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I have been away from the boards for a while for various reasons.  Things have escalated at home and have been very time consuming.  I can detail much of that later.  My biggest concern now is the mental health of my children.  My S14 is a great kid.  I could not ask for a better son.  Aside from being a typical moody teen and spending 'too much' time playing video games, I have no complaints.  He has a strong set of values that he is not afraid to uphold, gets straight A's in school etc.  There is virtually no reason to not trust him.  My W on the other hand feels a need to be in total control of everything he does or is involve in.  I believe that this is due to some kind of childhood trauma that she experienced though she denies having any negative experiences as a child.  She will not allow him to go on any youth group trips without her going along to 'protect' him from anyone that might sexually assault him or accuse him of sexual assault.  She does not trust any of the leaders.  I have more or less just let that go regardless of not agreeing with it.  This past week, my S14 asked me about going on an overnight trip with his foreign language class in a month or so.  I told him that he needed to talk to his mother since she would probably have a problem with it.  When he asked her, the first thing she asked is if she would be allowed to go and if she wasn't then he would not be going.  He told her he did not know if she would be allowed to go.  She told him the other option would be to drop him off in the morning and pick him up in the evening for the two days of the event.  He told her that he did not want to do that because that would make him look like an 'idiot'.  She asked him if he knew how many teachers sexually assaulted their students.  He told her that he would not let that happen to which she responded that he might not be able to stop someone from assaulting him.  He asked her if she went on trips when she was a kid.  She told him that she did.  He asked her, "You weren't ever sexually assaulted, right?"  Her response was, "sure".  The conversation ended with her telling him that his only options were for her to go or for her to drop him off each day. 

I do not want to see my son lose out on opportunities during high school because of the issues that my W has.  Due to this interaction combined with several other red flags, I believe that she was sexually assaulted/molested as a child and have brought the concern up with her but she has flatly denied it every time, telling me that she had a great childhood and that nothing bad ever happened to her until she met me.  I don't know what the best course of action is to help my son.  I can sign for him to go and then let the chips fall where they may.  I anticipate if I do that, she will go and make a scene at whatever the event is which would be a huge embarrassment to him.  I could continue to just sit along the sidelines and let her do what she does and continue alienate her kids from her.  It just seems like a lose/lose situation.

WC

You're his dad.  You can give approval.  (Probably inform her first of the matter but if she opposes then you can state what you will do for what you see as the child's best interests.)


Inaction is usually a terrible choice.  She demands to make the decisions, acquiescing usually doesn't work long term.  Even worse, it's a poor example.  Ponder whether this is a good time to set a Boundary.  No better time than the present, as I see it.

I have two thoughts, from my own experiences.

First, his mother is hypervigilant.  Why?  Who knows, but yes I'd agree that something in her childhood experiences now leads her to view, as my ex did, that "probably" everyone is an abuser.  So far as I know, no one was able to convince her otherwise.

Second, probably she's reliving her childhood traumas or insecurities through him.  My ex and I consulted with a reproductive specialist to have a child.  I had the mistaken belief that she would be happier with a child and be able to join him in experiencing a fresh life of discovery.  Ouch, was I wrong!  She relived her childhood fears through him.  And brought our marriage to a crushing end.

I recall that she was still making him use the women's restroom in stores when he was at least seven years old, perhaps even a bit longer.  I remember complaining to his counselor about that.  She insisted he wasn't safe.

I signed him up for a school-sponsored and school-monitored fifth grade overnight field trip to a camp on the other side of town.  If he didn't go he would sit with a few kids left behind.  He was anxious to go.  Well, her time began that evening and so she went to go pick him up from there.  Of course she created a scene there.  So he missed the evening, overnight and next day's fun.  He also missed school the next day and was marked absent.  (He was supposed to be either at camp or at class.)  I used that incident in court when I was seeking majority time.  A couple teachers were subpoenaed and they testified about the incident.  What was the result.  As much as the magistrate repeated throughout the decision that I was being "disparaged", I believe it was the aborted school field trip (and a couple other school issues) that meant the most since I got majority time but only during the school year.

Do you have a court order?  What does it say about school, is it joint responsibility?  If joint or equal, then if it ever came to court (and based on my own experience) court would side with the child attending these school-related or school-sponsored activities.  Not that he had to go on the field trip, but that one parent's objection should not abort arrangements made by the other.  My magistrate was quite peeved that mother came and took son away just because her parenting time had started.

A few questions... .Whose parenting time will the trip occur on?  If hers, can you trade time so that he will be on your time during that trip?  (Even if she refuses, that refusal ought to make her look like she doesn't have son's best interests at stake.)  And No, telling mother to attend the event is not a fix.  This is for the kids and is monitored by trusted professionals.  And he's 14, nearly grown, he can yell if a bad situation arises.  That ought to be sufficient.

If I were you (I'm not and may not have the best grasp of your situation) I'd go ahead, sign him up, pay the costs and be sure to tell them that you would prefer that neither parent attend the event.  And inform your son that you've made the decision to support him going and without his mother interfering by joining in our blocking his overnight there.  As I see it, the worst that could happen is that his mother does whatever she wants.  But you've stood up as the immovable object to her irresistible force.  Stand up for him.  What do you think?  I bet your son would really like that firm Boundary no matter what his mother does afterward to obstruct, sabotage or complain.

One recent experience... .I enrolled my son in driving classes.  They were not only conducted inside his school, they were scheduled for the first week after school ended for the summer, not spread out as one class each week.  He was excited... naturally his mother objected, "He's not ready."  She even took his phone away the night before.  He was a bit dejected when I drove him to school for the first class.  Well, she must have mentioned this to her friends or co-workers - and probably exclaimed "Oh, how great!" - because by the time he walked out of the school to meet me that first day he had his phone again.  Of course she never listens to me.  And if I had caved, it would have turned out so differently.

ForeverDad - I believe that Woodchuck is still married and resides in the same household as his uBPDw. That's what makes his situation really tough.

Woodchuck - I hate to see you doing what I did and, unfortunately sometimes still do, with my kids - namely, defer to mom; she is the ultimate decision maker. I know it's not a healthy dynamic, and your son and daughter may end up with a tilted view of how relationships work.

This is where boundaries are so very important. How does this feel internally to you? If this goes against something that you really believe in, namely S14 is a great kid and deserves to have our trust, it is really important to speak your truth. Your truth is relevant. It does matter. It certainly would make a difference in your son's life to hear it. At some point, you have to realize that you are the only functioning adult in the household, and standing up for your kids, while really unpleasant, is important. It can be along the lines, "I understand that you have concerns about S14's safety. I do too, but he deserves our trust and support. I do not agree with your choice. I want him to go, and I am going to speak with his teachers to make that happen."

It might create WWIII, he still might not go on the trip because of a dysfunctional parent, but your son will remember that his dad spoke for him. Is that something that you think you can do? It's about knowing what is really a deep part of what you feel, and not allowing that to be trampled because someone else only considers what they are feeling.

Sorry to be so direct. This is close to my heart, too.

your son will remember that his dad spoke for him.


A memory for me too. My father tended to defer decisions to BPD mom probably to avoid her reaction. This also made him look like the innocent one and her the bad guy when she made decisions that I didn't like. Well some of them were parental decisions that kids don't like ( and that is normal ) and some of them were unreasonable and the only reason for them were due to walking on eggshells with BPD mother.

IMHO, your son is old enough to go on an overnight school trip without his mother coming too or picking him up. In fact, that would look odd to his peers- a 14 year old boy doesn't need to go on trips with his mommy. All teachers are not molesters. I hope this doesn't happen- to him or anyone but also he is old enough to learn to defend himself from unwanted advances. Is his mother going to go to college with him?

IMHO, I wouldn't engage the conversation about teachers and sexual assault. That is her own issues. It happens unfortunately but it is rare. I didn't experience it, thankfully and neither did my kids- and there were school trips. Yes, you want to know that a trip is well supervised by reliable adults, but after that, chances are, it will be a good experience.

At some point... .you'll have to face the yes/no dynamic on giving kids permission to do trips like this.

I'm certainly voting for giving permission now.  Guess what... .your wife can write the school a letter and "deny" it... .

She gets to choose.

Your son gets to choose.

You get to choose.

School gets to choose.

You only control your vote.  There has been an illusion of control by your capitulation to letting her decide.

Your son may or may not end up going on the trip.  What I think is a more important thing is that your son sees you standing up for him and "normalcy".  He can make his own decisions about what he thinks about Mom doing her thing.

FF

To be fair, you don't have to be a BPD mom or have past sexual molestation trauma to find it hard to let your elementary-aged son go into a men's bathroom on his own. 

Woodchuck, why not try to meet her halfway?

How about she and S14 do a Kidpower or safety defense class together as a condition for going on this trip on his own?

Why not validate her fears that something bad could happen by getting right into it with her and figuring out how to manage those potential threats? Maybe he'll be in a hotel room, and he explains all the ways he will trick out the door to make sure no one can enter, even if the door is locked. Maybe he agrees to check in with her periodically, at an agreed upon time. If he doesn't respond, she can flip out all she wants.

Maybe she gets to talk to trip organizers about who will be on the trips and make sure there are background checks.

My H has had his house broken into and he's a little OCD with locking the doors and setting the alarm. It drives me a bit nuts. I also know it's a real fear for him, that something might happen to his loved ones, especially while we're sleeping or worse, if he's away.

So I do things I wouldn't normally do -- I text him to let him know yes, the doors are locked: front, back, garage. Check check check. Alarm is on. Check. Stove is off, check.

You will have to take a firm stand: S14 is going on the trip. Here's how it's going to work.

Otherwise, she is setting the boundary and you are on your heels.

Setting the limit and standing by it is the hard part, because this will be a new boundary and she'll have to test it to figure out where the limit is, and if it's any match for her fears and furies.

The school trips my kids have been on in high school have either been dormitory type rooms or 2-4 kids to a hotel room. Nobody is alone in a hotel room. Usually it is the teachers who are the supervisors and some volunteer parents. If it is a school related trip- then the school is also likely concerned about liability and safety for the kids. Were there some kid pranks and acting silly? Probably but anything serious would be grounds for dismissal. There have been no incidents of molestation as far as I know.

I do agree that addressing the mother's fears is important, but I don't think they will entirely go away.

ForeverDad -
I am working my way towards standing up for him.  I told him last week that my plan moving forward is to sign him up for things that he is interested in with the understanding that his mother may object and cause problems.  I believe he understands that what she does is beyond my control.  It is a tough place to be in, kind of stuck between protecting your child from an overprotective parent that may embarrass them and at the same time trying to support them and encourage them in things they are interested in.  I think that my W would have more or less the same reaction that yours did about driving classes.  My S14 has a bit of 'interest' in a girl that is in his youth group at church.  The girl contacted my W and asked if she could invite him to a dance/party with her homeschool group.  My W asked me what my thoughts were after telling me that she thought that it was not a good idea and she did not think that it was appropriate for him to be interested in girls at his age etc.  I told he that I was not going to share my opinion with her because it would just lead to a fight.  Looking back, I would have handled it a bit differently and shared my opinion and left it at that.  She contacted her parents and asked them what they thought.  They told her that it would be fine as long as there were chaperones.  After that, she decided that he could go.  

Takingandsending -
You are correct, I am still living under the same roof and there are no legal requirements set in place yet, in large part due to how the process works in the state that I am living in.  You are right as well as my W being the ultimate decision maker 99% of the time.  If you ask the kids, mom is the boss.  If you ask her, she gets the deciding vote because she has spent more time taking care of them than I have due to her being a SAHM.  I think that your approach that includes validating her feelings and voicing mine is a very good way to go.  I find it difficult to voice my views because there is no compromising with her and if I don't agree with her, I get attacked for 'not being supportive'.  I know that in a 'normal' and healthy relationship, we should be able to talk about things and either come to a mutual agreement or compromise and work together.  That is not possible with my W.  It is her way or her way.  I have tried to be 'supportive' by passively letting her do what she wants and looking back, I think that I have unknowingly bred a monster.  


Notwendy -
I could not agree with you more.  One of the things that concerns me the most is how he feels like he can't be trusted due to how she treats him.  He mentions it quite often and she says nothing in response.  I do communicate to him that I trust him and back that up with giving him responsibility etc.  I don't think she knows how to let go and quite frankly, I am a bit scared about how she will act when he does leave the house for college or whatever he chooses to do.  

FF -
I fully understand that I only have control over my vote.  I am not trying to control her vote.  I am trying to determine the best way for me to vote.  Do I try to be a supportive husband or a supportive dad?  I can't be both and trying to determine which is best and right is not easy.  

livednlearned -
I have tried to meet her halfway time and time again.  It is her way or her way.  My 'vote' does not count if it is not the same as hers and actually just causes more problems if I view things differently.  He is not in elementary school, he is in highschool and almost 15.  In 3 years he will be a legal adult and be completely able to be on his own.  I am not basing my belief that she either suffers from BPD or past sexual trauma on this fear.  I believe that there was sexual trauma based on the following:

-An email from her dad talking about how trust is important in a relationship and that he is very aware of a serious lapse in trust with her
-A booklet that I found in some of her school 'records' (she was homeschooled but has a box full of school projects etc).  The booklet is titled, 'He told me not to tell, How to Talk to Your Child About Sexual Assualt'.  The booklet also had to bookmarks from an Incest Family Counseling program.
-Complete lack of trust with anyone around her kids.
-Her response when my S14 asked her if she had ever been sexually assualted.
-An instance where she asked me what my deepest/darkest secret was and after I shared with her whatever it was at the time, I asked her what hers was and she told me she didn't want to talk about it.


Those are just a few of the red flags.  Is it proof of sexual assualt?  No.  I hope that they are all false red flags as I would not wish that on anyone.  With that said, if something did in fact happen, it would be very helpful to know so I could be more understanding and empathetic towards her behaviors.  
We had our house broken into about 10 years ago and I still think about it almost every night and am a bit OCD about making sure the doors are locked.  
I guess, the part I am struggling with is choosing a side because part of me feels like I should be a 'supportive' husband, but how far does that go?  I don't feel like I should completely deny myself and my beliefs for her.  The other side is choosing my son, but I want to be a good example to him of how to be a supportive and loving husband and going against her feels like I am doing the opposite of that.

WC

I was referring to another post elsewhere in the thread. Apologies for the confusion 


It's hard when there is a values conflict. The tricky part in a BPD marriage is that *conflict* is exponentially more intense, so a lot of us tended to do nothing (path of least resistance), which was the same as making a choice.

This seems to be more about how your son develops a sense of mastery and self-respect.

You mention that you are working your way towards standing up for him, and you've also told him that the plan is to sign him up for things. Does that mean you are going to back him up with this foreign-language trip?

Yes... you can be both. 

Don't buy into her thinking.  She has manipulated you into believing this is a dichotomous choice.  Classic pwBPD manipulation.  And you seem to have bought it.

You can support her feelings and having different feelings.  You can have your vote and she can have hers.

And... .let's assume this is a dichotomous choice (which it is NOT)... .how has "supporting" your wife turned out so far?  Is she more or less fearful?

FF

My understanding is that you don't want to be in a relationship with her anymore.  You are separated in the same home.  This means you should not longer be trying to be a supportive husband.  Your focus should be on being a supportive father - figuring out what your priorities as a father are and how you can best support the children (while also not creating WW3 in your house while you are both living there).

The dilemma also fits the drama triangle. You either rescue your wife ( from her fears ) or your son ( from her desire to be overprotective ).  In reality, there are few people who need to be "rescued".  These are people who are truly in danger ( your wife is not ) or those who can not stand up for themselves ( children, elderly, disabled ).  The dilemma is not about who you should stand up for in this situation, but how it will be perceived. IMHO many BPD relationships are victim (BPD person) and rescuer ( their partner). If you stand up for your son, you will be perceived as persecutor in your wife's view.

 
I am always amazed at the insights from this community. I finally got some clarity on this during a session with my T. I was afraid of making things worse when I disagreed with my xw, and my fear enabled her to emotionally harm my children by remaining silent or even sometimes by trying to support her to appear to be unified as parents. My T gave me permission to and said it was my responsibility to not agree, to stand beside my kid during his mom’s outburst, to put myself between them if necessary. I didn’t stay in the triangle. I entered it to show my son what it looked like to leave it. It sounds like you are trying to find a way to do that, Woodchuck, and I believe the steps you are taking will have a good result.

livednlearned-
I understand... .no need to apologize.    I thought maybe I had misspoken in a previous post about his age.  Unfortunately my S14 will not be going on the trip as he brought it up the day that the paperwork was required to be turned in by.  I did not want to make any split second decisions and am trying to formulate how I will hand things from here on out.  I have spent years having the response of 'doing nothing' and it has really only made things worse.  Something has to change and I believe that the best place to start is to stop doing nothing and letting her steamroll through life without me doing anything regardless of how I feel.

FF/WorriedStepMom-
The way I have handled things thus far has not brought about the desired results or made anything better.  I would tend to say that things have progressively become worse.  I dont recall if I shared a conversation that my son had with his mom a few weeks ago.  When he shared her comments with me, it was kind of a breaking point.  While she was telling him about how he needed to love everyone unconditionally, she also stated that he showed too much love and respect towards me.  What kind of person says that?  Even when I have completely disagreed with how my W has treated the kids, I don't tell them anything like that, instead I tell them that they need to focus on what they do and how they can make things better and that they need to respect and love her.  The tough part about where I am currently at in my relationship with her is that I don't want a relationship with her but at the same time I cannot seem to stop caring about her.  I would feel relieved if she packed up and left but it is not what I 'want'.  I know that probably sounds crazy and it probably is but it is how I feel. 

WC

So... the direction you have "been driving" isn't giving you results you want.  Sounds like the results keep getting worse (do we agree on this?)

Assuming my "reflecting back to you" above is correct.

What does doing a 180 look like?

FF

Yes, you will get blowback when you make a stand on what YOU decide is appropriate.  In fact, it may increase for a while (extinction burst) while she tries so hard to pressure and intimidate you to retreat back to prior acquiescing patterns.  However, in time she may come to the realization that you aren't retreating and then she will fight less strenuously.  No one can say how long that might take.  The difference in the dynamic will be huge, especially for your son.  He will see a better example from you, he won't see "whatever your mother demands" anymore.

You really can be the immovable object to her irresistible force.

You can be the husband and father you want to be, but there's a difference... .be a father first, then if there is room left you can be a husband second.

Do you really believe this? Oddly enough, this may invalidate what your kid is experiencing, leaving them with a confusing trail of mixed messages to decode. I had to learn to stop doing/saying this to my sons, along with "Your mom loves you" to provide reassurance to ... .I guess to myself.

Going to suggest a better response is "How did that make you feel when mom said that?" or "Why do you think she said that?" He told you what she had said to him because it troubled him. That's where you can have a big effect on his well being through validating him right where he's at. Put another way, his mom cannot validate his feelings. He needs validation. He is turning to you to get that validation to help sort out how he feels, which is really cool given that he is in adolescence, and he is in a hard situation with his mom. He apparently really trusts you ... .a lot.

PS - It's way hard when you are absorbing the pain of being dismissed by your wife to be there for your kid. I think you are doing a good job as a dad. Your kid trusts you. Just keep working on how you can be there for him.

I was thinking the same thing as talkingandsending.

It teaches your son that love is conflated with controlling and invalidating behaviors.

He may believe that girls who are controlling and invalidating must be loved and respected, even if it doesn't feel right. Even if it's abusive and not emotionally safe.

Agreeing with T&S and LnL, I'm reminded of the many new members who arrive, commenting that they tell their kids, after many repeated invalidating actions by their disordered parents, "... .but your {mother, father} loves you."  We can't be Mr/Ms FixIt.  That is a very hard impulse for us Nice Guys and Nice Gals to Let Go.  Painting over the bad stuff only hides the problem, the elephant in the room.  Yes, he probably does love his mother but it has to be tempered with an awareness that there are still huge issues that he doesn't have to own, they're her issues and that can't be brushed off.  We have to address these matters properly in age appropriate ways and not inadvertently invalidate, even with the best of intentions.

I also agree with all of the above about things like "your mother loves you" and you "should love and respect your mother".

As a teen, there were times I disliked my BPD mother and resented her for how she treated me. I understood I had to behave respectfully towards her- the "honor your parents" is a value for me, but we feel what we feel- and to be told I "should love and respect" someone who isn't behaving in ways I respect could be invalidating.

I think at times, most teens will have moments of frustration at their parents. It's also different for them when a parent has BPD. Still, as maturing adults, they need to learn how to behave respectfully. A parent with BPD may act out on their feelings but the child needs to learn appropriate ways to manage them. They may be frustrated with a teacher, or their employer one day- they have to learn respectful behavior while also maintaining appropriate boundaries.

If the parent with BPD is not behaving respectfully but the teen has to, then it could be confusing. At some point ( I think this requires a counselor to avoid triangulation ) an older child will suspect something is up with the BPD parent- who doesn't behave like the other adults they see and this needs to be explained to them with compassion.

Perhaps a better phrase would be. "I understand this is frustrating for you, but still, I think it is important to behave respectfully towards your mother."  while also allowing them to have their boundaries.

The main thing that I try to teach them is to focus on themselves rather than what the other person is doing.  As we all know, you can only change yourself.  That is the main goal that I try to focus on.  I think that there is a balance that can be maintained with respecting others and maintaining good boundaries.  I do validate things that the kids get frustrated with etc and I usually bring it back around to what they can do to make things better or how they can be understanding of what is going on.  Understanding is not equal to fully accepting.  NotWendy put it perfectly at the end of her post.  I don't try to paint over anything but rather try to keep their focus on how they can make things better, sometimes that just means not saying anything rather than 'arguing' with their mom. 

WC

how they can make things better, sometimes that just means not saying anything rather than 'arguing' with their mom.


I think it is a difficult situation and it won't likely be done perfectly. I'd be careful with the "how they can make things better". That really isn't their role. They are children and it is the adult's responsibility for their well being, and to stay calm while the teen is emotional, not the other way around. I don't propose allowing teens to argue and be disrespectful, but it's the adult's role to model emotional regulation for them and to help them learn to do this.

With a BPD parent, this role can be reversed, with the teen having the responsibility to keep the parent calm.

In another thread I mentioned the teen can feel anger at the parent. They are in the process of becoming independent and yet are still dependent in many ways. As a parent, I found this to be challenging at times- gradually letting them have more freedom while still maintaining boundaries. They didn't agree with me at times- they were their own person, yet I still had to have boundaries with their safety and goals in mind. Your kids may argue that they should be allowed to go on safe, supervised, teen youth group trips -and they actually have a point. What you eventually want is to have values internalized - so by the time they go to college they can be self regulated. They also need to be able to stand up for themselves.

How to do this when they are not able or allowed to stand up for themselves or make their point with their BPD parent is a challenge. You can't really fix that for them. They will need to be able to do this with you- make their point and hopefully you will be able to advocate for them if you are in agreement. This is a difficult triangle situation as your wife will expect you to take her side. The other option is to explain that as long as they are home, it is her rules, and school trips will have to wait until college. Sometimes you have to pick your battles. Not all kids get to go on these trips. When it comes to safety and well being- it is important to intervene but school trips may not be feasible for them. They may resent this  but this is how it is.