances prevented him from doing these irresponsible things, but it seems like it falls upon your shoulders.

What can you do to create more security for yourself and your children? The lawyer's consultation is a good step in this direction.

Your husband is likely to continue to demonstrate these irresponsible behaviors into the future. Knowing this, what can you plan to do to minimize the impact of this upon yourself and your children?

Please... .DO NOT tell your kids anything about this.

If you believe your children need to know something, enlist the help of a trained family therapist.  Let them work through the ethical issues involved.

DO NOT create a triangle with your children.

You and your hubby have issues that affect your children, this is true... .but leave them out of the conflict.

FF

I totally agree with FF. However your daughter may already know more than you think, but it's not appropriate to talk about this issue with her.

My guess is she has things pretty much figured out.

It's one thing to suspect something is the way it is, it's another to have it partially confirmed by one parent, then to have another parent "prove" that one wrong, then the first parent brings out additional proof that the first proof was fabricated (as you can see... .nothing good comes from this... nothing.)

FF

In a way, secluding himself in the basement isn't a bad coping mechanism. It it better than getting high and interacting with family members while obviously high, or getting drunk/stoned and raging at everyone.

He's been addicted to cocaine for a long time. That isn't going to stop anytime soon and it would take more than one retreat. It takes work and motivation on the addict's part, and time, and some kind of therapy. Checking on him to see if he is doing it probably isn't productive. He is. The good part is that you got some financial information.

We can't control what your H does. What are some things you might be able to change?

I don't know if this is accurate, but when you describe situations it seems that you H goes off somewhere to be by himself- the bedroom, the basement, and you go after him. He will then say something like "leave me alone" "I don't care" "he doesn't want to come out" . Going off to be by himself when he is upset is actually a good coping skill. It's not a good thing to go do drugs, but going off to calm himself down by himself is a good self regulating skill. When you come after him, he acts agitated and annoyed, and you persist in engaging him. The constant monitoring of his drug use may feel irritating and controlled and it may escalate things. I know you fear him hurting himself, but so far, the monitoring of his drug use has not stopped him from doing drugs- it just makes him irritated and wanting to hide them.

You have probably learned this from raising your son. Your H does not have autism but what autism shares with BPD is poor ability to regulate emotions. In addition, pw autism can get overstimulated by people, noise, commotion. To calm down, they need a safe calm down space. I've learned this from volunteering in my kids' schools and mainstreamed kids with autism have a calm down space.

Cocaine aside- what if- if your H retreats to the basement to be alone, you let him have his alone space? ( he's going to do drugs anyway). I don't see this as enabling ,but stepping out of the way and not being the drug monitor and handing his drug use to him because it isn't yours to control anyway. If he has a drug party in the house that's a different thing and you could call the police if you chose to.

If you have an argument with your H and he retreats to the bedroom, how about letting him be?

Although attending CODA meetings may cause you concern about rocking the boat, it may also a chance to change things for the better. You might also consider ACA meetings where members deal with family dysfunction from their childhoods ( it doesn't have to be alcoholism) since you do have issues with at least one parent. Your H may be emotionally 17 which could be why the two of you matched well when you were. When things got difficult, you used your 17 year old coping skills to soothe your H. In a way - this kept you both emotionally at 17 year old relationship skills. Through these groups you can learn different ones- how to stay calm when he is dysregulating and saying hurtful things( keeping safe if there is any physical abuse). Being able to manage your own discomfort when you don't jump in to fix things and allowing him to manage his feelings too. One problem with enabling is it keeps people from learning better skills and keeps the two of you in a repeated pattern. If you learn better skills, allow him to manage what he is responsible for :himself, and his drugs ( and you keep an eye on the finances since this is your family's survival too ) he may have some space to learn different skills as well, if he is able to.

I’m going through with the consultation, irrelevant of what’s currently happening. I need to know in no two terms what can I execute if or more when I would need to.
I’m not doubting even for a moment that this will repeat itself, and likely worse since I didn’t handle it so well. My thoughts and feelings are more clearer now, that he actually did it as I predicted he would. Members on this forum gave me an opportunity to “see” the pattern and remove my “wishful thinking glasses... my husband is sicker then I ever imagined, and unlikely want to seek help. I need to prepare a safety plan with the lawyer.

Exactly what I’ve done, slowed down, minimized the drama and emotions. Put the kids to bed, made sure he is alive and went to sleep.

I’m confident that not my children, nor my parents have even slightest suspicion of the drug use. I’ve become a professional as to how to clean up, lock him in, indicate him after to remove any physical symptoms or otherwise memorabilia

What part in the pattern do you play?  What do you see yourself doing?

FF

This also helps him to continue using :  I’ve become a professional as to how to clean up, lock him in, indicate him after to remove any physical symptoms or otherwise memorabilia


Let him clean up his own drug mess and or face the embarrassment of being discovered. I agree with not telling the children but if they were to find out, it is the honest truth- their father is a drug addict.

Being in ACA 12 steps a long time, the problem for the children isn't only the drug/alcohol abuse. It's the family pattern of the relationships, the enabling, the cover up, the secrecy. The kids may not know exactly what is up, but they may sense it. Also this family pattern is the norm for them, and so it increases the likelihood they will also marry an addict or become one, or choose a relationship with similar dysfunction. It isn't just the cocaine. It's the relationship dynamics in the family. You may not be able to change your H's habit, but you can change your behavior and that can change the dynamics. By you changing, you can have an impact on your children- even without saying a word about their father to them.