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Last night, my W was concerned that she had not heard from our S14 who was on a field trip.  He had already let us know he would be home late.  I sent him a message asking why he had not responded to his mom's messages.  He said that he had.  I relayed that to her and told her that I highly doubted he was lying.  This made her angry and she stated that she had not received any message and that he did not answer when she called.  While we were discussing the issue, my S14 sent me a message with a screenshot of all the messages that he had sent to her.  I showed this to her and she became enraged.  I attempted help her figure out why she did not get the messages but this only made her more angry and she told me to leave her alone and get away from her or she would beat me up.  I know that this is technically a crime but I do not want to escalate things to that level at this point.  My D11 was present at the time.  I spoke with her later as well as my S14 and discussed with them that it is not ok to threaten to hurt someone and that if they receive a threat like that from anyone, including me, that they need to bring it to the attention of someone they trust right away.  I am not scared of her or anything that she would try to do to me.  I am sure that she could harm me if she wanted to but I also believe that I could defend myself.  I am trying to determine the best way to move forward and keep everyone, including her, safe. 

Woodchuck

Be very cautious, WC.

Even though you can protect yourself, if you are bigger than she is, it can easily appear as if you are the danger. As long as you are together in the same house, you may want to adjust your responses to not directly invalidate her, even though she is clearly not perceiving reality. Something like, "I can see you are concerned. I will text son. Oh, he thinks he has texted you. Have you checked your phone recently? Sounds like a mix up." Or simply don't respond if you feel she is baiting you. Doubting S14 was lying implies she is lying.

Consider recording yourself as things get are escalating, so that if it devolves into physical altercation, you can prove you were acting in self defense.

Sometimes texts don't get recieved.  My boss gave me a hard time a few months ago.  He showed me his sent message.  I showed him that I didn't receive it.  I agree that implying she was lying set her off. 

Stop invalidating her... .that would take care of most of it.

Rather than proving things... ask her directly if she wants help solving this (wait for answer).

Perhaps validate that technology is frustrating... .not to mention 14 year olds.

I'm not suggesting that her implying physical harm is ever ok.  I am suggesting that I'm not in the least bit shocked that she said this after so much invalidation... .

Invalidation is HUGE

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Personal experience.  While I was invalidating my wife her paranoia went from me looking at women... to meeting them... to sex... .to marriage... .to out of wedlock children  (yes... she believed I married another woman).

I would "prove" each of her claims wrong... .and then next claim would come back bigger and worse.  Once I removed invalidation... things slowly got better. 

I'm still not that good at validation... .I'm ok at validating questions... .  all of that helps.  But it's not even close to the impact that removing invalidation from your relationship will have.

FF

Even if she would let you look at her phone, she could still say, "Later" and then delete the challenged texts before letting you look.  So I agree, this can be a situation she won't let you or the probable truth win.

As for threats, one truism shared here is... .if it has been threatened or even just contemplated, then it will happen, given enough time.

So many here, before thing s got bad, believed that our ex-spouses would never lie to police, court, etc about serious things concerning us.  But it did happen all too often.  There is no Low too low for a riled, vengeful or Blame Shifting spouse.  That was a wake-up call to face reality.  So be forewarned, 'never' is a belief lost a long time ago for many members here.

And given enough fuel on the fire.

We only control the fuel we dump on it (invalidation... etc etc) and I would suggest that all of the pwBPD have a great ability to dump fuel on their own fires (therefore don't need our help).

Crossing lines is an important thing to think about.  She has now crossed a line with threats, it won't be so hard for her next time.

All isn't lost because of one threat, but you do need to be aware there are many... many more mines in the minefield than you ever expected.

Hang in there WC.

FF

I am not sure if she took what I was saying as implying that she was lying.  Regardless, that was not my intent.  My intent was to show trust in our son, thus the statement that I didn't think he was lying.  To me all that implies, is that he was trying and something went wrong.  She is well aware that texts do not always go through.  There have been several discussions about that in the past.  Regarding invalidating her, my biggest concern was about protecting my son from her 'rage'.  He is an honest and responsible kid and does not deserve the way his mom treats him most of the time.  He tries very very hard to gain her trust and approval and has spoken out many times about how frustrating it is to him that she does not trust him at all.  If she wants to make false accusations against me or accuse me of anything, that is one thing, but the constant attacking of the kids and not being nice or kind to them much at all is going too far.  That very same night, she was screaming at my daughter to pick up her things she had left around.  When my daughter entered the room to pick up her things, she told her mom that she didn't feel like she was being very nice to her.  That just led to more verbal attacks, blaming my D11 for the screaming since she had been irresponsible and left her things laying around.  The behavior is just plain wrong and no amount of invalidation in the past has quelled it at all.  I believe that I need to stand up for the kids in these kinds of scenarios.  Could I be validating to my W and talk about how frustrating it is that the kids leave stuff around or do this or don't do that?  Yes, I could and I have in the past to the point of exhaustion and it makes no difference whatsoever.  It is the same story with her working.  She is 'exhausted' every day from working an 8 hour shift.  I have been working 10 hour shifts for years and have received no empathy or validation for any of that.  Instead it is all about her and how tired she is.  Not to mention that the 8 hours that she is working is only contributing to her savings account and not helping out with any of the financial responsibilities.  Validating does not seem to work with her at all and I feel like one can only put so much in without seeing any results.  What makes it even more difficult is she is a completely different person to virtually everyone outside the family, validating and appreciating them to the point where it just makes me sick because it is so fake.  I apologize as I know a lot of this is just venting as I am very frustrated with where things are at and feel cornered and stuck. 

WC

Hey WC... .I know this is frustrating and it is wrong.  No doubt about it.

I'm concerned that you are mixing concepts or don't really understand the POWER of invalidation. 

Think of invalidation as fuel... .or even worse... fuel vapor...

Think of her as an open flame.  (now... .she shouldn't be an open flame... it's not right that she is an open flame and you didn't make her an open flame... yet... .she is)

Your son is on your fuels team.  Two choices

He can approach her with his fuel container and the lid off... .and vapor going everywhere.

or

He can put an approved lid on the fuel and approach her...

Which scenario is going to work out better?

If you are interested in protecting your son... .which of those two choices is going to work out better?  I get it... you want other choices and someday you may have them... .or you may not.

How is fuel vapor analogous to invalidation?

Do you understand fuel vapor and it's danger? (wink wink nod nod)

Do you understand invalidation and it's danger?  (yep... please give me a short sentence or two)

And... .FF bonus question

Why is JP 5 safer than JP 4 or 8.?  How does this analogy apply to this discussion about your wife?

FF

FF- First, I need to correct what I wrote in a previous post.  The part that you quoted should have read 'no amount of validation in the past has quelled it at all'.  While I can appreciate and understand the fuel analogy, I have a huge problem with my W 'choosing' to have an 'open' flame with my children.  It is just not right, especially when I consider how hard both of the kids work to gain her approval, trust etc.  To go along with the fuel and fire analogy, she seems to be like a flame thrower, spewing her fire everywhere and blaming everyone else for not having their 'approved lids' on.  If she wants to do that with me, great, I can handle it.  If she wants to treat the kids like that, that is not and never will be ok with me.  The whole text message thing was, in my opinion, based on things she has said and done, an attempt to prove that he was being irresponsible and should not be allowed to go anywhere without her.  We are talking about a kid that is a straight A student, in multiple advanced classes in high school, did not want to go to homecoming because of all the 'knuckleheads there making stupid decisions', and the list goes on and on.  He deserves to be trusted.  He deserves to be able to start to spread his wings and take advantage of experiences without his mother breathing down his neck.  He already has a bad complex about not being trusted, which I have to consistently 'invalidate' and tell him that he is trustworthy.  In my opinion, my son does a very good job for the most part of 'keeping a lid on it' but everyone has a breaking point and his mother is very very good and pushing people to and past their breaking points. 


I am very aware of how dangerous fuel vapor is, that has been my bread and butter for 20+ years.

I also understand invalidation and it's danger.  Along with that, I also understand that everyone has limits.  I have bent over backwards attempting to be validating in spite of all the crap I get in return.  In regards to this specific instance, it could and in my opinion should be validating to see that he is being responsible. 

JP8 is actually safer than either JP4 or JP5 due to having a higher flash point etc. 

WC

Hi WC.

I get what you are saying, and I'd defend the kids in those types of situations as well. Just don't go looking for a fight when your kids aren't there.

And I get bending over backwards to validate your spouse. I don't recommend that, and quite probably, you may have validated the invalid, anyway, just trying to placate her. I definitely don't recommend that.

The idea is to validate the valid. She is having a feeling (fear, worry, or anger). It's valid. She is feeling it. Saying, I doubt son is not texting you is okay to say as your truth, but saying it with the timing that you mentioned will be experienced by her as invalidating her feeling. It is possible to use SET. Don't waste a ton of energy on it. Just a simple, "I see that you are upset, and I'd be upset if I thought son was not texting he was going to be late. I see that he has texted me, and I trust him." End of story. No further discussion. If she wants to engage or threaten you, you express your truth, "I see that you feel I am ganging up on you. I am not. I will not accept threats or violence." Then, leave. All of these approaches remove her fuel. Her fire will die out. Again, don't kill yourself doing this stuff. Brief, and firm works. You don't invalidate your own truth. You don't validate what's not valid - that son is not to be trusted. I think that may prevent things escalating.

Thing is, by bending over backwards to validate her, even when it has been invalid, you have built up a lot of resentment (understandably). And it appears that you may be wanting to fight the injustices of her toward you and your kids. I don't recommend that approach while you are still living under the same roof. There's a difference between agreeing to all she says, and holding your boundaries with firm communication.

If you think this is a choice that she can turn on and off when she wants... .that point of view isn't going to take you to a good place.

I also want to temper it by saying she likely does have some control, although that varies with a number of factors.

Big picture thing... .is BPD a choice you wife is making?

FF

You sound a lot like myself.  You seem truly kind, thoughtful and rational which in this sense rationality is your worst enemy.  Rational thought and believing my uBPDw was capable of the same thought is what led me down this dark hole I'm in now.

I just want to say... .I'm a guy who's been married 24yrs to my uBPDw.  Things have gotten really out of control very quickly.  Mine also seems to have stemmed from invalidation.  I recently lost my father which turned out to be a life changing event in which I grossly underestimated the devastating effect that his death would have on me.  I was not the best version of myself being overtaken by grief and battling the onset of depression related to my loss.  I was not the patient, well thought out validating person I had been previously as I was unable to put her needs before mine as I was in a bad spot myself.  

Long story short... .uBPDw planned a horrific, dramatic end to our r/t.  She fabricated the most hurtful, elaborate accusation telling police that I punched, choked, and kicked her repeatedly while making herself appear as the innocent victim.  This has been nearly 3 weeks ago and he shows no sign of letting up.  Things just continue to worsen.  I'm $17k in the hole for attorneys and my family seems to be dissolving before my very eyes with nothing in my power to stop this avalanche of chaos.

So my words as simple.  Be cautious!  Be very, very cautious!  Protect yourself even when you don't perceive it to be necessary.  At minimum I might make a statement to the police about your incident of her verbal threat but tell police you're not interested in pursuing charges at this time but would rather there be a note recording such an event had occurred.  Protect yourself and your kids because once pandora's box is open you'll wish you had been more vigilant.  Good luck my friend.  I'm praying for you and your family.

Truth is that I am completely exhausted.  I do not want to do this any longer.  I do not want a relationship with her beyond what is necessary for the kids.  I do believe that she has a significant amount of control and that is what makes things extremely frustrating.  Hearing her talking to her coworkers and friends on a daily basis and being a completely different person towards them than she is towards her own family is extremely difficult to deal with.  I have asked her to leave on multiple occasions, the most recent after she told me that our relationship was dead.  Her response is always something to the effect of she is not leaving because there might be a day where I will decide to change and be the person I should be.  She also suggested that I leave and move in with a coworker.  That would mean that I would have limited access to the kids and would be paying the mortgage for the house for her to live in while she is working full time and not contributing a dime.  It would also mean that I would need to shut down my home based business that I have been building for years. 
Speaking of death and it affecting people, we had to put a pet down last Friday.  It had been in our family for 17 years.  'We' also had to put down another pet a few months ago that had also been in the family for the same amount of time.  With the first one, my W took it to the vet and had it put down without any warning or allowing the kids to say goodbye.  It was having kidney failure and it was a good idea to have it put down but the kids, especially my D11, were not happy at all that my W had just gone out and done that without including them.  When my W was taking the cat to the vet last week, I told her that she needed to let the kids know if she was going to put the cat down.  She told me she had no intentions of putting the cat down but she ended up calling my S14 about an hour later telling him that she was putting the cat down and that if they wanted to say goodbye, they had better make it quick.  Now I am being vilified for 'making the kids feel like they should go and say goodbye to their pet and that it is cruel and unkind to make them have that be their last memory with the cat'.  Is it not normal to want to say a final goodbye whether it be an animal or a person? 
Finally, last night, she asked me what I wanted and I told her what I need is an apology for all the various hurtful things she has said in recent months, such as:
I would be relieved if you were dead
I don't claim to love you
and the list goes on and on.
I woke up to a hand written note this morning telling me that she is in fact not sorry that she said anything that was hurtful, that it was my choice to take it that way and that she was justified in everything she said because it was meant to elicit change and make me a better person, wake me up, etc.  As I said in the beginning of this post, I am exhausted.  I do not know how much more I can take.  I just want her to go live her life and let me live mine.


WC

WC

Hang in there man... .

I'm going to encourage you to consider a few things.

Is debating her staying or going or your staying or going needed for the kids?  (therefore... .?)

Is invalidation needed for a relationship that revolves around your wife? (therefore... ?)


What is the difference in the relationship between you and the coworkers that she seems to have a relationship with that you envy?

The pet thing sucks.  I'm so sorry.  I've seen a similar arc play out in my relationship with my wife.   Pets came and went but it was a together thing until BPD showed up... .actually a couple years after it showed up.

The last death was of a beloved bunny we were going to show at the fair next summer.  Bunny was still young, and while we knew they were "fragile as pets" (meaning they die a lot) we somehow thought it wouldn't happen to us.

Well... .it happened... it was a shock.  I expressed interest in doing a "together" funeral... she seemed to agree.  I wanted to be in as good a spirits as possible so I did some work on my back (stretching followed by hot bath) and just as I was starting my hot bath my wife "burst" into the room... .announced the funeral was happening right now if I wanted to be part of it... .and "hopped" out of the room.

I said I would be out soon, but I doubt she heard me.  Whatever they did... they did.

I expressed shock and disappointment and went on with life... without getting involved in circular or other reasoning that she was right and I was wrong... bad... .or other stuff.

It sucks... .it really does.  She and everyone else understands that doesn't work for me... .and no more bunnies  (there is a basic understanding of no more pets added... )

I can generally explain that my wife has a big emotional thing... .ruminates which makes it worse... .and that's who she is.  Me expecting her to behave like someone she is not... is unwise

Perhaps she will change in the future... perhaps not. 

Back to you and your story.  I'll leave you with a question. 

Do you appreciate it or otherwise feel better when your wife "tears you down"/talks through your faults?

FF

Woodchuck- there is a saying "don't go to the empty well to get a drink of water". I see from your posts how much you wish your wife to understand your point of view, to apologize to you, to want you to have a birthday be your day.

First of all- getting an apology from a person with a PD is nearly, and may be, impossible.

When people dysregulate, they can say some terrible things. Whether or not they mean them, it is best to not take them too personally. They come from a place of "victim mode" and in the moment are designed to hurt back. In my experience, the pwBPD may not even recall what they said in those moments.

This doesn't mean you forget them but stop keeping this list of things that you want her to acknowledge and apologize for. For these things, her "well" is empty. This is probably not in her emotional makeup to do so.

Yes, she will act differently with her co-workers and acquaintances. Stop taking this personally. This is an aspect of BPD- it affects the most intimate relationships more and a high functioning person may have a different persona in public. This isn't about you- you just happen to be in the intimate partner position.

You may be done with this marriage - and so can take steps to deal with that decision. Not taking your wife's disordered behavior as personally doesn't change your choices, but it may help you keep your self esteem and a clearer head in the process.  

Notwendy,

Might be a good time to give your perspective on life with a high functioning pwBPD and a low functioning pwBPD.  My understanding is you have some background with both.

Which one was "easier" to see and understand?

Which one did you find yourself questioning yourself about more?

FF

A saying I've been reminding myself of... .

"Don't expect "gallon" love from a "pint" person... .

FF

I believe that at least in part what is making things more difficult now is the fact that the night that we put the cat down, she came to my room crying and laid in bed next to me.  This is after months of pushing me away if I would try to hug her and refusing to have anything to do with me.  My first inclination was to tell her to get out, she doesn't want or need me to do anything for her and I am just an a$$hole etc.  I could not make this path right in my head so I put my arms around her and tried to comfort her.  There was virtually no response and a few hours later she got up and left.  I felt empty and confused.  Months of being pushed away, a brief 'moment' of 'closeness' and right back to being pushed away.  This 'broke' me in a way that I cannot explain. 

I do not expect her to apologize for anything but if she asks me what I need, I feel like I need to tell her what I believe I need.  Saying the kinds of things that she says is one thing.  Everyone, BPD, nonBPD all say things that are mean and hurtful.  Where it really hurts though is when the person states that they are NOT sorry.  Not apologizing it bad enough, but specifically saying you are not sorry and that whatever was said was well deserved is significantly more hurtful and damaging. 
It is extremely difficult to not focus on many of the things that she has said because they are repeated quite often.  The few that I mentioned are the 'big rocks' that I cannot figure out how to 'forget'.  The ones that bother me the most are the 'I don't need you', 'I don't want you to do anything for me' etc.  Those are said in response to be trying to be kind, loving, supportive etc as she has requested. 
Regarding not taking anything personally, I can do that to an extent, but it is extremely difficult having her come home virtually every day and immediately get on the phone with a coworker or someone from her office and hear the supportive, empathetic, happy conversations and then have her switch to 'family mode' if she decides to come out of her room.  I don't know how many times one of the kids has tried to talk to her or show her something and she is on her phone (not a phone call) and she snaps at them that she is busy.  The dejected look on their face is painful to watch.  On the flip side, as soon as her phone rings she will stop any conversation or whatever is she is doing with the family because whoever is on the phone is more important. 

I get the idea of not going to an empty well for a drink or not expecting a gallon out of a pint.  But the behavior that I outlined above is what makes that really difficult to process.  The well is not empty and there is a gallon there, it is just offered to others, not our kids or myself.   

FF-
I am not sure I understand your question -
Do you appreciate it or otherwise feel better when your wife "tears you down"/talks through your faults?
The only time I feel 'better' is when she is not around.  If she is in the house, my anxiety is through the roof.  I am not sure if that is what you are trying to ask or not.

WC

Until you can apply those analogies to YOUR relationship with her... .I don't see any change coming to your relationship.  My guess is that it will continue to deteriorate and fester... you will be more worn out.

The frag pattern will continue to expand.

She doesn't have a gallon for an intimate relationship.  She does have a gallon and more for "casual" relationships.  On some level she gets this and it contributes to shame.

There is nothing good for you or anyone in your family by thinking this is a choice made by your wife  It is hard to understand, but I assure you it is true.  You and she do have some influence over this... .

Listen man.  We are very similar.  I... for a long time just wanted my wife to straighten up and do like she did for the first 15-16 years of my marriage.  I didn't understand what I was dealing with.  I invalidated her... horribly.

She didn't accuse church members of being in multiple marriages, having children out of wedlock, multiple infidelities... etc etc... .so I figured "the truth" would help her.

I was coming from a "rational" place.  She was in an "emotional" place. 

Once I understood that her emotions were "the battleground" and "the truth" had NOTHING... .I assure you NOTHING to do with it... .well... .things got better.  Not a straight line and it was confusing her for a while.

Other than how she treats casual acquaintances. ... .what is it that leads you to believe she is making a choice?

FF

FF - both are confusing. I think BPD truly exists on a spectrum and there isn't a clear division between high and low functioning in all situations but I think it has to do with how well a person functions in living skills and the extent of how BPD affects relationships.

I think high functioning is more confusing as the pwBPD is able to hold it together in other aspects of their world and may even be highly accomplished. Because of these relative strengths it may appear that the pwBPD does choose  how they behave with their intimate partners.  It raises the question- well if they can be so nice to their friends and co-workers, why aren't they that way with me all of the time?

My best conclusion is that they are unable to, for many reasons. The way they are in public is a sort of mask that they practice and it takes emotional effort on their part to do this. The work and public relationships are different, and so are less emotionally challenging to them than an intimate relationship is. They are less vulnerable in them. While expertise may be demanded of them in their jobs, intimacy is not. A teacher is in charge of the classroom. A nurse is in charge of the patients' medical care. This is not an equal relationship. Each has a certain level of control in the relationship with their charges and it isn't the same as with an intimate partner. They can manage their professional worlds but not their intimate relationships. Intimate relationships are more of a challenge in general and more for a pwBPD.

We all do this to some extent- act a different way in our professional worlds and with acquaintances than we do at home but I think this contrast is greater for someone with BPD.

Another confusing aspect of high functioning BPD is that it is possible that the only relationship that is affected is with the intimate partner. Others won't see it. With lower functioning BPD more aspects of life can be affected such as ability to hold a job, many unstable relationships, and behaviors such as drug/alcohol abuse. It's easier to take the words and actions of a pwBPD more personally when it is just you. However, I think the mechanism of a dysregulation is similar- the person is temporarily flooded with negative emotion and deals with it through projection- blaming, saying mean things.

I know exactly how that feels. WC, I can't recall - are you getting help for yourself? Are you seeing a T regularly?

Fact: You are under verbal and emotional assault.
Fact: Your S14 is under verbal and emotional assault.
Fact: Your wife is not going to stop without significant treatment.

To survive living under the same roof, you need a lot of support. I hope we in the forum are here for you and not making you feel worse. I know I get triggered reading your posts with memories of my own painful experiences with my xw.

Seeing a T can help you emotionally disentangle and protect yourself from the assault that you are under. Once you are taking care of you, it will be easier and less reactive to take care of your children. That's what I am hoping you can achieve.

I just want you to know that things will get better when you separate, and also that it is really important to take care of you until that happens (and after, too). You will still have your wife to deal with as an ex wife. She will still be a parent that you have to figure out some level of communication with. You will still have all sorts of fear and anxiety about your kids in her care. But not having the daily, sometimes hourly, attacks on who you are as a person/for existing, is huge.

But the first step is letting go of the dream that you once held of whatever family and relationship looked like with this person. Grieve, cry, get angry, let yourself have your feelings. In the end, what is painful is letting go of what we wished for, not of what we actually have. The sooner you can reach that understanding, the quicker you can detach and take care of yourself, no matter what the external circumstances.

I am really sorry. I get how hard this is. 

I have done a relatively good job of applying these analogies until this issue with the cat when she reached out to me.  That really messed with my head.  I do not believe that I want or expect her to change.  At this point, I would have a very difficult time believing any change was genuine.  Along with that, I fully recognize that I cannot change her and I don't believe that I am attempting to.  I really just want her to go and get on with life and be happy.  I don't want to do life with her any longer.  The difficult part is that I still care about her but do not want a relationship with her.  As far as why I believe she is at least in part making a choice, again, reaching out to me for comfort after putting the cat down.  She had not reached out to me for months and instead pushed me away anytime I attempted to reach out to her.  I think the notwendy makes a good point about work relationships being different and the fact that she is in control at work probably plays a large part in things.  Even with that, I cannot express how difficult it is to listen to her conversations with others on a daily basis.  It isn't just out in public, it is in the house as well due to how much she is on her phone.  As far as letting go, it is extremely difficult to do that while staying in the same house and she refuses to leave.  Her leaving would be significantly easier than me leaving.  She has the financial resources and lack of financial responsibilities to do so. 
I am seeing a T regularly as well as talking with friends and family but most everyone has the same response, they have no idea what to say.  I am doing what I can to take care of myself, however between all the drama at home and the impending career change, I feel extremely overwhelmed. 

WC

I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to live in the same house while working to end a marriage.

I really think the best thing for you would be to find a way to leave the house and bring the children with you.

Likely the best topic to discuss with your T.   What can you do to get some "space" so you can make decisions under less "overwhelming" circumstances.

I would also ask you to consider a pattern that you have and also discuss it with your T.  Perhaps "in person" you can grasp this concept better of "emotional reactivity" or determine that your wife is actually making conscious choices.

Look at the Cat situation. 

You are overwhelmed... .

She is overwhelmed... .

It appears that you are upfront about having a hard time making decisions (thinking clearly)... whatever you want to call it.

Yet... .you ascribe to her the ability to think clearly (and plot to make your life miserable).  I get it that's a broad definition.

Teaching people to have empathy through these boards is tough.  Perhaps an in person T can do better.

And listen... you did great when you wife came to you.  You snuggled her.  Yet somehow in all that she made a conscious choice that you are holding her accountable for.

I've been there... .I know how hard it is.  I still "relapse" from time to time.  I want to assure you life is better for all, if you make decisions from a place of viewing her as emotionally unstable... .vice making choices.

Thoughts?  Any idea why you keep looking for evidence that "it was a choice"?

FF

worriedstepmom -
If there was some way that I could leave the house, I would.  Unfortunately, my name is the only name on the mortgage, so she has no incentive to move.  If I stopped paying the mortgage, it would only hurt my credit.  I could try to sell the house but that would also be giving up a significant amount of money every month due to the interest rate that I was able to get a few years ago.  Along with that, I have a small home based business that takes up the garage and a good bit of the basement and trying to find a place to move that to is a bit challenging.  If push comes to shove, I can sell off all my equipment and sell the house and move but that is really giving up a lot and I am not at that point yet, especially considering that the business is part of what keeps me 'sane'.

FF-
I think you are correct in trying to view things and make decisions based on the premise of her emotional instability.  With that said, I don't think I am looking for evidence, I can't help but see the 'evidence'.  I am not claiming that I know or 100% believe that she s making a conscious choice, but when I am constantly seeing her act polar opposite with others, it is very difficult to not see it as a choice.  I am not so sure that I did the right thing with snuggling her.  It made me feel like crap afterwards and has sent me into a tailspin with anxiety.  It seems that making that choice just validates that she gets whatever she wants with no consequences.   

WC

Keep your "thinker" engaged in this.

What is the big difference between you and the other relationships?

Asked another way... .how does she treat her other husbands? (a way too early try at humor... but I hope it illustrates the point)

What would have been the benefit of NOT snuggling with her?

FF

I guess I would answer the first question with a  question.  What is different between her relationship with her kids and everyone else.  She treats them the same way she treats me.  The big difference there between her relationship with them and her relationship with me is authority/control.  She is rude and nasty towards her own kids, unless someone else is around but always kind and understanding towards kids outside her family.  She has much more authority/control over her own children than other children in normal day to day life. 
The benefit of not snuggling with her and instead asking her to leave would (hopefully) demonstrate that if she is going to be verbally abusive over and over (I don't want you to do anything for me, I don't need you, etc), there are consequences to that abuse.  'Turning the other cheek' over and over, validates her abusive behavior. 

WC

I sent her an email last week in response to her telling me over and over that I need to change if things are going to work.  In that email, I accepted that I need to change and noted that I have been working on that through a T for the last year.  I also stated that I feel like I am shooting in the dark with any changes I make and that there is fault found with any changes that I make.  I stated that I need her to provide me with SMART changes, meaning they need to be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and time bound.  Then I outlined an example to demonstrate what I was talking about. 
I received a response this AM and she replied that I need to have a heart change and wholeheartedly love her.  If I do that, then everything will fall into place and that if she was to make a list of SMART changes that needed to take place for that to happen, it would be a list longer than she could ever compose.  Then she went on to tell me that she is expending a lot of energy at work and claims that I pressured her to get a job and now I don't support or appreciate her working.  I get that this is how she feels but it is also a hot steaming pile of garbage.  The ONE and ONLY reason I have encouraged her to get a job is because she was not happy at home and was constantly talking about how she wants a job where she is appreciated etc.  I want her to be happy, she said that is what would make her happy and so I encouraged her to go that route.  Not supporting her?  I have helped her move furniture for her office on multiple occasions, taken time off work to take care of the kids because she has to work and a long list of other things, so how is it that I am not being supportive?  Appreciative?  How am I supposed to appreciate someone that is now working full time and doing less than they were doing before and not contributing financially?  That is rational me talking and I understand that going back and explaining the truth to her would be pouring gas on the fire. 

WC

I understand that there are financial reasons not to move.

However, if your goal is divorce, what you are doing is not going to get you there.   You are not going to meet the in-house separation criteria because you are not acting like a separated person.  You are still acting like a husband who wants his wife back.

Maybe that's who you are.  Maybe you don't really want a divorce.  If so, that's okay.

You're sending us mixed signals, so I can't imagine the combination of signals you are sending to your wife and kids.  It's going to be harder on all of them ... .which means less emotionally stable / more emotionally abusive ... .if no one really knows what is going on or what to expect.

If you aren't already, I hope you are working with your therapist to really determine what goal you want from all of this - a divorce, with the kids living with you?  A better relationship with your W?  A better relationship between your W and your children?  so that you can make a better plan to get you there.

Right now, you don't have a plan, which means you are reacting.  During my divorce, this certainly made me feel out of control and helpless and all kinds of sad and icky feelings.  Once I had a goal and a plan, it was still hard, but I could check my actions and reactions against that goal and that plan.  Over time, it got easier and easier to let go of some of the emotional baggage.

Hey WC,

I've tried to digest as much as possible but given I have the attention span of a gnat forgive me if I get some of the details wrong. I see many many many similarities with your situation and mine.

Looking at your points above regarding answer FF's question about friends vs you, you answered it explaining the effect, not the cause... .or the behaviour not the emotion. My guess is that being with you hurts her, and being away from you is frightening... .so, to feel safe she holds you by the throat at arms length. Being with you requires emotional vulnerability, or at least that's how she feels (think, her standing there stark naked, you looking her up and down inspecting her), she has UNRELENTING, TO THE  CORE SHAME and it makes her feel very very bad. When you inspect her physically, emotionally and analyse her activities it feels like just that... .Not being with you means that she will have to be responsible for herself, her emotions and her actions, this is frightening as hell for her. So... .she is stuck... .and you are stuck. e.g. she felt sad about the cat, she wanted a cuddle, you gave her a cuddle, she felt vulnerable, she pushes you away and gets you in the arms length strangle hold again. You on the other hand saw the cuddle as hope, you wanted to be vulnerable and have connection, when she pulls away you feel ashamed that you made yourself vulnerable for her and she walked away from you.

So, why does she not have the same emotional reaction with other people? She doesn't expect them to love her. Her definition or love like mine and yours says that someone who loves me should not hurt her, should be kind to her, should take care of her, should take her worts and all... .but yet here you are hurting her, being unkind to her and forcing her to do things that she doesn't want to do. Now before you get excited, there's pretty much no way on earth you couldn't have done all of the above, even the Dalai Lama would have. She has no ability to self reflect, no ability to take personal ownership and even no ability to see you as a separate entity than her.

So, she shouts at the kids for leaving mess around the place (in her mind totally justifiable, perfect parenting, the kids are intentionally doing this TO HER), the kids answer back (extremely bad hurtful child, how could he do this to me after all I have done for it, likely because of their fathers parenting), you step in to protect child (WC is attacking me after I have demonstrated perfect parenting and evil child has attacked me, how can he do this to me, he is making me feel bad, obviously he doesn't love me)... .at no point is she able to self reflect and see how she is the nexus of the conflict and in fact had she have dealt with the issue in a different way your kids may have reacted in a different way... .and if they didn't react in a different way, they are just being kids. You and the kids are extensions of her... .hurting her is like her own hand puncher her in the face. It's not so much that her definition of love is off (although may well be), it's that her emotional pain tolerance is so low that it's inevitable that you will hurt her... .thus not fitting with her definition of love. Not to mention that her own behaviours make it even more inevitable that you react negatively which again causes guilt and shame triggers which are hurtful... .

There is a lot to be said for being vulnerable, staying vulnerable and being comfortable with this situation regardless of what she does re push and pull.

Enabler

I disagree.  I'm hoping others can come along and make a deeper point here.

There are other points of view on what "turning the other cheek" shows.    I would say the critical thing is you pick a pathway and are consistent.  That is highest chance that she will understand what you are trying to "say".

So... .for you and to a more limited extent your kids share a common relationship with your wife that others don't.

Intimacy.

It's hard to wrap your head around "closeness" resulting in "farness" .  I hope that illustrates ... .somewhat... .what you are dealing with.

FF

Massive point. 

One of the reasons my life is so much better is I finally "flipped" things so that my wife reacts to me... instead of me to her.  I picked a path that I can stay on with consistency... .somedays she likes it... somedays hates it.

What I don't do is "react" to tantrums and other attempts at distraction.

FF

Validating the invalid Her saying you are the problem is not valid, so don't validate that. Not even a little. Rather, you can say, "I see that you are unhappy, and I am unhappy when we disagree, too. It makes everything harder."

JADE also known as Invalidating the valid She will see this as one big invalidation for her feeling of being alone or unhappy or frightened (all of which are valid because she does feel them). Which is pretty much how she replied.

This stuff is not easy, but what you are doing is not going to reduce conflict. I totally get why you need to respond how you did, but I think you will get better results working through your feelings with your T v. trying to rationalize with your wife.

In fact... .it is likely to keep adding fuel to the chronic conflict.

There are middle steps... .

Do you want to better understanding invalidation, validation,  validating the invalid... .etc etc?

FF

I agree that I do not have a solid plan.  As time has progressed over the past several months, I have slowly developed a plan and stuck to it, such as sticking to living in a different part of the the house and seperating things in many different areas.  For me, being very analytical and probably overthinking things, it is very difficult to decide what is best.  If the kids were not in the picture, I would have made a decision to leave a long time ago.  I do not know what is best for them.  I know the current environment is not healthy but that doesn't mean that being divorced would make things better.  I also know that they do not want us to get divorced.  There is a part of me that really does not want a divorce but at the same time I realize that in order for me to get to a place where I trust her would take significantly more than I would ever expect from her.  I don't expect her to change at all. 
Right now, with my upcoming retirement and career change, trying to juggle developing a plan for things at home is a bit much.  My plan had been, until about six months ago, to settle down right where we are at but then that rug got pulled out from under me and I am having to readjust and find a job and figure how I am going to afford everything on my own since she will not contribute anything to any of the bills. 
I am struggling a lot with the 'turning the other cheek' because I have needs to and those needs are going completely unmet.  I have probably reached out to her for a hug or to give her a hug a hundred times in the last few months.  Every single time I am pushed away and told not to touch her.  It is not like I have other moral/ethical avenues to have my own intimacy needs met.  I am not referring to sexual intimacy, but having a friend who is there and you can share life with etc.  A friend who can give you a hug.  Just someone who actually likes you.  Yes, there are the kids but they cannot meet needs on that level, nor should they, in my opinion.  Enabler described the whole cat issue very well.  I would just add to it that I also felt more empty than I already feel.  I am not a robot. 

I have read and reread all the articles on validation, invalidation, JADE, SET etc and have attempted to put those into practice.  I am not anywhere close to perfect (obviously) with any of it but I am aware of things, thus I did not reply right away to the email that she sent this morning.  I do work through things with my T when we have our sessions, however those sessions are usually 2-3 weeks apart and I feel like I just go in there and verbally/emotionally vomit.

I do not understand how outlining my need for SMART changes would be invalidating.  She states that I need to change and when I ask how, she always tells me she can't explain it to me and that I need to figure it out.  I cant figure it out.  I made a very conscious effort to state MY needs rather than saying YOU need to do this.  From my understanding, there is a big difference between saying 'I need' and 'You need'.  I also don't quite understand how I was validating the invalid.  It may have been better if I included the actual contents of the email.  By stating that I accepted that I need to change, was not agreeing with it but accepting that was how she felt and going on from there to say that in order for me to know how to change effectively, I need her to provide me with SMART changes.  Below is the actual beginning of the email.

You say our relationship is dead.  I agree.  I believe it has been that way for quite some time.  You say you want me to change.  I have attempted to figure out hor or what change it is you desire and feel like I have just been chasing my tail.  If you want change, it it nees to be smart change... .I will continute to try to be as loving as I can regardless of the fact that most of my actions will be misinterpreted and misrepresented (I understand that this part would not have been helpful and should have been reworded).  I am sorry if you find the things that I do or dont do as unkind or unloving.  That is not my intention.  I will continue to focus on myself and making myself a better person regardless of the choices that you make  or how much you want to focus on my faults and me being 100% of the problem. (Again, the majority of that sentence should probably have been eliminated).

WC

IMO, step 1 with making a plan is deciding whether to divorce or not.  This should be your number 1 goalwith your therapist - and you should tell the therapist that making this decision is your priority.

Your T needs to be asking questions designed to make you think about things, to help you see the big picture, and to brainstorm ideas on how to change how you act/react to get to a healthier dynamic.  If your T is not doing that, then you need a new T.  If they are doing that, GREAT!, just make sure the T knows what your goals are.

Your children don't get a say in whether or not you and their mom get divorced.  They are children.  They do not have the emotional or intellectual maturity to know what is best for them or for you and their mom, nor are they good at predicting future outcomes, nor should they be taking on that responsibility.  This is YOUR decision.

My dad did not have a PD, but he was extremely controlling and had bouts of emotionally abusing all of us.  My parents finally divorced when I was 17.  By then, despite how angry I was with the way my dad treated us, I had already internalized that many of those patterns were normal.  I married the wrong guy,  we both addressed conflict in very unhealthy ways, and we ended up divorced when our children were small.  I actually think it is better for the kids because they aren't growing up with the idea that it's okay to let someone rage at you.

My SD has a uBPDmom.  At our home, no one rages,  no one is controlling her, and she is free to be herself.  My H thinks divorcing her mom is the best thing he ever did for her.

But those were OUR choices.  You have to make yours.  Find a way to divorce ... .stay in a toxic marriage with your kids perhaps gaining lessons you don't want them to learn ... .or try (again) to find a way to make your marriage work.  The advice will be different depending on which of these choices you decide to make.

You've been in this defective dance with your W for a very long time.  It's time to stop that - to actively change how you act so that you can change the dynamic between you.  But what actions you need to take depend on what your ultimate goal is.

WC

The focus should be on avoiding invalidation (if time and energy is limited).  1 invalidation = 10 validations.  It really is that powerful.

The good news is... .usually keeping your mouth shut means that you avoid invalidation.

In situations where you need to speak... limiting words helps avoid it.  There is an additional benefit to limiting words... the words you use get more POWER.

It's my opinion that SMART got lost in the email.  My first reaction to reading the actual email was "good grief... .WAY TOO many words"

More words = more ammo. 

"Looking forward to your thoughts on SMART changes that your believe show the desired change.   Want to take a walk after dinner tonight?"

That's it... .the entire response I would recommend. 

Then... .go for a walk after dinner  If she comes along... all the better.

Less words... .don't invalidate.  Think deeply about if it is a choice for her.  Talk to your T about this. 

That will give you some space.

FF

I suspect that she is trying to express pure emotion... in a dysfunctional way... when she emails.

I suspect you are trying to rationally express and solve what appears to be the problem to you.

She is talking Arabic.  You are talking Chinese.

Please consider how stark the difference is between these two.

FF

I am not sure how I insinuated that the decision to divorce was the kids responsibility at all.  That was not what I was attempting to communicate that my decision is largely based on what is best for the kids and that is not an easy task nor a decision easily reversed.  I fully understand it is MY decision to make.

One of my downfalls is being too wordy. You may have noticed that virtually none of my posts are short.  It may be good news that keeping my mouth shut avoids invalidation but it seems that anything I say is invalidating and on the flip side, it seems as though she would be ok with never talking again. 

WC

Because your words have so much power to hurt her... .like knives... .actual physical pain

1 invalidation = 10 validations.  It really is that powerful.

Your wife is a nurse but you are not her patient.

She may know exactly what her patients need and be very good at working with them on good health care decisions, but what works well for her at her job may not be what you want to go along with in your marriage.

Her relationship with her patients is a situation where she knows what needs to be done, and they rely on her to help them get better, but is she taking this kind of approach with you- and are you buying into it?

The S.M.A.R.T change is used in assessments and treatment plans.

www.decisionhealth.com/static/content/articles/Facilities/SMART_Train_the_trainer.pdf

NotWendy-
My W is a nurse, however, not what most would assume.  She has a mid level management position and is in charge of hiring nurses for home health care positions.  She does not interact with patients as part of her daily routine.  She has two or three coworkers that she interacts with and they are all in a management/office type environment.  I came up with the SMART changes based off of training that I have taken focused on SMART goals.  I just slightly adjusted it as the acronym works well for many things.  As far as the approach she is taking, she has said for years that she doesn't know what to do or that she can't do anything to change anything.  I guess if I relate that to nursing, she is telling me that I have a terminal illness and there is nothing that she can do to help.  I am the only one capable of doing what it takes to cure my terminal illness. 
Enabler-
I can accept that words cause her a lot of pain.  What I have a very difficult time accepting and understanding is the endless silence.  She will say she doesn't want to talk, has nothing to say, wants to be left alone.  If I walk away calmly and respect that, weeks can and have gone by without her approaching me.  From my perspective, I gave her exactly what she requested.  Along with that, I have communicated many times, that I would like her to let me know when she is ready to talk.  It is her view that it is not her responsibility.  My words hurt her.  Her silence hurts me.  I try very hard to not be hurtful and seem to not succeed at all. 

WC

To focus on the SMART thing here.

It was actually good to mention it... .but then WAY too many words.

"let her connect the dots"... .versus trying to explain it for her.

For the "terminal illness" thing.  Let her grapple with why you haven't died yet.  It may be appropriate to ask her why... .and let her sort that out.

Just a few words... .lots of POWER. 

FF

Woodchuck,

I get it man.  It is like you and I are leading very parallel lives with nearly the same woman.  Ironically, my uBPDw is also a nurse and I as well.  I see and feel your emotion in all your posts in this thread.  You're emotionally, physically , and mentally exhausted.  Marriage isn't supposed to be a place you go to give and give and give only to rarely have your needs met or feel loved and important.  And that is where I am also.  I'm checking out.  I'm not saying you should but rather relating to your situation, having empathy and sharing my life experience.

Thru the loss of my father last year my wife was cruel, distant, and inconsiderate at best.  She never once just asked if I am okay during or since his passing.  She ran around the funeral home comforting anybody that was not me.  Anytime I am having a tough time she acts like I am so out of line to be experiencing grief.  "Oh God, I thought you were over that."  And she storms out of the room talking under her breath but loud enough for me to hear her saying hurtful things about me.  She has also since started calling me "An a**hole just like your father" since his passing as well.  We had our house appraised for a re-fi and the guy doing the appraisal had spoke about just losing his father.  My wife fell all over guy with empathetic remarks and validating his loss, his feelings, how his life must be so tough now.  I about friggin lost it.  My blood boiled as I experienced such a rush of emotion watching my wife be so kind and seemingly caring toward a total stranger when I am so starved for that from her.  It was a crossroad for me and it sounds like you also may be at crossroad in your life.

It's time to decide what you want for yourself.  Myself I decided I'm going to get old. This I know. Things will happen out of my control.(like my father's death)  Maybe I won't have the energy to constantly validate this black hole as I age.  Maybe I would like to truly relax again, or not have to watch my words so closely, or always be the patient, forgiving, always looking the other way, and forget about my needs or wants with all that I say and do.  It's exhausting.  I get it.  I used to be like form flier and the others.  I used to have endless patience but with the passing of my father and me realizing what I truly have,(or will never have) that patience evaporated.  I need more than this woman is capable of giving.  You sound like maybe you're there also.

Like the others have suggested I think it might be best to take a true appraisal of your life situation past, present and future then decide what direction you want for yourself and your kids.  I think not knowing which direction you're going causes much stress and makes us inconsistent with our behaviors.  Once you decide and commit to the direction you want to take this I think things might improve.  Or at least you'll have a goal to work toward.  Best of luck to you friend.  My heart and prayers go out to you.

My words hurt her.  Her silence hurts me.  I try very hard to not be hurtful and seem to not succeed at all.  

I don't know the answer to this. You are both hurting. When this happens you are both in victim position on the drama triangle. I don't think a pwBPD is going to let go of this perspective. It seems victim perspective is a filter for how they interpret things. I don't know what the original dynamic was in your relationship but if it was you as rescuer, caretaker, and you stopped, she would think this was hurting her on purpose- even if you are feeling hurt too.

This feeling of victim position isn't logical. In my own FOO I observed this when my elderly father got ill. He was the rescuer to BPD mom, but his condition made it not possible- he was the one who needed care. It was obvious to anyone that he didn't choose this situation- to not be able to be her rescuer. However, emotionally, BPD mother responded as if he was doing this to her on purpose. He was truly in victim position- not a relationship victim, but physically but from BPD mother's emotional perspective- she was resentful- she's in victim position and the dynamics between them changed. The rescuer/victim relationship between them was a strong bond for them. It worked that way but not the other.

I think this dynamic also relates to lastbreath's situation where your wife was not able to comfort you in your grief.

Woodchuck, in your posts you are attempting to gain consideration from your wife for things like your birthday, your wish to not have company and are disappointed each time. From my own observation, I don't think a person in victim position can get past that and consider someone else's feelings or emotional needs. When someone is hurting, they are focused inwardly. The two of you seem to be in a victim position gridlock. To change this, someone has to move out of that. That's not likely to be her.

How will you move out of this? Her silence feels hurtful to you. It's probably not about you but her focus on her own hurt and seeing you as the cause. You have to in the best way you can- see this as being about her, not you, and not let it hurt you. Self care is often a way to get past this- I don't know what you are doing for yourself- but self care can help you to shift your focus off what she is doing and on to you. If she's going to be silent anyway, there isn't much you can do about that, but you can try to manage your feelings and take your focus off it as much as possible. Maybe that will help you decide on your next step- to move away from the relationship emotionally or towards it again- whatever you choose.

I do need to work on using less words.  I saw a post on social media this weekend that stated, 'Never pass up an opportunity to shut the #$%@ up.  I need to do that more often.
Lastbreath -
Thank you for your post.  I am exhausted and I think what compounds the problems is that my job has very little satisfaction as well.  The only escape is my woodshop and I have limited time for that, although if I am honest, there are many times that I do have time but I cannot get myself to get out into the shop and get started on something.  Your W does sound very similar to mine and it (the relationship with that person) is not a fun or 'safe feeling' place to be.  I am fairly certain about what I want for myself, I am just on the fence as to what would really be best for the kids.  I do need to set some goals in regards to where I want things to go.

Notwendy -
The typical dynamic for me personally would be rescuer.  I have moved more to victim, I guess mainly because it is less exhausting than rescuing.  You can't rescue someone that doesn't want rescued.  I have avoided the victim mentality, at least in part due to believing that everything that I am experiencing is what I deserve for past failures/mistakes.  I have slowly been adjusting my thinking on that where I believe there has to be some point where we move on and enjoy life.  I understand where you are coming from as far as the victim gridlock.  I believe that I go out of my way very consistantly to take her feelings and emotional needs into consideration.  9 times out of 10, that consideration is rejected.  That, on top of my perception that my thoughts or feelings don't matter at all really makes for a tough scenario. 

WC

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