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I don't know where to put this, but I need advice helping my SD15 figure out what she wants to say. It's a tough situation because there is absolutely nothing she can say that won't make this a rejection to her mom.

We live out of state from her uBPD mom and the kids spend every other Winter break, Spring break, and Thanksgiving with their mom by court order. But SD15's T told her that in our state she doesn't have to go to her mom's at her age if she doesn't want to. And when SD15 asked DH he said that she didn't have to go so long as she was willing to tell her mom herself that she didn't want to go.

In hindsight I kinda wish the T hadn't said anything because it's a tough position to put a kid in. But at the same time this T has been great and I don't think she would have thrown that out there lightly.

SD15 brought it up at dinner tonight once it was just she and I at the table. She said she knew in her mind she definitely doesn't want to go, but in her heart she feels guilty. I thought I understood this as standard BPD FOG that she was stuck in, but it turns out it's more complicated than that. SD15 confided in me that there is more than just her mom's lying, manipulation, bad-mouthing of DH and I, interrogations, and explosive rages. It turns out that uBPD mom's fiance is emotionally and verbally controlling and abusive. SD15 has been exposed to really nasty fights with name calling, threats to leave, and her mom's fiance throwing it in her face that she couldn't make it without his money. SD15 was dragged into some of these fights and had to try and play peace maker.

So, another big reason SD15 doesn't want to go is that she doesn't want to have to be around all that. She is fully aware that her mom's relationship is abusive but she also knows she can't say anything to her mom because, like many people in abusive relationships, her mom will flat out deny there is a problem. ... .And then there are all the more standard reasons for not wanting to go that have to do directly with her mom's behavior towards her.

SD is looking to me for advice on how to approach telling her mom she doesn't want to be there for break without hopelessly burning that bridge. She'd also prefer not to get raged at. She said she feels like her mental health will suffer if she goes, but that her mom will also make sure her mental health will suffer if she doesn't.

Should DH just take at least the first part of the bullet and send his ex an email letting her know that SD15 has made it known that she doesn't want to go and that her T said that, court order not withstanding, she can make that decision? Maybe his ex will burn herself out having a conniption at DH and the later conversation with SD will be a little less awful?

I think this is a great topic to get the T's input on.  The T can help SD role-play and work out what she wants to say.

Does SD want to go to the next visitation?  Is she calling for a temporary break but wants to go later, or is she done with visiting mom at the same home with stepdad?

Mom is going to rage at SD, whether or not your H tries to help.  She'll need good boundaries in place to help her cope with that.

Is the custody decree filed in your current state or mom's state?  If it's not in your current state, H also needs to consult with his lawyer and make sure that he can't get in trouble with the court if SD refuses to go.

Hi WS,

I brought up role-playing what she wanted to say with the T, but come to find out she's never even told her T about what is going on with her mom and mom's fiance. I never go in with her for her T appointments, but I have now offered to. SD is mentioned that her T offered that they could call uBPD mom together to tell her, but SD feels she needs to protect her T from having to deal with her mom's rage. I'm going to have to bring that up to the T.

SD doesn't know that she will or won't want to go again. Part of her hesitation is that if she doesn't go for Christmas she might not get a choice to go after if her mom disowns her.

The order is in our state now. We had it adopted by our state when uBPD moved out of the state of original jurisdiction to go live with her fiance. So if she wanted to have a fight about this she'd have to come here to do it. In the order she is given one weekend a month to visit the kids in our state, which she has never used, so I highly doubt she would put up a fight in court, especially with the T on our side and with the kid's therapy being court ordered in the custody order.

My son was disowned three times this year, two times he used the actual word "disowned", but each time he was reclaimed a day or so later.  Each time he was traumatized, the third time there were no tears.  That was when she took back his phone for agreeing to my scheduling driving school sessions right in his high school.

He was so sure he had lost the phone that he uninstalled nearly everything.  Well, I drove him to class so dejected but when I picked him up 4 hours later he had his phone again.  I'm guessing his mother had remarked to someone about the driving school (which I paid for) and they responded, "Oh, how great!"  She clearly doesn't listen to me.

What about her younger sibling?  Is he still going?

Yes, that's what I told her. She is likely to be raged at and disowned every time she sets a boundary for the rest of her life. But her mom is her mom and will always be her mom. That she can choose how she reacts to these episodes when they happen. She heard me, but being able to actually do that is another thing. It's something that will take practice.

SS14 is a whole other can of worms. He has some very serious behavior issues and may have some BPD traits himself. He has threatened to go live wirh his mom, but when DH told him he could he immediately backed off and was actually afraid DH would make him go. But he still talks to BM like coming to live with her is on the table. It seems he uses the possibility to control her. I think he's on the fence about going for Christmas. He has said he can't wait to go see his step brother and sit around playing video games the whole break, but he also has said that if SD isn't going than neither is he.

DH might very well send him anyway because we need a break from having him in the house and he has given no pressing reason for not wanting to go beyond that if SD doesn't go he feels like he can get away with not going and not get in as much trouble with BM as SD does. Especially if he can tell his mom later some lie like that he "didn't realize" he could still go. Which uBPD mom will believe if he says it because she'll want to believe it.

Poor kid - so many worries on her shoulders.

The T definitely needs to know about the issues with mom/mom's fiance, and needs to know that SD is trying to protect T.  My SD is younger (11), but the T has me or H go in with her for the first 5 minutes of every session to tell him things that she might not volunteer on her own.  They may or may not address those things in sessions, but at least he knows about them.  Part of it is that a kid may not be able to weigh what's normal or not to know if they ought to bring something up.

My SD11 has gotten over the urge to protect the T (it never worked - her uBPDmom rages at T All.The.Time), but she is still trying very hard to protect her dad and me.  It frustrates us, but we're hoping in time we and T can help her stop that.

SD11 gets disowned about once a month (always in the waif-y "it sounds like you are confused/have anxiety/are being brainwashed, so you should stay with your dad until you fix yourself").  According to the script, SD is supposed to beg to see mom and will then be magnanimously forgiven.  Last time, SD said "okay, I would like to stay with dad".  Mom was shocked and started love bombing her.  It was a HUGE confidence builder for my SD that she could stand up for herself and survive.  When your SD has the courage to finally put herself first, she's going to be shocked at how strong she feels.

Update. SD15 told uBPD mom that she isn't going to visit her for winter break. There were some fireworks. Including uBPD mom telling SD15 repeatedly that if she doesn't come mom will haul dad into court for contempt.

DH also was threatened with contempt via email. She said that DH would either need to file for a modification of the custody order to be heard prior to the visitation or pack SD a bag and make her get in the car.

Nice of her to try and tell DH what his options were. Like she wouldn't just ask for a continuance or two and then tell DH that SD needed to go since the matter wasn't yet resolved.

DH responded that it's her prerogative if she chooses to file for contempt, but that if she did so, SD's counselor would be called to the stand and he would ask that SD be allowed to speak to the judge on her own behalf.

I suspect we'll be going to court after the holidays since BPD mom doesn't ever believe that she will lose, no matter how often she does. That doesn't mean I think it'll be a slam dunk. DH is denying her court ordered visitation. But the order also specifically states that DH must "follow all recommendations of the counselor". So I think we can successfully point out that he is between a rock and a hard place and that he is doing what he feels is in the best interest of the child.

Is SD's brother still willing to go to his mom's house for the holidays?

Yes. Though he's now concerned he'll spend the whole time getting grilled and yelled at because of what SD is doing. That's a valid concern.

Apparent conclusion: Got an email from uBPD mom. Basically a nasty-gram about how DH had better have SS at the exchange location when he is supposed to be there because she doesn't want any more suprises and she has to work hwr schedule around getting SS because she doesn't have the luxery of having other people to do the exchanges for her (usually I or my MIL do it) and he'd better give her makeup time with SD later, as that's just the right and proper thing to do. So, in her own way, she's letting us know she won't be filing for contempt and is backing down.
 

That's a pretty reasonable outcome. It would feel really hard/hurtful to any parent to be rejected by their kids over the holidays. I know that she made this outcome by her own actions/words, but it still has to hurt.

That said, how hard for your SD, too. Glad she has you to help her with growing her boundaries and understanding what she needs.